July 8, 2025 • 54 mins
Tune in to our talk with acclaimed author Warren Zanes about his road to writing music biographies, including his outstanding book, "Deliver Me from Nowhere: The Making of Bruce Springsteen’s Nebraska.” Film adaptation will be released in October 2025 with a roster of superstars including Jeremy Allen White, Jeremy Strong, and Stephen Gram.
The album "Nebraska" was recorded by Springsteen on a simple cassette recorder, with just his guitar and harmonica, in Colts Neck, NJ. It was an industry-shocking release after his four massive studio album successes.
In this conversation, why led Warren to write this book. And explore Warren’s experiences as a young rock musician in the band The Del Fuegos, his time at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and his transition into an acclaimed author.
His fascinating journey sheds light on his writing approach and storytelling abilities, as well as the profound impact that the album had on Warren and on The Boss himself.
Episode Topics:
🎸 Warren Zanes
🎸Bruce Springsteen
🎸 Nebraska Album
🎸 The Del Fuegos
🎸 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
🎸 The Band Experience
📚 School, Bikes, and Muppets
Links
Amazon
Deliver Me from Nowhere: The Making of Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska
Watchung Book Sellers
https://www.watchungbooksellers.com/item/DayRjyMnwHknVSlRk5DuKQ
CBS Morning News: See the room where Nebraska was recorded.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bruce-springsteen-on-nebraska-and-the-emergence-of-springsteen-the-poet/
Keywords: Bruce Springsteen, Nebraska, Music Legends, Warren Zanes, Authors, New Books, Rock, Biographies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Get Lost in Jersey with Rachel and Jeanette talking about life
just outside New York City.
Before we begin our episodetoday, I just wanted to remind
everybody to hit subscribewherever you're listening to
your podcast, so that way younever miss an episode.
Thanks a lot and I hope youenjoyed today's conversation.
Hi Rachel, hey Jeanette.
(00:23):
So we just finished ourinterview with Warren Zanes.
Yes, it was an incrediblejourney conversation of where he
came from and all the way tothe Bruce Springsteen book
Nebraska that he has out.
That's a blockbuster it is.
It was such a wonderfulinterview.
Give a little bit of a backstoryabout Warren, because there's a
(00:44):
big.
He's got a long list of things,of accomplishments.
So Warren Zanes is a musician, awriter, also a professor.
His new book, which we'retalking about, is called Deliver
Me from Nowhere the Making ofBruce Springsteen's Nebraska,
and he's talking about theNebraska album which a lot of
fans don't really evennecessarily know about.
(01:07):
As he says in the interview, itwas a left turn from an artist.
It's really in a lot of waysrepresentative of maybe Bruce
Springsteen's inner soul and atime in his life and what he was
going through.
So Warren's book takes usthrough that personal, very
personal journey for BruceSpringsteen and what he went
(01:28):
through and what's going throughand how he came about writing
that album.
Yeah, we talk a little bit aboutthis, about Jim Axelrod's
interview with them and that isthe very Sunday morning.
Yeah, At the very end of thatinterview, Jim Axelrod says if
you want to enjoy BruceSpringsteen, listen to anything.
If you want to know BruceSpringsteen, listen to Nebraska.
(01:50):
And Bruce Springsteen agreed.
Yes, I think so.
So I think this book that Warrenhas written about Bruce
Springsteen's album Nebraska isso good.
But what's also so interestingis understanding the author,
warren Zanes, and the journey ofhim being a teen musician a
(02:11):
very, very successful teenagermusician and the journey that he
went on after that a big partof the rock and roll hall of
fame he got a job there and theconnections that he made there
and growing up and also he wroteabout Tom Petty in a very
successful book as well, andjust who Warren is and Warren's
journey and how that relatesinto how he wrote about Bruce
(02:35):
Springsteen.
Yeah, we can't cover everythingthat Warren's done, but we cover
some of what Warren has doneand it's a great interview and I
hope everybody enjoys it.
Hello Warren.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Thank you for coming on.
Lost in Jersey.
We want to know first of all, alittle bit about your journey
to here, like how you got here,and also to talk about the book.
(02:59):
Now we want to talk a lot aboutyou as well, in addition to the
Bruce Springsteen book thatyou're doing a lot of press for
right now, and Rachel and I werekind of joking around earlier
that when we were researchingyou and then having you come on,
we almost felt like we werestudying for an exam.
We were like oh my God.
I'm cranting.
There's so much to cover.
(03:21):
Holy crap.
There's just so many otherthings I also wanted to talk to
you about besides the book, so Iwanted to also be able to get
that in this interview.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'll go with your firstpart.
How did I get here?
Because, if you could go back,my son's, lucian, he's 20 now
(03:44):
Piero is 18.
He came when Piero was one andI feel like a lot of families
not to overgeneralize, but thereare a lot of families coming
from Park Slope in Brooklyn.
Yes.
They come to either Maplewood orMontclair.
That's right.
Because there's enough of whathappens in Brooklyn or Manhattan
(04:08):
out here that people don't feellike they're going to die, but
their kids can also go out inthe yard.
Yeah.
And they can walk to school andit doesn't seem formidable and
no subways are involved.
But that wasn't our story,because between Park Slope and
(04:30):
Montclair there was Cleveland,ohio.
We were in Park Slope and thenI got offered a job at the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame as theirVP of education and programs.
This for me was like going fromthe mailroom to the executive
office, right.
(04:51):
Yeah.
But I had never made money, I'dnever had salary.
No one in my family had jobs.
So that was the first real job,yeah.
It wasn't teaching, wasn'tplaying in a band, it wasn't
working on a book that you'd getvery little money for, if any.
(05:11):
It was a real job and theyexpected me to show up in the
morning and leave at the end ofthe day Was that frightening,
was it like a little?
Nerve-racking Of course.
I felt like I was involved indeep theater.
(05:32):
Yeah.
I have to figure out how toconvince them that I know what
I'm doing.
Yeah, but my first executivemeeting.
It was all just the VPs and theCEO and I could see I was the
youngest guy there by I don'tknow 10 years, at least maybe a
bit more.
I could see one of the otherVPs looking at horror and horror
(05:55):
at my hand and I'm like why isthat dude looking at my hand?
And I had everything I neededto do written on my hand.
Oh my God, I love it, that is soperfect and I've been doing
this for years and it was amoment of like.
Okay, I got to change some ofmy practices.
I guess I need a notepad.
(06:16):
A notepad, yeah.
Yeah, just like, fit the norms.
Yeah, fit the cultural norms.
I will say that my anxietyabout that subsided really
quickly.
I saw some benefits of beingnot to overdo this chapter, but
it was really important for mebecause I was ashamed of taking
(06:40):
this job.
I thought I was gonna losecredibility as a musician like
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Well,what's the man if the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame isn't the man?
I was like well, I'm gonna loseall credibility as an artist.
I might not see my kids as muchas I want to.
(07:00):
There was only one at the time.
It was so radical as a changeand I was wrong about so much my
life today, what I get to do,which I still.
I say this with a real measureof authenticity.
I'm still surprised at what Iget to do.
(07:21):
But had I not walked throughthe door of that job where they
expected me to show up in themorning and leave at the end of
the day?
What I got to do there?
It expanded my possibilities insuch a dramatic way and I
didn't lose my credibility assomebody who could pick up a
guitar and write a song.
What happened was my optionswere expanded radically and it
(07:45):
taught me how narrow my view isof the world, like I get shit
wrong all over the place.
Yeah, it's such a good lesson.
That is such a good lesson,warren, especially for that
artist mentality, because I'vehad it before, too, where I've
thought I have to be a waitressin order to be an actor.
(08:09):
I can't do X, y and Z, no,because this is the trope and I
need to follow it, and it'spretty wrong.
Well, it's almost like when youare a waitress you are an actor
Like.
I needed to see.
I needed to have some sensethat like it's not about I use
(08:32):
my creativity here and I don'tuse it there.
It's like if I choose to be acreative person, I use it
everywhere.
You use it everywhere, yes yes,I needed to be taught that that
job taught me.
But then, on the family side,it was the beginning of the end
of marriage number one out there.
It was real sacrifice to go toCleveland.
(08:54):
You think going from Brooklynto Montclair is hard?
Yeah, so here's what happened.
And this is back to my originalpoint.
It was different for us.
When we came to Montclair itwas after two and a half years
in Cleveland, so Montclair feltlike Paris.
(09:15):
Yeah, I'm sure it did.
We knew how to use the suburbs.
We knew what a lawn was for.
We knew how to drive to thegrocery store.
Mm-hmm.
And yet we could get on a trainand go to MoMA.
The best of both worlds there.
Yeah, well, I'll tell you.
So today is Friday.
(09:36):
I sent one, took one kid out toPortland Oregon for college,
and then the second one leftWednesday.
So I'm in day two of my firstempty nest experience.
So when that?
comes it's.
You know, I'm a single guy.
(09:57):
I could sell this house and gointo the city and I wish I could
get back the hours I've spenton real estate sites.
That's another issue entirely,but you know, it's like oh wow,
I'm hesitating Like I didn't, itturns out.
I didn't come here just forthem.
(10:17):
Some part of me is beingwell-served by this, and I'm
looking out at this magnoliatree that I'm truly like, in
love with.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwho you were before the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame.
You know you were a rock staras a teenager.
(10:38):
I've never thought of myself asa rock star, but I got to
inhabit that space, the world,to a degree.
Mm-hmm yeah.
The real rock stars can bemeasured in real estate.
I couldn't be so not to make itmaterial but, yes, I got to
(10:59):
have an experience.
That was the kind of thing, thesubstance of dreams.
Yeah, how old were you when itall started to take off with the
Delft Legos?
I was in my last year ofboarding school when my brother
called me on the dorm pay phoneand said I thought he was just
(11:20):
calling to say hello.
And you know, this is back inthe great age of pay phones.
Yeah, I know, I love it we allare the same, we're familiar.
We're with you, yeah.
We're gonna be called.
There's a phone call for each ofyour brother.
So I was like, hey, let's go.
And he's like, oh yeah, I wentto see the Blasters last night.
Blasters were banned on SlashRecords and I was like, oh cool.
(11:46):
So he's talking about this andit's like, yeah, it was really
good.
And then he starts talkingabout Phil and Danny of Alvin
it's a brother band and then hesays I think maybe we should try
that.
And it's like what Like, do youwant to join the Delphi?
