January 28, 2025 • 41 mins
You don't want to miss today's conversation with Amol Sinha, the ACLU New Jersey Executive Director. He highlights the organization's initiatives protecting civil rights. We discuss criminal justice reform, immigration, and women's reproductive rights.
• ACLU NJ’s mission
• The clemency project and its impact on mass incarceration
• Know Your Rights community education
• The importance of community activism and civic engagement
• Insights on upcoming governor elections
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:00):
Hi Janette, Hello Rachel , we just got off the interview
with Amol Sinha he is theexecutive director of the ACLU
New Jersey, which is theAmerican Civil Liberties Union
of New Jersey.
Janette (00:13):
I'm going to read off what they do.
What?
Their main topics are so it'sdemocracy and civil enga gement,
gender, sexuality andreproductive freedom,
immigration rights, racial andeconomic justice, speech,
privacy and technology.
Rachel (00:29):
And also criminal legal system reform.
Janette (00:32):
Right, oh yeah, those here at the top, yes, and we
talk about the majority of thesethings with him and we do a
kind of a high level.
Look at some of the greatthings that they have done.
And then we also talk a littlebit about the concerns with the
fire hose of issues, as I liketo say, yes, they're happening,
but what I said in the interviewwe didn't talk about is
(00:55):
regarding the free speech rightand how they're that's actually
how I know them from growing upis really just knowing that
they've protected freedom ofspeech, even when it's something
that I completely disagree withor it makes me so upset or
uncomfortable that they'realways protecting whatever side
you're on that.
You have the F Biden but thewhole F word and the town was
(01:16):
bringing charges against her andthe ACLU New Jersey got
involved and protected her rightto be able to have that sign on
her front yard.
And they've protected the rightsfor NRA for free speech with
(01:39):
that.
The point being is that they'rebipartisan.
They aren't just protecting therights of one party, they are
protecting the rights ofeveryone.
So we just wanted to make thatclear, that this is for everyone
, not just one party.
The underlying thing ishumanity and human decency right
(01:59):
.
Rachel (01:59):
Their mission is to make this government and this
country more equal, more justand more kind.
So with that, you're going tolearn a lot with this interview
with Amol Sinha.
Enjoy.
Janette (02:17):
Welcome on the show, Amol.
It's so nice to have you.
Amol Sinha (02:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
Janette (02:23):
We have been prepping for this interview and we
listened to some of your pastinterviews, and we also have
been reading up on all thethings that are going on in this
country.
That it's like a fire hose ofissues, I would say, that are
happening right now, and sowe're so glad to have you on to
talk about some of the pressingissues nationally, but also
(02:45):
statewide, because we have anelection coming up this year a
gubernatorial election, a stateassembly election and we'd like
to learn a little bit about theissues with regard to that that
we need to be paying attentionto.
But before we get started, wejust want to get a little bit of
a background about you, so canyou?
tell us a little bit about whatyou do and a little bit of a
background about you.
Rachel (03:05):
So can you tell us a little bit about what you do and
a little bit about where yougrew up?
Because since we're called Lostin.
Jersey.
We're Jersey new citizens ofNew Jersey newer, so we didn't
grow up here, but yeah.
Amol Sinha (03:16):
Well, we welcome you and thank you for your
enthusiasm about our state.
So I am the executive directorof the ACLU of New Jersey and in
that role I lead a team oflawyers and advocates and people
who care deeply about ourconstitutional rights, and so
our work is to defend andprotect and expand the
constitutional rights that areso often threatened by folks out
(03:39):
there, including presidents andother government leaders.
They're including presidentsand other government leaders.
We also are a just as much aswe are a legal organization.
We do a lot of work incommunity.
We are a legislativeorganization as well.
We do legislative advocacy, wedo community organizing and
public education, and so much ofour work is also in strategic
(04:00):
communications.
We want to make sure thatpeople are hearing the stories
of the human impact of our work.
But to the question of myrelationship to Jersey, I grew
up in Jersey.
I grew up in a town calledLawrence, new Jersey, which is
right in between Trenton andPrinceton, in Mercer County, and
I went to the public schoolsthere and I graduated and I went
(04:21):
to college and then law schoolin New York and started my
career in New York, actuallyworking for the ACLU affiliate
there, and then I went to anorganization called the
Innocence Project where I workedon criminal legal reform.
I really as a lobbyist, goingstate to state, working on
working on legislation thatwould reform the criminal legal
(04:43):
system and stop wrongfulconvictions and compensate
people who are exonerated.
And then, when this job at theACLU of New Jersey opened up, I
got a phone call about it and Icame to this role in 2017, in
the first year of the firstTrump administration.
And here we are, you know fullcircle, and I get to lead this
(05:04):
fantastic organization as thesecond Trump administration
starts.
Rachel (05:09):
Has there been a lot of changes in the organization?
I know there's been some growth, but has there been a lot of
changes in the organization?
Has grown pretty dramatically.
We've more than doubled in size.
Amol Sinha (05:28):
We've almost tripled in budget.
We have a lot moreprofessionalization.
We used to be, for instance, acommunications department of one
person when I started, andwe're now a comms team of five.
And we used to have one personon our policy team and now the
policy team is six people.
We used to have just a coupleof lawyers in our legal
(05:50):
department and now we have, Ithink, over a dozen lawyers in
our legal department, and sothere's been a steady growth and
we are taking on more issuesthan ever before.
We're truly a multi-issue,multi-tactic organization doing
more work simultaneously than weever had in our history.
Rachel (06:10):
Yes, it does seem like the tentacles go out to many
different issues, whereasgrowing up I actually saw that
you were the ACLU when you werein New York for Suffolk County
and I grew up in Suffolk County.
Amol Sinha (06:20):
Oh, is that right yeah.
Rachel (06:33):
Where in Suffolk did you grow up?
So I grew up in the MelvilleDix Hills area and when I heard
you speaking about it a bit itwas very segregated.
but the district the schooldistrict that I went to, Half
Hollow Hills, was veryintegrated.
I mean, it pulled from so manydifferent communities, including
Wheatley Heights, Melville, DixHills.
It pulled from so manydifferent communities, including
Wheatley Heights, Melville, DixHills.
And that was one of the thingsI loved about growing up there
is that, you know, even thoughit didn't really everyone didn't
really get together till highschool, we eventually did all
(06:54):
get together.
Amol Sinha (06:55):
You know.
That reminds me of where I grewup too, in Lawrence, new Jersey
, where, you know, lawrence, asI said before, sits right
between Trenton and Princeton.
Rachel (07:04):
Yeah.
Amol Sinha (07:04):
And I always had this like feeling of injustice
in the world, based on where Igrew up, right, like I felt like
it was.
There was an injustice in thefact that you could drive 15
minutes from one city of Trentonto the town of and you can
experience a microcosm of ofsegregation in the world you can
experience a microcosm ofsegregation in the world.
Trenton, of course, is one ofthe most ignored capital cities
(07:28):
in the country where there isyou know there is rampant
poverty.
It's largely a black community.
It has a school district thathas that's been underfunded for
so many years, and then youdrive 15 minutes and you're in
the middle of Princeton, whichis one of the most affluent zip
codes in the country.
(07:48):
It's a largely white community.
It's got a high school that hasan art gallery inside of it and
it has one of the biggest ratesand no shade on Princeton.
It's wonderful, and it's gotone of the best Ivy League
placements coming out of theirhigh school in the country.
And so it's.
It always struck me growing up,even though I didn't have the
words for it, I didn't know youknow the the origins of it, but
(08:10):
I always felt the sense thatsomething was wrong about that
situation.
Growing up as a South Asian kid, the son of immigrants from
India, and sort of notunderstanding structural racism,
I did not realize that where Ifell on this sort of unjust
racial hierarchy that we have asa country, and I wanted to
(08:31):
explore that a little bit as Igrew up.
Janette (08:35):
You found yourself in the right job path, though.
I mean you landed in the rightplace to try to make a change.
You know and to that effect, Iwas telling Rachel that we want
to highlight the great thingsthat you have been a part of.
I know, for example we'retalking about the Clemency
Project is something that wewanted to talk about.
Amol Sinha (08:56):
So we have been on the front lines of leading
criminal legal reform in NewJersey for a very long time and
in some ways we've been anational leader as to criminal
legal reform in the UnitedStates.
Well before I started, ourorganization had set a goal to
end mass incarceration in NewJersey, and we said that that
(09:18):
meant to us at the time reducingour prison population by at
least 50 percent, and wearticulated how we were going to
do it and what some of ourgoals were in multiple different
categories.
