June 24, 2025 • 38 mins
Ready to go from hopeful scribbler to published author? The Book Doctors, Arielle Eckstut and David Henry Sterry, are here to spill the literary tea. With years of industry smarts, hard-earned wisdom, and plenty of laughs, they break down what it really takes to get your book into readers' hands.
In this episode, you'll learn:
📚 The two A’s every author must master: Authority (why you) and Audience (who’s reading)
🔍 How to make your book “unique but familiar” — with just the right comparison titles
🚀 Why self-publishing is having its main-character moment (and how publishers are taking notice)
💪 David’s epic tale of 113 rejections — and why perseverance pays off
👯‍♂️ The power of a “dream team” — from cheerleaders to tough critics
đź“ť Why protecting your work from feedback is a rookie mistake
📺 Submit for their new TV show, America’s Next Great Author — imagine Top Chef meets Queer Eye... but for books!
Whether you're plotting your debut or dusting off a long-lost draft, this episode is your literary launchpad.
Links:
America's Next Great Author Website
The Essential Guide to Getting Your Book Published
Follow us: Website | Apple | Spotify | Audible | Youtube | Youtube | Instagram | Facebook | Tiktok
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey Jeanette, hi Rachel.
Today we met with theco-founders of the Book Doctors,
and their names are ArielleEkstedt and David Henry Sterry.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
They give so many great tips about how to publish
a book for everyone, and I meanhonestly.
If you even have an inklingdesire to write a book, you need
to listen to this podcast andyou all should get their book.
Their book is called theEssential Guide to Getting your
Book Published.
I think it is.
Yes, exactly that, and it waspublished in 2005.
And they've updated it for thecurrent world that we're in for
(00:33):
publishing, and they both have along history.
They are experts in this field.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes, there are, right there, published writers
themselves, and also Ariel was aliterary agent for a very, very
long time, so they know the insand outs of going from pitch or
idea to publish and if you needtheir help, well, everyone
needs their help because it'snot an intuitive.
It's not intuitive and they'reboth really warm and engaging
(01:00):
and funny.
They'll handle you with care.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, and be open-minded, because I think
that was probably one of thebiggest tips there was.
Like you need to work withpeople.
Enjoy this interview.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Welcome, Arielle and David.
Thank you so much for coming onLost in Jersey.
We're very excited to talk toyou about all things books,
literature, publishing, TV, itseems, all that kind of stuff.
So we're excited to get goingon that.
But first, before we do, wealways ask our guests how did
you get to New Jersey and areyou from New Jersey and if not,
(01:38):
where are you from?
I think you should start,because you're the native.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I was born in Dover General Hospital 100 years ago.
No wait, yes, All right, I wasborn in Dover General Hospital.
My parents are immigrants.
They moved to New Jersey toexplore the American dream.
I was born here.
For the first seven years of mylife I lived in New Jersey.
I honestly never thought Iwould come back.
(02:03):
I lived all over America.
Then, when we found out we werepregnant well, she was more
pregnant than I I saidimmediately oh, we got to move
back to the East Coast becauseboth of her parents are here.
I never had grandparents and Iwanted my kid to have
grandparents.
We have to move back to theEast Coast and she was very
happy to do that and at the sametime, we told people we're
(02:27):
moving back.
One of her clients, who's nowour best friend, basically said
oh, you live in a house with twofamily house the other side of
the wall.
These old people want to selltheir house and you can get it.
It's falling apart inside.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That's the deal, right.
Everybody wants that deal, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
And move to Montclair , new Jersey, and I'm like, oh
my God, I'm going to have myJersey boy going back to Jersey
and I'm so happy I did.
I love living in the GardenState.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That's great.
So I mean, it's full circle.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
So, and now you've been here.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
How long have you been?
Speaker 4 (03:02):
back For almost 18 years now.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
The longest place I've ever lived now Montclair
and we had no idea how manyamazing artists of all kinds,
particularly writers, editorsyou shake a tree and an editor
and an artist and a musicianfalls out of it in Montclair.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's true.
And then a new one is bornevery second.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I am from the city and I'm going to admit that I
had Jersey bias, that's thestain that all New Yorkers have.
And part of the reason for thatis I grew up on the way upper
west side, at 119th Street.
It was such a wonderfulneighborhood to grow up in and
(03:45):
when we came, when we decided tomove back east, we did look in
the city, but first of all wecouldn't afford anything.
When we came and looked atMontclair, I felt like it was so
reminiscent of growing up onthe Upper West Side in the 70s
and 80s, when I grew up, and theartists, the musicians, those
small shops, all that kind ofcommunity.
(04:06):
So, yeah, I now have no desireto move back to the city.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
The reason that you came on my radar is that we live
in the same town and I saw thatyou did.
Is it a pitch palooza at thelibrary recently?
And tell us a little bit abouthow you got into it and, you
know, maybe give us some tips.
Give authors or people tips inthis industry.
But first tell us how you gotinto becoming the book.
(04:35):
Doctors is what I've seen.
Whose idea was it and how didit come about?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So originally I was the writer, she was my agent,
and then we got married and shefired me as a client.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Probably a good idea.
Were you an unruly client, orit's just like maybe it
shouldn't be Terrible.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Terrible client.
I was so bad.
Hopefully I'm a better husband.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Actually he was an amazing client before he became
my husband.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yes, that makes sense .
I had a book called theEssential Guide to Getting your
Book Published.
We had to figure out a way ofpromoting the book.
It's nonfiction.
Our publisher at that time,workman the greatest publisher
sent us out a 25-city tour.
So what are we going to do?
(05:22):
Came up with an idea that camefrom a party where there was a
bunch of drunken writerspitching her books because they
found out she was an agent.
I'm like, ooh, we should do anevent where writers get a minute
to pitch us their books.
We, the experts, would critiquetheir pitch in a kind and
gentle way to let them know howto make it better.
We'd have a winner at the endand we would turn that winner
onto an agent or a publisher whowas right for their work.
(05:43):
And the first one we ever didwas at the Strand Bookstore 18
miles of books and there was aline outside.
We were very nervous, like, isthis going to put out petty
fours and everything?
And he was all nervous, peterWorkman.
There was a line outside andI'm like, oh, that's probably
for they're doing a grumpy catevent or something Like what are
you guys waiting for?
(06:03):
We're here to pitch our book,man.
I'm like what it was packed.
It was so fun and so amazingand we heard incredible pitches
from all kinds of people and atthat moment I thought, oh, this
should be a TV show.
And as soon as I came off thestage, someone said dude, you
should make a TV show out ofthis.
So we did then.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Wait, make a TV show out of this.
So we did then Wait, I'm goingto stop you because you're going
too far in advance?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
No, because they asked about that.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
So that was in about 2005.
The meantime I'd actually leftpublishing and I started a
company called Little Mismatchedthat sold socks that don't
match.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I saw that and it's so awesome because my daughters
always loved wearing mixed matchsocks.
They don't ever wear them as apair.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah.
So I had this company and wehad a lot of success and we sold
the company to a large privateequity company, which then fired
me.
So we had a one-year-olddaughter at that point.
So it was kind of a blessing indisguise because I had to be
(07:12):
home and we got to be hometogether, because David was
working from home at that pointand we had this event that we
were doing all around thecountry Chipaloozas and so we
said you know what?
We're just going to start abusiness because so many people
need help getting their bookspublished.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
We discovered there was an enormous, huge swath of
the population that wanted towrite books, from 12-year-old
kids to 94-year-old Navyveterans and everything in
between.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
All different types of people.
So we set up a consultingbusiness that helped people from
idea through and pastpublication of how to get
successfully published, and wehad this book, as David
mentioned as well.