It goes and I was like I reallydidn't see this coming.
(12:09):
Wait, did he already have theband going Like, or was it okay
so?
He had it going and he was likedo you want to come join us?
Yeah, look, they'd already putout a single.
They put out a single.
They printed 2000 copies ofthis single.
This single, like Robert Plantpicked up a copy of it and
(12:29):
talked about it in Rolling Stone.
Oh, my God.
Sam Phillips, who recorded ElvisPresley at Sun Records, who
recorded Howlin' Wolf.
He got a copy of it.
Like how did that happen?
I don't know.
Sam Phillips talked about it inRolling Stone.
They didn't need me.
My brother had an idea.
(12:50):
Yeah.
So I said yes so fast that ittook me a couple of minutes to
say wait, like what am I goingto do in the band?
Because you weren't a musicianat that point.
Well, I like I like I playeddrums to who records in our barn
, like I never been on stage.
(13:12):
I was a bicycle racer is what Iwas, you know?
Really serious about racingbicycles.
But I was hanging out more andmore with the band and so then I
was like, well, what am I goingto do?
He's like you're going to bethe second guitar player, like
you'll play lead guitar, and I'mlike, okay, How'd you played
guitar?
No like.
(13:33):
I had three months.
I had three months before myfirst gig to learn to play
guitar.
I went into Boston, we went toa store, we bought a Sears
Silver Tone amp.
Nice.
And bought a guild singlecutaway, like one that Keith
(13:53):
Richards played at a certainpoint.
And then we went and bought acopy of the Rolling Stones Now,
which is Ryan Jones era, and mybrother just said just go listen
to this.
And so I mean so, how about yourfirst gig?
I need to understand this yourfirst gig you get out there and
you're like I bet again, you'reterrified, you know, or were you
(14:15):
just like?
You know, I'm just whatever.
I mean, if we can use thelanguage of you know whatever
language you want.
Yeah, the language of recoverywas like I was already
disassociating all over theplace, Like yeah, A part of it
was like how drunk were you?
Yeah, if I had felt stage fright, that would have been an
advance, like you know.
(14:37):
So I was just up there, it washappening, I was doing it, I
didn't know who I was, I didn'tknow what was going on, I didn't
know, I didn't know how lonelyI was gonna feel.
Everybody else went off tocollege and I got an apartment
with the drummer Steve and mybrother Dan, and those guys
(14:59):
never stayed there.
They always stayed with theirgirlfriends.
And.
I remember I didn't have.
I didn't have a clock, and sothere's a period where I'm in
this band but I didn't have ajob.
I'm in this apartment by myself, I have no clock, and it was
like you know.
It's the kind of basement level, so your window is where your
head is, and I would get up andI would smoke pot, have a cup of
(15:25):
coffee, and then I'd go to thewindow and wait for somebody to
walk by and say, excuse me, doyou know what time it is?
No, I didn't even think thiswas strange.
That is so crazy Great.
It's so endearing.
I like I want to come back thereand be like it's okay, do you
(15:45):
need someplace to stay?
Oh, like, help, yeah, but youwouldn't have had intercourse
with me.
I mean, that's who I was, youknow.
You could tell my I'm alwaysthe caretaker, Totally totally.
Yeah it's like take me home.
I'm lonely.
(16:06):
Let's have sex and never seeeach other again.
Yeah, that was the life of theteen world then.
For sure, and that kind ofatmosphere that probably is very
accurate.
But I was also too.
I was so young, I was even, youknow, in relation to the Boston
music scene, I was a baby, youknow.
(16:26):
So there were a lot of.
When I first joined, a lot ofthe girls were like, you know,
we don't know whether we shouldbabysit them or nurse them,
Right.
Yeah, you're so young.
Right and so.
I had, I started going.
I wasn't into hardcore, but Istarted going to hardcore shows
because they were high schoolgirls.
Right.
Like you're trying to findsomeone your age, yeah, but it
(16:50):
was like weird.
They're like what's the guy fromthe Del Fuego's doing here,
like they're kind of happeningand like nobody, you know.
I didn't say to people well,I'm here.
Because I'm super lonely.
Yeah, I'm super lonely and Idon't know.
Do you want it to becomecorrect?
Intercourse with someonetonight.
Intercourse.
Especially if you said it likethat, if you said intercourse,
(17:12):
that was not going to work outfor you.
Well, ok, so let's say, let'stake you a little fast forward,
you a little bit.
So that band, how long were youin the Del Fuego's?
Because I know that it didbreak up and I think that it was
a little bit of a transitionperiod of your life.
I'm sure to once that.
(17:33):
And I'd be honest yesterday, itwas a transition period, I mean.
I won't Me too.
They just don't stop thismorning has been a transition.
Yeah, we're all, Jeanette and I.
Every day, we're in atransition, yeah.
We just get to share it witheach other.
Yeah, Like I think I mow my lawnand trim my hedges so that it
(17:55):
feels less like everything's atransition.
So something's consistent,something's like staying.
Yeah, I'm looking for thesebuoys, but yeah, so the band you
know, I left when I reallyrealized my brother wasn't going
to cut me in on the creativelife which is really the
songwriting.
Yeah.
(18:18):
And he had given me theimpression that he was going to
and then he didn't.
But it wasn't saying your songsaren't good enough, he was like
they're good enough.
He said you should go form yourown band and I felt deep, deep
betrayal.
And years later I said you know, you got to come into therapy
(18:39):
with me.
I got a serious wound aroundthat.
Yeah.
You know, I think the true woundwas, you know, our father
really abandoned us.
When I was two.
He left and looked back, and sowhen I've had moments of things
ending in that hard way, itjust triggers that stuff.
I didn't know that then.
(19:00):
I thought it was, I justthought my brother was an
asshole.
Yeah.
But it turns out it was a biggerpicture, but all the feeling it
was a very, very intense time.
You know, when you're in a bandit's so funny, like I finally,
with this latest book, the bookabout Springsteen's Nebraska
record and the acknowledgmentsfor the first time I was really
(19:22):
able to thank my that band.
It choked me up really becauseyou know what you go through in
a band at that age is deep, deepstuff and it was deep, deep
(19:43):
hurt when I left.
But the miraculous part of itis everything that happened in
those five years was so crucialto the things I would do later
that would matter deeply.
(20:05):
So when I've had theseopportunities that remain
surprising to me on some level Ifeel like I do them well and I
feel like I earned them.
But at the same time they seemmiraculous.
But like spending time with TomPetty, who's a childhood hero,
spending time with BruceSpringsteen.
(20:26):
What has made the fabric ofthose experiences durable is
that I was in a band.
When we're talking about beingin bands, when we're talking
about turning songs into records, like I've been there, and so
in these acknowledgments forthis book, I was able to thank
(20:48):
these guys who, at differenttimes, I've wanted to kill you
know, woken up at 3am resentingthe hell out of them.
It's not just age, it's age andexperience that got me to like
God.
Some of the most preciousthings in my life were possible
because they had that experience.
That it's not the BA, it's notthe two master's degrees, it's
(21:12):
not the PhD.
It's five years in a rock androll band that gave me the
education that mattered the most.
I needed those other things,but those experiences were the
ones that really determined thecharacter of what I was going to
do.
Right, it's the foundationalyears that does come through in
(21:34):
your book that I just finishedas well, and listened to the
acknowledgments.
I almost stopped and then Iwent forward with it, listening
to the very, very end, and it'sactually quite poignant how you
are thanking so many people andhow you give those
acknowledgments.
It's really beautiful and I dothink that there's a massive
(21:56):
heart at the end of that bookthat people should not miss out
on.
My favorite part of writing abook is the acknowledgments, and
I'm just telling you like I'velearned about myself, that I've
got a lot of feelings inside andI manage them in different ways
of my life, but I think I'mgetting closer, maybe 10% of the
(22:19):
way, really getting in touchwith my interior life.
When you write theseacknowledgments, you're really
taking a look around to go like,well, who do I have to thank?
This isn't like man.
I got an ass-kicking agent andmy editor is like cream of the
crop.
Both of those things are true,but it's a moment to go a little
(22:43):
bit deeper and see your mentorsand see the people who weren't
mentors but supporters, thepeople who believed in you
before you believed in yourself.
That's the moment I love themost, but it is so deep, it's
(23:03):
very revealing, especially theway that you write it, because I
think that there is someactually information in there
about how the book was made inthe acknowledgments that wasn't
actually in the book, aboutpeople that help.
Yeah, it's like, if you don'tread the acknowledgments, you
kind of miss a very importantpart of it.
(23:25):
It's almost like theacknowledgments should tell you
on some level how to read thebook.
Yeah, yeah, it was interesting.
It's a crazy idea.
I remember reading I followedthe pilgrimage route to Santiago
de Compostela when I was inundergrad.
I wrote by myself.
I wrote my bike from Paris toSantiago.
(23:47):
Your biking?
Has that continued on?
I mean, is that?
This was a different kind ofbike.
When I was a bicycle racer, Iwas like, well, it's a wild
chapter.
I was sponsored by Jim Henson.
Wait, when was it?
It was 14 to 17 in there.
I just want to get sponsored byJim Henson.
(24:11):
When I went to boarding school,Brian Henson was there.
Brian runs them up.
I'm a buyer now.
He knew what I came from andthat I was serious about bicycle
racing.
Oh boy, you guys are justtouching too many nerves today.
Well, it's interesting, it'sfascinating to hear these things
(24:35):
that I don't like to know.
We want to talk about Bruce, butthe thing is that's pretty
covered.
We want to know about theauthor too.
Yeah, brian went to his dad andhis dad sponsored a balloonist.
He knew that his father didsomething.
He was like I had no idea.
What happened was I got toboarding school because I was a
(25:03):
ski racer.
We didn't have the money forski racing.
I figured out how to buyequipment wholesale and use it
for a season and make money.
You just had money to buy aseason pass.
You could learn how to ski.
You were in New Hampshire.
No, I was so that I could race.
I raced.
Eastern, which is the pointsystem.
(25:24):
When you're in the point system,you're in with the national
team.
I was serious about it.
I went to Phillips and over andpart of it was I was going to
ski race.
My mother insisted I seebreaking away.
I said to my mother, no, I'mnot going.
(25:47):
She kept pushing.
I watched this movie.
I went and sold all my skiequipment and I bought a racing
bicycle.
I didn't see people race.
