JEN TREJO: The Power of Love and Advocacy - A Mother's Fight for Better Long-Term Care

How can a system meant to care for our most vulnerable turn into our worst nightmare? Join us as we kick off a special series of Love Conquers Alz episodes, inspired by our soon-to-be-released documentary, "No Country for Old People." We’re honored to have Rick Mountcastle, former U.S. attorney and co-producer of our documentary, with us. Rick offers his eye-opening experiences prosecuting nursing homes for fraud and abuse.  Together, we hope to shed light on the urgent need for public awareness and collective action to combat the systemic neglect rampant in the long-term care industry. In this series, we will present personal narratives that serve as powerful calls to action, urging us to demand better care standards and advocate for systemic change.

In this episode, we feature the poignant account of Jen Trejo, who faced unimaginable hardship after her son Christopher (whose story was featured in the Netflix limited series "Painkiller") was prescribed OxyContin. From a mother's gut-wrenching moment of signing surgery papers for her son, to the neglect suffered within skilled nursing facilities, her story uncovers the severe failings of our profit-driven healthcare system. Jen shares the struggle of finding appropriate care for a loved one with a history of drug addiction and the frustrations of a system that prioritizes financial considerations over patient care. Jen also talks about the poor conditions in certain facilities and the lack of support for patients with more intensive care needs are also examined.

We also explore the transformative power of love and advocacy in these challenging times and how collective efforts have sparked progress, especially in addressing the opioid crisis and improving caregiving standards.

From the emotional toll of dealing with addiction and inadequate medical care, to the relentless pursuit of improvement despite resistance, this episode underscores the importance of empathy, persistence, and the human spirit in driving change. Tune in and join us in our mission to make a real difference.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
When the world has got you down, alzheimer's sucks.
It's an equal opportunitydisease that chips away at
everything we hold dear, and todate there's no cure.
So until there is, we continueto fight with the most powerful
tool in our arsenal Love.
This is Love Conquers Alls Areal and really positive podcast

(00:23):
that takes a deep dive intoeverything Alzheimer's the good,
the bad and everything inbetween.
And now here are your hosts,suzy Singer-Carter and me, don
Preece.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello everybody, I'm Suzy Singer-Carter.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
And I'm Don Preece, and this is Love Conquers Alls.
Hello, Susan.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hi Donald, how are you doing?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'm doing great Good.
How are you today?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'm good, I'm very good, I'm excited because today
we're going to do something alittle different, right?
And it's really the beginningof a special series of Love
Conquers All episodes which isinspired by our
soon-to-be-released documentary.
In case you haven't heard of it, it's called no Country for Old

(01:12):
People, have we said it enough?

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Have we mentioned it?
Have we ever mentioned itbefore?
Did we mention that?
I don't remember.
Maybe once.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, if not, it's a documentary, it's a film that
pulls the curtain back on thenursing home and long-term care
industry to reveal what isactually a cutthroat world of
private equity, real estateinvestment, trust-backed nursing
homes, and it also has a verypowerful lobby that makes it
their business to keepeverything status quo quo.

(01:47):
It's a profit over peoplebusiness model in which
understaffing is used togenerate enormous profits that
the owners tunnel throughundisclosed related party
transactions, aka moneylaundering, and, as a result, we
have neglect and pain andsuffering and also death, and
that's become, sadly, theindustry standard, and it's a

(02:08):
standard that took an egregioustoll on my mom's physical and
cognitive health and ultimatelycost her her life.
I didn't really know thisbefore this gentleman that I'm
about to introduce.
For this gentleman that I'mabout to introduce, that we were
in a full-blown systemic crisisand that it's one that's been

(02:29):
causing insufferableconsequences for decades, and
not just for the elderly, forthe vulnerable, for our
disadvantaged, shall we say.
But until I had this guest,which is Rick Montcastle on Love
Conquers Alls, two years ago in2022, when I was in the throes

(02:52):
of trying to advocate for my mom, it wasn't until Rick came on
and he told me.
This wasn't just my story.
This was actually a systemiccrisis.
Rick Montcastle just in case youhaven't heard of him is a
former United States attorney,an award-winning federal and
state prosecutor.
He prosecuted Purdue Pharma forfraudulently marketing

(03:15):
OxyContin and he was portrayedby the actor Peter Sarsgaard in
the Emmy award-winning Huluseries miniseries Dope Sick.
In the Emmy Award-winning Huluseries miniseries Dope Sick, he
also investigated and prosecutednursing homes for fraud and
abuse for many, many years andnever saw any significant change
.
Rick is also the co-producer ofno Country for Old People and

(03:37):
we're so glad that he is, and heis also today's special guest
host.
So welcome, Rick.
I'd like to welcome you on as'sspecial guest host.
So welcome, Rick.
I'd like to welcome you on asour special guest host today.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Susan and.
Don, yeah, I'm doing great.
Great to see you guys and thankyou for having me on.
This is a very specialinterview and I'm excited about
it.
I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Right about it, I'm looking forward to it.
Right, I mean, we today's guest.
I mean, I think, the reason,before we get into introducing
our guests, I just want to saythat the reason why we're having
these kind of out of a littlebit of outlier episodes is
because while we were doingthese documentary, we really
realized how important it is toeducate the public about what is

(04:25):
actually happening in ourcountry's long-term care
facilities, as well as ourskilled nursing facilities, and
we wanted to share some of thepowerful stories that we didn't
include in our documentary, fromreal people, real families, who
have tragically learned thehard way, like I did.
And we want you guys, theaudience, to know that this is

(04:47):
not just somebody else'sunfortunate story, because it
really is all of our stories.
We're all going to be ill atsome time, we're all going to
grow old, hopefully, and we'reall going to be vulnerable and
need help.
So it's really important thatwe share these stories and we

(05:08):
have a lot stacked against usthe prejudice, the ageism, the
ableism that plays a huge rolein neglect and abuse, and also
the fact that it doesn't reallymatter what our facilities are
rated.
The rating on the facilitiesare just marketing.
They don't reflect what'sactually happening within those

(05:29):
doors.
So whether they're a one-star,a two-star or a five-star, it
doesn't really matter, becausethey're all run from greed,
right.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
And that's the system .
That's the system, yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
So Don, would you do the honors?