So that was like our callingcard was.
We had this doorstopper of abook with all this information
(08:02):
and the Pitchapaloozas becamethis incredible event that we
did everywhere, from ruralAlaska, where we got a grant to
go to tiny libraries, some ofthem in towns as small as 40
people, to major cities, toevery place in between major
(08:27):
cities to every place in between, and what we found was is that
book publishing basicallypublishes people who have
connections to book publishing.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
You got to get somebody to get in the door.
The gatekeepers don't wantpeople that didn't go to, that
aren't their uncle or theircousin or went to an MFA program
or Harvard.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Right right, we were discovering the most incredible
talent.
Amazing, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
South Dakota, wichita , kansas, you name it the border
of Mexico and America in theSouthwest.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, and because these people were so talented,
we were helping them to getsuccessfully published.
Some of those people have nowgone on to be some of the most
award-winning best-sellingauthors today.
Incredible.
That must feel so good.
It's the best feeling.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
It is the best feeling.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
And so now, to tie it back to what David was saying
about people saying oh, you gotto make a television show out of
this.
And so people then were like we, you got to make a television
show out of this.
And so people then were like wedon't want to watch people
writing, and we were like wedon't want to watch people
writing.
And we are not teaching peoplethe craft of writing.
What we do as book doctors iswe are teaching people how to go
(09:39):
from talented amateurs tosuccessful professional authors.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
And these principles apply to any business you want
to start.
Anything you do, whether it'sbeing a plumber or being a
writer or being a lawyer, you'vegot to figure out how do I take
my skills and find an audiencefor what my business is, explain
who I am and what I dosuccessfully.
How do I get clients?
How do I get clients?
How do I keep clients?
How do I grow a business?
These principles apply to somany different fields.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Question on that, just the audience, because I
took a writing workshop when Ilived abroad for two years, in
Amsterdam, and it was the firsttime I'd ever taken any sort of
writing class and I loved it.
But I remember there was thisconversation back and forth
about do you write with anaudience in mind?
And then a lot of people arelike no, never do that, Never
(10:32):
try to tailor your stuff to anaudience, and then people who
would not tailor anything toanybody else being frustrated
that they could never getpublished.
What is that rule for audience?
Speaker 4 (10:44):
awareness.
It's a balance that has to bestruck.
The thing is is that we live ina different reality than we've
ever lived in before when itcomes to artistic creation and
in publishing right now, if youwanted to get published by a
publisher that you know the nameof Penguin, random House, simon
Schuster, etc.
(11:05):
Having a great book is a verysmall piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
My terrible joke about that is the best way to
get published by Mr Harper andMr Collins are to walk in the
room with one of the Kardashiansand someone from the Lego
Corporation.
That's how you get a book deal.
It's so sad to say that, butthose giant publishers are
looking for it because they'reall owned now by corporations.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
So we would love to say never think about your
audience, Just write whateveryou want to write.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And you can do that.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
If you don't care about getting published or
publish yourself, yeah, and youdon't-.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Because that's a-.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Right, you could self-publish, right?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yes, and used to be.
Self-publishing was theredheaded stepchild of the
publishing business.
Not anymore.
Every publisher has somebody intheir organization who scours
self-published authors who'vebecome wildly successful.
That's another way to get agood deal no-transcript.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
The vast majority of people not just who self-publish
, who get published are notwildly successful.
What we teach in workshops, thepoint of the Pitchapalooza, is
really to help people understandthe business side of this,
because we want their art tothrive, they have to understand
(12:22):
and, to your point of this class, if you don't know who your
audience is, where they are,there's just so many barriers.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And we also define success Right, whatever it means
to you.
You might just want to have abook for your grandchildren
that's on.
That's a success for you.
You don't need Mr Harper and MrCollins to do that.
We can do that.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Right, I feel like a lot of or not needed to make
your living, because they willsay I guess Liz Gilbert always
says don't depend on your artfor income.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Right, I mean some people.
We get emails that say, oh,I've just taken a second
mortgage on my house and when mybook comes out I'll be able to
buy an island.
We're like, no, don't do that.
No, there's so many people whowant to make a living as a
writer and we always say, like Ihave a list of different ideas
(13:19):
that I want to make into booksand I analyze, like some books I
say are love books.
I just do them because I loveto do it and I don't care if I
sell a copy.
Books are books that I reallythink have a chance at breaking
out.
And, weirdly, the books thatare my love books are the ones
that have blown up.
The biggest attention I got fora book was one that was so
(13:42):
outside of the mainstream ofpublishing.
There was no chance that thiswas going to blow up and yet it
ended up on the front cover ofthe Sunday New York Times book
review.
So you don't know, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Well, to that point you have to let it out into the
world and see, you never know.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
So I think that, yes, I agree that I think many
people have different reasonswhy they want what they want to
get from their book publishing,but I do think most everybody
wants it to be read and it to beseen and for people to take
notice in some way.
And, of course, new York Timesbestseller is always the, you
know, the cherry on top right.
Everybody wants that.
But let's just say you'vewritten a book and you're ready
(14:21):
to start putting it out there.
What are the first things thatyou would tell someone that they
need to?
I mean, there's the title,there's the pitch, what's the
basics?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So what's interesting is I would start way before the
person has written.
When considering your idea fora book and this is again, not if
you're just like.
You have something in you, youhave to get it out, doesn't
matter, but you want to try andsell a book.
That the first question.
We on your years in thehealthcare industry and you have
(15:08):
something to say based on yourexpertise.
Okay, that's great, that makessense.
Let's say you're a nurse andyou're writing a thriller and
the main character is a nurse.
Because you're a nurse, youknow things about the nursing
industry that could make a greatplot, right, yeah, that all
(15:30):
makes sense.
You're the person to write thatbook.
But let's say you're writing ahealth book but you have no
expertise in health whatsoever,or I'll say we get this, which I
think happens nowadays.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
There's so many people who want to write kids'
books and they think that theirauthority is.
I'm a parent and I told a storyto my child that they love.
That doesn't make you an adultperson to write a kids' book,
and yet it seems like we get anemail with people saying that.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Second question is who is your audience?
All the time we hear queries orpitches where people say this
is like no book ever written.
This is a book for everyone.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
That's the kiss of death it is don't say that, say
that this is unique, or what ifyou're saying it's unique.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
You could be like.
You know, my audience is thelove steampunk romance, which is
a very like specific thing,that where there's a very clear
audience and it's easy to reachthem because they they listen to
the same channel social media,all that kind of stuff.
But you could say mine isunique because it, you know, it
(16:43):
takes on the plot of a GeorgeEliot novel or something like
you know.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So what we always say to people is we want something
that's unique and yet familiar.
Okay, if it's too unique,you're like what is this?
I've never seen anything likethis.
I don't even know what this is,and people are going to
distance themselves from that.
If it's too familiar, it's acliche.
It's something that is, and theway you explain this to people
(17:09):
it's like this, but it'sdifferent, like that, and we
call those using comp titlescomparative titles.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I was going to ask about that because I know that
in film and TV that's a lot oftimes what the pitches are.
It's like Legally Blonde meets-.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
One of the greatest ones in movies is.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Jaws in Outer Space.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
It's the greatest pitch.
That's the movie Alien.
Yeah, Right now I'm reading abook and I'm saying it's like
Catcher in the Rye if StephenKing told it.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Like Catcher in the Rye if Stephen.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
King told it, two things represent Catcher in the
Rye, alienated, sarcasticteenager at a boarding school.
Stephen King, supernatural,crazy things are going to happen
.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah, and titles signal where a book is going to
end up in the bookstore and theyalso show your depth of
knowledge of your category ofbook.
