ANTHONY LANZONE, ESQ.: Elder Abuse, Arbitration & Your Rights - Part 2 - Love Conquers Alz

Episode Transcript
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Don Priess (00:00):
When the world has got you down, Alzheimer's sucks.
It's an equal opportunitydisease that chips away at
everything we hold dear. And todate, there's no cure. So until
there is, we continue to fightwith the most powerful tool in
our arsenal, love. This is Loveconquers all's a real and really

(00:22):
positive podcast that takes adeep dive into everything,
Alzheimer's, The Good, The Badand everything in between. And
now here are your hosts, Susiesinger, Carter and me. Don
Priess,

Susie Singer Carter (00:40):
hi everybody. This is Susie singer,
Carter,

Don Priess (00:42):
and I'm Don Priess, and this is Love conquers alls,
and we have a this is, this isdifferent than we normally have,
because we have a continuationof a conversation we had.

Yeah, this is a part, this is a part two of
a conversation that we had withour with a guest that is a elder
care attorney. Is that dogbarking too much? Are we good?
Everybody? Are we good?

Don Priess (01:09):
It just depends small dogs. Listen.

This is a podcast that's right, yeah, last
week we had an incredibleconversation, but we ran out of
time with right Don and so we'regoing to pick this up on take
two, and our Part Two rather,but we had a very dynamic
conversation. So if you'relistening to this now, please

(01:35):
listen to part one first,because there's a lot of
information, amazing informationthat you'll want to know. And I
did a post last week after withwith AMP. Well, why don't you
give an introduction to to ourguest first,

Don Priess (01:54):
Anthony land zone is the founding partner of land
Morgan LLP, a firm built oncourage, compassion and justice.
Earning his Juris Doctor fromWestern State College of Law,
Anthony went on to completeadvanced training in dispute
resolution at PepperdineUniversity's renowned Strauss
Institute. He's an active memberof the Consumer Attorneys of

(02:14):
California and the AmericanAssociation for Justice, driven
by a lifelong passion to standup for injustice. Anthony has
dedicated his career toadvocating for the rights and
dignity of vulnerableindividuals in nursing home and
elder abuse cases and holdingpowerful institutions
accountable. And we are honoredto have him back as our guest

(02:36):
today. Anthony lenzone,

so after our conversation with Anthony
last week, I am, I did a greatpost that I don't know if he saw
it. I tried to tag him, butabout, you know why it's
important to at least, you know,try, try to talk to somebody and
try to at least get, you know,hold these, hold these places

(02:59):
accountable.

Anthony Lanzone (03:00):
Here's the thing, if you don't do that, if
you have a viable case, and youdon't do that, then you're not
holding people to account. Andby not holding people to
account, you're encouraging theconduct to continue. Exactly
perfect. You know. Is it goingto change what happened? No.
Does one case change the world?
No. But cumulatively, it has to.
And I've seen changes in theindustry over 20 plus years,

(03:24):
and, you know, just making themmore aware, I think, has been a
positive thing.

And I got so much response, because people
were like, We want to know more.
We want to know more. So this isa very, you know, dynamic top
topic that doesn't get talkedabout enough. And people are
under all, all kinds ofmisunderstandings. And so we're,
we're, we're setting out to totry to clear up some of those
misunderstandings as complicatedas it is, right? So let's jump

(03:52):
into it, Don

Don Priess (03:54):
so let us welcome our fabulous guest in our part
two. Anthony land zone, hello,Anthony.

Hello Don Suzy, thanks for having me back.

Well, thank you for coming back. You're,
you're a champ of the highestkind. There's my, my great. I
appreciate that. Last time wespoke, Anthony, we spoke about,
you know, the burden of, like,taking the the actual, you know
why? Why elder care and neglectcases are so difficult. We

(04:26):
talked about that, and there's ahigh burden of truth. Is
expensive to litigate, there'sarbitration traps, there's
systemic barriers like insuranceand Medicare and Medicaid
incentives and on and on and on.
And so we wanted to come backand talk to you more about that,
and dig in a little deeper. AndI think, like, what can you tell

(04:47):
us a little bit about how, thewhen, when companies that are
taken to court, or, you know, ifyou, if you actually. They are
successful in having a caseagainst a corporation or a
facility, or what, what happensand how, why? How are they able

(05:08):
to declare bankruptcy and getaway with that?

Well, bankruptcy is part of the legal
system, and people that cannotpay their debts or have the
right to file for bankruptcy.
Now the bankruptcy have to haveto be legitimate, though they
can't be collusion or thingslike that. The interesting thing
about bankruptcy court is,oftentimes, there are things

(05:37):
that if you're not in bankruptcycourt, some of the actions would
be considered illegal andactionable, but if you can get a
bankruptcy judge to approvewhatever acts you're doing, then
you can get away with it. And sowe have dealt with bankruptcies

(06:00):
in the past, and I have a lot ofstrong opinions about the
bankruptcies that I've dealtwith in the past. Some have been
legitimate and some, in myopinion, have not been
legitimate. And I'm not abankruptcy lawyer. Every time
there's a bankruptcy involvingone of my cases, we have to hire
a bankruptcy lawyer. That's awhole different universe. And so

(06:22):
I don't really know. I'mprobably not the best person to
talk about the bankruptcies, butI can tell you that the nursing
homes are very good at filingfor bankruptcy. It appears to me
that some of these operators,not all of them, but some play
the bankruptcy game, where theyoperate and they accumulate

(06:44):
debt. They accumulate debt andclaims accumulate debt and
operations, and they get to apoint where they can't
accumulate any more debt andoperate, at which time they file
for bankruptcy. And there's alot of shenanigans that can go
on it in the in the bankruptcycourt, and in some instances

(07:04):
I've had, I've had experienceswhere they file for bankruptcy,
get the debts discharged, andthe sale of the entity
essentially goes back to theowners in a different form,
different name. That doeshappen, and it's part of the

(07:27):
legal process, and when ithappens, we got to deal with it
and try to get the best resultfor our clients that we can
under the circumstances.

