32: Love, Consciousness, and the Unknown Ft. Mark Gober: exploring the consciousness journey through reality, paradigm shifts, and everything in between

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
People often say that the spiritual awakening journey is one of unlearning and I really see it that way because it's getting rid of whatever

(00:06):
conditioning is preventing us from being in that state of living from the place of unconditional love, which is the natural state of consciousness
that we're a part of. It's almost like we're in a cosmic puzzle and each of us is a puzzle piece.
So our our goal is to embody that puzzle piece to the best of our ability.
The golden rule is built into the fabric of reality. The consciousness shift is the most important thing.

(00:28):
More so than anything structural because
we'll behave differently and in a freer society people will behave more
honorably if they have a different consciousness. So they go together that go moving to a freer society and having a higher consciousness or
they move in tandem.
Love is truth.
They're sort of synonymous because what's the truth about the nature of reality?

(00:53):
It's that we're part of a consciousness that's made of love. So if we move towards truth, we're inherently going to be pulled towards love.
So what I've tried to do in my work since I started with consciousness is apply that framework and say, look, there's all this stuff politically and economically
that's problematic and
it's in the wrong framework. So if we put it in a different container then it's going to make sense.
So that's how I like to think about any domain of

(01:14):
exploration. Just by the very fact that we're here today having this conversation,
I know that we are getting out of this. I know that this new world is happening because
we are coming together and we're creating it.

(01:35):
Welcome home to the Loving Consciously Podcast. My name is Ameris and my name is Eric and if you are like us,
nobody taught you how to love. We are best friends and life partners here to vulnerably and authentically share our seven-year journey to unconditional love.
Our mission is to help you learn how to love consciously in all of your relationships
so we can journey together towards a more effective, intentional and fulfilling way of giving and receiving love.

(01:59):
Loving Consciously. Together we have overcome neurodivergence, mental health, addiction, pregnancy loss, infidelity and grief.
After six years, the lack of knowledge on how to heal or love each other through these challenges led to our separation.
After us both spiritually awakening and recommitting, we built our new conscious partnership founded on unconditional love and a commitment to personal growth.

(02:22):
Thank you for joining us as we put it all out there to show you the duality of our loves, pain and beauty.
And remind you that you have both the capacity to love consciously and the power to always choose love.
Namaste and welcome back to the Loving Consciously Podcast.
We are really excited and honored to have a very special guest with us today.

(02:44):
We are going to be talking about all things consciousness and truth and love and we can't wait to dive into that.
So Mark, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
Thank you so much for having me.
Before I ask you our intro question, I would love it if you could give an overview of who you are and the work that you do

(03:05):
and maybe what brought you to the work of consciousness.
I never expected to be doing this sort of thing. I'll start there.
I used to work in business and finance. I did investment banking in New York.
That was back in 2008. So I was there during the financial crisis.
Pretty tough time to be in that industry. It's a tough industry to begin with, but especially with all that going on, it was a challenging way to start my career.

(03:32):
And at the time, I didn't have a sense of meaning or purpose other than just trying to win or accomplish the next thing that was in front of me.
So I was basically like just running on a treadmill. That's what it felt like.
I was I was sprinting really hard, but not going anywhere and just trying to achieve the next thing in front of me.
But I had the wherewithal at that point to know that I didn't want to do investment banking in New York forever.

(03:57):
So I left the firm in 2010 and joined a firm where I ended up spending 10 years first in Boston.
But the majority of my time was in Silicon Valley.
And this was advising technology focused companies on some mergers and acquisitions, but also helping them with their strategy, especially as it related to their inventions and intellectual property and patented technologies.

(04:20):
So I just give you this context because the things we're going to talk about today have nothing to do with my background.
While I was working in Silicon Valley at this company, I hit a wall in my life in many ways where I just in addition to not feeling a sense of meaning or purpose, there were some things going on like professionally and personally where I didn't succeed in the ways that I wanted or things weren't going the way that I wanted.

(04:43):
And I didn't have the context of understanding why I exist to be able to deal with that very well, especially after just so much time of running on that treadmill.
So many would call it a dark night of the soul and hindsight, I know what that is now. And I was definitely a dark night of the soul.
So I started listening to podcasts at the time and I really felt like I was in a zombie state.
I mean, I just I had worked so much that I knew how to get by doing all that stuff, but I felt like a zombie and I listened to podcasts on alternative health initially and then started to hear things about the nature of consciousness and the nature of reality.

(05:16):
And long story short, we'll get into this. It started to push me in the direction of a view of reality that is inherently spiritual, meaning that there were anecdotal pieces of evidence and also just more traditional science and peer reviewed papers and things like that, which were pointing in me in this direction, which was completely contrary to how I used to look at life.

(05:37):
So that was a big shift for me back in 2016. It led me to then write my first book called an end to upside down thinking, which was published in 2018 by road the next year in 2017, while I was still working.
So I'd written the first book, I was a partner at my firm at this point, and then produce a podcast series in 2019 on the same topics. It's called Where is my mind where I interviewed a lot of the scientists that I wrote about.

(06:01):
And I was at a crossroads at this point because I didn't know how to split my energy between more traditional client focus work, which took a lot of energy to do and to do it well.
And that was my obligation and also working within my firm. But then I had this other passion toward just trying to understand what's going on.
I mean, I'd written a book and a podcast series, but I felt like I was just stretching the surface of like, okay, I'm just starting here. There's a lot more for me to learn.

(06:24):
And I made a decision, which was really, really hard at the time to leave my firm because I was on a great track career wise. Like in my early 30s, I was a young new partner at the firm. I really understood the business well.
And there was so much opportunity, but it didn't it wasn't calling to me in the same way. And I actually felt physical tension from that trying to hold the client work with this other these other interests.

(06:48):
And my newfound view of life led me to a perspective where my overall purpose mattered more and I didn't feel like the job that I was in was matching with it.
So I made the decision to leave and of course I didn't know what was going to happen consciously at least in terms of where the world went because this was late 2019 early 2020.
Everything shut down. And long story short, I've written a number of books since then and then upside down living on spiritual awakening basically and the personal development path and then upside down Liberty, which is about

(07:18):
Voluntaryism, political and economic theory, then an end to upside down contact, which is about contact with non human intelligences as it pertains to consciousness. Then I wrote an end to the upside down reset, which is on the world economic forums vision for society, which they've called the great reset.
And then an end to upside down medicine, which is about consciousness and healing but also about germ theory, allopathic medicine and a lot of controversial topics. And I have a seventh book coming out likely in the fall of 2024.

(07:48):
So I've been in this mode of, I guess, creativity for the last several years, where I get pulled into a new topic because I just mentioned a lot of different topics that are sort of related but not really in many ways.
I never can predict what it's going to be. So I've just been open to following what comes next. And here we are.
Oh, no big deal. You've just done a couple of things. Thank you so much for sharing that. You know, as you were talking, something that was really standing out to me that I really relate to.

(08:15):
I know you do as well. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners do is when you're making that transition between like not being conscious and moving into consciousness and questioning reality and all that comes with that, which is everything you just named and more.
We could never even scratch the surface. It's like, it is like, it's you're running this, this rap race, you know, I was working in FinTech financial technology for cash app in management and yeah, just that similar experience of, you know, you kind of have to literally leave your whole life behind and question everything.

(08:46):
And that takes courage. And so I just want to save some space and admire the courage that you've had to walk this path and do this work. It's not popular yet. And you know, it is really challenging. It really requires you to confront your humanity and your lack of humanity as well.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a interesting process of death and rebirth. And, you know, waking up to consciousness, you go through these different phases of like, okay, there's, there's an awareness that maybe the way that I'm living right now isn't for my highest good, and isn't my highest potential.

(09:28):
There's something else out there. And then you start kind of pulling on that string, and that string starts to unravel and it's almost like the more that you learn, the more you realize you know nothing at all.
And it's this interesting just process of like, okay, how can I shed my previous identity and step into what I'm being called to do. And like Amorous just said, you know, the courage to leave that firm, because like you said, you had everything set up for you.

(10:06):
And so it's a very clear path forward, really aligned for what the matrix wants us to do, right, which is go do the thing, get the money, keep spending the money and keep making more, and then retire and then kind of fade off into the distance and reincarnate and do it all again.
And it takes great courage to step out of that and step into your purpose. So thank you for doing that.

(10:32):
And I thank you both for saying that I appreciate it because many of the people in my world who have, let's say a more traditional path, don't necessarily see what you both just described and the further I've gone into questioning paradigms, the more I feel like I'm on an island by myself.
And I have to make the call well, everyone around me disagrees with this or doesn't think I should be doing it, but I'm going to do it anyway and it seems to keep coming up in different areas of my life where I have to make those calls.

(10:57):
And I guess we do live in this world when the majority of the world doesn't think the way that we do. Generally speaking, that the paradigms that we're going to be talking about today are just very different than the mainstream paradigms.
That's what I mean. And therefore, we're always going to have one foot in one foot out to some degree just because we live in this world.
And for me, it's felt pretty extreme just for many different reasons where I've had one foot in one foot out and had to try to energetically balance it.

(11:22):
And that's the best way to put it because it is hard to switch back and forth. And sometimes we have no choice because our friends and family and things like that.
I've become more accustomed to doing it and it feels like the challenges get harder and harder where the thing that I'm being called to do is more and more controversial or more and more against the grain and have to, like, can I really do this or this?
And then I have to make the decision that I am going to do it.

(11:44):
Before I pause Amherst, I'm going to say a synchronicity here is that when I worked in New York and investment banking, I covered financial institutions and one of our covered areas was fintech.
So I have some fintech experience too.
Yeah, it's an interesting area of tech for sure. You kind of get like the merger of like finance and technology and, and yeah, it was a, it was an experience I learned a lot.

