Episode 148 - The Dark Origins of Christmas Mythology and Monsters - Lunatics Radio Hour

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Lunatics Radio Hourpodcast.
I am Abbey Brinker sitting herewith Alan Kudan.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Today this is I don't know the fourth or fifth time
that we have a holiday horrorthemed series to close out the
year.
Really, we've done this a fewtimes before.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
No way.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
But we are.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
No, we did Krampus.
Yeah, do we do something onThanksgiving?

Speaker 1 (00:42):
No, we've done Krampus, we have done the
History of Yule with MirandaWarzell.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Our best episode ever .

Speaker 1 (00:49):
I really like that one, and we also did the History
of Holiday Horror generally.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Wait.
So what the fuck is this?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
So this is going to be a deeper dive into some of
those topics, but it also isgoing to skew a little bit
differently because of course Idon't want to bomb everyone with
the same exact information.
So we're going to get into someChristmas creatures and
different traditions and historythat we haven't talked about
before and revisit some of thethings that we have, but in kind
of greater detail and with moreresearch.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Wow, I had no idea.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
You never do.
Celebrations, feasts andfestivals around December and
January date back thousands ofyears and while there is a
tremendous variety when it comesto the type, focus and
traditions, there are a fewunifying factors.
Today, we're going to talkabout the spooky creatures,
traditions and horror tropesfrom various religions, regions

(01:41):
and beliefs that span the globe,from the history of Yule to
Krampus and Belschnickel andBafana.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Belschnickel.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Today we are talking about the vast and fascinating
history of holiday horror.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I thought Belschnickel was made up for the
Office.
That is incorrect.
So Belschnickel's real, correct, wow.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Before I explain all about Belschnickel to you, let
us cite our sources.
We used a Smithsonian Magazinearticle by Kate Eschner why Do
People Tell Ghost Stories onChristmas.
A BBC article by ClemencyBurton-Hill when Christmas
Carols Were Banned.
An All Things Interestingarticle by Morgan Dunn, the
Story of Yule, the Raucous PaganCelebration of Winter that

(02:19):
Inspired Christmas.
An article called the Legend ofLa Bafana by Deborah Timmish on
italiarailcom.
Santa Claus Real Origins andLegends on historycom.
An English Heritage article byTom Moriarty, the History of
Father Christmas.
An Atlas Obscura.
Article by Sarah ElizabethTroop, the Monsters of Christmas
.
And a Smithsonian Magazinearticle by Colin Dickey a plead

(02:42):
to resurrect the Christmastradition of telling ghost
stories.
To start things off, we need togo back to the most basic
reason why this time of year hasbecome what it is today.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Consumerism.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
The biblical origins of Christmas are commonly
understood the story of thebirth of Jesus but we're not
going to actually talk aboutthat much today.
Long before Christianity,ancient Germanic, pagans and
Vikings celebrated Yule in thewinter solstice.
At that time, this holiday hadno religious affiliation, only
the celebration of the solarevent.
That being said, many of theancient traditions are still

(03:16):
celebrated today.
Skinned as a Christian holiday,Yule is typically celebrated on
the 21st of December, theshortest day and the longest
night of the year in thenorthern hemisphere.
That's the winter solstice,December, the shortest day and
the longest night of the year inthe Northern Hemisphere.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
That's the winter solstice.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
It's the day when the pendulum swings back, going
forward.
Each day will be lighter for alittle bit longer.
It's the perfect transitionbetween the dark and the light
half of the year and, obviously,historically right.
This was incredibly importantto people who relied on farming
and foraging and crops and solarcharging building their own
structures and homes.

(03:49):
Right Before there was a lot ofmodern conveniences.
The movements of the sun andthe seasons and the weather were
everything to them.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
I understand.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Historically, solar celebrations can be traced back
thousands of years, especiallyaround this time, and across
hundreds of cultures.
We've talked about some of themon this podcast, but Yule is
certainly one of the mostimportant to understanding the
dark and complicated roots offestivals timed at the end of
December, similar to Samhain,which is the episode with

(04:18):
Miranda Warzel which is the rootof what is now Halloween, but
another pagan holiday.
During Yule, the ancientGermanic people believed that
magical forces and powers werestronger than usual.
They also believed, similar toHalloween and Samhain, that the
veil between the living and thedead was thinner.
So in some cases Yule had thisalmost spooky, dark spiritual

(04:42):
vibe to it.
As Christianity began to spreadacross Europe, yuletide and
other pagan festivals wereeither adopted or stamped out
entirely.
We can trace the word Yule andunderstand it to mean something
very similar to celebration orfestival.
I'm going to quote from MorganDunn's All Things Interesting
article Quote the earliestmention of Yule is found in the

(05:16):
work of a chronicler andprolific historian called Bede,
an English monk who is Quotenoting that the old pagan
calendar combined the Romanmonths of December and January
into a single period calledGaiuli.
He wrote the months of Gaiuliderive their name from the day
when the sun turns back andbegins to increase.
In other words, this doublemonth was built around the
winter solstice, the time ofyear when daylight, which

(05:38):
decreases steadily during thewinter, starts to increase again
.
In Nordic regions, people wouldbring trees into their homes
and decorate them with candlesor orb-like objects to represent
the sun.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
But why?

Speaker 1 (05:50):
Because they were worshiping the sun, like the
idea was.
This is we've made it throughthe absolute coldest, darkest
time of the year.
Now the sun is returning againand we want to worship the sun
so that it will come back, and alot of these cultures too.
It was a heavy like God worshipLike.
Odin is very heavily worshippedaround this time.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
He's not associated with trees, is he?

Speaker 1 (06:11):
No, he's associated with this time of year.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
He becomes essentially Father Christmas for
a long time, and then SantaClaus, spoilers.
We're getting ahead ofourselves.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Some guy chewed me out on Reddit because of that
what?
Some guy chewed me out onReddit because of that what you
got?

Speaker 1 (06:23):
into a fight with someone on Reddit.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
Sure did.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Recently this happened.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
No, this was back when I was reading Krampus.
Oh, they're asking for anyhistorical texts that
equivocates Odin with Santa.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
And a full disclaimer said that this is not a
historical text by any means.
This is 100% a work of fiction,but it does have a connection,
a very strong connection,between Norse mythology and what
the fuck is Santa mythologycalled.
And then he got real, real madbecause you know, it wasn't a

(07:00):
historical text.
I could not have been moreclear though.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Ancient practices of the Yule log were even more
poetic, with each sparkrepresenting a baby animal meant
to be born in the spring.
The idea of Christmas elveswere invented in the US in the
19th century.
There's nothing really historicabout them and they also don't
really have any clear ties topagan tradition or any religious
lore.
However, the Nordic housesprites, or Nysa or Nysa, were a

(07:26):
huge part of the Yulecelebration that never made its
way over to America.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Are they related to candy elves?
What's a?

Speaker 1 (07:32):
candy elf.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I don't know, but we just watched a movie about them.
We did.
Yeah, remember the organizationkilled all the candy elves in
Red Snow.
No, you weren't payingattention at all.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I blocked that part out.
It snow.
No, you weren't payingattention at all.
I blocked that part out.
It's not time to talk about redsnow yet.
Alan, the house spirits wereknown to come out at yule time
and they sought offerings,mainly of porridge, to keep them
happy.
If they were not satisfied,they would punish the residents
of the house, where they dwelledwith pranks and tricks, and
this is something we're going totalk a little bit later in the
outline.
A little bit more aboutcreatures and monsters around

(08:02):
christmas, and this is such arecurring theme.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
There is a movie about this exactly, called
there's Something in the Barn.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Alan's done a lot of holiday horror watching.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
I have when there is a.
Do they call it an elf or agnome?
It's one or the other.
They look like the verystereotypical garden gnome with
the little red cap.
I think it's an elf, though Ithink that's what they call.
It takes place in norway.
You have to do all these thingsto.
There's a very, very, uh rigidset of rules that you have to

(08:34):
follow to keep your your barnelf yeah, your barn elf happy,
okay, and then he'll do likelittle things and help out
around your farm.
But if you don't do the things,then he'll cause all sorts of
mischief and like, if you reallyfuck up, like you forget to
leave out his Christmas porridge, then you know he might bring
out the chainsaw.

