January 2, 2025 • 46 mins
Abby and Alan sit down with the mysterious Andy, to discuss modern day theories around alien encounters, UFOs, UAP and interdimensional beings.
Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord.
Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Kep @pilar.kep.
Follow us on TikTok, X, Instragram and YouTube.
Join the conversation on Discord. Support us on Patreon.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, before we get into the episode
today, I just wanted to tell youa little bit about what this
episode is.
So we sat down with our friendAndy, who is a very, very, very
smart human, and talked aboutthe science behind a lot of the
alien theories that are outthere.
So this episode delves intoquantum mechanics at a very
basic level.
(00:20):
It delves into differentpossibilities and theories
around what aliens andextraterrestrials or
ultra-terrestrials or UAP andUFOs could actually be.
And then it also talks a bitabout modern day conspiracy
theories and politics anddifferent things like that.
And the only reason I'm comingon here beforehand to preface is
because I personally thinkthere's a very thin line between
(00:42):
questioning the world around us, which I think is incredibly
important, and then alsobelieving full heartedly in a
conspiracy theory that's notreally founded in anything
factual.
And Andy makes a very profoundpoint one of many profound
points that he makes during thisinterview about how a lot of
these theories and things thatwe're going to talk about and
explore are things that arebelieved by people that we might
(01:03):
deem to be problematic in thisspace, and so we have to also
question these theories andquestion the different
possibilities while we areexamining the world around us,
and really the point of thisseries, beyond talking about
aliens, which is one of myfavorite things to do, is that
this is really a terrible timein the world, and we can all
agree on that, and there's a lotof powers that be that are
horrible, and the more that wecan question authority on that
(01:24):
and there's a lot of powers thatbe that are horrible and the
more that we can questionauthority or question what we
are told to believe as authority, I think is the better.
But I also think with thatcomes the caveat of doing really
solid research, knowing thatwith the tools that we have in
front of us, we'll probably notcrack all of these things on our
own, and so it's really what Ithink the conversation boils
down to is there's a lot ofpower in the exercise of
(01:46):
questioning and theorizing anddiscussing these things with
people, while also balanced withresearch and scientific
understanding and just knowingthat these things may remain
unknown forever.
We also decided to break thisconversation up into two parts
because it's so interesting andfascinating and a lot of it is a
bit over my head, so this wayyou'll have a little bit of time
(02:08):
between part one and part twoto kind of mull things over or
even research a little bit ifyou're interested, and then
we'll come back with part two.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy thisvery fascinating conversation
with one of the smartest peoplethat I know.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to another episode of the
(02:40):
lunatics radio hour podcast.
I am abby brank and today I amsitting here with my friend Andy
.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Hi Andy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I have been trying to get Andy on this podcast for
actually over a year now.
We're very excited that you'rehere.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So Andy is my friend, who is my go-to expert when it
comes to understanding UFOs,aliens theories, different
theories and scientific methodsfor us to take in all the
different evidence and spit outsomething that makes sense.
So today is a new kind ofepisode.
(03:17):
We're just going to have a verycasual conversation and Andy is
going to try to help meunderstand, and, in turn, all of
you understand, the vast andsprawling and crazy worlds of
UFOs, because it seems like nowis the time.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Okay.
So, andy, I'm just going to askyou a few questions to get into
it a little bit.
How did you first like?
Were you always really intoUFOs?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I wasn't and I don't think I had any sort of valence
one way or the other.
So, in other words, I didn'tthink about it.
I did not think about it.
If I was, for example, in asupermarket and I saw some
reference to aliens on the coverof a tabloid, I'd acknowledge
it, but my feelings toward itwould be pretty neutral.
So, yeah, I wasn't a UFO guy.
(04:04):
Certainly it just wasn't in myheadspace at all.
Until Until 2017, when anarticle came out in the New York
Times describing a secretprogram, secret department at
the Pentagon that was in chargeof researching UFOs.
This program was called AATIPAdvanced Aerospace Threat
(04:24):
Identification Program, run by aguy named Lou Elizondo or Luis
Elizondo.
And there it was.
It was 2017.
Trump had just been elected.
I was still feeling the Obamavibe, so the New York Times
still meant something to me andI thought, wow, the New York
Times is saying that UFOs arereal and they have a bunch of
folks who are pretty high up onthe record saying that this is a
(04:46):
case.
Why is nobody talking aboutthis?
Yeah, yeah, and that led youwhere it's interesting, because
it led me to think about whatwould my description of reality
be if such a thing were real?
It forced me to reconsider whatI thought reality was and in a
sense, it was spiritual.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah yeah, that's sort of how I feel about this
stuff too, and I also just thinkit's much more fun to choose to
live in a world where this kindof stuff exists.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, why not?
Well, yeah, I mean just toconsider that there are more
stars in the universe thangrains of sand on earth, and
each star has planets, just likeour star does.
I believe that folks don't letthemselves think about how vast
the universe is because theydon't want to think about the
implications that this was aninvitation to do so yeah, that's
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I love that.
Wow, what a poignant way tostart us off.
Thank you, let's see where itgoes now.
Huh, okay, so you start to getinterested in ufos and I think
we all I think, to be totallyhonest, a lot of at that point,
right, a lot of us who arealways maybe interested and
intrigued.
And we've read about some ofthe big Betty and Barney Hill,
right, like, who are watch theX-Files.
(05:52):
But suddenly it became like, ohshit, it's no longer a personal
choice whether or not youbelieve in this stuff, like
there's powers that be that thatwe trust you know, for better
or worse, that are confirmingthis, that we trust you know,
for better or worse, that areconfirming this.
So that's where you started.
Where you've ended from.
My observation is so deeply inthis that a lot of the time we
(06:12):
talk about it, I can't evenfollow what you're saying.
So how did we, how did you likewhat was kind of like the
gateway thing that keptintriguing you enough to become
so knowledgeable about thiswhole thing?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, and so okay.
So the other thing that cameout after the New York Times
article did was, you know,slides from the kinds of
presentations that ATIP would do.
And there was this famous slidenine, and this was, by the way,
you know, not some random thingon Reddit.
This was vouched for by thePentagon itself.
This is, and to take a stepback, generally, I, you know, I
(06:46):
didn't consider certainly not atthe time, and I don't think now
either anything that didn'thave some stamp of approval from
a reputable source, because Ididn't, certainly didn't want to
fall down the rabbit hole.
So slide nine comes out and ittalks about the five observables
.
So whenever a, what they thenrefer to as UAP unidentified
(07:07):
aerial phenomenon, phenomena asopposed to UFOs.
Five observables, so the fivekinds of things that these
things did, and it would includethings such as instant
acceleration, transmedium travel, no source of propulsion or
control surfaces, and so thenext step was understanding the
physics that would allow forsuch a thing to be possible.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Right, and this part is, through no fault of your own
, the part that's harder for meto understand because I'm just
not a science-y person, but Ithink it is probably at the core
of a lot of these definitions,right.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Right, absolutely.
You know there are differentways of describing the physics
of what is going on, and so, forexample, that experiencers or
folks who come into closeproximity to a UAP will report
like loss of time or their timeis running on a different clock
from somebody else's clock,outside a certain frame of
reference.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Can we talk about that?
Because to me that's one of themore intriguing parts of ufos
and aliens and people who havethese shared experiences yeah
and I think the time thing is agreat example to help illustrate
kind of what you're talkingabout.
Right, so like hypothetically,if I am somebody that had a an
encounter experience and I justlike an episode of the x-files,
(08:23):
right like I report a loss oftime, yeah what's what's
actually the mechanic like?
What's the belief that?
What's doing that to me?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
right, and so that has to do with special
relativity.
Okay, so essentially we allinhabit a frame of reference,
the.
The classic example is ifyou're standing outside and
you're watching a train go byand in the train is somebody
throwing a ball, that ball isgoing the speed of the train
plus the speed of the ball inthe train, but within the train
(08:52):
the ball is only going as fastas the ball.
And so the point is that howyou experience time has to do
with your frame of reference,because we're all moving at
different speeds.
But the thing that has aconstant speed is light.
So if you think about a clockwhere you can calculate a second
by having, let's say, like anelectron or a particle go from
(09:14):
one end to the other, if thatclock is moving, then, if you
think about it, it takes longerfor that light to get to the
other end, because the other endis sort of moving moving, you
know, at that speed away fromany point in time.
So the clock is going to tickmore slowly the faster that
you're going.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
So if the clock is physically moving, the clock
will tick more slowly.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
That's right.
That's right.
So anything that's moving willexperience time more slowly,
because the speed of light isthe same in all frames of
reference, but not everythingelse is so for the time that it
takes for a second to calculate,it's going to be different
depending on your frame ofreference and how fast you're
moving compared to somethingelse helpful examples.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I understand okay, so so and sorry.
One more question on theencounter piece yeah do people
and do you believe that ifthere's an encounter and time is
moving slowly, yeah it isbecause that person who has the
experience is being moved toanother place, or because just
being near this being changestime?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
well, back to the observables yeah, yeah
essentially they're observinginstant acceleration, and so
they bring in physicists andthey say, okay, what would be
some uh possibilities here interms of the physics that would
be needed to achieve this andthe consensus.