Speaker 1 (05:49):
We have a very special guest today, and her
name is Jen Trejo.
Jen was blessed with threeamazing kids and three beautiful
grandkids, and on November 20,2019, jen lost her son,
christopher.
He was 31 years old.
Christopher lived in addictionfor years after being prescribed
OxyContin and every otheropioid you can think of when he

(06:10):
was a teenager, for his baseballinjuries.
After a few years, he washomeless, living on the streets.
In 2018, christopher got verysick.
Christopher needed heartsurgery and, ultimately, a
partial foot amputation.
After surgery, christopher wasadmitted into a skilled nursing
facility and that's when thereal nightmare began.

(06:31):
Christopher and Jen's story wasalso recently featured on their
limited series on NetflixPainkiller, and it was truly
emotional to see, and now wewant to hear much more about
this incredible andheartbreaking story.
So let's welcome Jen Trejo.
Welcome Jen.

Speaker 4 (06:48):
Hi Jen.
Hi.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Thank you for coming and sharing this story.
That is heartbreaking, but Iknow that it will, as you know,
that if we share our stories wecan help other people avoid the
kinds of situations that we raninto.
And you know, I want to throwthis to Rick, because Rick
really is the one that thatconnected you to us and, and

(07:17):
maybe Rick, you can just, youknow, sort of talk about how
that came into, how Jen cameinto your awareness and why we
think it's important her story.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, jen and I were just talking a little bit
beforehand and we kind of firstmet and I would describe it as a
dark crowded I guess it wassome kind of Irish pub type of
place where there was a dinnergoing on, and I think this was

(07:49):
about december of 2021, rightafter the release of dope, the
hulu miniseries, dope sick,right, and uh, I had gone up
there.
I was invited by Ed Bish, whowas an activist against Purdue

(08:10):
Pharma.
Ed lost his son to an OxyContinoverdose many years ago and so
he's been an activist for 20years trying to get justice for
the families of the victims ofPurdue Pharma and OxyContin
their fraudulent marketing ofOxyContin.
And Jen was one of the parentsthere and she'll talk about how

(08:33):
her son was a victim ofOxyContin as well.
She was one of the parents atthis meeting and we were just
kind of all sitting and talkingand that's how we kind of got
introduced to each other.
And then we the next day wemarched down to the department
of justice to protest in frontof the department and to demand
that the department of justiceprosecute the sackler family for

(08:57):
for all the harm they've donewith their company purdue pharma
in in the fraudulent marketingof OxyContin.
So that was our firstintroduction.
And then, more recently, jen andI were communicating.
Maybe it was on Facebook orsomething and she was.
I guess I'll let her tell it.

(09:18):
How did you reach out to me,jen?
That caused us to decide hey,let's have you on this.
Show me, jen.
That caused us to decide hey,let's have you on this show.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
Yeah, I currently COVID-brained.
I, you know, I feel like I feellike we've kind of corresponded
throughout the years through Edand you know, through different
groups and different times thatwe were going to go to the DOJ,
or you going or we you knowwho's going to speak.

(09:49):
But this time, like I'm just,I'm very honored that you want
to add this part of the story toyour you know already sad story
of what these places do to ourloved one and the care that they

(10:10):
receive.
So I'm just really kind ofgrateful that that you're
acknowledging that this alsohappens to younger people or to
people who can't fight forthemselves.
And even as loud as I was, Icouldn't fight hard enough for
him either let's just talkbriefly about christopher.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
And how did he he?
He had injuries that hesustained from sports, yes, and
from that went into he.
He got addicted to oxycontinand then other opioids and and,
and it spiraled out of control.
Opioids, and it spiraled out ofcontrol, correct?

Speaker 4 (10:47):
It did.
It spiraled out of controlafter there.
I mean, you know, he was, youknow, the protector of all and
the big guy and he was abeautiful human and he never let
anybody hurt anybody else.
And so in that, you know, he,you know, would get in fights
and he would get injured, andthat, you know, he, you know,
would get in fights and he wouldget injured, and I mean he's

(11:13):
got screws in his hand fromhitting a Marine in the head
because he hit his girlfriendand Christopher was like no, so,
yeah, it was just a long,horrible tale of a beautiful
baseball music, loving, gorgeoushuman um and watching what
opioids did to his life, justslowly, like I didn't see it,

(11:37):
you know, right away, um, I justhis behavior just started to
change and his hygiene startedto change, or just certain
things started to change, and Iwas like what, what?
Like what's happening with you,you know?
And and yeah, it just kind ofknow when that prescriptions

(12:07):
wear out and the pills get tooexpensive on the street,
obviously that turns into heroin, that turns into map, that
turns into whatever they can gettheir hands on at the time,
right, and you know, back inthose days in 2010, 10.

(12:32):
Um, it was his fault.
You know what I mean.
The addiction right was hisfault and it was his choice.
And why should we feel sorryfor him?
You know, this was his choiceand this is I learned tough love
.
That's that's how I learned todeal with this person that I
loved more than anything, andand yeah.
So he's a victim, so he's avictim from one system.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, so he's a victim from one system, which is
the pharmaceutical right, that,that, that sector right.
So he becomes that a victim ofthat and then a victim of the
health care system in general,because there's a stigma against
people that are drug addictsand I say that from experience

(13:13):
because my brother also was anOxyContin addicted person and he
lived in my home for five years.
So I helped him get clean andit wasn't easy and I don't think
it worked, to be honest withyou, but I so I have some
experience in that and I knowhow well that they can hide it
for for quite a long time.

Speaker 4 (13:33):
It was all right time yeah, yeah, yeah, and it wasn't
until it got cut out of controlthat, yeah, he, just because
it's gradual.
Yeah, it's great, it's, it's.
You don't.
It doesn't happen one day.
And all of a sudden, oh my god,you're addicted.
And look at all this behavior.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Because it's gradual.
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's.
You don't, it doesn't happenone day and all of a sudden, oh
my God, you're addicted.
Look at all this behavior.
It's so gradual, you don't evenWell, they have.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
They have to hit rock bottom.
They have to hit rock bottom.
That's when we found out I wishthat so many of the times it

(14:12):
and right now understood was his.
The ultimate was his bottomright.
Yeah, so I want to jump to whenhe entered into skilled nursing
because he needed a skillednursing right and and so after
you got the call from hisgirlfriend's home and they were
telling you that he's going todie, and you do, get him into a

(14:32):
hospital for surgery.
So let's start from there.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
So they get him, we get him finally to the hospital,
him finally to the hospital.
And um, um, thank god, I had agirlfriend who was one of the er
nurses at that particularhospital and she was there
because they, he wanted to leave, and um, and they didn't let
him leave.
And so, uh, fast forward, um,his mitral valve had blown and

(15:07):
he needed heart surgery, and thecardiothoracic surgeon at that
particular hospital refused todo it.
And so that's when I firststarted to learn a little bit.
What do you mean?
Why won't you do it?
Well, you know why.
Like, all of his valves wereleaking, but the mitral valve

(15:27):
had blown, and it had blown sometime ago because he had been
throwing strokes every time, hisheartbeat, and so his legs were
probably that size, with redbumps everywhere, and his
heartbeat was pretty muchnon-existent.
So the next day, they, they,they tell me that a surgeon has

(15:53):
agreed to do the surgery.
There was a time in that periodwhere the suffering had gone on
so long and for so long, and Ithink it's a really important
thing for me to say is that whenthey brought me the papers to
do the surgery, I almost didn'twant to do the surgery.