(08:54):
It's always fun when you're,you know, watching movies and
then you go back and actuallylearn that it was a bit
researched.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
That's the whole point of this podcast.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Well, maybe, but you know it's fun yeah it's very fun
, I agree.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
So everyone check out , there's Something in the Barn,
it's great.
In the 19th century, the Nysadeveloped into gift givers and
they are often portrayed to besimilar to Santa in that way,
bringing holiday gifts to familymembers.
But dating back even before itwas believed that Nysa brought
your holiday presents, theNordics believed that the Yule
goat would deliver them.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
The Yule goat.
Yes, what does the Yule goatlook like?

Speaker 1 (09:31):
So the Yule goat would be sort of men who would
dress up as this you know goatand walk through villages and
towns and they would sing andperform skits.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Skits.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, which of course we're also going to talk about
a lot of different examples ofthis from many different
cultures.
But to set the scene, beforeChristmas not even became
Christian, but before really itbecame so commercial very, very
recently, like in the last 200years, it was a raucous even
again.
Even throughout Christianity,christmas celebrations all the

(10:03):
way from pagan times up to the1700s were like incredibly
raucous drunk festivals ofeating and drinking and having
sex and pranking people anddoing crazy shit in the street
and it gets, you know, evenwilder from there in some cases.
But that was really the vibe,so much that all of our cromwell

(10:24):
banned christmas celebrationsin england because they it was
just like known of being thislike shit show.
It was just like that.
It was almost like the purge.
It was like when everybody justgoes out and does whatever
primal, primitive shit that theywant to do and then amazon came
around that's right andeverything changed yeah, no one
goes out anymore so we're goingto talk a lot about that
evolution today and a lot ofother versions of what I'm

(10:45):
saying, but I just wanted to setthe scene a little.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
I mean, what Are you really going to go like out to
buy dish soap?

Speaker 1 (10:51):
No, You're going to get it delivered in two days or
less.
So many people believe that theYule goat is derived from
either Thor, who is known forhis goat drawn chariot, or from
the ancient harvest traditions.
This lore is especiallyprominent in Sweden, and there's
actually a city in Sweden thatbuilds this very, very large
goat in the town a Yule Goatevery year.

(11:11):
Since it was built in the 1960s, it's been burned down 37 times
.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Okay, abby, yeah.
What are the names of Thor'sgoats?

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Billy Nope, bobby Nope, joey Close and goats Billy
Nope.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Bobby, nope, joey Close and Ashley.
Ashley, it's Snarler andGrinder.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Snarler and Grinder.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Snarler.
Is that real?
Yeah, wow, what do?

Speaker 1 (11:34):
they do, what's their vibe?

Speaker 2 (11:37):
They pull his chariot and one has a broken leg.
Okay, actually, they have kindof a tough, tough life because
every night Thor slays themJesus, and eats them.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
But does not crack the bones for the marrow, okay.
He just leaves all the bones ina nice little pile, okay.
And then come dawn theyregenerate, put themselves back
together and then he's got newgoats and these goats can fly,
which is great because it pullshis cherry through the sky.
But then fucking theolzy comesalong and loki tricks him into

(12:13):
cracking open one of the thebones to suck the marrow and
he's like all sorry and shit.
But now he's now one of thegoats has a broken leg forever
wow yeah it's sad, it's prettysad.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
It's horrifying, especially for the's horrifying.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Especially for the goats.
Like, even with the broken leg,they're still going to
regenerate now forever and justget eaten every single day.
That sucks by their one guythat takes care of them.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
That's pretty shitty.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
It's pretty shitty.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
The Vikings celebrated Yule in their own way
, quoting again from the AllThings Interesting article.
Quote the rites, ceremonies andfestivities of Yule were rife
with references to importantgods of the old Norse and
Germanic pantheons, mostsignificantly Odin, one of whose
names was Jolnir, whichindicates a connection to the
holiday of Jol or Yule.

(12:56):
To ancient Vikings and Goths,the period prior to Yuletide was
a time of heightenedsupernatural activity.
Undead creatures, called adragor, wandered the earth,
magic was more potent and Odinhimself led a ghostly wild hunt
across the night sky.
To appease restless spirits andgods alike, the Vikings held
ceremonies that includedsacrifices of various plants,

(13:18):
animals and beverages.
End quote the celebrationstypically kicked off with
Mother's Night, which includedthe sacrifice of a boar to the
goddess Freya and her brotherFreyr.
Before tasting the meat, vikingmen would put their hands on
the animal and swear oaths thatranged from very serious to very
, very absurd and outrageous.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
What's an example of the absurd and outrageous.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Like I hope, my hair goes pink next year.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
And everyone just kind of looks at you with blank
stares.
It's like you can do better.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
This oath swearing can be traced to modern day New
Year's resolutions.
No, I mean, I think everyonewas so drunk because this was
such a crazy festival that theyjust went for it.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay, let me rephrase .
If you had to make an oath onthe goat, on the boar, excuse me
what would your oath be?
That's private board on theboard, not the goat.
What would you?
What would?

Speaker 1 (14:05):
your oath be that's private, you have to do it in
front of everybody, I would say.
I hope everybody has a help,happy and healthy new year.
There have been some claimsthat human sacrifice was also
part of yule celebrations andthis is actually a bit harder to
confirm because many have triedto stamp out pagan festivals
over the years so they had thekind of this like unfair, bad
reputation, right Like whenChristianity came they would be

(14:26):
like oh, this is so horrible,these traditions, and violent,
which wasn't always the case.
So it's a bit hard to parse outtotally accurately, but most, I
think historians, or a lot ofhistorians, speculate that there
was certainly some of that.
Also, as you might have guessed,evergreen trees were a big part
of Yule celebrations.
Bonfires were intended to keepthe darkness away until the

(14:49):
return of light in the warmermonths.
Similar to what we alreadydiscussed with evergreens is the
Yule log.
The Yule log tradition can betraced back to what is now the
UK.
The Yule log is a log, ofcourse, that has been specially
chosen to be burned for Yule.
The Yule logs of tradition wereso big that it took several
days usually 12, for them toburn in entirety.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
No shit.
Yeah, 12 days to burn a log.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Right so you know, Like a tree, yeah, like these
huge.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Still 12 days.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
And they kind of timed it.
I think there's like a 12, arecurring theme of 12 across a
lot of these things, I feel likethey've sacked entire cities in
less time.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
But the purpose of burning the Yule log.
Do you know what it was, alan?

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Warmth.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
To keep evil spirits and the sickness at bay.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Wait, no, you said it was to make sparks, because
they're animals.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
So that was the other thing that the sparks coming
off of the Yule Logs.
Every like sparks were good.
It would be like this sign thatall these baby sheep would be
born next year.
Right Like, the more sparks,the more baby animals would be
born.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Someone is just.
They're just spritzing wateronto it just to make sure they
get nice.
Lots of pops for those babysheeps.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
There are a lot of connections to this tradition
and the Christmas tree thatdecorates homes across the world
to this day, including ours.
Evergreen trees were broughtinside homes and situated
generally in the corners.
They were decorated with cloth,food and other bits and bobs.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
You wanted so badly to put the Christmas tree in the
middle of the room.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Let's take a step back.
First of all, it's a fake tree.
Let's take a step back.
First of all.
It's a fake tree.
Alan won't allow us to have areal tree in our home, which is
horrifying because the wholepoint is that we are bringing in
a piece of nature and an actualliving evergreen.
But we have our nice little NewYork City fake tree and I
thought it would be nice to putit along the end of the couch,
and I guess that was thestupidest thing I've ever said

(16:42):
in my life.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
According to Alan, you can't walk through.
You could not get to the couchyes, you could you had to shimmy
between the tree and the tv toget to the couch it's a.
It's a very small tree it was avery small apartment that's
true.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
one of my favorite yuletide traditions was the wild
hunt, or the belief in the wildhunt.
It's no mistake that Yule iscelebrated on the longest night
of the year.
For the Germanic people, Yulewas a time to worship the gods
Again.
Odin actually translates toYule.
Father Odin was believed tolead a pack of ghostly huntsmen
on black horses, bucks anddemon-like hounds with haunted

(17:19):
red eyes, and they would racethrough the night sky.
I mean, it's the most rock androll thing you've ever heard of.
Those who kept watch at nightfor this spectacle would claim
to see 20 or 30 huntsmen on theprowl.
In the old Germanic times,Odin's role was god of the dead,
and he led the hunt across thesky on his eight-legged horse
Sleepnir Is that the name of hishorse?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, that's the name of his horse.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Sleepnear.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Sleepnear.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Is he sleepy?