And, by the way, like I don'tbelieve that this is proved
necessarily, and I think, likethe, the more reputable people
will say you know, this is ourhypothesis, right?
(10:42):
So it's that this these craftscan exert a tremendous amount of
energy, like multiples of oursun or something to the effect
that they have a way of tappinginto what's called the vacuum
energy.
So like, at extremely smallscales, what seems like empty
space is actually packed with alot of energy, with a lot of
energy.
So these crafts can tap intothis vacuum energy and
(11:05):
essentially create so muchenergy that it bends the fabric
of space-time by creatingextreme gravity, and so they
basically are anti-gravity.
They have ways of controllingtheir gravitational field, and
so if you draw an experiencerinto your gravitational field,
then that person is technicallymoving at that the clock in that
(11:29):
gravitational field, which isrequiring the the experiencer to
be traveling more quickly thansomeone outside the
gravitational field because it'sit's bending space-time such
that he's falling right right,even if he's not from his own
perspective.
He's falling, which creates adifferential in speed which
causes that person's clock torun more slowly fascinating.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Wow okay, I never understood all that at all cool
right, yeah, it is superinteresting, it is yeah, it is
okay.
So where are you now?
Like what?
Yeah, I know there's likethere's miles of theories around
tall greys and this and thatand right and so many different
things.
Yeah, but tell us you know at ahigh level, like, where are you
with your belief of this andwhat do you think is like valid
(12:15):
and true and proven?
And what do you think is likevalid and true and proven and
what do you think is just yourtheory, you know?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
yeah, it's a lot of fun to speculate, certainly the
the traditional, uh idea oflet's call it a not necessarily
extraterrestrial, by the way.
So let's call it like anon-human intelligence.
And I say not necessarilyextraterrestrial because maybe
they're not coming from outerspace, maybe they're coming from
inner space what's inner space?
Well, essentially like.
(12:39):
We experience reality in fourdimensions yeah okay, but, you
know, setting aside thecontroversy around string theory
, in order for string theory tohave the not necessarily
predictive power, but let's saythe uh, the power to reduce to
different formulas that youfound elsewhere in the history
of physics, for all that math towork, you have to assume that
(12:59):
there are 10 dimensions, and soit's potentially that we, as
physical human beings, onlyexperience four out of maybe 10
or 11 dimensions, and so theymight be coming from one of
those dimensions, whatever thatmeans, and we could talk more
about that.
So that's actually like one wayto think about, or rather one
way that I've been thinkingabout.
This stuff is like okay, well,if these are interdimensional,
yeah, well, okay, there arelegitimate physics that, uh,
(13:22):
extremely smart people dedicatetheir lives to, and that physics
says that maybe there are 10dimensions yeah and so what
would that mean?
because if we exist at fourdimensions, then what exists at
five dimensions, at sixdimensions, at seven dimensions?
So that's how I startedthinking about it and that
immediately brought me to,initially, religion.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Okay, I have.
this is fascinating because aAlan is a major skeptic, right
One of the only times that Ihave ever broken through with
him is during our episode on themoth man, because everyone
believes, or the people whoreally study it believe, that
(14:02):
the mothman is aninterdimensional being, right,
and alan understood and was onboard for that.
Uh-huh.
And so this is immediatelywhat's coming to mind for me,
right, this idea of likeinterdimensionality and my
favorite quote from you know,everything with the mothman is,
and something that I think, howI think of the paranormal in
general, and all of this thatyou can't explain physics to a
cockroach and with all of this,we are the cockroach.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And it's fun to hypothesize, but it's so beyond
what we could even comprehend.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Right, well, yeah, check this out.
I mean like here's.
So like, in thinking about this, it led me to insights such as
the following.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
We experience reality because we exist at a certain
scale.
For example, if we were at asubatomic scale, then we would
be subject to quantum mechanicswhere nothing is deterministic
right.
When you get to a small enoughscale, any particle is in
multiple, is in superposition,it can be many things in many
places at once.
It doesn't necessarily exist,yet it's not a one or a zero,
(15:02):
it's both a one and a zero atthe same time.
So no information exists atthat scale.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, right, I guess I believe you.
I mean this is so interesting.
So just to clarify, so like,because we, if we at that scale,
if you, if humanity existed, ifour reality was at that scale,
right a?
It sounds like we would.
We wouldn't be a one or a zeroright, we would know what was up
or down right, but also like wewould have no ability to
(15:27):
comprehend or think in level wecan, because even the size of
our brains right, to reallysimplify it at this scale allows
for it.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Is that right?
That's right, which which meansessentially that particles have
to organize themselves at acertain scale in order to start
computing right reality wow andexperiencing it fascinating yeah
, which obviously can be smallenough for like microorganisms,
but it can't be smaller thanlike subatomic.
Yeah, okay so what's interestingis if you think about okay,
(15:56):
well, well, that's us Right,maybe we had to exist at a
certain scale or develop bodiesto experience reality.
But because our brains areevolved for survival, our brains
evolved in such a way that wecan only experience a limited
amount of the reality because weexist at a certain scale.
For example, quantum mechanicsis completely not intuitive for
(16:17):
us.
We can barely explain it interms of barely describe what it
does, because it's socounterintuitive.
We think something either is oris not.
This is sort of like all stagesof becoming the thing or all
possible outcomes all togetherat the same time.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And I know I cut you off.
So what do you mean?
This makes you think aboutreligion.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The first thing that occurred to me was we have a
word for non-human intelligencealready.
It's very odd to me that peopledon't make this connection more
often, more quickly.
Non-human intelligence is God.
That's what God is.
God is a superior non-humanintelligence.
Sure, yes, and so okay, thingsin the sky.
(17:01):
Then, of course, in the Bible,the wheels of Ezekiel.
But the different phenomenathat were described in the Bible
could suddenly be explained ifyou just assumed that it was
UFOs all along.
Oh, I love this.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I love where this is going.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, and so then when you say, for example, like,
like, why should we beskeptical?
Now, I'm not, by the way, I'mnot like I'm very spiritual
because of all the things thatI'm describing, but I'm not, I'm
not part of any religion and Igrew up Catholic, but so I'm,
I'm, I'm fascinated by theology,but it's more of an academic
exercise, so please indulge mehere.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
But right, why shouldn't we take?
Let's posit that maybe weshould take seriously the Bible
as testimonials from real peoplein history.
Yeah, let's say that maybe theyactually recorded history,
right.
And so if you take seriouslythat it could be someone
describing something that theysaw, it's very easy to say, okay
, well, maybe they were seeingUFOs, sure.
(17:53):
And then you can go all sortsof great places from there.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, I bet there's also.
I'm sure you've already gonedown this rabbit hole, but
there's a lot of really greatpaintings from like the medieval
times that depict.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
UFOs.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah.
It's one of my favorite thingsto look at on the internet.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, yeah Right, and then you get into all sorts of
interesting theories.
So, for example, I startedinterpreting the fall as having
to do with being stuck in agravitational field.
Tell us what the fall is.
Yes, so the fall, like you know, genesis in the Bible and,
essentially, god.
It's essentially the storyabout of Adam and Eve, who, are,
you know, live in a paradise.
(18:31):
They are allowed to live inthis paradise for as long as
they don't eat from a particular, I believe, the tree of
knowledge.
If I'm not, mistaken.
And of course they do.
And then they quote, unquote,fall.
And so immediately I thoughtlike, okay, well, what do we
mean by fall?
We could mean that we'refalling from a higher dimension,
(18:52):
because maybe in 10 dimensions,maybe we would experience
things so much differently thatit would be effectively paradise
.
And so there's something whereyou're falling dimensionally.
Now we're limited to living infour dimensions, which means we
experience time, we experiencedeath.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Do we know and this is a very silly question
probably what the 10 supposeddimensions are?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So no, but I've seen attempts at it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
And why 10?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
10, because I don't know the math behind it.
Essentially, the idea behindstring theory which is falling
out of favor is my understanding, not that I understand it
terribly much, but essentiallyit's literally string these
strings at a super small scale.
Depending on how they vibrate,they generate different
particles and then thoseparticles combine to become
(19:43):
atoms, combine to becomemolecules and so on and so forth
and essentially for the math towork the strings have to
vibrate into 10 differentdimensions.
So I guess if you're thinkingabout like vectors and you know
the X, y, z, they're adding tothat space.
It's normalized in a sense inthe math where, like all that
(20:05):
complexity that's happeningspatially is quantified somehow
in some notation.
So it's like you can likeextrapolate from it the math
works if it vibrates in 10dimensions.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Got it Okay, so what are our guesses of what the
dimensions are?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
yeah, so I've seen attempts at it.
Here's my attempt yes, okaywell, I'm going to start at four
.
Okay, and so in four dimensionswe live in a cube, but the cube
is changing within itself yeahum, and that.
That's how it, what it lookslike, if you, if you watch, like
an illustration of what thefourth dimension might look like
.
It's essentially like I thinkit's a tetrahedron, if I'm not
(20:39):
mistaken, but it's essentially acube.
That's kind of changing withinitself, but we're in three
spatial dimensions and we'rechanging within ourselves as a
function of time, which is thefourth dimension.
