June 6, 2025 • 52 mins
On this inaugural episode of our mental health series, "Are You Alright?," Lesley and Angie sit down with author & mental health advocate, Aly Vredenburgh to discuss the dangers of the growing Cancel Culture epidemic. Learn how the act of publicly vilifying a person can lead to depression, isolation, anxiety, and worse. Aly talks us through this difficult topic while offering real advice for those on both sides of this concerning cultural phenomenon.
To Purchase Aly's bookhttps://outoffocusbook.com/about-the-book/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Thank you all for joining us today.
We're bringing you an episode unlike any other we've recorded
so far. Our motivation to do an episode
entirely on mental health comes entirely from what we have
witnessed on social media over the past year.
If you are new to this fandom orhave been fortunate to have been
(00:22):
able to avoid Twitter, you mightnot be aware of a situation that
occurred in February 2024 that knocked Lovejoy's upward climb
off the tracks. While we feel it is not our
place to get involved in specifics, we are hyper aware of
the elephant in the room. In late February 2024, an
(00:44):
ex-girlfriend of Will's spoke out in a YouTube video with
intimate and painful details about their relationship.
While Will's name is not specifically mentioned, about a
week later he made a written statement expressing his view of
what transpired, his apologies for the person he was during
that time, and a desire to continue to improve as a person.
(01:09):
Unfortunately, the outcome of all of this was a deep divide
between those wishing to stand behind Will and Lovejoy and
those who took an opposing and at times vitriolic stance
against those who remained and against Will and the band
themselves. Mental health was at an all time
low and LED to Lovejoy cancelling upcoming
(01:31):
performances, including Coachella, and delaying the
release of a single. As Lovejoy's audience is
primarily made-up of young adults and teens, they were the
most affected by the backlash offormer fans and were subjected
to bullying, doxing, and constant harassment.
It has been a tough year and thankfully things are looking
(01:53):
up, but there are still so many love enjoyers coping with this
and are even afraid to admit they are fans openly today.
With professional guidance, we can help these young people
learn how to react, respond, recover, and develop healthy
ways to use social media while being true to themselves.
(02:19):
Love enjoyers. Please join us in welcoming Ali
Raidenberg to the show. Ali has a master's degree from
the University of San Diego and has dedicated her career to
advocating for young people. She's written a book titled Out
of Focus, which talks about Gen.Z's mental health crisis and has
(02:39):
a real passion for societal changes that improve mental
health in Gen. Z as a whole.
Ali, thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with us
today. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here.
In researching all of this, we've we're hoping to do a a
series of episodes on mental health.
(03:01):
And while we have you on today, we would like to address the
cancel culture as that seems to be a prevalent issue in the
fandom. I think Angie, you had something
about that. Yes, cancel culture, as I'm sure
everyone was aware, seems to be a real popular catch phrase as
(03:24):
of recently, and I know we've all heard it before, really know
what it means. What is the real definition of
cancel culture? Yeah, so cancel culture really
is about this social practice that basically publicly calls
out, boycotts or ostracizes a person.
And it's usually online and it's, it's this act of basically
(03:48):
acting like someone is suddenly no longer able to be a active
part of society, that they're nolonger relevant, that they're
not important, or that they're just basically just exiled.
And it's extremely, extremely concerning, especially now more
than ever because, well, the idea of it could be good to call
(04:13):
out big organizations such as our government and things like
that, where there are practices that need to be called out.
When it goes to individuals and it's being used to basically
exile people from a sense of belonging in society, it becomes
(04:34):
just incredibly dangerous to people, especially for their
mental health. And what I've noticed in the
fandom, it's not only is it bad for the person being ostracized
or shunned, those that advocate or come across as advocating or
supporting that person often then become either not
(04:56):
necessarily cancelled, but bullied, harassed, ostracize
themselves. So it's like a a ripple effect.
I often liken it to to, you know, those old movies where you
have the villagers with pitchforks flaming.
That's what it feels like. It feels like you have a virtual
group of people with flaming pitchforks that are coming
(05:18):
after, you know, one person or another for whatever reason.
And Ali, I can't imagine the toll that that must take on a
young mind of being bullied likethat.
Yeah, I mean, the harm is just incredible.
I mean, I think about just how it happens in social
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relationships, even friendships outside of being online.
I I personally experienced this.I was dating someone a couple
years ago who my friends didn't like because of his, the way he
dressed. And they decided they didn't
want to be my friend anymore because they didn't like the
(06:02):
person I was dating. And I was literally cancelled by
a group of friends I had known for years because they didn't
like my partner. Now looking back, I just think
about how harmful that was because not only did they see
nuance, they didn't really see me.
And they chose to basically follow a really weird, you know,
(06:28):
social guideline that was just wacky.
And it ended up harming me because that was a friend group
I really relied on socially and to lose them was really painful
for me. That's.
Awful because it feels not only they're anti that person, but
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they should if they love and respect you realize you see
something in this person that has value and be there for you
for that, you know, so that's that's terrible.
I'm sorry you went through that.Yeah, yeah, well, it's
incredibly common that the act of cancelling each other is
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incredibly common, and it's becoming a normal part of
society to basically cancel people when they no longer serve
you. There's this culture right now
where it's all over online. You hear people talking about
how if that person doesn't make you happy, if they don't bring
you joy, just cut them out of your life, goodbye, we're done.
(07:31):
We're done with them. Or, you know, you have a friend
who you've seen them for a few times and they've just been
really negative and they're justnot what you're used to and
suddenly bye, done. And that's a really prevailing
culture right now. And I'm honestly not even sure
where it started. I think it's just there's
(07:53):
there's a mental health crisis at large and people are trying
to figure out how to navigate it.
And I think this has come out ofit is people think 1 little
thing doesn't bring them joy. They need to just cut it out of
their lives because we're all very, very depressed and anxious
as it is, especially as a generation.
And so I think it's come out of that, but it's one of the
(08:15):
negative things that's happened.And it's one of these really
misguided and just very, very negative, awful things that has
come out of Gen. Z culture.
And I think it's a bit in millennial culture too.
But I think it's one of those things where we just decide, OK,
(08:35):
I'm done with that person because I didn't like this one
thing. And that's where it gets really
harmful, because then it shames and isolates people and it
doesn't give people a chance andit doesn't account for nuance.
Right. And yeah, the just that people
are disposable, and I've seen you use that word too.
Absolutely, there's it's just disposable culture and acting
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like people can just be disposedof.
And I mean, it's so common now, even with dating apps.
It's become so easy to meet people and talk to people, and
people are so accessible. But the problem with that is
that we're not having genuine friendships and relationships in
our real lives because we're so busy online and we're so busy
(09:19):
with this disposable culture. And so we're not forming
meaningful connections and relationships because of that.
I think it's interesting when you say disposable culture
because there are so many other things I feel like in life right
now that people consider disposable.
I mean, quite literally think about all of the waste that we
create, you know, most of us every day.
(09:41):
And what you said about being online I think is a great point
because if you're spending all of your time scrolling on your
phone, then you don't have time to really pay attention to
someone or cultivate a relationship.
And so you just, rather than tryand work on a friendship or
(10:04):
relationship, you just, you justcut the cord right away.
Yeah, and the problem with it isthat it creates a society in
which everyone feels a crap ton of shame every time something
comes out and they don't know what to say.
And then it creates silence. And then there's a bunch of
people who might feel one way about something and then not
(10:25):
speak up because they're too afraid of what the outcome might
be. And that's dangerous in itself
because even climate change, I was reading a study earlier
about climate change, about how 90% of people want to have
policies put in place to protectour environment.
But there's this idea between everyone who doesn't want to
(10:48):
speak up about it that, oh, no one cares about it.
But the truth is, is that when they actually collected the
data, they looked at like 6000 people.
And they found that across the board, society as a whole wants
to see change in the environment.
But because no one's speaking upabout it, and because people are
too afraid to speak up about it,nothing is happening and nothing
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is changing. And we see this in our
friendships and our relationships.
And even with Lovejoy, a lot of people aren't speaking up about
what they think because they're too afraid of the the hate and
the rage that's going to come down on them.
And it's just a dangerous culture.
And especially for all the people involved in that, his
friends and family, people that have cut him off too.
(11:31):
I'm sure they have opinions, butbecause of the way society rains
down on people, no one is speaking up.
It's so true. I mean, you could be a number
one streamer or singer or whatever one day and the next it
could be all gone and you could be, you know, put you up on a
pedestal one day and tear you down just as fast the next day.
(11:52):
And that's scary. And that's and they're real
people on the other side of thatscreen.
And that's what I think it's forgotten as well, like you
said. But when you mentioned the
dating app, Oh my gosh, like that got such a visual of the
whole swipe left, swipe right, like that could be your
soulmate. You just swiped by but because
you know, you don't like their glasses or there maybe looked a
(12:14):
little heavier than you'd look for normally.
Like that's sad that every that it's just swiping that scrolling
on the TikTok, just swiping by people swiping by like not
making real time for anyone. Absolutely.