Speaker 2 (17:42):
No.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
What other pets does Odin have?

Speaker 2 (17:45):
He's got his two ravens.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
What are they named?

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Hugin and Mugin.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
What else?
You know, a lot of Odin facts.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
I think it's just the ravens and the horse.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
The leader of this hunt shifts and changes over
time, so it wasn't alwayshistorically Odin.
Sometimes it was claimed thatthe devil was at the helm of the
wild hunt.
As Christianity was spreadingacross Europe, the hunt started
to take an even darker spin, andI would actually argue that it
was a horrifying one.
It started to inspire visionsof the undead and mass deaths.

(18:16):
It's almost mind-blowing tothink that this brutal hunt led
by a death god is what hasturned into the modern day story
of Santa Claus and his friendlyreindeer.
Jacob Grimm repopularized thehunt in 1835 when he wrote about
it in his Chronicle of GermanMythology.
Yule was one of many pagancelebrations and traditions that
fell into Christianinterpretation, generally a

(18:39):
peacekeeping tactic during therise of Christianity, which
allowed for the pagan traditionsto be preserved through the
lens of the Christian faith.
The idea was to mitigate theviolent pushback from pagans and
make the slow transition intoChristianity more palatable.
But before we talk about someof the very rock and roll
creatures and horrifyingmonsters that have graced
holiday folklore such as theLoch Ness Monster let's first

(19:01):
discuss their foil, the historyof St Nicholas.
It's generally believed that StNicholas hailed from what is now
Turkey.
His birthday is often thoughtto be March 15th, 270 AD, and he
died on December 6th, 343 AD.
And actually, just fun fact,today, as we record, this is
December 6th.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
So Santa is officially dead.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
So, Alan, the way this works, the way history
works, is that he died onDecember 6, 343.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Oh, that's bad.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
So many, many thousands of years ago.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
I don't know if everyone knows this.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Well, hopefully people under five don't, but us
adults can handle it.
But this death day is veryimportant because it's going to
set the scene for a lot of otherChristmas mythology that's
going to follow, but for now,just remember that his feast is
celebrated on his death date,december 6th.
He's known as the patron saintof sailors, merchants, children,
unmarried folks, toy makers andarchers, just to name a few.

(20:00):
Saint Nick was said to havetraveled throughout the land
giving away his money.
Apparently he was quite welloff to those in need.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
This is quite well endowed.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
He became the most popular saint in Europe.
Saint Nick remained in goodstanding with Christians even
long after the ProtestantReformation, and he was
particularly well loved inHolland, which is another
important detail.
So there's actually this reallyweird piece of folklore to talk
about with St Nicholas, and ithas to do with three small

(20:31):
children and a butcher.
So the story goes that therewas Sounds like a joke.
It really is so bizarre.
So the story starts off, as alot of these kind of allegorical
stories do, right that there'sthree small kids.
They're playing around town,they're hanging out in a field,
but they lose track of time.
Then, when it's nighttime,sun's going down, they realize
that they're starving and thatthey're lost.

(20:53):
So as they're walking around,they come to a butcher shop
which has a light on.
They knock on the door andexplain to the butcher what's
going on, that they're lost,that they're hungry, that they
need help, and the butcher sayscome on in.
But as they enter, this evilbutcher takes a sharp knife.
He essentially slashes thechildren up and he wouldn't.

(21:13):
And he salts them up as he woulda piece of meat.
Seven years go by by.
Okay, so that happens.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Seven years go by are they preserved the entire time?

Speaker 1 (21:21):
well, just keep it's a long time for even salted meat
so seven years go by and saintnicholas wanders his way to this
very butcher shop and he goesright to the salting, you know
place where the children arekept and said, says like open it
up.
He puts his hand on top of thecontainer, he prays, he says

(21:42):
rise up children.
And the kids are, how would hesay it, rise up children.
And the children do, they kindof become alive again and the
families are like, thank god,our children are alive.
And so a lot of people point tothat as like one of the stories
of when he's the patron saintof protecting children.
But there's also other versionsof that folklore where he is a

(22:06):
little bit more evil.
It's a little bit weird, butanyway, let's just leave it
there to keep it nice and cheeryfor now.
St Nicholas came to America byway of New York in December of
1773, when a reporter wrote anarticle on the Dutch tradition
of honoring St Nicholas onDecember 6th.
Right, so again December 6th ishis feast day, the day of his
death.
Santa pulls part of hisidentity from both the Christian

(22:29):
figure of St Nicholas and thepagan god Odin.
To honor St Nick after hisdeath in 343 AD, an annual day
of gift giving to children wasinstated Again because he is,
you know, the patron saint ofchildren, originally the 6th of
December, the day he died, whichwas later moved to December
25th after the ProtestantRevolution, and Saint Nick was

(22:50):
renamed Santa Claus.
You can see the canvas that thepagan tradition of Odin
presented and that the Christiantraditions were painted on top
of to create the modern storythat we know today.
The Dutch would call StNicholas Sinterklaas, which is
what led to us calling him SantaClaus Sinterklaas.
Quoting from the Historycomarticle on Santa Claus quote In
1804, john Pintard, a member ofthe New York Historical Society,

(23:13):
distributed woodcuts of StNicholas at the Society's annual
meeting.
The background of the engravingcontains now-familiar Santa
images, including stockingsfilled with toys and fruit hung
over a fireplace.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Fruit.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Why.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Get it roasty-toasty.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Who roasts fruit?

Speaker 1 (23:32):
You do.
You can't eat fruit raw.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
I also don't eat fruit roasted.
You roast it like on a spit.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
We'll have to obtain the woodcuts and we'll confirm.
In 1809, washington Irvinghelped to popularize the
Sinterklaas stories when hereferred to Saint Nicholas as
the patron saint of New York inhis book the History of New York
.
As his prominence grew,sinterklaas was described as
everything from a rascal with ablue three-cornered hat, red
waistcoat and yellow stockingsto a man wearing a broad-brimmed

(24:00):
hat and a huge pair of Flemishtrunk hose.
End quote.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
What does trunk hose look like?

Speaker 1 (24:06):
They're pants.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
They're pants.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Just pants.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
They're Flemish pants .

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Flemish pants.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
They're very elaborate.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
And of course, we all know Washington Irving from his
story the Legend of SleepyHollow.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, he's famous.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Irving's reference to Santa was part of a movement to
shift the core of Christmascelebrations Again.
Hold the phone.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
I didn't, so just quick Washington Irving side
sidebar here.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
OK.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
I didn't realize until this Halloween that Sleepy
Hollow was not called SleepyHollow until like the mid-90s.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
The town yes.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, isn't that crazy.
It was like a fictional placeand then they named it where he
was inspired by.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Just into the mid-90s .
Imagine renaming a town basedoff a story from the 1800s.
That's kind of crazy.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
It's very fun.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
It is fun.
It seems like it's a fun town.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Life is short and you can't take anything too
seriously.
Irving's reference to Santa waspart of a movement to shift the
core of Christmas celebrationsaway from riotous debauchery,
often including home invasion,premarital sex, public sexual
deviancy and more Again, what Iwas referring to earlier.
Most of this comes fromtraditions around these holiday
celebrations, so let's talkabout this tradition a little

(25:20):
bit more right of being totallydebaucherous.
A lot of this happened underthe umbrella of a way sailing, a
term that is going to come up afew times in this episode.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
What was the term?