Space-time are related, hencewhy, basically bending the
fabric of space-time withgravity and resulting in things
falling along the vector of thebend in the fabric means that
(21:04):
they are moving faster andtherefore their clocks are
running more slowly.
Okay, in the fifth dimension wehave to think about it's
essentially if you've ever seenInterstellar I have Okay, well,
so that movie explores thiswhere what we experience as time
is potentially itself a spatialdimension we just can't
experience.
Okay, I understand that Rightand so the fun scene of Matthew
(21:26):
McConaughey banging at the backof the bookshelf, yeah, that's
all based on this kind of idea.
Okay, so that's kind of thefifth dimension, where, if
suddenly, like, what weexperience as time is actually
in itself a physical dimension,then that means that potentially
, like, you can exploredifferent parts of it, which
possibly mean, like, differentpossibilities.
(21:46):
Sure, sure, and that's arguably,I mean my, in my intuition says
that what's happening inquantum mechanics is essentially
like a higher dimensional viewor experience of time, such that
you actually have all timelines, all possible timelines, as one
thing wow yeah, and that's likewhat's in the fifth dimension
got it okay wild cap this off bysaying certainly the one one
(22:11):
popular explanation of quantummechanics is many worlds yeah so
, essentially, like, all thosepossibilities exist at the same
time in multiple universes, kindof a.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Thing and right, and so the parallel timelines that
kind of stuff, yeah right oh, Isee, okay, so I think I
understand.
So five is kind of like theidea of, and then six is that
all of those different ideascoexist in many timelines and
universes, at the same time indifferent places and whatever
Fascinating, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So I think let's take a step back and I'm going to do
my best to explain quantummechanics, which For the people
like me who are writers and notvery good with Excel.
That's how I make my living.
Folks spreadsheets.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Okay, Andy, so explain to us quantum mechanics.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
All right, yeah, I'm going to do my best, because
it's really hard to do.
I've been watching YouTubevideos about it for several
years and it's still the problem.
The challenge is that it's notintuitive.
So, but the famous experimentthat demonstrated quantum
physics was called the doubleslit experiment.
Let's say you have a littlelet's just call it like a gun,
and the gun shoots one electron,and it shoots it at a wall that
(23:24):
has two slits, and so what youwould expect is that the
particle that you're firing fromthis gun is either going to
miss the slits or else gothrough one, or else go through
the other one, and you're firingmany, many, many electrons.
So what you would expect to seeis that once they hit the
(23:45):
measuring device on the otherside of the wall, past the slits
, what you would expect to berecorded would be two vertical
lines.
Sure, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Instead, what you see is five vertical lines, and the
reason is that the electronthat was fired from the gun
exists at all positions where itcould possibly be at the same
time, and so if you think abouta wave that has to go through
two slits, it gets I guess you'dcall it refracted or something
(24:16):
along those lines and so then itinterferes with itself, and
that's the interference patternwhere, for example, the crests
and valleys meet, and theycancel each other out, and the
things that don't cancel eachother out are the things that
remain, and so the things thatremain end up making five lines
on the measuring device, fivelines on the measuring device.
(24:41):
And so the explanation is thatthat one electron exists in all
possible positions at the sametime until it's measured, and
then it's only in one of thosepositions, the most probable one
.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Oh, so it's probability.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And that's where the intuition especially starts to
break down, because the maththat is used to describe how
that wave right, you think it'sabout the particle, but also
because it's in all possiblepositions at the same time, it
forms essentially like a wave.
Sure, right.
The math that you use toexplain how that wave propagates
(25:12):
leaves you with the same mathas probability.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
And that's essentially what you were saying
when you were explaining thefifth dimension.
Right, that's right that thingsexist in the same place at the
same time.
There's some probability, space.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
All these possibilities exist at the same
time.
The debate and the thing thatnobody can figure out is you
know what happens when it'scalled, when the wave collapses
to the most probable point inspace, whereas previously it was
at all possible points in spaceat the same time, but it
collapses to one point in space?
What happens to all those otherpossibilities?
(25:43):
So there's the many worldsexplanation, which says that
each of those possibilitiesindividually continue to exist
in their own branches of theuniverse of reality, or there's
interpretation, where it can'tbe random.
There must be something thatwould explain why it collapses
in one point and not the others.
But people really struggle tounderstand what happens to those
(26:04):
possibilities.
Where do those possibilitiesexist?
Because they do exist at aquantum level.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Can I ask you another silly kindergarten level
question about this?
This, okay, so we're talkingabout, in your example, like an
electron right.
How does that scale up tohumanity?
Like, how do we think, yeah,that you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Like, help us take the leap yeah, okay, now this is
where my, uh, my understandingof physics is is obviously
ultimately extremely limited.
I'm aman, but there's somethingto the effect of there's the
standard model Basically tellsyou, there are I don't know how
many I can visualize it, and Idon't know 16 or so, maybe fewer
than that elementary particles,out of which everything else
(26:48):
comes to be through combinationsof these things.
And so an electron is, Ibelieve it's the combination of
two of those particles, butessentially these things come
together, they become entangledwith each other, which means
that they interact.
In their interaction, they willgive off light that may cause
another interaction, or, if itstrikes a particular particle,
(27:09):
it might split into twoelementary particles, and so all
these interactions arehappening.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
And these things are coming together and they're
becoming more complex over time.
Right, all these particlesexisting in space are
interacting with each other andcombining with each other in a
more orderly way over theevolution of the universe, right
to get back to the space aliensyeah, uh, you.
One thing I wonder about iswhether these beings are some
(27:37):
self-organization of particlesthat interact with each other in
such a way that it's consciousand so it's existing at this
sort of like.
It's all around us, it's partof our reality and it's sentient
.
So that's another possibility.
And, of course, just to getback to the end of space, or
(27:59):
there's the extraterrestrialpossibility or some combination
thereof.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Or some interdimensional alternate
universe that sometimes bleedsthrough.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, exactly right.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, yeah, so I'm a little late to the party here.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, hi, you know, I know about the first three
dimensions absolutely exactlyright, yeah, yeah, so I'm a
little late to the party here.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, hey, man now, hi, uh, you know, I, I know
about the first three dimensionsand we're already up to the
fifth, so like wow.
But I absolutely love sci-fiand it's so interesting how a
lot of times, when there's likeworld building and they're
talking about, uh, likeinteracting with some kind of
like new alien race, everythingis usually kept still on like
(28:38):
the same plane, same dimension,because once you go into these
higher level concepts, it getsso cloudy.
Yeah, so so fast, yeah, um, sothe way you were able to just
like break it down was likePretty cool.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I now understand interstellar and glitches in the
matrix and you know a thousandother things yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Well, because, based off your description, you're
saying like well, what aboutwhen other universes bleed
through?
Now we're just talking aboutother probabilities.
Right, possibly interacting,that's right, with ours, that's
correct.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's canceling ours out like a way, a crest on the
wave.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
There is not necessarily a delineation
between that's right.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
See, that's heavy.
That's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
No, I, I, it's exactly right.
And so, like you know what,where we began this conversation
was you know what did I do nextafter that New York times
article?
I started thinking like thisand I think, like, regardless of
whether what's being reportedis real, or maybe it's a psyop,
or maybe it's a disinformationcampaign from a foreign
(29:42):
government that wants toradicalize young men, for
example, and give them a sort ofa cultish, you know, for
example, what the January 6thshaman?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I heard him give a very, very similarly elucidated
explanation of interdimensionalbeings, and so I listen to that.
I go.
Ok, I wonder, potentially, isthis is like an act, like active
measures by, for like, byRussian intelligence, to
basically like radicalize?
Oh, it's the cover up, right?
Oh, the deep state is nottelling you the truth about
(30:16):
aliens.
It's time to weaponize yourcuriosity is one of the uh, the
slogans.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Um, and so I'm also skeptical at the same time I say
I I've always been like veryskeptical when it comes to, you
know, government conspiraciesand everything you know there's.
There's generally at leastavailable some kind of easy
explanation that doesn't involvesome kind of grandiose scheme,
right, right.
So the one thing that I can'tget out of my head was just this
one comment that I read thatsaid the government is going to
(30:45):
keep throwing absolutelyridiculous stuff at us to make
us so exhausted.
Correct that by the time theyactually want to start
implementing real things, we'retoo tired to care.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, and that's right.
That's another one.
I think there's somethingsimilar, if not exactly that.
The conspiracy theory is calledProject Blue Beam and some
whistleblower comes forward andsays that there's a plan to
rewrite the history of the humanrace and to tell you that there
are space aliens and likethat's.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
you know, graham, uh, graham hancock andy I, I
actually we don't have to jumpthe shark too soon but, I do
think you have some thoughts onand I've talked to you a lot
about your thoughts on politicstoday and how that relates to
all of this.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yes, so there's potentially a couple of things
going on.
So to take a step back, UFOsare political, Sure, Necessarily
, Because one of the reasons whyfolks in the know again
reputable people credentialed.
Everything else will saysomething like the problem is
that the government doesn't knowwhat it is or what to do about
(31:55):
it, and that's going to causepeople to lose faith in their
government or it's going tocause people to form cults.
So it's called catastrophicdisclosure.