(12:06):
I've been working with cash out for like three years, but you know, something you just said and I just really want to thank you for your vulnerability because it was, it was really ringing true and it was when you were talking about like feeling like you're alone on an island.
Like the farther you go on the consciousness journey. And we talk about this a lot. The more that you realize, not many people are doing that. And it is so against the mainstream and so against what the majority of the planet is doing it can feel really isolating.

(12:34):
And so again, just thank you for doing it in such a public way and doing it in, you know, such an honorable way and just being so brave. I wonder sometimes if I could do that and then I remind myself of doing it right now on this podcast.
You're both doing it. Thank you.
You know, and it's also not lost to me too. Like, we talk about this a lot on this show and it feels like a nice time to mention it that we're really blessed to have each other.

(12:57):
You know, like even if I had a dollar for every time I turn and I'm like, okay, seriously, tell me like have I lost it now? Like is this the line? Like is this the line of questioning? Is this the line of reality?
Am I in a psych ward right now? I'm talking to myself. It's kind of our running joke, but I want to ask you our intro question and then we're going to get real deep into consciousness and I can't freaking wait.

(13:20):
It's obviously one of our two favorite things in the world next to love. So what does loving consciously look like in your life?
You sent me the question before the interview and I purposely didn't want to think about it much because I wanted to give a spontaneous answer.
I love that.
I like to do that. Well, now it's going to have to tie this into consciousness because it really relates to a definition of love and the way that my worldview looks now is that consciousness is the basis of all reality.

(13:49):
And that means everything that we think is physical is actually just a modulation of consciousness in some way.
And one of the qualities of consciousness and this comes from many people who have mystical experiences, whether it's a near death state or through meditation or psychedelics, some other worldly experience.
And they seem to have lots of parallels. People talk about being immersed in unconditional love in a way that cannot be described with words.

(14:12):
So they will use language, but they'll say, look, I'm not even capturing what this is. And they converge in a very similar worldview.
So to me, that's very compelling. Is it like a researcher just to see, oh, wow, they're talking about the same thing.
And they will say that the quality of the consciousness that we're all a part of is unconditional love. So that's actually a property of it.
So to live from that place would be to live in alignment with the truth of reality.

(14:39):
Whereas the reality that we inhabit, because we're not in a state of unconditional love all the time, inherently has some kind of obstruction.
So an analogy that's often used is that, let's just say consciousness is like the sun that's always shining.
And if we say the property of consciousness inherently is that it's one of unconditional love is that the unconditional love is shining all the time.

(15:01):
Whereas we live in a world where we don't feel that all the time, meaning there are clouds that get in the way of it.
So to live from that place would be to try to remove the obstructions in our lives to get rid of the clouds.
And people often say that the spiritual awakening journey is one of unlearning.
And I really see it that way because it's getting rid of whatever conditioning is preventing us from being in that state of living from the place of unconditional love,

(15:29):
which is the natural state of consciousness that we're a part of.
So to me, that's what it means. And it's easy to say that the journey, however, is how do we remove those layers?
And we're all doing it in many different ways because it's in some ways intellectual because of beliefs that we have.
But it can also just be trauma that we're trying to overcome or conditioning that we don't even realize we have.

(15:51):
It could even relate to other dimensions or past lives.
It becomes very complicated when we actually think about practically how to do this.
But that's my answer.
It's such a beautiful answer.
And you're right.
There are so many different ways to tackle this.
I loved that analogy about consciousness being like the sun and the clouds.

(16:12):
That really, really clicked for me.
And we're always saying of our natural state of love, right?
Love is the foundation of everything.
And so it's just so cool to hear that perspective from someone who's much more researched than I am.
I'm curious where in this model or where in your research or where in maybe your personal opinion ego falls into this.

(16:37):
Because we talk a lot about that on the show.
And when we look at removing those obstructions, we've kind of in our spiritual journey just by chance and what we've come across done a lot of ego work.
And that's kind of the path that we've taken to overcome some of those obstructions.
I'm curious where that falls in for you.

(16:58):
The term ego has so many different definitions depending on who you talk to and depending on the context.
From one perspective, we could say that ego is the individuated personality, which by definition is obstructed from the pure oneness of the sun shining because it's an individuation of it.
And therefore it's not the totality.
But there's a paradox here, which I don't think I fully grappled with, whereby the individuation could be a pure vessel of the light.

(17:28):
And the uniqueness of the individual, that is the ego is beneficial in that way because it's embodying some uniqueness that it came here to embody.
But then there can be layers within that ego structure.
And I think this is what you're referring to.
And I've done a lot of work on this too.
Layers within that structure of uniqueness that actually get in the way.

(17:49):
So the challenge becomes the analogy I've used in my books is that it's almost like we're in a cosmic puzzle and each of us is a puzzle piece.
So our goal is to embody that puzzle piece to the best of our ability.
So I was visibly laugh. He says that all the time and I actually am launching my ministry podcast in a few weeks and that's kind of the premise of the whole introduction is about this cosmic puzzle and all the different pieces.

(18:18):
Wow. We didn't pre-plan this.
We are coming from the same mind.
So I am you and you are me, right?
Yeah, we pre-planned it just not in this lifetime.
Yes.
It's so interesting. Like you were saying, like it really is each person is this unique flame unique fractal expression of the source, the creator, whatever label that people want to use for the divine.

(18:42):
We all have that unique spark that only we can bring to this planet.
And the beauty of the ego and that individuation is that each one of us is that unique brand of snowflake and beauty that we can birth that kind of aspect of creation into this plane.

(19:04):
And it comes with its own challenges because from a kind of baseline standpoint, the ego is it's its own kind of animal brain.
It lacks consciousness.
And so what I've come to understand in the journey is our role as spirit as kind of higher dimensional beings coming down to experience life as human is to bring consciousness to the ego mind and to help it transition as we all transition in consciousness from being kind of in the survival state

(19:43):
and into being in the state of unconditional love.
While it's so simple, like you said, it's just clearing the obstructions.
The fundamental truth of the universe is that we are all loved all the time.
It's all unconditional love.
We talk about it a lot on this podcast and that the basis of, you know, conscious relating and conscious loving is learning to love each other unconditionally and vibrating at that frequency and staying there.

(20:11):
And at any time that anything comes up, it's a matter of free will and that we we've chosen an experience that is outside of the fundamental truth of the universe.
And that's OK.
And that's a learning experience for us.
And then our journey of growth in relating with one another is kind of learning.

(20:32):
OK, what what did my choice do to impact the others around me or how did others impact us?
And how can we return to love?
Because that's really what it all is about.
Love heals everything.
And that's just kind of the answer.
I love the way you said that.
Like if I had to succinct it down to how do we remove the obstructions, return to love, right?

(20:58):
Like that's so simple.
But obviously that's doing the trauma work and doing the inner work and doing all of these things.
But it's that return to that innate love.
We have little things like survival that we have to worry about too.
So then the practical considerations get in the way of the more philosophical aspects.
Such a delicate balance.

(21:19):
So complex.
I'm really curious what your perspective and thoughts are on, we'll just say the divine God source creator, the sun.
I'm curious what you even perceive that to be as especially getting so deep into a lot of the near death experience research that you've done and just broader consciousness research as well.

(21:41):
Where has that landed you on that spectrum?
Well, the term God is used in different ways, depending on who you're talking to.
I don't view it as a separate entity like me talking to you as a separate thing.
It almost becomes anthropomorphized where it's a separate entity in some context.

(22:04):
I view it based on everything I've looked at as the totality.
So it is the underlying consciousness intelligence that's made of unconditional love that we're all a part of.
We could call that consciousness God in the way I look at it that those are synonymous basically.
And there's a philosopher named Dr. Bernardo Castro, who gives an analogy that, of course, analogies are just analogies for and for something so complex.

(22:27):
It's probably not exactly like this.
But he says that all of reality could be likened to a stream of water where water is analogous to consciousness and each of us is a whirlpool within the stream.
So each of us has an individuated whirlpool in some ways is God or part of God, but is also not the totality in the current structure.
So then we get into all kinds of paradoxes of individual versus collective, but that whole stream to me, that's what I would regard as God or the divine.

(22:56):
And that's not to say that there aren't.
If we consider there to be multi dimensional whirlpools, there could be advanced intelligences that are God like to us and we someone might perceive them as the divine because relative to where we are, there's so much more advanced.
But even that to me would still be an individuation relative to the totality, which would be the God.

(23:18):
That is a really great analogy.
And you're right.
You could never we could never capture these things, right?
Like that's the, I feel like the crux of just like the human condition is we're trying to describe the indescribable almost.
And I just love how much that's open for interpretation and we all get to kind of paint our own little piece and build this beautiful mural of a puzzle.

(23:40):
I am just going to go there because you open the door and I'm dying to ask you when you said multi dimensional.
And I don't even know really what the question is, so I just would love us to dig into that because that's something else you've researched.
It's one of your books.
And so what what have you found in this world that is multi dimensional and and or extraterrestrial.

(24:06):
My book and end to upside down contact, which was published published in 2022. That's where I get into this subject of human interactions with intelligent beings that don't seem to be human, although sometimes they're described as humanoid.
And when that topic comes up often like in the mainstream, you'll hear about UFOs and they're even congressional hearings on it.

(24:29):
But what you don't often hear in those discussions is the multi dimensional aspect, especially the dimension of consciousness. And that seems to be deeply intertwined.
And that's one of the things that hooked me to it because we often just hear about a craft in the sky and then we wonder, is it little green men like flying it.
And it's a physical description versus wait a second, what if it's all multi dimensional or at least some of it is and some of the encounters that people have are not even in a physical sense.