So people say this is HarryPotter meets the Bible, then
you're like you don't knowanything about your category of
book.
So people say this is HarryPotter meets the Bible, then
you're like you don't knowanything about your category.
But if they dial down tosomething very specific in the
middle grade area or whatever,then we can see okay, you read
(18:16):
in this area, you know who youraudience is, you know what the
competition is for your book.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Right, it's a shorthand of letting you know if
you want an agent, if you wanta publisher, they're overworked.
They need a way to explain itto other people.
Then, if those two thingsresonate, then they unpack it
and go into the details of it.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
So you have to package the pitch and package
your idea in a way that it makesit really simple for the
publisher to understand what todo with you and what to do with
it.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
And when you say what to do with you, you have to
understand what to do with you.
Yes, you do Because thepublisher, even the biggest
publishers, they're more like aprinting and distribution
service and, except for thebiggest authors, you are not
going to get a marketing andpublicity plan.
It's really on the author'sshoulders.
(19:10):
And all of these things thatwe've talked about the bio, the
competition, the comps, theaudience that turn into your
publicity and marketing plan allof those tools funnel into that
.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And a lot of amateur writers plan All of those tools
funnel into that and a lot ofamateur writers, talented
amateurs, have this still, thisidea, like we get saying all the
time once my book is out, I'dbe more than willing to go on.
Good Morning America, I'mavailable at any moment.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, that's great, because I was worried that you
might have a conflict, but Ithink it's also because we've
grown up with or at least for meI grown up with envisioning the
publishing industry a certainway, due to film and television
and reading the New Yorker orwhatever, and then I would
assume that sort of fantasticalvision of, oh okay, well, once I
(19:59):
land this, then I'll get that,and then it's just you have to
follow these steps.
It's good that you're breakingit down and saying, actually no,
I'll get that, and then it'sjust you have to follow these
steps.
It's good that you're breakingit down and saying, actually no,
that's not.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
We should talk about blurbs.
You know the little jacketthat's somebody else saying
you're awesome, which, as we allknow, is better than you saying
you're awesome, because itleaves you the greatest blurb
you can have is when someonesays oh, this is a great book.
It's like this meets that it'son the book now and somebody
else said it and we say get ablurb before you even go to an
(20:29):
agent.
So that's the first thing theyread at the top of the email.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
A bookseller?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
it doesn't even matter who adopter, whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Actually the Stephen King came from an author friend
that David asked to blurb hisbook.
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
So you go into the agent's office with somebody
else already saying how awesomeyou are.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
That is really good advice.
So you have to then ship yourbook out to some people to give
you a blurb before you evenstart the pursuit of a publisher
.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, let's talk about building what we call a
dream team.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Writing's a solitary affair most times, but we tell
people join a writer's groupFirst thing I do when I go to a
new city.
I went to San Francisco.
We moved there.
I got into a writer's group andamong the people there was this
guy who was ridiculouslyhandsome, so talented, so nice,
so kind.
They're like there was this guywho was ridiculously handsome,
so talented, so nice, so kind,like if this guy gets a break,
(21:28):
he's going to be huge.
Well, his name is KhaledHosseini and he was the kite
runner.
Now I'm friends with the guyand and if you look on the
essential guide to getting yourbook published, there's a blurb
from Khaled Hosseini now I nowit's good to know how that
happened joining a writer'sgroup also.
Like it was every Tuesday, I wasin this writer's group by about
(21:48):
Sunday.
I'm like, oh God, I have got tohave something good to come in
with.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
That does keep you accountable.
And to that point, Khaled, whenDavid met him, was emergency
room doctor with two youngchildren.
Doctor with two young childrenand he would get up at four
o'clock or 4.30 every morning towrite for an hour before he had
to get the kids ready, all thatkind of stuff, and then go do
surgery for 10 hours and that'show he was able to produce in
(22:17):
order to have his wonderfulbooks.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
So, on your dream team, go join a writer's group.
Have somebody who's acheerleader, who helps what you
do and knows how to articulatehow awesome you are.
Have a Debbie Downer who canarticulate why you suck in a
really concise and educated way.
Have somebody who is good withgraphic design so you can send
(22:44):
stuff out that looks really cool.
And I have about 10 writersthat I send them my stuff and
they critique it for me and Iread their stuff and critique it
for them.
It's super important to have alot of different people read
your work before you send it outand a lot of people think, oh,
someone's going to steal my work.
No, no one's going to.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
That's one of the biggest things that we hear is
oh, I'm not going to share mywork with anyone because we're
afraid of the idea of beingtaken.
That, to me, is the single bestway to never get published.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Well, I also know a little bit.
I think that there's also aprotection, self-protection
going on, that they don't wantcriticism, they don't want
someone to change what theirvision is, and it's just a
protectionary thing too, and Ithink that you're saying that
that's probably a bad thing.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Yeah, so let's speak to that for one second, because
rejection and perseverance aretwo sides of the same coin.
One way to go from rejection toperseverance is to learn how to
become resilient from rejection, and the only way to do that is
to keep being rejected.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
This book that I had.
That blew up.
It was rejected by 113.
I was already a bestsellingauthor from the top of the food
chain, to like Bob's publishingcompany.
Bob lives in his mom's basement.
This guy wouldn't publish mybook, but every time I got
rejected I said to people whatcan I do to make it better?
Oh, you need a better.
I made a better title.
(24:17):
Oh, you need some stars fromthis little world you're talking
about.
So I got a couple of stars bythe 114th time I sent it out to
the right person.
Finally, this thing was sotight because every time I got
rejected I learned a littlesomething about my book.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Well, I have a question about that really
quickly before.
So you said you sent it out to113.
I think you're exaggerating.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
No, I can show you the list.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Okay, by the time you have crafted your revisions and
made it all this tight, haven'tyou run out of publishers?
Do you go back and startsending them again to the same
people and say I've made somechanges.
Can you take a look again?
You actually can do that.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
You can, but that's highly unlikely.
That's not how I did it.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I told you so what did you?
How did you?
Is there 114,?
Like that 114th clearly wasn'tthe one you wanted, right?
Oh, it's true.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
So that was.
That's part of the interestingpart of the story, and this goes
back to all the other thingsthat we're talking about about
audience and you know, findingthe right match for your books.
So the best publisher for youis the publisher who specializes
in your kind of book and knowswhere your audience is.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Also continuously.
Whenever I would meet somebodyor see an old friend, they'd go
what are you doing?
Well, I'm writing a book andhere's what it's about.
I tell everybody this isn't apiece of advice I give to any
writer.
When someone asks you what areyou up to, your answer is I'm
writing a book.
And if they ask you and only ifthey ask you what is the book
about?
(25:54):
You got one minute to tell themwhat your book is about,
because you never know, youmight be talking to somebody
whose cousin works for HarperCollins.
This happened to me on anairplane.
You don't want to be the personwho goes.
What my book is about?
Oh, it's about a dog and a guy,and this really cool stuff
(26:17):
happens and 10 minutes lateryou're like and the dog does
this to the guy.
I finally, at a midnight moviein New York, I ran to an old
friend.
I said, oh.
She said, what are you doing?
I thought, oh, I'm doing thisbook and here's what it is.
She said, oh, I've got theperfect person for you and I'm
like awesome, and I sent it tothe perfect person.
Within a week I had a book deal.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
My goodness, yeah.
So it's good that they can cometo you and your book and figure
out actual steps to take inorder to get there, because it
will not come naturally.
It doesn't come naturally to meand again, this is across the
board.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
You have a product you want to launch.
You have a restaurant you wantto open Any of these things.