And I think that's one of the biggest issues with all these
different things that are sprungup on us, whether it's about
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politics, whether it's in our friendships, we're not being
taught about nuance and we're not given the time or space to
really process things. And the problem with that is
that a lot of teens are expectedto have these answers to really
complex problems that, I mean, most philosophers with PhDs are
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arguing about and have no answers to.
So to expect a 14 year old to know or have an opinion on such
a complex issue and then expect them to side with one group or
another group, it's just it's mob mentality.
It's dangerous, it's polarizing.And we need to start teaching
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people about nuance and the ideathat it's OK to not have an
answer or an opinion about everything and instead see that
there can be nuanced, there can be both good and bad in a
situation. You can both love one thing
someone does and hate another thing another thing that they do
and understand that every personon this earth has both good and
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bad qualities. We're all nuanced human beings,
and so we have to start treatingeach other that way.
And another thing to just add inthere is that there's been these
declining levels of trust in oursociety over the last.
For sure you. Know, you know, half a century
since the 1950s, there's been levels of declining trust.
(14:02):
And even if you look at that, myparents generation between mine,
people have a lot more trust foreach other.
And the reason why that's so harmful is because then it
creates in groups and out groupsand people not willing to engage
with other groups that they're not familiar with.
And so that furthers this loneliness epidemic and this
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epidemic of children who don't feel like they have a safe
space. And I think too many they've
they found a space on Twitter, which is like, I don't know
about you. Would you say it's the most
toxic of all social media platforms?
It seems to be for us. But they found that to be a safe
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space or they made friends. And like it's true.
I've seen there are real friendships on there.
But then when the what do you call that?
The rug gets pulled out from thechair, gets pulled out from
under you. When this whole fandom it
became, it's just sort of like everybody scattered and then
they couldn't find their way anddidn't didn't know who to talk
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to. And who are you on my side or
that side or the other side? You know, it's just that safe
space that lived online vanishedfor them overnight.
That's a really good point. Yeah, I've noticed too that and
Ally, you brought up, like you brought up a really good point
about about people forcing teensto pick a side.
(15:35):
Either you're on one side or theother.
And I've seen a lot of examples where kids have just been in
certain situations, have been flat out like, well, I don't
know which side I'm on. I don't understand this, You
know, I'm, I'm just a teenager. There's a lot that I don't know
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about this. And it seems like there's always
the same group of peers, meaninglike the teenagers peers that
are really kind of harassing these other kids and pushing
them to be on one side or the other.
What do you think contributes tothe actions of these kids who
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are really seeking to force these kids to be on one side or
the other and just really force them to make a decision?
What? What is the root of of some of
that behavior? What do you think?
I mean, I can't give you a definitive answer about that
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because I feel like it's, it's pretty complex.
But what I will say is that our society loves binaries.
They love to group people into boy or girl, a man or woman.
They they'd love to have this. You're Democrat, you're
Republican. There is not a lot of nuance in
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our society. And it's a problem because if
you look at most things, there'sa spectrum.
And I think that when we try to force people into groups, it's
really, really it's harmful and it's just very common.
And I think when someone goes out of their way to try to force
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someone to choose a side, maybe it's because of their own
discomfort with the idea of the other side.
And they want to know, is this person in my in Group or not?
And I think for a lot of people,we have this group mentality and
even within our political parties, we have these ideas of
are you perfectly a part of thisparty or are you not?
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And then we exile people who aren't perfectly a part of the
agenda. And across the board, this is a
problem with every different subject you can look at.
But when it comes to even music and exiling someone because of a
band, I think it just goes to show people are really, really
afraid of nuance. I feel like at least from what
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we've seen, or maybe it's just who happens to go on Twitter, a
lot of these kids don't have parental support and they escape
to places like Twitter A. Lot of kids, like you're saying,
do not have parental support. Absolutely.
It is a huge, terrifying problem.
Yeah, it's our generation grew up with the most divorces of any
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generation. And so a lot of us grew up in
broken homes, unfortunately. And at the same time, a lot of
us also grew up with helicopter parents and parents that over
parented like crazy, wanted to know every little thing we were
doing, every club, every meeting, every extracurricular.
(18:56):
But beyond that, there is also, I write about this in my book
Emotional Neglect. And I think it came from this.
I don't know if it came from fear or what it was, but a lot
of parents emotionally neglectedus.
And what I mean by that is that a lot of times we were
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invalidated for what we felt. And I can even speak to my my
own experience. I have one of the best moms in
the world, but growing up, she didn't really understand what
was happening to me online. I would do all kinds of crazy
stuff online because it was justcoming out and I was discovering
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it as it was coming out. And so I didn't know the harm of
it. And I was a curious young, young
child. But I mean, I was going on like
Yahoo Answers or Omegle or Club Penguin.
And in all of those spaces, there were all kinds of things
that I was encountering, including bullying.
And I would bring it to my mom and say, you know, this person
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was really mean to me online. I'm so upset.
And my mom would go, oh, that didn't happen.
I don't believe you. And that's, I believe, very
common, at least for people and the older part of Gen.
Z and the younger millennials, because they had no clue.
They had no clue what we were experiencing or what was going
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on. And I think because of that, a
lot of us experienced a lot of harmful, traumatic things online
and we had no one to talk to or go to for these issues.
Yeah, it was the Wild West, especially then, you know, it
was just free, wide open. You don't know who you're
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talking to. But like, like you said, what
they encounter even, you know, that's why I think Twitter with
like, I don't know, Ange, I was floored.
Twitter was not a place I used. I use Facebook, you know, like
other people might. Stage fame.
And Instagram, but when Twitter was the place for this fandom
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and I like I don't know why, I just like glommed onto it and
was just. Like I have to do something
taught myself Twitter. It's, it's really scary.
And I the only reason I ever went on Twitter is because I
realized if I wanted Lovejoy information, like the details,
the up to date stuff, that's where I had to go.
And it was definitely an eye opener.
(21:27):
I was like, this is crazy. And you're right.
Some of the things these, oh, these kids that they that they
post about, yeah. It's so sad.
Needless to say, after things went sideways, I hate that
expression, but I'm using it with this fandom and with this
(21:47):
band for a while. They ditched Twitter, they're
out of here. So I'm glad they left the
toxicity of Twitter. But now these kids are still
here and I keep asking them, please, please come to
Instagram, at least come on, come with me.
But no, no, that's where they'restaying.
(22:09):
In 2007, that's when we started seeing increases of suicide
rates. And that was also a time when
the Kardashians launched and when we started experiencing the
housing crisis. And so when you think about, I
mean, Facebook was created as a hot or not scheme.
And then, of course, Zuckerberg figured out he can make a lot of
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money off of this whole social media thing.
But it started as a entrepreneurseeing a need and something he
can make money off of. But the need was already there.
People weren't connected. And he saw a way for people to
figure out who's hot or not. And he knew that there was a
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need out there for people to seewho was hot or not, which is so
silly. But it became and exploded into
one of the big biggest social media apps in the world.
The thing is, is that social media itself, Myspace,
Instagram, Snapchat, all of those things came out of a need
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which is loneliness. And I don't know if you guys
have heard of Mother Teresa. In 1950, she gave a speech about
how loneliness was one of the greatest problems in society.
That was 1950. And and so that just goes to
show that this has been an issuefor a long time.
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People have struggling with loneliness, disconnection,
isolation for a very long time. But now social media has made
money because it filled an unmetneed.
But the problem is, is it's a mirror in the sense that it's
basically portraying all the worst parts of culture because
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that's what makes money. That's what gets people's
attention. Yeah, I see At your point about
that, it's, it's just a, it's a mechanism.
It's not. It's not necessarily the the
'cause. If social media was all just
cooking videos, learning science, learning how to sew,
learning different things about the universe and education,
(24:18):
there would be no problem right now.
I really believe that. So I I really think that social
media itself, it was not the spark, but it is the fire.
Yeah, because what do you think about like everyone has a a
voice now every mean. See, I don't want to just label
(24:39):
people as mean people, but you know what I mean?
Like they're if you have a different opinion, you get
trounced on. So normally you wouldn't
encounter 10 people when you walk outside your door, like all
yelling at you. So it's a, right?
I feel like social media too, and correct me if I'm wrong, but
(24:59):
I feel like we have a real problem in the society right now
with the dehumanization. Like we don't think of people as
actual humans and I don't know if it's because you see so many
people on a screen. Are you able to speak to that at
all? Do you think that we have a
problem right now with not seeing each other as actual
(25:23):
breathing, living human beings, and do you think social media is
playing a role in that? I think dehumanization started
the minute we started industrializing and becoming a
capitalistic society, to be quite frank with you.
I think especially the minute westarted exploiting people for
money and creating monopolies and billionaires and and people
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who are basically power hungry and not actually helping the
people. I think we've lost humanity a
long time ago. I think now it's just everyone's
starting to see it. It's a really good point.
