December 10, 2024 • 34 mins
Author Anastasia Rubis shares her debut novel, ORIANA, which she published at 64. She reveals her 11-year journey of rejections, editing, graduate school, and what ultimately helped her cross the publishing line.
In ORIANA, she explores the extraordinary life of journalist Oriana Fallaci (description below).
In our conversation, Rubis opens up about perseverance and chasing dreams no matter your age and shares how Oriana’s fierce determination became a role model for her own tenacity. Whether you’re an aspiring writer, a historical fiction fan, or need a little nudge to follow your dreams, this episode is for you!
We give the book 4 stars! ⭐⭐⭐⭐
Get Oriana: A Novel of Oriana Fallaci by Anastasia Rubis
Book Description:
When a Hollywood producer comes to Oriana Fallaci at the end of her life to propose a movie, the story unfolds of her gutsy career rise as a journalist, her tragic love, and her greatest regret.
Oriana was born a rebel. She fought beside her father at age fourteen in Italy’s Resistance against the Nazis and overcame poverty, the lack of a university education, and relentless sexism in the newsroom. By 1973, when she moved to New York, Oriana Fallaci was hailed by Newsweek as the greatest interviewer of her day. She catapulted to fame for her bold and provocative interviews with Kissinger, Arafat, Meir, Robert Kennedy, Indira Gandhi, the Shah of Iran, and other world leaders—not to mention the most prominent celebrities and artists of her day.
That same year, she did what no journalist is supposed to do: she fell in love with one of her subjects, Alexander Panagoulis, the Greek poet and hero. She was 44, he was 34; they lived in different countries. It didn’t matter. Oriana had finally found what she longed for, a full life. But can a woman ever have it all, or does life always exact a price?
Oriana is the first biographical novel about the brilliant and fearless Italian journalist whom Christiane Amanpour has called her role model—and who holds a place alongside Mike Wallace and Barbara Walters as a master interviewer. It is the story of a trailblazer who broke through the glass ceiling of journalism, a woman who wasn’t afraid to speak truth to power, and who revolutionized her field all while struggling to carve out a space for love and family.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey Jeanette, hi Rachel.
Today we have an excitinginterview with Anastasia Rubis,
who goes by Stacey.
She is the author of Oriana, anovel of Oriana Falaci, and we
had recommended this on ourpodcast recently.
It was recommended to me byWachung Booksellers and I flew
(00:29):
through it and you listened toit.
She has been published in theNew York Times, huffington Post,
new York Observer and literaryjournals.
She graduated from Brown andthen, much later, when she moved
to Montclair, she got amaster's in English from
Montclair State University.
We have such a greatconversation where she shares
(00:50):
how, over 11 years, it took herto get this book published.
Right, talk about perseverance.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, if you're a person that likes to read a book
before it becomes a movie, thisis it.
Do it before it is suggestedthat it's a movie, because it
could be.
This is do it before it is in.
It is suggested that it's amovie because it could be.
You know, she's so inspiring.
I think she said she's in hersixties and that she has been
doing this a long time and thiswas her first debut.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Uh no it is never too late.
It's never too late, Just keepgoing.
She also was saying you know,the only failure is when you
stop and and with that, enjoythis interview.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thank you so much, stacey, for coming on.
Lost in Jersey, we had a reallyinteresting introduction to you
because of Rachel.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, I went to watch on booksellers and I was just
in one of those moods where Ineeded a lot of books and I
always ask them for.
And they recommended yourbeautiful book, oriana, and I
came home and I flew through it.
It was comforting to me in themoment.
It was awesome.
It was about somebody I didn'tknow, oriana Falaci and I.
I then went down a deep dive onwho is the writer, so I got
(02:03):
excited and so thank you so muchfor coming on.
We definitely want to hear howyou got to New Jersey, but then
we also would love to know aboutyour writing career and how you
got to this point.
Why, oriana, all of that?
And then we could talk a littlebit about the book.
Does that sound good?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Of course Sounds great, so where?
Are you from originally, so Iwas born.
I was born and raised in Queensuntil eight years old, but then
we moved to New Jersey, soEnglewood cliffs.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Okay and so.
Yes, so I do know that it'sbeautiful there.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
There's Greek in your background clearly not just
literally, but literally.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
It's Greek Greek.
My parents are from Greece, soI'm first generation and I think
you know their best man movedto Englewood Cliffs and then
they brought their like you knowgoddaughter and cousin and you
know it became this littleenclave in English cliffs of
Greek people.
So you know, along with Italianpeople and Jewish people, and
(03:08):
this was in the 60s and 70s.
Ok, ok, so I did the usualthing.
You know I had an idyllicchildhood, growing up in the
streets with kids and in thewoods.
You know our parents had noidea where we were all day.
You know, playing dodgeball andriding bikes.
But always as I grew and wentto college at Brown in Rhode
(03:29):
Island, I started to get the NewYork.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
you know, hunger you know must live in the city.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
So I moved to Manhattan when I was 28 or nine
and I lived there for 14 yearsand I got married there and I
had a child there and I think itwas the child that did it.
I was like, okay, this isreally hard.
But I mean she was four or fivewhen we finally moved and it
(03:57):
was, you know, the school thingand just the space, a lot.
Yeah, it was so much, but Iadored living in Manhattan.
It was a huge.
I consider it an education,especially for somebody who was
always interested in writing andI didn't really have the
courage to be a writer or thefinances.
So I was in advertising and Iwas in public relations, but in
(04:22):
my free time I was able to go tothe 92nd Street Y and listen to
lectures or the New York PublicLibrary.
There was always somethingcultural going on and I just
considered that time just aneducation.
After Cassandra, my daughterwas like four or five and it was
just the whole schooling issueand we were like you know what?
(04:44):
We'd like?
To be closer to our families.
They were both in New Jersey.
My daughter is an only child.
I wanted her to grow up withher cousin, so we moved back and
we chose Montclair, which I'mjust thrilled about.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, no, I really, it really is so unique.
Did you start writing when youwere in New York City?
Like small, like you know, likearticles, because I know you've
been published in someimpressive journals and
magazines and papers.
Is that where it started, ordid it start when you got here?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
No, it started in New York and I read for the New
York Observer.
If anybody remembers that itwas pink, you know, Totally yeah
.
And then I, how did I even getthis?
But I started writing for theNew York Times, the Sunday paper
, and there was a section calledthe City.
It was a great section and itwas all like human interest
(05:38):
stories about the city.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Okay, I love how you said that, though I love how you
said I just I started writingfor the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, no, no, no, If we're going to do that, I
started writing for DwightMorrow High School.
You know newspaper in Englewood, new Jersey, right, but no so
the New York Times.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
How do you get there?
How did you get to the New YorkTimes?
I?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
remember I'm really trying to remember, but you're
not going to believe where myeditor lived, in Montclair.
So it was this weirdconvergence of things.
I started writing for him andthen I moved to Montclair and
it's tough to keep writingfreelance, it's not like that.
But I wrote about 10 articlesor so for them.
(06:22):
But then you know you'repitching 100 articles.
They say yes to like half ofone you know, so freelance is
really hard.