Thank you that it's so frustrating. It
really is, because we hear itall the time, you know, and like
these cases can take years andyears and years and years, and
then this is, what a date. Thisis the culmination of it.

But I would say Susie that that's the exception.
The bankruptcies really are, youknow, for as many cases I've
dealt with over the years. Youknow, every once in a while
there's a bankruptcy but, but itis the exception, and it's, you
know, it's definitely notsomething that I worry about

(08:15):
very often when we're litigatingthese cases,

that that's good to know. I mean, from what
you know, I guess, from mypartner's perspective, the
former federal prosecutor, thethings that he didn't the cases,
and I think probably more withthe larger, more franchise,
like, like class action suits,those things happen because the
stakes are very high, and that Iwould assume that that it

(08:43):
happens more often in thosesituations, when we're talking
about hundreds of millions ofdollars in judgments you know at
stake. You wanted to talk aboutarbitration, and I think that
people need to understand thatas caregivers like, what? What
exactly is that? How is it bakedinto your your contract with a

(09:04):
long term care and how does itactually work like you know? And
how is it a negative for thecaregiver and family?

When somebody is admitted to a long term care
facility, they're given acontract to sign and that in the
form of a skilled nursingfacility. These contracts are at
least 100 pages long. It's a lotof legal jargon. There's a lot
of different parts to it, andwhen they give this document to

(09:40):
you. You're in a stressful spot.
You're having to make decisionsabout a loved one's care that
you probably don't have a wholelot of experience with, and
you're not seeking out a lawyerto review the contract. You're
probably not even reading thecontract. You don't care. You're
just going to. Whatever you needto do because you think you're
doing the best thing for yourloved one. Make no mistake about

(10:03):
arbitration agreements. They arethere for one reason, and that
is to benefit the provider.
There is nothing in there tobenefit the consumer. I believe
in arbitration agreements, but Ido not believe in pre dispute
arbitration agreements, it makesabsolutely no sense, because

(10:27):
consumers aren't able toanticipate what this what the
dispute may be. And 90% I shouldsay, most of the time, they have
no idea that the arbitrationclause is in there, and no one
really discloses it to them orand people don't mean.

What does that mean? Pre just
predetermined dispute.

So a pre dispute arbitration agreement is
when I when I enter into acontract with you and say, we're
going to do bit business andwe're going to agree to
arbitrate any disputes. Sothere's no dispute yet, but
we're entering into agreementthat if that, if we do have one,
we're going to do an arbitrationthat's what I don't believe in.

(11:09):
If people get into a disputeafter the fact and they want to
go arbitrate their clean claimafter the fact, a post dispute
arbitration agreement, those arefine, because people are
consciously they know what theproblem is. They know what their
rights are, and if they want togo arbitrate it after the fact,
that's fine, but, but whatpeople don't realize, and here's

(11:29):
the big danger in the term oflong term care or is that you're
not required to sign thearbitration agreement in order
to get the care and services atthese facilities, they don't
tell you that, but you're notrequired to. They can't reject
you as a resident if you refuseto sign the arbitration

(11:51):
agreement. And people need tounderstand that you're not
required to do that, and Isuggest that you don't, and if
you are considering it, you needto contact the lawyer about it.
I've I'm not social media savvy,but for what, from what I do do,
I get out there that, hey, ifyou are a loved one or about to

(12:12):
go to a long term care facilityand they want you to sign a
contract, send me the contract.
I'll look at it. I'll advise youon it, no charge, just I want
people to understand whatthey're getting themselves into
and what their rights are.

Don Priess (12:29):
Have you heard of situations where they the
facility says, Hey, unless yousign this? I mean, they you say
they can't do it. But do theystate, or they go ahead and say,
unless you sign this, you know,we can't do this. And if they
say that, what do you do?