Or just that the whole idea of people can get better, you know,
in, in relation to this ban whenthe things that have come up and
(26:12):
talk of improving yourself or, and this doesn't just pertain to
the band, but in general, when people say they're seeking
therapy or seeking to be a better person, they should be
given the opportunity to prove themselves.
People don't seem to want to give that a chance.
(26:32):
Yeah, yeah, exactly what you're saying is so true.
I believe that there is this because cancel culture,
basically, it's this idea of taking away all humanity, all
empathy for that person. It's just instilling a culture
of fear instead of actually catalyzing nuance and dialogue
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and the idea that people can change and that people can learn
and grow. And so because people are
cancelled, it really just makes the issue worse when you think
about it, because if we give people the time and space to
apologize, to do right, to amendwhatever it was that they were
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perceived to be cancelled for, it holds space for people to
actually grow and do better. But when we cancel them, they're
going to go and they're going tohide and they're not going to
change. They're going to think society
sucks and they're going to cancel society too.
It's like a two way St. And then it's.
You can't help but think that itfeels like those that are cruel
(27:37):
online are just cruel 24/7. But the fact of the matter is,
you take away that megaphone, shut off that computer or the
phone, they could just be as sensitive and weak or
problematic themselves, or most likely are because we're all
human. And do you think it'll Do you
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see a way out? Do you think things will get
better or how can they? I know you can't answer the
world's problem. It's like saying what's the
meaning of life? But what do you see is what has
to happen for things to improve?Or are the next generations of
kids just going to have it worse?
And I can't even imagine what worse would.
Be I can definitely give some advice about how we cannot
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engage in cancel culture and what we can do instead for sure.
That would be great. I think what people need to do
is they need to just pause and take a breath before they post
anything or even have an opinion.
I think that the best thing to do is not to react and instead
reflect so you can ask yourself questions like do I have the
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full story? Is this post about
accountability or is it just youknow, someone trying to be
right? You can ask yourself, would
would I say this comment to someone that someone's face?
Would I say this to someone's face?
And then that pause can turn into, you know, an actual what
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do I actually feel about this instead of I need to be right or
wrong or pick a side. The other thing is to swap call
outs for call insurance. So instead of thinking, oh, this
person's cancelled, you could say, I saw this and it made me
uncomfortable. We need to talk about it and
think about it. So you can call in and invite
(29:27):
reflection and in that in turn can lead to better connection.
And it's it, it helps because ithelps people change by having an
uncomfortable conversation instead of just cancelling them.
The the other thing is to name behavior and not the person.
So instead of saying this personis horrible, they need to be
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exiled and forgotten forever. You can say that person's action
was the thing that caused the harm, not that the person is the
harmful person. And so that gives people this,
this space to actually, you know, grow and, and do better.
The, the other thing is that youcan give people the time and
space to apologize and let them try again.
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And instead of just saying bye, instead, you can let them
actually take responsibility andrepair the relationships.
The last thing I can say is thatwe need to basically, you know,
we need to teach and practice what real accountability looks
like. Because the idea that
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accountability is just exiling someone and treating them like
they're disposable, that's not real accountability.
It's not, it's just, it's exiling someone.
And so true accountability includes naming the harm,
listening to the people that areactually affected, taking the
steps to repair, and then doing better moving forward.
(30:52):
And so if we want a culture of accountability, we need to model
what accountability actually looks like, instead of just
punishing and exiling people because when they're exiled,
they can't actually do the work to do better.
That's very true. I feel like they're.
Always a lot of sense. They're always wanting more, but
(31:12):
it's never going to be enough. I feel like they'll never be
satisfied. If someone puts out a statement,
they're they're going to nitpickevery word and there's nothing
that could have been said differently or better
necessarily that would change their opinion.
It's just a mob mentality, like we said before.
(31:32):
And I really like the idea of taking a break, taking a moment.
I remember I had a old, I had a former boss of mine had the
scrolling on her screensaver. It was before you speak think
and it's had like it was an acronym, you know, THINK.
Is it true? Is it helpful?
(31:54):
Is it inspiring? Is it necessary?
Is it kind? And I think if all these kids
thought the word think and thought about those words before
they wrote them, even in response to being harassed or
bullied, even if it's not, they're not the ones, you know,
doing that. Both sides, like you said, need
(32:14):
to. I like the idea of a call in and
let's come together and talk. I actually get like the warm and
fuzzies on the occasions. I don't know if Angie knows what
I'm talking about. On occasion when you see like a
thoughtful conversation about, yes, the situation and
everybody's sort of like, I appreciate what you're saying.
(32:35):
Oh, I can understand what you'rewhere you're coming from.
And yeah, that makes sense. You just just be good humans
right at the end of the day. And I like the idea what you
said about. Would you say it to the person's
face? Could you?
Would you? These are valuable tools.
Going back to talking about the person that is being cancelled
(32:58):
in particular, would you be ableto speak a little more on the
effects of being cancelled? Whether it's a public figure or,
you know, a 14 year old kid on their computer screen, What what
really happens to someone as, asthey're effectively cancelled
(33:19):
and go through this, this, you know, process of being basically
wiped from society or labeled a monster.
Yes, yes, being labeled a monster.
It's not good, I can tell you that.
I mean, it's, it leads to a lot of psychological effects like
shame and humiliation, anxiety and depression, isolation and
(33:42):
loneliness. There's a psychologist named
Naomi Torres Mackey, and she says that cancel culture leaves
no room for nuance or grace, which are essentially the things
that heal and provide accountability.
And it cuts people off rather than calling them in, like I
said. And so really the action of
(34:03):
cancelling someone, that person who is cancelled, it can
literally lead to people committing suicide.
It's really, really it's, it's the worst thing you can do to
someone really. I mean, they put people in
prison into isolation rooms, cutting them off from from
everything as punishment that and it's the worst thing you can
(34:26):
really do to someone and people who go through that, it can
literally lead them to having mental illness.
It's really, really horrible. And so for for young people who
are seeing this and for the people experiencing it on both
parties, it creates a culture ofshame and silence.
(34:47):
And it also it can lead to people feeling really, really
depressed and impossibly suicidal if they're the ones on
the receiving end. Yeah, I think grace is the
keyword for all of it. We need to have more of that.
Yes, we do need more of that. A lot more of that.
I know cancel culture, too, likeyou said, has also sort of
(35:10):
forced a lot of kids, and let's face it, a lot of adults too, to
remain quiet about things that they would normally speak up
about. How can teens stand up for their
interests or find the courage totalk about something that they
like without getting pulled intoa toxic argument?
(35:31):
Yeah, I. Think that the best thing to do
is to agree to disagree. Honestly, I think that's kind of
the best thing you can do is saywe're not going to see eye to
eye on everything, but I'd love to agree to disagree on this.
I respect you, I love you. This might just be one thing we
don't agree on. That's fair.
(35:52):
Yeah, that's great. And I just had a looking back,
looking at the questions, I got some from some of the listeners,
one of the ones I don't know if you have any advice for this.
How can a young person help their friend that is struggling
from afar or like a an online friend that's really having a
(36:13):
tough time. They feel a little helpless
because they're not near them and how how can they be there to
support them? I guess just listen or.
Yeah, I work with kids. I've worked with kids for the
last couple of years, and one kid was describing to me how
they were feeling really depressed at one point.
(36:36):
And the way that they felt, which a lot of people with
depression feel, is that no one cares.
And so one of the best things you can do for someone in your
life that maybe you want to helpis know, make them know that you
care about them, that they matter to you, that their life
(36:56):
is important to you. And it can be as simple as
messaging them and saying, hey, I just want you to know I care
about you so much and you're a really important person in my
life. Wow.
I think that's huge. Just no.
Just that touch. And it's so simple, it's.
A lot it is, but it's like you just saying that was like, of
(37:18):
course, yeah. And then like, you know, I
think, I think kids, I say this with my daughter, like I don't
know if it's COVID or what. Sometimes it's hard for them to
express like emotional things like that.
But it doesn't have to get to like deeper heavy or sappy.
(37:39):
It could just be as simple as like, I'm here.
And yeah, I think that is meaningful.
I've had kids reach out to me that have just sort of I always
show it to my daughter because I'm always like blown away like
that. They took the time to send me a
message just saying thank you for being a positive space, like
(37:59):
thank you for the time you take to do what you do and to be
there. And for a kid to come out and
say that like it, it means a lotto me.
So I can only imagine, you know,like friend to friend online,
like leaving the tweets and likegoing to the message and just
saying something sort of a reaching out the hand moment.
(38:20):
Absolutely. Yeah, like late at night, if
they have, you know, no one at home to talk to or and they see
that they're online, like just that that personal connection,
even if it's miles and miles away.
I'll do that with with one of myfriends, one of my best friends,
even if even if there's nothing particular wrong.
I mean, you know, we're busy. We don't always get to talk very
(38:41):
often. So, you know, you don't even
just sending a quick message like, hey, thinking about you,
hope you're having a good day, stuff like that.
I feel like it goes a really long way.
And Ellie, I don't know again ifif you'd be able to give any
advice on this, but what would be?