And we decided to go forwardwith this goal and include
things like cannabislegalization, for instance,
inside of it.
(09:38):
And we were one of the leadersof the cannabis legalization
movement in New Jersey andthankfully we were able to pass
cannabis legalization from aracial justice point of view in
New Jersey, ending the long waron cannabis that had existed in
New Jersey, reducing the numberof arrests by more than 30,000
per year.
(09:58):
Then, when the pandemic hit,there was a moment where we were
all kind of scrambling andtrying to figure out what our
priorities would be in this newnormal that we were all
experiencing.
So just as we were figuring outhow to do our work as an
organization, we were alsothinking about how we contribute
to the moment, and one of thethings that we decided at that
time was that we were going toadvocate for people who probably
(10:22):
were not on the priority listwhen it came to the government's
priorities right, and thegovernment had to think about
kids in school or people innursing homes or front lines
workers.
They probably were not thinkingabout incarcerated people, and
so people who are incarceratedare so often kept in these
closed quarters where the thingsthat we could have done on the
(10:42):
outside to protect ourselvesweren't available to them on the
inside.
So you know, where we couldsocially distance or wear gloves
and masks and hand sanitizer,those things were not available
to people who are incarcerated.
And New Jersey at one point hadthe worst rate of death in its
prisons as a result of COVID inthe country, and we had more
(11:02):
deaths than New York,massachusetts, connecticut and
Pennsylvania combined, and so weknew that we had to do
something.
Rachel (11:09):
Do we have more people?
Sorry to interrupt.
Amol Sinha (11:11):
No.
Do we have more peopleincarcerated, percentage-wise,
than they do.
No, in fact, we have less, andthat was a disaster that was
happening, and so one of thethings that we decided was that
we would use all the tools inour toolbox, including
litigation and communicationsand legislative advocacy, to
(11:32):
reduce the prison population,because we learned from both
public health experts andcriminal justice experts that
the only way to curb the spreadof the disease inside prisons is
to reduce the prison populationso that people are safer while
they're inside and people wholeave are able to properly
self-isolate.
And, long story short, we wereable to pass this legislation
(11:54):
called the Public HealthEmergency Credit, which
basically reduced the sentencesof people who were set to be
released within a year and sothese are people Right Instead
(12:15):
of getting them out and wherethey can properly self-isolate
and potentially save their lives.
And so we were able to, andwe've, overall, reduced our
prison population from from 2011to 2022 by more than 50 percent
.
Janette (12:48):
Right, and that's incredible.
You're burying the lead on thisstory, though is that?
Amol Sinha (12:52):
Yeah, tell me.
Janette (12:53):
Crime, crime rate has actually gone down, right, I
mean that's absolutely true.
Rachel (12:58):
Well, I think that's that you should lead with that,
because people who are who areagainst this idea and can't wrap
their head around.
You know, letting people out ofjail, you know, either early or
at all, it's good to lead withthat.
That well.
It didn't impact safety at all.
Amol Sinha (13:15):
That's absolutely true.
We've seen that we can bothdecarcerate our prisons and
advance public safety at thesame time, and crime rates
across all major crimecategories have gone down.
Janette (13:27):
There's so much we want to talk to you about, but I
just want to tie this in to thegovernor's election and assembly
is that I think that a lot ofthe platforms are going to be
talking about reducing crime andusing this as a kind of a spin.
And I've that a lot of theplatforms are going to be
talking about reducing crime andthe you know and using this as
a kind of a spin.
And I've seen a couple ofthings online talking about,
specifically about during COVID,their release of, and there's a
(13:47):
big spin on it, but they don'tdig into it.
They're just saying that you'rereleasing a bunch of prisoners
and putting and putting them onthe streets to reoffend.
You know and I think thatthat's something that people
need to take a look at when theyare picking their governor's
choices Are they?
Are they giving you the truedata?
Amol Sinha (14:03):
And that leads me to talking about the clemency
project, which is, you know,which is a gubernatorial power.
Like clemency is the idea thatpeople who are executive leaders
, whether it's the president orthe governor have this authority
to reduce sentences, grantpardons and commutations of
people who are eitherincarcerated or out, and rid
them of their criminalconsequences.
(14:27):
And thinking about the clemencyproject at the start of Governor
Murphy's second term, when wewere like, ok, we have this
second term progressive Democratas governor, what is it that we
need to see in this moment?
And?
And we decided that we weregoing to start building this
project that would encourageGovernor Murphy to take a
(14:48):
categorical approach to clemency.
That is, you know, let's notwait for the politically
connected person to make theirway to your desk.
Let's find the people thatshould no longer be incarcerated
as a result of the criteriathat led to their incarceration
in the first place, and so useit as a decarceration tool
rather than just the tool ofmercy.
(15:08):
We were able to articulate thecategories of people that we
wanted to target, and thosecategories included survivors of
domestic violence and sextrafficking who had attacked
their abusers and, secondly, acategory of people who are
incarcerated as a result of atrial penalty.
So they had a plea offer, sayit was five years, decided to
(15:33):
reject that plea offer and go totrial, as is their
constitutional right, gotconvicted at trial and got 25
years.
Rachel (15:41):
I hadn't known about that until I read that and I
didn't realize that that couldhappen.
If you get a plea for fiveyears and clearly they feel it's
OK, five years is really enough, then to when you go through
trial and you get convicted thatyou get 25 years, it just seems
rather.
Janette (16:00):
That's why they always tell you in all these crime
shows take the plea, you know,because if it goes to trial
you're looking at, you know, andthat just so never made sense.
You're like you have to goahead and kind of basically
admit guilt to take the pill,the plea, when you want to try
to fight it.
Is it potentially going tochange with the next governor?
Rachel (16:21):
Like can they?
Can they, you know, you knowreverse it?
Can I get rid of it?
Amol Sinha (16:25):
The good thing is that they can't undo the actions
that the governor has alreadytaken.
So, for instance, we have threeclients walk out of prison a
few weeks ago, right beforeChristmas three women who had
been incarcerated for decadesbecause they had attacked their
abusers in self-defense and as aresult of their trauma, and it
was a remarkable moment and thegovernor has taken perhaps the
(16:48):
broadest articulation ofclemency in the country and it's
really powerful.
So thankfully, the nextgovernor can't send those women
back to prison, but what we arehoping for is that the next
governor embraces clemencyearlier in their term and more
frequently, and so we want tocontinue the trend of using
(17:09):
clemency as a rule rather thanan exception.
Rachel (17:13):
And an ongoing process, rather than waiting for when
they're about to leave officeand they quickly sign some
things, or when they, asPresident Trump did when he got
into office, do that.
Janette (17:25):
Well, I want to move on to immigration, but just before
we do for the average person, Ihad someone reach out to me
saying that I know you'retalking to them all and they
were like, are they looking forparalegals or anything to help
out?
Like, is there that I could dothis on the side?
You know, to be like a, youknow, feel like I'm part of what
is there for the average personin this particular area, and
(17:49):
then we can talk about that ineach one of these different
areas that they could do.
Amol Sinha (17:54):
So there, I'm so appreciative of the question
because we could use a lot ofsupport in a different number of
areas.
One is, first of all, we arealways working in community
spaces.
So when, when we do, forinstance, know your rights
trainings or things like that,if folks want to organize a know
your rights training for theircommunity, we're happy to come
(18:16):
and participate in that and tagteam with a community leader.
We do hire occasionally, and sopeople should keep an eye out
on our careers page for jobpostings, and there's going to
be a few coming down the line.
And then for folks who areparalegals or attorneys, we
often partner with law firms onpro bono work, and so when we
(18:40):
have litigation happening,oftentimes we partner with a law
firm.
That gives us a lot ofresources and support for
leading that work.
So there are many differententry points into the work.
But then there's also just thenot just, but the activism that
is so important, and so we arealways looking for people to
call their lawmakers to engagewith folks on why it is that
(19:04):
they need to see progressive orcivil rights affirming policies
in action in their communities.
And so right now we areprioritizing something called
the Immigrant Trust Act and wewant to make sure that lawmakers
in New Jersey hear from theirconstituents that we need to
pass the Immigrant Trust Act sothat our communities are
protected.
Rachel (19:23):
So what is the Immigrant Trust Act?
Amol Sinha (19:26):
So the Immigrant Trust Act I'm glad you asked is
a bill that would basicallycreate a firewall between local
law enforcement and federalimmigration enforcement.
So when the Trump administrationis out there saying that they
are going to deploy the biggestmass deportation scheme in US
history, states have to be theones to say no, you're not, and
(19:50):
and the way they would do thatthe Trump administration would
do that is by utilizing stateand local resources to go after
communities here, and so we needa law that prevents the law
enforcement and other agenciesfrom being complicit in this
mass deportation scheme.