But anyway, I just want to sayabout Montclair when I moved
here it wasn't just yes, it was,I'm going to talk about
watching books, but I also wentto Montclair state as an adult
and I got a master's in English.
So you know, and as somebodycoming from Brown University,
(06:47):
you know I was a bit of a snobabout education and I have to
tell you that I had the greatestprofessors, you know, scholars,
you know.
One woman was a Shakespearescholar, a man, Jim Nash, is
still in a writing group with me.
He's so phenomenal.
So I just, you know, I reallydove into the culture here and I
(07:08):
really appreciated theuniversity.
It's a university town.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I'm glad you brought that up.
We had the pleasure andprivilege of interviewing the
president of Montclair State,and Jeanette's taken classes
there, right, yeah, yeah, I'm abig fan, big fan, right, yeah,
yeah, I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Big fan.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
It's a great place and I don't know who's listening
, but I think if you're over 60before you can take classes for
free.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, that's incredible.
What do you think you got fromgoing and getting your master's
there?
I mean, like, what was theshift in your writing from?
Because clearly you were goingto talk about your incredible
book here in a minute.
Did that play a pivotal role?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yes, it did A couple of things.
First of all, it put me backinto the culture of thinking and
learning, like just forlearning sake and writing, you
know, and reading justliterature.
I got a master's in English,which is totally useless.
I got a master's in English,which was totally useless, you
know, but it was enriching.
But two things happened thereand there's two people that are
(08:10):
in my writing group, the onlytwo other people.
One's name is Jim Nash,professor Jim Nash, and I took a
course with him that was calledCreative Nonfiction.
Some people call it narrativenonfiction, personal writing,
personal essay, whatever youwant to call it.
(08:38):
Narrative nonfiction, personalwriting, personal essay,
whatever you want to call it,but it's basically writing based
in the truth.
Thing is that I met a peer,another old lady, at school.
No seriously, we were both inforties, possibly fifties, okay,
and her name is JaniceHubschman and the day I met her
(08:59):
we were introducing ourselves toclass and she's like I'm Janice
Hubschman and I write fictionand the way she said it I was
like maybe I write fiction tooand I'm just not willing to say
it.
So she remains, you know, alifelong friend and basically I
would say like a spark to mywriting.
I was very negative aboutwriting because I knew the whole
like publishing, you know, wassuch an ordeal and so full of,
(09:22):
you know, junk, and I was likeready to give up, kind of thing.
And she was like you, youshouldn't give up, you know she,
she's like I would tell you if,but you're, you're writing, no,
she goes, don't give up, keepgoing.
So she really gave me a sparkto keep going.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You need that in this , in that field, so much.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And just to even have one person believe in you is
huge.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
And also she was doing it.
This, this woman, janice,writes short stories.
Her first book just came out afew months ago.
It's so weird.
Our lives are so parallel, butwe're both 64 years old and
publishing our first books.
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's so wonderful and gives so many people hope
right.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I know it gives me personally so much hope.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, if I do anything today here, I do want
to inspire and give hope,because it's just all about, you
know, not giving up having, yes, some people in your life that
are role models or supporters.
And I mean, wait till I tellyou about my publishing journey.
You're not going to believe it.
Let's hear it Want to hear it.
Yes, so basically, I initiallyenvisioned Oriana as a film.
(10:33):
I had written a screenplay thefirst chapter of the book with
the producer and the last arebased on fact.
That did happen.
I was friendly with the head of.
I actually had to interview himfor one of my freelance
articles.
He was the head of 20th CenturyFox.
He was a head of 20th CenturyFox, he was a studio head and he
knew of the Oriana story withAlekos and the love story.
(10:57):
And I got him a meeting withOriana and he wanted to buy the
rights to her life story to do amovie.
She wouldn't do it.
They had a great time meeting.
They had cigars, they hadwhiskey in the middle of the
afternoon meeting.
They had cigars, they hadwhiskey in the middle of the
afternoon, but she wouldn't sellthe rights and then she died
four years later.
So I then was stuck with thisidea that wouldn't let go of me,
(11:19):
because I just love her so muchand think her life story is so
compelling.
So I decided to write ahistorical novel.
Well, if I had known that itwould take 11 years to write and
publish, publish, I probablywould have never done it.
Oh, wow, no, so ignorance is agood thing.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Sometimes it is you know it is well.
I love that that that's also.
You know how the book is kindof framed as well is how I used
it, you use all your failures.
Yeah, it's like a Hollywoodproducer wants to do a story
about Oriana.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
You know, I definitely felt while reading it
like this has to be a movie,like it has to be yeah, it's
like tailor made you know it is.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
She and her life are tailor made, or a series on
Netflix.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I was going to say a series yeah, because then you
can really have she has so muchin her life, so many life phases
that are so fascinating yeah,every episode could be a season
or an episode.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
You know every interview, every.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah, I totally agree and I really I'm still trying,
because I do see it as one ofthe greatest love stories never
told, as one of the greatesthistorical figures that nobody
in America knows about.
She's a household name in Italyand Europe.
Somebody from Puerto Rico toldme she's like a household name
in Latin America.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
But in.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
America, even though the woman lived here lived on
61st Street, owned a townhousefor decades.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
You know it's under the radar here that is.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Well, we could talk about that.
I don't know.
I have, I have my theories,which is a everybody gets 15
minutes of fame and then isforgotten.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
OK.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And B.
She's Italian, thereforeforeign, therefore, and also a
print journalist.
So she's not Barbara Walters,you know she's not on TV.
She's not American and finally,possibly because she's a woman.
You know there's a lot offemale stories that you know get
buried and I love that.
(13:25):
I'm kind of writing in thisgenre of women, rediscovering
and bringing to the foreforgotten women.
Yes, marie Benedict does this alot.
The other Einstein, likeEinstein's wife, was apparently,
you know, a genius.
And my favorite recently, kateWinslet made a movie called Lee,
(13:48):
I can't wait to see this.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
It is so good.
What is it about?
I haven't wait to see this.
I can't wait so good.
What is it about?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I haven't seen this so it's about a woman named Lee
Miller and Kate Winslet playsher, but she also produced the
film.
It's the first time she'sproduced a film and she fought
for years to get it made becauseshe said nobody wants to give
money to a movie about a womanand buy women.
You know it's a thing.
So Lee Miller was, you know,she had many different careers,
(14:17):
she was even a model, but sheended up being a war
photographer in World War II andsome of her photographs of the
Holocaust victims at Dachau shewas like one of the first
photographers there on the dayof liberation and her
photographs are some of like themost famous of World War II and
nobody knows about her.
(14:38):
Wow, that would be good.
The movie is fantastic.
And can I just say that writingand reading and looking at
movies about women like this, Iget something from it.
I get more courage, you know,true, true, and that is, I think
, what kept me going with Orianafor all those years is that,
wow, like we need this rolemodel, like we don't have that
(15:00):
many.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
We need more.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
And I think, if you see it, you can be it, as they
say, and you know, just youngpeople need this kind of role
model.
So let me quickly like tell youwhat happened on my journey to
publication.