And this is another question from our listeners.
(39:03):
What's the best way to handle the emotional toll that the
hatred fandom or online takes onyou?
Yeah, I think the first thing you need to do is just
acknowledge what's happening. Just radically accept and
(39:24):
acknowledge that what's happening really hurts and you
can even kind of give an affirmation of like this is.
Horrible this is really. Painful.
I'm human, I'm human. And then I think I think it's so
important, especially if you're feeling really a lot of issues
(39:49):
with, you know, anxiety or depression, I think it's really,
really important to maybe go outand see a therapist.
I don't think we should handle these feelings alone.
I really don't, especially when they're so negative and toxic.
I think especially find even a meditative a meditation
(40:11):
practitioner going and seeing someone that can help you do
deep breathing, grounding and and really just.
Regulating your nervous system because experiencing that type
and that level of hate is just so harmful for your body and
your nervous system. It puts you in fight or flight
mode. It's a lot to handle.
(40:34):
And I mean, the other thing to say is that learning to not
internalize it. And so usually a really good
therapist can help you do that where it can help you realize,
OK, whoever's raining this hate down on me, that's their own
shit. That's their own stuff that's
going on. That's not about me.
(40:55):
But often times it's not, it's, it's easier said than done.
And so I that's where I recommend a therapist to help
with that. Because that's what they're
trying to do. They're trained to help you with
that. And and then the last thing
we'll say is give pain purpose and ask what is this teaching me
(41:19):
about what I want to be and evenwhat you know, Even when other
people don't see me, What is this teaching me about myself
and who I want to be? Right.
It's like what not to do? You don't want to be the the
person that makes someone feel like the person made you feel.
(41:42):
I know there will be some kids that will listen to this and
they will say either I've asked my parents if I can go to
therapy and they tell me, you know, no, I don't think you need
it or I think it's silly or whatnot.
Are there any resources out there for teenagers that might
(42:03):
have parents that aren't necessarily supportive?
Maybe just a place that they canreach out to and there's someone
to talk to in the event that they're not able to actually go
and see a therapist. Yeah, definitely.
It's complicated. I talk a lot about the mental
(42:23):
health care system, but I do want to provide some hope.
I don't want people to feel likeit's a lost cause.
I know there was a law passed recently.
Actually, I'm not sure if it wasnationally or just in
California, I'd have to check onthat.
But I know that the law passed basically makes it so that
anyone, any minor can go and access therapy if they have
(42:47):
insurance. I'm completely free and
anonymously and they're they don't need parental permission.
So I would say the best thing todo is is talk to a doctor or
someone at your school and I believe they should be able to
access it without any parental permission.
(43:08):
OK, you write up a good point toschool counselors.
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there a lot of schools
don't have a lot of counselors and they don't have enough
counselors. And we need more.
We desperately need more. There are I mean, there are
different resources online like the it's it gets better project
OK to talk the crisis emergency helpline.
(43:31):
I mean even ChatGPT. I mean, if you want to get funny
with it, I mean, literally AI has become such a great school.
It's not perfect. It probably is not the most
amazing thing ever, but it is free and it is accessible and it
does have a whole lot of knowledge, so even something as
(43:52):
simple as typing in your problems to ChatGPT and getting
some solutions could be huge fora lot of people.
I know ChatGPT is popular in in the community too so.
Yes, that's true. I know that some in my life, it
was very helpful. Affirmations I heard you
mentioned before can be so helpful.
(44:13):
I know someone that had like a little sign by the bathroom
mirror and in their car that said I am calm and I am strong.
And if you sort of keep repeating those things to
yourself or something similar, like, yeah, you had suggested I
am human. I forgot what the other part
(44:34):
was. But things like that, I really
do feel like they helped becauseyou sort of just it's almost
meditative, right? You you distinct those thoughts
in your mind. Repeat them.
And I think they're it does help.
Affirmations can be really helpful.
Meditation and breath work can be incredibly helpful.
Journaling is a great tool. Exercise and nutrition are
(44:59):
really really important. Proper sleep.
Teens need more sleep than adults.
They need like 9 hours. I actually, I won the science
fair as a teenager about my research on school start times.
And I think it contributed to later researchers actually
developing the the research to get schools to start later in a
(45:22):
lot of places. And so just getting enough sleep
can be huge. Getting off your phone and going
outside is absolutely huge. And then the other thing is that
I, I like to say the opposite ofdepression is connection.
And I think that a lot of us arenot connected with others in the
(45:45):
way that we should. And most people don't know that
developing a true close friendship can take on average
40 hours. So people might think, oh, why
is that person not my friend? Well, that the question to ask
is, did I spend 40 hours with that person?
Did I put in the effort to see that person for 40 hours?
(46:08):
Like it really does take time, it takes effort, but it's so
worth it. And we need to start putting
ourselves out there and having these meaningful conversations
and then building these meaningful connections.
Yeah, in person, right, I mean, not just online.
Yes, yes, in person. Yeah, the cooling generation
(46:28):
left a lot of kids being online a lot of the time.
And even still, like my daughterwatches TV shows and movies with
her friends in her room online, which I'm grateful for the fact
that they could do that anytime they want, which is cool.
But I encourage seeing each other in person as well.
(46:49):
Yes, and. I feel like there's a lot of
kids today that place importanceon how many friends they have.
And I've got this question, you know, or the comment every once
in a while and my answer is always do you want 100 OK
friends or a couple really closefriends to me, like the answer
(47:11):
is obvious. I would much rather have a small
number of really close friends than a huge number of people
that I called my friends but maybe aren't really exactly my
friends. And I feel like kids place too
much importance on the number ofpeople that they know, almost
(47:32):
like the number of followers, I guess on social media, right.
And I feel like they, I feel like there needs to be more
importance like you had just talked about placed on the
importance of a few really good close personal friendships.
(47:53):
And I I don't think that's happening enough today.
Absolutely. And you know, I think what
you're saying that a lot of people place this unrealistic
expectation on themselves that they need to have a million
friends. I think that is such a problem.
And The thing is, is that even arecent study came out that 73%
(48:15):
of young adults feel really alone and disconnected.
And another study found that about half of Gen.
Z feels like they have no close friends.
And so for someone to be mad about the fact or, you know,
depressed about the fact that they have no close friendships,
they're, they're not alone with that.
(48:37):
I mean, it's a lot, a lot of people who are feeling that way,
which breeds an opportunity for young people to start building
meaningful connections because they're all in the same boat.
They're all going through it together.
So this is such a good time for people to start saying, hey, I
need to go out there and I need to start building my friendships
(48:57):
and connections and I need to get my 40 hours in with these
people. I like that it gives them a goal
40 hours. That's an interesting statistic.
I never heard that before, but that's.
Yeah, man, I should be really good friends with my coworkers
then all. Right.
Meaningful hours. Meaningful hours.
You gotcha. OK, good point.
(49:22):
But I mean, you think about it, a lot of people who end up on
sports teams, they end up becoming good friends and it's
because they they have those hours.
It's. Very true.
That is true, yeah. You know, it's funny.
My my daughter is in karate and she's there probably 5-6 nights
a week and some of her very bestfriends are from karate and I I
(49:43):
guess I just thought about it, it's because they they spend the
time together there and apparently it must be quality
time so. Yeah, that's that's wonderful.
Ali, I thank you, but I, I wouldlike to give you the opportunity
to, to tell us more about your your book and where people could
find it. Yeah, my book is called Out of
(50:06):
Focus. Why Gen.
Z's mental health crisis is morecomplex than you can think, Than
You think. And you can find it on out of
focusbook.com. And you can also find me on
social media at Ali Frydenberg, which is so hard to spell, but
maybe you guys can drop, drop itin your little links.
But yeah, I, I, my book is just something that was honestly born
(50:32):
from grief. I lost my best friend and it was
the hardest thing I've ever beenthrough.
I personally struggled most my life with depression as well.
And it's something that I think should be spoken from someone
who's actually experienced it. And a lot of the people who are
talking about the subject are older researchers like Jonathan
(50:54):
Height or Scott Galloway and, and other people who have not
lived it. And so for me, I'm one of the
few young people who's actually put out a book about this
because I feel like now more than ever, we need to do
something about this crisis. I agree with you and it makes it
more relatable when you're of that age that your audience of
(51:17):
the audience that the book is meant for.
I'm sorry you had to go through an awful time and all that
heartache, but something great was born of it.
So kudos to you for that. And we'll definitely put the
link everywhere on our website and social media.
And it's meant a lot for us to have you on here today.
(51:39):
I appreciate it so much and I know the audience will as well.
I second that. Thank you so much.
It's been wonderful chatting with you well.
Thank you too, and I'm excited to hear it come out and thank
you for the work that you do. And I, I wanted to say to you
that you know, a lot of people are scared to speak up on such
important topics. And so I commend you both for
(52:01):
wanting to do that work and to speak up because more of us
really need to. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Well, thank you guys.
Bye all. Right.
Take care. Thank you.
Bye. Bye.
Bye.