I'd say that that's the exception. That's
rare, that that happens most ofthe time. They just try to throw
it in the middle of all thestuff. Sign here, sign here,
sign here, sign here. And myguess is that the person that's
getting the paperwork signed,you know they're just doing
their job, and they just want togo through it. And if you say,

(13:07):
Hey, I'm not going to sign that,they they're aware that they're
not required to do that. So butarbitrations are a big deal, and
we just had a case at theSupreme Court of California last
year. 20 years ago, I was on alosing end of a case called
Garrison, where the appellatecourt disagreed with me and

(13:28):
said, if you have a health carepower of attorney and you sign
an arbitration agreement, thenyou have The authority to bind
that person to arbitration. AndI made it my goal, I'm going to
get that overturned one day. Andlo and behold, last year, the

(13:49):
Supreme Court came down andsaid, No, a health care power of
attorney does not give thatperson authority to sign
somebody's constitutional rightto trial by jury away and so but
if you have a durable healthcarepower of attorney, that question
still open. The courts have beeninterpreting that that they do,
in fact, have the power to enterit into that contract. So it's

(14:11):
complicated and and what'sreally upsetting in the care
industry is that it's so unfairbecause of the circumstances
where you're signing all thispaperwork, the only thing that
these people are worried aboutis getting their loved one the
care that they believe that theyneed, that they're being told

(14:32):
this place can take care of yourloved one. They're not even
considering the contracts thatthey're signing or the paperwork
that they're signing, nornecessarily should they be so
it's really frustrating when weget cases where these
arbitration agreements exist andthen you have to disclose to the
clients who are already feelinghorrible, right? They have this
guilt. They're the ones that puttheir loved one there. They

(14:55):
believe in the people in thewhite coats, we're going to do
the right thing. And then nowthey find. Find out I got
victimized again by anarbitration that I was totally
unaware of, or and, or what itmeant, right?

So if, when you go into arbitration, maybe,
maybe I just want to re Go, goover this one more time when you
go, because I went into anarbitration agreement with a
lawyer that was repping my momand repping my mom when, when I
was trying to get a an outsidefiduciary to take a look at my
mom's account, because mybrother was doing shenanigans,

(15:33):
okay, and she she, she didn'tsucceed. And then I got, like, a
this master bill, like, sixmonths later, as if she was
still working for me and I andthen she said, Well, you better
pay it, you know, or, you know,I'll take you to court. And so I
said, take me to court. I mean,you're done. We were done, like
I don't owe you this money,right? So we went into

(15:55):
arbitration, and everyone, likemy brother in law, who's a
lawyer, he said, you're going tolose because it's all stacked in
the lawyer's favor, right? And,and I'm not, I'm just saying the
arbitration in general. I'm nottalking, I'm not saying lawyers.
But so it's, you know, I won thearbitration because the lawyer

(16:17):
that was that was overseeing it,you know, was phenomenal, and he
really caught her in a bunch oflies and wrote this incredible
like essay or whatever theysubmit at the end their
reasonings for which was so, sovalidating, but, but when you go
into an arbitration, let's say Iwanted to indict this woman, or,

(16:42):
you know, at least report her tothe bar. I mean, do, when you go
through that and you do, youhave to win your arbitration in
order to go to court. Is that?
How it, if, like, how does thatwork? What is the process? So if
you, let's say you, youunfortunately signed the
agreement has an arbitrationclause, you go into arbitration
and you lose, because it's statin the favor of the nursing

(17:06):
home. You that it you're done.
You have no leg to stand on.

That's it, exactly. So I need to explain
kind of the disadvantages to tothe consumer with with
arbitration agreement. So numberone, arbitrations are extremely
expensive. Why? Because you haveto pay the arbitrator for their
time right make these decisionsand to hear the case and hear

(17:34):
the evidence, weigh the evidenceand make it make, make a
decision. The consumers don'tknow that, and we're talking 10s
of 1000s of dollars, maybe bythe time an arbitration is done,
hundreds of 1000s of dollars,just in cost to the arbitrator.
So that's the firstconsideration. The second one is
most of the arbitrationagreements and most of the rules

(17:56):
of arbitration significantlylimit the scope of discovery. It
limits the number of depositionsthat you can take. It limits the
the amount of written discoverythat you can do. Elder abuse
neglect cases are reallycomplicated and really difficult
to prove, and the only way thatwe can do that is having a wide

(18:18):
scope of discovery so that wecan do what we need to do in
order to meet in our in order tomeet our heightened burden of
proof. And so with thatlimitation, the likelihood of
proving your elder abuse case inarbitration goes down
substantially. In addition tothat, the the art, I should say,

(18:42):
arbitration. The reason, one ofthe reasons why the defendants
want to go there is because theyfeel as though it takes the risk
out of a big damage award like ajury would give right. And the
reason why they think that isbecause, generally speaking,
arbitrators are retired judgesor retired lawyers. Lawyers tend

(19:03):
to have seen it all before,right there. They've been the
judge, and they have seen thisbefore. So there's no shock
value where, when you have ajury, and you show a jury a
stage four bedsore and explainto the jury how they got this
through some type of recklessconduct that has a lot of shock
value. And so again,arbitrations are there for one

(19:26):
reason, just to protect thedefendants from these things
that they're worried about whenthey have to approach a jury
trial. You're right. Susie, whenan arbitrator makes a decision,
makes a decision, they write uptheir opinion, the prevailing
party runs down to court says,here's the opinion judge. The
judge signs a judgment forwhatever that opinion says, and

(19:47):
that's the end of it. The onlyway you know there has to be
some type of egregious conductor something strange about the
arbitration, the only way to,you know, to get the court to
maybe. Change, change the order,and that is very rare and very
difficult to do, and I've neverheard of it ever happening,
although it's possible.

Okay, so I'm confused. So how does anyone
take a nursing home to to courtif, if there's always an
arbitration agreement or, Imean, they seem to be baked into
all of these contracts. How dowe How does anyone get around
that?