So I start this novel 11 yearsago and I have, the writing is
hard.
Of course, you have to research, you have to do stuff.
You know, I went to BostonUniversity.
They have her archives there.
(15:23):
I listened to tapes of herinterviews so I heard her voice.
I went through two freelanceeditors.
That means I hire them and paythem to help me.
Is this good?
Am I doing this?
All right, it's not like I'dever done this before.
And so they give you feedback.
And then I had two differentagents.
(15:45):
All writers think that gettingan agent is the end all and be
all.
Well, I had two, and neitherone of them sold the book.
The second one tried, but itwas during COVID.
It was during a trend inpublishing where editors were
looking for books and they toldme this outright buying about
people of color.
So you know it's a timing thingtoo.
(16:06):
And also they were like oh, welike this, we like the story, we
like your writing, but she'snot well known, so you know.
So the big publishing houseswere not willing to take a risk.
So basically I took the bookback.
Yeah, I separated from my agent.
I was like, thank you very much.
Two or three or four smallpublishers who would accept
manuscripts unagented.
Ok, that's a word, unagented.
(16:41):
It sounds like you weren'tinvited to the party.
Definitely, you know, uninvited, uninvited.
So anyway, so I did that, and Ihappened to hit upon an editor
who publishes what he likes,loved Italy, loved Italians, had
lived in Italy I wasn't afraidof the Italian-ness of Oriana
(17:04):
and his name is Joseph Olshan.
The company is Delphinium Books, Laurie Milken is the publisher
, and within a year the book wasout.
Oh my goodness, yes, but youknow if I hadn't kind of taken
control of the reins?
You know, one thing I thinkwriters do is they rely too much
(17:26):
on the machinery, like theeditor or the agent or the
publisher.
They give away their power.
Yeah, and the other thing I'vedone this whole time is market
and promote the book myself.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, and you're doing a fantastic job with it.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
One of the lessons and I mean I think Oriana knew
this you can't rely on otherpeople to do what you want done.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Sadly no, that's true In so many different ways.
Like with career in anything inthe arts, I pursued acting for
a bit a long time ago and I justthought I was that young, naive
, you know person that said Ineed an agent, I need a manager.
Once I get that, I'll be good.
(18:08):
And then you see other peoplesort of making it and you're
like, oh, they have theperseverance to just walk in a
door that they're unagented oruninvited and do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Where I was such a rule follower, yeah no, it got
in my way, yeah, I mean I'm sureit happens to some people some
of the time where you know youjust put yourself in the hands
of the system and woo you know,good things happen.
But in my experience it's likepushing a boulder up the hill
Right, and it's a constanteffort.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, that is a crazy story.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
11 years yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And all the different iterations.
It's pretty fascinating.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
The main thing is, you can't give up, you know, and
at times I thought I was nutsand that I should give up, you
know, but certain things keepyou going.
One is the subject matter thatI was dealing with.
I was pretty obsessed withOriana for many, many years.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Tell us about.
I read an article about whereyou found a story, so will you
tell us?
I will tell you.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I will tell you.
So I was with my Greekbackground.
We went to Greece every once ina while in the summer.
So one summer I was in Greeceand I was on a remote island
called Pholegandros.
It's near Santorini.
Nobody knows the island andcertainly this was the 80s and
really it was unknown then and Iwas waiting for the ferry boat
(19:37):
to go back to Athens andbrowsing in a souvenir shop and
what do I see?
But the only book in English.
There were no English languagebooks in Greece at the time, you
know, so I bought it.
It was this book.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Oh, this is her.
She's so cool Very cool, that'sthe word.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
She's cool.
Can you say the?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
name of that book so the listeners can see yeah, it's
A man, it's A man, a man.
Yeah, that's so wild becauseand it's a novel by her.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Why do you think that it's?
It's her love story withAlexander Panagoulis and it's
after he.
I'm not going to say whathappens, but she writes a memoir
about their love affair and Ijust love the book.
I'm a big sappy romantic butalso her writing style is so
like opinionated and verypersonal.
(20:25):
I think maybe it's very Italian.
You know she's very likethere's no walls.
You know she's very, verypersonal, very saying it like it
is, it's all out there.
It's all out there and you'relike, wow, I didn't know you
could do that and ooh, brave,and stuff like that.
So when I came back to theStates, I was in my 20s.
(20:47):
Okay, you want to see a pictureof me when I discovered the
book.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
This is on the island .
Yes, please, this is on theisland.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Can you see?
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Look at you, look at you.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
You've got to send us that picture.
I love it.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
You, you've got to send us that picture.
Do you see how, like, seriouslythoughtful, I'm writing,
probably, in my journal?
You know?
Um, I should be having a beer,but instead I'm thinking on this
Island, but anyway.
So I discovered her book.
I go back home Nobody knowsabout her, so I start reading
all her books and, um, I havethem here.
I mentioned them in the noveland she gets her hooks in me and
(21:23):
and the love story, you know,because I was like a real, I was
a moviegoer, I loved Out ofAfrica and Reds and Way we Were,
and all of these are so good.
Yeah, all of these to me werestories about super strong,
special women, extraordinarywomen who, like, did things in
(21:45):
their life, but somehow in theirprivate life they had.
There was a lot of poignancy,some pain, maybe they didn't get
everything they wanted, butthey were unstoppable women.
And I just that combinationreally I love it.
Oh my gosh, she was honest.
Her journalism.
(22:05):
She would use the word I a lotI.
She was in her journalisminterviews.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Which was also unique at that time.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But nobody taught her .
Speaker 1 (22:14):
She was self-taught Right.
I love that she didn't go toschool for it Again, not a rule
follower, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Just went for it and then developed the Q&A format
Exactly, and beyond the Q&Aformat she developed the
provocative question Q&A, likeshe wasn't asking what kind of
tea do you serve at the WhiteHouse?
You know she was asking don'tyou think Vietnam has been a
useless war?
You know, like really thequestions that were on
everybody's mind but nobodyreally had the kind of guts
(22:49):
because it's confrontational.
She was confrontational.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It was interesting with the Kissinger interview how
he probably just thought it wasa fluff piece.
Right, I think that's basically, but it was actually a pivotal,
very critical interview on himand he didn't realize what hit
him after.
You know it was really kind ofsurprised.
I love that that they weresurprised.
(23:13):
I think that's Rachel and I allthe time on our interviews.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
We're just like afterwards we're like God, is
she serious?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
No, there's a book that's her collected interviews
that I highly recommend.
In fact, kian Amampour saidshe'd be required reading for
all journalists.
Kian Amampour considers herlike her great mentor and role
model and said I wanted to beher and you can tell when you
watch Christiane, the way sheposes, that there is a little
(23:44):
bit of Oriana in her.
She's going into theseinterviews with armed guards.
She's in the desertinterviewing Muammar Gaddafi.
She's like you know.
She's on the floor on thecarpet with Ayatollah Khomeini
all men you know, no women, butI think for 11 years.
Another thing that kept megoing is like what makes her
(24:04):
tick?
I want to be unintimidated.
I need to get some of thatvitamin or whatever it is so
like.