(24:57):
So the way I divide up that book and my own thinking, the book is really just a reflection of my own frameworks that I share.
But it's like I was trying to get a hold of this because the UFO stuff seems important, but maybe there are other things too.
The two categories I put it in is non UFO related contact and UFO related contact, meaning associated with a craft.
So the non UFO related contact would be things like a near death experience where a person is in some kind of extreme physiological trauma that could be cardiac arrest, something where they might even be in clinical death, according to what doctors would say.

(25:32):
And yet their consciousness is highly active and they come back in their body.
Sometimes they describe what happened from a vantage point outside their body.
So they might say, I was hovering over my body. I saw what you did during the procedure.
I heard this person down the hall say this thing and the doctors and the family members say, no, that's impossible because you were clinically dead or you're very close to it.
And even if you were alive, how could your consciousness see and perceive things from these other vantage points?

(25:57):
So when they when they say these things and they say them accurately, when they the perceptions are accurate, they're called vertical out of body experiences, meaning they're verified memories, meaning that they're not hallucinations by definition.
If they're saying something that's accurate, it's not hallucination, which causes all kinds of problems for mainstream science because this shouldn't happen.
Now I give that preface to say that, well, if some of the things that are happening in near death experience, at least, at least sometimes they're not hallucinations, then we should take them very seriously.

(26:23):
And that leads into your question, which is about contact because people have contact in the near death experience state.
They will encounter deceased relatives sometimes to cease pets, but also divine beings, meaning it could be a religious figure.
They could say, I saw Jesus or the Buddha or some pagan God or a being of light or a God like presence.

(26:47):
They have encounters with intelligences where there's a it seems like a two way interaction.
One that's coming to mind right now when I did my podcast series, I interviewed a bunch of people that had these experiences and one man named Alan Huguenot, who's a scientist himself and had this motorcycle accident a few decades ago.
And he encountered this being and was like, this is a being I've known throughout time.

(27:09):
And I felt like I was being held like a baby's held.
So he was interacting with the being that's contact that's on the same radar as UFO stuff in my mind because it's like, okay, what's going on here?
His body was in a hospital room or whatever was going on.
And yet his consciousness was having this experience.
I'll give one more example before I pause here because it ties the UFO topic to like with psychedelics and in particular Rick Strasman's work who's done work on DMT, dimethyltryptamine, where he was giving it to people intravenously.

(27:39):
And a lot of the stuff hasn't been studied too extensively because it couldn't be studied for all kinds of like number one ethical reasons, but also legal reasons.
And he was initially just looking for basic physiological metrics.
I believe it was things like blood pressure and that sort of thing, but they were taking DMT.
It was injected into them.
So they had these crazy experiences where they were sent out.
Who knows where and what happened?

(28:01):
Contact.
They were encountering entities.
And one of the reasons that the experiments stop is that there were concerns ethically of like, can we subject people to these entities?
It wasn't always pleasant.
And interestingly, they were describing experiences that are very similar to what are called alien abduction experiences.
But those alien abduction experiences don't happen when people are given DMT.

(28:24):
So one of the lead researchers in that field, his name was John Mack, who was the head of psychiatry at Harvard.
He was a Pulitzer Prize winner, very mainstream guy, but late in his career was studying allegations from a psychiatric lens of people who said, yeah, I was abducted and I was on a craft with these gray being sometimes there were insectoid beings, all sorts of crazy species.
And they say things like there were hybridization programs of part human, part non-human entities.

(28:49):
And his conclusion was like, okay, there's something going on here.
I don't think they're making this up, but he's describing it in one context.
And then on DMT, people are having the same thing happen to them or very similar kinds of descriptions.
So that's, that's where I get interested when you can triangulate independent accounts in totally different contexts.
One, they're given DMT intravenously and their consciousness seems to have a very real experience.

(29:14):
In another case, they're not given DMT.
And what's going on here?
How can they describe something so similar?
It suggests perhaps that there's something in the nature of reality built in where there are other entities.
Maybe sometimes they're in a physical form on a craft or something, but maybe other times it's purely multi-dimensional.
Wow.
You are incredibly researched and educated on this stuff.
I really admire it.

(29:35):
As you were talking, you know, a couple of different things came up for me, the first one being just how you were saying this creates so much, we'll say, issue or conflict for a lot of mainstream modern science.
And it just had me thinking about what we see so often in the greater collective.
I'm speaking very generally here, but just generally speaking, we see this notion of when something comes up that, you know, either is too far outside of what we can perceive to be real.

(30:04):
Right?
You said these near-death experiences and the families would be like, that's not possible.
What is it?
And I don't even know that I'm asking you, but just like hypothetically speaking here and pondering, like, what is it about human species and society today that that's always the reaction?
Is that's crazy?
That's not true.
It can't be true.
And it's really interesting because we are very similar to, and this ties back to what we were saying in the beginning of like, these things come up in my awareness, everything you've mentioned and then some.

(30:34):
And my immediate thought is, well, hold on a minute, like, there's got to be more of this.
I want to know the answer and it's to like question and seek.
But then we look at the broader population and the general reaction to that is to deny it or, you know, shun it, shame it, whatever it is, and then just kind of like go back to the daily routine.

(30:56):
And I think some of us just are less equipped to do that, you know, and those of us that are out here in the sea of consciousness, like, what is happening?
Yeah, I mean, just to kind of balance off of that, I mean, I really think it's just a basis of fear, you know, and it takes a lot of courage to.
Begin the path of consciousness and I say path loosely because everybody's experience is completely different.

(31:20):
It's really just finding oneself and knowing oneself.
It really takes the desire to unravel everything that you've ever known and question it because when you question one thing, you then have to question everything.
Everything's on the table. And so I'm curious. I'm sure that's been part of your journey, too, as you've started to question things.

(31:46):
What was your journey in kind of this research path for you?
Well, I started with one book and end upside down thinking, which I wrote the book and my publisher came up with the title.
He had a lot of foresight, Bill Gladstone. And I didn't know there would be more things that were upside down.
I said, oh, well, this is the nature of consciousness. This is the biggest thing. Maybe there's some incremental things that are upside down, but I'm not going to be writing about them.

(32:11):
People would ask me, what are you going to write about next? And I said, are you crazy? I don't have. I would need to have something that I thought was so important to write about.
And I had no clue how much more there was. And you're totally right that once you pull one thread, for me, it was consciousness.
Not everyone starts there, but you kind of end up in the same place of asking questions and challenging assumptions.
That's what it comes down to is that there seems to be a resistance. And I don't know what this what in our biology or metaphysically causes this restriction where it's we if we have a bias towards something, it's very uncomfortable to challenge that bias.

(32:42):
And there's a logical fallacy about basically appeal to personal incredulity, meaning that someone says, I can't fathom how that could be true.
I can't go through all the steps in my mind of how this could be true. And yet we live in a society that's this way and what are all the mechanics of it?
Therefore, it's not true. And people do that in a split second. That appeal to personal incredulity. I can't believe it. Therefore, it's not true. And therefore, you're crazy for even considering it versus taking the time and the energy.

(33:15):
And that's part of it also. It takes a lot of time to do it from an intellectual perspective. I haven't directly experienced most of the things I talk about, but I've talked to people who have.
And I know what it takes. It's just I have to sit there and read the count after account and talk to people and read so many books. And then it becomes very clear.
I could understand why someone wouldn't want to do that. Or maybe they're not in a position for whatever reason in their life to have that time.

(33:36):
So it's a it's a multitude of factors that can lead people to stick with the current paradigm. And yet we live in a society that seems to be structured such that it's very challenging to get out of the beliefs.
And that raises questions, too. Why is it set up this way where the truth is always being obstructed? It seems or where it's it's it's going against the current it feels like to try to get to the truth.

(33:59):
So there's something there in terms of social engineering, I think that exists that is also creating barriers.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I guess we could just say the matrix, right? If we wanted to use the catchy buzzwords.
But something I was going to say earlier that was really helpful for me and I think it's kind of similar ish to something you're saying.
But I'm curious on your thoughts on it for our listeners. If you are new to consciousness or you're like all of us, right?

(34:26):
And it's can be a little overwhelming and there's a lot to it. Something I heard that really resonated for me when you were talking about, you know, out of body experiences and your death experiences, contact DMT.
We could we could get there a multitude of ways is frequency. I heard once this analogy that like if consciousness, you know, you're you're at a certain frequency, right?

(34:49):
And each dimension has its own frequency and this body, you know, in its current state, let's just say this is the third dimension.
There's many models of this. This body is at the frequency of the third dimension, but your consciousness is separate.
You can raise the frequency of your consciousness to journey to other dimensions, right? Fourth, fifth, sixth, whatever, however many there are, number two hundred and eighty nine.

(35:11):
And your consciousness now exists. It's his lucky number. It's the most random number ever.
It's true. I can tell you once it's like two hundred eighty nine.
Okay. Can't just like have eleven or something. And so as that frequency of your consciousness, you know, whatever you perceive that to be changes, it moves to another dimension.
But this physical meat suit body shell that I have here doesn't move with it unless you're a highly advanced spiritual being that, you know, knows how to do that or have other technology that can help you do that.

(35:42):
But for the greater population, do you think that that kind of fits or or or makes sense?
Or do you have a better analogy of of consciousness and kind of moving through those dimensions?
It's making more and more sense to me now that I think about like the reality that maybe nothing is actually physical.
But there are more and more people who are challenging the notion of an atom and subatomic particles and believe that those things are inferences based on effects that we see.

(36:10):
And then they jump to a conclusion, at least mainstream science does and says, oh, well, these are physical particles because everything has to be physical fundamentally.
But what if everything is just energetic or the term I used from Rupert Spira, who's a philosopher, everything's a modulation of consciousness.
And I interpret it as this is a solid chair and this is a body and this is something that's out there physically.