Thank you all for joining us today.
We're bringing you an episode unlike any other we've recorded
so far. Our motivation to do an episode
entirely on mental health comes entirely from what we have
witnessed on social media over the past year.
If you are new to this fandom orhave been fortunate to have been
(00:22):
able to avoid Twitter, you mightnot be aware of a situation that
occurred in February 2024 that knocked Lovejoy's upward climb
off the tracks. While we feel it is not our
place to get involved in specifics, we are hyper aware of
the elephant in the room. In late February 2024, an
(00:44):
ex-girlfriend of Will's spoke out in a YouTube video with
intimate and painful details about their relationship.
While Will's name is not specifically mentioned, about a
week later he made a written statement expressing his view of
what transpired, his apologies for the person he was during
that time, and a desire to continue to improve as a person.
(01:09):
Unfortunately, the outcome of all of this was a deep divide
between those wishing to stand behind Will and Lovejoy and
those who took an opposing and at times vitriolic stance
against those who remained and against Will and the band
themselves. Mental health was at an all time
low and LED to Lovejoy cancelling upcoming
(01:31):
performances, including Coachella, and delaying the
release of a single. As Lovejoy's audience is
primarily made-up of young adults and teens, they were the
most affected by the backlash offormer fans and were subjected
to bullying, doxing, and constant harassment.
It has been a tough year and thankfully things are looking
(01:53):
up, but there are still so many love enjoyers coping with this
and are even afraid to admit they are fans openly today.
With professional guidance, we can help these young people
learn how to react, respond, recover, and develop healthy
ways to use social media while being true to themselves.
(02:19):
Love enjoyers. Please join us in welcoming Ali
Raidenberg to the show. Ali has a master's degree from
the University of San Diego and has dedicated her career to
advocating for young people. She's written a book titled Out
of Focus, which talks about Gen.Z's mental health crisis and has
(02:39):
a real passion for societal changes that improve mental
health in Gen. Z as a whole.
Ali, thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with us
today. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here.
In researching all of this, we've we're hoping to do a a
series of episodes on mental health.
(03:01):
And while we have you on today, we would like to address the
cancel culture as that seems to be a prevalent issue in the
fandom. I think Angie, you had something
about that. Yes, cancel culture, as I'm sure
everyone was aware, seems to be a real popular catch phrase as
(03:24):
of recently, and I know we've all heard it before, really know
what it means. What is the real definition of
cancel culture? Yeah, so cancel culture really
is about this social practice that basically publicly calls
out, boycotts or ostracizes a person.
And it's usually online and it's, it's this act of basically
(03:48):
acting like someone is suddenly no longer able to be a active
part of society, that they're nolonger relevant, that they're
not important, or that they're just basically just exiled.
And it's extremely, extremely concerning, especially now more
than ever because, well, the idea of it could be good to call
(04:13):
out big organizations such as our government and things like
that, where there are practices that need to be called out.
When it goes to individuals and it's being used to basically
exile people from a sense of belonging in society, it becomes
(04:34):
just incredibly dangerous to people, especially for their
mental health. And what I've noticed in the
fandom, it's not only is it bad for the person being ostracized
or shunned, those that advocate or come across as advocating or
supporting that person often then become either not
(04:56):
necessarily cancelled, but bullied, harassed, ostracize
themselves. So it's like a a ripple effect.
I often liken it to to, you know, those old movies where you
have the villagers with pitchforks flaming.
That's what it feels like. It feels like you have a virtual
group of people with flaming pitchforks that are coming
(05:18):
after, you know, one person or another for whatever reason.
And Ali, I can't imagine the toll that that must take on a
young mind of being bullied likethat.
Yeah, I mean, the harm is just incredible.
I mean, I think about just how it happens in social
(05:40):
relationships, even friendships outside of being online.
I I personally experienced this.I was dating someone a couple
years ago who my friends didn't like because of his, the way he
dressed. And they decided they didn't
want to be my friend anymore because they didn't like the
(06:02):
person I was dating. And I was literally cancelled by
a group of friends I had known for years because they didn't
like my partner. Now looking back, I just think
about how harmful that was because not only did they see
nuance, they didn't really see me.
And they chose to basically follow a really weird, you know,
(06:28):
social guideline that was just wacky.
And it ended up harming me because that was a friend group
I really relied on socially and to lose them was really painful
for me. That's.
Awful because it feels not only they're anti that person, but
(06:48):
they should if they love and respect you realize you see
something in this person that has value and be there for you
for that, you know, so that's that's terrible.
I'm sorry you went through that.Yeah, yeah, well, it's
incredibly common that the act of cancelling each other is
(07:09):
incredibly common, and it's becoming a normal part of
society to basically cancel people when they no longer serve
you. There's this culture right now
where it's all over online. You hear people talking about
how if that person doesn't make you happy, if they don't bring
you joy, just cut them out of your life, goodbye, we're done.
(07:31):
We're done with them. Or, you know, you have a friend
who you've seen them for a few times and they've just been
really negative and they're justnot what you're used to and
suddenly bye, done. And that's a really prevailing
culture right now. And I'm honestly not even sure
where it started. I think it's just there's
(07:53):
there's a mental health crisis at large and people are trying
to figure out how to navigate it.
And I think this has come out ofit is people think 1 little
thing doesn't bring them joy. They need to just cut it out of
their lives because we're all very, very depressed and anxious
as it is, especially as a generation.
And so I think it's come out of that, but it's one of the
(08:15):
negative things that's happened.And it's one of these really
misguided and just very, very negative, awful things that has
come out of Gen. Z culture.
And I think it's a bit in millennial culture too.
But I think it's one of those things where we just decide, OK,
(08:35):
I'm done with that person because I didn't like this one
thing. And that's where it gets really
harmful, because then it shames and isolates people and it
doesn't give people a chance andit doesn't account for nuance.
Right. And yeah, the just that people
are disposable, and I've seen you use that word too.
Absolutely, there's it's just disposable culture and acting
(08:57):
like people can just be disposedof.
And I mean, it's so common now, even with dating apps.
It's become so easy to meet people and talk to people, and
people are so accessible. But the problem with that is
that we're not having genuine friendships and relationships in
our real lives because we're so busy online and we're so busy
(09:19):
with this disposable culture. And so we're not forming
meaningful connections and relationships because of that.
I think it's interesting when you say disposable culture
because there are so many other things I feel like in life right
now that people consider disposable.
I mean, quite literally think about all of the waste that we
create, you know, most of us every day.
(09:41):
And what you said about being online I think is a great point
because if you're spending all of your time scrolling on your
phone, then you don't have time to really pay attention to
someone or cultivate a relationship.
And so you just, rather than tryand work on a friendship or
(10:04):
relationship, you just, you justcut the cord right away.
Yeah, and the problem with it isthat it creates a society in
which everyone feels a crap ton of shame every time something
comes out and they don't know what to say.
And then it creates silence. And then there's a bunch of
people who might feel one way about something and then not
(10:25):
speak up because they're too afraid of what the outcome might
be. And that's dangerous in itself
because even climate change, I was reading a study earlier
about climate change, about how 90% of people want to have
policies put in place to protectour environment.
But there's this idea between everyone who doesn't want to
(10:48):
speak up about it that, oh, no one cares about it.
But the truth is, is that when they actually collected the
data, they looked at like 6000 people.
And they found that across the board, society as a whole wants
to see change in the environment.
But because no one's speaking upabout it, and because people are
too afraid to speak up about it,nothing is happening and nothing
(11:09):
is changing. And we see this in our
friendships and our relationships.
And even with Lovejoy, a lot of people aren't speaking up about
what they think because they're too afraid of the the hate and
the rage that's going to come down on them.
And it's just a dangerous culture.
And especially for all the people involved in that, his
friends and family, people that have cut him off too.
(11:31):
I'm sure they have opinions, butbecause of the way society rains
down on people, no one is speaking up.
It's so true. I mean, you could be a number
one streamer or singer or whatever one day and the next it
could be all gone and you could be, you know, put you up on a
pedestal one day and tear you down just as fast the next day.
(11:52):
And that's scary. And that's and they're real
people on the other side of thatscreen.
And that's what I think it's forgotten as well, like you
said. But when you mentioned the
dating app, Oh my gosh, like that got such a visual of the
whole swipe left, swipe right, like that could be your
soulmate. You just swiped by but because
you know, you don't like their glasses or there maybe looked a
(12:14):
little heavier than you'd look for normally.
Like that's sad that every that it's just swiping that scrolling
on the TikTok, just swiping by people swiping by like not
making real time for anyone. Absolutely.
And I think that's one of the biggest issues with all these
different things that are sprungup on us, whether it's about
(12:37):
politics, whether it's in our friendships, we're not being
taught about nuance and we're not given the time or space to
really process things. And the problem with that is
that a lot of teens are expectedto have these answers to really
complex problems that, I mean, most philosophers with PhDs are
(12:58):
arguing about and have no answers to.
So to expect a 14 year old to know or have an opinion on such
a complex issue and then expect them to side with one group or
another group, it's just it's mob mentality.