Most people don't go out andget the necessary advice or
training or what have you, andthen their restaurant is closed
in three months.
There's no secret sauce.
I really do have to say and wetalk about this all the time 90%
(27:35):
of it is perseverance aboveeverything else.
And we say there are two kindsof perseverance there's smart
perseverance and stupidperseverance.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
That's really hard to know which one.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well, we'll give you an example of stupid
perseverance.
We'll say I've sent out theexact same pitch to 100 people
and no one has responded.
Same pitch to 100 people and noone has responded.
Well, I guess I'll send it outto 100 more.
No, no, no, no.
You got to evolve it and learnhow to make it better.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Okay, so you're called the book doctors.
People can come to you, canhire you.
Is it the both of you that theyhire?
Do they come in?
Is it like therapy that you sitdown and you say where are you
at?
I'm going to do 10 sessions toget myself from this funk of not
being able to publish.
How does it work so?
Speaker 4 (28:26):
we, it's both of us and then we also have a small
team of other people and we allhave specialties that we do so
depending on the type of bookthat it is.
So David is far morefiction-based than me.
I'm far more nonfiction-based,but, for example, the two of us
(28:48):
and our colleague Laura Chenoneall do memoir.
So there are certain things,but depending on what the memoir
is about, we would choose whois the best person.
And then we also have a coupleyounger people on staff who do
what we call beta reads, whichare just like a quick read with
a short letter to tell you areyou on the right track?
(29:11):
Are there certain?
And it's much less expensive.
And then we also have someoneon staff who helps people find
the right publisher for them andthe right agent for them,
because that kind of researchcan be really, really difficult.
So, depending on what you'vecut like, david and I both work
with people on pitches acrossthe board pitches slash query
(29:31):
letters.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Some clients we have once a week we meet Right and
for these writers they know theyhave to have something prepared
and I give them some.
People need deadlines.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
How often do people come in where they have their
idea and then you actually helpthem shift that idea to
something else?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Master of that.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
That's my like doing that and setting up the
structure for a book.
I'm the daughter of anarchitect.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
She's a literary architect.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
I'm a literary architect, it's like my favorite
thing to do, and sometimespeople come with books that are
all over the place.
A skill that I have is to beable to see thematically how all
the stories fit together andhow they build, climax, finish,
all that kind of stuff.
So David has such a gift forlanguage and the musicality of
(30:29):
some prose and for stakes.
How do you build the stakes upso that you Raise her stakes?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah Well, when I first came to Ariel as a writer
didn't know her at all.
I had written what really wasan experimental novel and I
didn't even know it because Ididn't know how to write a book.
It took me nine months to gether as my agent that's another
story for another day.
When we had our lunch writeragent lunch and she eventually
(31:01):
said to me what is this?
Usually, first, novels areabout someone's life.
Did you really murder four ofyour stepfathers?
I'm like, no, I didn't at all.
No, it's fiction she said well,what is your story?
And I told her my real book.
I wanted to write that.
I was too scared to write abouthorrible things that happened
(31:22):
to me when I was 17 years old,like unspeakable terrible things
.
And she's like, oh, david,that's the book you have to
write.
And so I abandoned that otherbook and went about writing this
memoir.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
And then this memoir became a national bestseller.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
And your whole life kind of it also helped heal me
from these horrible, traumaticthings that happened to me.
It was essential in myredemption the love of a good
woman and a good agent.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Amen, and they're the same person.
I mean, how lucky is that?
That's the shocking thing.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
That's pretty great.
I mean, how lucky is that.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
That's the shocking thing.
That's pretty great.
Well, this has been so helpful.
I mean, I think I cancompletely see why there was a
line wrapped around the buildingand why it's been so successful
.
You guys give such great tipsand such, I mean, and also it's
coming from you know people who,like you said, you know you are
the expert in this, so I cansee why it's working, and so you
(32:19):
do know your audience.
That one would say, as you saidyou should.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
I want to say one more thing before we sign off.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
We are 15 years.
I pitched this television show15 years.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, is this the America's Next Great Author?
Yeah, I wanted to ask you aboutthis.
I'm glad you brought it up andfinally, I got Ariel on board.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
We got one of her partners, kwame Alexander, who's
an amazing force of nature,then she got on board and then,
once we had that team, then webuilt this whole giant team of
amazing people and we pitched itto so many places I can't even
tell you.
And we finally found a streamercalled Canopy with a K, and
(33:03):
they have a gigantic catalog ofTV and movies.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
They are the worldwide partner to libraries
for streaming television andmovies, so it was a perfect fit.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
We're doing a story, a show about books and they're
with libraries.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
It's a perfect fit and we signed the deal.
We're in a story, a show aboutbooks and they're with libraries
.
It's a perfect fit.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
And we signed the deal.
We're in pre-production.
We're having meetings every day.
It's so exciting.
Now the show is evolving intosomething else.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
And it's a very similar thing.
We thought we wanted Hulu orNetflix or whatever, but
actually this is the streamer.
That's our core audience.
It is yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Is it going to be like American Idol for books or
something like that?
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Here's our elevator pitch.
It's Top Chef meets Queer Eye,and the reason for that is that
it follows a similar format toTop Chef, but there are no
eliminations, because we aretrying to build community and
help people grow, not to tellthem to go home.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yeah, don't take your knives and leave.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
So the whole point is for the group of people who end
up in the house to support eachother, to get to a place where
they can all help each other.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
And then in the end we will have a winner.
We will get a cash prize and apublishing contract.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
So sign up for America's.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Next, great Author, you can go to our website Okay.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
For casting calls and all of that
americasnextgreathorcom.
We've got a newsletter, allthat kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
That's the ultimate book, club or group power group
to get involved in there.
You have that kind of supportto get your book done.
That's amazing.
Well, that's exciting socongratulations on that.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
That's huge Thank you .
Speaker 4 (34:55):
This was so fun, by the way, you guys are really fun
, thank you, Thank you, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
This was so fun.
By the way, you guys are reallyfun.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
This was such a greatconversation, but we do have one
last question.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, yeah, our last question is please tell us
something that you love aboutNew Jersey.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Okay, so I have an answer for this and then a
little plug at the end.
Okay, sure, I grew up in NewYork City.
Then we moved to the Bay Areafor seven years and we lived on
a block similar to the block welive on in Montclair and we did
not know any of our neighbors.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Not one single person in California.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
People so radically unfriendly and unneighborly and
we moved to Montclair and withinthe first week we had cookies,
invites, I'm like Ariel, why arethese people bringing me
potlucks?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Why are they?
What do they want from me?
And she's like no, they'rebeing friendly, they're being
neighborly.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I'm like oh my God.
And I just find sometimes youknow New Jersey, new Yorkers,
can be a little rough orwhatever, but the warm heart is
there in a way.
That is so, david.
I love the Bay Area for manythings, but I would never want
(36:09):
to live there again for thatreason.
So I think it's super specialand my plug maybe our plug is
very obvious for us which isWachung Bookstore.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I was going say that's my place.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
You took my line.
So the first people that wewent and introduced ourselves to
when we got here it's the mostspecial community hub.
We need it in the face of theAmazons of the world.
Please don't buy your books onAmazon and go to Watchung
Booksellers.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
You know she stole my entire speech that I was going
to give at the end about Watchon Booksellers.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Well, you will be very glad to know that whenever
we have an author on our link onour website always links to
Watch on Booksellers.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
I have to make one more plug.
The winner from Montclair fromtwo years ago is Mr Gill Dan
Gill Yay, I know From Glenfield,who taught at Glenfield for 53
years.
His book is coming out.