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Wassailing, wassailing, wassailing, way
sailing.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Way sailing or wassailing.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Probably wassling, wassling.
Wassling mostly means housevisiting like caroling, if you
will kind of.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
So there I was wassling.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Peasants would bring a wassail bowl, offer a drink to
the homeowner in exchange forgifts and food, so kind of, if
you're wassailing or wassling,wassling, wassling.
You're walking around with yourwassail bowl and you're, you
know, offering little sips anddrips of liquor and whatever to
homeowners.
You're going house by house,but in some cases, right, there

(26:03):
was kind of like this topsyturvy day celebrated around this
time, I think, especially inancient Rome, and peasants would
go into the rich, you know, thehomes of the rich and rob them
and take their.
It was like this backwards day.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Fuck yeah, eat the rich.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Like the purge a bit, but only against the rich.
You gotta watch the purge.
You got a lot of falseassumptions.
Who knew what a christmas movieit would turn out to be?
Ancient rome was known for asimilar festival.
One week before the wintersolstice, romans would celebrate
saturnalia, named for the godsaturn, with celebrations of
food and drink.
It's described as a wild anddelirious time in a pagan
origins documentary on YouTube.
A time meant to turn the socialorder on its head.

(26:45):
It would right.
So the idea was that it wascelebrating the disorder of the
universe.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Heck yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
The more wealthy Romans had far more serious
celebrations.
They would worship Mithra,known as the god of the
unconquerable sun.
We talk about some of this onthe Yule episode that we had a
few years ago, I think in 2021.
But to me this is like one ofthe most poignant parts of kind
of understanding the verycomplicated history of this
holiday.
The birthday of Mithra,december 25th, was the holiest

(27:14):
day of the year, so the birthdayright of this unconquerable son
, god, was December 25th.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
We know Jesus was born in the spring, but this is
the exact.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
We know.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yes, and this is kind of the exact idea that, okay,
christianity was spreadingacross Europe, there was an
existing force, you know, layerof people who believed in these
pagan holidays and traditions,one of them being worshiping the
god, mithra, on December 25th.
So instead of saying, you nowworship Jesus.
In the spring, they kind ofvery slowly reskin these

(27:51):
holidays and festivals so thatit's an easier pill to swallow
right and there's lessresistance to it.
So Mithra was believed to havebeen born out of a rock and onto
a field and shepherds had cometo worship him.
There's tons of ties herebetween this and the biblical
origins of Jesus.
At first, the resurrection ofJesus was actually much more
important than his birthday,right?

(28:12):
And that's what happens, Ithink, around Easter.
Actually, I'm probably not theperson to provide any
information on Jesus's timelines, but I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
I think there's a book about it.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
So we just looked it up and actually there's not a
clear Jesus birthday in theBible.
There's some historical textsthat lead us to believe that it
was in the spring and sort of,because it was open-ended and
because there was this existingmassive holy holiday.
You know, here we are, but fastforwarding a bit.
By the 1820s it became commonto buy Christmas gifts for your

(28:44):
loved ones around the holidays,and by the 1840s some of those
advertisements included imageryof Santa Claus, and the imagery
of Santa Claus that we knowtoday largely comes from
Coca-Cola.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, screw them.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
I mean, I do love a Coke.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Ah, who doesn't?
Another fun soda fact.
So while we were seeing the hitmovie Werewolves, we were at a
theater that only had Pepsiproducts, so naturally I ordered
a Dr Pepper.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
Because down with Pepsi really.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
And did you know that Dr Pepper is independently
owned by the Dr PepperCorporation?
I did not.
And it's bottled by Pepsi, butit's half owned by Coke.
So it's really just this totalchaos.
Free agent that they normallyassociate with Pepsi, but you
could find it anywhere.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
So we got root beer.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
We did get root beer In 1822,.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Twas the Night Before Christmas.
A poem by Clement Clark Moorewas released.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
That's the one with the mouse right.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
That's right.
The poem gave Santa hissupernatural power, right when
he flies to each child's houseat night.
He gets down their chimneysomehow Like the poem really, I
guess, creates the rules ofSanta Claus as we know them
today.
I'm going to quote again fromthe historycom article.
Quote in 1881, politicalcartoonist Thomas Nast drew on
Moore's poem to create the firstlikeness that matches our

(30:05):
modern image of Santa Claus.
His cartoon, which appeared inHarper's Weekly, depicted Santa
as a rotund, cheerful man with afull white beard, holding a
sack laden with toys for luckychildren.
It is Nast who gave Santa hisbright red suit trimmed with
white fur.
North Pole workshop elves andhis wife, mrs Claus.
End quote.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
He gave him his wife.
Times were different.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
This evolution of Santa Claus runs parallel in
some ways with the Englishfolklore of Father Christmas.
From the 1500s up until the19th century, Father Christmas
was a symbol and not asupernatural mythical entity,
meaning he was sort of like anallegorical figure and not so
much something that peoplereally believed in.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
And what exactly did Father Christmas do?

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Good question, Alan.
His main role was to bringcheer to parties and not bring
gifts to kids.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Wow.
So he was like a hype man.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Again, this was before Christmas as we know it
today.
Right, this was when Christmaswas like let's get drunk.
So a lot of what we're about totalk about now, which is a few
different versions of kind oflike these Father Christmas type
beings.
The idea was like that theypresided over partying.
This is mainly becauseChristmas celebrations up until
this point were focused onadults and not families, you

(31:17):
know, kids and gift giving andall that stuff.
Yeah, those suck a historic yorktradition around this time was
called yule writings.
It entailed a man dressed up asyule, as a personified what
would that look like?
Carrying meat and cakes throughtown and throwing nuts into the
crowd and at onlookers get yournuts.
I'm picturing it as like thelast ghost in a christmas, a

(31:40):
christmas carol, you know justlike a kind of like a jolly man
in like a robe who looks like ahunter kind of.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
I just imagine, like you know, sometimes he's, you
know, throwing peanuts,sometimes it's like you know,
walnuts, and every so often hesees someone he hates and he
throws coconuts.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
In 1572, this tradition was banned because it
caused too much drama and wastoo quote rude and barbaric.
Yeah, he's chucking coconuts.
We should also mention theLords of Misrule.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Wait, why does that sound so familiar?

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Because we have a body wash in our shower.
Called that from Lush.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's it .

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Or known in Scotland as an abbot of unreason.
So this was an official who wasappointed during Christmas tide
to rule over the Feast of Fools.
Generally this appointment wasgiven to a peasant and the
results were quite debaucherous,right.
So this is somewhat similar towhat we just talked about for
ancient Rome, where the peasantswere given this power they
would invade the homes of therich.

(32:36):
It's kind of the same idea,right.
You always make the lord ofmisrule, who kind of gets to be
in charge for a day, king for aday, as a peasant.
Typically these traditions andsimilar ones of festivals around
january 1st date back thousandsof years.
So the feast of fools is morealigned with january 1st.
But again, all of this shit isso close together on the
calendar it all has kind ofshifted and combined into

(32:57):
christmas as we know it todayjanuary 1st is the feast of
fools, that's right it's kind offun.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
How do we celebrate?

Speaker 1 (33:04):
so we celebrate by partaking in like role.
Reversal right oh, a littlerole play we can elect a quote
unquote mock leader.
We can dress up in costumes.
We can um exchange funnyparodies of religious ceremonies
oh um, we could dance, we couldsing, could sing, we could take

(33:25):
part in some lighthearted, very, very vanilla mischief.
Such as I think that's for usto decide, but really what we
want to do is embrace the spiritof temporary chaos.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Temporary chaos Yep, okay.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Should we start celebrating?
I actually think this is quitefun it does sound pretty fun.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
We really got to flesh this out, though I really
need some clarification on youknow what is light mischief.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Well, I think we're not going to hurt anyone, we're
not going to kill anyone.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Right, but it's like peanut butter, but maybe we'll
toilet paper somebody's bathroom.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Toilet paper someone's bathroom, yeah.
Or, like we like, flipeveryone's furniture upside down
.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Wow, I was thinking like peanut butter on a door
handle.
Is that too much?