It's dangerous, it's polarizing.And we need to start teaching
(13:18):
people about nuance and the ideathat it's OK to not have an
answer or an opinion about everything and instead see that
there can be nuanced, there can be both good and bad in a
situation. You can both love one thing
someone does and hate another thing another thing that they do
and understand that every personon this earth has both good and
(13:39):
bad qualities. We're all nuanced human beings,
and so we have to start treatingeach other that way.
And another thing to just add inthere is that there's been these
declining levels of trust in oursociety over the last.
For sure you. Know, you know, half a century
since the 1950s, there's been levels of declining trust.
(14:02):
And even if you look at that, myparents generation between mine,
people have a lot more trust foreach other.
And the reason why that's so harmful is because then it
creates in groups and out groupsand people not willing to engage
with other groups that they're not familiar with.
And so that furthers this loneliness epidemic and this
(14:26):
epidemic of children who don't feel like they have a safe
space. And I think too many they've
they found a space on Twitter, which is like, I don't know
about you. Would you say it's the most
toxic of all social media platforms?
It seems to be for us. But they found that to be a safe
(14:49):
space or they made friends. And like it's true.
I've seen there are real friendships on there.
But then when the what do you call that?
The rug gets pulled out from thechair, gets pulled out from
under you. When this whole fandom it
became, it's just sort of like everybody scattered and then
they couldn't find their way anddidn't didn't know who to talk
(15:11):
to. And who are you on my side or
that side or the other side? You know, it's just that safe
space that lived online vanishedfor them overnight.
That's a really good point. Yeah, I've noticed too that and
Ally, you brought up, like you brought up a really good point
about about people forcing teensto pick a side.
(15:35):
Either you're on one side or theother.
And I've seen a lot of examples where kids have just been in
certain situations, have been flat out like, well, I don't
know which side I'm on. I don't understand this, You
know, I'm, I'm just a teenager. There's a lot that I don't know
(15:56):
about this. And it seems like there's always
the same group of peers, meaninglike the teenagers peers that
are really kind of harassing these other kids and pushing
them to be on one side or the other.
What do you think contributes tothe actions of these kids who
(16:21):
are really seeking to force these kids to be on one side or
the other and just really force them to make a decision?
What? What is the root of of some of
that behavior? What do you think?
I mean, I can't give you a definitive answer about that
(16:42):
because I feel like it's, it's pretty complex.
But what I will say is that our society loves binaries.
They love to group people into boy or girl, a man or woman.
They they'd love to have this. You're Democrat, you're
Republican. There is not a lot of nuance in
(17:02):
our society. And it's a problem because if
you look at most things, there'sa spectrum.
And I think that when we try to force people into groups, it's
really, really it's harmful and it's just very common.
And I think when someone goes out of their way to try to force
(17:24):
someone to choose a side, maybe it's because of their own
discomfort with the idea of the other side.
And they want to know, is this person in my in Group or not?
And I think for a lot of people,we have this group mentality and
even within our political parties, we have these ideas of
are you perfectly a part of thisparty or are you not?
(17:48):
And then we exile people who aren't perfectly a part of the
agenda. And across the board, this is a
problem with every different subject you can look at.
But when it comes to even music and exiling someone because of a
band, I think it just goes to show people are really, really
afraid of nuance. I feel like at least from what
(18:11):
we've seen, or maybe it's just who happens to go on Twitter, a
lot of these kids don't have parental support and they escape
to places like Twitter A. Lot of kids, like you're saying,
do not have parental support. Absolutely.
It is a huge, terrifying problem.
Yeah, it's our generation grew up with the most divorces of any
(18:36):
generation. And so a lot of us grew up in
broken homes, unfortunately. And at the same time, a lot of
us also grew up with helicopter parents and parents that over
parented like crazy, wanted to know every little thing we were
doing, every club, every meeting, every extracurricular.
(18:56):
But beyond that, there is also, I write about this in my book
Emotional Neglect. And I think it came from this.
I don't know if it came from fear or what it was, but a lot
of parents emotionally neglectedus.
And what I mean by that is that a lot of times we were
(19:17):
invalidated for what we felt. And I can even speak to my my
own experience. I have one of the best moms in
the world, but growing up, she didn't really understand what
was happening to me online. I would do all kinds of crazy
stuff online because it was justcoming out and I was discovering
(19:37):
it as it was coming out. And so I didn't know the harm of
it. And I was a curious young, young
child. But I mean, I was going on like
Yahoo Answers or Omegle or Club Penguin.
And in all of those spaces, there were all kinds of things
that I was encountering, including bullying.
And I would bring it to my mom and say, you know, this person
(19:58):
was really mean to me online. I'm so upset.
And my mom would go, oh, that didn't happen.
I don't believe you. And that's, I believe, very
common, at least for people and the older part of Gen.
Z and the younger millennials, because they had no clue.
They had no clue what we were experiencing or what was going
(20:19):
on. And I think because of that, a
lot of us experienced a lot of harmful, traumatic things online
and we had no one to talk to or go to for these issues.
Yeah, it was the Wild West, especially then, you know, it
was just free, wide open. You don't know who you're
(20:40):
talking to. But like, like you said, what
they encounter even, you know, that's why I think Twitter with
like, I don't know, Ange, I was floored.
Twitter was not a place I used. I use Facebook, you know, like
other people might. Stage fame.
And Instagram, but when Twitter was the place for this fandom
(21:06):
and I like I don't know why, I just like glommed onto it and
was just. Like I have to do something
taught myself Twitter. It's, it's really scary.
And I the only reason I ever went on Twitter is because I
realized if I wanted Lovejoy information, like the details,
the up to date stuff, that's where I had to go.
And it was definitely an eye opener.
(21:27):
I was like, this is crazy. And you're right.
Some of the things these, oh, these kids that they that they
post about, yeah. It's so sad.
Needless to say, after things went sideways, I hate that
expression, but I'm using it with this fandom and with this
(21:47):
band for a while. They ditched Twitter, they're
out of here. So I'm glad they left the
toxicity of Twitter. But now these kids are still
here and I keep asking them, please, please come to
Instagram, at least come on, come with me.
But no, no, that's where they'restaying.
(22:09):
In 2007, that's when we started seeing increases of suicide
rates. And that was also a time when
the Kardashians launched and when we started experiencing the
housing crisis. And so when you think about, I
mean, Facebook was created as a hot or not scheme.
And then, of course, Zuckerberg figured out he can make a lot of
(22:31):
money off of this whole social media thing.
But it started as a entrepreneurseeing a need and something he
can make money off of. But the need was already there.
People weren't connected. And he saw a way for people to
figure out who's hot or not. And he knew that there was a
(22:52):
need out there for people to seewho was hot or not, which is so
silly. But it became and exploded into
one of the big biggest social media apps in the world.
The thing is, is that social media itself, Myspace,
Instagram, Snapchat, all of those things came out of a need
(23:13):
which is loneliness. And I don't know if you guys
have heard of Mother Teresa. In 1950, she gave a speech about
how loneliness was one of the greatest problems in society.
That was 1950. And and so that just goes to
show that this has been an issuefor a long time.
(23:33):
People have struggling with loneliness, disconnection,
isolation for a very long time. But now social media has made
money because it filled an unmetneed.
But the problem is, is it's a mirror in the sense that it's
basically portraying all the worst parts of culture because
(23:54):
that's what makes money. That's what gets people's
attention. Yeah, I see At your point about
that, it's, it's just a, it's a mechanism.
It's not. It's not necessarily the the
'cause. If social media was all just
cooking videos, learning science, learning how to sew,
learning different things about the universe and education,
(24:18):
there would be no problem right now.
I really believe that. So I I really think that social
media itself, it was not the spark, but it is the fire.
Yeah, because what do you think about like everyone has a a
voice now every mean. See, I don't want to just label
(24:39):
people as mean people, but you know what I mean?
Like they're if you have a different opinion, you get
trounced on. So normally you wouldn't
encounter 10 people when you walk outside your door, like all
yelling at you. So it's a, right?
I feel like social media too, and correct me if I'm wrong, but
(24:59):
I feel like we have a real problem in the society right now
with the dehumanization. Like we don't think of people as
actual humans and I don't know if it's because you see so many
people on a screen. Are you able to speak to that at
all? Do you think that we have a
problem right now with not seeing each other as actual
(25:23):
breathing, living human beings, and do you think social media is
playing a role in that? I think dehumanization started
the minute we started industrializing and becoming a
capitalistic society, to be quite frank with you.
I think especially the minute westarted exploiting people for
money and creating monopolies and billionaires and and people
(25:47):
who are basically power hungry and not actually helping the
people. I think we've lost humanity a
long time ago. I think now it's just everyone's
starting to see it. It's a really good point.
Or just that the whole idea of people can get better, you know,
in, in relation to this ban whenthe things that have come up and
(26:12):
talk of improving yourself or, and this doesn't just pertain to
the band, but in general, when people say they're seeking
therapy or seeking to be a better person, they should be
given the opportunity to prove themselves.