How is it that somebody can benot intimidated?
I love that.
Do you feel?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
that it really also has to do with how she grew up.
Yeah, of course during thattime and being.
I love picturing her, you know,running with paper notes to
resist the Nazis and resistfascism.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
It's a girl you know it's her parents, like her
father was a leader of theresistance so he drafted her.
He's like little Ariana on yourbicycle.
Can you deliver this?
You know grenade to resistanceheadquarters or you know
wrapping secret messages insideher braids?
I think a childhood of fear,like burned off her fear, like
(24:53):
when you grow up like that andyou're like facing Nazi
checkpoints and you know riflesand they took her father away
and jailed him for some time.
And you know rifles and theytook her father away and jailed
him for some time.
After that, like to go to theWhite House and interview Henry
Kissinger.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
What's so scary about that, you know your life isn't
in danger you know, it also saidthat it could have been a
little bit to how her fatherhelped impact her cynicism of
what is the truth being toldversus what is really the truth,
and needing to find that typeof you know answer, polly, is
(25:29):
also a driving factor, you'reabsolutely right.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I mean she grew up learning to question authority,
learning to question propaganda,like kind of believing
everything was propaganda rightBecause in school she's like
saying like kind of believingeverything was propaganda right
Because in school she's likesaying you know, I love
Mussolini and Hitler and youknow.
And then she finds out.
So of course after a childhoodlike that you're going to be a
little jaded about what you'rehearing.
(25:53):
The other thing, and let'smention her mother.
Very unusual for a woman inItaly at that time.
Oriana was born in 1929.
That would make her almost 100.
Right now that would make her95.
So her mother comes from evenan older generation.
But she told Oriana don't be aservant like me, work, fly Like.
(26:15):
She pushed her out of the nestinto the world and I think
without that Oriana wouldn'thave left her country probably.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, yeah for sure, and that is unusual and pretty
bold of a mother to say to herchild.
But again, maybe that was all,like you were saying, a result
of what they had all beenthrough and seen about the world
.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Yeah, I mean they were poor.
You know they ran out of foodand also that her mother was an
intellectual.
You know they bought thosebooks, the classics, the leather
bound, and you know Oriana readthem and stuff.
So I don't know.
I was just so impressed byOriana, like not to go to
university and to be sobrilliant that she could be
(26:58):
interviewing the head of China,the head of, you know, india,
the head of the US, and knowingall the history, knowing all the
politics of the time, andthere's no internet where she's
like googling and looking upRight right.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
You forget that.
You know it was much harder toget your facts.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, you know you're such a good writer and you have
so many beautiful turns ofphrase and descriptions to
really pull you from our currentday into that moment of
wherever she's living.
And that's hard to do, and it'syour first novel, it's it's
really quite impressive.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, but, but did I mention the other couple of
novels in my drawer?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, II definitely have.
You know, I wrote a young adultnovel.
I tried to write like more oflike a pop novel.
So they are there, the hundredsand hundreds of pages.
You know, but thank you, Idon't even really believe that
(27:56):
you know one of those peoplelike really, but thank you, I
mean I'm really glad that itcomes across that way it does.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
It really does I have one final question regarding
that.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You say you have other books.
Do you think, besides theobvious content of this you know
this top topic and subjectmatter is there something that
you can point to that you thinkmade this one go the distance?
Was it the editors that youhired?
Was it you're going for yourmaster's?
Was it the storyline that keptinspiring you that you can do
(28:30):
this too, or was it all that, orwas it something else?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, that is a great question and I think that age
played a role because when I wasyoung, with that young adult
book, for instance, like I sentit to maybe one person I think
at the time I was sending toeditors, not agents, but anyway
like the editor said somethinglike nice-ish, like um, yeah,
(28:54):
but could the character be like14 instead of 12?
And I was like, oh, she doesn'tlike it.
I need to to give up.
You know, I didn't have theskin, you know what I mean, and
I didn't have the perseverancethat I think an older person
like me, as an older person,does.
Now I know I don't haveunlimited years to do this
childhood dream, I only have Xnumber of years.
(29:15):
But I will also add, and Ireally wanted to talk about this
, that I think environment is soimportant and when I like, even
though I lived in Manhattan,you know where you would think
it's so cultural and this andthat my real perseverance in
writing of novels really camewhen I moved to Montclair, and a
lot of it is because of WachungBooks and a lot of it is
(29:37):
because of the author talks thatthey hold and that I attended
Because I got to see very closeup, not in the Y, the 92nd
Street Y, where they're wayhundreds of people and they're
like far away.
I paid an expensive ticket and,ooh, you know, um.
So it was in my local communitybookstore and I would go all
(30:00):
the time and I became goodfriends with Lori Albanese,
who's the author of Hester andStolen Beauty, and you know I
saw Christina Baker Kleinpresent her book, alice Elliot
Dark, the author of FellowshipPoint she's amazing.
Nancy Starr Rules for MovingPam Satrin Younger.
(30:21):
You know that was made into aTV show.
All these women Benilde LittleWelcome to my Breakdown and
Louise DeSalvo, so all thesewomen lived in Montclair and
they were doing it and I waslike, oh my God, if they're
doing it, maybe I can do it.
It really was that simple.
You know, I can't say enoughabout watching books and Margo
(30:43):
and Maddie who own it, becauseto me and I've told them this it
was like watching booksuniversity yeah, Like that's how
I felt about it.
I learned more there, probablythan I did in a master's program
.
Wow, that's pretty impressive.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
I mean they need to start charging tuition.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
They are, they're amazing, yeah, they are.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
They are amazing.
I'm not saying that these womenthat I mentioned got me to
their agent and their editor,right, right, not what happened,
but it's just the inspirationand the modeling and the belief
in myself that I needed.
Like I tutor students in highschool and stuff like that, and
everybody's like I'm not a goodwriter.
You know there's no good writer.
(31:28):
Like, just, it's right, thereare no rules, it's your computer
and it's your voice and just gofor it.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I think that's so important to teach students
especially today.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
We just want to hear your voice.
I just want to hear somebodybeing vulnerable and honest.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
I don't care how Exactly, and you know, and not
every book is for every person.
You know what I mean.
Like if somebody is notinterested in Oriana or you know
, in historical fiction, like,don't read my book, read another
book, but read Right, right.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, but it is a very good read and everyone
should read your book.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Thank, you so much.
I'm really grateful to you tooand to Watch On Books for
connecting and hooking you up.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, it's been a pleasure to hear the backstory
and I really do hope that Rachelcontinues to write and you
continue to write and we seethis on the small and big screen
.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Keep us posted about any developments, or whatever
else you're working on, I willand I really mean it.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Email me or contact me if you need anything.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Thank you, oh, before we end, yes, we want to ask you
which we ask our guests andwe've been slipping up a little,
rachel, I know, I know, okay,what are places you love?
Or you know something that youlove about New Jersey?
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I can tell you one thing that I absolutely love and
that a lot of people don't knowabout is Edgewater and
Weehawken, I think it's called.
Okay, All along the HudsonRiver there's's a beautiful, and
they keep building more andconnecting.