If tomorrow you walked outsideand there were flying saucers
flying around in the sky, youwould go into what they refer to
as like ontological shock.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
It would cause like mass chaos and panic.
We'd be like what do I knowabout?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
anything anymore.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Yeah, right Like ontological shock.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Ontological shock, in other words, like a sudden
realization or insight into yourreality that you're not
prepared to handle.
I see, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Right, like your, like existential crisis, to like
the max.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, like if we're.
You know, if we're seriousabout interdimensional beings or
different universes interactingwith each other, then you know,
imagine you're walking outsideand a UFO materialized out of
seemingly thin air.
That would call into questionwhat, what space is, if
something can materialize there.
Are we living in a simulation?
(32:54):
Are we a hologram?
This, that and the other thing,the very thing that we paper
over on a daily basis byenslaving ourselves to our
employers.
We want to not think aboutthese ontological issues and we
would suddenly be confrontedwith them, and that would be a
national security problem.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, and that's why there is some thing to be said,
I suppose, or there is somelogic potentially behind these
coverups and the slow release ofinformation around, like
obviously the government knowsmuch more than we know about all
this and they may perhaps gotto a point where they felt like
they needed to start tricklingit into society because they
(33:32):
think there could be somethingthat's going to reveal itself,
and if they don't slowly trickleit in, everyone will have a
mental breakdown.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Correct, correct, and I think they've had a timeline
for this for some time.
And so, for example, like Ithink there are there's
documentation Just check me IfI'm wrong, I don't mean to the
Pentagon has worked with, likeHollywood, to basically get
different stories out there.
So like Arrival, for example,right, basically get different
stories out there.
So like arrival, for example,sure, right, where it's like,
(33:58):
well, because one theory is likethese things might be crypto
terrestrial, there's a, there'sanother one crypto terrestrial,
where they're living on theearth, we just don't come across
them.
So, for example, the easy thingto say of we know more about
outer space than we do our ownoceans right so like miles and
miles and miles deep into theocean the mariana trench right
are there?
(34:19):
are there intelligent beingsthere, and have they developed
some sort of technology?
So are we dealing with squid?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
right, right, possibly, yeah right whoa.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Potentially there's some timeline.
Maybe they know somehow thatyou know who knows?
2025 sounds like a good as anycandidate for the year in which.
So that's Project 2025.
Right, just bringing the worlddown.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Okay, and so, andy, let me ask you this yeah.
There's that, which I thinktotally makes a ton of sense,
right as a theory.
Yeah, you and I have alsotalked about though for instance
at the time that we arerecording this which full
disclosure is in the past, rightIndeed.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Time is relative Exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
There are tons and tons of drones hovering over the
state of New Jersey, and youand I spent a while today
talking about that and talkingabout what those could be, and
you told me some of yourtheories what those could be,
and you told me some of yourtheories and I think that led us
to a conversation about, okay,let me boil down your theory and
you'll keep me honest, thatthese are us government machines
(35:23):
that are being redistributedacross the East coast because
there could be world war threeand you know, on its way.
So that's your theory.
Okay, and then my thought wasokay, so, if we have, and I said
to you but does the fbi?
Yeah, really not know that?
And you said I don't think thatthey do, there's a higher
(35:43):
government power.
And so I said, okay, there's ahigher government power, like
massive tech money, massive.
Yeah, how do?
How does something like trumpfit into this?
And that's where I would lovefor you to to tell everyone kind
of your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Sure, okay, so I'll also mention that.
You know just as this drone andstuff is happening.
Today I read that the thesecretary general of NATO
basically said that NATO needsto prepare for World War III.
So he made that declarationtoday.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Oh yeah, it's not something you want to hear.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
No, certainly not, but I think we all need to hear
it.
I think we need to again to thepoint about being exhausted,
being wrapped up in differentnarratives that we create in our
culture, that we also consumethrough our screens.
Yeah, if we can just drop theveil and kind of talk about
what's really going on, yeah.
And not be avoidant about it.
There's all this going on inthe background.
(36:35):
Let's say World War III, allthese things, all these world
events are happening, and we'llreturn to those in a moment.
But as far as Trump isconcerned Trump, in my mind, the
only way I can understand Trumpnow, given his relationship
with Elon Musk, is that Trump isan avatar for oligarchs that
are following the Russianplaybook, and essentially it's
(36:55):
these billionaires yeah and notto.
I hesitated there because it'sbecome a bit of an epithet to
say billionaires and it, I thinkit like, has lost a little bit
of its meaning.
I'm talking about folks whohave so much money that they can
do whatever they want, anytime,sure, okay, without any
limitation.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And you really have to wonder what that does to
somebody.
Sure, do.
And so you have these folks.
And in Russia they figured outthat if you, mafia style,
basically find a demagogue thatcan control the population
politically, then you canmaximize your freedom, because
you can maximize how much moneyyou have and how much you can
(37:34):
get away with.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Right, you don't have to spend your time dealing with
the populace, because that'ssomeone else's job.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
That's right, exactly , and also like you can do
whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, you have infinite money.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Okay Now what we're finding ourselves dealing with
today, at our point in history,so technological advance.
It turns out that theseoligarchs are technological
oligarchs and they subscribe toa philosophy or they participate
in a movement.
And this is, if you'relistening and you take one thing
(38:04):
away.
I hope it's this.
Everybody should Google theTechno-Optimist Manifesto by
Mark Andreessen, of AndreessenHorowitz.
Ok, so no slouch.
This guy is sort of aquintessential, the epitome of
the venture capitalist, the guythat inspires the culture around
venture capitalism and tech.
(38:24):
He wrote a very Nietzscheanmanifesto where we are
technological supermen andessentially like we need to
accelerate, we need toaccelerate, we need to move
faster, we need to removeregulation.
We need to remove regulation.
We have to find out what thegovernment knows about so-called
UFOs, because whether youbelieve in aliens or not, the
(38:45):
irreducible fact is that thereare there's some physics that
the government knows about thatthey're potentially using to
build their own technology, orelse they're observing another
extraterrestrial technology.
But there's some physics thatthe government knows about that
they're keeping secret and thesetechno optimists want to get
access to this physics becauseit will enable them to
(39:09):
accelerate and, for example,become, make humans
interplanetary and all thatstuff.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
That sounds not so bad.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Well, right, exactly, and so you know, honestly, it's
a silver lining.
The problem is that you knowany form of well.
My interpretation of fascism isif there is a major
technological development in asociety, for example like the
Industrial Revolution in thelate 19th century, then a
society basically has tocompletely remodel its economy
(39:40):
and the way that it organizesitself, and in order, for
example, to build up giantcities with trains and all the
sorts of industrial mechanismsthat you need to have a modern
economy, you might turn tofascism in order to force your
population to do that.
I think we're at a similarmoment in history now, where
there's a new form of fascismthat is trying to figure out how
(40:02):
to restructure society to dealwith those new physics and or
artificial intelligence.
Another possible explanation forUAP Artificial intelligence.
That's right, how Well.
Because if artificialintelligence is ultimately a
computation, the question thatone needs to ask oneself is
(40:23):
whether computations happen atsome scale that we don't have
access to.
So, for example, if particlesare sort of computing something
at some scale that we don't haveaccess to, potentially into
other dimensions that we don'thave access to, potentially into
other dimensions that we don'thave access to, is there some
computation.
That's happening.
That effectively generates aconsciousness, and so that's
(40:44):
another explanation for UAP.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Fascinating.
And to just make sure Iunderstand kind of the point on
Trump a little bit too, the ideais that Trump, that the
government holds and youmentioned this earlier to me
that perhaps this, you know,physics was discovered during,
like the Manhattan Project, andthen it was put away because it
was so powerful and scary, andeven more so than the bomb right
(41:08):
, and so that existed since thattime and it's being held secret
.
And so if you get Trump in aposition of power, if he's armed
with Elon Musk, he could accessthat because it's being held
secret.
And so if you get Trump in aposition of power, if he's armed
with Elon Musk, he could accessthat because it's a
government-owned thing.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
And it's specifically locked away, they say, in the
Department of Energy.
And so it's interesting.
I think, as of today, thursday,december 12th, I don't believe
that Trump has nominated anyoneyet for Secretary of Energy, but
stay tuned, because that mighttell you something.
Depending on who he puts there,right, I might tell you
something about what he wantsout of there, because the um,
(41:42):
yeah, the speculation is that,like the department, I think of
how strange it is to call partof your government the
department of energy, right,what are we talking about?
Energy?
What is energy?
What are we?
Whoa?
Yeah, of course, the departmentof energy.
Wait a minute.
What's energy?
What are we talking about?
What does that mean?
Energy?
What does that word mean?
We're talking about nuclearenergy, but it's not just
nuclear energy, it's theresearch into energy, right, how
(42:03):
to find energies in seeminglyempty space, right, the vacuum
energy, right.
Or how to harness energy suchthat you could potentially bend
space-time Right, potentiallybend space-time Right.
And essentially, if you thinkabout, think about a flat piece
of paper, yeah, and let's saythat flat piece of paper, right,
that represents a plane.
At one side of the plane, youhave point A.