People don't seem to want to give that a chance.
(26:32):
Yeah, yeah, exactly what you're saying is so true.
I believe that there is this because cancel culture,
basically, it's this idea of taking away all humanity, all
empathy for that person. It's just instilling a culture
of fear instead of actually catalyzing nuance and dialogue
(26:55):
and the idea that people can change and that people can learn
and grow. And so because people are
cancelled, it really just makes the issue worse when you think
about it, because if we give people the time and space to
apologize, to do right, to amendwhatever it was that they were
(27:15):
perceived to be cancelled for, it holds space for people to
actually grow and do better. But when we cancel them, they're
going to go and they're going tohide and they're not going to
change. They're going to think society
sucks and they're going to cancel society too.
It's like a two way St. And then it's.
You can't help but think that itfeels like those that are cruel
(27:37):
online are just cruel 24/7. But the fact of the matter is,
you take away that megaphone, shut off that computer or the
phone, they could just be as sensitive and weak or
problematic themselves, or most likely are because we're all
human. And do you think it'll Do you
(27:58):
see a way out? Do you think things will get
better or how can they? I know you can't answer the
world's problem. It's like saying what's the
meaning of life? But what do you see is what has
to happen for things to improve?Or are the next generations of
kids just going to have it worse?
And I can't even imagine what worse would.
Be I can definitely give some advice about how we cannot
(28:20):
engage in cancel culture and what we can do instead for sure.
That would be great. I think what people need to do
is they need to just pause and take a breath before they post
anything or even have an opinion.
I think that the best thing to do is not to react and instead
reflect so you can ask yourself questions like do I have the
(28:43):
full story? Is this post about
accountability or is it just youknow, someone trying to be
right? You can ask yourself, would
would I say this comment to someone that someone's face?
Would I say this to someone's face?
And then that pause can turn into, you know, an actual what
(29:04):
do I actually feel about this instead of I need to be right or
wrong or pick a side. The other thing is to swap call
outs for call insurance. So instead of thinking, oh, this
person's cancelled, you could say, I saw this and it made me
uncomfortable. We need to talk about it and
think about it. So you can call in and invite
(29:27):
reflection and in that in turn can lead to better connection.
And it's it, it helps because ithelps people change by having an
uncomfortable conversation instead of just cancelling them.
The the other thing is to name behavior and not the person.
So instead of saying this personis horrible, they need to be
(29:47):
exiled and forgotten forever. You can say that person's action
was the thing that caused the harm, not that the person is the
harmful person. And so that gives people this,
this space to actually, you know, grow and, and do better.
The, the other thing is that youcan give people the time and
space to apologize and let them try again.
(30:10):
And instead of just saying bye, instead, you can let them
actually take responsibility andrepair the relationships.
The last thing I can say is thatwe need to basically, you know,
we need to teach and practice what real accountability looks
like. Because the idea that
(30:30):
accountability is just exiling someone and treating them like
they're disposable, that's not real accountability.
It's not, it's just, it's exiling someone.
And so true accountability includes naming the harm,
listening to the people that areactually affected, taking the
steps to repair, and then doing better moving forward.
(30:52):
And so if we want a culture of accountability, we need to model
what accountability actually looks like, instead of just
punishing and exiling people because when they're exiled,
they can't actually do the work to do better.
That's very true. I feel like they're.
Always a lot of sense. They're always wanting more, but
(31:12):
it's never going to be enough. I feel like they'll never be
satisfied. If someone puts out a statement,
they're they're going to nitpickevery word and there's nothing
that could have been said differently or better
necessarily that would change their opinion.
It's just a mob mentality, like we said before.
(31:32):
And I really like the idea of taking a break, taking a moment.
I remember I had a old, I had a former boss of mine had the
scrolling on her screensaver. It was before you speak think
and it's had like it was an acronym, you know, THINK.
Is it true? Is it helpful?
(31:54):
Is it inspiring? Is it necessary?
Is it kind? And I think if all these kids
thought the word think and thought about those words before
they wrote them, even in response to being harassed or
bullied, even if it's not, they're not the ones, you know,
doing that. Both sides, like you said, need
(32:14):
to. I like the idea of a call in and
let's come together and talk. I actually get like the warm and
fuzzies on the occasions. I don't know if Angie knows what
I'm talking about. On occasion when you see like a
thoughtful conversation about, yes, the situation and
everybody's sort of like, I appreciate what you're saying.
(32:35):
Oh, I can understand what you'rewhere you're coming from.
And yeah, that makes sense. You just just be good humans
right at the end of the day. And I like the idea what you
said about. Would you say it to the person's
face? Could you?
Would you? These are valuable tools.
Going back to talking about the person that is being cancelled
(32:58):
in particular, would you be ableto speak a little more on the
effects of being cancelled? Whether it's a public figure or,
you know, a 14 year old kid on their computer screen, What what
really happens to someone as, asthey're effectively cancelled
(33:19):
and go through this, this, you know, process of being basically
wiped from society or labeled a monster.
Yes, yes, being labeled a monster.
It's not good, I can tell you that.
I mean, it's, it leads to a lot of psychological effects like
shame and humiliation, anxiety and depression, isolation and
(33:42):
loneliness. There's a psychologist named
Naomi Torres Mackey, and she says that cancel culture leaves
no room for nuance or grace, which are essentially the things
that heal and provide accountability.
And it cuts people off rather than calling them in, like I
said. And so really the action of
(34:03):
cancelling someone, that person who is cancelled, it can
literally lead to people committing suicide.
It's really, really it's, it's the worst thing you can do to
someone really. I mean, they put people in
prison into isolation rooms, cutting them off from from
everything as punishment that and it's the worst thing you can
(34:26):
really do to someone and people who go through that, it can
literally lead them to having mental illness.
It's really, really horrible. And so for for young people who
are seeing this and for the people experiencing it on both
parties, it creates a culture ofshame and silence.
(34:47):
And it also it can lead to people feeling really, really
depressed and impossibly suicidal if they're the ones on
the receiving end. Yeah, I think grace is the
keyword for all of it. We need to have more of that.
Yes, we do need more of that. A lot more of that.
I know cancel culture, too, likeyou said, has also sort of
(35:10):
forced a lot of kids, and let's face it, a lot of adults too, to
remain quiet about things that they would normally speak up
about. How can teens stand up for their
interests or find the courage totalk about something that they
like without getting pulled intoa toxic argument?
(35:31):
Yeah, I. Think that the best thing to do
is to agree to disagree. Honestly, I think that's kind of
the best thing you can do is saywe're not going to see eye to
eye on everything, but I'd love to agree to disagree on this.
I respect you, I love you. This might just be one thing we
don't agree on. That's fair.
(35:52):
Yeah, that's great. And I just had a looking back,
looking at the questions, I got some from some of the listeners,
one of the ones I don't know if you have any advice for this.
How can a young person help their friend that is struggling
from afar or like a an online friend that's really having a
(36:13):
tough time. They feel a little helpless
because they're not near them and how how can they be there to
support them? I guess just listen or.
Yeah, I work with kids. I've worked with kids for the
last couple of years, and one kid was describing to me how
they were feeling really depressed at one point.
(36:36):
And the way that they felt, which a lot of people with
depression feel, is that no one cares.
And so one of the best things you can do for someone in your
life that maybe you want to helpis know, make them know that you
care about them, that they matter to you, that their life
(36:56):
is important to you. And it can be as simple as
messaging them and saying, hey, I just want you to know I care
about you so much and you're a really important person in my
life. Wow.
I think that's huge. Just no.
Just that touch. And it's so simple, it's.
A lot it is, but it's like you just saying that was like, of
(37:18):
course, yeah. And then like, you know, I
think, I think kids, I say this with my daughter, like I don't
know if it's COVID or what. Sometimes it's hard for them to
express like emotional things like that.
But it doesn't have to get to like deeper heavy or sappy.
(37:39):
It could just be as simple as like, I'm here.
And yeah, I think that is meaningful.
I've had kids reach out to me that have just sort of I always
show it to my daughter because I'm always like blown away like
that. They took the time to send me a
message just saying thank you for being a positive space, like
(37:59):
thank you for the time you take to do what you do and to be
there. And for a kid to come out and
say that like it, it means a lotto me.
So I can only imagine, you know,like friend to friend online,
like leaving the tweets and likegoing to the message and just
saying something sort of a reaching out the hand moment.
(38:20):
Absolutely. Yeah, like late at night, if
they have, you know, no one at home to talk to or and they see
that they're online, like just that that personal connection,
even if it's miles and miles away.
I'll do that with with one of myfriends, one of my best friends,
even if even if there's nothing particular wrong.
I mean, you know, we're busy. We don't always get to talk very
(38:41):
often. So, you know, you don't even
just sending a quick message like, hey, thinking about you,
hope you're having a good day, stuff like that.
I feel like it goes a really long way.
And Ellie, I don't know again ifif you'd be able to give any
advice on this, but what would be?