It does a number of things,including that firewall, but it
(20:11):
also creates a pathway to whatwe're calling data minimization,
where we don't need to collectcertain pieces of information
about people and hold on to themif they're signing up for an
after school program or for alibrary card, so like.
Do we really need to collectinformation about immigration
status or somebody's socialsecurity number or their gender
identity when we know that thatinformation isn't actually
(20:35):
useful in the processing ofwhatever service?
the government is providing andso that way we're not holding on
to things that we don't need.
That could make peoplevulnerable, should the federal
government decide to go afterthem.
Janette (20:48):
Do you know, within this upcoming election, the
governor's race is that kind ofone of the big issues of this.
You know, information Act orwhatever it is about our own
personal information, or isthere?
Amol Sinha (21:02):
It should be, and so I would love to hear from the
gubernatorial candidates abouthow they feel about the
Immigrant Trust Act, whatthey're going to do to stand up
for immigrant communities andother vulnerable communities.
Look, it's by design that NewJersey has an election after a
presidential election, and we'reonly one of two states it's us
in Virginia that hadgubernatorial elections in 2025.
(21:25):
And so we need to hear from ourcandidates what they're going
to do to stand up for the peoplethat are going to be attacked
by the Trump administration,because we know that there's
going to be a lot of damage anda lot of harm.
Janette (21:38):
Regarding the protection, the immediate
protection, of you say, let'sjust say that some districts, or
can it be divvied up?
So I mean we just it's also inthe air this whole immigration
thing, and you hear ISIS.
Now they're talking, they cango into schools and churches and
you're just like, well, wait,wait is the high school.
Are they going to have like a,you know a SWAT team?
(21:59):
Go in to get I don't know astudent or a worker or a staff?
You know what exactly?
Rachel (22:05):
Or like deploying the National Guard has been thrown
out in order to enact.
Janette (22:11):
What is the?
Rachel (22:11):
vision.
It's kind of hard for us toimagine, as New Jersey residents
, what this could look like, andalso how do we protect our
neighbors.
Amol Sinha (22:21):
So let me just say that the chaos is the point
right.
They want to throw chaos andmake every community live in
fear, and so all of the thingsthat you're talking about are
absolutely true that the Trumpadministration is giving us
announcements without a lot ofinformation or specificity about
what it is that they're goingto do.
And so when they say thatthey're going to go after
(22:42):
birthright citizenship and wesaw this executive order from
the Trump administration, one ofthe first ones and, by the way,
within hours of that executiveorder being signed, the ACLU
sued and we have a lawsuit rightnow saying that no, a president
cannot rewrite the Constitutionof the United States.
This is a right that isenshrined in the 14th Amendment,
and we are going to stand upfor for the communities that are
(23:06):
going to be impacted by thisexecutive order, and we're not
going to sit down unless we hearfrom a court that the right is
protected and it's going to behere to stay.
And so the Trump administrationis going after and pulling out
whatever strings they canbecause either it gives them a
clout in their base or becausethey are seeing this as
(23:27):
something that is beneficial tothem in terms of power.
And so when we hear about massdeportation, first of all we
should take Trump at his wordright that he's going to try to
deploy the biggest massdeportation scheme in US history
.
And what that will look like, itvaries from community to
community, but it means thingslike raids in workplaces, the
(23:47):
sensitive locations policy thatyou just cited.
They're saying that they'regoing to go into our schools and
our churches to go after people, places that people saw as
sanctuaries before.
What a traumatic experiencethat would be for children right
to not only be arrested andbasically taken into immigration
detention, but to view theirclassmates being pulled out of
(24:10):
the classroom by SWAT team stylelaw enforcement that are coming
in to run raids in our schools.
What a horrifying thought, andso we need to push back on
everything that we are seeing,and that's why, you know, at the
ACLU, with our partners, wefiled so far in day three of the
Trump administration, we filedthree legal actions against them
(24:32):
, and during the first Trumpadministration, we had filed 430
legal actions against thatadministration, the most in our
history and we are ready andprepared to do it again if we
need to.
Janette (24:46):
Well, it makes you understand how much work there
is for lawyers right now.
They used to say don't go tolaw school, there's so many
lawyers, it's like at this pointit's like I think there's a lot
of work out there for you,which you know, especially in
constitutional law.
Yeah, immigration law.
Rachel (25:03):
Well, it's interesting because you're saying the 14th
Amendment and you know there'sprecedent, and then we look at
Roe v Wade being overturned andthere was precedent.
It's very.
Amol Sinha (25:33):
It's terrifying to say that abortion is no longer a
constitutionally protectedright at the federal level, but
that's why I think the statesneed to really lead, and so, as
we're seeing sort of thispatchwork on abortion of states,
some of which have criminalizedabortion, some of which have
severely restricted it, we needstates like New Jersey to really
(25:54):
shine.
New Jersey has one of thestrongest codifications of
abortion rights in the country,and our governor, during his
State of the State address,talked about stockpiling
mifepristone, which is theabortion drug, and he talked
about advancing abortion accessfor all, regardless of whether
you're underinsured or uninsured, and that's really powerful.
So we need to make sure thatstates like New Jersey build
(26:18):
what we're calling a firewallfor freedom, that we enact
policies that will protect ourresidents and really show to the
nation what a state can do inthe face of an authoritarian
presidency.
Janette (26:31):
What is the jeopardy that you see at this moment?
That the federal government,could, you know, change where we
are in New Jersey, ourstandings and our rights as
women?
Amol Sinha (26:42):
So one of the things that I think the federal
government is going to try to dois a nationwide abortion ban,
and that's why it's so importantto have states say we're not
going to stand for it.
And a nationwide abortion bancould mean that it is no longer
allowed at the federal level andstates will continue to have to
(27:02):
either enshrine it in theirconstitutions or find ways to
make sure that it is protected.
And so in New Jersey, whereabortion has already been
interpreted to be a fundamentalconstitutional right, we are
pretty squarely safe fundamentalconstitutional right we are
pretty squarely safe, and thatis something that I'm very proud
of.
But that's not to say that thefederal government isn't going
(27:24):
to try to go after, chip away atthe right, even in a state like
New Jersey.
So we have to be constantlyvigilant and make sure that
we're doing whatever we can toprotect the right to an abortion
here and here in our state andand demonstrate that the public
(27:44):
really wants it Right.
Like every poll that I've seen,the vast majority, the vast
majority of Americans believe inthe right to an abortion.
Abortion we're talking aboutlike 75, 80 percent of people
that believe in the right to anabortion, and so it is.
(28:06):
It doesn't even make politicalsense for President Trump to try
to pursue an abortion ban rightnow.
So not only is it, is it thewrong thing to do because it
hurts our rights.
It's the wrong thing to dobecause it doesn't really get
you any political points either.
Janette (28:14):
Right, right, right.
Rachel, you brought upsomething about funding,
reducing funding that I was I'mcurious about across the board
on all of these issues.
How is that going to affectyour organization?
Amol Sinha (28:27):
we are solely dependent on private foundations
and individual donors.
The vast majority of ourfunding comes from individual
donors, everyday people thatbelieve in the work that we do,
and so when federal programs arecut, it won't affect the ACLU.
(28:50):
However, it will affect othergroups that we partner with,
pretty often includingorganizations like Planned
Parenthood, partner with prettyoften including organizations
like Planned Parenthood, and wewant to make sure that
organizations like PlannedParenthood are thriving, and so
we're pushing back on attemptsto defund Planned Parenthood or
cut away at abortion funding.
One of the things that is notexactly policy but we also are
(29:15):
afraid of should be vigilantabout rising and escalating
rhetoric.
So there was a moment where theACLU presented before the
Supreme Court of the UnitedStates on a case regarding
gender affirming care fortransgender youth in Tennessee.
We had sent the first, chaseStrangio, who's a lawyer with
(29:37):
the ACLU at the national officehe's my colleague who was the
first transgender person toappear before the Supreme Court
of the United States and rightafter his argument, elon Musk
tweeted defund the ACLU Now.
Question mark as to whether thatcan actually happen, because we
don't get any funding from, butthe message is out there, right
(29:59):
, and there was an increase inthe sorts of hate that we get on
a regular basis from people.
But you know, the message is outthere and I think that the
government is going to try to goafter organizations like mine
that are considered to beadversarial to their priorities.
And we saw a bill comingthrough the Congress trying to
(30:20):
go after the tax-exempt statusof nonprofit organizations and
thankfully that didn't move.