(36:33):
If we actually tune in to what we're experiencing, it's always something within consciousness.
Like if you close your eyes and hear something, what's that?
It's just something going on in your consciousness.
If you feel something, wait, that's just a sensation that's occurring in my consciousness and my body and my mind does all this mental gymnastics to say, well, it's a chair that's sitting out there and it has all these particles and atoms in it.

(36:54):
So if we get to the point and say, wait, nothing's physical, it's just an interpretation is being physical, then maybe those modulations are forms of frequency.
Maybe that's the modulation, meaning all different levels of reality and perception are just different types of frequency in which consciousness is flowing.

(37:15):
So if you're tuning into a certain frequency, you're turning into a certain dimension or aspect of consciousness and have that kind of experience.
So that seems to make a lot of sense to me, at least conceptually.
Yeah, it sounds super right on par with what I was saying.
And another thing that I've heard too is, you know, you talked a lot about atoms and that is not my field, but is about matter and density and mass and, you know, electromagnetism, even we could say, and how levitation, for example, that's the thing that's kind of popping into my head right now, is if you have the level of consciousness and awareness to develop the skill to change the density of the mind,

(37:51):
change the density or frequency or electromagnetism or all the above, who knows, right?
Of your body, you could potentially levitate or walk on water, right?
And so I think about that when I think about this physical, I love that word because I'm with you, like I don't think any of it's physical at all.
It's almost like the way I've perceived it in a download I had was we're kind of our consciousness is wearing a VR headset right now.

(38:16):
And we're like seeing all this right like I see like arm or table or whatever it is and I like perceive that like this is like this physical thing.
And it's just energy. It's really just light in different frequency form. So thank you for all of your insight on that.
I would love to dig into what we were talking about a little bit around extraterrestrial contact and specifically plant medicine too.

(38:43):
I love that you brought that up. I'm curious if you're comfortable sharing if that's been a part of your journey because I think it's really common, not obviously everyone reaches consciousness through plant medicine.
That's a pretty common gateway door. I think though we didn't know it, it's what introduced us to it.
It was an LSD trip where we both experienced oneness with the cosmos is the only way I could ever attempt to describe it.

(39:08):
However, we then, you know, forgot it and went back to the rat race for like another year and then found consciousness organically.
So I'm curious, first of all, was that a part of your journey and where do you think those tie in together? Psychedelics, plant medicine and consciousness.
Let me take you back to 2016. Started listening to podcasts. The first one I heard that I remember was a Tim Ferriss episode with Mark Andreessen, who's a venture capitalist.

(39:35):
A friend of mine sent me that podcast and back then podcasts were a bit newer. I said, this is so cool.
You can listen to someone talk who's expert in their field. Now everyone does it, but that was so cool.
That got me onto Tim Ferriss, who was talking a lot about psychedelics. And at the time I was super lost and he was talking about, oh, you do these psychedelics and people all of a sudden they don't have anxiety or they just feel really good about life.

(39:56):
But I didn't feel comfortable actually doing a substance. He did mention, however, things that you could do that were not plant based or even chemically based like sensory deprivation tanks where you float in saltwater and there's so much salt that your body just stays up.
So I was living in San Francisco and I could walk to a float place. I'm like, all right, I'm going to float a bunch and see what happens. This is before I even started researching consciousness.

(40:21):
So who knows what that did because I was sitting in the float tank. I was probably getting.
We've actually done the float tank as well.
I was doing hours. Sometimes I would do four hour sessions. Turn the light off, no sound and you're floating. So it's almost like a womb setting in a way. That's what it's supposed to mimic because it's very warm.
But because you're floating, it does something to your nervous system where you're, I don't know what I don't know what it is, but it's really cool.

(40:46):
So I didn't have any crazy, crazy experiences from that. I had some memories that would come in and I never felt called, at least I haven't yet to have one of those like breakout psychedelic accounts.
I would say I've had two very mild experiences. I don't even know if you would include them. One with cacao, another with it. It was a heart based plant substance that it was like a shamanic mixture, but it wasn't anything where I was out of this world.

(41:11):
I haven't, I haven't directly experienced the things that I'm describing. I have talked to a lot of people who have, and I'll have people who say like, what I'm thinking of right now. He read my first book and then he did a plant journey and then he got back to me and said, you were right.
Like, I experienced what you wrote about.
And I said, okay, I'm not surprised because I've talked to so many people have experienced this, but I, I haven't myself.

(41:34):
So I do think psychedelics in whatever form seem to be a way to tap people into other frequencies, other parts of the stream of consciousness, so to speak.
And when in that state, I guess new things are experienced that in our ordinary biology, they're more difficult to experience just on in a natural way.

(41:55):
As someone who hasn't been in those realms, I just, I've heard a variety of types of experiences where some people have total bliss outs and incredible trauma healings, which are super positive, but then they can have negative experiences because I do think there is duality in other realms too,
meaning there's the dark and the light and even entities beings that aren't so good. And that's a topic I get into in detail in the book and end to upside down contact.

(42:19):
Even there are parts of the book I've been told where people skip it because I talk about some really evil stuff. I thought it was important to do that because to show the spectrum because there is a lot of really light stuff where people encounter angelic realms or whatever it is, where it is unconditional love.
But then there's the dark stuff too. And then there's the trickster element of deception of beings that seem to be able to, because they're so advanced, they can manipulate reality such that they appear differently to us than what they actually are.

(42:45):
The term is shape shifting, which traditions all over the world have talked about. But I'm reading John Max book, the Harvard psychiatrist. He says the alien beings appear to be consummate shape shifters, that this is just part of what they do.
And this can happen in other realms. Another thing that comes up in the contact experience, which to me is important for psychedelics and for near death experiences and anything else. And I don't hear enough people talking about it.

(43:08):
They're called screen memories where a being basically appears one way to you in your memory. But then when you go back to the memory, you realize maybe that was not the actual memory.
So the leading researcher that I found on this is named as Mike Clelland. He talks about people who often encounter owls, but it could be other animals.
It could be deer or raccoons or even clowns where they say, like, you know, I was driving stopped on the side of the road, saw this owl, and then a few hours were missing. All of a sudden I'm driving home and it's it's five a.m. or something.

(43:40):
And so I went to a hypnotherapist to try to recover the memories during that period. The hypnotherapist puts me into a relaxed condition and then says, Hey, I want you to try to go up to that owl that you saw on the side of the road and describe it to me.
So they do this in their consciousness while they're under hypnosis. And they say, Wait a second. The owl is not actually an owl. It's a gray alien.

(44:02):
So the implication here is that maybe the encounter was with a gray alien, but because they know how to manipulate consciousness, your memory was an owl.
So what is that? I mean, I don't know. I don't even know what to do with that because how do we trust any experience at this point?
Any memory is really an inference. It's in the present moment we're inferring that this thing happened in the way that we think we remembered it.

(44:23):
But we're dealing with advanced beings that can shape shift and even potentially manipulate our memory of them. Who knows what's actually going on.
And I think this could apply to going back to the question of psychedelics and these other realms. This is probably part of it too, is that we're in these other frequencies and manipulation of reality can occur in perhaps even different ways.
I love so much that you brought several of these things up. And I think this is a really great time to talk about this because consciousness and exploring it, whatever avenue listeners may do that in,

(44:58):
it's, I don't want to say dangerous, that's the word that's kind of coming up, but it should be approached with reverence and respect and something that I personally, I find it fascinating you don't have plant medicine in your history,
which tells me you just chose the path of wisdom, right? When you look at the different yoga, there's the bhakti and you definitely are on the path of knowledge and wisdom and that's admirable.

(45:24):
You know, that is not, not for everybody that takes a great commitment to consume the amount of knowledge that you have to reach what resonates is truth for you.
I think, you know, for me, in the beginning of much of my life and even through my addiction, you know, I had meth and heroin addiction almost a decade plus ago and went to prison and all those fun things but I never tried psychedelics.

(45:51):
I had no problem, you know, putting vial Lord knows what via needle into my arm, but I stayed away from psychedelics. I had never done any of them ever no mushrooms, no LSD, no, no nothing, barely even any cannabis, even cannabis I was like, Nope, not going to go there.
And there was kind of always at the time I perceived it to be this inherent fear of plant medicines and psychedelics in general and really just like leaving this reality. Because while I now obviously am a big proponent of plant medicines for you know people that are prepared and in safe settings and whatnot.

(46:25):
I really, really think that they need to be approached respectfully. And I realized that I had the kind of this like, I don't know deep inherent knowing and understanding before I even had consciousness that like I, I agreed chose I don't know I'm experiencing this realm right I'm
experiencing like this is what I'm experiencing right now regardless of what it means. This is where I am right now and going so deeply and intently to other realms like you got to be careful with that I feel like and that would kind of be my honest response you know and and advice to

(46:58):
listeners as you dive deep into consciousness like this goes as deep as you want it to go. This goes as far as you wanted to go dimensionally spiritually emotionally mentally and electrically physically financially like you can take this everywhere and nowhere all at once and so I just love so much that you mentioned
like there are quite a lot of accounts of the dualistic right like the positive and negative light and dark good bad whatever you want to call it just duality. And as we move and explore consciousness. We need to be mindful of that and also I really like that you.

(47:29):
I actually there's only been one time on my spiritual journey where I've actually really truly been with a brink of what felt like psychosis, and it was when I pondered what you said about memory. I had an ayahuasca journey and had some repressed childhood stuff come up and then kind of started working through
things and realized I don't remember like 90% of the first 10 to 15 years of my life. And as I started doing various methods to try and go in and like remember these things I was very clearly told by whatever it was who freaking knows my guide source my higher self like stop like you are not meant to go

(48:07):
there there's a reason you don't remember like you live in the now going back into your consciousness and trying to unweave these traumas and things you don't remember like you can do the healing work without having the memory.
And so that was a huge part of my consciousness journey and I realized the minute that question sank into my being of like, what even is reality, like, what is memory what is, what am I seeing right now like is this a screen is this a VR like is this something that some other

(48:36):
being is you know tricking me into and so another kind of just vulnerable share and also honest warning there for people like going down this journey is, you know, it, these are some of the real things that we get to right like the nature of reality and and memory especially
for me was was where it got really challenging to look at and to ponder.