(42:23):
On the other side of the plane,you have point B, something
needs to go from point A topoint B.
That's a certain distance.
But if you have enough energyto bend the plane, then points A
and B come closer together andyou can move more quickly.
But from someone who doesn'thave uh, isn't within that frame
of reference is creating agravitational field to bend
(42:43):
space-time in that way?
You're not there, so you don'tsee it.
So, from your point of view,something accelerates
instantaneously right right, andso one of the things that
people observe, these things, uh, as doing, it's kind of like a
slingshot right when, like itlooks.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
No, because it's not moving.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (43:02):
So a slingshot would be an acceleration and a stop
right.
It moves really really fast.
It's not moving really reallyfast.
The space is moving around youand stuff.
Yes, exactly right, exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And so at the Department of of energy, they
are exploring how do you controlenergy in such a way that you
can create these warps inspace-time, such that you can
get from one point to anotherand we know that they're working
on this thing.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
Well, I mean, how can they not?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
you know, this is the type of thing where, like this,
has been talked about inscience fiction, since, you know
, early 1900s.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
That's right.
And so, yeah, here we have.
Say, they stumbled acrosssomething that it looks to be
tangentially applicable to thefield.
Right, but it's not perfect.
So instead, yeah, maybe theyfigured out a way to move an
electron, you know, from point ato point b by folding
space-time.
That's right, but in thefolding, uh, say it's, it's not
(43:56):
just like harmless, say itcauses everything that folds to
just get destroyed.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
That's right, and wouldn't the aliens be mad about
that?
So I mean that's anotherexplanation, for example, of
like why, yeah, absolutely, whyum?
Why ufos um tend to be foundaround our um nuclear?
Assets right, and so oneexplanation is they don't want
us blowing up anything anymore.
Because what we don't realizeis that when we detonate a
nuclear bomb, you'reconcentrating an incredible
(44:23):
amount of energy in a smallamount of space, which means
you're going to bend that spaceand who knows what you're doing
to the poor folks at differentscales.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Well, what if?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
They might say hey, wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
We're on the verge of world war three right that's
right, just as trump is about tohit the button.
Yeah, aliens, come down andsave us well.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
So I believe that that is a plausible explanation
and, of course, as soon as um,you know, as soon as I find
myself thinking in such a let'scall it like a salvationist way,
sure, immediately I go red flag, wait a minute, oh that's too.
Wait a minute, oh, that's toowishful, but that was where I
went originally with it, whichis like, okay, well, now let's
(45:03):
get back to the Bible.
We got things that people werecalling angels were actually
UFOs, and the UFOs wereparticipating in the evolution
of human society, because thegoal of let's assume that these
are benevolent.
And so, again, in the contextof the Bible, that they're
trying to save us, and in thecontext of the fall if we take
(45:24):
the fall to mean a fall in termsof dimensions, to a lower
dimension where we experiencetime and death, then the
solution is they need to teachus the technology to access
higher dimensions.
Right, and so, essentially,they're developing society in
such a way that we developtechnology, including by
instigating wars betweenreligions.
(45:45):
Quote, unquote, different setsof UFOs.
So we fight, we develop ourtechnology, we fight, we develop
our technology to the pointwhere we develop artificial
intelligence.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Okay, so we're going to put a pin in the conversation
with Andy there for now, asthey say, and we're going to
come back next episode and pickthings up where we left off.
I hope everyone is staying welland staying safe and we will
talk to you very soon.
Hello everyone, before we get into the episode
today, I just wanted to tell youa little bit about what this
episode is.
So we sat down with our friendAndy, who is a very, very, very
smart human, and talked aboutthe science behind a lot of the
alien theories that are outthere.
So this episode delves intoquantum mechanics at a very
basic level.
(00:20):
It delves into differentpossibilities and theories
around what aliens andextraterrestrials or
ultra-terrestrials or UAP andUFOs could actually be.
And then it also talks a bitabout modern day conspiracy
theories and politics anddifferent things like that.
And the only reason I'm comingon here beforehand to preface is
because I personally thinkthere's a very thin line between
(00:42):
questioning the world around us, which I think is incredibly
important, and then alsobelieving full heartedly in a
conspiracy theory that's notreally founded in anything
factual.
And Andy makes a very profoundpoint one of many profound
points that he makes during thisinterview about how a lot of
these theories and things thatwe're going to talk about and
explore are things that arebelieved by people that we might
(01:03):
deem to be problematic in thisspace, and so we have to also
question these theories andquestion the different
possibilities while we areexamining the world around us,
and really the point of thisseries, beyond talking about
aliens, which is one of myfavorite things to do, is that
this is really a terrible timein the world, and we can all
agree on that, and there's a lotof powers that be that are
horrible, and the more that wecan question authority on that
(01:24):
and there's a lot of powers thatbe that are horrible and the
more that we can questionauthority or question what we
are told to believe as authority, I think is the better.
But I also think with thatcomes the caveat of doing really
solid research, knowing thatwith the tools that we have in
front of us, we'll probably notcrack all of these things on our
own, and so it's really what Ithink the conversation boils
down to is there's a lot ofpower in the exercise of
(01:46):
questioning and theorizing anddiscussing these things with
people, while also balanced withresearch and scientific
understanding and just knowingthat these things may remain
unknown forever.
We also decided to break thisconversation up into two parts
because it's so interesting andfascinating and a lot of it is a
bit over my head, so this wayyou'll have a little bit of time
(02:08):
between part one and part twoto kind of mull things over or
even research a little bit ifyou're interested, and then
we'll come back with part two.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy thisvery fascinating conversation
with one of the smartest peoplethat I know.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to another episode of the
(02:40):
lunatics radio hour podcast.
I am abby brank and today I amsitting here with my friend Andy
.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Hi Andy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I have been trying to get Andy on this podcast for
actually over a year now.
We're very excited that you'rehere.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So Andy is my friend, who is my go-to expert when it
comes to understanding UFOs,aliens theories, different
theories and scientific methodsfor us to take in all the
different evidence and spit outsomething that makes sense.
So today is a new kind ofepisode.
(03:17):
We're just going to have a verycasual conversation and Andy is
going to try to help meunderstand, and, in turn, all of
you understand, the vast andsprawling and crazy worlds of
UFOs, because it seems like nowis the time.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Okay.
So, andy, I'm just going to askyou a few questions to get into
it a little bit.
How did you first like?
Were you always really intoUFOs?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I wasn't and I don't think I had any sort of valence
one way or the other.
So, in other words, I didn'tthink about it.
I did not think about it.
If I was, for example, in asupermarket and I saw some
reference to aliens on the coverof a tabloid, I'd acknowledge
it, but my feelings toward itwould be pretty neutral.
So, yeah, I wasn't a UFO guy.
(04:04):
Certainly it just wasn't in myheadspace at all.
Until Until 2017, when anarticle came out in the New York
Times describing a secretprogram, secret department at
the Pentagon that was in chargeof researching UFOs.
This program was called AATIPAdvanced Aerospace Threat
(04:24):
Identification Program, run by aguy named Lou Elizondo or Luis
Elizondo.
And there it was.
It was 2017.
Trump had just been elected.
I was still feeling the Obamavibe, so the New York Times
still meant something to me andI thought, wow, the New York
Times is saying that UFOs arereal and they have a bunch of
folks who are pretty high up onthe record saying that this is a
(04:46):
case.
Why is nobody talking aboutthis?
Yeah, yeah, and that led youwhere it's interesting, because
it led me to think about whatwould my description of reality
be if such a thing were real?
It forced me to reconsider whatI thought reality was and in a
sense, it was spiritual.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah yeah, that's sort of how I feel about this
stuff too, and I also just thinkit's much more fun to choose to
live in a world where this kindof stuff exists.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, why not?
Well, yeah, I mean just toconsider that there are more
stars in the universe thangrains of sand on earth, and
each star has planets, just likeour star does.
I believe that folks don't letthemselves think about how vast
the universe is because theydon't want to think about the
implications that this was aninvitation to do so yeah, that's
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I love that.
Wow, what a poignant way tostart us off.
Thank you, let's see where itgoes now.
Huh, okay, so you start to getinterested in ufos and I think
we all I think, to be totallyhonest, a lot of at that point,
right, a lot of us who arealways maybe interested and
intrigued.
And we've read about some ofthe big Betty and Barney Hill,
right, like, who are watch theX-Files.
(05:52):
But suddenly it became like, ohshit, it's no longer a personal
choice whether or not youbelieve in this stuff, like
there's powers that be that thatwe trust you know, for better
or worse, that are confirmingthis, that we trust you know,
for better or worse, that areconfirming this.
So that's where you started.
Where you've ended from.
My observation is so deeply inthis that a lot of the time we
(06:12):
talk about it, I can't evenfollow what you're saying.
So how did we, how did you likewhat was kind of like the
gateway thing that keptintriguing you enough to become
so knowledgeable about thiswhole thing?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, and so okay.
So the other thing that cameout after the New York Times
article did was, you know,slides from the kinds of
presentations that ATIP would do.
And there was this famous slidenine, and this was, by the way,
you know, not some random thingon Reddit.
This was vouched for by thePentagon itself.