They didn't.
At that time it was a totallydifferent culture.
I started bicycle racing.
I show up to Andover andthey're like yeah, well, we want
you to meet the ski coach.
You guys are going to start inthe fall.
(26:09):
I was like I don't know any skiequipment.
I sold it.
What?
You're a scholarship student.
This is what you're here for.
You don't need equipment.
I'm like, what do you say atthat point?
That's how clueless I was.
Oh my gosh, they started abicycle racing team.
Okay, so that you could.
(26:30):
Okay, so they kept you anywaywith your scholarship, but you
didn't have to ski anymore.
You could do bicycle racing.
I was their number one racer forthree years.
It was like well, amazing,Amazing.
So this is starting to.
Actually this is making sense.
This is something that's in youfrom a very young age, as you
(26:53):
said, transitioning from onething to another, to another, to
another, and all of them donebig, as it seems to be yes, you
don't do things long.
It's not how it feels.
I feel there's a lot of goodfortune.
I think I was raised in apretty twisted household, but
(27:14):
one that nonetheless said take acrack at it.
That must be it.
Clearly.
There has to be somethingfoundational in your upbringing
that leads you to do things, anddo them with a lot of gusto.
You could call it gusto, youcould call it desperation,
desperation.
Well, desperation usually in alot of cases can work.
(27:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So who knows?
When I'm talking about thepilgrimage.
A totally different kind ofbicycling.
I was in a band when I joinedthe Del Fuego's.
I just stopped bicycle racing.
I wasn't on a bicycle for years.
It was a complete shift.
And then five years in the bandand then it was during
(27:58):
undergrad.
I started taking our historyclasses because I went to a
museum with my girlfriend andher mother and I'm standing in
front of these paintings goinglike I have no idea what to say
about this.
I'm not going to be in thisposition again.
I want to impress the mother soI can get the girl.
I'd better be able to saysomething about painting.
(28:20):
So, you went and got a PhD.
Yeah, it's just not Not justreadable, not an extremist at
all.
Not just like I'm going to brushup.
Well, this was before that, butyour point is taken.
But I started taking thesemedieval art classes.
I always loved the medieval.
I was three years intoundergrad and my brother said
(28:44):
hey, do you want to come backand do a European tour?
And I said, actually to seecathedrals, yes, I can take a
semester off and I'll do it.
Yeah, and the Spanish promoterscrewed things up so that it was
like actually you'd need toskip.
I was like, forget it, I'm notdoing it, get somebody else, I
(29:06):
can't miss two semesters.
But I already had it in my headthat I wanted to see cathedrals
.
So I went to the school andwould study this pilgrimage
route, which I thought no onehad done since the year 1100.
Oh, okay, wow, we're not alittle self-important, all right
?
This is pre-internet, so youcouldn't research.
(29:26):
Yeah, you're like I am the onlyone.
Well, I thought, once theystopped punishing serfs like the
pilgrimage, oh God.
It's since that time no one hassearched.
I'm the worst.
So I went to the school and Igot a thousand bucks and I
bought a bicycle for 100, planeticket for like 300, and then I
(29:51):
budgeted $10 a day for this trip.
And where I started this was wewere talking about
acknowledgements.
Yes, yeah.
One book I brought was ThomasMann's the Magic Mountain.
Of course, the End of MagicMountain.
Thomas Mann says now thatyou've finished the book, you're
(30:15):
qualified to read the book.
Oh, okay.
There we go.
That was a hard way to get tothat, but worth it.
So I feel like aboutacknowledgements, something it
really stuck in my head, like bythe end of the book you're
ready to read the book.
It's true, warren.
(30:35):
I swear that it's so accuratebecause after I finished your
book, I'm like I think I need toreread this.
You know, when I finished thebook and Bruce read it and he
said how can I help you?
It was where's the house?
You know I add this in the bookWhere's the house?
I want to see the house.
And we went out there togetherand it was such.
(30:59):
You know, you work on a bookfor a couple of years, you're so
.
It's very solitary.
You're in it together andyou're writing about this little
bedroom where somethinghappened and you're imagining it
and you're trying to see it.
To have the experience ofwalking into that bedroom with
the guy who made the record thatyou've been writing about is
(31:21):
super powerful and it remindedme of, like, the end of the
pilgrimage.
When you get to the cathedralin Compostela, you walk in the
front.
Before you enter into the nave,there's a marble column that
pilgrims have been putting theirhand on for a thousand years
(31:42):
and there's a human handprintthat goes like an inch into
marble because people havetouched it.
And you know, it's you know likeI was by myself on that.
I didn't speak French, I didn'tspeak Spanish, I wasn't with
anybody.
It wasn't until I crossed thePyrenees that I learned other
(32:04):
people did this and I could getsome help.
Go to the village priest andhe'll put you up Like it was.
Like whoa, I was camping inFort.
It was crazy.
Nobody knew where I was.
You go through all that andthere were times I was so
despondent Like this was thedumbest thing I've ever done.
How could I be the first personto do this?
(32:25):
This is crazy.
You know it's since the 1100s.
you mean yeah it was like it wascold.
I was hungry.
No wonder no one's doing this.
But then you get there and youput your hand into that Is that
kind of okay.
So just to connect to your whatyou said about going in that
room with Bruce.
(32:46):
That's the moment.
That's the moment it's like thefeeling is looking for those
kind of moments and I think thatyou seem to have that kind of
desire to have that kind ofconnection, extremely meaningful
as that moment.
We saw the interview you didwith Jim Axelrod in that room on
CBS Sunday Morning News, andJim is also one of our neighbors
(33:07):
here in Montclair.
He was an unbelievable friend tothis project.
Oh, really, I didn't know that.
After Bruce and I went to theNebraska house, we went back to
Bruce's house where he lives nownot the house, but he's got his
recording studio and garagesand their lounges and we went
(33:29):
back there.
I went back to that question.
He asked me like so what can Ido to help?
And I said you know, I don'twant to ask a bunch of things,
I'd rather ask one big one, andmy big one is would you do CBS
Sunday Morning and go hand inhand with me?
And he said yes.
And on the way home I calledJim Axelrod and only a few
(33:55):
people had read this book youknow Bruce is manager John
Landau and then I got it to Jimand we were already connected as
dads.
It was real Montclairexperience.
Like some, bobby would come onsummer vacations with us.
Bobby became like a part of ourfamily in so many ways.
(34:16):
It's so good.
So, it was a perfect interviewand you go and you see the room
and for some of the people thatlisten to us that are not
familiar with the album Nebraskaand the book that you've,
written, wanting to write anentire book about this album.
I like how you discuss about hismental sort of state, about
wanting to get through thisalbum before, why it came on the
(34:39):
heels of the album he had justreleased and before he went into
the next really famous album.
Yeah, I mean I still say itmight be the greatest left turn
in American music.
That makes no sense to do whathe did.
The door in for me really well.
(35:00):
Obviously, first was a lifelongrelationship with this album,
and I knew that when I washaving trouble in my life this
was one of those albums Ireached for.
Yeah.
So there's a kernel.
But then when he put out hismemoir Born to Run Nebraska goes
by so fast.
It's just a couple of pages,but right after it is the
(35:23):
centerpiece of the memoir, whichis Bruce talking about a
breakdown and a depressiveepisode and doing it in a really
vulnerable, forthcoming way.
And Bruce gets into therapy andin the book.
That book describes thebeginning of his life, odyssey.
(35:43):
Yeah.
And I'm like, wait a second,nebraska was by this fast.
And then the most importantmoment comes and I just I'm like
I am 100% sure they'reconnected.
And that's where the bookstarted.
Did you know Bruce at that time,Cause it didn't seem like you
had.
Maybe you had had run-ins withhim, but you didn't know him.
(36:08):
I knew him, he didn't know me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah but yeah, he'dplayed with our band once when
I was a teenager, when I was atthe Rock and Roll Hall of Fame I
did a tribute to Lead Bellythat I really wanted him to be a
part of.
And a couple months laterthere's a letter in my mailbox
(36:28):
at work and it's from Brucesaying I'm really sorry I
couldn't be there.
I still remember your old bands, you know I was like what you
know totally.
You remember that.
Yeah, like what.
And then Elvis HBO documentarythe Searcher John Landau was a
producer on that.
(36:48):
Yeah.
Tom Zimney was the director.
Tom helped me introduce theidea of a Nebraska book to John
Landau.
I went and did a session withJohn.
This is not in the book, butArt History came to my aid again
.
Ok, yeah, let's hear it.
Because I walked into John'shouse and I'm like taking off my
car heart jacket and I'm saying, is that a Coro?
(37:13):
Like I'm looking at you know?
And he looks at me and says yes.
Wow, and we're just kind ofstanding in the quiet.
And then I pointed anotherminute ago Is that Corbe?
Oh, no way, and he goes to.
a nice that he has those as anart collector, I've met some
(37:37):
yeah.
None working at his level.
Wow, that's unbelievable.
Yeah, but after the Corbe thinghe just doesn't even say yes.
He yells to his wife and says,yeah, you got to come.
He might be the only person inthe music business who
(37:58):
recognized these wonderfulartists.
Yeah, and then he.
And then we talked about art forquite a lot and then we got
down to business and at the endof the interview he said I don't
tell Bruce what to do, but I'mgoing to suggest to him that he
would have a good time talkingto you like I did today.
(38:19):
Yeah, and then you know, weeklater John called me on my cell
and said uh, bruce is in.
Wow, and then you're.
You know, then you're into abook.
Well, you know, I would say thatat that moment you would freak
out.
But I don't know if you did,because you've you've worked
(38:43):
with so many legends.
Yeah.
But I feel like you're justprobably like oh yeah, of course
.
I felt like.
I felt like a lot of like, likeexcitement, but where my mind
goes to is like I want to askhim.
My mind goes to what I want toask him yeah.
And he's incredible becausehe's of his openness Like you're
(39:06):
not, it's.
It's not excavation, he is aself excavating individual.
Right.
Your approach is going to bedifferent.
Some people do the excavation.
You don't need to do that withhim.
It's much more like how can weget to places that maybe he's
he's never gone and quite theway I hope he does Causal
(39:29):
relationship between Nebraskaand a kind of breakdown, like we
really hit it directly.
Like he says I don't know ifyou can make it causal he went
somewhere with that record.
He went into some, you know,place within that was suffering
(39:52):
and he went there by himself andhe went there, you know,
without flashlights and tools.