(16:15):
I almost just wanted to make itstop, to let him go, because it
was just.
I can't even explain what itwas to see this once beautiful
human in this body.

(16:37):
That was not in, and um, so I,I signed the paper.
My daughter told me that if Ime that I would never forgive
myself.
So I did, and we proceeded tosit in the waiting room and wait
for eight hours and it worked.
He was on life support, but itwas funny to go back a little

(17:04):
bit.
For about a year and a half hehad been limping on one of his
feet and his foot always hurt.
Every time I would find him.
You know, my foot hurts, myfoot hurts, my foot hurts.
He couldn't wear shoes.
It was horrible, and as theblood started flowing throughout
his body, his right footliterally turned black.

(17:28):
It had been dead all that time,and so the pain that he was in
I can't even imagine.
You know before and after thesurgery.
So let me see.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Can I ask you something?
When you said, you had troublesigning the paper and I
understand that too could youlook at him and say he wanted to
live Like?
Could you see that that well,so energy.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
I don't think he ever thought in, I don't think he
ever comprehended that he wasgoing to die.
I don't think that was athought that he had.
I just think that he hadaccepted this life that he was
living.
And it wasn't until we were allpraying, my pastor had come and
we were all holding our littlefamily around his bed before
they took him for surgery.
And he woke up during theprayer and just started crying I

(18:37):
don't want to die, am I dying?
Am I dying?
I don't want to die.
And so we were like no, no, no,you're going to be fine, no,
you're gonna be fine, you'regonna be fine.
And um, so that was like thefirst time that I think he kind
of realized.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
It, kind of set in a little bit what was actually
happening right and so, yeah,that's so important, jen,
because it it it gives you thedecision, it puts the decision
there.
So, like for me and my mom, whodidn't speak at this point and I
had to convince people that shewasn't ready to die yet,
because I would know, because wespoke without words in many

(19:16):
different ways, and so you know,I had to make that choice to
say you know, I said I'm notstupid, I wouldn't keep her, I
don't want her to suffer andlive if she didn't want to go.
I don't know, and I certainlydid when she did die.
But I think that that ishelpful to navigate.
So I'm saying I'm prefacingthis because when you get into

(19:39):
the skilled nursing, I thinkit's important that the audience
knows that your son did notwant to die nursing.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
I think it's important that the audience
knows that your son did not wantto die, no, no.
And after his surgery so afterhis surgery, before his
amputation, he had gotten veryrestless, he wanted to get up.
I mean, he's been on the streetfor years now and so he's not
used to being inside, he's notused to having rules, he's not

(20:05):
used to any of those thingsanymore, uh, and so I don't
think the hospital was reallyequipped to deal with that, and
so he was moved out of cicu waybefore he should have.

(20:28):
I to say that all of thathappened so that I could
reconnect with my son for thefew months that I had while he
was in the hospital and in theskilled nursing before he left,
and I think that that was for me, so that I could spend time
with him.

(20:51):
I don't know if that makes sense, um yeah, absolutely yeah but
um, so um, they moved him downto a floor that was not equipped
to deal with him.
They kept him so drugged, hehad his fentanyl patch, he had
his methadone, he had his Norco,he had his I mean, every

(21:13):
painkiller that you can imagine,which didn't really bother me
because, as I was watching hisfoot turn that color and also a
toe on the other foot, like Iliterally couldn't in my brain
imagine the pain that he wasfeeling.
But they would keep him sodrugged that they would bring
food in for him and I would, youknow, wake him up and try to

(21:33):
get him to eat.
And I have just the mostheartbreaking video of him, just
you know, slamming on the tablewith a mouthful of food, just
not even awake, just ow, help me, help me, help me.
On the table with a mouthful offood, just not even awake, just
ow, help me, help me, help me.
And then he would pass outagain.
And so, when they finally didthe surgery to remove the

(21:58):
partial foot and also the toeand the other foot, the surgeon
did a really good job andChristopher started his physical
therapy.
Well, yes, he still had thefentanyl patch and, yes, he was
still on all the drugs.
But you could see a little bitof him coming back, like a
little bit of a sense of humorwas coming back, and I never

(22:20):
left his side and so him and Iwere, you know, having
conversation and and, um, youknow he would start the physical
therapy and, uh, and he hadhope and I'd never seen that in
all of these years, like heliterally wanted and I have on

(22:43):
video.
He was like I have to, you know, get past this next step or
they're never going to leave mehere and I need to move on to
the next step.
I need to move on, you know, toget better and so, um, the nurse
manager on the floor we weretalking about, now it's time to

(23:06):
move into physical rehab.
Well, I didn't understand thata physical rehab meant a
convalescent room.
That didn't compute in my brainuntil she started giving me the
list of the places thatactually would accept him
because of his history.
And I mean, what do you mean,right?

(23:29):
Um, he is a, you know, a 30year old man who needs physical
therapy for an amputation forhis foot, to learn how to walk
again, to learn you, you know,and um, no.

(23:52):
So I fought and fought andfought and fought and fought
with these people and finallygot him in to a place that I
felt was going to be good forhim.
And so they transferred him tothis place.
And when they transferred himto this place, and they were
doing all the intake andeverything, they said, oh my God
, he needs blood, his bloodcount is so low, he needs blood,

(24:14):
he needs to be in the hospital.
And I'm like I've been tryingto tell everybody he needs to be
in the hospital.
What I didn't realize is that Ijust signed his death warrant
by doing that.
They put him back in thehospital, they gave him the
blood and now the place where wetook him wouldn't take him back
because he was not sick enoughanymore, if that even makes

(24:43):
sense.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Rick, I'm wondering if you can chime in Like does
that?
I mean, my first instinct is tosay that they wanted him out of
there.
So they said he needs to goback to the hospital.
And then now they're not goingto take him back because he's
too high.
He's too, you know, laborintensive.
His acuities are too high.
It's too much for them to takecare of.