And this is another question from our listeners.
(39:03):
What's the best way to handle the emotional toll that the
hatred fandom or online takes onyou?
Yeah, I think the first thing you need to do is just
acknowledge what's happening. Just radically accept and
(39:24):
acknowledge that what's happening really hurts and you
can even kind of give an affirmation of like this is.
Horrible this is really. Painful.
I'm human, I'm human. And then I think I think it's so
important, especially if you're feeling really a lot of issues
(39:49):
with, you know, anxiety or depression, I think it's really,
really important to maybe go outand see a therapist.
I don't think we should handle these feelings alone.
I really don't, especially when they're so negative and toxic.
I think especially find even a meditative a meditation
(40:11):
practitioner going and seeing someone that can help you do
deep breathing, grounding and and really just.
Regulating your nervous system because experiencing that type
and that level of hate is just so harmful for your body and
your nervous system. It puts you in fight or flight
mode. It's a lot to handle.
(40:34):
And I mean, the other thing to say is that learning to not
internalize it. And so usually a really good
therapist can help you do that where it can help you realize,
OK, whoever's raining this hate down on me, that's their own
shit. That's their own stuff that's
going on. That's not about me.
(40:55):
But often times it's not, it's, it's easier said than done.
And so I that's where I recommend a therapist to help
with that. Because that's what they're
trying to do. They're trained to help you with
that. And and then the last thing
we'll say is give pain purpose and ask what is this teaching me
(41:19):
about what I want to be and evenwhat you know, Even when other
people don't see me, What is this teaching me about myself
and who I want to be? Right.
It's like what not to do? You don't want to be the the
person that makes someone feel like the person made you feel.
(41:42):
I know there will be some kids that will listen to this and
they will say either I've asked my parents if I can go to
therapy and they tell me, you know, no, I don't think you need
it or I think it's silly or whatnot.
Are there any resources out there for teenagers that might
(42:03):
have parents that aren't necessarily supportive?
Maybe just a place that they canreach out to and there's someone
to talk to in the event that they're not able to actually go
and see a therapist. Yeah, definitely.
It's complicated. I talk a lot about the mental
(42:23):
health care system, but I do want to provide some hope.
I don't want people to feel likeit's a lost cause.
I know there was a law passed recently.
Actually, I'm not sure if it wasnationally or just in
California, I'd have to check onthat.
But I know that the law passed basically makes it so that
anyone, any minor can go and access therapy if they have
(42:47):
insurance. I'm completely free and
anonymously and they're they don't need parental permission.
So I would say the best thing todo is is talk to a doctor or
someone at your school and I believe they should be able to
access it without any parental permission.
(43:08):
OK, you write up a good point toschool counselors.
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there a lot of schools
don't have a lot of counselors and they don't have enough
counselors. And we need more.
We desperately need more. There are I mean, there are
different resources online like the it's it gets better project
OK to talk the crisis emergency helpline.
(43:31):
I mean even ChatGPT. I mean, if you want to get funny
with it, I mean, literally AI has become such a great school.
It's not perfect. It probably is not the most
amazing thing ever, but it is free and it is accessible and it
does have a whole lot of knowledge, so even something as
(43:52):
simple as typing in your problems to ChatGPT and getting
some solutions could be huge fora lot of people.
I know ChatGPT is popular in in the community too so.
Yes, that's true. I know that some in my life, it
was very helpful. Affirmations I heard you
mentioned before can be so helpful.
(44:13):
I know someone that had like a little sign by the bathroom
mirror and in their car that said I am calm and I am strong.
And if you sort of keep repeating those things to
yourself or something similar, like, yeah, you had suggested I
am human. I forgot what the other part
(44:34):
was. But things like that, I really
do feel like they helped becauseyou sort of just it's almost
meditative, right? You you distinct those thoughts
in your mind. Repeat them.
And I think they're it does help.
Affirmations can be really helpful.
Meditation and breath work can be incredibly helpful.
Journaling is a great tool. Exercise and nutrition are
(44:59):
really really important. Proper sleep.
Teens need more sleep than adults.
They need like 9 hours. I actually, I won the science
fair as a teenager about my research on school start times.
And I think it contributed to later researchers actually
developing the the research to get schools to start later in a
(45:22):
lot of places. And so just getting enough sleep
can be huge. Getting off your phone and going
outside is absolutely huge. And then the other thing is that
I, I like to say the opposite ofdepression is connection.
And I think that a lot of us arenot connected with others in the
(45:45):
way that we should. And most people don't know that
developing a true close friendship can take on average
40 hours. So people might think, oh, why
is that person not my friend? Well, that the question to ask
is, did I spend 40 hours with that person?
Did I put in the effort to see that person for 40 hours?
(46:08):
Like it really does take time, it takes effort, but it's so
worth it. And we need to start putting
ourselves out there and having these meaningful conversations
and then building these meaningful connections.
Yeah, in person, right, I mean, not just online.
Yes, yes, in person. Yeah, the cooling generation
(46:28):
left a lot of kids being online a lot of the time.
And even still, like my daughterwatches TV shows and movies with
her friends in her room online, which I'm grateful for the fact
that they could do that anytime they want, which is cool.
But I encourage seeing each other in person as well.
(46:49):
Yes, and. I feel like there's a lot of
kids today that place importanceon how many friends they have.
And I've got this question, you know, or the comment every once
in a while and my answer is always do you want 100 OK
friends or a couple really closefriends to me, like the answer
(47:11):
is obvious. I would much rather have a small
number of really close friends than a huge number of people
that I called my friends but maybe aren't really exactly my
friends. And I feel like kids place too
much importance on the number ofpeople that they know, almost
(47:32):
like the number of followers, I guess on social media, right.
And I feel like they, I feel like there needs to be more
importance like you had just talked about placed on the
importance of a few really good close personal friendships.
(47:53):
And I I don't think that's happening enough today.
Absolutely. And you know, I think what
you're saying that a lot of people place this unrealistic
expectation on themselves that they need to have a million
friends. I think that is such a problem.
And The thing is, is that even arecent study came out that 73%
(48:15):
of young adults feel really alone and disconnected.
And another study found that about half of Gen.
Z feels like they have no close friends.
And so for someone to be mad about the fact or, you know,
depressed about the fact that they have no close friendships,
they're, they're not alone with that.
(48:37):
I mean, it's a lot, a lot of people who are feeling that way,
which breeds an opportunity for young people to start building
meaningful connections because they're all in the same boat.
They're all going through it together.
So this is such a good time for people to start saying, hey, I
need to go out there and I need to start building my friendships
(48:57):
and connections and I need to get my 40 hours in with these
people. I like that it gives them a goal
40 hours. That's an interesting statistic.
I never heard that before, but that's.
Yeah, man, I should be really good friends with my coworkers
then all. Right.
Meaningful hours. Meaningful hours.
You gotcha. OK, good point.
(49:22):
But I mean, you think about it, a lot of people who end up on
sports teams, they end up becoming good friends and it's
because they they have those hours.
It's. Very true.
That is true, yeah. You know, it's funny.
My my daughter is in karate and she's there probably 5-6 nights
a week and some of her very bestfriends are from karate and I I
(49:43):
guess I just thought about it, it's because they they spend the
time together there and apparently it must be quality
time so. Yeah, that's that's wonderful.
Ali, I thank you, but I, I wouldlike to give you the opportunity
to, to tell us more about your your book and where people could
find it. Yeah, my book is called Out of
(50:06):
Focus. Why Gen.
Z's mental health crisis is morecomplex than you can think, Than
You think. And you can find it on out of
focusbook.com. And you can also find me on
social media at Ali Frydenberg, which is so hard to spell, but
maybe you guys can drop, drop itin your little links.
But yeah, I, I, my book is just something that was honestly born
(50:32):
from grief. I lost my best friend and it was
the hardest thing I've ever beenthrough.
I personally struggled most my life with depression as well.
And it's something that I think should be spoken from someone
who's actually experienced it. And a lot of the people who are
talking about the subject are older researchers like Jonathan
(50:54):
Height or Scott Galloway and, and other people who have not
lived it. And so for me, I'm one of the
few young people who's actually put out a book about this
because I feel like now more than ever, we need to do
something about this crisis. I agree with you and it makes it
more relatable when you're of that age that your audience of
(51:17):
the audience that the book is meant for.
I'm sorry you had to go through an awful time and all that
heartache, but something great was born of it.
So kudos to you for that. And we'll definitely put the
link everywhere on our website and social media.
And it's meant a lot for us to have you on here today.
(51:39):
I appreciate it so much and I know the audience will as well.
I second that. Thank you so much.
It's been wonderful chatting with you well.
Thank you too, and I'm excited to hear it come out and thank
you for the work that you do. And I, I wanted to say to you
that you know, a lot of people are scared to speak up on such
important topics. And so I commend you both for
(52:01):
wanting to do that work and to speak up because more of us
really need to. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Well, thank you guys.
Bye all. Right.
Take care. Thank you.
Bye. Bye.
Bye.
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