What do people do?
They, you know they either gothere and they don't come back,
or they go there, they come backand they do some rebuilding.
And that's what he did.
And I felt that helped meunderstand, born in the USA,
(40:15):
like how do you go from that tothe next?
And that's really what the bookis about.
It's funny, you know we thinkof like cultural artifacts.
We think of them as reflectionsof the maker's identity and
it's like I think they're morelike the reflections of the
(40:37):
maker's search for theiridentity.
It's different.
And I think Springsteen's outputcan be viewed in that way.
He's super inquisitive, hecomes from some hard stuff and
the thing we get is what hethrew off along the way, as he,
(40:58):
you know, went to find out.
And as he's learning abouthimself, yeah, yeah totally, and
Nebraska is.
You know when he says aboutNebraska, it still may be my
best, yeah, I would almosttranslate it to mean it still
may be the one where I found outthe most about myself.
(41:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know that's hard stuff,that's not high-fiving, you know
Really, binding out aboutyourself it's painful, it's not
a victory lap moment Right.
And it was done in a time whentherapy and self-examination
(41:40):
wasn't, you know, so common andwe didn't know all the books for
it, he did it unconsciously,which is really even more
interesting about it and whatinspired Nebraska are very dark,
scary yeah you wouldn't thinkthat let's look at a serial
killer and put myself in theirlike mindset is going to help me
(42:01):
figure out more about my pain.
That is incredible, Like I'mstill knocked out by it.
Yeah.
Like you know, one part of me islike I'll take credit.
I'll take credit for this book,but he did this stuff.
He gave me something to writeabout.
I didn't come up with that.
(42:22):
Right.
Well, you know, let's okay.
Everybody should check out thisbook, because it it.
I first of all I just want tosay you're an excellent writer,
excellent storyteller.
It was completely an enjoyablebook, I mean everybody.
I would recommend it to anyone,even if they aren't a music you
(42:43):
know expert or a BruceSpringsteen expert.
It's just fascinating and wellwritten.
Having heard that also about theTom Petty book, I haven't read
the Tom Petty book but I haveheard, read and seen the reviews
of it.
It is just considered amasterpiece of a biography and
you've written with Garth Brooksand it seems like you know your
(43:05):
strength as a writer ispossibly all rooted into all of
this.
That you've told us is thatyou've got this personal
connection to the struggles thatpeople have of being a musician
and of, you know, loneliness,and also you understand the
whole concept of what you toldus about Cleveland.
You know is like the idea ofselling out and it not really
(43:28):
being a sellout.
You know you have all of thesethings to understand, especially
with really huge artists, youknow.
So it's, you're a fascinatingperson in and yourself.
Well, thank you, and you know Ido feel I say to my sons I'm
like do not expect to get aslucky as dad got.
You never know yeah.
(43:50):
It's just like don't don't bankon it.
Or don't try to recreate whatyou've created.
I think about that too.
As parents, you know whenyou're talking to your kids, or
you know as I look at my ownparents.
It's not a path that you justcreated and you followed every
step in order to get where youare.
You followed who you are andyou took opportunities that came
(44:12):
along and it became your life.
But it's not false humility whenI say there's a lot of luck
involved.
Yeah.
So then you like, as a parent, Ilook at like, okay, well,
what's not about luck?
Well, identifying mentors andlearning to learn from them.
Yep.
Learning to work with teachers.
(44:33):
Okay, I did that well.
Yes.
But also, like you know, myundergrad degree, like the art
history, was just to get laidinitially, but I was doing
creative writing to, you know,to be a writer.
At the end of that I got theEnglish prize and then I got the
(44:59):
creative writing prize and Iconsidered myself a failure
because I wasn't published inthe New Yorker.
Oh yeah, now had I eversubmitted to the New Yorker or
any other journal.
No, because I'm so afraid offailure.
Yeah, but I considered it over.
I was ashamed.
But now you're a New York Timesbestseller, so right, right.
(45:23):
But you know, I say this onlylike in case there's some
younger person.
Watch out for those voices,they'll stop you.
Yeah.
And I did stop and I took thisacademic path and my writing was
academic writing, where thewhere the luck comes in is just
some chance encounters thatcreated almost like a seam into
(45:49):
another kind of writing, and mybook about Dusty and Memphis was
one of those.
How did that happen?
Somebody set me up on a blinddate with a fellow artist, Joe
Bernice, and in the middle ofthe thing Joe said you should
write a book in this series andI took ideas that were in my
dissertation and it was veryacademic and I did this remix.
I felt like I was getting awaywith murder in this thing.
(46:12):
And then Tom Petty reaches outto me because he read it.
It's incredible.
That's such a good point.
You took the opportunity andyou just did it.
Yeah, but I really thought I wasdoing something stupid.
I did not think I was doing theright thing.
I just didn't know how else todo it.
So I created something that Ilook back and I'm like man.
(46:34):
That was the key moment for meas a writer was to go don't
worry about conventions.
Yeah.
You can mess with the form.
Which is what Nebraska did.
You know, it's like the samething, yeah.
It's like.
It's not in the spirit of likeinvention, it's like me going
like.
I think this is the best way totell the story.
(46:58):
Aww, look how cute Hi.
This has to be on video.
now I know who is this.
This is Toby.
Cute.
I know he's been we're all dogpeople, so I'm looking around a
few times.
A couple of times he looked oncue.
When you said something likeprofound, You're like yeah.
He doesn't know this, but we'regetting in the car tomorrow and
(47:19):
I'm driving to Nashville.
Yes, I wanted to ask you aboutthis.
Okay.
So so you are going to be atthis amazing Nashville live
recording concert and recordingright, I'm assuming.
Well, it's being shot for it'llbe aired on PBS and it's what I.
(47:40):
It's what I did in Montclair,like the Montclair Literary
Festival gave me my dreamplatform, which was I want to do
something.
I've done one of these inrelation to Tom Petty and it was
I got off stage doing that andI said whatever just happened
there was the most me I've everfelt doing something.
(48:01):
So I was like I want to dosomething where I, I read, I
talk, but there's musiciansplaying the songs relating to
what I'm talking about inbetween.
So it's worth music, words,music.
And then I want to have amarionette so that I can talk to
(48:22):
Bruce Springsteen.
And that's where it started.
Okay, did that, exactly thatlast part about this marionette.
My agent said please.
No, just not the Marionette, notmake a very every of Bruce
Springsteen.
That's the way to do.
(48:42):
A pitch, though, is like to getthe anything that you want,
just throw some.
Wild card in there and they'relike okay, everything but that
but when I did the Tom Petty onemy sister made a Tom Petty
Marionette for me did talk tohim and.
I bet it was a success that oneseems like it would.
Somehow it seems to work withTom Petty, I don't know why.
(49:02):
Well, I'm not alive that.
That is one reason that it'seasier.
It ended up surprising everyonebecause it was like the
emotional center of the nightbecause people Suspend their
knowledge of that's a puppet?
I'm pretty sure it's not apuppet, it's Tom Petty, you know
(49:27):
, and he was.
Tom Petty was asking me if mymother was still growing pot,
and I'm like no, you know, shestopped and it's like yeah, like
.
Did the Tom Petty Marionettesmoke a joint?
No, no, it was like we didn'teven rehearse that show, so I
had the guitar player.
He's like really.
(49:47):
I gotta do this.
I'm like somebody's gotta.
Everybody was like.
That's not gonna work but it's.
Event I did not have a BruceSpringsteen Marionette, but I
had a A Charles Stark weatherMarionette.
Oh, that kind of seems more,yeah, but whoa, I think Nobody
(50:07):
respond.
Good, I think they were justlike okay, so you brought a
Marionette.
Murderer.
So this is just to say,montclair, you know that's.
That's one of those days,montclair, let me do.
The literary festival gave methis platform.
Montclair showed up for me,really moving to me, like I
(50:29):
really got to do what I wanted,and yeah or a Cantrell was there
and Steve Earl was there andJames Maddock was there playing
music.
So I've done this show in a fewdifferent places.
In Nashville my friend JedHilli runs the Americana Music
Association and they've gottheir big annual conference
(50:50):
happening.
Right, did you get to pick themusicians is what I need to ask
you about the musicians I seethe list of the musicians that
are coming to perform.
So it's Nashville one, so you'realready in a great, the best
place.
It's the first night ofAmericana.
You're in an even better placefor it the artists playing songs
(51:12):
from Nebraska.
We have Noah Kahn.
I know my daughter, bridget, isObsessed with him.
Saw him play in Radio CityMusic Hall.
She knows every single lyric.
We listen to it in the careverywhere, all the time.
So when she saw the city, oh,which is my favorite off the
(51:34):
Nebraska album.
Yeah, yeah, man, okay.
So then we got Lyle.
Love it, Use cars and myfather's house.
Perfect.
Emie Lou Harris.
What's emie Lou doing?
Who's my favorite?
Emy is starting because I've gotyou know it goes from the river
into Nebraska, so she's doingthe price pay from the river.
(51:55):
Oh.
Doing Nebraska.
Oh, Emmie Lou Harris.
And then the luminaires aredoing state trooper and mansion
on the hill.
Lucinda Williams is doing theNebraska version of Born in the
USA.
But Eric Church just joined andwe're figuring out what songs
(52:19):
he's doing now.
So cool, it's really wild for me.
Like you know, these are.
I'm not bringing a marionette.
Are you like that would reallymight be a detraction.
Yeah, parking, but I think, Ithink Toby is like he is telling
(52:39):
us that it's time to wrap up,probably I.
Have to say he does this like.
I'm pretty like out with mysobriety.
You know I'll be clean.
It's over for 30 years.
In December.
Congratulations.
Thank you, and I'm in an hour ameeting.
(52:59):
This dog knows the serenityprayer, like he jumps in my lap.
Oh, so he's waiting for theserenity prayer.
Yeah, yeah, don't you peopleever say the serenity prayer.
Like it's time Serenity prayertime.
It's kind of like dinner time.
Instead it's serenity prayertime.
Yeah Well, Warren, thank you somuch for coming on, yeah it has
(53:22):
been a pleasure and we'relooking forward to watching this
.
On Coming up it'll air in 2024.
Oh, oh man really not far away.
Okay, it says a live televisiontaping 2023.
Yeah, it's.
I think he shouldn't have saidthe word live in there, because
(53:43):
that suggests that it's airinglive.