Speaker 1 (34:09):
No, that's okay.
I mean, it depends on theperson.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
It's fucking dogs love it.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Unless that dog has a peanut allergy.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Does that happen with dogs?
I have no idea, it's fuckingdumb.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
What we do know is that on January 1st in the year
400 of our Lord, a bishop inmodern day Turkey preached
against the Feast of Calends.
So a side note here Calendsrefers to the first day of the
month in the Roman calendar, andit's where we get the term
calendar from.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, but anyway, the bishop took issue with the
feast.
His sermon talked about themock king from antiquity and the
tradition of the feast, whichincluded children visiting
different houses and exchanginggifts for rewards.
Quoting from his sermon quotethis festival teaches even the
little children, artless andsimple, to be greedy and
accustoms them to go from houseto house and to offer novel

(34:57):
gifts, fruits covered withsilver tinsel.
For these they receive inreturn gifts double their value,
and thus tender minds of theyoung begin to be impressed with
that which is commercial andsorted.
And then, jumping ahead in thequote a little bit, we celebrate
the birth of Christ, since atthis time God manifested himself
in the flesh.
We celebrate the feast oflights, epiphany, since by the

(35:19):
forgiveness of our sins we areled forth from the dark prison
of our former life into a lifeof light and uprightness, end
quote.
I also have one more quote foryou from the Feasts of Misrule.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Please go on.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
This one is from the 1600s in Tudor England.
John Stowe wrote this in hisSurvey of London from 1603.
Again, this is about the Feastsof Misrule Quote.
In the feast of Christmas therewas in the king's house,
wheresoever he was lodged, alord of Misrule or master of
fairy disports and the like hadye in the house.

(35:52):
Sorry, this isn't like oldEnglish, so bear with me.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
You just got to do the accent.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
And the like had ye in the house of every noble man
of honor or good worship, andthe like had ye For his
spiritual or temporal.
Amongst the which the mayor oflondon, in either of the
sheriffs, had their severallords of misrule, ever
contending without quarrel oroffense, who should make the
rarest pastimes to delight thebeholders.

(36:16):
These lords, beginning theirrule on alholen eve, which is
pointed out to be Halloween,continued the same till the
morrow, after the Feast ofPurification, commonly called
Candlemas Day.
In all which space there werefine and subtle distinguishes,
masks and mummeries with playingat cards for counters, nails

(36:37):
and points in every house, morefor pastimes than for gain.
End quote.
The custom was banned inEngland in the 17th century.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Why.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Because it was too chaotic Sounds fun.
And in the 19th century therewas a shift to more of a
religious form of worship.
We talk about this tradition abit in our History of Yule
episode from 2022, I guess whichreally goes into the
pre-Christian pagan celebrationsin a deeper way.
I would suggest listening toboth episode 52 and 92 for more
on some of these topics.

(37:06):
But let's talk about a creaturewho has become a figurehead for
Christmas horror Rudolph.
Traditionally across Austria'sAlpine folklore and some parts
of Germany, krampus was said tovisit children on the night of
December 5th, the day before thefeast of St Nicholas.
While well-behaved childrenwill be rewarded with gifts and

(37:26):
treats from St Nick, krampus wasknown to punish bad children
Again get ready for this themeto recur over and over again.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
We had a whole Krampus episode, right.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
We did, but it was like episode five.
It was horrifying.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Was it over Christmas ?
Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, I think so.
Many believe Krampus dates backto pagan times.
In some ways Krampus is similarto Germany's Belschnickel,
except that Belschnickel worksalone, without Saint Nick
hovering over his shoulder.
So right, krampus and SaintNick are sort of like a good cop
bad cop sort of pairing.
Belschnickel is a single,single man on his own.
Belschnigel is all alone.

(38:05):
That's right.
Krampus is believed to beinspired by other earlier
creatures, mainly Perchan andStraggle.
Percha is a figure that fits inthe same mold as many of these
other holiday creatures do.
On New Year's Eve, percha issaid to roam around and punish
those who have misbehaved andreward well-behaved folks.
Quoting from the Atlas Obscuraarticle, quote her punishment of
choice involves slashing openyour stomach so she may

(38:28):
violently rip out yourintestines, which are then
replaced by straw, rocks andgarbage.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
It sucks.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
The tradition of having goose for Christmas is
sometimes linked to witches likePercha, who is often depicted
as having a goose foot, alongwith the belief that goose fat
enabled witches to fly.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Is that true?

Speaker 1 (38:46):
It is true.
In many places such asSwitzerland, percha rides with a
throng of demon-like helpers,known as straggle, who love to
partake in the feast ofofferings left out for them on
Christmas by people hoping forPercha's blessings of wealth and
health in the new year.
In some places, straggle get todole out the punishment
themselves and aren't terriblydiscerning as they rob all bad

(39:08):
children and tear them intopieces in the air end quote.
So again, this is somewhatsimilar to this idea of Santa
and his reindeer and leaving outtreats for kind of the
accompanying, you know, horde.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
I mean, I understand, but it sounds way more fun.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yes, I agree, we can certainly celebrate anything we
want in our household.
Quoting from John J Honigman's1975 Observations of
Celebrations in Styria, quotethe St Nicholas Festival we are
describing incorporates culturalelements widely distributed in
Europe.
St Nicholas himself becamepopular in Germany around the
11th century.

(39:43):
The feast dedicated to thispatron of children is only one
winter occasion in whichchildren are objects of special
attention Martinmus, the feastof the holy innocents and New
Year's Day.
Masked devils actingboisterously and making
nuisances of themselves areknown in Germany since at least
the 16th century, whileanimal-masked devils combining

(40:04):
dreadful comic antics appearedin medieval church plays.
A large literature, much of itby European folklorists, bears
on these subjects.
Austrians in the community wehave studied are quite aware of
heathen elements being blendedwith Christian elements in the
Saint Nicholas customs and inother traditional winter
ceremonies.
They believe Krampus derivesfrom a pagan supernatural who

(40:29):
was assimilated to the Christiandevil end.
Quote Belschnickel is similarto Krampus in some ways.
He hails from a region ofGermany in the southwest, along
the Rhine River.
Belschnickel is often depictedas a man who wears furs and a
mask.
Similar to Krampus, he is alsodepicted as having a long tongue
a very creepy detail.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
So he has a mask and a long tongue.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Can you describe the mask then?

Speaker 1 (40:52):
So the idea is that he, I think, underneath his mask
looks like a man and he wantsto make himself scarier to
children.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
So he looks like a dude with a really long tongue,
but he puts on some kind ofspooky mask.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, so there's tons of different kinds of
variations.
Some and some is described as awooden mask bearing a friendly
visage.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
I'm Googling Belschnickel.
I don't know, Abby Belschnickeljust kind of looks like a, like
a drifter, you know, like itlooks like very Rip Van Winkle-y
.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
Yeah, exactly, but he sometimes wears a mask to freak
people out, and I think thatcan kind of depend on region to
region or year to year.
I understand.
So similar to Krampus, he walksaround with a switch in order to
punish poorly behaved children.
So some believe thatBelschnickel is based on
Farmhand Rupert, which is aneven older story from Germanic

(41:44):
folklore.
Farmhand Rupert is an associateof St Nicholas.
Rupert dates back to the 17thcentury in written texts and he
was an incredibly popular figurelocally but isn't broadly known
outside of the region and youkind of get that where you have
all these different versions andthey're very like, hyper
localized, but generally havevery similar characteristics.

(42:04):
Across the Holy Roman Empire andits surrounding regions the
companions of Saint Nicholaswere known to accompany Saint
Nick and acted as foils to him,generally meant to punish poorly
behaved children, while SaintNick rewards well-behaved
children with presents, and wecan see how this, you know, is
one of those parenting toolsthat is very easy and helpful.
Firm hand Rupert generallywears a white robe, again a mask

(42:27):
and a flax wig.
Sometimes he is depicted aswalking with a limp from a
childhood injury In Italy, laBuffana, who shout out to my
friend Allie, who introduced meto La Buffana.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
Why does it sound so familiar?

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Is a folklore witch, I don't know.
She delivers gifts to childrenon epiphany night, the night of
january 5th epiphany night.
That's kind of fun she isdepicted as a grandmotherly type
woman, sometimes againdescribed as a witch.
Some sources describe her asfilling up stockings with small
gifts and trinkets.
Not only does she fill sockswith toys and gifts as they hang

(43:00):
above the fire, but she alsotends to clean up a bit before
she leaves.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
So she's generally very helpful.
That's great.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
But let's talk a little bit about the Feast of
Epiphany, because I didn't knowmuch or anything about it before
researching this.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Same.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
So this is a feast that celebrates the visit of the
Magi or the wise men to thebaby Jesus, or, in some cases,
it's the celebration of thebaptism of Jesus.
It happens on January 6thtraditionally.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
When was LBJ baptized ?