(49:00):
Something that's really helped through this exploration for me because part of my addiction journey was actually delving into some of those darker spaces from kind of a negative entity sexual perspective and you know, the suck you by are like a real thing, you know, and it's actually a way

(49:25):
for these negative entities to drain us of our life force energy, and which is all of our sexual energy.
And it's an interesting journey because there is this dualistic like beauty and bliss of the universe.
And in order for that to know and experience itself, the opposite has to exist also. And while we navigate, you know, this consciousness journey, whether it's through plant medicine, whether it's through breath work, through research, through devotion, there are many paths to understanding oneself and finding the divine.

(50:10):
Like you said earlier, Mark, the underlying truth of the universe is unconditional love. And while there are tricksters and while there are negative entities out there, and deception is very real.
When we lean on our energetic senses, and the truth that we know inside of our hearts, we can tell very quickly. Once we develop that skill, what is of the light, and what is not, because anything that comes from the light resonates with that frequency of unconditional love, it can be felt.

(50:48):
There is a nurturing aspect to those entities. There is a frequency of service, being of service to the collective, to you, to whatever they are in touch with.
Emphasis on once you develop this skill.
Yes, you know,
You are aware of it.
Or aware of it. And, but even just from a conceptual basis, you can understand this by checking in with yourself and your body, and how you feel.

(51:11):
When you are in the presence of a positive entity, you feel safe, you feel this ability to expand to be in the resonant frequency of love.
The negative entities operate on the basis of the opposite of love, which is fear.
When we are interacting with something, and there's this weird cognitive dissonance, in that there is this seemingly beautiful being or entity or seemingly loving experience.

(51:46):
But for some reason, I'm feeling contracted.
I'm feeling closed off energetically. I'm not feeling like my cup is filling. I'm feeling like my cup is draining.
It's a very clear indication that you're dealing with something that is not of the light.
And so while we are exploring consciousness, and it can be really unnerving when we start pulling on the thread of like what even is reality, right?

(52:13):
If we can't trust our memories, if we can't trust our senses, if we can't trust, you know, what we are experiencing, what can we trust?
Well, the answer I would give would be love, like the energy, that frequency of unconditional love, that fundamental truth.
Because you know when you're operating with something that's there in that frequency, and you know when you're not.

(52:36):
And so learning to develop that skill is really useful in kind of navigating these different experiences.
It's great advice because I personally, my opinion is I don't feel qualified to deal with these other realms, at least right now.
Like I feel like I would need more training to even want to put myself in the situation.

(52:58):
So I don't like to give advice one way or the other with regard to anything in mystical experience or even psychedelics.
Other people know more about that. So I don't want to come across as saying don't do it or do it for sure, just because I'm not equipped to talk about that.
Like I said before, I do think there are probably people have had objectively positive experiences and some negative ones too.

(53:19):
And I also want to touch on what you said around the, let's say the sexual nature of these other realms, because it came up a lot in my research on contact.
It gets pretty scandalous, but it's like it's part of the reality. I don't fully understand it.
Like I think you're right that maybe there's something in our sexual energy that is appealing to these other dimensional beings.
And the story that came to mind as you were speaking, even though I mentioned a bunch in the book, there's a man named Matthew Roberts.

(53:44):
I believe his book is called Initiated or something like that, where he was in the military and had this experience where it was dreamlike, basically, where he was having a sexual encounter.
And the being took on the face of his ex-girlfriend, seemingly to make him feel more comfortable or something.
But then there were aspects that clearly were it was not a human or was something else. It was not his ex-girlfriend.

(54:07):
But it goes back this notion of shape shifting and screen memories or whatever it is.
And it was of a sexual nature and it had a very real quality to it. What is going on with these beings?
And how could it be that they could do this in a sense where it doesn't seem consensual sometimes?
Maybe it was consented to in another dimension or maybe before birth. And that's a different question.
But in a lot of the cases, it's just happening to the person seemingly.

(54:30):
So they have an ability, it seems, to swoop in.
And I wonder how that works. I mean, maybe if maybe that's where going back to our earlier discussion about ego and trauma and trying to get rid of the obstructions.
If there are things that we haven't cleared yet that they could latch on and kind of come in in those situations.
So it might show us if we end up having those kinds of experiences, show us that there's something within ourselves that could still be cleared, whereby we wouldn't attract that kind of energy in the future.

(54:56):
That's a really beautiful perspective. I know he has something he wants to add on this and then we can move on to our next topic.
But something that was coming up while you were talking. I love so much the very research driven and analytical and I'm going to swing us a little bit into the woo if we can call it that.
One of the ways that we've heard it described that really helped me was that all energy is sexual energy because sexual energy is the energy of creation.

(55:23):
Right. When you think of like all that is right.
I come from the premise I don't want to state this as a fact this is just what I've interpreted for my belief system of like everything was created right like it didn't just like
poof poof and it was there. So there was some point of creation though I do believe everything is infinite internal.
And it just really helped one of the spiritual teachers we follow teaches really heavily on this that like this gets kind of into Kundalini right like that Kundalini sexual energy and that like that.

(55:54):
That is the energy of enlightenment that is the energy of creation that is the energy of everything and when I heard that that really clicked for me about what you're saying of like there's something to this right like when we look at
let's say society for example music all the different things like the way that they they use loosely interpret it how you want the way that they kind of come after us is usually very sexual in nature right like just look at our world like it's sex cells right

(56:23):
like why is that and so I don't know if that resonates for you I'd love to hear your thoughts after you share what you want to share but I just wanted to give that for listeners if if that kind of helps or if that's something they want to go down the rabbit hole of looking into
that maybe potentially like everything came from that life force Kundalini sexual energy and that kind of is or or maybe it's the strongest of whatever types of energy we have and that's why they they latch on to that or the easiest to manipulate.

(56:51):
Yeah I mean sexual energy like you said it's the energy of creation and it is the from what I understand the expression of our link to source like that that energy that flows in the field comes through and is felt in our experience as sexual energy.

(57:17):
And so it's very valuable to all those who are ascending in different polarities.
For those of us who are ascending in the positive polarity.
It is about harnessing and holding that sexual energy using it with reverence and using it to create and birth what we were meant to create in this world.

(57:38):
That's why our creativity our work ethic our spirituality our connection to consciousness are all directly tied to how we utilize our sexual energy from the negative perspective and the negative polarity.
Gathering as much negative energy as possible from other people is a path to polarize in the negative direction because you are stealing their life force energy to be used for you.

(58:07):
I have experienced both ends of these through my journey and Tantra has been a deep area of study for me not not from an intellectual perspective but from an actual experiential perspective.
And from what I've understood about how energy exchanges work is that you were saying you know it seems there's this perception that it happens without consent.

(58:38):
Beings of the negative end of the negative polarization cannot take anything from somebody else without consent.
It breaks one of the fundamental laws of the universe.
And so that consent and and why they have the ability to shape shift and deceive and all these things that consent can be given without full knowledge of what we are consenting to.

(59:08):
And so once we consent or acquiesce with this entity and whatever way they come into our experience it kind of like opens up a door essentially in our energetic field.
And once that door has been opened until we make the choice and the clear like dictation to the universe I am closing this door that entity now has a direct link to us.

(59:37):
It's kind of like sovereignty.
Yeah it is kind of like sovereignty and it's interesting you start to see these fundamental truths and I'm sure you you've experienced this in your research is like I see it here I see it there I see it in the trees I see it in government like it's it's all a fractal nature of the same truth.
But when we're dealing with entities like this is very important to constantly be checking in with our consciousness and saying where do I have leaks where you know if if I'm having these negative entities coming in my dreams and coming in the psych attacks happening then how how can I start closing some of these doors.

(01:00:17):
Where where am I essentially leaking my energy and consenting to things that I may not actually be wanting to consent to.
And that could be, especially through looking at pornography or other engaging in other negative sexual behaviors from a lens of escaping and trading pleasure for energy.

(01:00:41):
So it's a very interesting dynamic to to go down and I could probably spend days talking about it but really the fundamental basis is that nothing can be taken from us without consent and we can always have the ability to revoke consent and there are many practices to do that.
So I would add with that says helps for listeners and then I'd love to hear your thoughts mark consent can be being in a certain frequency right like that's another way to look at it as like emotions right if I am not doing the inner work or having my consciousness or doing the clearing whatever that looks like and I'm going into anger right that is a lower frequency emotion.

(01:01:19):
And just by doing that I'm, though I don't know it because as humans we have such a limited perspective and understanding of spiritual laws and the universe and this infinite reality.
I am in universal law right potentially maybe I'm consenting by going into that lower frequency or by eating lower frequency foods or by consuming, like you saying pornography or whatever it is.

(01:01:42):
Maybe those are ways that we can set and that can go in a whole different track but I just want to really bring it back to, I think frequency works really well in this consciousness model for my brain of like, maybe different things we're doing to change our frequency is is consenting to going into that frequency
and what's allowed in that frequency realm or dimension.

(01:02:05):
All great points I don't, I don't know as much about all this.
So especially the idea that sexual energy might be the fundamental energy that's very fascinating.
Maybe your next book.
Who knows.
Maybe I'm gonna have to look into it because it does come up every one sex.
Yeah, I would really topics.
Yeah.
Did you have anything else you wanted to add?
Yeah.

(01:02:26):
The notion of consent because it does come up in my book on liberty and upside down liberty where it's like about volunteerism and the case that I make this is before I I learned more about common law.
I don't know much but I the basic idea please correct me if I'm wrong is that there are things we have consented to but don't realize we've consented and under volunteerism it's all about consent and it's typically contractual consent.