The one that he pitched at thePitchapalooza, the first week in
(37:12):
July from Little Brown forYoung Readers.
It's called no More Chairs.
It's so beautiful, so exciting.
I was so excited about that,yeah.
So I hope everybody will go andpre-order the book and help Dan
create a bestseller out of thissuper important story.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
During this time where the world is filled with
you, we should have him on, askhim to come on the podcast you
guys are awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Thank you so much for coming on.
This was such a greatconversation.
We appreciate it, Thank you.
This podcast was produced byRachel Martens and Jeanette
Afsharian.
You can find us on Spotify,iTunes and Buzzsprout.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
Hey Jeanette, hi Rachel.
Today we met with theco-founders of the Book Doctors,
and their names are ArielleEkstedt and David Henry Sterry.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
They give so many great tips about how to publish
a book for everyone, and I meanhonestly.
If you even have an inklingdesire to write a book, you need
to listen to this podcast andyou all should get their book.
Their book is called theEssential Guide to Getting your
Book Published.
I think it is.
Yes, exactly that, and it waspublished in 2005.
And they've updated it for thecurrent world that we're in for
(00:33):
publishing, and they both have along history.
They are experts in this field.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes, there are, right there, published writers
themselves, and also Ariel was aliterary agent for a very, very
long time, so they know the insand outs of going from pitch or
idea to publish and if you needtheir help, well, everyone
needs their help because it'snot an intuitive.
It's not intuitive and they'reboth really warm and engaging
(01:00):
and funny.
They'll handle you with care.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, and be open-minded, because I think
that was probably one of thebiggest tips there was.
Like you need to work withpeople.
Enjoy this interview.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Welcome, Arielle and David.
Thank you so much for coming onLost in Jersey.
We're very excited to talk toyou about all things books,
literature, publishing, TV, itseems, all that kind of stuff.
So we're excited to get goingon that.
But first, before we do, wealways ask our guests how did
you get to New Jersey and areyou from New Jersey and if not,
(01:38):
where are you from?
I think you should start,because you're the native.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I was born in Dover General Hospital 100 years ago.
No wait, yes, All right, I wasborn in Dover General Hospital.
My parents are immigrants.
They moved to New Jersey toexplore the American dream.
I was born here.
For the first seven years of mylife I lived in New Jersey.
I honestly never thought Iwould come back.
(02:03):
I lived all over America.
Then, when we found out we werepregnant well, she was more
pregnant than I I saidimmediately oh, we got to move
back to the East Coast becauseboth of her parents are here.
I never had grandparents and Iwanted my kid to have
grandparents.
We have to move back to theEast Coast and she was very
happy to do that and at the sametime, we told people we're
(02:27):
moving back.
One of her clients, who's nowour best friend, basically said
oh, you live in a house with twofamily house the other side of
the wall.
These old people want to selltheir house and you can get it.
It's falling apart inside.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That's the deal, right.
Everybody wants that deal, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
And move to Montclair , new Jersey, and I'm like, oh
my God, I'm going to have myJersey boy going back to Jersey
and I'm so happy I did.
I love living in the GardenState.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That's great.
So I mean, it's full circle.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
So, and now you've been here.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
How long have you been?
Speaker 4 (03:02):
back For almost 18 years now.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
The longest place I've ever lived now Montclair
and we had no idea how manyamazing artists of all kinds,
particularly writers, editorsyou shake a tree and an editor
and an artist and a musicianfalls out of it in Montclair.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's true.
And then a new one is bornevery second.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I am from the city and I'm going to admit that I
had Jersey bias, that's thestain that all New Yorkers have.
And part of the reason for thatis I grew up on the way upper
west side, at 119th Street.
It was such a wonderfulneighborhood to grow up in and
(03:45):
when we came, when we decided tomove back east, we did look in
the city, but first of all wecouldn't afford anything.
When we came and looked atMontclair, I felt like it was so
reminiscent of growing up onthe Upper West Side in the 70s
and 80s, when I grew up, and theartists, the musicians, those
small shops, all that kind ofcommunity.
(04:06):
So, yeah, I now have no desireto move back to the city.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
The reason that you came on my radar is that we live
in the same town and I saw thatyou did.
Is it a pitch palooza at thelibrary recently?
And tell us a little bit abouthow you got into it and, you
know, maybe give us some tips.
Give authors or people tips inthis industry.
But first tell us how you gotinto becoming the book.
(04:35):
Doctors is what I've seen.
Whose idea was it and how didit come about?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So originally I was the writer, she was my agent,
and then we got married and shefired me as a client.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Probably a good idea.
Were you an unruly client, orit's just like maybe it
shouldn't be Terrible.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Terrible client.
I was so bad.
Hopefully I'm a better husband.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Actually he was an amazing client before he became
my husband.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yes, that makes sense .
I had a book called theEssential Guide to Getting your
Book Published.
We had to figure out a way ofpromoting the book.
It's nonfiction.
Our publisher at that time,workman the greatest publisher
sent us out a 25-city tour.
So what are we going to do?
(05:22):
Came up with an idea that camefrom a party where there was a
bunch of drunken writerspitching her books because they
found out she was an agent.
I'm like, ooh, we should do anevent where writers get a minute
to pitch us their books.
We, the experts, would critiquetheir pitch in a kind and
gentle way to let them know howto make it better.
We'd have a winner at the endand we would turn that winner
onto an agent or a publisher whowas right for their work.
(05:43):
And the first one we ever didwas at the Strand Bookstore 18
miles of books and there was aline outside.
We were very nervous, like, isthis going to put out petty
fours and everything?
And he was all nervous, peterWorkman.
There was a line outside andI'm like, oh, that's probably
for they're doing a grumpy catevent or something Like what are
you guys waiting for?
(06:03):
We're here to pitch our book,man.
I'm like what it was packed.
It was so fun and so amazingand we heard incredible pitches
from all kinds of people and atthat moment I thought, oh, this
should be a TV show.
And as soon as I came off thestage, someone said dude, you
should make a TV show out ofthis.
So we did then.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Wait, make a TV show out of this.
So we did then Wait, I'm goingto stop you because you're going
too far in advance?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
No, because they asked about that.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
So that was in about 2005.
The meantime I'd actually leftpublishing and I started a
company called Little Mismatchedthat sold socks that don't
match.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I saw that and it's so awesome because my daughters
always loved wearing mixed matchsocks.
They don't ever wear them as apair.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah.
So I had this company and wehad a lot of success and we sold
the company to a large privateequity company, which then fired
me.
So we had a one-year-olddaughter at that point.
So it was kind of a blessing indisguise because I had to be
(07:12):
home and we got to be hometogether, because David was
working from home at that pointand we had this event that we
were doing all around thecountry Chipaloozas and so we
said you know what?
We're just going to start abusiness because so many people
need help getting their bookspublished.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
We discovered there was an enormous, huge swath of
the population that wanted towrite books, from 12-year-old
kids to 94-year-old Navyveterans and everything in
between.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
All different types of people.
So we set up a consultingbusiness that helped people from
idea through and pastpublication of how to get
successfully published, and wehad this book, as David
mentioned as well.
So that was like our callingcard was.
We had this doorstopper of abook with all this information
(08:02):
and the Pitchapaloozas becamethis incredible event that we
did everywhere, from ruralAlaska, where we got a grant to
go to tiny libraries, some ofthem in towns as small as 40
people, to major cities, toevery place in between major
(08:27):
cities to every place in between, and what we found was is that
book publishing basicallypublishes people who have
connections to book publishing.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
You got to get somebody to get in the door.
The gatekeepers don't wantpeople that didn't go to, that
aren't their uncle or theircousin or went to an MFA program
or Harvard.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Right right, we were discovering the most incredible
talent.