This is, and to take a stepback, generally, I, you know, I
(06:46):
didn't consider certainly not atthe time, and I don't think now
either anything that didn'thave some stamp of approval from
a reputable source, because Ididn't, certainly didn't want to
fall down the rabbit hole.
So slide nine comes out and ittalks about the five observables
.
So whenever a, what they thenrefer to as UAP unidentified
(07:07):
aerial phenomenon, phenomena asopposed to UFOs.
Five observables, so the fivekinds of things that these
things did, and it would includethings such as instant
acceleration, transmedium travel, no source of propulsion or
control surfaces, and so thenext step was understanding the
physics that would allow forsuch a thing to be possible.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Right, and this part is, through no fault of your own
, the part that's harder for meto understand because I'm just
not a science-y person, but Ithink it is probably at the core
of a lot of these definitions,right.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Right, absolutely.
You know there are differentways of describing the physics
of what is going on, and so, forexample, that experiencers or
folks who come into closeproximity to a UAP will report
like loss of time or their timeis running on a different clock
from somebody else's clock,outside a certain frame of
reference.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Can we talk about that?
Because to me that's one of themore intriguing parts of ufos
and aliens and people who havethese shared experiences yeah
and I think the time thing is agreat example to help illustrate
kind of what you're talkingabout.
Right, so like hypothetically,if I am somebody that had a an
encounter experience and I justlike an episode of the x-files,
(08:23):
right like I report a loss oftime, yeah what's what's
actually the mechanic like?
What's the belief that?
What's doing that to me?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
right, and so that has to do with special
relativity.
Okay, so essentially we allinhabit a frame of reference,
the.
The classic example is ifyou're standing outside and
you're watching a train go byand in the train is somebody
throwing a ball, that ball isgoing the speed of the train
plus the speed of the ball inthe train, but within the train
(08:52):
the ball is only going as fastas the ball.
And so the point is that howyou experience time has to do
with your frame of reference,because we're all moving at
different speeds.
But the thing that has aconstant speed is light.
So if you think about a clockwhere you can calculate a second
by having, let's say, like anelectron or a particle go from
(09:14):
one end to the other, if thatclock is moving, then, if you
think about it, it takes longerfor that light to get to the
other end, because the other endis sort of moving moving, you
know, at that speed away fromany point in time.
So the clock is going to tickmore slowly the faster that
you're going.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
So if the clock is physically moving, the clock
will tick more slowly.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
That's right.
That's right.
So anything that's moving willexperience time more slowly,
because the speed of light isthe same in all frames of
reference, but not everythingelse is so for the time that it
takes for a second to calculate,it's going to be different
depending on your frame ofreference and how fast you're
moving compared to somethingelse helpful examples.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I understand okay, so so and sorry.
One more question on theencounter piece yeah do people
and do you believe that ifthere's an encounter and time is
moving slowly, yeah it isbecause that person who has the
experience is being moved toanother place, or because just
being near this being changestime?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
well, back to the observables yeah, yeah
essentially they're observinginstant acceleration, and so
they bring in physicists andthey say, okay, what would be
some uh possibilities here interms of the physics that would
be needed to achieve this andthe consensus.
And, by the way, like I don'tbelieve that this is proved
necessarily, and I think, likethe, the more reputable people
will say you know, this is ourhypothesis, right?
(10:42):
So it's that this these craftscan exert a tremendous amount of
energy, like multiples of oursun or something to the effect
that they have a way of tappinginto what's called the vacuum
energy.
So like, at extremely smallscales, what seems like empty
space is actually packed with alot of energy, with a lot of
energy.
So these crafts can tap intothis vacuum energy and
(11:05):
essentially create so muchenergy that it bends the fabric
of space-time by creatingextreme gravity, and so they
basically are anti-gravity.
They have ways of controllingtheir gravitational field, and
so if you draw an experiencerinto your gravitational field,
then that person is technicallymoving at that the clock in that
(11:29):
gravitational field, which isrequiring the the experiencer to
be traveling more quickly thansomeone outside the
gravitational field because it'sit's bending space-time such
that he's falling right right,even if he's not from his own
perspective.
He's falling, which creates adifferential in speed which
causes that person's clock torun more slowly fascinating.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Wow okay, I never understood all that at all cool
right, yeah, it is superinteresting, it is yeah, it is
okay.
So where are you now?
Like what?
Yeah, I know there's likethere's miles of theories around
tall greys and this and thatand right and so many different
things.
Yeah, but tell us you know at ahigh level, like, where are you
with your belief of this andwhat do you think is like valid
(12:15):
and true and proven?
And what do you think is likevalid and true and proven and
what do you think is just yourtheory, you know?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
yeah, it's a lot of fun to speculate, certainly the
the traditional, uh idea oflet's call it a not necessarily
extraterrestrial, by the way.
So let's call it like anon-human intelligence.
And I say not necessarilyextraterrestrial because maybe
they're not coming from outerspace, maybe they're coming from
inner space what's inner space?
Well, essentially like.
(12:39):
We experience reality in fourdimensions yeah okay, but, you
know, setting aside thecontroversy around string theory
, in order for string theory tohave the not necessarily
predictive power, but let's saythe uh, the power to reduce to
different formulas that youfound elsewhere in the history
of physics, for all that math towork, you have to assume that
(12:59):
there are 10 dimensions, and soit's potentially that we, as
physical human beings, onlyexperience four out of maybe 10
or 11 dimensions, and so theymight be coming from one of
those dimensions, whatever thatmeans, and we could talk more
about that.
So that's actually like one wayto think about, or rather one
way that I've been thinkingabout.
This stuff is like okay, well,if these are interdimensional,
yeah, well, okay, there arelegitimate physics that, uh,
(13:22):
extremely smart people dedicatetheir lives to, and that physics
says that maybe there are 10dimensions yeah and so what
would that mean?
because if we exist at fourdimensions, then what exists at
five dimensions, at sixdimensions, at seven dimensions?
So that's how I startedthinking about it and that
immediately brought me to,initially, religion.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Okay, I have.
this is fascinating because aAlan is a major skeptic, right
One of the only times that Ihave ever broken through with
him is during our episode on themoth man, because everyone
believes, or the people whoreally study it believe, that
(14:02):
the mothman is aninterdimensional being, right,
and alan understood and was onboard for that.
Uh-huh.
And so this is immediatelywhat's coming to mind for me,
right, this idea of likeinterdimensionality and my
favorite quote from you know,everything with the mothman is,
and something that I think, howI think of the paranormal in
general, and all of this thatyou can't explain physics to a
cockroach and with all of this,we are the cockroach.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And it's fun to hypothesize, but it's so beyond
what we could even comprehend.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Right, well, yeah, check this out.
I mean like here's.
So like, in thinking about this, it led me to insights such as
the following.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
We experience reality because we exist at a certain
scale.
For example, if we were at asubatomic scale, then we would
be subject to quantum mechanicswhere nothing is deterministic
right.
When you get to a small enoughscale, any particle is in
multiple, is in superposition,it can be many things in many
places at once.
It doesn't necessarily exist,yet it's not a one or a zero,
(15:02):
it's both a one and a zero atthe same time.
So no information exists atthat scale.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, right, I guess I believe you.
I mean this is so interesting.
So just to clarify, so like,because we, if we at that scale,
if you, if humanity existed, ifour reality was at that scale,
right a?
It sounds like we would.
We wouldn't be a one or a zeroright, we would know what was up
or down right, but also like wewould have no ability to
(15:27):
comprehend or think in level wecan, because even the size of
our brains right, to reallysimplify it at this scale allows
for it.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Is that right?
That's right, which which meansessentially that particles have
to organize themselves at acertain scale in order to start
computing right reality wow andexperiencing it fascinating yeah
, which obviously can be smallenough for like microorganisms,
but it can't be smaller thanlike subatomic.
Yeah, okay so what's interestingis if you think about okay,
(15:56):
well, well, that's us Right,maybe we had to exist at a
certain scale or develop bodiesto experience reality.
But because our brains areevolved for survival, our brains
evolved in such a way that wecan only experience a limited
amount of the reality because weexist at a certain scale.
For example, quantum mechanicsis completely not intuitive for
(16:17):
us.
We can barely explain it interms of barely describe what it
does, because it's socounterintuitive.
We think something either is oris not.
This is sort of like all stagesof becoming the thing or all
possible outcomes all togetherat the same time.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And I know I cut you off.
So what do you mean?
This makes you think aboutreligion.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The first thing that occurred to me was we have a
word for non-human intelligencealready.
It's very odd to me that peopledon't make this connection more
often, more quickly.
Non-human intelligence is God.
That's what God is.
God is a superior non-humanintelligence.
Sure, yes, and so okay, thingsin the sky.
(17:01):
Then, of course, in the Bible,the wheels of Ezekiel.
But the different phenomenathat were described in the Bible
could suddenly be explained ifyou just assumed that it was
UFOs all along.
Oh, I love this.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I love where this is going.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, and so then when you say, for example, like,
like, why should we beskeptical?
Now, I'm not, by the way, I'mnot like I'm very spiritual
because of all the things thatI'm describing, but I'm not, I'm
not part of any religion and Igrew up Catholic, but so I'm,
I'm, I'm fascinated by theology,but it's more of an academic
exercise, so please indulge mehere.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
But right, why shouldn't we take?