Yeah.
I think he just means there arepeople in the audience.
Well, I.
Got it All right, so good thingI don't have to figure out how
to like record it for my family.
Yeah.
My mother has asked me.
She's asked me 20 times.
Well, we'll let everyone knowwhen it is out.
(54:03):
Congratulations.
Yeah, thank you for spendingtime with us.
Thank you both, that was reallyfun.
I'm glad.
I'm glad for and we'll followyou in Nashville.
All right, all right, bye Warren.
This podcast is produced byRachel Martens and Jeanette of
Sharrion.
Please follow us on Facebookand Instagram.
(54:24):
We hope you share this pod withyour friends and family and let
us know what you think.
Check out our website atlostinjerseysite and don't
forget to get lost, oh.
Get Lost in Jersey with Rachel and Jeanette talking about life
just outside New York City.
Before we begin our episodetoday, I just wanted to remind
everybody to hit subscribewherever you're listening to
your podcast, so that way younever miss an episode.
Thanks a lot and I hope youenjoyed today's conversation.
Hi Rachel, hey Jeanette.
(00:23):
So we just finished ourinterview with Warren Zanes.
Yes, it was an incrediblejourney conversation of where he
came from and all the way tothe Bruce Springsteen book
Nebraska that he has out.
That's a blockbuster it is.
It was such a wonderfulinterview.
Give a little bit of a backstoryabout Warren, because there's a
(00:44):
big.
He's got a long list of things,of accomplishments.
So Warren Zanes is a musician, awriter, also a professor.
His new book, which we'retalking about, is called Deliver
Me from Nowhere the Making ofBruce Springsteen's Nebraska,
and he's talking about theNebraska album which a lot of
fans don't really evennecessarily know about.
(01:07):
As he says in the interview, itwas a left turn from an artist.
It's really in a lot of waysrepresentative of maybe Bruce
Springsteen's inner soul and atime in his life and what he was
going through.
So Warren's book takes usthrough that personal, very
personal journey for BruceSpringsteen and what he went
(01:28):
through and what's going throughand how he came about writing
that album.
Yeah, we talk a little bit aboutthis, about Jim Axelrod's
interview with them and that isthe very Sunday morning.
Yeah, At the very end of thatinterview, Jim Axelrod says if
you want to enjoy BruceSpringsteen, listen to anything.
If you want to know BruceSpringsteen, listen to Nebraska.
(01:50):
And Bruce Springsteen agreed.
Yes, I think so.
So I think this book that Warrenhas written about Bruce
Springsteen's album Nebraska isso good.
But what's also so interestingis understanding the author,
warren Zanes, and the journey ofhim being a teen musician a
(02:11):
very, very successful teenagermusician and the journey that he
went on after that a big partof the rock and roll hall of
fame he got a job there and theconnections that he made there
and growing up and also he wroteabout Tom Petty in a very
successful book as well, andjust who Warren is and Warren's
journey and how that relatesinto how he wrote about Bruce
(02:35):
Springsteen.
Yeah, we can't cover everythingthat Warren's done, but we cover
some of what Warren has doneand it's a great interview and I
hope everybody enjoys it.
Hello Warren.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Thank you for coming on.
Lost in Jersey.
We want to know first of all, alittle bit about your journey
to here, like how you got here,and also to talk about the book.
(02:59):
Now we want to talk a lot aboutyou as well, in addition to the
Bruce Springsteen book thatyou're doing a lot of press for
right now, and Rachel and I werekind of joking around earlier
that when we were researchingyou and then having you come on,
we almost felt like we werestudying for an exam.
We were like oh my God.
I'm cranting.
There's so much to cover.
(03:21):
Holy crap.
There's just so many otherthings I also wanted to talk to
you about besides the book, so Iwanted to also be able to get
that in this interview.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'll go with your firstpart.
How did I get here?
Because, if you could go back,my son's, lucian, he's 20 now
(03:44):
Piero is 18.
He came when Piero was one andI feel like a lot of families
not to overgeneralize, but thereare a lot of families coming
from Park Slope in Brooklyn.
Yes.
They come to either Maplewood orMontclair.
That's right.
Because there's enough of whathappens in Brooklyn or Manhattan
(04:08):
out here that people don't feellike they're going to die, but
their kids can also go out inthe yard.
Yeah.
And they can walk to school andit doesn't seem formidable and
no subways are involved.
But that wasn't our story,because between Park Slope and
(04:30):
Montclair there was Cleveland,ohio.
We were in Park Slope and thenI got offered a job at the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame as theirVP of education and programs.
This for me was like going fromthe mailroom to the executive
office, right.
(04:51):
Yeah.
But I had never made money, I'dnever had salary.
No one in my family had jobs.
So that was the first real job,yeah.
It wasn't teaching, wasn'tplaying in a band, it wasn't
working on a book that you'd getvery little money for, if any.
(05:11):
It was a real job and theyexpected me to show up in the
morning and leave at the end ofthe day Was that frightening,
was it like a little?
Nerve-racking Of course.
I felt like I was involved indeep theater.
(05:32):
Yeah.
I have to figure out how toconvince them that I know what
I'm doing.
Yeah, but my first executivemeeting.
It was all just the VPs and theCEO and I could see I was the
youngest guy there by I don'tknow 10 years, at least maybe a
bit more.
I could see one of the otherVPs looking at horror and horror
(05:55):
at my hand and I'm like why isthat dude looking at my hand?
And I had everything I neededto do written on my hand.
Oh my God, I love it, that is soperfect and I've been doing
this for years and it was amoment of like.
Okay, I got to change some ofmy practices.
I guess I need a notepad.
(06:16):
A notepad, yeah.
Yeah, just like, fit the norms.
Yeah, fit the cultural norms.
I will say that my anxietyabout that subsided really
quickly.
I saw some benefits of beingnot to overdo this chapter, but
it was really important for mebecause I was ashamed of taking
(06:40):
this job.
I thought I was gonna losecredibility as a musician like
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Well,what's the man if the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame isn't the man?
I was like well, I'm gonna loseall credibility as an artist.
I might not see my kids as muchas I want to.
(07:00):
There was only one at the time.
It was so radical as a changeand I was wrong about so much my
life today, what I get to do,which I still.
I say this with a real measureof authenticity.
I'm still surprised at what Iget to do.
(07:21):
But had I not walked throughthe door of that job where they
expected me to show up in themorning and leave at the end of
the day?
What I got to do there?
It expanded my possibilities insuch a dramatic way and I
didn't lose my credibility assomebody who could pick up a
guitar and write a song.
What happened was my optionswere expanded radically and it
(07:45):
taught me how narrow my view isof the world, like I get shit
wrong all over the place.
Yeah, it's such a good lesson.
That is such a good lesson,warren, especially for that
artist mentality, because I'vehad it before, too, where I've
thought I have to be a waitressin order to be an actor.
(08:09):
I can't do X, y and Z, no,because this is the trope and I
need to follow it, and it'spretty wrong.
Well, it's almost like when youare a waitress you are an actor
Like.
I needed to see.
I needed to have some sensethat like it's not about I use
(08:32):
my creativity here and I don'tuse it there.
It's like if I choose to be acreative person, I use it
everywhere.
You use it everywhere, yes yes,I needed to be taught that that
job taught me.
But then, on the family side,it was the beginning of the end
of marriage number one out there.
It was real sacrifice to go toCleveland.
(08:54):
You think going from Brooklynto Montclair is hard?
Yeah, so here's what happened.
And this is back to my originalpoint.
It was different for us.
When we came to Montclair itwas after two and a half years
in Cleveland, so Montclair feltlike Paris.
(09:15):
Yeah, I'm sure it did.
We knew how to use the suburbs.
We knew what a lawn was for.
We knew how to drive to thegrocery store.
Mm-hmm.
And yet we could get on a trainand go to MoMA.
The best of both worlds there.
Yeah, well, I'll tell you.
So today is Friday.
(09:36):
I sent one, took one kid out toPortland Oregon for college,
and then the second one leftWednesday.
So I'm in day two of my firstempty nest experience.
So when that?
comes it's.
You know, I'm a single guy.
(09:57):
I could sell this house and gointo the city and I wish I could
get back the hours I've spenton real estate sites.
That's another issue entirely,but you know, it's like oh wow,
I'm hesitating Like I didn't, itturns out.
I didn't come here just forthem.
(10:17):
Some part of me is beingwell-served by this, and I'm
looking out at this magnoliatree that I'm truly like, in
love with.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwho you were before the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame.
You know you were a rock staras a teenager.
(10:38):
I've never thought of myself asa rock star, but I got to
inhabit that space, the world,to a degree.
Mm-hmm yeah.
The real rock stars can bemeasured in real estate.
I couldn't be so not to make itmaterial but, yes, I got to
(10:59):
have an experience.
That was the kind of thing, thesubstance of dreams.
Yeah, how old were you when itall started to take off with the
Delft Legos?
I was in my last year ofboarding school when my brother
called me on the dorm pay phoneand said I thought he was just
(11:20):
calling to say hello.
And you know, this is back inthe great age of pay phones.
Yeah, I know, I love it we allare the same, we're familiar.
We're with you, yeah.
We're gonna be called.
There's a phone call for each ofyour brother.
So I was like, hey, let's go.
And he's like, oh yeah, I wentto see the Blasters last night.
Blasters were banned on SlashRecords and I was like, oh cool.
(11:46):
So he's talking about this andit's like, yeah, it was really
good.
And then he starts talkingabout Phil and Danny of Alvin
it's a brother band and then hesays I think maybe we should try
that.
And it's like what Like, do youwant to join the Delphi?
It goes and I was like I reallydidn't see this coming.
(12:09):
Wait, did he already have theband going Like, or was it okay
so?
He had it going and he was likedo you want to come join us?
Yeah, look, they'd already putout a single.
They put out a single.
They printed 2000 copies ofthis single.
This single, like Robert Plantpicked up a copy of it and
(12:29):
talked about it in Rolling Stone.
Oh, my God.
Sam Phillips, who recorded ElvisPresley at Sun Records, who
recorded Howlin' Wolf.
He got a copy of it.
Like how did that happen?
I don't know.
Sam Phillips talked about it inRolling Stone.
They didn't need me.
My brother had an idea.
(12:50):
Yeah.
So I said yes so fast that ittook me a couple of minutes to
say wait, like what am I goingto do in the band?