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Little Baby Jesus.
Yeah, I don't know the answerto that, but it's just a feast
commemorating that.
It can also be known as ThreeKings Day.
The night before Epiphany Eveis also known as Twelfth Night
Again, another reference to this12.
Celebrations can be marked withwinter swimming, I guess, doing
like a polar plunge, removingChristmas decorations, eating
Three Kings cake or chalking thedoor.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
What is Three Kings cake?

Speaker 1 (43:52):
I actually only know what King's cake is, which is a
New Orleans tradition.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yeah, I've had King's cake.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
King's cake is where they have the little figure of
the baby in it, and then whoevergets that?

Speaker 2 (44:01):
yeah like what is it?
It's a thing what if you get it?
What happens?

Speaker 1 (44:05):
whoever finds the baby jesus figurine is blessed
oh and they are supposed to, Iguess, take the figure to the
nearest church on candlemas day.
So I guess it is kind ofrelated to this interesting that
it has prevailed in new orleans, of all places oh, I think it
is just the same thing, justdifferent terms and the other
thing that they traditionally dois chalk the door, which um

(44:26):
what's that?
Just blessing the home oh, justwell something on the door.
That is like a blessing for thehouse big old pentagram yeah
exactly the fauna is similar insome ways to babushka, who hails
from russia and parts ofeastern europe.
These witchy figures are oftento believe to have been derived
from Mother Holly, which I hadnever heard of.
Mother Holly is known for herhuge teeth.

(44:48):
She's also believed to be thekind of thing that causes snow
by shaking out her featherpillows and bedding.
And that's the thing thatcauses snow.
It's disgusting.
All right, I have another onefor you, another kind of monster
Christmas creature that I'mreally excited to discuss.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Okay, hit me.
Let me guess it's Germanic.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
No, what Celtic and British?

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Mary Lude, the Christmas zombie horse, is a
folk custom from Wales.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Mary Lude, the Christmas zombie horse, just
making sure I get that right.
That's right, okay.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
In Celtic and British folklore, white horses were
believed to be able to travel tothe underworld, suggesting that
the white color of this horseisn't arbitrary.
Quoting from a whalescom articleon the history of this folklore
, quote the origins of Mary'sname are, like the horse herself
, deeply mysterious.
One Welsh translation of it,grey Mare, connects it to the

(45:44):
heritage of pale horses inCeltic and British mythology,
many of whom can cross over tothe underworld.
The other translation for MarieLude is Grey Mary.
Some scholars have linked herto a legend connected to the
nativity story, a pregnant horsesent out of the stables.
When Mary arrived to have Jesus, she spent dark days roaming
the land trying to findsomewhere new to have a foal.

(46:05):
Many Mary fans believe thecharacter to have come from
pre-Christian pagan origins.
However, this is impossible toprove, but there's definitely
something timeless andterrifying about her end quote.
The first recording of thecustom dates back to 1800 from J
Evans' book A Tour Through Partof North Wales.
In practice, mary Lude takesthe form of a horse skull

(46:26):
attached to a hobby horse poleand fitted with a white hood or
sheet.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
And in case you aren't familiar with a hobby
horse pole, just look up hobbyhorsing, because it's a whole
sport.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yeah, it's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Also, the pictures of the Christmas zombie horse are
amazing.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, she's very cool .

Speaker 2 (46:47):
People just like dressed up, you know, in like a
traditional ghost costume with abig white bed sheet with an
actual horse skull pointing outthe front and someone leading
them around by a leash like it'sa fetish.
Yeah, it's kind of weird.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah, it's wild, leading them around by a leash
like it's a fetish.
Yeah, it's kind of weird.
Yeah, it's wild.
The puppet is taken around thetown along with other similar
figurines, like a jestersometimes.
This usually happens betweenChristmas Day and Twelfth Night,
mary is dressed up in lightsand colorful seasonal
decorations.
Each time she and her entouragearrive at a house, traditional

(47:24):
songs are sung and a battle ofwits takes place.
Mary and her entourage try togain entry to the home by
exchanging rhyming insults withthe residents.
If mary wins, the house isthought to have good luck for
the year to come.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
So you want to let her win how does, how does the
competition work exactly?

Speaker 1 (47:36):
they come up to the house and the homeowners they
kind of go back and forth withlike it's like a roast, but it's
like rhyming, a rap battle, ifyou will, a welsh christmas day
rap battle okay, wits got it,but you got to let them win well
, yeah, if you let her win, thenyou have good luck but is it
obvious?

Speaker 2 (47:55):
like, can you just?

Speaker 1 (47:56):
I don't know the nuance of it, you know.
I imagine it's more fun to putup a little bit of a fight
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
But then what if you put up too good of a fight?

Speaker 1 (48:02):
I know shit, shit there are also a few
scandinavian monsters to mention.
Gorilla hails from iceland andtruly scares me to my core.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Gorilla g-r-y-l-a okay, not a gorilla, not like
the big primate no, I'll tellyou about her.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
she is a giant angry troll who is always starving for
children.
On Christmas, she is known tocome down from her mountainous
home and hunt for children toeat, especially poorly behaved
ones.
Once she finds them, she throwsthem in a sack, brings them to
the mountain, boils them andturns them into a stew.
Her sons 13 of them are knownas the Yule Lads.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yule Lads, they're just a bunch of Yule Lads, and I
assume they're trolls as well.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
They are described as similar to Snow White's dwarves
.
The Yule Lads each have aspecial defining characteristic.
Quoting from the Atlas Obscuraarticle quote most of them are
depicted as mischievouspranksters and petty criminals.
Icelandic children are visitedeach night on the 13 days
leading up to christmas by adifferent yule lad, including

(49:08):
such charmers as sheep coat clog, a peg-legged sheep.
Fancier sheep sheep, so what?
You heard me?
Gully hawk, who hides out inditches and gullies and waits
for an opportune moment to runinto the cow shed and lick the
foam off the milk in the milkingbuckets.
Fuck Stubby, whose name denoteshis stature as he is unusually

(49:30):
short.
Spoon Licker, a licker andthief of spoons.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
You fucking Spoon Licker.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Pot Scraper, who is a petty thief of leftovers.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
These all sound like slurs.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Bowl Licker, who hides under your bed and waits
for you to absentmindedly putdown your bowl so he can steal
it and, yes, lick it.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Why are you, why do you have a bowl in bed?

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Door slammer.
That's you who slams doors allnight.
Skier gobbler who eats skieryogurt.
Sausage swiper who stealssausage.
Window peeper who watches youfrom the windows doorway sniffer
okay, you've just.
Every one of these, with veryfew exceptions, has described a
normal dog doorway sniffer whouses his incredibly large nose

(50:14):
to sniff through doors to findbread meat hook.
Who always brings a hook alongwith him so that he can steal
meat, and candle stealer whofollows children so that he can
steal meat.
And Candle Stealer who followschildren around so he can steal
their candles, leaving them inthe dark end.
Quote Wow, that's like one ofmy favorite bits of new
information in this episode theYule Lads.
I think we should celebratethem leading up to Christmas.

(50:36):
This year, 13 days of the YuleLads.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
It's kind of fun.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Except we don't have any cows to like eat the froth
of.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Well, that's the whole point.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
If we did, then Right , we have to go to somebody
else's house.
We have to be wary.
I see.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Hold on, he licked the froth.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Why is that bad?