(25:07):
Am I wrong, rick?

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, what I was wondering is whether they didn't
did his history of drugaddiction have anything to do
with their decision.
Some of those places just don'twant to deal with that.

Speaker 4 (25:24):
Some of those places just don't want to deal with
that.
They didn't really say.
The only thing that I can saywas the doctor there was very
stern and that he was not comingback.
And so then here I'm, out onthis journey, search through
everywhere that's in drivingdistance of where we could put

(25:44):
him, because apparently this ismy job, this isn't the
hospital's job, this is my job,and um, so that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
So there was no, there was nobody there, there
was no guidance.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
No, no, social workers.
There's people.

Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah, oh I we would have screaming matches in the
hallway, I.
We would have screaming matchesin the hallway, her and I.
He's an addict.
What do you want?
Nobody wants to take, nobodyhas, nobody's equipped to deal
with the attitudes, nobody'sequipped to deal with it.

(26:20):
Well, why not?
Why not?
Why isn't there a place?
He's not the first one.
He can't be the first personwho needs this kind of
assistance coming from thisbackground.
So where do they go?

Speaker 3 (26:39):
How was his rehab going to be paid for, and that
might've had rehab going to bepaid for and that might have had
.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
Oh for sure, he had IEHP, which was Inland Empire
Health, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
It's like one step above Medi-Cal.
Iehp is not the same asMedi-Cal, but they work together
, and this is in California.
Medi-cal is Medicaid for therest of the country and it is a
managed care plan which is,oddly enough, just for residents
in Riverside and San Bernardinocounties, which is here in

(27:16):
California.
We're both in California here,so it's interesting that it's
limited to those two counties.
Right, and I'm not quite surehow it differs from Medi-Cal or
Medicaid.
I'm not quite sure, but somehowI don't know.
Rick, it sounds like it's aninsurance company that has

(27:40):
figured out a way to work withMedi-Cal figured out a way to
work with Medi-Cal.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Some of the Medicaid programs have gone to hiring
basically separate insurancecompanies to basically
administer Medicaid.
So what they would do isthey'll get money from Medicaid
and get, of course, some sort ofa profit for managing the
Medicaid program.
So in essence, it is in fact aMedicaid program.
I mean, this is how the nursingor the skilled nursing facility

(28:09):
or the rehab facility wouldlook at it.
Is he's another Medicaidpatient, and then they would
then look and say well, guesswhat?
Medicare pays a lot more forolder citizens who need rehab

(28:29):
and it's going to be a financialdecision for them ultimately.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Really Totally.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
So I would suspect and of course I'm just
speculating, but I suspect thatthe reason they didn't want your
son in there was because therate they would be able to get
reimbursed for was lower,because it's a Medicaid type
program was lower than what theywould otherwise be able to get
from other patients withinsurance.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
They offloaded it on the fact that he's an addict and
whatnot.
That literally has nothing todo with it.
That doesn't even come intoplay really.
I mean, they're there torehabilitate him for something.
That's a structural situation,a mechanical situation which is
walking again right.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
He's not there for rehab, and so the place that
they put him was a place calledWaterman Garden and it was
horrific.
It was horrific.
So he gets there.
They don't have his medication.
None of his medication has beensent yet.

(29:41):
They're gonna get it tomorrowand I'm like, I'm sorry, what,
what?
His medications are gonna runout in like two hours.
The medication should have beensent with him.
No, so then, so they put him inthis room with three other
people.
Get a curtain.
Um, he was up against a window.

(30:04):
It was smaller than like acamping bed.
It was, um, very small.
His wheelchair would not fitinto the doors of the bathroom,
so he couldn't get up to use therestroom, and so he had to use
the bottles.
Save that for later.
And so, and then I'm like, okay, well, tomorrow morning we're

(30:28):
gonna take a shower.
We're gonna.
You know what I mean?
We're gonna get up and take ashower.
So I went and I opened theshower.
Shower is full of trash, can?
I don't think anybody's taken ashower in there ever.
And so then I walked down thehallway past the nurse's station
, and everybody just kind ofstared at me and I'm like, I'm

(30:52):
like looking at everybody, justlike you know, my kids here now
Like what do you what?
What's going to happen?
So I go to the physical therapyarea and it's basically a
storage area.
There is no physical therapyhere.
Um, they have the bicycle, theyhave a ball.
They have um nothing.

(31:12):
They have no physical therapy,um, they have no physical
therapist.
They had no doctor on staff.
He only came every once in awhile.
They had an rn that came in umtwice a day.
Um, getting a hold of thedoctor was just, I mean, it was
just from the, from the get-goit was.

(31:33):
It was a nightmare and as thedays went on, what would they?

Speaker 2 (31:41):
say to you?
What would they say to you whenyou asked him to.
If he could, where's the doctor?
Like what would?
What was their answer?

Speaker 4 (31:47):
oh, we'll put it.
We'll put in a call, we'll putin a call or do you and I would
go back.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
You want to take a shower?
Yeah, or he wants to take ashower.
What's their?

Speaker 4 (31:55):
answer he doesn't want to take a shower.
We asked him this morning andhe didn't want to take a shower.
Yeah, or he wants to take ashower.
What's their answer?
He doesn't want to take ashower.
We asked him this morning andhe didn't want to take a shower.
Well, he wants to take a showernow?
Oh, well, it's not his showertime.
We'll have to wait untiltomorrow.
Okay, and so he never took ashower that entire three months
that he was in this place.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
That's horrific.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
So it was just a bed, a very small bed, just a bed.
There's no rehab, there's no PT, there's nothing.
There's no showers, there'snothing, it's just lay there.

Speaker 4 (32:30):
And they would sell cigarettes to him at the nurses,
would sell cigarettes to him atthe nurse's station.
I'm like he just had heartsurgery did like what.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
I'm sorry, yeah did they allow smoking in the
facility?

Speaker 4 (32:46):
no, there was this little patio outside um that
everybody would just sit thereand smoke, and it wasn't until
and smoke, and it wasn't until Ithink it was the maybe fourth
week, maybe the third week thatwe actually saw the drug dealer
walk down the hall with hisbackpack and subsequently would

(33:12):
find a crack pipe inChristopher's drawer.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
So this is somebody who obviously is not working
there.
This is somebody who just camein Christopher's drawer.
So this is somebody whoobviously is not working there.
This is somebody who just camein off the streets.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
And you would have to sign in.
There was a gate.
You would have to sign in andsign out when you left.
So they knew and I told themand I went and met with the
director of the place and waslike this is unacceptable.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
What did they say?
Was that the administrator?
Yes, yes.
What was the response?