Because you weren't a musicianat that point.
Well, I like I like I playeddrums to who records in our barn
, like I never been on stage.
(13:12):
I was a bicycle racer is what Iwas, you know?
Really serious about racingbicycles.
But I was hanging out more andmore with the band and so then I
was like, well, what am I goingto do?
He's like you're going to bethe second guitar player, like
you'll play lead guitar, and I'mlike, okay, How'd you played
guitar?
No like.
(13:33):
I had three months.
I had three months before myfirst gig to learn to play
guitar.
I went into Boston, we went toa store, we bought a Sears
Silver Tone amp.
Nice.
And bought a guild singlecutaway, like one that Keith
(13:53):
Richards played at a certainpoint.
And then we went and bought acopy of the Rolling Stones Now,
which is Ryan Jones era, and mybrother just said just go listen
to this.
And so I mean so, how about yourfirst gig?
I need to understand this yourfirst gig you get out there and
you're like I bet again, you'reterrified, you know, or were you
(14:15):
just like?
You know, I'm just whatever.
I mean, if we can use thelanguage of you know whatever
language you want.
Yeah, the language of recoverywas like I was already
disassociating all over theplace, Like yeah, A part of it
was like how drunk were you?
Yeah, if I had felt stage fright, that would have been an
advance, like you know.
(14:37):
So I was just up there, it washappening, I was doing it, I
didn't know who I was, I didn'tknow what was going on, I didn't
know, I didn't know how lonelyI was gonna feel.
Everybody else went off tocollege and I got an apartment
with the drummer Steve and mybrother Dan, and those guys
(14:59):
never stayed there.
They always stayed with theirgirlfriends.
And.
I remember I didn't have.
I didn't have a clock, and sothere's a period where I'm in
this band but I didn't have ajob.
I'm in this apartment by myself, I have no clock, and it was
like you know.
It's the kind of basement level, so your window is where your
head is, and I would get up andI would smoke pot, have a cup of
(15:25):
coffee, and then I'd go to thewindow and wait for somebody to
walk by and say, excuse me, doyou know what time it is?
No, I didn't even think thiswas strange.
That is so crazy Great.
It's so endearing.
I like I want to come back thereand be like it's okay, do you
(15:45):
need someplace to stay?
Oh, like, help, yeah, but youwouldn't have had intercourse
with me.
I mean, that's who I was, youknow.
You could tell my I'm alwaysthe caretaker, Totally totally.
Yeah it's like take me home.
I'm lonely.
(16:06):
Let's have sex and never seeeach other again.
Yeah, that was the life of theteen world then.
For sure, and that kind ofatmosphere that probably is very
accurate.
But I was also too.
I was so young, I was even, youknow, in relation to the Boston
music scene, I was a baby, youknow.
(16:26):
So there were a lot of.
When I first joined, a lot ofthe girls were like, you know,
we don't know whether we shouldbabysit them or nurse them,
Right.
Yeah, you're so young.
Right and so.
I had, I started going.
I wasn't into hardcore, but Istarted going to hardcore shows
because they were high schoolgirls.
Right.
Like you're trying to findsomeone your age, yeah, but it
(16:50):
was like weird.
They're like what's the guy fromthe Del Fuego's doing here,
like they're kind of happeningand like nobody, you know.
I didn't say to people well,I'm here.
Because I'm super lonely.
Yeah, I'm super lonely and Idon't know.
Do you want it to becomecorrect?
Intercourse with someonetonight.
Intercourse.
Especially if you said it likethat, if you said intercourse,
(17:12):
that was not going to work outfor you.
Well, ok, so let's say, let'stake you a little fast forward,
you a little bit.
So that band, how long were youin the Del Fuego's?
Because I know that it didbreak up and I think that it was
a little bit of a transitionperiod of your life.
I'm sure to once that.
(17:33):
And I'd be honest yesterday, itwas a transition period, I mean.
I won't Me too.
They just don't stop thismorning has been a transition.
Yeah, we're all, Jeanette and I.
Every day, we're in atransition, yeah.
We just get to share it witheach other.
Yeah, Like I think I mow my lawnand trim my hedges so that it
(17:55):
feels less like everything's atransition.
So something's consistent,something's like staying.
Yeah, I'm looking for thesebuoys, but yeah, so the band you
know, I left when I reallyrealized my brother wasn't going
to cut me in on the creativelife which is really the
songwriting.
Yeah.
(18:18):
And he had given me theimpression that he was going to
and then he didn't.
But it wasn't saying your songsaren't good enough, he was like
they're good enough.
He said you should go form yourown band and I felt deep, deep
betrayal.
And years later I said you know, you got to come into therapy
(18:39):
with me.
I got a serious wound aroundthat.
Yeah.
You know, I think the true woundwas, you know, our father
really abandoned us.
When I was two.
He left and looked back, and sowhen I've had moments of things
ending in that hard way, itjust triggers that stuff.
I didn't know that then.
(19:00):
I thought it was, I justthought my brother was an
asshole.
Yeah.
But it turns out it was a biggerpicture, but all the feeling it
was a very, very intense time.
You know, when you're in a bandit's so funny, like I finally,
with this latest book, the bookabout Springsteen's Nebraska
record and the acknowledgmentsfor the first time I was really
(19:22):
able to thank my that band.
It choked me up really becauseyou know what you go through in
a band at that age is deep, deepstuff and it was deep, deep
(19:43):
hurt when I left.
But the miraculous part of itis everything that happened in
those five years was so crucialto the things I would do later
that would matter deeply.
(20:05):
So when I've had theseopportunities that remain
surprising to me on some level Ifeel like I do them well and I
feel like I earned them.
But at the same time they seemmiraculous.
But like spending time with TomPetty, who's a childhood hero,
spending time with BruceSpringsteen.
(20:26):
What has made the fabric ofthose experiences durable is
that I was in a band.
When we're talking about beingin bands, when we're talking
about turning songs into records, like I've been there, and so
in these acknowledgments forthis book, I was able to thank
(20:48):
these guys who, at differenttimes, I've wanted to kill you
know, woken up at 3am resentingthe hell out of them.
It's not just age, it's age andexperience that got me to like
God.
Some of the most preciousthings in my life were possible
because they had that experience.
That it's not the BA, it's notthe two master's degrees, it's
(21:12):
not the PhD.
It's five years in a rock androll band that gave me the
education that mattered the most.
I needed those other things,but those experiences were the
ones that really determined thecharacter of what I was going to
do.
Right, it's the foundationalyears that does come through in
(21:34):
your book that I just finishedas well, and listened to the
acknowledgments.
I almost stopped and then Iwent forward with it, listening
to the very, very end, and it'sactually quite poignant how you
are thanking so many people andhow you give those
acknowledgments.
It's really beautiful and I dothink that there's a massive
(21:56):
heart at the end of that bookthat people should not miss out
on.
My favorite part of writing abook is the acknowledgments, and
I'm just telling you like I'velearned about myself, that I've
got a lot of feelings inside andI manage them in different ways
of my life, but I think I'mgetting closer, maybe 10% of the
(22:19):
way, really getting in touchwith my interior life.
When you write theseacknowledgments, you're really
taking a look around to go like,well, who do I have to thank?
This isn't like man.
I got an ass-kicking agent andmy editor is like cream of the
crop.
Both of those things are true,but it's a moment to go a little
(22:43):
bit deeper and see your mentorsand see the people who weren't
mentors but supporters, thepeople who believed in you
before you believed in yourself.
That's the moment I love themost, but it is so deep, it's
(23:03):
very revealing, especially theway that you write it, because I
think that there is someactually information in there
about how the book was made inthe acknowledgments that wasn't
actually in the book, aboutpeople that help.
Yeah, it's like, if you don'tread the acknowledgments, you
kind of miss a very importantpart of it.
(23:25):
It's almost like theacknowledgments should tell you
on some level how to read thebook.
Yeah, yeah, it was interesting.
It's a crazy idea.
I remember reading I followedthe pilgrimage route to Santiago
de Compostela when I was inundergrad.
I wrote by myself.
I wrote my bike from Paris toSantiago.
(23:47):
Your biking?
Has that continued on?
I mean, is that?
This was a different kind ofbike.
When I was a bicycle racer, Iwas like, well, it's a wild
chapter.
I was sponsored by Jim Henson.
Wait, when was it?
It was 14 to 17 in there.
I just want to get sponsored byJim Henson.
(24:11):
When I went to boarding school,Brian Henson was there.
Brian runs them up.
I'm a buyer now.
He knew what I came from andthat I was serious about bicycle
racing.
Oh boy, you guys are justtouching too many nerves today.
Well, it's interesting, it'sfascinating to hear these things
(24:35):
that I don't like to know.
We want to talk about Bruce, butthe thing is that's pretty
covered.
We want to know about theauthor too.
Yeah, brian went to his dad andhis dad sponsored a balloonist.
He knew that his father didsomething.
He was like I had no idea.
What happened was I got toboarding school because I was a
(25:03):
ski racer.
We didn't have the money forski racing.
I figured out how to buyequipment wholesale and use it
for a season and make money.
You just had money to buy aseason pass.
You could learn how to ski.
You were in New Hampshire.
No, I was so that I could race.
I raced.
Eastern, which is the pointsystem.
(25:24):
When you're in the point system,you're in with the national
team.
I was serious about it.
I went to Phillips and over andpart of it was I was going to
ski race.
My mother insisted I seebreaking away.
I said to my mother, no, I'mnot going.
(25:47):
She kept pushing.
I watched this movie.
I went and sold all my skiequipment and I bought a racing
bicycle.
I didn't see people race.
They didn't.
At that time it was a totallydifferent culture.
I started bicycle racing.
I show up to Andover andthey're like yeah, well, we want
you to meet the ski coach.
You guys are going to start inthe fall.
(26:09):
I was like I don't know any skiequipment.
I sold it.
What?
You're a scholarship student.
This is what you're here for.
You don't need equipment.
I'm like, what do you say atthat point?
That's how clueless I was.
Oh my gosh, they started abicycle racing team.
Okay, so that you could.
(26:30):
Okay, so they kept you anywaywith your scholarship, but you
didn't have to ski anymore.
You could do bicycle racing.
I was their number one racer forthree years.
It was like well, amazing,Amazing.
So this is starting to.
Actually this is making sense.