Yeah, well, you'd be surprised. There's a
lot of technical things that thelaw requires of these
arbitration agreements from thecolor of the font on certain
parts of it to the font size tospecific things that need to be

(20:53):
in the contract for it to bebinding. Most of the time, it
comes down to the person who'ssigning the contract, having to
having the legal authority to dothat, most of the time they
don't, or if they have theelderly victim sign the
contract, that comes down tocapacity. Most of the time they

(21:14):
don't have the capacity. And somost the time, I'd say, again,
arbitration is the exception,not the rule, with the types of
cases that we do, but we do endup in arbitration sometimes, and
you know, that's okay if ithappens, but we'd rather not be

(21:37):
there, because, again, This, thedeck is usually stacked against
the consumer.

Don Priess (21:43):
So you said that just, you know, we don't waive
our right to trial, ourconstitutional right to trial,
because we agreed to go intoarbit. I mean, once you sign it,
but if it's that, it's like,Okay, it's time to go to
arbitration. Can you just say,No, I'm not waiving my
constitutional right I want togo to trial instead. Or how does

(22:04):
that or you've signed it that itmust go to arbitration at that
point. Yeah, because at whatpoint? So you're only saying
that that happens before yousign it. You can say, I'm not
going to sign this because I'mnot going to waive my rights to
trial. Is that correct?

Correct if you sign a binding arbitration
agreement, there's no takebacks, you are stuck with that
to the end, and you do waiveyour right to trial by jury,
which I don't know why anybodywould want to do that, to be
honest with you. I just, youknow, that's the whole system
set up for that. And people thatcome up with these alternative
forms, you know, they may makesense for for certain business

(22:43):
type transactions, but consumerarbitration agreements generally
are just unfair to the consumer.

And so you just kind of doctors. We see
that when you, when you go to anew doctor, I know, I, you know,
I just had surgery earlier thisyear, and I mean, I just
remember, like, every one of oneof those pages says, you know,
we go into arbitration, it hasan arbitration agreement, yeah?
And I always, I'm always thinkabout that, and I'm hesitant,

(23:12):
and I think, well, I don't thinkthey're gonna operate on you if
you don't sign that.

Yeah, you know, those arbitration agreements to
also say on the agreement thatit's it's not a requirement to
receive the care. And I'll tellyou a personal experience. I had
a problem with my eye, and I wasin so much pain, and I went to
this ophthalmologist because myoptometrist referred me to this

(23:38):
person, and there was anarbitration agreement, and it
said, right there, you don'thave to sign it to get care. And
I told the lady at the frontdesk, I said, I'm not signing
that. And she argued with me,and I said, it says right there,
you don't have to sign it. And Iwas in so much pain, I signed
it, gave it back to her, andthen it also said that you have

(24:00):
30 days to withdraw, oh, youryour your signature, your
agreement. And so just the nextday, I wrote a letter saying, I,
I withdraw this.

Don Priess (24:12):
And that's all it takes. Is a simple it's it just
takes a simple letter. There'sno other forms you have to fill
out. You've just read us andsaying, I'm resending my, my
right, correct.

So, so long as the arbitration agreement says
that you have 30 days towithdraw your authority, so long
as it says that, and most ofthem do, then that's all it
takes is, you know, you wantsomething in writing.

But it's so weird, how if all of these
plays, if all of these, youknow, offices have these and
include them, and most of ussign them because a we're in
pain or, you know, we don't,we're not thinking, we're just,
we're signing the papers, andwe're talking to someone, and
we're just, you know, not payingattention. And then some
malpractice happens. How do youhow do malpractice? I know I'm

(24:57):
getting off the topic of nursinghome, but how if. If, if, if
there is abuse and neglect inthe nursing home, and you've
signed it, and it's obvious,like how it just seems, it just
seems like, Who would ever havethe right to take somebody to
court? Then if, if it's alreadybaked in, and you don't know
about it, like none of us dountil they hear this job, this

(25:22):
episode conquers all.

Yeah, well, I mean, like, like, I said that,
that the arbitrations are theexception. They're not the rule.
And we've done arbitrations, butbefore and my clients have been
able to get, you know, holdpeople accountable in
arbitration as well. It's justnot the forum that you want to
be in for all the reasons that Istated, it's not the end of the

(25:46):
world, but generally speaking,if you have a really strong case
with real egregious conduct,you're probably going to do
better in front of a jury thanyou are with an arbitration but
again, it's not the end of theworld. You can still, you know,
seek justice in in thearbitration world.

And when you said, you know, it's
expensive arbitration,expensive. Who? Who encouraged
those, those those expenses, isthat the facility or the or the
residents, yeah.

So most the time, the arbitration agreements
will say that the parties agreeto split the arbitration fees.
Sometimes I've seen arbitrationagreements that say the
defendant will incur thearbitration fees. But again,
that's that's rare, but thecost,

that's when you run, if it says that's when
you go this place, is horrible.
Get the hell out.

It's just expensive. And people need to
understand that, and they needto understand what they're
signing. And it's just a shame.
Just take advantage of people'sduress to kind of get what they
want.

Don Priess (27:04):
So, so let's say I've signed it, and now I'm
going to arbitration. I don'thave a lawyer. I'm just me. I
assume you would recommendpeople not go into arbitration
without a lawyer. But though, oris, I mean, Susie did? She went
against a lawyer, just herselfand she won. But that's a

(27:25):
different, little differentsituation. So who? So then now,
because when you do a case,you're you're on a contingency,
you're like, on a whatever, 30or 40% but in this case, there
does that still exist. Or how doyou handle when somebody comes
to you and says, I have anarbitration what do we do? Or
what do I do?