There's basically a boardwalk.
Yeah, no stores or you know hotdogs or anything.
But you can walk along theriver and look at the city.
(33:14):
I guess that's very me also,because I still feel very you
know, fond of Manhattan but morefond of New Jersey and the
quiet and the peace.
So I love Edgewater.
I really do.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Oh, okay, that's great.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
We have down there called Rasko's.
The Whole Foods down inEdgewater overlooks Manhattan.
That's all I can think of.
Oh, that's crazy Little tableand eat your salad in New York.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, it's really, that's great.
Well, that's good to know.
Next time we're in Edgewaterwe'll do our grocery shopping.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
There's a Greek restaurant called Molo's that
has the most amazing view ofManhattan.
Yeah, Edgewater.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Wonderful, those are great shout outs.
One I did not know Well thankyou so much for joining us,
Stacey Thank you.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I really appreciate it.
It was so much fun.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
It was so great to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Rachel and Jeanette.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Bye, we'll see you at .
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Watchaun Bookstore.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yes, you will All right, bye-bye.
Hey Jeanette, hi Rachel.
Today we have an excitinginterview with Anastasia Rubis,
who goes by Stacey.
She is the author of Oriana, anovel of Oriana Falaci, and we
had recommended this on ourpodcast recently.
It was recommended to me byWachung Booksellers and I flew
(00:29):
through it and you listened toit.
She has been published in theNew York Times, huffington Post,
new York Observer and literaryjournals.
She graduated from Brown andthen, much later, when she moved
to Montclair, she got amaster's in English from
Montclair State University.
We have such a greatconversation where she shares
(00:50):
how, over 11 years, it took herto get this book published.
Right, talk about perseverance.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, if you're a person that likes to read a book
before it becomes a movie, thisis it.
Do it before it is suggestedthat it's a movie, because it
could be.
This is do it before it is in.
It is suggested that it's amovie because it could be.
You know, she's so inspiring.
I think she said she's in hersixties and that she has been
doing this a long time and thiswas her first debut.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Uh no it is never too late.
It's never too late, Just keepgoing.
She also was saying you know,the only failure is when you
stop and and with that, enjoythis interview.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thank you so much, stacey, for coming on.
Lost in Jersey, we had a reallyinteresting introduction to you
because of Rachel.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, I went to watch on booksellers and I was just
in one of those moods where Ineeded a lot of books and I
always ask them for.
And they recommended yourbeautiful book, oriana, and I
came home and I flew through it.
It was comforting to me in themoment.
It was awesome.
It was about somebody I didn'tknow, oriana Falaci and I.
I then went down a deep dive onwho is the writer, so I got
(02:03):
excited and so thank you so muchfor coming on.
We definitely want to hear howyou got to New Jersey, but then
we also would love to know aboutyour writing career and how you
got to this point.
Why, oriana, all of that?
And then we could talk a littlebit about the book.
Does that sound good?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Of course Sounds great, so where?
Are you from originally, so Iwas born.
I was born and raised in Queensuntil eight years old, but then
we moved to New Jersey, soEnglewood cliffs.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Okay and so.
Yes, so I do know that it'sbeautiful there.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
There's Greek in your background clearly not just
literally, but literally.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
It's Greek Greek.
My parents are from Greece, soI'm first generation and I think
you know their best man movedto Englewood Cliffs and then
they brought their like you knowgoddaughter and cousin and you
know it became this littleenclave in English cliffs of
Greek people.
So you know, along with Italianpeople and Jewish people, and
(03:08):
this was in the 60s and 70s.
Ok, ok, so I did the usualthing.
You know I had an idyllicchildhood, growing up in the
streets with kids and in thewoods.
You know our parents had noidea where we were all day.
You know, playing dodgeball andriding bikes.
But always as I grew and wentto college at Brown in Rhode
(03:29):
Island, I started to get the NewYork.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
you know, hunger you know must live in the city.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
So I moved to Manhattan when I was 28 or nine
and I lived there for 14 yearsand I got married there and I
had a child there and I think itwas the child that did it.
I was like, okay, this isreally hard.
But I mean she was four or fivewhen we finally moved and it
(03:57):
was, you know, the school thingand just the space, a lot.
Yeah, it was so much, but Iadored living in Manhattan.
It was a huge.
I consider it an education,especially for somebody who was
always interested in writing andI didn't really have the
courage to be a writer or thefinances.
So I was in advertising and Iwas in public relations, but in
(04:22):
my free time I was able to go tothe 92nd Street Y and listen to
lectures or the New York PublicLibrary.
There was always somethingcultural going on and I just
considered that time just aneducation.
After Cassandra, my daughterwas like four or five and it was
just the whole schooling issueand we were like you know what?
(04:44):
We'd like?
To be closer to our families.
They were both in New Jersey.
My daughter is an only child.
I wanted her to grow up withher cousin, so we moved back and
we chose Montclair, which I'mjust thrilled about.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, no, I really, it really is so unique.
Did you start writing when youwere in New York City?
Like small, like you know, likearticles, because I know you've
been published in someimpressive journals and
magazines and papers.
Is that where it started, ordid it start when you got here?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
No, it started in New York and I read for the New
York Observer.
If anybody remembers that itwas pink, you know, Totally yeah
.
And then I, how did I even getthis?
But I started writing for theNew York Times, the Sunday paper
, and there was a section calledthe City.
It was a great section and itwas all like human interest
(05:38):
stories about the city.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Okay, I love how you said that, though I love how you
said I just I started writingfor the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, no, no, no, If we're going to do that, I
started writing for DwightMorrow High School.
You know newspaper in Englewood, new Jersey, right, but no so
the New York Times.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
How do you get there?
How did you get to the New YorkTimes?
I?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
remember I'm really trying to remember, but you're
not going to believe where myeditor lived, in Montclair.
So it was this weirdconvergence of things.
I started writing for him andthen I moved to Montclair and
it's tough to keep writingfreelance, it's not like that.
But I wrote about 10 articlesor so for them.
(06:22):
But then you know you'repitching 100 articles.
They say yes to like half ofone you know, so freelance is
really hard.
But anyway, I just want to sayabout Montclair when I moved
here it wasn't just yes, it was,I'm going to talk about
watching books, but I also wentto Montclair state as an adult
and I got a master's in English.
So you know, and as somebodycoming from Brown University,
(06:47):
you know I was a bit of a snobabout education and I have to
tell you that I had the greatestprofessors, you know, scholars,
you know.
One woman was a Shakespearescholar, a man, Jim Nash, is
still in a writing group with me.
He's so phenomenal.
So I just, you know, I reallydove into the culture here and I
(07:08):
really appreciated theuniversity.
It's a university town.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I'm glad you brought that up.
We had the pleasure andprivilege of interviewing the
president of Montclair State,and Jeanette's taken classes
there, right, yeah, yeah, I'm abig fan, big fan, right, yeah,
yeah, I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Big fan.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
It's a great place and I don't know who's listening
, but I think if you're over 60before you can take classes for
free.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, that's incredible.
What do you think you got fromgoing and getting your master's
there?
I mean, like, what was theshift in your writing from?