Let's posit that maybe weshould take seriously the Bible
as testimonials from real peoplein history.
Yeah, let's say that maybe theyactually recorded history,
right.
And so if you take seriouslythat it could be someone
describing something that theysaw, it's very easy to say, okay
, well, maybe they were seeingUFOs, sure.
(17:53):
And then you can go all sortsof great places from there.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, I bet there's also.
I'm sure you've already gonedown this rabbit hole, but
there's a lot of really greatpaintings from like the medieval
times that depict.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
UFOs.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah.
It's one of my favorite thingsto look at on the internet.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, yeah Right, and then you get into all sorts of
interesting theories.
So, for example, I startedinterpreting the fall as having
to do with being stuck in agravitational field.
Tell us what the fall is.
Yes, so the fall, like you know, genesis in the Bible and,
essentially, god.
It's essentially the storyabout of Adam and Eve, who, are,
you know, live in a paradise.
(18:31):
They are allowed to live inthis paradise for as long as
they don't eat from a particular, I believe, the tree of
knowledge.
If I'm not, mistaken.
And of course they do.
And then they quote, unquote,fall.
And so immediately I thoughtlike, okay, well, what do we
mean by fall?
We could mean that we'refalling from a higher dimension,
(18:52):
because maybe in 10 dimensions,maybe we would experience
things so much differently thatit would be effectively paradise
.
And so there's something whereyou're falling dimensionally.
Now we're limited to living infour dimensions, which means we
experience time, we experiencedeath.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Do we know and this is a very silly question
probably what the 10 supposeddimensions are?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So no, but I've seen attempts at it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
And why 10?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
10, because I don't know the math behind it.
Essentially, the idea behindstring theory which is falling
out of favor is my understanding, not that I understand it
terribly much, but essentiallyit's literally string these
strings at a super small scale.
Depending on how they vibrate,they generate different
particles and then thoseparticles combine to become
(19:43):
atoms, combine to becomemolecules and so on and so forth
and essentially for the math towork the strings have to
vibrate into 10 differentdimensions.
So I guess if you're thinkingabout like vectors and you know
the X, y, z, they're adding tothat space.
It's normalized in a sense inthe math where, like all that
(20:05):
complexity that's happeningspatially is quantified somehow
in some notation.
So it's like you can likeextrapolate from it the math
works if it vibrates in 10dimensions.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Got it Okay, so what are our guesses of what the
dimensions are?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
yeah, so I've seen attempts at it.
Here's my attempt yes, okaywell, I'm going to start at four
.
Okay, and so in four dimensionswe live in a cube, but the cube
is changing within itself yeahum, and that.
That's how it, what it lookslike, if you, if you watch, like
an illustration of what thefourth dimension might look like
.
It's essentially like I thinkit's a tetrahedron, if I'm not
(20:39):
mistaken, but it's essentially acube.
That's kind of changing withinitself, but we're in three
spatial dimensions and we'rechanging within ourselves as a
function of time, which is thefourth dimension.
Space-time are related, hencewhy, basically bending the
fabric of space-time withgravity and resulting in things
falling along the vector of thebend in the fabric means that
(21:04):
they are moving faster andtherefore their clocks are
running more slowly.
Okay, in the fifth dimension wehave to think about it's
essentially if you've ever seenInterstellar I have Okay, well,
so that movie explores thiswhere what we experience as time
is potentially itself a spatialdimension we just can't
experience.
Okay, I understand that Rightand so the fun scene of Matthew
(21:26):
McConaughey banging at the backof the bookshelf, yeah, that's
all based on this kind of idea.
Okay, so that's kind of thefifth dimension, where, if
suddenly, like, what weexperience as time is actually
in itself a physical dimension,then that means that potentially
, like, you can exploredifferent parts of it, which
possibly mean, like, differentpossibilities.
(21:46):
Sure, sure, and that's arguably,I mean my, in my intuition says
that what's happening inquantum mechanics is essentially
like a higher dimensional viewor experience of time, such that
you actually have all timelines, all possible timelines, as one
thing wow yeah, and that's likewhat's in the fifth dimension
got it okay wild cap this off bysaying certainly the one one
(22:11):
popular explanation of quantummechanics is many worlds yeah so
, essentially, like, all thosepossibilities exist at the same
time in multiple universes, kindof a.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Thing and right, and so the parallel timelines that
kind of stuff, yeah right oh, Isee, okay, so I think I
understand.
So five is kind of like theidea of, and then six is that
all of those different ideascoexist in many timelines and
universes, at the same time indifferent places and whatever
Fascinating, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So I think let's take a step back and I'm going to do
my best to explain quantummechanics, which For the people
like me who are writers and notvery good with Excel.
That's how I make my living.
Folks spreadsheets.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Okay, Andy, so explain to us quantum mechanics.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
All right, yeah, I'm going to do my best, because
it's really hard to do.
I've been watching YouTubevideos about it for several
years and it's still the problem.
The challenge is that it's notintuitive.
So, but the famous experimentthat demonstrated quantum
physics was called the doubleslit experiment.
Let's say you have a littlelet's just call it like a gun,
and the gun shoots one electron,and it shoots it at a wall that
(23:24):
has two slits, and so what youwould expect is that the
particle that you're firing fromthis gun is either going to
miss the slits or else gothrough one, or else go through
the other one, and you're firingmany, many, many electrons.
So what you would expect to seeis that once they hit the
(23:45):
measuring device on the otherside of the wall, past the slits
, what you would expect to berecorded would be two vertical
lines.
Sure, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Instead, what you see is five vertical lines, and the
reason is that the electronthat was fired from the gun
exists at all positions where itcould possibly be at the same
time, and so if you think abouta wave that has to go through
two slits, it gets I guess you'dcall it refracted or something
(24:16):
along those lines and so then itinterferes with itself, and
that's the interference patternwhere, for example, the crests
and valleys meet, and theycancel each other out, and the
things that don't cancel eachother out are the things that
remain, and so the things thatremain end up making five lines
on the measuring device, fivelines on the measuring device.
(24:41):
And so the explanation is thatthat one electron exists in all
possible positions at the sametime until it's measured, and
then it's only in one of thosepositions, the most probable one
.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Oh, so it's probability.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And that's where the intuition especially starts to
break down, because the maththat is used to describe how
that wave right, you think it'sabout the particle, but also
because it's in all possiblepositions at the same time, it
forms essentially like a wave.
Sure, right.
The math that you use toexplain how that wave propagates
(25:12):
leaves you with the same mathas probability.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
And that's essentially what you were saying
when you were explaining thefifth dimension.
Right, that's right that thingsexist in the same place at the
same time.
There's some probability, space.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
All these possibilities exist at the same
time.
The debate and the thing thatnobody can figure out is you
know what happens when it'scalled, when the wave collapses
to the most probable point inspace, whereas previously it was
at all possible points in spaceat the same time, but it
collapses to one point in space?
What happens to all those otherpossibilities?
(25:43):
So there's the many worldsexplanation, which says that
each of those possibilitiesindividually continue to exist
in their own branches of theuniverse of reality, or there's
interpretation, where it can'tbe random.
There must be something thatwould explain why it collapses
in one point and not the others.
But people really struggle tounderstand what happens to those
(26:04):
possibilities.
Where do those possibilitiesexist?
Because they do exist at aquantum level.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Can I ask you another silly kindergarten level
question about this?
This, okay, so we're talkingabout, in your example, like an
electron right.
How does that scale up tohumanity?
Like, how do we think, yeah,that you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Like, help us take the leap yeah, okay, now this is
where my, uh, my understandingof physics is is obviously
ultimately extremely limited.
I'm aman, but there's somethingto the effect of there's the
standard model Basically tellsyou, there are I don't know how
many I can visualize it, and Idon't know 16 or so, maybe fewer
than that elementary particles,out of which everything else
(26:48):
comes to be through combinationsof these things.
And so an electron is, Ibelieve it's the combination of
two of those particles, butessentially these things come
together, they become entangledwith each other, which means
that they interact.
In their interaction, they willgive off light that may cause
another interaction, or, if itstrikes a particular particle,
(27:09):
it might split into twoelementary particles, and so all
these interactions arehappening.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
And these things are coming together and they're
becoming more complex over time.
Right, all these particlesexisting in space are
interacting with each other andcombining with each other in a
more orderly way over theevolution of the universe, right
to get back to the space aliensyeah, uh, you.
One thing I wonder about iswhether these beings are some
(27:37):
self-organization of particlesthat interact with each other in
such a way that it's consciousand so it's existing at this
sort of like.
It's all around us, it's partof our reality and it's sentient
.
So that's another possibility.
And, of course, just to getback to the end of space, or
(27:59):
there's the extraterrestrialpossibility or some combination
thereof.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Or some interdimensional alternate
universe that sometimes bleedsthrough.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, exactly right.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, yeah, so I'm a little late to the party here.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, hi, you know, I know about the first three
dimensions absolutely exactlyright, yeah, yeah, so I'm a
little late to the party here.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, hey, man now, hi, uh, you know, I, I know
about the first three dimensionsand we're already up to the
fifth, so like wow.