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Because it's not his froth.
I don't know.
I think maybe the top is thefroth, did they?
Turn it into like cream orsomething.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
I mean, if you let it sit, cream rises to the top.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, so he's probably eating the cream.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Okay, I remember this was just like some like old
school grandparent shit.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Where you know whoever got up.
I remember my grandfathersaying you know he grew up with
five siblings and you knowwhoever got up early to bring in
the milk.
Because you had the milkdelivery guy Right, they could
pop it open and they could justdrink the cream off the top, and
then everyone else in thefamily would be really mad
because the cream was gone.
Yeah, and it was just like whatskim milk at that point.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
No, then it's just like.
I guess I don't know how milkworks, just regular milk.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
No, well, it's skim.
So whole milk is just when it'sbeen homogenized.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
So that's when the cream and the skim has become
milk, I think.
They even it out.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
I don't know, I don't , you know, I'm not really up on
my milk facts yeah it's.
I mean, I have a degree inmilkology, but it's from the
University of Phoenix.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
And we also have to mention the Yule Cat, the known
pet of Grilla and her Yule lads.
The Yule Cat doesn't care ifyou've been naughty or nice.
It will only refrain fromeating you if you offer a new
piece of clothing each Christmas.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
That's amazing.
New sweaters.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
So those are the new Christmas friends that we've met
this year and we're excited tocelebrate, but there's also a
Victorian era tradition oftelling ghost stories on
Christmas Eve, which is myfavorite thing to remind people
of every holiday season.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
You say so, but then we just keep coming back to a
Christmas carol, and it's likewhat else is there to say?

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Well, let's talk about it.
This is not random at all.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Sounds pretty random.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
The folk tradition dates back hundreds of years
across Europe, but because thePuritans were opposed to it, it
didn't come to America in ameaningful way.
So this was a big deal, right,this was a big part of this time
of year across Europe and itjust never really made it over
here.
There are even references tothis tradition in the works of
Shakespeare, in the Winter'sTale, when Mammalus claims he is

(53:02):
the perfect winter story totell of spirits and goblins.
Even one of my favorite ghoststories of all time, the Turn of
the Screw by Henry James,frames the story using Christmas
Eve, does it?
So the story starts right.
The frame of the story isliterally a group of men who are
telling ghost stories onChristmas Eve.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
And they're telling the story of the Turn of the
Screw.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
And so the turn of the screw is like, famously an
ambiguous story.
Right, it's always the storypeople point to when we look
back at the trope, this ghoststory trope of is the person
delusional or is it paranormal?

Speaker 2 (53:34):
It's the unreliable narrator.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Right, and one of the reasons why people will argue
that it is actually, you know,paranormal is because it's being
told as a ghost story.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
I gotcha, but the story itself has nothing to do
with Christmas.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Just the frame.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Quoting from the Smithsonian Magazine article by
Colin Dickey.
Quote At the same time that thetradition of Christmas ghosts
had begun to ossify, losing theinitial spiritual charge that
drove its popularity, a newtradition was being imported
from across the Atlantic,carried by the huge wave of
Scottish and Irish immigrantscoming to America.
Halloween the holiday, as weknow it, is an odd hybrid of

(54:13):
Celtic and Catholic traditions.
It borrows heavily from theancient pagan holiday, samhain,
which celebrates the end ofharvest season and the onset of
winter.
As with numerous other paganholidays, samhain was, in time,
merged with the Catholicfestival of All Souls Day, which
could also be tinged towardsobsessions of the dead into
Halloween, a time when the deadwere revered, the boundaries

(54:35):
between this life and theafterlife were thinnest and when
ghosts and goblins ruled thenight.
End quote.
So yes, alan, I am going totalk a little bit about A
Christmas Carol, because it is,in fact, the most famous
Christmas story of all time andthe most famous ghost story of
all time.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Do you think it's the most famous Christmas story?

Speaker 1 (54:50):
I think it's one of them.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
I would say that would be the story of the birth
of Jesus.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Sure, yeah, it actually makes a lot of sense
that this story is both, though.
A Christmas Carol was writtenalmost 200 years ago and it
still endures to this day.
Names like Ebenezer Scrooge,Tiny Tim and Bob Cratchit still
mean something to modern-dayfolks, which I think is quite
the feat, right?
It's rare.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
I mean, yeah, it was all but forgotten until the
Muppets came around.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
The ghosts of Christmas past, present and
future still remain relevant.
This is partially due toremakes and retellings of A
Christmas Carol across mediums,for instance, the Muppets
Christmas Carol from 1992 andmore than 100 other renditions,
and at least 20 TV shows haveused the format for episodes
right, so they kind of havetheir own spin on the same
format.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
That might be Michael Caine's best work.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
I don't disagree.
Charles Dickens was born into amiddle-class family in 1812,
and his father was taken to adebtor's prison by the time that
he was 12 years old.
Dickens was forced to sell hisbeloved collection of books as a
way to bring in money for hisfamily, and he also had to drop
out of school and start work atthis very rat-infested
shoe-blacking factory where theymade shoe polish.

(56:02):
As an adult, dickens became afairly prolific author.
Many biographers attribute hiscreative drive to the hard times
he experienced in his earlylife.
A Christmas Carol was not hisfirst story about the holiday.
In 1835, his story ChristmasFestivities was published, and
it was republished a year laterwith the name A Christmas Dinner
so lame festivities waspublished and it was republished

(56:23):
a year later with the name achristmas dinner so lame.
The story of the goblins whostole a sexton was published in
1863 as well, which some believeto be an earlier version of a
christmas carol.
But either way it shows youright, the popularity of
christmas ghost stories thathe's.
He's writing many of them everyyear.
In october of 1843, dickensstarted to write write A
Christmas Carol.
He finished writing it in sixweeks, finishing up the last

(56:44):
pages in early December of 1843.
Famously, he originallycomposed much of the story in
his head while he took up to 20mile walks at night.
Dickens' sister in law wrotehow he quote wept and laughed
and wept again and excitedhimself in the most
extraordinary manner incomposition, end quote.
The story was originallypublished on December 19th with

(57:07):
the title A Christmas Carol inProse being a Ghost Story of
Christmas.
Despite a somewhat expensiveprice of five shillings each,
the 6,000 original first editioncopies sold quickly.
More editions were printed andsold over the next year and
legal battles over the copyrightsprang up.
But Dickens won them, andthere's actually something to be

(57:32):
said here about the innovationsaround this time in the
printing press, Because up untilthis point you have people who
have this tradition of tellingghost stories on Christmas Eve.
Right, but it's all word ofmouth, like the same stories
your family would always tell,and that's kind of how they
travel through the community andthrough time and generations.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Right, because everyone's illiterate.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
And then when you get the invention of the printing
press or you know the kind ofthese industrial revolution
technologies, you can then makemoney off of this because it has
this nostalgic interest, right,people want to own this thing
that they've kind of grown uplistening to.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
Wait, interest, right , people want to own this thing
that they've kind of grown uplistening to.
Wait a minute.
You're saying somebody wouldcommercialize nostalgia.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
You're right, that seems unlikely.
So that actually has a lot todo with kind of solidifying this
practice and shifting it intosomething different, right?
Because even before that andthen even after that, there's,
you know, listening to storieson the radio, because that's all
people had.
It was, it was all very oral.
Dickens was 31 years old at thetime of publication.

(58:27):
For Dickens, a Christmas Carolwas more than just a spooky
holiday ghost story.
The story is rich in socialcommentary, which makes sense
given what we know about hislife.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
That's right.
It was also a giant paycheck.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
He was often reflecting on the vast delta
between classes and those livingin poverty.
But despite all of this,dickens was unable to convince
Mark Twain of his story.
Dickens came to the US to readhis own story to audiences.
He is credited as the firstwriter to do this.
Mark Twain had this to say,quote there is no heart, no

(58:59):
feeling.
It is nothing but glitteringfrostwork.
End quote.
Though perhaps the associationbetween holiday cheer and horror
seems out of place in moderntimes, it's actually perfectly
aligned when we really dig intothe sprawling and varied history
of this time of year, fromallegorical Christmas monsters
meant to scare children intogood behavior throughout the
year to the tradition ofexchanging scary stories on

(59:22):
Christmas Eve.
Generally, december and Januaryhave not only been the coldest
and darkest periods of the yearfor Western cultures.
It's also been a time of yearfilled with festivals and
holidays dating back to theearliest of pagans.
So how does all this translateto modern day horror?
There are really only a fewChristmas horror movies that I
can think of that really honorthe folklore and tropes that

(59:43):
they are inspired by.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
That's just because you haven't done your research.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Well, I'll let you chime in, but obviously one that
comes to mind for me is Krampusfrom 2015, which stars Adam
Scott and Toni Collette.
It's a great example of kind of, in a very meta way,
acknowledging the history ofthis folklore and, you know,
it's kind of the grandmotherwho's from the old country
brings it about.
Rare exports is also a reallygood example of this.