Because clearly you were goingto talk about your incredible
book here in a minute.
Did that play a pivotal role?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yes, it did A couple of things.
First of all, it put me backinto the culture of thinking and
learning, like just forlearning sake and writing, you
know, and reading justliterature.
I got a master's in English,which is totally useless.
I got a master's in English,which was totally useless, you
know, but it was enriching.
But two things happened thereand there's two people that are
(08:10):
in my writing group, the onlytwo other people.
One's name is Jim Nash,professor Jim Nash, and I took a
course with him that was calledCreative Nonfiction.
Some people call it narrativenonfiction, personal writing,
personal essay, whatever youwant to call it.
(08:38):
Narrative nonfiction, personalwriting, personal essay,
whatever you want to call it,but it's basically writing based
in the truth.
Thing is that I met a peer,another old lady, at school.
No seriously, we were both inforties, possibly fifties, okay,
and her name is JaniceHubschman and the day I met her
(08:59):
we were introducing ourselves toclass and she's like I'm Janice
Hubschman and I write fictionand the way she said it I was
like maybe I write fiction tooand I'm just not willing to say
it.
So she remains, you know, alifelong friend and basically I
would say like a spark to mywriting.
I was very negative aboutwriting because I knew the whole
like publishing, you know, wassuch an ordeal and so full of,
(09:22):
you know, junk, and I was likeready to give up, kind of thing.
And she was like you, youshouldn't give up, you know she,
she's like I would tell you if,but you're, you're writing, no,
she goes, don't give up, keepgoing.
So she really gave me a sparkto keep going.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You need that in this , in that field, so much.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And just to even have one person believe in you is
huge.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
And also she was doing it.
This, this woman, janice,writes short stories.
Her first book just came out afew months ago.
It's so weird.
Our lives are so parallel, butwe're both 64 years old and
publishing our first books.
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's so wonderful and gives so many people hope
right.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I know it gives me personally so much hope.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, if I do anything today here, I do want
to inspire and give hope,because it's just all about, you
know, not giving up having, yes, some people in your life that
are role models or supporters.
And I mean, wait till I tellyou about my publishing journey.
You're not going to believe it.
Let's hear it Want to hear it.
Yes, so basically, I initiallyenvisioned Oriana as a film.
(10:33):
I had written a screenplay thefirst chapter of the book with
the producer and the last arebased on fact.
That did happen.
I was friendly with the head of.
I actually had to interview himfor one of my freelance
articles.
He was the head of 20th CenturyFox.
He was a head of 20th CenturyFox, he was a studio head and he
knew of the Oriana story withAlekos and the love story.
(10:57):
And I got him a meeting withOriana and he wanted to buy the
rights to her life story to do amovie.
She wouldn't do it.
They had a great time meeting.
They had cigars, they hadwhiskey in the middle of the
afternoon meeting.
They had cigars, they hadwhiskey in the middle of the
afternoon, but she wouldn't sellthe rights and then she died
four years later.
So I then was stuck with thisidea that wouldn't let go of me,
(11:19):
because I just love her so muchand think her life story is so
compelling.
So I decided to write ahistorical novel.
Well, if I had known that itwould take 11 years to write and
publish, publish, I probablywould have never done it.
Oh, wow, no, so ignorance is agood thing.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Sometimes it is you know it is well.
I love that that that's also.
You know how the book is kindof framed as well is how I used
it, you use all your failures.
Yeah, it's like a Hollywoodproducer wants to do a story
about Oriana.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
You know, I definitely felt while reading it
like this has to be a movie,like it has to be yeah, it's
like tailor made you know it is.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
She and her life are tailor made, or a series on
Netflix.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I was going to say a series yeah, because then you
can really have she has so muchin her life, so many life phases
that are so fascinating yeah,every episode could be a season
or an episode.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
You know every interview, every.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah, I totally agree and I really I'm still trying,
because I do see it as one ofthe greatest love stories never
told, as one of the greatesthistorical figures that nobody
in America knows about.
She's a household name in Italyand Europe.
Somebody from Puerto Rico toldme she's like a household name
in Latin America.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
But in.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
America, even though the woman lived here lived on
61st Street, owned a townhousefor decades.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
You know it's under the radar here that is.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Well, we could talk about that.
I don't know.
I have, I have my theories,which is a everybody gets 15
minutes of fame and then isforgotten.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
OK.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And B.
She's Italian, thereforeforeign, therefore, and also a
print journalist.
So she's not Barbara Walters,you know she's not on TV.
She's not American and finally,possibly because she's a woman.
You know there's a lot offemale stories that you know get
buried and I love that.
(13:25):
I'm kind of writing in thisgenre of women, rediscovering
and bringing to the foreforgotten women.
Yes, marie Benedict does this alot.
The other Einstein, likeEinstein's wife, was apparently,
you know, a genius.
And my favorite recently, kateWinslet made a movie called Lee,
(13:48):
I can't wait to see this.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
It is so good.
What is it about?
I haven't wait to see this.
I can't wait so good.
What is it about?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I haven't seen this so it's about a woman named Lee
Miller and Kate Winslet playsher, but she also produced the
film.
It's the first time she'sproduced a film and she fought
for years to get it made becauseshe said nobody wants to give
money to a movie about a womanand buy women.
You know it's a thing.
So Lee Miller was, you know,she had many different careers,
(14:17):
she was even a model, but sheended up being a war
photographer in World War II andsome of her photographs of the
Holocaust victims at Dachau shewas like one of the first
photographers there on the dayof liberation and her
photographs are some of like themost famous of World War II and
nobody knows about her.
(14:38):
Wow, that would be good.
The movie is fantastic.
And can I just say that writingand reading and looking at
movies about women like this, Iget something from it.
I get more courage, you know,true, true, and that is, I think
, what kept me going with Orianafor all those years is that,
wow, like we need this rolemodel, like we don't have that
(15:00):
many.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
We need more.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
And I think, if you see it, you can be it, as they
say, and you know, just youngpeople need this kind of role
model.
So let me quickly like tell youwhat happened on my journey to
publication.
So I start this novel 11 yearsago and I have, the writing is
hard.
Of course, you have to research, you have to do stuff.
You know, I went to BostonUniversity.
They have her archives there.
(15:23):
I listened to tapes of herinterviews so I heard her voice.
I went through two freelanceeditors.
That means I hire them and paythem to help me.
Is this good?
Am I doing this?
All right, it's not like I'dever done this before.
And so they give you feedback.
And then I had two differentagents.
(15:45):
All writers think that gettingan agent is the end all and be
all.
Well, I had two, and neitherone of them sold the book.
The second one tried, but itwas during COVID.
It was during a trend inpublishing where editors were
looking for books and they toldme this outright buying about
people of color.
So you know it's a timing thingtoo.
(16:06):
And also they were like oh, welike this, we like the story, we
like your writing, but she'snot well known, so you know.
So the big publishing houseswere not willing to take a risk.
So basically I took the bookback.
Yeah, I separated from my agent.
I was like, thank you very much.
Two or three or four smallpublishers who would accept
manuscripts unagented.