Amazing, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
South Dakota, wichita , kansas, you name it the border
of Mexico and America in theSouthwest.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, and because these people were so talented,
we were helping them to getsuccessfully published.
Some of those people have nowgone on to be some of the most
award-winning best-sellingauthors today.
Incredible.
That must feel so good.
It's the best feeling.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
It is the best feeling.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
And so now, to tie it back to what David was saying
about people saying oh, you gotto make a television show out of
this.
And so people then were like we, you got to make a television
show out of this.
And so people then were like wedon't want to watch people
writing, and we were like wedon't want to watch people
writing.
And we are not teaching peoplethe craft of writing.
What we do as book doctors iswe are teaching people how to go
(09:39):
from talented amateurs tosuccessful professional authors.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
And these principles apply to any business you want
to start.
Anything you do, whether it'sbeing a plumber or being a
writer or being a lawyer, you'vegot to figure out how do I take
my skills and find an audiencefor what my business is, explain
who I am and what I dosuccessfully.
How do I get clients?
How do I get clients?
How do I keep clients?
How do I grow a business?
These principles apply to somany different fields.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Question on that, just the audience, because I
took a writing workshop when Ilived abroad for two years, in
Amsterdam, and it was the firsttime I'd ever taken any sort of
writing class and I loved it.
But I remember there was thisconversation back and forth
about do you write with anaudience in mind?
And then a lot of people arelike no, never do that, Never
(10:32):
try to tailor your stuff to anaudience, and then people who
would not tailor anything toanybody else being frustrated
that they could never getpublished.
What is that rule for audience?
Speaker 4 (10:44):
awareness.
It's a balance that has to bestruck.
The thing is is that we live ina different reality than we've
ever lived in before when itcomes to artistic creation and
in publishing right now, if youwanted to get published by a
publisher that you know the nameof Penguin, random House, simon
Schuster, etc.
(11:05):
Having a great book is a verysmall piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
My terrible joke about that is the best way to
get published by Mr Harper andMr Collins are to walk in the
room with one of the Kardashiansand someone from the Lego
Corporation.
That's how you get a book deal.
It's so sad to say that, butthose giant publishers are
looking for it because they'reall owned now by corporations.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
So we would love to say never think about your
audience, Just write whateveryou want to write.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And you can do that.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
If you don't care about getting published or
publish yourself, yeah, and youdon't-.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Because that's a-.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Right, you could self-publish, right?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yes, and used to be.
Self-publishing was theredheaded stepchild of the
publishing business.
Not anymore.
Every publisher has somebody intheir organization who scours
self-published authors who'vebecome wildly successful.
That's another way to get agood deal no-transcript.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
The vast majority of people not just who self-publish
, who get published are notwildly successful.
What we teach in workshops, thepoint of the Pitchapalooza, is
really to help people understandthe business side of this,
because we want their art tothrive, they have to understand
(12:22):
and, to your point of this class, if you don't know who your
audience is, where they are,there's just so many barriers.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And we also define success Right, whatever it means
to you.
You might just want to have abook for your grandchildren
that's on.
That's a success for you.
You don't need Mr Harper and MrCollins to do that.
We can do that.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Right, I feel like a lot of or not needed to make
your living, because they willsay I guess Liz Gilbert always
says don't depend on your artfor income.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Right, I mean some people.
We get emails that say, oh,I've just taken a second
mortgage on my house and when mybook comes out I'll be able to
buy an island.
We're like, no, don't do that.
No, there's so many people whowant to make a living as a
writer and we always say, like Ihave a list of different ideas
(13:19):
that I want to make into booksand I analyze, like some books I
say are love books.
I just do them because I loveto do it and I don't care if I
sell a copy.
Books are books that I reallythink have a chance at breaking
out.
And, weirdly, the books thatare my love books are the ones
that have blown up.
The biggest attention I got fora book was one that was so
(13:42):
outside of the mainstream ofpublishing.
There was no chance that thiswas going to blow up and yet it
ended up on the front cover ofthe Sunday New York Times book
review.
So you don't know, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Well, to that point you have to let it out into the
world and see, you never know.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
So I think that, yes, I agree that I think many
people have different reasonswhy they want what they want to
get from their book publishing,but I do think most everybody
wants it to be read and it to beseen and for people to take
notice in some way.
And, of course, new York Timesbestseller is always the, you
know, the cherry on top right.
Everybody wants that.
But let's just say you'vewritten a book and you're ready
(14:21):
to start putting it out there.
What are the first things thatyou would tell someone that they
need to?
I mean, there's the title,there's the pitch, what's the
basics?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So what's interesting is I would start way before the
person has written.
When considering your idea fora book and this is again, not if
you're just like.
You have something in you, youhave to get it out, doesn't
matter, but you want to try andsell a book.
That the first question.
We on your years in thehealthcare industry and you have
(15:08):
something to say based on yourexpertise.
Okay, that's great, that makessense.
Let's say you're a nurse andyou're writing a thriller and
the main character is a nurse.
Because you're a nurse, youknow things about the nursing
industry that could make a greatplot, right, yeah, that all
(15:30):
makes sense.
You're the person to write thatbook.
But let's say you're writing ahealth book but you have no
expertise in health whatsoever,or I'll say we get this, which I
think happens nowadays.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
There's so many people who want to write kids'
books and they think that theirauthority is.
I'm a parent and I told a storyto my child that they love.
That doesn't make you an adultperson to write a kids' book,
and yet it seems like we get anemail with people saying that.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Second question is who is your audience?
All the time we hear queries orpitches where people say this
is like no book ever written.
This is a book for everyone.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
That's the kiss of death it is don't say that, say
that this is unique, or what ifyou're saying it's unique.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
You could be like.
You know, my audience is thelove steampunk romance, which is
a very like specific thing,that where there's a very clear
audience and it's easy to reachthem because they they listen to
the same channel social media,all that kind of stuff.
But you could say mine isunique because it, you know, it
(16:43):
takes on the plot of a GeorgeEliot novel or something like
you know.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So what we always say to people is we want something
that's unique and yet familiar.
Okay, if it's too unique,you're like what is this?
I've never seen anything likethis.
I don't even know what this is,and people are going to
distance themselves from that.
If it's too familiar, it's acliche.
It's something that is, and theway you explain this to people
(17:09):
it's like this, but it'sdifferent, like that, and we
call those using comp titlescomparative titles.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I was going to ask about that because I know that
in film and TV that's a lot oftimes what the pitches are.
It's like Legally Blonde meets-.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
One of the greatest ones in movies is.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Jaws in Outer Space.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
It's the greatest pitch.
That's the movie Alien.
Yeah, Right now I'm reading abook and I'm saying it's like
Catcher in the Rye if StephenKing told it.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Like Catcher in the Rye if Stephen.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
King told it, two things represent Catcher in the
Rye, alienated, sarcasticteenager at a boarding school.
Stephen King, supernatural,crazy things are going to happen
.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah, and titles signal where a book is going to
end up in the bookstore and theyalso show your depth of
knowledge of your category ofbook.
So people say this is HarryPotter meets the Bible, then
you're like you don't knowanything about your category of
book.
So people say this is HarryPotter meets the Bible, then
you're like you don't knowanything about your category.
But if they dial down tosomething very specific in the
middle grade area or whatever,then we can see okay, you read
(18:16):
in this area, you know who youraudience is, you know what the
competition is for your book.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Right, it's a shorthand of letting you know if
you want an agent, if you wanta publisher, they're overworked.
They need a way to explain itto other people.