(01:00:07):
In this case, it brings Finnishfolklore to life.
And then, of course, you haveChristmas horror films that
simply play with a juxtapositionof horror and Christmas cheer
For instance, anna and theApocalypse from 2017, gremlins
from 1984, it's a WonderfulKnife from 2023, and Black
Christmas from 1974.
But, alan, we did watch quite afew Christmas horror movies and

(01:00:29):
you watched many.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
What was the one with the animatronic Santa?

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Christmas, Bloody Christmas yeah that was cool.
Yeah, that one's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
That's a good, solid horror movie.
It's a fun romp of a slasherthat uses Christmas as the
perfect, needed horror trope ofwhy the fuck is nobody else
around Sure, and why can't Ijust call for help Because it's
Christmas.
No one's taking you seriouslyIn this case.

(01:01:01):
You know there's an animatronicSanta just rampaging.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
I would argue that films like that are playing with
Christmas Less of like amechanic to eliminate the
ability for people to help, butmore so to create this huge
delta between what this dayshould be and what it has turned
out to be.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Oh, absolutely so.
You know, christmas, bloodyChristmas, is just a solid
holiday horror movie.
However, we just watched RedSnow, and so that is a Christmas
vampire movie.
Yes, and that is the perfectexample of no one's around,
because they're all away forChristmas, and that is why the

(01:01:39):
person is left to deal with thisall on their own.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Yeah, yeah, I think Better Watch Out is also like a
somewhat similar version.
It's not taking people away,but, like you know, the parents
are at a holiday party and Idon't know that one, I think,
particularly plays with theDelta a bit, because it's also.
I don't want to give anythingaway about it because I think
it's an interesting watch, butit also, I think, is trying to

(01:02:04):
just, every step of the way,surprise you yes, and it does
such a good job of it yeah, somuch so that I I'm kind of
uncomfortable with it it'samazing, it's a great movie.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Don't listen to it all uh, but I did what I never
do and I read the description ofthe film in the little
thumbnail before you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
You watched it.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
And even with that, they subvert your expectations.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
So well, it's good marketing.
It was great Because you reallythink you know what's going to
happen.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
It seems like a very paint by numbers and it is not.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
So that was Better Watch Out from 2016.
The whole reason why we decidedto do this again was that I
feel like in the last few yearsthey have just pumped out so, so
many christmas horror movies athousand percent it really
started in like 2015 yeah maybeI mean there's.
There's ones from before, thatfor sure, but starting in 2015

(01:02:59):
and then 2016 and 17 reallyexploded and you know we did our
episode.
We watched a bunch of those butthen, just like the last couple
of years, so many have come out.
Earlier we mentioned there'sSomething in the Barn and that
one is like, rife with mythologyand is a perfect Christmas
horror movie.
We also finally got around towatching Gremlins.

(01:03:19):
Despite the fact that it's likea staple of this topic, it's
very much a horror movie that'snot very scary.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
It's like a horror movie for kids.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
It's a creature feature.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's gentle, yes, but it's actually
kind of terrifying.
You know just how quicklythings get out of control.
Yeah, things get out of control, yeah, uh.
However, I will say that themom in gremlins is one of the.
I just love when you have likesmart protagonists.
Yes, she's great everyone'slike, you know disbelieving, you

(01:03:53):
know being like hey little guy,what are you up to?

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
but she immediately goes into murder mode my
favorite moment is when shegrabs a knife and then pauses
and grabs a second knife.
Yeah, it's, it's great uh, sheis we.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
We love a smart protagonist.
Yes, she and in ripley shouldjust go to town on the, the, the
for the gremlins xenomorphcrossover there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
Violent night is also a pretty good like standard
horror slasher movie.
I liked that one quite a bit.
I also want to call it, ofcourse, tim Burton's A Nightmare
Before Christmas from 1993,which I know a lot of people
debate when is the appropriatetime of year to watch it?
I argue that it's a Christmasmovie, doesn't have to be for
you, but I think it just makessense to kind of watch it once

(01:04:38):
you've, you know, when you're inthe middle of the holidays,
versus on either end of it.
Hosts from 2020.
I also really really love theLodge from 2019, which is not
cheerful, or you know.
I think a lot of theseChristmas horror movies have
this like upbeat cheerful energythat you, you know, kind of
expect around Christmas time orin a Christmas horror film.

(01:04:58):
The Lodge from 2019 is not thatat all.
It is bleak and depressing andhorrifying, but I like that.
There's something that's alittle bit different in this
list the Curse of the Cat Peoplefrom 1944, speaking of things
that are a bit different.
And then, of course, you havethe Sacrifice Game from last
year, which is from our friends,directed by Jen Wexler and, I
believe, written by Sean Redlitzand Jen Wexler.

(01:05:18):
We love it a lot.
We think it's really reallygreat and one of the Christmas
horror films on this list, Ithink that surprises you and
plays with stuff that's like alittle bit different from being
hyper holiday driven, which isreally fun.
And just in general, I enjoysnow horror.
You know, like winter horrorbecause I think there's

(01:05:40):
something you know.
Obviously the Shining is such agreat example of that but I
think there's something veryisolating and universal about
being snowed in, losing power,being stuck somewhere, being
stuck somewhere without food oryou know, access to things that
can be, you know, really, thatcan be really powerful as a

(01:06:00):
mechanic to add in a horrormovie.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Absolutely.
You know, when people areisolated, it's just another
great mechanic for why peoplecan't leave.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Right.
And then if you introducesomething paranormal or whatever
, or a slasher, a villain,things get crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
You know, in all these juxtaposed over the like,
the warm, wholesome idea ofchristmas, like that's horror in
a nutshell.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
You want to take something comfortable and make
it very uncomfortable yeah, yeah, exactly okay, alan, if people
are going to go out and watchone christmas horror film after
listening to this, what do yousuggest?

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
if you're looking for something with some holiday
cheer, I would say Christmas,bloody Christmas.
If you want something steepedin some good lore, sorry.
If you want something steepedin accurate lore, go for
Something's in the Barn If youwant to.
You know, maybe learn a thingor two.

(01:07:01):
Hell yeah, something's in thebarn if you want to.
You know, maybe learn a thingor two.
Oh yeah, if you don't careabout accurate lore and just
love lore, right.
Uh, check out krampus from 2015.
I don't think it's a uhcanonically accurate krampus,
but holy crap, is he cool.
Uh, one of my favorite moviemonsters yeah yeah, nice.

(01:07:22):
If you're looking for somethingChristmassy but also just like a
very unique movie, check outit's a Wonderful Knife.
Please have watched it's aWonderful Life beforehand
because it's needed, butregardless, it's a great film.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Yeah, and then the two that I would just throw in
there as well would be RareExports from 2010 is so good,
very, very unique, and again,it's Finnish folklore, so it's
something if you haven't seen.
I think it'll be net new to alot of people.
It's not folklore that is verybroadly understood.
And the other one that I'llmention is Anna and the
Apocalypse from 2017, which isso fun.

(01:07:59):
It is a musical zombieChristmas movie.
The music's actually really,really good.
I saw it in theaters when itcame out and it's one of those
films that has stuck with me andI think it's a great, great,
great film, super fun to watch.
It feels festive and terrifyingand if you like musicals, it's
a no-brainer.
Well, my friends, happyholidays for those who celebrate

(01:08:19):
and, if not, and for those whodon't.
I hope you have a cozy and warmwinter season, as is the
tradition of the folklore thatwe have talked about today, we
are going to present four spookyholiday themed stories for you
that will come out right beforeChristmas Eve, so that you can
take part in the age oldtradition of listening to some
friends tell Christmas ghoststories on Christmas Eve.

(01:08:40):
Thank you so much for beinghere and we'll talk to you in a
few weeks.

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Episode 148 - The Dark Origins of Christmas Mythology and Monsters

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 148 - The Dark Origins of Christmas Mythology and Monsters