This is something that's in youfrom a very young age, as you
(26:53):
said, transitioning from onething to another, to another, to
another, and all of them donebig, as it seems to be yes, you
don't do things long.
It's not how it feels.
I feel there's a lot of goodfortune.
I think I was raised in apretty twisted household, but
(27:14):
one that nonetheless said take acrack at it.
That must be it.
Clearly.
There has to be somethingfoundational in your upbringing
that leads you to do things, anddo them with a lot of gusto.
You could call it gusto, youcould call it desperation,
desperation.
Well, desperation usually in alot of cases can work.
(27:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So who knows?
When I'm talking about thepilgrimage.
A totally different kind ofbicycling.
I was in a band when I joinedthe Del Fuego's.
I just stopped bicycle racing.
I wasn't on a bicycle for years.
It was a complete shift.
And then five years in the bandand then it was during
(27:58):
undergrad.
I started taking our historyclasses because I went to a
museum with my girlfriend andher mother and I'm standing in
front of these paintings goinglike I have no idea what to say
about this.
I'm not going to be in thisposition again.
I want to impress the mother soI can get the girl.
I'd better be able to saysomething about painting.
(28:20):
So, you went and got a PhD.
Yeah, it's just not Not justreadable, not an extremist at
all.
Not just like I'm going to brushup.
Well, this was before that, butyour point is taken.
But I started taking thesemedieval art classes.
I always loved the medieval.
I was three years intoundergrad and my brother said
(28:44):
hey, do you want to come backand do a European tour?
And I said, actually to seecathedrals, yes, I can take a
semester off and I'll do it.
Yeah, and the Spanish promoterscrewed things up so that it was
like actually you'd need toskip.
I was like, forget it, I'm notdoing it, get somebody else, I
(29:06):
can't miss two semesters.
But I already had it in my headthat I wanted to see cathedrals
.
So I went to the school andwould study this pilgrimage
route, which I thought no onehad done since the year 1100.
Oh, okay, wow, we're not alittle self-important, all right
?
This is pre-internet, so youcouldn't research.
(29:26):
Yeah, you're like I am the onlyone.
Well, I thought, once theystopped punishing serfs like the
pilgrimage, oh God.
It's since that time no one hassearched.
I'm the worst.
So I went to the school and Igot a thousand bucks and I
bought a bicycle for 100, planeticket for like 300, and then I
(29:51):
budgeted $10 a day for this trip.
And where I started this was wewere talking about
acknowledgements.
Yes, yeah.
One book I brought was ThomasMann's the Magic Mountain.
Of course, the End of MagicMountain.
Thomas Mann says now thatyou've finished the book, you're
(30:15):
qualified to read the book.
Oh, okay.
There we go.
That was a hard way to get tothat, but worth it.
So I feel like aboutacknowledgements, something it
really stuck in my head, like bythe end of the book you're
ready to read the book.
It's true, warren.
(30:35):
I swear that it's so accuratebecause after I finished your
book, I'm like I think I need toreread this.
You know, when I finished thebook and Bruce read it and he
said how can I help you?
It was where's the house?
You know I add this in the bookWhere's the house?
I want to see the house.
And we went out there togetherand it was such.
(30:59):
You know, you work on a bookfor a couple of years, you're so
.
It's very solitary.
You're in it together andyou're writing about this little
bedroom where somethinghappened and you're imagining it
and you're trying to see it.
To have the experience ofwalking into that bedroom with
the guy who made the record thatyou've been writing about is
(31:21):
super powerful and it remindedme of, like, the end of the
pilgrimage.
When you get to the cathedralin Compostela, you walk in the
front.
Before you enter into the nave,there's a marble column that
pilgrims have been putting theirhand on for a thousand years
(31:42):
and there's a human handprintthat goes like an inch into
marble because people havetouched it.
And you know, it's you know likeI was by myself on that.
I didn't speak French, I didn'tspeak Spanish, I wasn't with
anybody.
It wasn't until I crossed thePyrenees that I learned other
(32:04):
people did this and I could getsome help.
Go to the village priest andhe'll put you up Like it was.
Like whoa, I was camping inFort.
It was crazy.
Nobody knew where I was.
You go through all that andthere were times I was so
despondent Like this was thedumbest thing I've ever done.
How could I be the first personto do this?
(32:25):
This is crazy.
You know it's since the 1100s.
you mean yeah it was like it wascold.
I was hungry.
No wonder no one's doing this.
But then you get there and youput your hand into that Is that
kind of okay.
So just to connect to your whatyou said about going in that
room with Bruce.
(32:46):
That's the moment.
That's the moment it's like thefeeling is looking for those
kind of moments and I think thatyou seem to have that kind of
desire to have that kind ofconnection, extremely meaningful
as that moment.
We saw the interview you didwith Jim Axelrod in that room on
CBS Sunday Morning News, andJim is also one of our neighbors
(33:07):
here in Montclair.
He was an unbelievable friend tothis project.
Oh, really, I didn't know that.
After Bruce and I went to theNebraska house, we went back to
Bruce's house where he lives nownot the house, but he's got his
recording studio and garagesand their lounges and we went
(33:29):
back there.
I went back to that question.
He asked me like so what can Ido to help?
And I said you know, I don'twant to ask a bunch of things,
I'd rather ask one big one, andmy big one is would you do CBS
Sunday Morning and go hand inhand with me?
And he said yes.
And on the way home I calledJim Axelrod and only a few
(33:55):
people had read this book youknow Bruce is manager John
Landau and then I got it to Jimand we were already connected as
dads.
It was real Montclairexperience.
Like some, bobby would come onsummer vacations with us.
Bobby became like a part of ourfamily in so many ways.
(34:16):
It's so good.
So, it was a perfect interviewand you go and you see the room
and for some of the people thatlisten to us that are not
familiar with the album Nebraskaand the book that you've,
written, wanting to write anentire book about this album.
I like how you discuss about hismental sort of state, about
wanting to get through thisalbum before, why it came on the
(34:39):
heels of the album he had justreleased and before he went into
the next really famous album.
Yeah, I mean I still say itmight be the greatest left turn
in American music.
That makes no sense to do whathe did.
The door in for me really well.
(35:00):
Obviously, first was a lifelongrelationship with this album,
and I knew that when I washaving trouble in my life this
was one of those albums Ireached for.
Yeah.
So there's a kernel.
But then when he put out hismemoir Born to Run Nebraska goes
by so fast.
It's just a couple of pages,but right after it is the
(35:23):
centerpiece of the memoir, whichis Bruce talking about a
breakdown and a depressiveepisode and doing it in a really
vulnerable, forthcoming way.
And Bruce gets into therapy andin the book.
That book describes thebeginning of his life, odyssey.
(35:43):
Yeah.
And I'm like, wait a second,nebraska was by this fast.
And then the most importantmoment comes and I just I'm like
I am 100% sure they'reconnected.
And that's where the bookstarted.
Did you know Bruce at that time,Cause it didn't seem like you
had.
Maybe you had had run-ins withhim, but you didn't know him.
(36:08):
I knew him, he didn't know me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah but yeah, he'dplayed with our band once when
I was a teenager, when I was atthe Rock and Roll Hall of Fame I
did a tribute to Lead Bellythat I really wanted him to be a
part of.
And a couple months laterthere's a letter in my mailbox
(36:28):
at work and it's from Brucesaying I'm really sorry I
couldn't be there.
I still remember your old bands, you know I was like what you
know totally.
You remember that.
Yeah, like what.
And then Elvis HBO documentarythe Searcher John Landau was a
producer on that.
(36:48):
Yeah.
Tom Zimney was the director.
Tom helped me introduce theidea of a Nebraska book to John
Landau.
I went and did a session withJohn.
This is not in the book, butArt History came to my aid again
.
Ok, yeah, let's hear it.
Because I walked into John'shouse and I'm like taking off my
car heart jacket and I'm saying, is that a Coro?
(37:13):
Like I'm looking at you know?
And he looks at me and says yes.
Wow, and we're just kind ofstanding in the quiet.
And then I pointed anotherminute ago Is that Corbe?
Oh, no way, and he goes to.
a nice that he has those as anart collector, I've met some
(37:37):
yeah.
None working at his level.
Wow, that's unbelievable.
Yeah, but after the Corbe thinghe just doesn't even say yes.
He yells to his wife and says,yeah, you got to come.
He might be the only person inthe music business who
(37:58):
recognized these wonderfulartists.
Yeah, and then he.
And then we talked about art forquite a lot and then we got
down to business and at the endof the interview he said I don't
tell Bruce what to do, but I'mgoing to suggest to him that he
would have a good time talkingto you like I did today.
(38:19):
Yeah, and then you know, weeklater John called me on my cell
and said uh, bruce is in.
Wow, and then you're.
You know, then you're into abook.
Well, you know, I would say thatat that moment you would freak
out.
But I don't know if you did,because you've you've worked
(38:43):
with so many legends.
Yeah.
But I feel like you're justprobably like oh yeah, of course
.
I felt like.
I felt like a lot of like, likeexcitement, but where my mind
goes to is like I want to askhim.
My mind goes to what I want toask him yeah.
And he's incredible becausehe's of his openness Like you're
(39:06):
not, it's.
It's not excavation, he is aself excavating individual.
Right.
Your approach is going to bedifferent.
Some people do the excavation.
You don't need to do that withhim.
It's much more like how can weget to places that maybe he's
he's never gone and quite theway I hope he does Causal
(39:29):
relationship between Nebraskaand a kind of breakdown, like we
really hit it directly.
Like he says I don't know ifyou can make it causal he went
somewhere with that record.
He went into some, you know,place within that was suffering
(39:52):
and he went there by himself andhe went there, you know,
without flashlights and tools.
What do people do?
They, you know they either gothere and they don't come back,
or they go there, they come backand they do some rebuilding.
And that's what he did.
And I felt that helped meunderstand, born in the USA,
(40:15):
like how do you go from that tothe next?
And that's really what the bookis about.
It's funny, you know we thinkof like cultural artifacts.
We think of them as reflectionsof the maker's identity and
it's like I think they're morelike the reflections of the
(40:37):
maker's search for theiridentity.
It's different.
And I think Springsteen's outputcan be viewed in that way.
He's super inquisitive, hecomes from some hard stuff and
the thing we get is what hethrew off along the way, as he,
(40:58):
you know, went to find out.
And as he's learning abouthimself, yeah, yeah totally, and
Nebraska is.