But you know, I imagine that abill like that will come back at
some point in the near future,do you?
Rachel (30:31):
feel that you need to change, or the ACLU has to adapt
the conversation and maybechange some of the language that
you know progressives have beenusing because of President
Trump winning this election onhis rhetoric and his stirring
people up to be afraid ofcertain things.
(30:51):
Do you feel that it's the waythat maybe we have all been
communicating our support forsome of these issues is maybe
not working and not winning thehearts?
Janette (31:03):
and minds of the entire population.
And it's only getting 50percent less than 50 percent
Right.
Amol Sinha (31:10):
Yeah.
So I'll say this Look our jobat the ACLU not to elect
Democratic leaders, right?
We are a nonpartisanorganization and we've had the
same principles for 105 years,and I like to say that we
outlive any one political moment, and so I am all for meeting
people where they're at andtrying to build common ground
(31:33):
and consensus, and maybe thatmeans talking about it in a way
that people can relate.
However, you know what thatdoesn't mean is means talking
about it in a way that peoplecan relate.
However, you know what thatdoesn't mean is undermining our
principles in any way.
We're still going to defend therights of undocumented people.
We're still going to try toreduce our prison population.
We're going to continue toadvocate for people who are
seeking an abortion.
So we're going to continue todo the same work that we've been
(31:55):
doing for 105 years, and I dothink that the population is
with us on a lot of these ideas.
You know the general populationbelieves in proven solutions to
immigration, right?
Even if you can argue thatthere is a problem with
immigration in the United States, it's not that the public wants
(32:16):
to deport 20 million people.
What they want are things thatare common sense, proven
solutions like pathways tocitizenship.
They don't want to be cruel totheir neighbors.
We did some polling around ourclemency project and people
believe in clemency as a way toend mass incarceration.
They believe in clemency as atool of compassion, and so when
(32:38):
you really ask the public thequestions, the right questions,
they will give you answers thatare consistent with the work of
the ACLU.
Janette (32:54):
I really do believe that and I think that we all
have varying you know feelingsabout all these issues, and I do
think that's why you see thatyou're fear and we're not going
to stand for it.
Amol Sinha (33:46):
And so the kindness and compassion piece of this is
is incredibly important.
It's it's something that isgoing to be people powered and
driven from the ground up andnot brought from Washington or
from the president's office.
Janette (33:59):
I like how you said that yeah, yeah, Okay.
So, as we wind out, I want toask you though before is there
anything, a message that youwant to give to our listeners?
That seems to be is pressingfor you.
Amol Sinha (34:15):
So I would say this join the work, and what I mean
by that is there are so manyorganizations out there in New
Jersey and beyond that are doingtremendous work on immigrants
rights, on abortion access, onracial justice, on voting rights
and democracy.
We are one of them, and we havea lot of partner organizations
as well.
Support the work however youcan.
(34:35):
If you are able to support itwith money, please donate
whenever you can to whatevercause you believe in it is
crucial.
We started this conversation bytalking about how the ACLU has
grown.
We have grown and we've grownnationwide no-transcript calling
(35:39):
your.
Janette (35:40):
You know your staying active by calling your lawmakers
vote.
Right.
Pay attention to what the whatthe governors are you know
standing for, yeah, and, andmaybe you know, have a know your
rights event in your town.
And what else we got?
Amol Sinha (35:59):
Look, being civically engaged is so
important, making sure thatlawmakers are hearing from you.
One of the reasons why peoplefeel a little defeated and
feeling a sense of apathy rightnow is because there has been a
gradual shift in our politicsand people feel like what's the
point?
Right, I get it, I understand.
Janette (36:19):
Apathetic apathy is like set in, you know you feel
hopeless.
Rachel (36:22):
You're like that we're in this again.
Janette (36:25):
Well you know I was listening to someone today
talking about that, saying thatthat is somewhat.
The strategy is to just get youto a place of exhaustion to
where you just are, like I giveup.
Amol Sinha (36:38):
Stephen Miller, who's one of the senior advisors
to the president, actually saidthat out loud.
He said that their strategyfrom day one is going to be to
blitz the public and theorganizations that are pushing
back, and they're not going tobe able to handle it.
We're going to just come afteryou with one thing after another
, after another, in order tooverwhelm you and and you know,
(36:59):
for the past year, the ACLUwe've been scenario planning for
this moment and trying tofigure out how we were going to
respond Should there be a Trumppresidency.
Rachel (37:08):
Were you surprised by the outcome of the election or
no?
Amol Sinha (37:11):
I'll say that I wasn't surprised by the outcome.
I was.
I was surprised that it was sodecisive.
You know I was expecting it tobe a drawn out process, but the
fact that he won the electoralvote and the popular vote, you
(37:33):
know, was a little bit of asurprise to me.
But, like I said, we had beenpreparing for either scenario
because we saw either one as apotential reality.
Rachel (37:44):
Yep Right, yep Right.
Janette said we'd like to ask aquestion about what you love
about New Jersey, but beforethat I wanted to ask with your
work all these years to helppeople and make this world, this
country, more equal, more justand more kind, what do you do to
(38:04):
unload any stress that you haveat the end of the day?
Do you meditate?
Do you dance to music?
What do you do?
Amol Sinha (38:15):
So right now, my wife and I, we have have a small
child.
I've got a 16 month old baby athome, um.
So that's a lot of work but alot of stress relief and a lot
of fun as well at the same time.
So we do family dance parties,sometimes in the house, which is
really fun, but no, generallystress relief for me is being
with family and friends, working, working out a little bit and
(38:38):
trying to center myself in thework right.
So the work to me is it can bestressful, I will say, but the
reason I work at the ACLU isbecause I get to come to work
every day at a workplace thataligns with my values and it
allows me to live my values on aday-to-day basis and that, to
me, is centering in a way that Ithink a lot of people search
(39:00):
for throughout their careers.
So I'm very grateful.
Janette (39:04):
That's wonderful Well all right, now you have the
really the most importantquestion what do you love?
What is something that youthink about that you love about
New Jersey?
Amol Sinha (39:14):
That's a great question.
Look, I love so much aboutJersey.
This is my home, this is whereI've spent most of my life, it's
where my wife is from and ourfamilies are rooted here.
What I love about the state isthat New Jersey is filled with
fighters, and when I talkedabout forging a firewall for
freedom, I don't mean thatlightly.
(39:34):
What I mean is that we're goingto take every tool that we have
to insulate New Jersey from theworst instincts of the Trump
administration and anybody elsethat tries to come after us, and
so I'm grateful that we haveleaders like our attorney
general and our governor thatare out there saying the same
thing, that they're going todefend New Jerseyans and protect
our values.
(39:55):
And to me, what that means isthere's this unique brand of
grit that New Jerseyans have,and it's one of the most diverse
states in the country, one ofthe most populated states in the
country, one of the mostimmigrant, dense states in the
country.
It has so much richness and somuch going for it.
You know, I dare any otherstate or any other federal
(40:16):
leader to come after us to saythat we shouldn't live our
values the way we do, and itgives me a lot of pride to be in
the state that has given me somuch and to be a leader in the
state that is fighting for thecivil rights and liberties for
every single New Jerseyan outthere.
And lastly, the pizza.
There is nothing that comparesto New Jersey pizza.
(40:38):
I'm on like a personal missionto try to find the best pizza.
Well, they're all the best right.
Janette (40:45):
There's so many different kinds.
Is there a particular place youfind yourself going to over and
over, Even if it's not just thedefault?
What's your default pizza spot?
Amol Sinha (40:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's actually very close to Montclair
.
It's a place called PizzaTerminal in Verona.
Giving them a shout out, I'venever been there.
It's great.
They have something called theBrooklyn Pie, which is a
Sicilian pie with caramelizedonions on it, which is one of
the best foods that I've had ina long time.
Rachel (41:13):
That's what I'm doing this weekend.
Thank you, we'll pop in thereand get some pizza, that's what.
Janette (41:16):
I'm doing this weekend, thank you, We'll pop in there
and get some pizza.
Rachel (41:19):
That's great.
Janette (41:20):
Well, it's been a pleasure to talk with you and to
get some perspective on whatwe're going to be seeing for
this next year if not the nextfour years and possibly some
ways that we can help, and alsowhat to keep an eye out for when
we are going to go to thevoting booth, and I guess it's
November and we're grateful forall the work.
Rachel (41:40):
Are going to go to the voting booth, and I guess yeah,
and we're grateful for all thework you've done and you
continue to do, we really, wereally are Thank you.
Amol Sinha (41:47):
Thank you so much.
It's going to take all of us,so I'm grateful for you to for
doing the work that you do, sothank you so much.