Speaker 4 (33:42):
and the director, and they, they would say, um, he's
very difficult, he doesn't wantanybody to clean his area.
They would blame everything onhim, everybody, everything just
went back on him.
Well, he, he's here forphysical therapy, he's here for
you know, I had to get him hiswheelchair.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
What happened when you told the administration
about the drug dealer?
What was their answer?

Speaker 4 (34:11):
Oh, that's not true.
He's a family member of apatient down the hall Right.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
And the nurse, nurses selling cigarettes.
Did you mention that oh?

Speaker 4 (34:21):
that's we're allowed to do.
That they would have.
They would have packs ofcigarettes, the cheap cigarettes
.
They would literally sell themby the pack and by the cigarette
.
It's like a prison except not asnice so the day christopher
left the actual hospital, hisamputation scar staples were

(34:42):
still in, but it lookedbeautiful, it was going to heal,
beautiful, and we were just sohopeful, you know.
So they took him into this room, this nurse whose badge was
turned around, because I askedher to turn it around and she
wouldn't, so I could take apicture of it.

(35:02):
She wouldn't.
They put on a waterproofbandage over the top of his foot
and I was like no, that doesn'tgo there, that doesn't take
that off, that doesn't go there.
And she was like no, it's, it'swhat needs to go here for
transportation.
For all that, I'm all no.
And I threw a fit and theywouldn't take it off and I wish
that I would have ripped it off.

(35:23):
I so wish that I would haveripped it off so he gets
transferred.
And I'm like can we take thisbandage off now?
No, that doesn't have to comeoff for 48 hours.
I'm all, oh my God, take thisbandage off his foot.
It's waterproof, it's likeputting a band-aid on a wound
and you know what that lookslike.

(35:44):
When you take the bandage off,it's going to be all mushy and
nasty.
And that was the beginning ofthat.
They took that bandage off?
Did he get sepsis?
It was the most disgustingthing.
He they actually had to go inand dig out the entire middle
part of his foot because theinfection was so bad.

(36:08):
And then they put him on a woundvac which was never cared for
properly.
They'd pack it all in there,and and then I would come in and
I would be like, I'm ready, foryou know, because I wanted to
be there for every change.
I was there for every change,and it got to the point where

(36:29):
they were like, oh, he refusedit today, well, let's do it now.
Well, the nurse is gone, right,and I'd be like, oh my God, and
so it just prolonged, and didyou?

Speaker 2 (36:42):
go to the.
Did you go to the umadministration about that, about
the wound care?
I went to the administration,about everything.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
Yeah, I was in there at least three times a week
complaining about this and thatand the other thing, and at some
point they were just like whatdo you?
You know, do you want him moved?
And I'm all.
No, I want him cared for.
Nowhere else will take him.
So let's let's get this healedso that we can move on to the

(37:11):
next step, Because we haven'teven started drug rehab yet.
I have to get through thisphysical rehab and I need his
wound to heal.
But his wound isn't going toheal because nobody's taking
care of it properly, and so itjust continued to get more and
more and more infected until heneeded his next surgery.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
And what's his state of mind at this point?
Where?
Where is he at?
You know what?
What is?
Is he just kind of resigned tothe fact that this is the way?
I mean, where was he at at thispoint mentally?

Speaker 4 (37:41):
Oh, mentally, he checked out.
He had already checked out.
He had already disappearedthree or four times.
He would leave in the middle ofthe day and nobody would know
where he was.
Somebody would find him downthe street.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
In his wheelchair.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
They must have kept him very drugged right in the
beginning they did and I thinkthroughout they did.
I think that throughout I meanhe got his a new fentanyl patch
every 48 hours.
He got his methadone right,however many times a day.
He got norco, he got um, Iforget what other medications he
was on so he was for the mostpart.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
They kept him, you know, drug medicated, drugged so
that.
So it was easier to take careof him because he was young and
not take care of him.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
Around his bed was just garbage and urine bottles
that were full that I would goin and just be like I don't
understand, like I literallydon't understand.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
So there wasn't any oversight?
Clearly there's not muchoversight anyway, but to get
people to go and really take alook at what's going on there,
your chances are none to zero,right.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
No, nobody cared, Nobody cared.
It was just so frustrating tojust watch the incompetence of
it all and to not have anybodygive a shit what is happening
and to watch his butt just.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
I'm trying to paint the picture for people listening
, because you know, my mom wasin a five-star facility but she
also had a stage four wound thatwas being ignored, yeah, Okay,
and that it was like you know,well, this happens and she's
going to succumb to that wound.
Well, yeah, anybody would ifyou don't take care of it right.
Yeah, so the difference betweenmy mom's five-star facility to

(39:42):
this I'm imagining it's a two atthe most, a two to three star
facility, or one right and andwhat kind of and and you know,
and there's, there's all kindsof stigma, like we talked in the
opening, which is ageism andableism, and then there's other
kinds of prejudice that goesalong with it.
So were there other familymembers when you were there?

(40:05):
Did you see other familymembers there?
I mean, were they just used tonot having people advocating and
they had been getting away withall this?
For you know, that was justTruth.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
I never heard anybody else um truth, I never heard
anybody else complain.
I never heard anyone elsecomplain.
And um, the people that wouldcome visit um would just come
and sit out on the patio andsmoke with these people, and um,
I never really saw anybodycheck out.
I saw them die.
Uh, two of christopher'sroommates died while he was

(40:36):
there, which was also very hardfor his, you know, mental health
.
Um, god, yeah, and um you knowwhat, jen?

Speaker 2 (40:47):
just to I, just to validate what you're saying.
Like, throughout doing thisdocumentary, I got so many
people talking like, reachingout to me, and in fact, even my
daughter's friend, most recently, her father, who was a young
guy.
They had just gone into rehabhere in LA for a stroke and it

(41:08):
wasn't, you know, he was notgiven a life sentence, he was
going for a rehabilitation.
And she said can I talk to yourmom?
Because, like every time I goin there, my father is like less
a human every single time andno one's taking care of him yeah
he did die and he died and it'sand this happens a lot like I

(41:29):
heard it from other people likeskill seems like it.
It happens quite a bit inskilled nursing and yeah, you
know it's horrible.

Speaker 4 (41:39):
I mean, even the place where my grandmother was
was horrible.
You know the places where I'vebeen with family members or to
see you know, I have not been toone, except for the first one.
Christopher was at that.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
With that that you were like wow, this is nice how
long before christopher wasadmitted into skilled nursing to
when he passed away um over ayear.