(01:02:49):
So we make an agreement that's mutually agreed upon where both parties sit down and they sign a contract.
They agree on all the terms and then they engage whereas with government that's not how it works.
It's imposed on you.
There's an implied consent.
There's a social contract quote unquote.
No one's ever seen what was said in the social contract.
It's just an abstraction.
We never signed it but there isn't there can be an consent that's not informed.

(01:03:11):
So you've consented to something without realizing what you consented to and that is a very strong point that there could be levels on which we do that maybe explicitly in some ways maybe energetically which could be the same thing as frequency frequency where it's like by being in a certain state we've consented or maybe on a subtle level
a subconscious level.
There's a part of us that wants the thing that's happening and we don't realize it and we then call it in.

(01:03:32):
So I'll just pause there.
That that is really powerful work right there to contemplate that question.
That was one of the biggest questions I had to look at was where where was I addicted to the chaos?
Where was I addicted to the suffering?
Where was I aligning with those experiences?
Something you said was about you know consent and yes you essentially got what my understanding is and we are we are babies in the space and it's not where we've chosen to fully dive in.

(01:04:00):
We're definitely exploring it but it is essentially especially with the birth certificate right?
Like your parents just kind of sign it and it's like what is this thing that I'm signing?
What does this mean?
What does this what is it?
It's a contract right?
It's a certificate.
It's a contract and so yeah you nailed that and I would love to transition.
I feel like this is a perfect time into talking about truth which is a very large and broad word but bringing it to this you know kind of notion with society and I think would this be your end to upside down Liberty book?

(01:04:29):
Is that where we're the one that we're going to?
Probably.
Probably.
Let's see where you take it.
Yeah I mean I'll be honest I had never heard the word voluntarism until I heard your talk which I'm realizing in the intro we got so excited to get into this.
We met at Music in Sky which was Alpha Vedic's event they recently put it on and we had the opportunity to watch you speak and it doesn't happen often.

(01:04:51):
It only happened twice that weekend and it was you and Bear Lando where we're like ha they get it.
There's just like a resonance when we're talking about consciousness and so so voluntarism I had never heard that word before your talk that day and I'm still not really sure I'm completely clear on it.
I mean I understand the basis of like consent and everything.

(01:05:13):
I would love generally if you would cover that but as well as just from a consciousness perspective like where are we like societally speaking let's just focus on the United States because that's where we are right now.
You know like how we got to where we are and I just look around it at our current state of government and our current state of yeah just societal structure and I mean I think the link is very direct to consciousness and I'm curious if you agree with that.

(01:05:42):
And what you've discovered as you've researched this.
Yeah part of the reason I wrote the book on liberty is that I wanted to tie political and economic theory which is voluntarism to consciousness because I didn't see those things brought together.
Let me explain what voluntarism means because I hadn't heard that term either until I started looking into political theory because starting in 2020 everyone was talking about politics.

(01:06:03):
Prior to that I had no interest.
That's the funny part is that when people hear me talking about politics that was it wasn't even on my radar I didn't know the difference between right and left.
I was so just in my own other world I didn't care.
And I landed on voluntarism as the ideal.
What's the ideal structure of setting up society such that we're in alignment with spiritual values.
That's basically what I was trying to look at.

(01:06:25):
How should we be organizing society and voluntarism is based on what's known as the non aggression principle which means that no person should initiate any form of aggression against another person's body or the property that they own.
It's called private property and that could be land.
It could be money.
It could be clothing anything that the person rightfully owns and aggression is physical violence fraud coercion theft.

(01:06:50):
You don't initiate any of those things against another person or their property.
But if someone initiates against you you have a right to self defense.
So that's not really aggression.
It's just you're acting in a form of defense.
That's voluntarism.
If you follow that it's voluntarism.
Everything that you do is a voluntary exchange rather than one in which aggression is being initiated.

(01:07:11):
So you need to have two consenting parties.
The problem with government the way it's done all over the world not just in the U.S. is that it's an implied consent.
And the government provides services to you that you did not hire them for explicitly.
If I want to hire a lawyer for something I would hire them and we'd sign a contract and we'd have all kinds of provisions for what the price is going to be and how to terminate the contract.

(01:07:34):
And we agree on it and we both sign it and then we're bound to that contract.
Doesn't work that way with government.
I mean arguably again maybe there are contracts for signing and don't realize it.
I haven't looked into that as much probably happens but we're not sitting down together with a service provider IE government is providing services.
It's providing military defense services road servicing courts all these things that provides super important things but it does it in a way with that's that's not in a fully voluntary fashion.

(01:08:00):
It's this implied consent.
That's the problem in the model that government currently runs under.
It's called statism where these there's a group of people that has special privileges basically and the thinking is the reason that the people defended even people like Thomas Hobbes like famous political theorists is that if we didn't have this body of governments then human beings are too irresponsible and war like and stupid to be able to handle themselves.

(01:08:23):
So their solution is paradoxical which is we're going to take a subset of people that we don't trust and are stupid and war like and put them in a position of unilateral decision making authority and somehow that's okay.
It's totally illogical and they say well it's okay because we're going to vote on it and and you're saying that we trust the people all of a sudden that you said you don't trust to actually run fair elections and you trust the people you didn't trust to actually elect the right people into power even if you didn't have if you did have fair elections.

(01:08:48):
The whole thing doesn't make sense logically speaking.
So voluntarism would be that every form of service you could imagine in society whether it's law services courts someone making food all of those would be done on a voluntary basis.
So what you call government services now that could be hired.
It could be a subscription model it could be all sorts of things within a free marketplace and that gets into Austrian economics which I talk about in the book.

(01:09:10):
Now quickly want to tie it to spirituality.
Why was I so drawn to this because if you look at the near death experiences often people have a life review 20 to 25% of the cases.
They relive their whole life.
They come back in their body their whole life's changed because they're like I became all of the people that I affected including I interviewed Danny and Brinkley from my podcast who's had multiple near death experiences and multiple life reviews.

(01:09:32):
So he felt like he felt what it was like to be in combat in Vietnam and to be the person that he killed in combat because he became that person in the life review.
He also became the children and felt what it was like to be the children who no longer had a father.
He felt the indirect effects.
He said the indirect effects he didn't feel quite as strongly but he felt them.
So he comes back in his body changes his whole life becomes a hospice volunteer.

(01:09:54):
He didn't know he was going to be in near death experiences or have a life review again which he did.
So he relived everything not just the Vietnam stuff but also what it was like to be in the hospice as the person dying to see what it felt like to be comforted by him through that dying person's eyes.
So he felt the good stuff as well.
Long story short.
What do the researchers say even Dr. Bruce Grayson from the University of Virginia people who come back from these life reviews.

(01:10:19):
They say that the golden rule which is that we should treat other people well because we're all interconnected treat others the way you want to be treated etc.
Which is in all the traditions all over the world.
That is beyond morality.
It's actually natural law.
The golden rule is built into the fabric of reality.
So if you believe what I just said golden rules built into the fabric of reality.
You look at the way we do government right now under statism.

(01:10:41):
It's not voluntarism.
There's implied consent social contracts.
We're not sitting down together in a mutually agreed upon contract.
Wait a second.
Is that the golden rule?
No.
Government the way we do it right now violates natural law.
It violates basic spiritual principles.
It's incompatible with spirituality.
That's the link to me.
So ideally and I don't know what I'm not saying we're going to do this tomorrow is to get back to the natural law where there's full consent because then we're in alignment with spiritual principles.

(01:11:09):
I mean that that right there like you nailed it.
Everything you said resonates 100% is true.
That's how we've experienced it.
That's what we've come to.
We we say you know God's law that may be a little more familiar to some listeners natural law.
God's law another way I've heard it worded that I really like is do no harm.
Right.

(01:11:30):
I just do no harm treat others way you want to be treated.
You know, there's different ways of wording it and that that really is like the premise and the foundation of everything.
Like if we are living from unconditional love and we do no harm we follow that what there's only one like that's the beauty of I just look at society and it's like it's so overwhelming to my nervous system in my mind like how many rules and laws and every place has different ones like it's just designed to keep us in chaos.

(01:11:57):
It's designed to keep our nervous systems overloaded.
I believe.
And it's really for our listeners like I want to bring this in and say hold on to this for hope because it's really encouraging that the solution right is one one thing do no harm right just treat others the way you want to be treated and remembering and cultivating and doing everything in your power every day to return to that natural state of unconditional love.

(01:12:26):
Whatever that looks like for you is plethora of ways there's no right way.
And you just you nailed it with the society that we live in today like when I heard you say that I think that was in part of your speech of just like government as it is is in violation of natural law.
You know ever since I was a small child I've just always felt this is deep deep disresonance of government and of just the system in general everything to do with it and so of course I picked a life that put me in incarceration right that confronted me with that real quick that was literally the thing that I needed to wake me up to to the system and to what was really going on because it's the

(01:13:06):
most I feel incarceration like violation of natural law right like you are imprisoning someone else is being body consciousness whatever whatever it is it you know against their will and and that's like the ultimate violation I feel and your right government is right up there in in these violations of
I didn't consent I mean did you did you sit down and have a conversation because I missed that meeting I guess I just didn't get the invite.

(01:13:32):
I was still sleeping.
When I say sleeping I mean unconscious and it's interesting like when you have consciousness part of the journey is taking your power back and finding sovereignty in the sense of like oh I am the creator expressing itself and I have power over my own life I'm not a victim and I can make changes to return to this natural state of love and this natural

(01:14:00):
natural experience without waiting for the world to change right because the world's never gonna change until we change it from an individual perspective we are all making the change within our self and when we make that change in our consciousness and what we allow in our field that then creates a new space
and what you were sharing about these experiences in terms of like near death and understanding other people's perspectives it makes complete sense because from what I had the opportunity to experience with that first LSD trip and experiencing what most people call oneness

(01:14:40):
which is this fundamental knowing and just this experience that words cannot describe.
Cosmic communion.
Cosmic communion would be the closest or oneness and it really is just the knowing and embodiment that we are not separate that we are all this experience of consciousness like you said the whirlpools in the flow of the stream.