You know when he says aboutNebraska, it still may be my
best, yeah, I would almosttranslate it to mean it still
may be the one where I found outthe most about myself.
(41:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know that's hard stuff,that's not high-fiving, you know
Really, binding out aboutyourself it's painful, it's not
a victory lap moment Right.
And it was done in a time whentherapy and self-examination
(41:40):
wasn't, you know, so common andwe didn't know all the books for
it, he did it unconsciously,which is really even more
interesting about it and whatinspired Nebraska are very dark,
scary yeah you wouldn't thinkthat let's look at a serial
killer and put myself in theirlike mindset is going to help me
(42:01):
figure out more about my pain.
That is incredible, Like I'mstill knocked out by it.
Yeah.
Like you know, one part of me islike I'll take credit.
I'll take credit for this book,but he did this stuff.
He gave me something to writeabout.
I didn't come up with that.
(42:22):
Right.
Well, you know, let's okay.
Everybody should check out thisbook, because it it.
I first of all I just want tosay you're an excellent writer,
excellent storyteller.
It was completely an enjoyablebook, I mean everybody.
I would recommend it to anyone,even if they aren't a music you
(42:43):
know expert or a BruceSpringsteen expert.
It's just fascinating and wellwritten.
Having heard that also about theTom Petty book, I haven't read
the Tom Petty book but I haveheard, read and seen the reviews
of it.
It is just considered amasterpiece of a biography and
you've written with Garth Brooksand it seems like you know your
(43:05):
strength as a writer ispossibly all rooted into all of
this.
That you've told us is thatyou've got this personal
connection to the struggles thatpeople have of being a musician
and of, you know, loneliness,and also you understand the
whole concept of what you toldus about Cleveland.
You know is like the idea ofselling out and it not really
(43:28):
being a sellout.
You know you have all of thesethings to understand, especially
with really huge artists, youknow.
So it's, you're a fascinatingperson in and yourself.
Well, thank you, and you know Ido feel I say to my sons I'm
like do not expect to get aslucky as dad got.
You never know yeah.
(43:50):
It's just like don't don't bankon it.
Or don't try to recreate whatyou've created.
I think about that too.
As parents, you know whenyou're talking to your kids, or
you know as I look at my ownparents.
It's not a path that you justcreated and you followed every
step in order to get where youare.
You followed who you are andyou took opportunities that came
(44:12):
along and it became your life.
But it's not false humility whenI say there's a lot of luck
involved.
Yeah.
So then you like, as a parent, Ilook at like, okay, well,
what's not about luck?
Well, identifying mentors andlearning to learn from them.
Yep.
Learning to work with teachers.
(44:33):
Okay, I did that well.
Yes.
But also, like you know, myundergrad degree, like the art
history, was just to get laidinitially, but I was doing
creative writing to, you know,to be a writer.
At the end of that I got theEnglish prize and then I got the
(44:59):
creative writing prize and Iconsidered myself a failure
because I wasn't published inthe New Yorker.
Oh yeah, now had I eversubmitted to the New Yorker or
any other journal.
No, because I'm so afraid offailure.
Yeah, but I considered it over.
I was ashamed.
But now you're a New York Timesbestseller, so right, right.
(45:23):
But you know, I say this onlylike in case there's some
younger person.
Watch out for those voices,they'll stop you.
Yeah.
And I did stop and I took thisacademic path and my writing was
academic writing, where thewhere the luck comes in is just
some chance encounters thatcreated almost like a seam into
(45:49):
another kind of writing, and mybook about Dusty and Memphis was
one of those.
How did that happen?
Somebody set me up on a blinddate with a fellow artist, Joe
Bernice, and in the middle ofthe thing Joe said you should
write a book in this series andI took ideas that were in my
dissertation and it was veryacademic and I did this remix.
I felt like I was getting awaywith murder in this thing.
(46:12):
And then Tom Petty reaches outto me because he read it.
It's incredible.
That's such a good point.
You took the opportunity andyou just did it.
Yeah, but I really thought I wasdoing something stupid.
I did not think I was doing theright thing.
I just didn't know how else todo it.
So I created something that Ilook back and I'm like man.
(46:34):
That was the key moment for meas a writer was to go don't
worry about conventions.
Yeah.
You can mess with the form.
Which is what Nebraska did.
You know, it's like the samething, yeah.
It's like.
It's not in the spirit of likeinvention, it's like me going
like.
I think this is the best way totell the story.
(46:58):
Aww, look how cute Hi.
This has to be on video.
now I know who is this.
This is Toby.
Cute.
I know he's been we're all dogpeople, so I'm looking around a
few times.
A couple of times he looked oncue.
When you said something likeprofound, You're like yeah.
He doesn't know this, but we'regetting in the car tomorrow and
(47:19):
I'm driving to Nashville.
Yes, I wanted to ask you aboutthis.
Okay.
So so you are going to be atthis amazing Nashville live
recording concert and recordingright, I'm assuming.
Well, it's being shot for it'llbe aired on PBS and it's what I.
(47:40):
It's what I did in Montclair,like the Montclair Literary
Festival gave me my dreamplatform, which was I want to do
something.
I've done one of these inrelation to Tom Petty and it was
I got off stage doing that andI said whatever just happened
there was the most me I've everfelt doing something.
(48:01):
So I was like I want to dosomething where I, I read, I
talk, but there's musiciansplaying the songs relating to
what I'm talking about inbetween.
So it's worth music, words,music.
And then I want to have amarionette so that I can talk to
(48:22):
Bruce Springsteen.
And that's where it started.
Okay, did that, exactly thatlast part about this marionette.
My agent said please.
No, just not the Marionette, notmake a very every of Bruce
Springsteen.
That's the way to do.
(48:42):
A pitch, though, is like to getthe anything that you want,
just throw some.
Wild card in there and they'relike okay, everything but that
but when I did the Tom Petty onemy sister made a Tom Petty
Marionette for me did talk tohim and.
I bet it was a success that oneseems like it would.
Somehow it seems to work withTom Petty, I don't know why.
(49:02):
Well, I'm not alive that.
That is one reason that it'seasier.
It ended up surprising everyonebecause it was like the
emotional center of the nightbecause people Suspend their
knowledge of that's a puppet?
I'm pretty sure it's not apuppet, it's Tom Petty, you know
(49:27):
, and he was.
Tom Petty was asking me if mymother was still growing pot,
and I'm like no, you know, shestopped and it's like yeah, like
.
Did the Tom Petty Marionettesmoke a joint?
No, no, it was like we didn'teven rehearse that show, so I
had the guitar player.
He's like really.
(49:47):
I gotta do this.
I'm like somebody's gotta.
Everybody was like.
That's not gonna work but it's.
Event I did not have a BruceSpringsteen Marionette, but I
had a A Charles Stark weatherMarionette.
Oh, that kind of seems more,yeah, but whoa, I think Nobody
(50:07):
respond.
Good, I think they were justlike okay, so you brought a
Marionette.
Murderer.
So this is just to say,montclair, you know that's.
That's one of those days,montclair, let me do.
The literary festival gave methis platform.
Montclair showed up for me,really moving to me, like I
(50:29):
really got to do what I wanted,and yeah or a Cantrell was there
and Steve Earl was there andJames Maddock was there playing
music.
So I've done this show in a fewdifferent places.
In Nashville my friend JedHilli runs the Americana Music
Association and they've gottheir big annual conference
(50:50):
happening.
Right, did you get to pick themusicians is what I need to ask
you about the musicians I seethe list of the musicians that
are coming to perform.
So it's Nashville one, so you'realready in a great, the best
place.
It's the first night ofAmericana.
You're in an even better placefor it the artists playing songs
(51:12):
from Nebraska.
We have Noah Kahn.
I know my daughter, bridget, isObsessed with him.
Saw him play in Radio CityMusic Hall.
She knows every single lyric.
We listen to it in the careverywhere, all the time.
So when she saw the city, oh,which is my favorite off the
(51:34):
Nebraska album.
Yeah, yeah, man, okay.
So then we got Lyle.
Love it, Use cars and myfather's house.
Perfect.
Emie Lou Harris.
What's emie Lou doing?
Who's my favorite?
Emy is starting because I've gotyou know it goes from the river
into Nebraska, so she's doingthe price pay from the river.
(51:55):
Oh.
Doing Nebraska.
Oh, Emmie Lou Harris.
And then the luminaires aredoing state trooper and mansion
on the hill.
Lucinda Williams is doing theNebraska version of Born in the
USA.
But Eric Church just joined andwe're figuring out what songs
(52:19):
he's doing now.
So cool, it's really wild for me.
Like you know, these are.
I'm not bringing a marionette.
Are you like that would reallymight be a detraction.
Yeah, parking, but I think, Ithink Toby is like he is telling
(52:39):
us that it's time to wrap up,probably I.
Have to say he does this like.
I'm pretty like out with mysobriety.
You know I'll be clean.
It's over for 30 years.
In December.
Congratulations.
Thank you, and I'm in an hour ameeting.
(52:59):
This dog knows the serenityprayer, like he jumps in my lap.
Oh, so he's waiting for theserenity prayer.
Yeah, yeah, don't you peopleever say the serenity prayer.
Like it's time Serenity prayertime.
It's kind of like dinner time.
Instead it's serenity prayertime.
Yeah Well, Warren, thank you somuch for coming on, yeah it has
(53:22):
been a pleasure and we'relooking forward to watching this
.
On Coming up it'll air in 2024.
Oh, oh man really not far away.
Okay, it says a live televisiontaping 2023.
Yeah, it's.
I think he shouldn't have saidthe word live in there, because
(53:43):
that suggests that it's airinglive.
Yeah.
I think he just means there arepeople in the audience.
Well, I.
Got it All right, so good thingI don't have to figure out how
to like record it for my family.
Yeah.
My mother has asked me.
She's asked me 20 times.
Well, we'll let everyone knowwhen it is out.
(54:03):
Congratulations.
Yeah, thank you for spendingtime with us.
Thank you both, that was reallyfun.
I'm glad.
I'm glad for and we'll followyou in Nashville.
All right, all right, bye Warren.
This podcast is produced byRachel Martens and Jeanette of
Sharrion.
Please follow us on Facebookand Instagram.
(54:24):
We hope you share this pod withyour friends and family and let
us know what you think.
Check out our website atlostinjerseysite and don't
forget to get lost, oh.
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