Speaker 4 (42:09):
Over a year, we lost christopher back to the street
as soon as his foot healed hedid, it did heal.
He left in the middle of thenight before the rehab
conversation.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
So how did it heal?
How did that happen so?

Speaker 4 (42:27):
it was a wound care, the wound back, and it was just
an everyday fight to make surethat you know the dressings
taken out, that it was packedcorrectly.
I was lucky if it got done.
You know, four times a week bysomebody who would just like lay

(42:48):
his foot on like just a plasticbag on dirty blankets and lay
his foot on a plastic bag andand I would just you know, you
just sit there and you'rewatching, you're like this isn't
even a sterile like field.
You can't like lay down a pador, and they would just I can't,
I can't even put into wordsreally, they didn't care, she

(43:11):
wasn't qualified, she didn't usesterile equipment, she didn't.
She didn't use sterileequipment, she didn't um, she
didn't remove all of the packingall of the time, and so it
would just continue to getinfected and it just it was.
I think it was a three and ahalf month period of time.
Yeah, three and a half monthperiod of time, while he was in

(43:36):
this place just trying to get awound healed that should have
healed in three weeks.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Right, had they just taken that damn band-aid out,
right um so three, so it finallydid heal, though, which is
amazing, but that's because youwere there every day and you
were having to exert so muchpressure, which is so hard,
because I know what that's likethey hold and also, you're the

(44:05):
enemy there and everyone'shating you and yeah you know,
you're just a the thorn in theirside hated me yeah, so he was
discharged.
No, no he escaped.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
Okay, they called me in the middle of the night and
told me he was missing and thatthey had reported him as a
missing person.
Okay, you watched the hopedrain out of him.
You watched it, I watched it.
We had hope for a minute, forjust like a window we had and we
hadn't seen in years, and Idon't think he'd actually felt

(44:46):
it in years.
You know, his brother andsister were coming to visit him.
You know, his niece and nephewswere coming to visit and, like,
we were there all the time andit was, you know, time spent
with the family that we hadn'thad in like six years.
You know, and um, and I, I mean, I just I have to believe that,

(45:07):
even though it was an absolutenightmare, it was just for me
now to have that time with him,and I just think that it's
absolutely outrageous thatthat's where people are put.
I think, um, like you said, afive-star place.

(45:28):
Your mom still had that bedsore, right, um, I think that's.
What do they have to do?
You know what I mean.
What do these?
What do they have to do?
You know what I mean.
What do these LVNs have to?

Speaker 2 (45:41):
do.
That's their job.
They're only in charge of life.
It's their job.
It's why they're there.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
They only each have six patients to take care of,
like clean them, it's just.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
That's part of the problem, that they are
understaffed, and so I guess atsome point they have to make a
decision themselves.
Am I going to try to run myselfragged trying to take care of
more people than I can possiblytake care of, or do I throw in
the towel and just collect mypaycheck?
And you know, there's that kindof kind of dynamic at work

(46:17):
because of the business modelthat features understaffing as
its primary linchpin.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
So when you said you found that he had hope, right,
you said the first time, likeyou all felt this glimmer of
hope, right?

Speaker 4 (46:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
And then you saw it go away at some point.
At what point did you see it goaway at some point?
At what point did you see it goaway?

Speaker 4 (46:41):
I think the first time that we saw it go away was
when they took the bandage off.
Okay, and I think that waswhere my fight started, like
really my fight started, andwhere he was just like, oh, you
know, I can't believe that thishappened.

(47:02):
Why does it look like that?
And it was just staples withwhite skin coming up in between
each one, and it never gotbetter, it just got infected and
it surrounded like theinfection came out of.
Oh, oh, it's horrible.
I just can't imagine what hefelt.

(47:23):
I can't imagine how he felt.
Um, you know, I would getmillion of texts a day.
Mom, when are you coming?
Mom, can you bring me snacks?
Mom, can you bring me?
Mom, can you?
When are you coming?
When are you coming?
And I'm like I I'll be rightthere.
You know what I mean.
Like I would spend in thebeginning, well, in the hospital

(47:45):
.
I spent almost 24 7 within,yeah, um, and then, when he went
to to this place, I would bethere for, like you know, six
hours a day probably when heescaped, though when he got out,
jen was hit.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Do you think that?
That?
Where?
What?
Where do you think he was going?
Was it just fright flight?

Speaker 4 (48:12):
I think he was.
Well what time he was seen upwhere he used to be.
So I'm sure he was drug seeking.
I'm sure yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
So he wanted to self-medicate.

Speaker 4 (48:25):
Oh, for sure, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
So he was depressed and he wanted to get out, and he
didn't mention that to you.
He didn't, you didn't no.

Speaker 4 (48:33):
I started noticing his eyes change a little bit and
I started noticing a littlechange in him and a little
attitude.
And I was like oh God.
And he was outside one time andwe went through his nightstand
and found, you know, a crackpipe in there and you know what

(48:55):
do you do besides scream, youknow.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
And, at the same time time, you can understand it.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
You can understand, you know him trying to escape
mentally, but I'm, but at theend at the same, yeah, and all
of that, and and also at thesame time he is so drugged
already but it wasn't the samething, I guess I don't know.
You know what I mean?
I can never say that I could goinside his brain and say what
he was feeling or what he wasthinking.

(49:25):
I can't do that.
I've never.
Opioids make me sick, so it'snot something that you know what
I mean, which is why I neverreally understood it?

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, me either.
I mean, I think that it's soegregious that you know you take
somebody with a preexistingcondition.
We know that drug addiction isan illness.
It's not a choice, right, likealcoholism is not a choice.
So you take somebody into afacility that's a health care

(50:00):
facility and then you just treatthem one size fits all, right.
So you just start plowing themwith opioids that he's already
addicted to or consult with aspecialist or somebody that
would say here's what we do withpeople that are trying to.

(50:21):
You know, there must be abetter way.
I'm sure there is a better wayto manage his pain, as well as
his addiction, withoutcontributing to it.