Well, number one, if you are litigating a
case of elder abuse, neglect oranything, I highly suggest you
have a lawyer. It's complicated.
In arbitration, you definitelyneed a lawyer. I mean, nobody
can deal with all the all thelegal intricacies of these cases
on their own. The arbitration.

(28:12):
I'm sorry, Don can you know, I

Don Priess (28:14):
was just saying, you know, there's obviously going to
be a cost to that your time.
There's going to be a cost tothat, because in the
arbitration, there may be nomonetary you know, you may not
get anything that. I don't knowhow that will work. So you
obviously there will be a feeinvolved, and it's different
than if you took on a case andsaid, We're gonna either go to
trial or we're gonna settle. Andthat's where this fee is coming
from.

So there will, there are lawyers out there,
like me that will doarbitrations on a contingency
fee. It's just an extra addedexorbitant cost, and but there's
a lot of lawyers that won't dothat, and so arbitration, again,
is another that's anotherexample of how it impedes

(28:55):
accountability and justice,because it just makes it that
much more difficult to find alawyer to pursue the case,
because it is an arbitration

Don Priess (29:05):
What's your recommendation to somebody? I
mean, they you're you're you,and they may, you know, contact
you, but you're not going to beable to handle every case in the
United States. How do they findthose the right type of lawyer
for that? What's, what's theirbest path,

get on the phone. You know, picking a
lawyer is probably one of thehardest things to do, and I
always encourage everybody thatcomes to our firm. I always ask
them, have you talked to otherlawyers? You know, I need you to
go to go out and do your legworkto find the lawyer that you're
comfortable with, because we'redealing with very sensitive,

(29:45):
emotional types of cases, andyou need to be comfortable with
the lawyer. And the lawyersaren't going to come find you.
You got to go find them. And sotalking to your friends, your
family, referrals are great. Uh.
From other folks that know thelawyers, and so that's the only
way to do it. You got to do thelegwork, kind of like health

(30:06):
care, right? You got to go findthe right home for your mom or
dad. You got to go find theright assisted living place,
find the right doctor. They'renot going to come to you. You're
going to have to go do thelegwork for it, for sure. But
with technology now, it's prettyeasy to find that particular
lawyer with that specialty,regardless of what it is. And
you know, usually there's a lotof reputable people out there

(30:28):
that you have easy access toidentify who they are.

I have a question when so in your
practice, you were focused onelder abuse and neglect. Is your
practice the same as whensomeone is alive and there's say
financial elder abuse going on?
Is that something that you also

focused on?
Yes, one of the difficultieswith the financial abuse cases
is, you know, we can, we get alot of calls about that, and one
of the difficulties is, is whenyou're dealing with like the
phone scammers, when the elderlyfolks, you know, put money into
account somewhere, when you'redealing with the contractors

(31:16):
that say, Hey, I want to putsolar on your roof. Give me 10
grand. I'll come back and put iton. Those cases are really
difficult, because it's reallydifficult to get the money back
once it's gone it goes overseas,or it is overseas that makes
those financial elder abusecases really difficult to do

(31:38):
Susie, and it's a shame. I cantell you a story. We had a case
where a home health agency put acaregiver in a elderly woman's
home who had hip surgery, andshe was going to be, you know,
there for a couple months, andthen, you know, all in all

(31:59):
indications were the elderlywoman was going to be fine.
Well, what happened was thecaregiver started opening the
mail and found that she had abunch of money, and so the
caregiver kept the woman druggedup for an extended period of
time, while, all the while she'sstealing the money, and the

(32:21):
granddaughter, somehow was inFlorida or something, contacted
us, and we got involved. And inthat case, we were able to get
the money back, because thecaregiver was working for an
agency, so she was employed bysomebody that was a reputable

(32:41):
business owner that hadinsurance coverage for this type
of thing, and and we were ableto get that money back. But the
majority of the time, you know,people hire independent
caregivers, don't know wherethey're from, don't know what
their experience is, and they'lltake the money and run you never
see them again. And so thefinancial elder abuse cases, you

(33:03):
know, when people hire us,they're hiring us to get their
money back, and if it's youknow, doesn't make you know, if
the all odds are that we're notgoing to get the money back, it
doesn't make any sense to pursuea civil claim. So we have to be
wary of that when we take cases,but they're just tough. I'm

(33:24):
telling you this financialtough.