Then, if those two thingsresonate, then they unpack it
and go into the details of it.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
So you have to package the pitch and package
your idea in a way that it makesit really simple for the
publisher to understand what todo with you and what to do with
it.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
And when you say what to do with you, you have to
understand what to do with you.
Yes, you do Because thepublisher, even the biggest
publishers, they're more like aprinting and distribution
service and, except for thebiggest authors, you are not
going to get a marketing andpublicity plan.
It's really on the author'sshoulders.
(19:10):
And all of these things thatwe've talked about the bio, the
competition, the comps, theaudience that turn into your
publicity and marketing plan allof those tools funnel into that
.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And a lot of amateur writers plan All of those tools
funnel into that and a lot ofamateur writers, talented
amateurs, have this still, thisidea, like we get saying all the
time once my book is out, I'dbe more than willing to go on.
Good Morning America, I'mavailable at any moment.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, that's great, because I was worried that you
might have a conflict, but Ithink it's also because we've
grown up with or at least for meI grown up with envisioning the
publishing industry a certainway, due to film and television
and reading the New Yorker orwhatever, and then I would
assume that sort of fantasticalvision of, oh okay, well, once I
(19:59):
land this, then I'll get that,and then it's just you have to
follow these steps.
It's good that you're breakingit down and saying, actually no,
I'll get that, and then it'sjust you have to follow these
steps.
It's good that you're breakingit down and saying, actually no,
that's not.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
We should talk about blurbs.
You know the little jacketthat's somebody else saying
you're awesome, which, as we allknow, is better than you saying
you're awesome, because itleaves you the greatest blurb
you can have is when someonesays oh, this is a great book.
It's like this meets that it'son the book now and somebody
else said it and we say get ablurb before you even go to an
(20:29):
agent.
So that's the first thing theyread at the top of the email.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
A bookseller?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
it doesn't even matter who adopter, whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Actually the Stephen King came from an author friend
that David asked to blurb hisbook.
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
So you go into the agent's office with somebody
else already saying how awesomeyou are.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
That is really good advice.
So you have to then ship yourbook out to some people to give
you a blurb before you evenstart the pursuit of a publisher
.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, let's talk about building what we call a
dream team.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Writing's a solitary affair most times, but we tell
people join a writer's groupFirst thing I do when I go to a
new city.
I went to San Francisco.
We moved there.
I got into a writer's group andamong the people there was this
guy who was ridiculouslyhandsome, so talented, so nice,
so kind.
They're like there was this guywho was ridiculously handsome,
so talented, so nice, so kind,like if this guy gets a break,
(21:28):
he's going to be huge.
Well, his name is KhaledHosseini and he was the kite
runner.
Now I'm friends with the guyand and if you look on the
essential guide to getting yourbook published, there's a blurb
from Khaled Hosseini now I nowit's good to know how that
happened joining a writer'sgroup also.
Like it was every Tuesday, I wasin this writer's group by about
(21:48):
Sunday.
I'm like, oh God, I have got tohave something good to come in
with.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
That does keep you accountable.
And to that point, Khaled, whenDavid met him, was emergency
room doctor with two youngchildren.
Doctor with two young childrenand he would get up at four
o'clock or 4.30 every morning towrite for an hour before he had
to get the kids ready, all thatkind of stuff, and then go do
surgery for 10 hours and that'show he was able to produce in
(22:17):
order to have his wonderfulbooks.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
So, on your dream team, go join a writer's group.
Have somebody who's acheerleader, who helps what you
do and knows how to articulatehow awesome you are.
Have a Debbie Downer who canarticulate why you suck in a
really concise and educated way.
Have somebody who is good withgraphic design so you can send
(22:44):
stuff out that looks really cool.
And I have about 10 writersthat I send them my stuff and
they critique it for me and Iread their stuff and critique it
for them.
It's super important to have alot of different people read
your work before you send it outand a lot of people think, oh,
someone's going to steal my work.
No, no one's going to.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
That's one of the biggest things that we hear is
oh, I'm not going to share mywork with anyone because we're
afraid of the idea of beingtaken.
That, to me, is the single bestway to never get published.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Well, I also know a little bit.
I think that there's also aprotection, self-protection
going on, that they don't wantcriticism, they don't want
someone to change what theirvision is, and it's just a
protectionary thing too, and Ithink that you're saying that
that's probably a bad thing.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Yeah, so let's speak to that for one second, because
rejection and perseverance aretwo sides of the same coin.
One way to go from rejection toperseverance is to learn how to
become resilient from rejection, and the only way to do that is
to keep being rejected.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
This book that I had.
That blew up.
It was rejected by 113.
I was already a bestsellingauthor from the top of the food
chain, to like Bob's publishingcompany.
Bob lives in his mom's basement.
This guy wouldn't publish mybook, but every time I got
rejected I said to people whatcan I do to make it better?
Oh, you need a better.
I made a better title.
(24:17):
Oh, you need some stars fromthis little world you're talking
about.
So I got a couple of stars bythe 114th time I sent it out to
the right person.
Finally, this thing was sotight because every time I got
rejected I learned a littlesomething about my book.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Well, I have a question about that really
quickly before.
So you said you sent it out to113.
I think you're exaggerating.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
No, I can show you the list.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Okay, by the time you have crafted your revisions and
made it all this tight, haven'tyou run out of publishers?
Do you go back and startsending them again to the same
people and say I've made somechanges.
Can you take a look again?
You actually can do that.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
You can, but that's highly unlikely.
That's not how I did it.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I told you so what did you?
How did you?
Is there 114,?
Like that 114th clearly wasn'tthe one you wanted, right?
Oh, it's true.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
So that was.
That's part of the interestingpart of the story, and this goes
back to all the other thingsthat we're talking about about
audience and you know, findingthe right match for your books.
So the best publisher for youis the publisher who specializes
in your kind of book and knowswhere your audience is.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Also continuously.
Whenever I would meet somebodyor see an old friend, they'd go
what are you doing?
Well, I'm writing a book andhere's what it's about.
I tell everybody this isn't apiece of advice I give to any
writer.
When someone asks you what areyou up to, your answer is I'm
writing a book.
And if they ask you and only ifthey ask you what is the book
about?
(25:54):
You got one minute to tell themwhat your book is about,
because you never know, youmight be talking to somebody
whose cousin works for HarperCollins.
This happened to me on anairplane.
You don't want to be the personwho goes.
What my book is about?
Oh, it's about a dog and a guy,and this really cool stuff
(26:17):
happens and 10 minutes lateryou're like and the dog does
this to the guy.
I finally, at a midnight moviein New York, I ran to an old
friend.
I said, oh.
She said, what are you doing?
I thought, oh, I'm doing thisbook and here's what it is.
She said, oh, I've got theperfect person for you and I'm
like awesome, and I sent it tothe perfect person.
Within a week I had a book deal.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
My goodness, yeah.
So it's good that they can cometo you and your book and figure
out actual steps to take inorder to get there, because it
will not come naturally.
It doesn't come naturally to meand again, this is across the
board.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
You have a product you want to launch.
You have a restaurant you wantto open Any of these things.
Most people don't go out andget the necessary advice or
training or what have you, andthen their restaurant is closed
in three months.
There's no secret sauce.
I really do have to say and wetalk about this all the time 90%
(27:35):
of it is perseverance aboveeverything else.
And we say there are two kindsof perseverance there's smart
perseverance and stupidperseverance.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
That's really hard to know which one.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well, we'll give you an example of stupid
perseverance.
We'll say I've sent out theexact same pitch to 100 people
and no one has responded.
Same pitch to 100 people and noone has responded.
Well, I guess I'll send it outto 100 more.
No, no, no, no.