Speaker 4 (50:36):
I don't think anybody really was concerned about
anything that has to do withthis addiction, I think that's,
you know, when you're in a placefor so long after you were only
supposed to be there for ashort period of time, and you're
there because of lack of care.
And you're there because oflack of care and you're there

(50:58):
because of lack of concern, lackof staff, I mean, whatever the
excuse was as to why hisinfection was allowed to get to
the point where he neededanother surgery to have more of
his foot removed.
And then now his foot's likewide open and we have it on, you

(51:19):
know, a wound back to close it,and now it's like this
nightmare and you know, his legsare all swollen again and and
you're just looking at him likeis he gonna die?
Like is he gonna?
And I would ask them, is hegonna die?
Like where does this road lead?
You know, and you know, finallyit just started closing, like

(51:41):
little by little by little, thebig hole that was like probably
that far down into his foot thatthey had removed.
Um, you know, and when it wasclosed enough, where he could,
you know, put on a sock over it?

(52:02):
You know, when it wasn'tswollen or he left, it was just
enough.
And sometimes I feel like youknow it's my fault.
I didn't do a good enough job.
I should have brought him home,I should have been able to take
care of him.
I should have, I should have, Ishould have, you know, and it's

(52:24):
the same thing with when, likehe was on the street, I should
have brought him home, but hewasn't Christopher anymore,
christopher anymore.
He was another person that Ilived by myself and I didn't.

(52:45):
I was afraid, I think I wasmore afraid to bring him home
and to be the one in charge and,and you know, you weren't
equipped to do that.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
That's not that's that's as a mother.
That doesn't mean that you'tequipped to do that.
That's not that's that's as amother.
That doesn't mean that you'reequipped to handle that kind of
situation, which requiresexperts, Right, and so you need
to give yourself grace aboutthat because that's not your job
.
You know that's not what youtrain to do, that it takes
somebody that really understandsaddiction and from a, from a

(53:19):
you know a medical standpointand it it.
That's not something you go inand talk somebody out of and and
stand vigil over them.
You have no control over thatzero.
It doesn't.
You can love them all day long.
It does.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
It's not going to change and our system doesn't,
doesn't support that, our systemdoesn't support you as a mother
and say here's some options,here's some viable options for
you to right.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
You have again.
You have to be wealthy again.
You have to be the one percentwho can go to.
You know what?
What's it called on?

Speaker 1 (53:52):
the beach.
You know the forty thousanddollar a month passages or
whatever it's not passages.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
Yeah yeah, it's not fair, it's not right, it none of
it's right, and this you know.
The situation has been going onfor so very long, whether it be
elder care or whether it be.
You know this.
Why aren't we better?
Why haven't we learned how tobe better?
Why is it all about the money?

(54:19):
Why does nobody care?
Why did you get into this fieldif you didn't give a shit about
the actual human being sittingin front of you?
That's hurting.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Why and that was my question all the time- it's the
money, because the money is whatdrives the decisions for these
people Not everybody to get intothe system, but that's what it
does.
And, as Rick states in ourdocumentary, guess what people?
It's our tax dollars that paidfor the care that your son.

(54:50):
When I say care, I put it withhuge air quotes around it was
given.
Our tax dollars are paying forthat air quotes around.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
it was given.
Our tax dollars are paying forthat Right.
And I just want to also add Iwant to add this as a caveat,
which we touch on in thedocumentary which is the fact
that there's a lot of reallygood providers and frontline
caregivers who can't do theirjob, that they want to do Like
they did go into this, thatfield, because they really cared
about people, they really wantto do it, and then they're there
because of the way that thebusiness is is structured, they

(55:23):
fail and they can't do the jobthey want to do.
So many of them leave the fieldand, like one of our doctors
said, the ones that stay becomepart of the culture and a
culture begins to form and thenthey adapt to that culture and
then it it, it normalizes it.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
they get, so they don't feel like they're do.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
That's right, that's right and they have to because
they either get moral injury, uh, every day, and go home and
can't, you know, want to killthemselves literally, or they
leave this, they leave thatbusiness, they leave that field
that they loved because theycan't work in it it's too
difficult, or they go numb andthey go numb and they stay and

(56:07):
go numb.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
So when you go to them and say wait, how?
How they just, they go numb.
They shut off in order toprotect themselves.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
I really thank you for talking about this.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
It's just you know we're not going to solve this
problem today.
I'm sorry I can't put it intowords better.
No, you're putting it intowords Because it's so hard to
process.
It's really hard to process asa human being.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
I get it.
When you're in it it's just,first of all, it's overwhelming
and you don't know your rightsand there's just so many levels
that are going on at one time.
It's just overwhelming.
I get it.
But you did what you did andyou did a stellar job.
You did a stealth, you did.
You did because I know how hardit is to advocate and it is

(56:49):
brutal.
It is nobody listen.
Nobody listens.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
They nobody, I just got, we'll look into it.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
We'll look into it.
We'll look into it.
We'll look into it.
Yes, yes, that's it.
I heard it all day long.
We'll look into it.
Okay, now it's been three days,did you look into it?
Still looking while someone'ssuffering?

Speaker 1 (57:11):
yeah, and you tried and you cared, and that's more.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
You were there, you did the best you could.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
That's step one, because so many people don't
have family members who try andcare and you're speaking out.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
You've been speaking out and you've been up against,
like I said in the beginning,two different crises and you got
hit from both ends.
You know, and here you arestanding, and here you are
talking about it and sharingthis.
Do you think this stuff is?

Speaker 4 (57:44):
going to get fixed?
Yes, you do.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
That's our goal Wouldn't it be wonderful.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Yeah, I think it's going to take us wonderful.
Yeah, I think it's going totake a movement.
I think we need to take it.
Like you know, anything that'ssuper important we have to as a,
as a collective demand it.
We can't, we can't go throughtraditional advocacy.
I know it helps a little bitand I know that that you know,
within the opioid advocacy, thatyou guys have been doing a lot,

(58:15):
a lot of work on it, but it'sstill there and it's still you
know yeah, I mean, it's just it.
Just, you know you have to makegigantic noise, you know, and
huge noise that that they justwant you to shut the hell up,
right, right.
So I think that's what we needto do, just like any other
movement that's been successfuland it's going to have to.

(58:38):
Like Rick said, it's not a oneand done.
It's going to be.
You know it's an ongoing fight,but we have, I mean, look at
how stupid they are with youknow our climate.
What's going on?
I mean, people are just selfishand stupid and and so we have
to shame people into doing theright thing, and it and you know
it takes people like you andlike me and rick, and people

(59:03):
that are angry and that that aresick of it and are are hurt by
it.
You and me, me, we're hurt byit, deeply hurt.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
And it may never be completely solved.
But change first of all.
Change is incremental.
It takes time, but any changeis better than no.
Change it's better than nochange, absolutely Any
improvement is better than noimprovement.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
I mean, honestly, can I just tell you something Like
today.
We had a watch party beforethis interview and one of the
people that participated when Ifirst started doing this
documentary two years ago, Isort of got into the caregiving

(59:49):
community through another film Idid, which was a narrative, not
a documentary, about my momwith Alzheimer's Very sweet,
lovely film, real and very wellreceived.
You know, it's not, it doesn'truffle anybody's feathers, it's
not.
You know, it's very, veryembraced.