Ok, that's a word, unagented.
(16:41):
It sounds like you weren'tinvited to the party.
Definitely, you know, uninvited, uninvited.
So anyway, so I did that, and Ihappened to hit upon an editor
who publishes what he likes,loved Italy, loved Italians, had
lived in Italy I wasn't afraidof the Italian-ness of Oriana
(17:04):
and his name is Joseph Olshan.
The company is Delphinium Books, Laurie Milken is the publisher
, and within a year the book wasout.
Oh my goodness, yes, but youknow if I hadn't kind of taken
control of the reins?
You know, one thing I thinkwriters do is they rely too much
(17:26):
on the machinery, like theeditor or the agent or the
publisher.
They give away their power.
Yeah, and the other thing I'vedone this whole time is market
and promote the book myself.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, and you're doing a fantastic job with it.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
One of the lessons and I mean I think Oriana knew
this you can't rely on otherpeople to do what you want done.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Sadly no, that's true In so many different ways.
Like with career in anything inthe arts, I pursued acting for
a bit a long time ago and I justthought I was that young, naive
, you know person that said Ineed an agent, I need a manager.
Once I get that, I'll be good.
(18:08):
And then you see other peoplesort of making it and you're
like, oh, they have theperseverance to just walk in a
door that they're unagented oruninvited and do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Where I was such a rule follower, yeah no, it got
in my way, yeah, I mean I'm sureit happens to some people some
of the time where you know youjust put yourself in the hands
of the system and woo you know,good things happen.
But in my experience it's likepushing a boulder up the hill
Right, and it's a constanteffort.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, that is a crazy story.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
11 years yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And all the different iterations.
It's pretty fascinating.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
The main thing is, you can't give up, you know, and
at times I thought I was nutsand that I should give up, you
know, but certain things keepyou going.
One is the subject matter thatI was dealing with.
I was pretty obsessed withOriana for many, many years.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Tell us about.
I read an article about whereyou found a story, so will you
tell us?
I will tell you.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I will tell you.
So I was with my Greekbackground.
We went to Greece every once ina while in the summer.
So one summer I was in Greeceand I was on a remote island
called Pholegandros.
It's near Santorini.
Nobody knows the island andcertainly this was the 80s and
really it was unknown then and Iwas waiting for the ferry boat
(19:37):
to go back to Athens andbrowsing in a souvenir shop and
what do I see?
But the only book in English.
There were no English languagebooks in Greece at the time, you
know, so I bought it.
It was this book.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Oh, this is her.
She's so cool Very cool, that'sthe word.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
She's cool.
Can you say the?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
name of that book so the listeners can see yeah, it's
A man, it's A man, a man.
Yeah, that's so wild becauseand it's a novel by her.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Why do you think that it's?
It's her love story withAlexander Panagoulis and it's
after he.
I'm not going to say whathappens, but she writes a memoir
about their love affair and Ijust love the book.
I'm a big sappy romantic butalso her writing style is so
like opinionated and verypersonal.
(20:25):
I think maybe it's very Italian.
You know she's very likethere's no walls.
You know she's very, verypersonal, very saying it like it
is, it's all out there.
It's all out there and you'relike, wow, I didn't know you
could do that and ooh, brave,and stuff like that.
So when I came back to theStates, I was in my 20s.
(20:47):
Okay, you want to see a pictureof me when I discovered the
book.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
This is on the island .
Yes, please, this is on theisland.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Can you see?
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Look at you, look at you.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
You've got to send us that picture.
I love it.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
You, you've got to send us that picture.
Do you see how, like, seriouslythoughtful, I'm writing,
probably, in my journal?
You know?
Um, I should be having a beer,but instead I'm thinking on this
Island, but anyway.
So I discovered her book.
I go back home Nobody knowsabout her, so I start reading
all her books and, um, I havethem here.
I mentioned them in the noveland she gets her hooks in me and
(21:23):
and the love story, you know,because I was like a real, I was
a moviegoer, I loved Out ofAfrica and Reds and Way we Were,
and all of these are so good.
Yeah, all of these to me werestories about super strong,
special women, extraordinarywomen who, like, did things in
(21:45):
their life, but somehow in theirprivate life they had.
There was a lot of poignancy,some pain, maybe they didn't get
everything they wanted, butthey were unstoppable women.
And I just that combinationreally I love it.
Oh my gosh, she was honest.
Her journalism.
(22:05):
She would use the word I a lotI.
She was in her journalisminterviews.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Which was also unique at that time.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But nobody taught her .
Speaker 1 (22:14):
She was self-taught Right.
I love that she didn't go toschool for it Again, not a rule
follower, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Just went for it and then developed the Q&A format
Exactly, and beyond the Q&Aformat she developed the
provocative question Q&A, likeshe wasn't asking what kind of
tea do you serve at the WhiteHouse?
You know she was asking don'tyou think Vietnam has been a
useless war?
You know, like really thequestions that were on
everybody's mind but nobodyreally had the kind of guts
(22:49):
because it's confrontational.
She was confrontational.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It was interesting with the Kissinger interview how
he probably just thought it wasa fluff piece.
Right, I think that's basically, but it was actually a pivotal,
very critical interview on himand he didn't realize what hit
him after.
You know it was really kind ofsurprised.
I love that that they weresurprised.
(23:13):
I think that's Rachel and I allthe time on our interviews.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
We're just like afterwards we're like God, is
she serious?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
No, there's a book that's her collected interviews
that I highly recommend.
In fact, kian Amampour saidshe'd be required reading for
all journalists.
Kian Amampour considers herlike her great mentor and role
model and said I wanted to beher and you can tell when you
watch Christiane, the way sheposes, that there is a little
(23:44):
bit of Oriana in her.
She's going into theseinterviews with armed guards.
She's in the desertinterviewing Muammar Gaddafi.
She's like you know.
She's on the floor on thecarpet with Ayatollah Khomeini
all men you know, no women, butI think for 11 years.
Another thing that kept megoing is like what makes her
(24:04):
tick?
I want to be unintimidated.
I need to get some of thatvitamin or whatever it is so
like.
How is it that somebody can benot intimidated?
I love that.
Do you feel?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
that it really also has to do with how she grew up.
Yeah, of course during thattime and being.
I love picturing her, you know,running with paper notes to
resist the Nazis and resistfascism.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
It's a girl you know it's her parents, like her
father was a leader of theresistance so he drafted her.
He's like little Ariana on yourbicycle.
Can you deliver this?
You know grenade to resistanceheadquarters or you know
wrapping secret messages insideher braids?
I think a childhood of fear,like burned off her fear, like
(24:53):
when you grow up like that andyou're like facing Nazi
checkpoints and you know riflesand they took her father away
and jailed him for some time.
And you know rifles and theytook her father away and jailed
him for some time.
After that, like to go to theWhite House and interview Henry
Kissinger.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
What's so scary about that, you know your life isn't
in danger you know, it also saidthat it could have been a
little bit to how her fatherhelped impact her cynicism of
what is the truth being toldversus what is really the truth,
and needing to find that typeof you know answer, polly, is
(25:29):
also a driving factor, you'reabsolutely right.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I mean she grew up learning to question authority,
learning to question propaganda,like kind of believing
everything was propaganda rightBecause in school she's like
saying like kind of believingeverything was propaganda right
Because in school she's likesaying you know, I love
Mussolini and Hitler and youknow.