(01:15:09):
Yes we are all connected by the stream and thus our experiences.
And our energies are connected.
And that allows us to really understand and empathize like.
Okay what I do affects other people not in the sense of oh cause and effect but we are the same thing.

(01:15:33):
And so what I bring into the field is bringing that into the field of the other person and when we live from a state of knowing this and being conscious to this which is just being in a state of unconditional love it's very natural to just do no harm.
And it's easy it flows it's not a decision that we have to unravel of like oh I need to put my life back together and destroy everything that we know and rebuild it and create a new system.

(01:16:06):
The system is the issue we just have to live from our hearts and love one another.
One of the biggest things that I this was like the paradigm shift for me around this was around when we look at like society right and all we're talking about and I think this is just like the Hail Mary for me when we talk about truth or anything

(01:16:28):
Sovereignty or with government or consciousness is it kind of comes back to this fundamental argument people are always like well that all sounds lovely and fine right but like what about this or murderers or that or what are we going to do with all the
criminals or we need government because it would be chaos we need police because then people would rob and steal everything and what Eric was saying and your analogy of the streams and the water.

(01:16:50):
We don't have a insert blank we don't have a criminal problem we don't have an anything problem the problem is consciousness because when you inherently know and understand that you're a war pool just like he's a war pool just like every single thing is a
war pool in the same river why would you poison another war pool why would you theoretically you can't kill a war pool but stick with me on this analogy why would you kill another war pool why would you steal from another war pool you're just stealing from yourself.

(01:17:18):
And so like that that was the paradigm shifting moment for me when I kind of around a lot of the truth or in sovereignty stuff was like this is great and it's really just a consciousness problem because no one really remembers the inherent nature of unconditional love and that we're all connected.
However that is that stream of consciousness however you perceive it and when you remember that you would never do harm again.

(01:17:41):
Right like it's it's that's just the way we live our life now it's the one and only lots the one and only rule do no harm and immediately.
A really good analogy of this that we do is you know when we are out.
Not in like the greater public but like out in the middle of nowhere right and there's a red stoplight or stop sign and there's no one else there we drive through it and we visibly and out loud we drive through it.

(01:18:03):
And out loud we look to each other and we say do no harm and it's not in like a mockery or an ego sense or any of that it's like a genuine and authentic like I'm in the middle of nowhere.
There's no one being harmed by this silly red light that society has told me like I need to stop that.
So that's just kind of like one analogy but it really just comes back to several of the the spiritual teachers we follow they all say the exact same thing like we have a consciousness problem because people don't remember their war pool.

(01:18:30):
And so they're out doing name anything you want to all these other world pools not understanding you're poisoning our freaking river like literally and figuratively and energetically right you're you're poisoning the river that you live in.
And so I'm curious your thoughts on that and that perspective of like yeah once you get that consciousness and remember that inherent nature of the world pools in the rivers it's kind of just like you said natural law do no harm.

(01:18:56):
I totally agree I talked about this in my books including Liberty book that a consciousness shift is the most important thing more so than anything structural because we'll behave differently.
And in a freer society people will behave more honorably if they have a different consciousness so they go together that go moving to a freer society and having a higher consciousness are they move in tandem.

(01:19:18):
A caveat with voluntarism and I have a chapter on this in the book because people say well if you didn't have the government structured how would the rose get built how would you have court systems and so forth.
All of those things can exist because human beings provide those services you don't need them to be in a protected structure called government in order to provide them.
That's the key.
And actually when you have a free marketplace you have competition so you have actually have positive incentives where you want to out do the other competition to actually provide the best service.

(01:19:43):
Whereas you have perverse incentives in government where sometimes if you do poorly you can get more money.
So let's say the education system is doing really poorly and maybe you want to do poorly because then you can say look we need more money for the education system completely inverted.
Isn't that whack like totally crazy to me.
They would say the rebuttal would be well we need to have that structure there because we wouldn't be able to handle ourselves.

(01:20:05):
Maybe and it's I'm not trying to describe a utopia I mean voluntarism is not a perfect society just like the government right now isn't perfect but it's least in alignment with natural law.
So yeah I agree that's where we have to head but it starts with a consciousness shift to and with the consciousness shift people will appreciate liberty more inherently and they won't be as tolerant of what's going on currently.

(01:20:28):
We agree completely.
And I feel like this is the perfect segue into our third and final kind of umbrella topic here of love because you know you said in your end to upside down liberty book that you talk a lot about this need for a consciousness shift.
And I'm just going to you know plug here on this show.

(01:20:50):
Personally, at least what we are put on this planet to believe that one of the potentially most beneficial and quick ways to do that is through love, right is through remembering having that consciousness shift into that unconditional state of love.
And so I would love to hear thoughts so much on on that specifically and where love and that unconditional love and kind of that oneness could potentially tie into that consciousness shift like do you think that's a viable solution for us as a species right now to get out of where we're at.

(01:21:24):
I do think that is critical. And then we get into definitions because in some ways, love is truth.
They're sort of synonymous because what's the truth about the nature of reality. It's that we're part of a consciousness that's made of love so if we move towards truth we're inherently going to be pulled towards love.

(01:21:46):
And it's a lot of pathways and it's an upstreaming us in the same direction. And there's also a caveat I want to raise here because and it goes back to the non aggression principle of you don't do harm but there is a right to self defense.
So harm is being done to someone then it would be irresponsible to allow that harm to continue even if it requires aggression quote unquote against another party.

(01:22:08):
So it's like this it's this nuance compassion is that compassion is always underlying it but then we've got to be tough also to not allow the evil just to take over because evil does exist and it will initiate harm.
So there's a there can be a tendency if gone too far of complacency and passivity of I'm just not going to do anything I'm just going to sit in a state of love but that's not loving ultimately.

(01:22:33):
So we understand the truth of what love actually means that might mean protecting and that might mean having to be aggressive and having to get off the couch.
So it's like yes I agree with you that we have to understand love we have to understand the truth that's embedded within that like what's the truth about the nature of reality and then we can apply our compassion appropriately.
You nailed it and I'm so glad that you brought that up because it's something we talk about a lot on this show is returning to love does not always mean returning to relationship talking to the person giving them what they want we did a really profound episode on this where we went really deep into the fundamental of like rewiring what love even is defining what love is and understanding that love is not just like sitting there and you know praying in peace and being kind to everyone and that's a part of it and it's more complex.

(01:23:20):
It's more complex than that like this is a very complex infinite multi dimensional quantum universe and so to make love so so simple like it's just more complex than that and agree with you completely that like sometimes love is you know if defending like if if and I don't like to use this word but we're going to use it for the context of this
conversation and negative entity whatever that is you know another human being whatever is coming at your family right like the loving thing under natural law right the one law we talked about to do would be to defend against that aggression right you're not just going to stand there and say oh I'm all loving like

(01:23:56):
and so I'm just going to let you like harm me and my family right like that's that that would be absurd and so yeah I love that you brought that up and I don't know if you have anything you want to add here but I completely agree with you that we have to be really careful as we move into that like unconditional love I think a lot about and this word always comes to me I think a lot about grace and something that's deeply manifested in my life and divine grace which is really just that like expression of

(01:24:25):
unconditional love regardless of and in the face of and you know it's it's all encompassing and sometimes grace is not very fun right like for example I recently was very clearly told in every single way possible signs on the side of the road people in my life voices in my head to slow down and I didn't listen and then after about two months of continued and repeated like you need to slow down like a good

(01:24:54):
very dear friend literally telling me like sources telling me like it's time it's time for us like as a group to slow down I broke my foot well guess what I slowed down because I didn't have a choice anymore and it was a very difficult and emotional
and emotional chemical process for me and through it I really came to an even deeper you know inner standing of grace and that like that unconditional love from that river from source from light from God creator whatever you call it doesn't always look like giving me everything I want and winning the lottery and all the money and all the things in a picture perfect life right like love is much more complex and so thank you for bringing that up and and reminding our listeners you know to be careful there you know with

(01:25:36):
the assumptions and presumptions and beliefs around what love looks like you know I have a lot in my sphere especially in my family system I am told constantly like you don't love me because you're not doing x thing right and there's this like identity and attachment to love looks like this like if you were a loving insert blank you would be doing x
mind and you wouldn't do that and it's just that's just so simple minded right for something that's so complex I love so much that you you say that that love isn't passive because it's a very deep fallacy that that people can fall into in saying like love just means I have to completely separate from all the experiences

(01:26:18):
and just be in the state of love and that will through osmosis change the world yes and there is an active part we embody love and then we apply that love and sometimes that looks like a battle sometimes it's a war for consciousness that we are experiencing on this planet right now and so it takes strength and the ability to fight for love

(01:26:47):
as the fear state is fighting for control with fear you look at Archangel Michael as a depiction of this warrior of you know source or the creator and fighting the negative entity through and with love part of the journey that we've been on consciously is learning to relate with one another consciously

(01:27:14):
and learning how to love one another and that consciousness shift that you mentioned earlier for us and what it's looked like in our life is learning how to start with our relationships and you know it started with our romantic partnership and then it started about started with developing a conscious community and then interacting with our

(01:27:36):
our families and our our friends in different ways and learning how to shift consciousness by learning to love each other consciously and I'm curious to know in your experience what has that consciousness shift look like for you you know in your path in your journey and also how it shows up and manifest and how you interact with other people now