Janette (41:52):
Well, thank you Thank you, thank you.
Rachel (41:57):
This podcast is produced by Rachel Martens and Janette
Afsharian.
Thank you, Amol lost.
Hi Janette, Hello Rachel , we just got off the interview
with Amol Sinha he is theexecutive director of the ACLU
New Jersey, which is theAmerican Civil Liberties Union
of New Jersey.
Janette (00:13):
I'm going to read off what they do.
What?
Their main topics are so it'sdemocracy and civil enga gement,
gender, sexuality andreproductive freedom,
immigration rights, racial andeconomic justice, speech,
privacy and technology.
Rachel (00:29):
And also criminal legal system reform.
Janette (00:32):
Right, oh yeah, those here at the top, yes, and we
talk about the majority of thesethings with him and we do a
kind of a high level.
Look at some of the greatthings that they have done.
And then we also talk a littlebit about the concerns with the
fire hose of issues, as I liketo say, yes, they're happening,
but what I said in the interviewwe didn't talk about is
(00:55):
regarding the free speech rightand how they're that's actually
how I know them from growing upis really just knowing that
they've protected freedom ofspeech, even when it's something
that I completely disagree withor it makes me so upset or
uncomfortable that they'realways protecting whatever side
you're on that.
You have the F Biden but thewhole F word and the town was
(01:16):
bringing charges against her andthe ACLU New Jersey got
involved and protected her rightto be able to have that sign on
her front yard.
And they've protected the rightsfor NRA for free speech with
(01:39):
that.
The point being is that they'rebipartisan.
They aren't just protecting therights of one party, they are
protecting the rights ofeveryone.
So we just wanted to make thatclear, that this is for everyone
, not just one party.
The underlying thing ishumanity and human decency right
(01:59):
.
Rachel (01:59):
Their mission is to make this government and this
country more equal, more justand more kind.
So with that, you're going tolearn a lot with this interview
with Amol Sinha.
Enjoy.
Janette (02:17):
Welcome on the show, Amol.
It's so nice to have you.
Amol Sinha (02:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
Janette (02:23):
We have been prepping for this interview and we
listened to some of your pastinterviews, and we also have
been reading up on all thethings that are going on in this
country.
That it's like a fire hose ofissues, I would say, that are
happening right now, and sowe're so glad to have you on to
talk about some of the pressingissues nationally, but also
(02:45):
statewide, because we have anelection coming up this year a
gubernatorial election, a stateassembly election and we'd like
to learn a little bit about theissues with regard to that that
we need to be paying attentionto.
But before we get started, wejust want to get a little bit of
a background about you, so canyou?
tell us a little bit about whatyou do and a little bit of a
background about you.
Rachel (03:05):
So can you tell us a little bit about what you do and
a little bit about where yougrew up?
Because since we're called Lostin.
Jersey.
We're Jersey new citizens ofNew Jersey newer, so we didn't
grow up here, but yeah.
Amol Sinha (03:16):
Well, we welcome you and thank you for your
enthusiasm about our state.
So I am the executive directorof the ACLU of New Jersey and in
that role I lead a team oflawyers and advocates and people
who care deeply about ourconstitutional rights, and so
our work is to defend andprotect and expand the
constitutional rights that areso often threatened by folks out
(03:39):
there, including presidents andother government leaders.
They're including presidentsand other government leaders.
We also are a just as much aswe are a legal organization.
We do a lot of work incommunity.
We are a legislativeorganization as well.
We do legislative advocacy, wedo community organizing and
public education, and so much ofour work is also in strategic
(04:00):
communications.
We want to make sure thatpeople are hearing the stories
of the human impact of our work.
But to the question of myrelationship to Jersey, I grew
up in Jersey.
I grew up in a town calledLawrence, new Jersey, which is
right in between Trenton andPrinceton, in Mercer County, and
I went to the public schoolsthere and I graduated and I went
(04:21):
to college and then law schoolin New York and started my
career in New York, actuallyworking for the ACLU affiliate
there, and then I went to anorganization called the
Innocence Project where I workedon criminal legal reform.
I really as a lobbyist, goingstate to state, working on
working on legislation thatwould reform the criminal legal
(04:43):
system and stop wrongfulconvictions and compensate
people who are exonerated.
And then, when this job at theACLU of New Jersey opened up, I
got a phone call about it and Icame to this role in 2017, in
the first year of the firstTrump administration.
And here we are, you know fullcircle, and I get to lead this
(05:04):
fantastic organization as thesecond Trump administration
starts.
Rachel (05:09):
Has there been a lot of changes in the organization?
I know there's been some growth, but has there been a lot of
changes in the organization?
Has grown pretty dramatically.
We've more than doubled in size.
Amol Sinha (05:28):
We've almost tripled in budget.
We have a lot moreprofessionalization.
We used to be, for instance, acommunications department of one
person when I started, andwe're now a comms team of five.
And we used to have one personon our policy team and now the
policy team is six people.
We used to have just a coupleof lawyers in our legal
(05:50):
department and now we have, Ithink, over a dozen lawyers in
our legal department, and sothere's been a steady growth and
we are taking on more issuesthan ever before.
We're truly a multi-issue,multi-tactic organization doing
more work simultaneously than weever had in our history.
Rachel (06:10):
Yes, it does seem like the tentacles go out to many
different issues, whereasgrowing up I actually saw that
you were the ACLU when you werein New York for Suffolk County
and I grew up in Suffolk County.
Amol Sinha (06:20):
Oh, is that right yeah.
Rachel (06:33):
Where in Suffolk did you grow up?
So I grew up in the MelvilleDix Hills area and when I heard
you speaking about it a bit itwas very segregated.
but the district the schooldistrict that I went to, Half
Hollow Hills, was veryintegrated.
I mean, it pulled from so manydifferent communities, including
Wheatley Heights, Melville, DixHills.
It pulled from so manydifferent communities, including
Wheatley Heights, Melville, DixHills.
And that was one of the thingsI loved about growing up there
is that, you know, even thoughit didn't really everyone didn't
really get together till highschool, we eventually did all
(06:54):
get together.
Amol Sinha (06:55):
You know.
That reminds me of where I grewup too, in Lawrence, new Jersey
, where, you know, lawrence, asI said before, sits right
between Trenton and Princeton.
Rachel (07:04):
Yeah.
Amol Sinha (07:04):
And I always had this like feeling of injustice
in the world, based on where Igrew up, right, like I felt like
it was.
There was an injustice in thefact that you could drive 15
minutes from one city of Trentonto the town of and you can
experience a microcosm of ofsegregation in the world you can
experience a microcosm ofsegregation in the world.
Trenton, of course, is one ofthe most ignored capital cities
(07:28):
in the country where there isyou know there is rampant
poverty.
It's largely a black community.
It has a school district thathas that's been underfunded for
so many years, and then youdrive 15 minutes and you're in
the middle of Princeton, whichis one of the most affluent zip
codes in the country.
(07:48):
It's a largely white community.
It's got a high school that hasan art gallery inside of it and
it has one of the biggest ratesand no shade on Princeton.
It's wonderful, and it's gotone of the best Ivy League
placements coming out of theirhigh school in the country.
And so it's.
It always struck me growing up,even though I didn't have the
words for it, I didn't know youknow the the origins of it, but
(08:10):
I always felt the sense thatsomething was wrong about that
situation.
Growing up as a South Asian kid, the son of immigrants from
India, and sort of notunderstanding structural racism,
I did not realize that where Ifell on this sort of unjust
racial hierarchy that we have asa country, and I wanted to
(08:31):
explore that a little bit as Igrew up.
Janette (08:35):
You found yourself in the right job path, though.
I mean you landed in the rightplace to try to make a change.
You know and to that effect, Iwas telling Rachel that we want
to highlight the great thingsthat you have been a part of.
I know, for example we'retalking about the Clemency
Project is something that wewanted to talk about.
Amol Sinha (08:56):
So we have been on the front lines of leading
criminal legal reform in NewJersey for a very long time and
in some ways we've been anational leader as to criminal
legal reform in the UnitedStates.
Well before I started, ourorganization had set a goal to
end mass incarceration in NewJersey, and we said that that
(09:18):
meant to us at the time reducingour prison population by at
least 50 percent, and wearticulated how we were going to
do it and what some of ourgoals were in multiple different
categories.
And we decided to go forwardwith this goal and include
things like cannabislegalization, for instance,
inside of it.
(09:38):
And we were one of the leadersof the cannabis legalization
movement in New Jersey andthankfully we were able to pass
cannabis legalization from aracial justice point of view in
New Jersey, ending the long waron cannabis that had existed in
New Jersey, reducing the numberof arrests by more than 30,000
per year.