It's really tough because, again, in every
sector of elder care, there'ssuch a bias against the actual
person, against the person thatyou're litigating poor or right,
you're, you're trying to protectlike I was my mother's
conservator, person I, you know,I, I sought it legally. I went

(33:51):
into court. I was granted thatbecause my brother had changed
our, my mother's individual willinto a living will with my
stepdad, which I know she didn'twant, but she had Alzheimer's,
and he made himself trustee,where we were both trustees on
my mom's or, you know, Power ofAttorney equal on her will. So I

(34:12):
didn't, I didn't know it untilI, until I had to know it and
adapt. And when it, when it wasnecessary to for my brother to
do his fiduciary duty. He wasn'tdoing it, and I want and so the
lawyer that took me to courtthat I had to arbitrate, said I
could that we would file to havehim removed as fiduciary and

(34:35):
and, you know, ask the court togrant us a right to hire an
outside fiduciary, because Ididn't want the job. I just
wanted it to be, you know, Iwanted to know what my mom had.
So, because I was taking care ofeverything, I didn't even know
what, what was there for me tobe able to take care of her with
so when we went into court, thefirst time, the judge said to

(34:58):
the lawyer. With me, you don'thave standing. And I didn't
understand that. And why didn'tmy lawyer understand that I
didn't have standing. We wentback again, and we still didn't
have standing. And then mylawyer said, I can't do this for
free anymore, meaning becauseshe was going to get paid for my

(35:20):
mom's estate. And I said, Well,I've paid for all the filings,
like you told me, and now you'releaving me like stranded. And
she said, Well, you either haveto pay me or, you know, buy she
gave me a nice coffee mug. Andso I, I represented myself in
the courtroom and and and I had,I did everything. I mean, I'm a

(35:43):
pretty good student, and I didmy due diligence, and I had
everything, every reason why mybrother was not doing his
fiduciary duty. I never got achance to say anything, because
my brother hired this reallyhigh powered litigator who said,
if, you know, if Susie tries toget power of attorney or we're

(36:04):
gonna go, you know, she's justnot gonna get it, no, not power
of attorney standing, because Istill, by the way, number three,
I had no standing again like soshe said, If she tries to get
standing, we'll, we'll stop her.
We'll not try to stop her, andI'm very expensive, meaning my
brother would, you know, depleteall of my mom's funds to stop it

(36:24):
for no reason. So I, you know, Icut my losses, and I just said
it is what it is. If I have tosupport my mom, then whatever it
is. But, oh, is that like? Firstof all, how does a lawyer like
this lawyer that represented menot know that I don't have

(36:45):
standing and why don't I havestanding?

Okay, those are really good questions, and I
feel highly uncomfortablecommenting on that case, since I
don't know anything about it,other than what you just told
me, but something that you didsay, Susie, that that I think is
important, that I wanted tobring up, and it's kind of on
topic, okay, you know, all theseproblems that you had with your

(37:17):
way, with your brother, and allthe estate documents and all
that stuff, did you ever havethe opportunity prior to your
mom, you know, while she wasstill capable, at least, have
that conversation with herabout, you know, Hey, Mom,
what's the will say? What's thetrust say? What's the power of
attorney? What does this mean?
You want to happen when thishappens? What do you want to

(37:38):
happen when that happens? Did,you and your family get together
and and do all that? Yeah?

Yeah. My mom was like, do not come and go
my money. I don't want you knowmy husband's children to be to
have you know any you know,opportunity to take your
inheritance. Basically, I don'twant that. And you know, that's
just something she didn't want.
And I knew that. And then whenmy brother told me that it was
much easier to to have a livingwill, a living trust, that, you

(38:07):
know, it's just just makes itthe process much easier, I
believed him, but so I didn't goand I, you know, I just did. I
was so overwhelmed withcaregiving at that time that I
was like, oh, that's going tomake it easier. Fine, but I
didn't know that he took me off.
Yeah, he made himself, trust me,the

point that I want to make is and I'm guilty
as charged because I haven'tdone this yet either, because
it's, it's nerve wracking, but Ithink that estate planning
should be a family affair,meaning, you know, whoever the
beneficiaries are, whatever thetrustees want to happen, they

(38:50):
should be part of that from thetime when whoever's gifting this
stuff, or whatever it is makesthat decision. Because if you
you know you're you're readinglegal documents, they're
complicated, and every most ofthe time, people aren't lawyers,

(39:12):
and they just want to do byright, do right by by their
loved one when they're gone orwhile they're here when there's
power of attorney involved. Yougot to make health care
decisions like you. You have todeal with all that stuff, having
those conversations while, whileyour loved ones are capable of
having those conversations, Ithink they go a long way,
because it gets everybody on thesame page. Unfortunately, in

(39:33):
your instance, Suzy, it's kindof different. You got taken
advantage of, for sure, but Ithink the vast majority of
people would benefit from that,so that when there's a there's
an event like a heart attack orsomething, you got to go to a
nursing home, the person makingthat decision has already had
those conversations, and theyhave an understanding of what

(39:55):
the loved one wants under thosecircumstances, and it takes all.
All that angst out of it,because you're not having to
interpret legal documents, andwhat does this mean, and what do
they want? And I think that thatwould go a long way, and just
prevention of a lot of this typeof stuff that I deal with,
because it would have all beenkind of talked about and dealt

(40:17):
with upfront. And so that angstthat you feel when you're
getting thrown arbitrationagreements and 100 page
contracts, and I think, wouldmake people a lot more aware

and amenable to being aware,

yeah, and a lot more diligent in their efforts,
where they could really take theposition of more of an advocate
right off the bat, as opposedto, you know, a deer in a
headlight trying to make thesedecisions and figure everything
out while it's going, sure,

yeah, no, the crisis is the worst time to
make decisions. I mean, thatthat is the best case scenario.
What you just said. However, wedo know that families, you know,
are not immune to having doing,you know, the wrong thing, even
if those those decisions havebeen, you know, predetermined,

(41:14):
like what my brother did, whichwas, you know, not a good
choice. So, and I hear it allthe time. We talk about it, you
know, on love conquers all thetime about family members that,
you know, make, make decisionsthat are not the best for the
care, for their care II, butrather for themselves. And you

(41:37):
know, and so it that's aproblem. Legally, I don't know.
It's just, you know, it's justas much abuse as you know,
getting a stage four bed storein my mind, because if you can't
support the person that you'recaregiving for with the money
that they've accrued themselvesand they that's what it's there

(42:00):
for then that is abuse, and thatis taking advantage of someone
who is vulnerable and may not beable to speak up in themselves.
You know, I agree especially,yeah, so, I mean, I mean, do you
get a lot of those cases? Orjust, is it just me?