(01:00:09):
And so, um, I remember inparticular this woman, um, who
had a uh, what is it?
A clubhouse thing that turnedthat they used to have me on all
the time as a guest fordementia care and you know, very
, very much respected me and,and after I started this

(01:00:29):
documentary, I literally theynobody would talk to me from
that community and I finally gotsomeone who said I'll tell you
why.
Because I said you know what'sgoing on.
Can I talk about my documentaryto your audience?
Well, no, you can't, and I'lltell you why.
Because you're angry and you'rewrong and you don't know what

(01:00:50):
you're talking about, and on,and on, and on and on, and so
you know, and that's whathappened.
So here's what I'm trying to sayis that there she was today on
this Zoom and I ended up in this.
We went off into these likeprivate rooms after to talk

(01:01:11):
about, like you know, and thencome back and discuss what's in
the future how do we see thefuture, looking for nursing
homes and there she was.
Of course, as you would have it, I end up with her and she is
so committed to helping uschange.
Now it was like a 180 turn andI thought, if I can change her,

(01:01:37):
yeah, so that just gives me hope.
And I know it's one person, butI'm saying that's the kind of
thing we're up against.
Is that people that go?
No, it's not that bad, you'rewrong.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
It's a one-off.
You're an angry daughter,you're angry.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
You're just an angry.
You're an angry daughter,you're angry you're just upset.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
You wish your mom didn't die.
Right, I had a.
I think my my most memorablewas a lady who sat with me the
entire time, christopher.
Christopher was on life support.
She was the nurse manager ofthe cic floor, um, and she would
come in and you know, talk tome and my nurse, the head.
The nurse literally stayed withme the entire time.

(01:02:19):
She never went home, she nevertook a day off ever she was with
me the whole time and her and Iand the surgeon she would like,
braid my hair and I would belaying on Christopher and we
would be talking.
And so when they moved himdownstairs and he started, you
know, waking up, I had the CICUnurse nurse manager take me into

(01:02:45):
the hallway and tell me youhave to stop, you have to stop
yelling at people.
You have to stop.
If he wants help, he's going toget help.
You can't get help for him.
And I'm like what?
And she was like no, he has towant the help, he has to ask for
the help.
You can't want it for him.
So you need to stop or you'renot going to be able to come in

(01:03:07):
here anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
That's ludicrous, it's insanityicrous insanity
it's insanity.

Speaker 4 (01:03:15):
I was like what?
And she was like no, yeah, soright.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
So you imagine somebody like that who doesn't
yeah, now is made a flip theother way.
So you imagine, like, how thisis.
This is why these stories areso important to get them out
there, so that people see theconsistency in the story, so
they don't just, you know, writeyou off, yeah, and and because
it's too hard for many people.

(01:03:43):
You know, like I have friendswho have gone through terrible
things with their parents butthey don't want to look at it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
It's too hard I do only understand to the level of
their own understanding, andthat's really sad because you
shouldn't have to have beenthrough it to be empathetic, to
understand it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah, but yeah.
So that's why I'm doing thismovie.
That's why, so that people cansee it from a human point of
view, to really humanize it.
So that's why I'm doing thismovie, that's why I think it's
great you can see it from ahuman point of view, to really
humanize it, so that you don't,they can't just go well, they're
old, well, they're going to dieanyway.
Well, he was a drug addict, hewas going to OD anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Who cares?

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Right, he's not worth anything.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
So I mean that's why these stories are so so, so
important.
So, thank you.
Unless we thank you, unless wemake the change, unless we make
the change, this is going to beall of our story.
We're all going to experiencethis.
Yeah, on, at some level, insome way and we don't change it
even if you don't care about itnow, it's us, it's it's your.
Take it you personally.
It's going to happen to youthat's what I know you.

Speaker 4 (01:04:51):
That's going to be our story someday, absolutely so
.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Thank you, jen.
We really appreciate you.
Thank you, jen.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
Thank you for reaching out and having me.
Rick, it was really good to seeyou.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Don and Susie it was really nice to meet you.
Ditto, ditto.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
I'm sure we'll see each other soon Jen.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
I look forward to seeing you again soon.
I wish you Washington againsoon.
Yeah, I love that you're still,that you're advocating and
you're a fierce woman and you'reout there.

Speaker 4 (01:05:23):
I have grandchildren now.
I have grandchildren now 17, 14and 11 and, oh my god you know
like this, me too 17, 14, and 11.
Wow, oh my God, you know likethis has to.
We have to fix something Right,or I'm afraid, like my grandson
last night you know, I have himon my, find my phone, find my,

(01:05:48):
and I'm like I call my daughter.
Where is Evan?
And she's like he's at hisfriend's house.
I'm all where he's all.
I don't what, why, and I go.
Do you know where he's at?
Do you know the people he'swith?
Do you know?
Do you know?
And she's all you need to calmdown, I'm all.
No, you need to know BecauseI'm just like psycho about it.

(01:06:09):
You know, and so, yeah, well,that's understandable, we have
to be out there and be loud, andwe have to scream and we have
to still, you know, educate,because children are growing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Educate, educate, educate, educate, educate yeah
yeah, for sure, and really showthe love, like you.
That's, that's important.
People will.
People will respond to that.
The love that you had for yourson and the love I had for my
mom, you know, yeah, so, um,carry on and um, well, I was
just gonna say well, there's areason for that and that's

(01:06:40):
because love is powerful, loveis contagious and love conquers
alls.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
And we definitely thank jen, our special co-host
today, rick mountcastle.
Um, if you want to know more,thank you, we will have all the
information about Jen and Rickand us in the show notes and
check back with us, becausewe're going to have some more
stories.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
We're going to continue to tell stories and if
you have a story, you can go toNoCountryForOldPeoplecom and
there's a place you can uploadyour story and if you think that
you'd like to share it on thepodcast, let us know and we'll
take a look at it Because, likeI said, we want to make change
and it's going to take a lot ofus.

(01:07:26):
So let's do this, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
Jen, let's do it All right, take care.
Thank you, let's do it.
Let's do it all right, takecare.
Thank you, take care.
Bye everyone.