You got to evolve it and learnhow to make it better.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Okay, so you're called the book doctors.
People can come to you, canhire you.
Is it the both of you that theyhire?
Do they come in?
Is it like therapy that you sitdown and you say where are you
at?
I'm going to do 10 sessions toget myself from this funk of not
being able to publish.
How does it work so?
Speaker 4 (28:26):
we, it's both of us and then we also have a small
team of other people and we allhave specialties that we do so
depending on the type of bookthat it is.
So David is far morefiction-based than me.
I'm far more nonfiction-based,but, for example, the two of us
(28:48):
and our colleague Laura Chenoneall do memoir.
So there are certain things,but depending on what the memoir
is about, we would choose whois the best person.
And then we also have a coupleyounger people on staff who do
what we call beta reads, whichare just like a quick read with
a short letter to tell you areyou on the right track?
(29:11):
Are there certain?
And it's much less expensive.
And then we also have someoneon staff who helps people find
the right publisher for them andthe right agent for them,
because that kind of researchcan be really, really difficult.
So, depending on what you'vecut like, david and I both work
with people on pitches acrossthe board pitches slash query
(29:31):
letters.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Some clients we have once a week we meet Right and
for these writers they know theyhave to have something prepared
and I give them some.
People need deadlines.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
How often do people come in where they have their
idea and then you actually helpthem shift that idea to
something else?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Master of that.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
That's my like doing that and setting up the
structure for a book.
I'm the daughter of anarchitect.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
She's a literary architect.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
I'm a literary architect, it's like my favorite
thing to do, and sometimespeople come with books that are
all over the place.
A skill that I have is to beable to see thematically how all
the stories fit together andhow they build, climax, finish,
all that kind of stuff.
So David has such a gift forlanguage and the musicality of
(30:29):
some prose and for stakes.
How do you build the stakes upso that you Raise her stakes?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah Well, when I first came to Ariel as a writer
didn't know her at all.
I had written what really wasan experimental novel and I
didn't even know it because Ididn't know how to write a book.
It took me nine months to gether as my agent that's another
story for another day.
When we had our lunch writeragent lunch and she eventually
(31:01):
said to me what is this?
Usually, first, novels areabout someone's life.
Did you really murder four ofyour stepfathers?
I'm like, no, I didn't at all.
No, it's fiction she said well,what is your story?
And I told her my real book.
I wanted to write that.
I was too scared to write abouthorrible things that happened
(31:22):
to me when I was 17 years old,like unspeakable terrible things
.
And she's like, oh, david,that's the book you have to
write.
And so I abandoned that otherbook and went about writing this
memoir.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
And then this memoir became a national bestseller.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
And your whole life kind of it also helped heal me
from these horrible, traumaticthings that happened to me.
It was essential in myredemption the love of a good
woman and a good agent.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Amen, and they're the same person.
I mean, how lucky is that?
That's the shocking thing.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
That's pretty great.
I mean, how lucky is that.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
That's the shocking thing.
That's pretty great.
Well, this has been so helpful.
I mean, I think I cancompletely see why there was a
line wrapped around the buildingand why it's been so successful
.
You guys give such great tipsand such, I mean, and also it's
coming from you know people who,like you said, you know you are
the expert in this, so I cansee why it's working, and so you
(32:19):
do know your audience.
That one would say, as you saidyou should.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
I want to say one more thing before we sign off.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
We are 15 years.
I pitched this television show15 years.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, is this the America's Next Great Author?
Yeah, I wanted to ask you aboutthis.
I'm glad you brought it up andfinally, I got Ariel on board.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
We got one of her partners, kwame Alexander, who's
an amazing force of nature,then she got on board and then,
once we had that team, then webuilt this whole giant team of
amazing people and we pitched itto so many places I can't even
tell you.
And we finally found a streamercalled Canopy with a K, and
(33:03):
they have a gigantic catalog ofTV and movies.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
They are the worldwide partner to libraries
for streaming television andmovies, so it was a perfect fit.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
We're doing a story, a show about books and they're
with libraries.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
It's a perfect fit and we signed the deal.
We're in a story, a show aboutbooks and they're with libraries
.
It's a perfect fit.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
And we signed the deal.
We're in pre-production.
We're having meetings every day.
It's so exciting.
Now the show is evolving intosomething else.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
And it's a very similar thing.
We thought we wanted Hulu orNetflix or whatever, but
actually this is the streamer.
That's our core audience.
It is yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Is it going to be like American Idol for books or
something like that?
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Here's our elevator pitch.
It's Top Chef meets Queer Eye,and the reason for that is that
it follows a similar format toTop Chef, but there are no
eliminations, because we aretrying to build community and
help people grow, not to tellthem to go home.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yeah, don't take your knives and leave.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
So the whole point is for the group of people who end
up in the house to support eachother, to get to a place where
they can all help each other.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
And then in the end we will have a winner.
We will get a cash prize and apublishing contract.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
So sign up for America's.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Next, great Author, you can go to our website Okay.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
For casting calls and all of that
americasnextgreathorcom.
We've got a newsletter, allthat kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
That's the ultimate book, club or group power group
to get involved in there.
You have that kind of supportto get your book done.
That's amazing.
Well, that's exciting socongratulations on that.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
That's huge Thank you .
Speaker 4 (34:55):
This was so fun, by the way, you guys are really fun
, thank you, Thank you, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
This was so fun.
By the way, you guys are reallyfun.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
This was such a greatconversation, but we do have one
last question.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, yeah, our last question is please tell us
something that you love aboutNew Jersey.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Okay, so I have an answer for this and then a
little plug at the end.
Okay, sure, I grew up in NewYork City.
Then we moved to the Bay Areafor seven years and we lived on
a block similar to the block welive on in Montclair and we did
not know any of our neighbors.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Not one single person in California.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
People so radically unfriendly and unneighborly and
we moved to Montclair and withinthe first week we had cookies,
invites, I'm like Ariel, why arethese people bringing me
potlucks?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Why are they?
What do they want from me?
And she's like no, they'rebeing friendly, they're being
neighborly.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I'm like oh my God.
And I just find sometimes youknow New Jersey, new Yorkers,
can be a little rough orwhatever, but the warm heart is
there in a way.
That is so, david.
I love the Bay Area for manythings, but I would never want
(36:09):
to live there again for thatreason.
So I think it's super specialand my plug maybe our plug is
very obvious for us which isWachung Bookstore.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I was going say that's my place.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
You took my line.
So the first people that wewent and introduced ourselves to
when we got here it's the mostspecial community hub.
We need it in the face of theAmazons of the world.
Please don't buy your books onAmazon and go to Watchung
Booksellers.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
You know she stole my entire speech that I was going
to give at the end about Watchon Booksellers.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Well, you will be very glad to know that whenever
we have an author on our link onour website always links to
Watch on Booksellers.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
I have to make one more plug.
The winner from Montclair fromtwo years ago is Mr Gill Dan
Gill Yay, I know From Glenfield,who taught at Glenfield for 53
years.
His book is coming out.
The one that he pitched at thePitchapalooza, the first week in
(37:12):
July from Little Brown forYoung Readers.
It's called no More Chairs.
It's so beautiful, so exciting.
I was so excited about that,yeah.
So I hope everybody will go andpre-order the book and help Dan
create a bestseller out of thissuper important story.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
During this time where the world is filled with
you, we should have him on, askhim to come on the podcast you
guys are awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Thank you so much for coming on.
This was such a greatconversation.
We appreciate it, Thank you.
This podcast was produced byRachel Martens and Jeanette
Afsharian.
You can find us on Spotify,iTunes and Buzzsprout.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
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