No, you know, we get so many calls, Suzy about
exactly what you're talkingabout, and it's not what we do.
And in fact, like I have otherpeople that I trust that I refer
those cases to, and to mysurprise, they're so busy they

(42:40):
can't take on any more work.
That's how crazy it is right nowwith all this estate litigation
stuff, it's, it's unreal all thedisputes to go I mean, and it's
not a surprise, because you haveall this wealth from the baby
boomers getting transferred, andit's just gonna, it's just gonna
go on and on and perpetuateitself. Just as people are

(43:03):
getting older, there's gonna bea ton of elder abuse and neglect
tech cases and long term carethe trust litigation is just
gonna overwhelm the probatecourts.

I'm telling you, everybody, you have to be
prepared. Like, you, likeAnthony, say, like, at least,
like, had I known, and if Iwasn't such a, you know,
Pollyanna and believed thateverybody was doing the right
thing. And if I had, you know,been more involved with my
brother, mentioned that he wasgoing to, you know, bring in a
lawyer and do a living trust, Ishould have been more mature

(43:38):
about it and taken more of anactive role, and sometimes as
caregivers, we're sooverwhelmed, and especially if
you're the emotional caregiver,you're the one that's, you know,
trying to make everything prettyand nice and make quality of
life as best as it can be. Andyou're the hands on person.
You're exhausted, you'reexhausted, but it is. You're so

(44:00):
right, like it's so important toget involved in those things
that maybe aren't your you knowyour comfort zone, as it were,
and and you know because it'llmake your life and your loved
one's life so much better and somuch easier. If you do and
don't, don't let anyone elsetake over, even if it's your own

(44:23):
sibling or your own, you know,spouse or whatever it is like in
you think that you can trustthem. I not to be. I don't know
this sounds terrible, but youhave but sometimes you just have
to be. You know, the temptationcan change people. And I don't
know it's just, it's better tojust have a clean and clear up

(44:46):
front, right 100%

I mean, that's I always say, you know, to folks
on the other side, I always tellthem, you know, if you could
just. Just tell the family whenthey complain about, hey, why is
this happening? If you couldjust admit that something's not
going well and just apologize,they probably wouldn't be

(45:12):
calling me. But I understand whythey don't do that. They circle
the wagons, right? Becausethey're afraid of getting sued.
They're afraid of thelitigation. But the reality of
it is, is this caregiving isstill there's a human element to
it. And if you treat people likehuman beings, they're going to
treat you like a human being,too. And so I would probably be

(45:34):
out of work if, if people wouldstart, you know, admitting
things aren't going well, but Iunderstand why they do it, and
that's just, that's the world welive in now. I guess

it is okay.
Here's a question that peopleask all the time, but what when
facilities are fined, if they doget fined, and, you know, they
often use that as a as anexcuse, like, why they're, you
know, can't spend money incertain areas. They're worried
about fines, or, you know, ifthey do get fined, which is not
the norm, where does that moneygo? And do the residents ever

(46:09):
benefit?

Well, when it comes to nursing homes, the
biggest fine that the law allowsthem to to levy is $100,000 and
but that has to be an egregiouscase where there's
investigations that go on andthere's a finding that, you know
this, whatever they did wrongdirectly led to somebody's

(46:36):
death. That money goes back tothe Department of Public Health.
I don't know what they do withit, but that goes there. Most of
the time when there's fines, thenursing homes have the ability
to fight those fines and fightthe findings of the Department
of Public Health. There'sadministrative court that they

(46:56):
can go through. A lot of them dothat when they do get fines. But
you know, I have some strongfeelings about the oversight by
the state of California and thefederal government.

It's clear just the state of California,
just the state

of California too. You know, they don't do a
good enough job to protect thepublic is as nice as I can say
it. The public can't rely onthem to hold these facilities

(47:36):
accountable. They just can't. Alot of it has to do with with
with the evaluators, theirjurisdictions, so to speak,
they're not police officers.
They're not, you know, theydon't have any enforcement
authority, so theirinvestigations are really
limited. And so I think, as wewere talking about, I like to

(47:57):
believe that everybody's goingto do the right thing, and
everybody's coming from the sameplace in terms of that context.
But the reality of it is, isthat people aren't and so the
facilities know how to work thesystem, the oversight agencies
seem to not have a whole lot ofinterest in doing anything other

(48:22):
than what's minimally requiredof them. And the point I just
want to make is that take thosedeficiencies and those citations
for what they're worth if theydo issue something like that.
You know, where there's smoke,there's fire of the iceberg, and

(48:42):
just don't rely on thegovernment to do anything. You
know, that's one nice thingabout the civil courts, and one
thing that I do believe is thatthe court systems can hold
people accountable within areasonable timeframe, where,

(49:04):
when you're relying on thegovernment to do stuff, if they
get around to it, they'll get toit when they get to it, and the
sense of accountability thatthey're, you know, going to
administer on these places, it'sjust not the same. You can get
their attention through a civillawsuit, and I think that
effectuates Change way more thanthese governing agencies.