(09:58):
Then, when the pandemic hit,there was a moment where we were
all kind of scrambling andtrying to figure out what our
priorities would be in this newnormal that we were all
experiencing.
So just as we were figuring outhow to do our work as an
organization, we were alsothinking about how we contribute
to the moment, and one of thethings that we decided at that
time was that we were going toadvocate for people who probably
(10:22):
were not on the priority listwhen it came to the government's
priorities right, and thegovernment had to think about
kids in school or people innursing homes or front lines
workers.
They probably were not thinkingabout incarcerated people, and
so people who are incarceratedare so often kept in these
closed quarters where the thingsthat we could have done on the
(10:42):
outside to protect ourselvesweren't available to them on the
inside.
So you know, where we couldsocially distance or wear gloves
and masks and hand sanitizer,those things were not available
to people who are incarcerated.
And New Jersey at one point hadthe worst rate of death in its
prisons as a result of COVID inthe country, and we had more
(11:02):
deaths than New York,massachusetts, connecticut and
Pennsylvania combined, and so weknew that we had to do
something.
Rachel (11:09):
Do we have more people?
Sorry to interrupt.
Amol Sinha (11:11):
No.
Do we have more peopleincarcerated, percentage-wise,
than they do.
No, in fact, we have less, andthat was a disaster that was
happening, and so one of thethings that we decided was that
we would use all the tools inour toolbox, including
litigation and communicationsand legislative advocacy, to
(11:32):
reduce the prison population,because we learned from both
public health experts andcriminal justice experts that
the only way to curb the spreadof the disease inside prisons is
to reduce the prison populationso that people are safer while
they're inside and people wholeave are able to properly
self-isolate.
And, long story short, we wereable to pass this legislation
(11:54):
called the Public HealthEmergency Credit, which
basically reduced the sentencesof people who were set to be
released within a year and sothese are people Right Instead
(12:15):
of getting them out and wherethey can properly self-isolate
and potentially save their lives.
And so we were able to, andwe've, overall, reduced our
prison population from from 2011to 2022 by more than 50 percent
.
Janette (12:48):
Right, and that's incredible.
You're burying the lead on thisstory, though is that?
Amol Sinha (12:52):
Yeah, tell me.
Janette (12:53):
Crime, crime rate has actually gone down, right, I
mean that's absolutely true.
Rachel (12:58):
Well, I think that's that you should lead with that,
because people who are who areagainst this idea and can't wrap
their head around.
You know, letting people out ofjail, you know, either early or
at all, it's good to lead withthat.
That well.
It didn't impact safety at all.
Amol Sinha (13:15):
That's absolutely true.
We've seen that we can bothdecarcerate our prisons and
advance public safety at thesame time, and crime rates
across all major crimecategories have gone down.
Janette (13:27):
There's so much we want to talk to you about, but I
just want to tie this in to thegovernor's election and assembly
is that I think that a lot ofthe platforms are going to be
talking about reducing crime andusing this as a kind of a spin.
And I've that a lot of theplatforms are going to be
talking about reducing crime andthe you know and using this as
a kind of a spin.
And I've seen a couple ofthings online talking about,
specifically about during COVID,their release of, and there's a
(13:47):
big spin on it, but they don'tdig into it.
They're just saying that you'rereleasing a bunch of prisoners
and putting and putting them onthe streets to reoffend.
You know and I think thatthat's something that people
need to take a look at when theyare picking their governor's
choices Are they?
Are they giving you the truedata?
Amol Sinha (14:03):
And that leads me to talking about the clemency
project, which is, you know,which is a gubernatorial power.
Like clemency is the idea thatpeople who are executive leaders
, whether it's the president orthe governor have this authority
to reduce sentences, grantpardons and commutations of
people who are eitherincarcerated or out, and rid
them of their criminalconsequences.
(14:27):
And thinking about the clemencyproject at the start of Governor
Murphy's second term, when wewere like, ok, we have this
second term progressive Democratas governor, what is it that we
need to see in this moment?
And?
And we decided that we weregoing to start building this
project that would encourageGovernor Murphy to take a
(14:48):
categorical approach to clemency.
That is, you know, let's notwait for the politically
connected person to make theirway to your desk.
Let's find the people thatshould no longer be incarcerated
as a result of the criteriathat led to their incarceration
in the first place, and so useit as a decarceration tool
rather than just the tool ofmercy.
(15:08):
We were able to articulate thecategories of people that we
wanted to target, and thosecategories included survivors of
domestic violence and sextrafficking who had attacked
their abusers and, secondly, acategory of people who are
incarcerated as a result of atrial penalty.
So they had a plea offer, sayit was five years, decided to
(15:33):
reject that plea offer and go totrial, as is their
constitutional right, gotconvicted at trial and got 25
years.
Rachel (15:41):
I hadn't known about that until I read that and I
didn't realize that that couldhappen.
If you get a plea for fiveyears and clearly they feel it's
OK, five years is really enough, then to when you go through
trial and you get convicted thatyou get 25 years, it just seems
rather.
Janette (16:00):
That's why they always tell you in all these crime
shows take the plea, you know,because if it goes to trial
you're looking at, you know, andthat just so never made sense.
You're like you have to goahead and kind of basically
admit guilt to take the pill,the plea, when you want to try
to fight it.
Is it potentially going tochange with the next governor?
Rachel (16:21):
Like can they?
Can they, you know, you knowreverse it?
Can I get rid of it?
Amol Sinha (16:25):
The good thing is that they can't undo the actions
that the governor has alreadytaken.
So, for instance, we have threeclients walk out of prison a
few weeks ago, right beforeChristmas three women who had
been incarcerated for decadesbecause they had attacked their
abusers in self-defense and as aresult of their trauma, and it
was a remarkable moment and thegovernor has taken perhaps the
(16:48):
broadest articulation ofclemency in the country and it's
really powerful.
So thankfully, the nextgovernor can't send those women
back to prison, but what we arehoping for is that the next
governor embraces clemencyearlier in their term and more
frequently, and so we want tocontinue the trend of using
(17:09):
clemency as a rule rather thanan exception.
Rachel (17:13):
And an ongoing process, rather than waiting for when
they're about to leave officeand they quickly sign some
things, or when they, asPresident Trump did when he got
into office, do that.
Janette (17:25):
Well, I want to move on to immigration, but just before
we do for the average person, Ihad someone reach out to me
saying that I know you'retalking to them all and they
were like, are they looking forparalegals or anything to help
out?
Like, is there that I could dothis on the side?
You know, to be like a, youknow, feel like I'm part of what
is there for the average personin this particular area, and
(17:49):
then we can talk about that ineach one of these different
areas that they could do.
Amol Sinha (17:54):
So there, I'm so appreciative of the question
because we could use a lot ofsupport in a different number of
areas.
One is, first of all, we arealways working in community
spaces.
So when, when we do, forinstance, know your rights
trainings or things like that,if folks want to organize a know
your rights training for theircommunity, we're happy to come
(18:16):
and participate in that and tagteam with a community leader.
We do hire occasionally, and sopeople should keep an eye out
on our careers page for jobpostings, and there's going to
be a few coming down the line.
And then for folks who areparalegals or attorneys, we
often partner with law firms onpro bono work, and so when we
(18:40):
have litigation happening,oftentimes we partner with a law
firm.
That gives us a lot ofresources and support for
leading that work.
So there are many differententry points into the work.
But then there's also just thenot just, but the activism that
is so important, and so we arealways looking for people to
call their lawmakers to engagewith folks on why it is that
(19:04):
they need to see progressive orcivil rights affirming policies
in action in their communities.
And so right now we areprioritizing something called
the Immigrant Trust Act and wewant to make sure that lawmakers
in New Jersey hear from theirconstituents that we need to
pass the Immigrant Trust Act sothat our communities are
protected.
Rachel (19:23):
So what is the Immigrant Trust Act?
Amol Sinha (19:26):
So the Immigrant Trust Act I'm glad you asked is
a bill that would basicallycreate a firewall between local
law enforcement and federalimmigration enforcement.
So when the Trump administrationis out there saying that they
are going to deploy the biggestmass deportation scheme in US
history, states have to be theones to say no, you're not, and
(19:50):
and the way they would do thatthe Trump administration would
do that is by utilizing stateand local resources to go after
communities here, and so we needa law that prevents the law
enforcement and other agenciesfrom being complicit in this
mass deportation scheme.