And then she finds out.
So of course after a childhoodlike that you're going to be a
little jaded about what you'rehearing.
(25:53):
The other thing, and let'smention her mother.
Very unusual for a woman inItaly at that time.
Oriana was born in 1929.
That would make her almost 100.
Right now that would make her95.
So her mother comes from evenan older generation.
But she told Oriana don't be aservant like me, work, fly Like.
(26:15):
She pushed her out of the nestinto the world and I think
without that Oriana wouldn'thave left her country probably.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, yeah for sure, and that is unusual and pretty
bold of a mother to say to herchild.
But again, maybe that was all,like you were saying, a result
of what they had all beenthrough and seen about the world
.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Yeah, I mean they were poor.
You know they ran out of foodand also that her mother was an
intellectual.
You know they bought thosebooks, the classics, the leather
bound, and you know Oriana readthem and stuff.
So I don't know.
I was just so impressed byOriana, like not to go to
university and to be sobrilliant that she could be
(26:58):
interviewing the head of China,the head of, you know, india,
the head of the US, and knowingall the history, knowing all the
politics of the time, andthere's no internet where she's
like googling and looking upRight right.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
You forget that.
You know it was much harder toget your facts.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, you know you're such a good writer and you have
so many beautiful turns ofphrase and descriptions to
really pull you from our currentday into that moment of
wherever she's living.
And that's hard to do, and it'syour first novel, it's it's
really quite impressive.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, but, but did I mention the other couple of
novels in my drawer?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, II definitely have.
You know, I wrote a young adultnovel.
I tried to write like more oflike a pop novel.
So they are there, the hundredsand hundreds of pages.
You know, but thank you, Idon't even really believe that
(27:56):
you know one of those peoplelike really, but thank you, I
mean I'm really glad that itcomes across that way it does.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
It really does I have one final question regarding
that.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You say you have other books.
Do you think, besides theobvious content of this you know
this top topic and subjectmatter is there something that
you can point to that you thinkmade this one go the distance?
Was it the editors that youhired?
Was it you're going for yourmaster's?
Was it the storyline that keptinspiring you that you can do
(28:30):
this too, or was it all that, orwas it something else?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, that is a great question and I think that age
played a role because when I wasyoung, with that young adult
book, for instance, like I sentit to maybe one person I think
at the time I was sending toeditors, not agents, but anyway
like the editor said somethinglike nice-ish, like um, yeah,
(28:54):
but could the character be like14 instead of 12?
And I was like, oh, she doesn'tlike it.
I need to to give up.
You know, I didn't have theskin, you know what I mean, and
I didn't have the perseverancethat I think an older person
like me, as an older person,does.
Now I know I don't haveunlimited years to do this
childhood dream, I only have Xnumber of years.
(29:15):
But I will also add, and Ireally wanted to talk about this
, that I think environment is soimportant and when I like, even
though I lived in Manhattan,you know where you would think
it's so cultural and this andthat my real perseverance in
writing of novels really camewhen I moved to Montclair, and a
lot of it is because of WachungBooks and a lot of it is
(29:37):
because of the author talks thatthey hold and that I attended
Because I got to see very closeup, not in the Y, the 92nd
Street Y, where they're wayhundreds of people and they're
like far away.
I paid an expensive ticket and,ooh, you know, um.
So it was in my local communitybookstore and I would go all
(30:00):
the time and I became goodfriends with Lori Albanese,
who's the author of Hester andStolen Beauty, and you know I
saw Christina Baker Kleinpresent her book, alice Elliot
Dark, the author of FellowshipPoint she's amazing.
Nancy Starr Rules for MovingPam Satrin Younger.
(30:21):
You know that was made into aTV show.
All these women Benilde LittleWelcome to my Breakdown and
Louise DeSalvo, so all thesewomen lived in Montclair and
they were doing it and I waslike, oh my God, if they're
doing it, maybe I can do it.
It really was that simple.
You know, I can't say enoughabout watching books and Margo
(30:43):
and Maddie who own it, becauseto me and I've told them this it
was like watching booksuniversity yeah, Like that's how
I felt about it.
I learned more there, probablythan I did in a master's program
.
Wow, that's pretty impressive.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
I mean they need to start charging tuition.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
They are, they're amazing, yeah, they are.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
They are amazing.
I'm not saying that these womenthat I mentioned got me to
their agent and their editor,right, right, not what happened,
but it's just the inspirationand the modeling and the belief
in myself that I needed.
Like I tutor students in highschool and stuff like that, and
everybody's like I'm not a goodwriter.
You know there's no good writer.
(31:28):
Like, just, it's right, thereare no rules, it's your computer
and it's your voice and just gofor it.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I think that's so important to teach students
especially today.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
We just want to hear your voice.
I just want to hear somebodybeing vulnerable and honest.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
I don't care how Exactly, and you know, and not
every book is for every person.
You know what I mean.
Like if somebody is notinterested in Oriana or you know
, in historical fiction, like,don't read my book, read another
book, but read Right, right.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, but it is a very good read and everyone
should read your book.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Thank, you so much.
I'm really grateful to you tooand to Watch On Books for
connecting and hooking you up.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, it's been a pleasure to hear the backstory
and I really do hope that Rachelcontinues to write and you
continue to write and we seethis on the small and big screen
.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Keep us posted about any developments, or whatever
else you're working on, I willand I really mean it.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Email me or contact me if you need anything.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Thank you, oh, before we end, yes, we want to ask you
which we ask our guests andwe've been slipping up a little,
rachel, I know, I know, okay,what are places you love?
Or you know something that youlove about New Jersey?
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I can tell you one thing that I absolutely love and
that a lot of people don't knowabout is Edgewater and
Weehawken, I think it's called.
Okay, All along the HudsonRiver there's's a beautiful, and
they keep building more andconnecting.
There's basically a boardwalk.
Yeah, no stores or you know hotdogs or anything.
But you can walk along theriver and look at the city.
(33:14):
I guess that's very me also,because I still feel very you
know, fond of Manhattan but morefond of New Jersey and the
quiet and the peace.
So I love Edgewater.
I really do.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Oh, okay, that's great.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
We have down there called Rasko's.
The Whole Foods down inEdgewater overlooks Manhattan.
That's all I can think of.
Oh, that's crazy Little tableand eat your salad in New York.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, it's really, that's great.
Well, that's good to know.
Next time we're in Edgewaterwe'll do our grocery shopping.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
There's a Greek restaurant called Molo's that
has the most amazing view ofManhattan.
Yeah, Edgewater.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Wonderful, those are great shout outs.
One I did not know Well thankyou so much for joining us,
Stacey Thank you.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I really appreciate it.
It was so much fun.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
It was so great to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Rachel and Jeanette.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Bye, we'll see you at .
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Watchaun Bookstore.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yes, you will All right, bye-bye.
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