And see, as you're saying that I'm thinking
about the nursing home lobby,it's just, you know, like, how
it's manipulating the system toto remain the way it is. It's a
state status quo, which is, youknow, American Health Care
Association.

There's so much money involved in long term
care, I mean, billions and.
Millions of dollars, theinsurance, the Medicare, the
Medi Cal, Medicaid, there'sbillions of dollars in it. And
business people take note ofthat. And it's like the industry
has been manipulated by privateequity for so long. And I've

(50:17):
kind of come to the conclusionthat I don't think long term
care was ever intended to be amulti gazillion dollar business.
I think it was always intendedto be a ma and pa who are social
workers by you know, theyweren't in debt for the profit,
they'll make a living, but theywere really there to be hands on

(50:40):
in each individual home, andthey could be in charge of the
people that they hire and holdpeople accountable on a daily I
really think long term care wasalways intended to be that
model. I agree. I think that hasa huge that's, that's, that's

(51:00):
the big reason why the industryis in the situation that it's
in. It's that, any way you shakeit, there's somebody making
billions of dollars, millions ofdollars a year at the you know,
at the best, of compromisingcare for these folks. And it's
really a shame to see it turnthat way. And Medicare and the

(51:23):
government, they just keepthrowing money at them, not
holding them accountable. And soI don't, unfortunately, I don't
see these problems going awayanytime soon, but I do hope
through like your show and whatyou and don do just making
people aware. People can do alot to protect themselves from

(51:44):
this stuff. Up to you guys forfor what you do and getting the
message out there.

Well, back at you, Anthony, because you are
a good guy. I can see that likeI now know two really good
lawyers, our partner, Don Rickmock Castle, who I say he's a
badass with a heart of gold, andI think you're a bad I think
you're another badass with aheart of gold. So I really, we
really appreciate you, because,you know, I have not had luck. I

(52:15):
didn't, and I'm not litigious atall, but I didn't. I mean, just
trying to get, you know, my mom,what she deserved was so
difficult, and it shouldn't bethat difficult, and it's just
it's tough, and and lawyersunderstand that, and they know
how tough it is, and that's whyit's people like you that will,

(52:38):
you know, really throw them to,as they say, throw the starfish
back in the water, even thoughthere's so many you know, you're
still picking up the starfishesand throwing them back in the
water, because if you help one,you've helped one, which is
great. So we love that aboutyou, and really glad that you
that we were able to connect,and that you're able to educate

(53:00):
people a little bit more aboutwhat actually is the process.
And I think the best thing thatcame out of all of this, not to
mention, not withstanding thatyou gave us incredible
information, is that is to dosomething, is to do something
and hold the people that aredoing these, these egregious

(53:21):
acts to to be accountable insome way, at least do that
because our, our, like you said,our fed and our and our states
are not doing the best that theyshould be doing. So we have to
take it into our own hands. Andisn't that like it always is, we
have to take it into our ownhands, right? If you want

(53:42):
something done, you have to doit yourself. So let's do it as a
collective. Let's, let's, youknow we're, we're a guarantee we
are bigger than ACA, if we allget together and we're stronger
than them. So that's theAmerican Health Care
Association, aka the nursinghome lobby. So, you know, we

(54:04):
it's not, it's not undo, it'snot not doable. We can do this,
right?

Anthony, I think we can change being made
every day. It's slow, but it's,you know, just keep fighting.
That's all we can do.

You gotta keep by otherwise, what's the
alternative? I think that I lovethis, and I love everything that
has to do with love, and that'swhy what Don

Don Priess (54:29):
Well, that's because love is powerful, love is
contagious, and love conquersall. We thank everybody for
watching, listening to ourspecial two part, love conquers
all, and I have a feeling wethere's room for more. So
hopefully in the future, we canhave you back. And because this
is not a simple there's not asimple conversation.

Yes, send us questions. I mean, we Yeah, I
think there's more conversationsto be had. And, you know, take
the advice that Anthony gave.
Gave this in the past, thesepast two episodes, and I think
it's really, really powerful,and I know you're exhausted, but
call him. He said it in opendoor.

Don Priess (55:13):
Anytime, we'll have all we'll have all your
information on on the shownotes. And if, if everyone liked
what you saw and heard today,please share, like, subscribe
all those good things and

watch, wait, yeah, watch, No Country
for Old people and nursing homeexpose on Amazon Prime and on to
be and and on, hoopla and on. Ifyou're in other countries, you
can catch it on fire and on JenJing world, and you're you can't
miss it, so you must watch it,because it's your it's about

(55:48):
you. And yeah, I love you all,and we'll see you next time.
Take care. Bye, bye. You

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ANTHONY LANZONE, ESQ.: Elder Abuse, Arbitration & Your Rights - Part 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}ANTHONY LANZONE, ESQ.: Elder Abuse, Arbitration & Your Rights - Part 2