(01:28:05):
you know now that you've you've experienced consciousness I I'm wary to say attain consciousness because I believe it's a frequency that we tap into and in and out of depending on what we're experiencing but yeah how how has it affected your relationship with yourself with those around you
I would say it's affected it in a big way because I have a new context for how to think about life and what a human being is so when I encounter someone I see them as a vessel of consciousness that's having a certain type of experience and learning something and playing a role here so it is less

(01:28:44):
less accusatory I would say that's not to say that I'm not critical of people but it's more understanding that everyone's on a journey and we're we're imperfect in different ways and working through things so I'm perhaps more understanding and if someone is in a state that I don't like rather than getting really upset about it I just kind of navigate around it rather than want to fight it too much or try to have to

(01:29:07):
to rectify it so I'm I'm much more drawn toward just finding people on the same wavelength basically and that's shifted so I'm not trying to force things quite as much as I used to and I think I see a depth of a human being in a new way also understanding that we're not just biological machines that were layered multi-dimensional

(01:29:33):
likely multi-lifetime beings then it's a different interaction to have with someone to realize that level of depth even though we might just see one thing there's a new level of appreciation when encountering another person
I the word that kept coming through while you were talking those beautiful is empathy right consciousness and gaining becoming aware of attaining the frequency I don't freaking know y'all like who knows you put whatever words make sense for you this is the one field where I don't think there really is like one right answer

(01:30:06):
but attaining that for me it was a really big experience of empathy and that sounds similar to what you were describing correct me if I'm wrong mark but I'm able to look at people most of the time right I'm human like I have reactions I've patterns and conditioning what I call the ego
I'm able to look at people much more and really just feel that empathy and compassion of like you are having an experience of consciousness for most people that you're not aware you're having or you're not consciously having which now we're going to get muddled in the words but stay with me I think y'all know what I mean right like

(01:30:45):
I'm not a little half joke there but you really start to have a lot of compassion and empathy for people when you can see it from the outside lens of this is so much bigger when we look at the universe and you know like you said like multiple lives past lives all the multi dimensional all these
this is so much bigger than the person who just cut you off in traffic you know like it was always easier for me growing up I always really easily found the perspective of like maybe that person is on the way to a dying family member you know or the person that's rude to

(01:31:19):
I this is another you know empathy and grace experience you know when my father passed it was very traumatic very sudden and very young and it was really hard on me is what started my consciousness journey actually three and a half years ago and there was a period there where I was a complete asshole to everyone in my life people in the grocery store
people on the phone like God forbid I had to call utility like I was just a miserable person and now I'm able through that experience and also just through my life and consciousness I'm able to just look at the world a lot less judgmentally and just say you know it's all just this

(01:31:55):
this work is board of consciousness and just like these billions of little sparks of consciousness trying to figure out kind of running around half of them don't even know they're they're in this experience you know a bunch of us are trying to figure it out and I think when we can fundamentally agree on that that's a really great starting
place right like which leads me into you know something I think you and I had had said in text messages of like the more you learn like the less you know like that's just like I feel like the universal truth of consciousness but I do want to ask you what do you feel like some of the kind of really key things that you've learned through all of these things right we've

(01:32:33):
dealt into extra extra extra terrestrial contact I can't say that word today consciousness love plant medicine truth sovereignty voluntarism as you walk to this journey and something I'm really deeply coming to love and respect about you it's one of my favorite things is that you're able to see
and explore and tie in consciousness to everything because consciousness is everything it's in everything and so as you've explored that what have you learned like what are some of the key things you would like to share with our listeners that you feel like have had the most impact

(01:33:06):
I'm glad you pointed out the consciousness piece because it's it's a metaphysical framework anything we explore any any domain of curiosity exists within a certain reality and we have we have assumptions about what that reality is whether they're right or wrong we have them and sometimes we don't acknowledge what those assumptions are

(01:33:27):
so what I've tried to do in my work since I started with consciousness is apply that framework and say look there's all this stuff politically and economically that's problematic and it's in the wrong framework so if we put it in a different container then it's going to make sense
so that's how I like to think about any domain of exploration and another is around just basic logic because I'm seeing it over and over again just fallacies and logic and one that is top of mind right now has to do with coming up with causation when encountering observations and then jumping to a causal model

(01:34:02):
then thinking that's the model and then any new observations are fit and forced into that model versus coming up with other causal explanations I'll give one example and I talked about this in the medicine book a bunch of people go to a party and they get sick with similar symptoms
and then you conclude well that's because I caught something there was a microscopic organism that jumped from one person to the other and it was causing all this sort of stuff in my body and getting inside my cells and replicating and all this all the stuff which no one's ever seen that whole movie

(01:34:34):
happened it's like an animation that we create but it's a hypothesis it's a great one but there are million other reasons we could come up with like what if there was a toxin in the air that was making everyone sick what if there were a lot of EMS what if there were a common food poisoning
what if there was a similar emotional shock psychologically people were exposed to something and they ended up with the same symptoms the point is there are many models that you could come up with but typically we get stuck in one model and then we end up saying that's the way it works and then anything we observe we just force it into that

(01:35:04):
same thing with consciousness consciousness is correlated with brain activity this part of the brain lights up and then you have this kind of conscious experience you damage this part of the brain you can't see as well
okay the brains correlated with consciousness therefore the brain creates consciousness one possibility it's not necessarily true what if the brains and antenna if you damage the antenna then you have the same issues so you can't just say the brain creates consciousness maybe the brain receives consciousness where it's a filtering mechanism

(01:35:32):
there are a lot of causal explanations so this it's a really important thing reading any news article now I'm like they observe something and then they tell us this is why it happened but there are a lot of other reasons this could have happened
politically scientifically it's really important to look at the logic of causation
that was a really beautiful answer that's really great advice mark thank you for sharing that that definitely is and makes me think of like a lot of Alex X work and the way he talks about things and germ theory and and

(01:36:02):
it's trying to introduce your theory yeah yeah and yeah it just you know we we live in a society right now that is really stuck in a pattern and you know so many people we have countless conversations because we have you know really hopeful and and big dreams and ideal idealistic
dreams of how humanity gets out of this like we're a team humanity and we really think we can turn this around and people always ask us you know like how how are we going to get out of this but but but and it's like

(01:36:32):
it starts with you it starts with changing your thinking it starts with breaking these patterns that you were ingrained in indoctrinated in the person before you was ingrained indoctrinated in question everything that is like my number one piece of consciousness right like question everything and just coming back to that same inherent
foundation of love of unconditional love and of you know remembering right that connection to whatever that really mystical magical beautiful river is

(01:37:02):
I would love I would love if you could share with our listeners where they can connect with you all of the details on all of your books and and socials and things and I know you've got a new book coming which we are not going to spoil but you know keeping our eyes out for that and anything you'd like to share and connect with listeners on

(01:37:24):
well first thank you so much for having me really enjoy the conversation if your audience is interested in learning more my website is a good place to start it has all the basic info my website is just my name it's mark gober.com
all of my books are on Amazon and they're in hard copy Kindle and audible format. I read all the audibles myself and it's an end upside down thinking living Liberty contact reset medicine and then the mystery book that's coming out soon.

(01:37:55):
Hopefully September ish 2024 we'll see fall 2024 and my podcast series where is my mind, which is about the nature of consciousness the idea that maybe consciousness is not produced by the brain and the scientific evidence of that people who have had direct experiences.
It was produced with blue duck media and people still listen to it today even though it's a few years old.

(01:38:17):
We will definitely put all that in the show notes. I'm just going to keep advocating over here for an end to upside down love.
I don't know. I think that that'd be a really cool, a really cool thing to hear you research and talk about and getting deeper into that unconditional love and you know just we always close off and give our listeners a reminder that whatever you do you know take that pause is this in line with that one universal truth do no harm is this in line with unconditional

(01:38:44):
love. You know like Eric was saying like does this does this make me feel contracted or does it make me feel expanded and like you were saying, being really mindful of the logic that we have been indoctrinated into and encouraged to follow along with of, well, it's just this way and so this is just the way it is, or also to the thinking of like you know we're we're
never going to get out of this because I don't know. I think we will and as being as team humanities we are I think that with love as a guiding force and natural law of do no harm as a guiding force.

(01:39:15):
I think we can get there get there beautifully and get there really fast so thank you for being here Mark thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for all that you are and the clear and undeniable amount of work that you have put into research and
attaining all of this different information to sink it down into six beautiful books that can really help those of us who are just on that same exploration path.

(01:39:42):
Yes, thank you so much Mark. You know, just by the very fact that we're here today having this conversation.
I know that we are getting out of this. I know that this new world is happening because we are coming together and we're creating it. If it weren't going to happen, then we wouldn't be here during this time during this transition of the planet and so thank you for all that you do.

(01:40:10):
You know, wisdom teachers are so important. They play a very instrumental role in the puzzle piece. I'd say you're kind of like the edge or a corner piece, right? Mark, go over the corner piece. You should quite that.
Given giving that framework for us all to start filling in the puzzles because had it not been for our spiritual teacher and for many of the other wisdom teachers that are out there that did the legwork of that research that tireless like drive to really sit with and understand the research and

(01:40:48):
play and then put that information down into a book that someone can read and absorb years worth of knowledge in the span of a week or a day or a month, you know, that then empowers them to catapult their experience in their consciousness from, you know, lower frequency to a higher frequency at a very fast rate.

(01:41:14):
And now that person can come and airdrop in what they were meant to bring into this world without having to go through those years of learning and deciphering, right? So thank you so much for what you do because you're empowering everybody else to start filling in the inside of the puzzle.
Thank you so much for saying that. And I'm really glad we met at Music in Sky. I feel so fortunate that we're connected now.

(01:41:41):
Absolutely. I'm sure we'll remain connected, maybe be living in community together someday. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows?

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