It does a number of things,including that firewall, but it
(20:11):
also creates a pathway to whatwe're calling data minimization,
where we don't need to collectcertain pieces of information
about people and hold on to themif they're signing up for an
after school program or for alibrary card, so like.
Do we really need to collectinformation about immigration
status or somebody's socialsecurity number or their gender
identity when we know that thatinformation isn't actually
(20:35):
useful in the processing ofwhatever service?
the government is providing andso that way we're not holding on
to things that we don't need.
That could make peoplevulnerable, should the federal
government decide to go afterthem.
Janette (20:48):
Do you know, within this upcoming election, the
governor's race is that kind ofone of the big issues of this.
You know, information Act orwhatever it is about our own
personal information, or isthere?
Amol Sinha (21:02):
It should be, and so I would love to hear from the
gubernatorial candidates abouthow they feel about the
Immigrant Trust Act, whatthey're going to do to stand up
for immigrant communities andother vulnerable communities.
Look, it's by design that NewJersey has an election after a
presidential election, and we'reonly one of two states it's us
in Virginia that hadgubernatorial elections in 2025.
(21:25):
And so we need to hear from ourcandidates what they're going
to do to stand up for the peoplethat are going to be attacked
by the Trump administration,because we know that there's
going to be a lot of damage anda lot of harm.
Janette (21:38):
Regarding the protection, the immediate
protection, of you say, let'sjust say that some districts, or
can it be divvied up?
So I mean we just it's also inthe air this whole immigration
thing, and you hear ISIS.
Now they're talking, they cango into schools and churches and
you're just like, well, wait,wait is the high school.
Are they going to have like a,you know a SWAT team?
(21:59):
Go in to get I don't know astudent or a worker or a staff?
You know what exactly?
Rachel (22:05):
Or like deploying the National Guard has been thrown
out in order to enact.
Janette (22:11):
What is the?
Rachel (22:11):
vision.
It's kind of hard for us toimagine, as New Jersey residents
, what this could look like, andalso how do we protect our
neighbors.
Amol Sinha (22:21):
So let me just say that the chaos is the point
right.
They want to throw chaos andmake every community live in
fear, and so all of the thingsthat you're talking about are
absolutely true that the Trumpadministration is giving us
announcements without a lot ofinformation or specificity about
what it is that they're goingto do.
And so when they say thatthey're going to go after
(22:42):
birthright citizenship and wesaw this executive order from
the Trump administration, one ofthe first ones and, by the way,
within hours of that executiveorder being signed, the ACLU
sued and we have a lawsuit rightnow saying that no, a president
cannot rewrite the Constitutionof the United States.
This is a right that isenshrined in the 14th Amendment,
and we are going to stand upfor for the communities that are
(23:06):
going to be impacted by thisexecutive order, and we're not
going to sit down unless we hearfrom a court that the right is
protected and it's going to behere to stay.
And so the Trump administrationis going after and pulling out
whatever strings they canbecause either it gives them a
clout in their base or becausethey are seeing this as
(23:27):
something that is beneficial tothem in terms of power.
And so when we hear about massdeportation, first of all we
should take Trump at his wordright that he's going to try to
deploy the biggest massdeportation scheme in US history
.
And what that will look like, itvaries from community to
community, but it means thingslike raids in workplaces, the
(23:47):
sensitive locations policy thatyou just cited.
They're saying that they'regoing to go into our schools and
our churches to go after people, places that people saw as
sanctuaries before.
What a traumatic experiencethat would be for children right
to not only be arrested andbasically taken into immigration
detention, but to view theirclassmates being pulled out of
(24:10):
the classroom by SWAT team stylelaw enforcement that are coming
in to run raids in our schools.
What a horrifying thought, andso we need to push back on
everything that we are seeing,and that's why, you know, at the
ACLU, with our partners, wefiled so far in day three of the
Trump administration, we filedthree legal actions against them
(24:32):
, and during the first Trumpadministration, we had filed 430
legal actions against thatadministration, the most in our
history and we are ready andprepared to do it again if we
need to.
Janette (24:46):
Well, it makes you understand how much work there
is for lawyers right now.
They used to say don't go tolaw school, there's so many
lawyers, it's like at this pointit's like I think there's a lot
of work out there for you,which you know, especially in
constitutional law.
Yeah, immigration law.
Rachel (25:03):
Well, it's interesting because you're saying the 14th
Amendment and you know there'sprecedent, and then we look at
Roe v Wade being overturned andthere was precedent.
It's very.
Amol Sinha (25:33):
It's terrifying to say that abortion is no longer a
constitutionally protectedright at the federal level, but
that's why I think the statesneed to really lead, and so, as
we're seeing sort of thispatchwork on abortion of states,
some of which have criminalizedabortion, some of which have
severely restricted it, we needstates like New Jersey to really
(25:54):
shine.
New Jersey has one of thestrongest codifications of
abortion rights in the country,and our governor, during his
State of the State address,talked about stockpiling
mifepristone, which is theabortion drug, and he talked
about advancing abortion accessfor all, regardless of whether
you're underinsured or uninsured, and that's really powerful.
So we need to make sure thatstates like New Jersey build
(26:18):
what we're calling a firewallfor freedom, that we enact
policies that will protect ourresidents and really show to the
nation what a state can do inthe face of an authoritarian
presidency.
Janette (26:31):
What is the jeopardy that you see at this moment?
That the federal government,could, you know, change where we
are in New Jersey, ourstandings and our rights as
women?
Amol Sinha (26:42):
So one of the things that I think the federal
government is going to try to dois a nationwide abortion ban,
and that's why it's so importantto have states say we're not
going to stand for it.
And a nationwide abortion bancould mean that it is no longer
allowed at the federal level andstates will continue to have to
(27:02):
either enshrine it in theirconstitutions or find ways to
make sure that it is protected.
And so in New Jersey, whereabortion has already been
interpreted to be a fundamentalconstitutional right, we are
pretty squarely safe fundamentalconstitutional right we are
pretty squarely safe, and thatis something that I'm very proud
of.
But that's not to say that thefederal government isn't going
(27:24):
to try to go after, chip away atthe right, even in a state like
New Jersey.
So we have to be constantlyvigilant and make sure that
we're doing whatever we can toprotect the right to an abortion
here and here in our state andand demonstrate that the public
(27:44):
really wants it Right.
Like every poll that I've seen,the vast majority, the vast
majority of Americans believe inthe right to an abortion.
Abortion we're talking aboutlike 75, 80 percent of people
that believe in the right to anabortion, and so it is.
(28:06):
It doesn't even make politicalsense for President Trump to try
to pursue an abortion ban rightnow.
So not only is it, is it thewrong thing to do because it
hurts our rights.
It's the wrong thing to dobecause it doesn't really get
you any political points either.
Janette (28:14):
Right, right, right.
Rachel, you brought upsomething about funding,
reducing funding that I was I'mcurious about across the board
on all of these issues.
How is that going to affectyour organization?
Amol Sinha (28:27):
we are solely dependent on private foundations
and individual donors.
The vast majority of ourfunding comes from individual
donors, everyday people thatbelieve in the work that we do,
and so when federal programs arecut, it won't affect the ACLU.
(28:50):
However, it will affect othergroups that we partner with,
pretty often includingorganizations like Planned
Parenthood, partner with prettyoften including organizations
like Planned Parenthood, and wewant to make sure that
organizations like PlannedParenthood are thriving, and so
we're pushing back on attemptsto defund Planned Parenthood or
cut away at abortion funding.
One of the things that is notexactly policy but we also are
(29:15):
afraid of should be vigilantabout rising and escalating
rhetoric.
So there was a moment where theACLU presented before the
Supreme Court of the UnitedStates on a case regarding
gender affirming care fortransgender youth in Tennessee.
We had sent the first, chaseStrangio, who's a lawyer with
(29:37):
the ACLU at the national officehe's my colleague who was the
first transgender person toappear before the Supreme Court
of the United States and rightafter his argument, elon Musk
tweeted defund the ACLU Now.
Question mark as to whether thatcan actually happen, because we
don't get any funding from, butthe message is out there, right
(29:59):
, and there was an increase inthe sorts of hate that we get on
a regular basis from people.
But you know, the message is outthere and I think that the
government is going to try to goafter organizations like mine
that are considered to beadversarial to their priorities.
And we saw a bill comingthrough the Congress trying to
(30:20):
go after the tax-exempt statusof nonprofit organizations and
thankfully that didn't move.
But you know, I imagine that abill like that will come back at
some point in the near future,do you?
Rachel (30:31):
feel that you need to change, or the ACLU has to adapt
the conversation and maybechange some of the language that
you know progressives have beenusing because of President
Trump winning this election onhis rhetoric and his stirring
people up to be afraid ofcertain things.
(30:51):
Do you feel that it's the waythat maybe we have all been
communicating our support forsome of these issues is maybe
not working and not winning thehearts?
Janette (31:03):
and minds of the entire population.
And it's only getting 50percent less than 50 percent
Right.
Amol Sinha (31:10):
Yeah.
So I'll say this Look our jobat the ACLU not to elect
Democratic leaders, right?
We are a nonpartisanorganization and we've had the
same principles for 105 years,and I like to say that we
outlive any one political moment, and so I am all for meeting
people where they're at andtrying to build common ground
(31:33):
and consensus, and maybe thatmeans talking about it in a way
that people can relate.
However, you know what thatdoesn't mean is means talking
about it in a way that peoplecan relate.
However, you know what thatdoesn't mean is undermining our
principles in any way.
We're still going to defend therights of undocumented people.
We're still going to try toreduce our prison population.
We're going to continue toadvocate for people who are
seeking an abortion.
So we're going to continue todo the same work that we've been
(31:55):
doing for 105 years, and I dothink that the population is
with us on a lot of these ideas.
You know the general populationbelieves in proven solutions to
immigration, right?
Even if you can argue thatthere is a problem with
immigration in the United States, it's not that the public wants
(32:16):
to deport 20 million people.
What they want are things thatare common sense, proven
solutions like pathways tocitizenship.
They don't want to be cruel totheir neighbors.
We did some polling around ourclemency project and people
believe in clemency as a way toend mass incarceration.
They believe in clemency as atool of compassion, and so when
(32:38):
you really ask the public thequestions, the right questions,
they will give you answers thatare consistent with the work of
the ACLU.
Janette (32:54):
I really do believe that and I think that we all
have varying you know feelingsabout all these issues, and I do
think that's why you see thatyou're fear and we're not going
to stand for it.
Amol Sinha (33:46):
And so the kindness and compassion piece of this is
is incredibly important.
It's it's something that isgoing to be people powered and
driven from the ground up andnot brought from Washington or
from the president's office.
Janette (33:59):
I like how you said that yeah, yeah, Okay.
So, as we wind out, I want toask you though before is there
anything, a message that youwant to give to our listeners?
That seems to be is pressingfor you.
Amol Sinha (34:15):
So I would say this join the work, and what I mean
by that is there are so manyorganizations out there in New
Jersey and beyond that are doingtremendous work on immigrants
rights, on abortion access, onracial justice, on voting rights
and democracy.
We are one of them, and we havea lot of partner organizations
as well.
Support the work however youcan.
(34:35):
If you are able to support itwith money, please donate
whenever you can to whatevercause you believe in it is
crucial.
We started this conversation bytalking about how the ACLU has
grown.
We have grown and we've grownnationwide no-transcript calling
(35:39):
your.
Janette (35:40):
You know your staying active by calling your lawmakers
vote.
Right.
Pay attention to what the whatthe governors are you know
standing for, yeah, and, andmaybe you know, have a know your
rights event in your town.
And what else we got?
Amol Sinha (35:59):
Look, being civically engaged is so
important, making sure thatlawmakers are hearing from you.
One of the reasons why peoplefeel a little defeated and
feeling a sense of apathy rightnow is because there has been a
gradual shift in our politicsand people feel like what's the
point?
Right, I get it, I understand.
Janette (36:19):
Apathetic apathy is like set in, you know you feel
hopeless.
Rachel (36:22):
You're like that we're in this again.
Janette (36:25):
Well you know I was listening to someone today
talking about that, saying thatthat is somewhat.
The strategy is to just get youto a place of exhaustion to
where you just are, like I giveup.
Amol Sinha (36:38):
Stephen Miller, who's one of the senior advisors
to the president, actually saidthat out loud.
He said that their strategyfrom day one is going to be to
blitz the public and theorganizations that are pushing
back, and they're not going tobe able to handle it.
We're going to just come afteryou with one thing after another
, after another, in order tooverwhelm you and and you know,
(36:59):
for the past year, the ACLUwe've been scenario planning for
this moment and trying tofigure out how we were going to
respond Should there be a Trumppresidency.
Rachel (37:08):
Were you surprised by the outcome of the election or
no?
Amol Sinha (37:11):
I'll say that I wasn't surprised by the outcome.
I was.
I was surprised that it was sodecisive.
You know I was expecting it tobe a drawn out process, but the
fact that he won the electoralvote and the popular vote, you
(37:33):
know, was a little bit of asurprise to me.
But, like I said, we had beenpreparing for either scenario
because we saw either one as apotential reality.
Rachel (37:44):
Yep Right, yep Right.
Janette said we'd like to ask aquestion about what you love
about New Jersey, but beforethat I wanted to ask with your
work all these years to helppeople and make this world, this
country, more equal, more justand more kind, what do you do to
(38:04):
unload any stress that you haveat the end of the day?
Do you meditate?
Do you dance to music?
What do you do?
Amol Sinha (38:15):
So right now, my wife and I, we have have a small
child.
I've got a 16 month old baby athome, um.
So that's a lot of work but alot of stress relief and a lot
of fun as well at the same time.
So we do family dance parties,sometimes in the house, which is
really fun, but no, generallystress relief for me is being
with family and friends, working, working out a little bit and
(38:38):
trying to center myself in thework right.
So the work to me is it can bestressful, I will say, but the
reason I work at the ACLU isbecause I get to come to work
every day at a workplace thataligns with my values and it
allows me to live my values on aday-to-day basis and that, to
me, is centering in a way that Ithink a lot of people search
(39:00):
for throughout their careers.
So I'm very grateful.
Janette (39:04):
That's wonderful Well all right, now you have the
really the most importantquestion what do you love?
What is something that youthink about that you love about
New Jersey?
Amol Sinha (39:14):
That's a great question.
Look, I love so much aboutJersey.
This is my home, this is whereI've spent most of my life, it's
where my wife is from and ourfamilies are rooted here.
What I love about the state isthat New Jersey is filled with
fighters, and when I talkedabout forging a firewall for
freedom, I don't mean thatlightly.
(39:34):
What I mean is that we're goingto take every tool that we have
to insulate New Jersey from theworst instincts of the Trump
administration and anybody elsethat tries to come after us, and
so I'm grateful that we haveleaders like our attorney
general and our governor thatare out there saying the same
thing, that they're going todefend New Jerseyans and protect
our values.
(39:55):
And to me, what that means isthere's this unique brand of
grit that New Jerseyans have,and it's one of the most diverse
states in the country, one ofthe most populated states in the
country, one of the mostimmigrant, dense states in the
country.
It has so much richness and somuch going for it.
You know, I dare any otherstate or any other federal
(40:16):
leader to come after us to saythat we shouldn't live our
values the way we do, and itgives me a lot of pride to be in
the state that has given me somuch and to be a leader in the
state that is fighting for thecivil rights and liberties for
every single New Jerseyan outthere.
And lastly, the pizza.
There is nothing that comparesto New Jersey pizza.
(40:38):
I'm on like a personal missionto try to find the best pizza.
Well, they're all the best right.
Janette (40:45):
There's so many different kinds.
Is there a particular place youfind yourself going to over and
over, Even if it's not just thedefault?
What's your default pizza spot?
Amol Sinha (40:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's actually very close to Montclair
.
It's a place called PizzaTerminal in Verona.
Giving them a shout out, I'venever been there.
It's great.
They have something called theBrooklyn Pie, which is a
Sicilian pie with caramelizedonions on it, which is one of
the best foods that I've had ina long time.
Rachel (41:13):
That's what I'm doing this weekend.
Thank you, we'll pop in thereand get some pizza, that's what.
Janette (41:16):
I'm doing this weekend, thank you, We'll pop in there
and get some pizza.
Rachel (41:19):
That's great.
Janette (41:20):
Well, it's been a pleasure to talk with you and to
get some perspective on whatwe're going to be seeing for
this next year if not the nextfour years and possibly some
ways that we can help, and alsowhat to keep an eye out for when
we are going to go to thevoting booth, and I guess it's
November and we're grateful forall the work.
Rachel (41:40):
Are going to go to the voting booth, and I guess yeah,
and we're grateful for all thework you've done and you
continue to do, we really, wereally are Thank you.
Amol Sinha (41:47):
Thank you so much.
It's going to take all of us,so I'm grateful for you to for
doing the work that you do, sothank you so much.
Janette (41:52):
Well, thank you Thank you, thank you.
Rachel (41:57):
This podcast is produced by Rachel Martens and Janette
Afsharian.
Thank you, Amol lost.
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