But I absolutely love sci-fiand it's so interesting how a
lot of times, when there's likeworld building and they're
talking about, uh, likeinteracting with some kind of
like new alien race, everythingis usually kept still on like
(28:38):
the same plane, same dimension,because once you go into these
higher level concepts, it getsso cloudy.
Yeah, so so fast, yeah, um, sothe way you were able to just
like break it down was likePretty cool.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I now understand interstellar and glitches in the
matrix and you know a thousandother things yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Well, because, based off your description, you're
saying like well, what aboutwhen other universes bleed
through?
Now we're just talking aboutother probabilities.
Right, possibly interacting,that's right, with ours, that's
correct.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's canceling ours out like a way, a crest on the
wave.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
There is not necessarily a delineation
between that's right.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
See, that's heavy.
That's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
No, I, I, it's exactly right.
And so, like you know what,where we began this conversation
was you know what did I do nextafter that New York times
article?
I started thinking like thisand I think, like, regardless of
whether what's being reportedis real, or maybe it's a psyop,
or maybe it's a disinformationcampaign from a foreign
(29:42):
government that wants toradicalize young men, for
example, and give them a sort ofa cultish, you know, for
example, what the January 6thshaman?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I heard him give a very, very similarly elucidated
explanation of interdimensionalbeings, and so I listen to that.
I go.
Ok, I wonder, potentially, isthis is like an act, like active
measures by, for like, byRussian intelligence, to
basically like radicalize?
Oh, it's the cover up, right?
Oh, the deep state is nottelling you the truth about
(30:16):
aliens.
It's time to weaponize yourcuriosity is one of the uh, the
slogans.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Um, and so I'm also skeptical at the same time I say
I I've always been like veryskeptical when it comes to, you
know, government conspiraciesand everything you know there's.
There's generally at leastavailable some kind of easy
explanation that doesn't involvesome kind of grandiose scheme,
right, right.
So the one thing that I can'tget out of my head was just this
one comment that I read thatsaid the government is going to
(30:45):
keep throwing absolutelyridiculous stuff at us to make
us so exhausted.
Correct that by the time theyactually want to start
implementing real things, we'retoo tired to care.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, and that's right.
That's another one.
I think there's somethingsimilar, if not exactly that.
The conspiracy theory is calledProject Blue Beam and some
whistleblower comes forward andsays that there's a plan to
rewrite the history of the humanrace and to tell you that there
are space aliens and likethat's.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
you know, graham, uh, graham hancock andy I, I
actually we don't have to jumpthe shark too soon but, I do
think you have some thoughts onand I've talked to you a lot
about your thoughts on politicstoday and how that relates to
all of this.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yes, so there's potentially a couple of things
going on.
So to take a step back, UFOsare political, Sure, Necessarily
, Because one of the reasons whyfolks in the know again
reputable people credentialed.
Everything else will saysomething like the problem is
that the government doesn't knowwhat it is or what to do about
(31:55):
it, and that's going to causepeople to lose faith in their
government or it's going tocause people to form cults.
So it's called catastrophicdisclosure.
If tomorrow you walked outsideand there were flying saucers
flying around in the sky, youwould go into what they refer to
as like ontological shock.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
It would cause like mass chaos and panic.
We'd be like what do I knowabout?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
anything anymore.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Yeah, right Like ontological shock.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Ontological shock, in other words, like a sudden
realization or insight into yourreality that you're not
prepared to handle.
I see, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Right, like your, like existential crisis, to like
the max.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, like if we're.
You know, if we're seriousabout interdimensional beings or
different universes interactingwith each other, then you know,
imagine you're walking outsideand a UFO materialized out of
seemingly thin air.
That would call into questionwhat, what space is, if
something can materialize there.
Are we living in a simulation?
(32:54):
Are we a hologram?
This, that and the other thing,the very thing that we paper
over on a daily basis byenslaving ourselves to our
employers.
We want to not think aboutthese ontological issues and we
would suddenly be confrontedwith them, and that would be a
national security problem.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, and that's why there is some thing to be said,
I suppose, or there is somelogic potentially behind these
coverups and the slow release ofinformation around, like
obviously the government knowsmuch more than we know about all
this and they may perhaps gotto a point where they felt like
they needed to start tricklingit into society because they
(33:32):
think there could be somethingthat's going to reveal itself,
and if they don't slowly trickleit in, everyone will have a
mental breakdown.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Correct, correct, and I think they've had a timeline
for this for some time.
And so, for example, like Ithink there are there's
documentation Just check me IfI'm wrong, I don't mean to the
Pentagon has worked with, likeHollywood, to basically get
different stories out there.
So like Arrival, for example,right, basically get different
stories out there.
So like arrival, for example,sure, right, where it's like,
(33:58):
well, because one theory is likethese things might be crypto
terrestrial, there's a, there'sanother one crypto terrestrial,
where they're living on theearth, we just don't come across
them.
So, for example, the easy thingto say of we know more about
outer space than we do our ownoceans right so like miles and
miles and miles deep into theocean the mariana trench right
are there?
(34:19):
are there intelligent beingsthere, and have they developed
some sort of technology?
So are we dealing with squid?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
right, right, possibly, yeah right whoa.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Potentially there's some timeline.
Maybe they know somehow thatyou know who knows?
2025 sounds like a good as anycandidate for the year in which.
So that's Project 2025.
Right, just bringing the worlddown.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Okay, and so, andy, let me ask you this yeah.
There's that, which I thinktotally makes a ton of sense,
right as a theory.
Yeah, you and I have alsotalked about though for instance
at the time that we arerecording this which full
disclosure is in the past, rightIndeed.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Time is relative Exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
There are tons and tons of drones hovering over the
state of New Jersey, and youand I spent a while today
talking about that and talkingabout what those could be, and
you told me some of yourtheories what those could be,
and you told me some of yourtheories and I think that led us
to a conversation about, okay,let me boil down your theory and
you'll keep me honest, thatthese are us government machines
(35:23):
that are being redistributedacross the East coast because
there could be world war threeand you know, on its way.
So that's your theory.
Okay, and then my thought wasokay, so, if we have, and I said
to you but does the fbi?
Yeah, really not know that?
And you said I don't think thatthey do, there's a higher
(35:43):
government power.
And so I said, okay, there's ahigher government power, like
massive tech money, massive.
Yeah, how do?
How does something like trumpfit into this?
And that's where I would lovefor you to to tell everyone kind
of your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Sure, okay, so I'll also mention that.
You know just as this drone andstuff is happening.
Today I read that the thesecretary general of NATO
basically said that NATO needsto prepare for World War III.
So he made that declarationtoday.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Oh yeah, it's not something you want to hear.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
No, certainly not, but I think we all need to hear
it.
I think we need to again to thepoint about being exhausted,
being wrapped up in differentnarratives that we create in our
culture, that we also consumethrough our screens.
Yeah, if we can just drop theveil and kind of talk about
what's really going on, yeah.
And not be avoidant about it.
There's all this going on inthe background.
(36:35):
Let's say World War III, allthese things, all these world
events are happening, and we'llreturn to those in a moment.
But as far as Trump isconcerned Trump, in my mind, the
only way I can understand Trumpnow, given his relationship
with Elon Musk, is that Trump isan avatar for oligarchs that
are following the Russianplaybook, and essentially it's
(36:55):
these billionaires yeah and notto.
I hesitated there because it'sbecome a bit of an epithet to
say billionaires and it, I thinkit like, has lost a little bit
of its meaning.
I'm talking about folks whohave so much money that they can
do whatever they want, anytime,sure, okay, without any
limitation.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And you really have to wonder what that does to
somebody.
Sure, do.
And so you have these folks.
And in Russia they figured outthat if you, mafia style,
basically find a demagogue thatcan control the population
politically, then you canmaximize your freedom, because
you can maximize how much moneyyou have and how much you can
(37:34):
get away with.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Right, you don't have to spend your time dealing with
the populace, because that'ssomeone else's job.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
That's right, exactly , and also like you can do
whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, you have infinite money.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Okay Now what we're finding ourselves dealing with
today, at our point in history,so technological advance.
It turns out that theseoligarchs are technological
oligarchs and they subscribe toa philosophy or they participate
in a movement.
And this is, if you'relistening and you take one thing
(38:04):
away.
I hope it's this.
Everybody should Google theTechno-Optimist Manifesto by
Mark Andreessen, of AndreessenHorowitz.
Ok, so no slouch.
This guy is sort of aquintessential, the epitome of
the venture capitalist, the guythat inspires the culture around
venture capitalism and tech.
(38:24):
He wrote a very Nietzscheanmanifesto where we are
technological supermen andessentially like we need to
accelerate, we need toaccelerate, we need to move
faster, we need to removeregulation.
We need to remove regulation.
We have to find out what thegovernment knows about so-called
UFOs, because whether youbelieve in aliens or not, the
(38:45):
irreducible fact is that thereare there's some physics that
the government knows about thatthey're potentially using to
build their own technology, orelse they're observing another
extraterrestrial technology.
But there's some physics thatthe government knows about that
they're keeping secret and thesetechno optimists want to get
access to this physics becauseit will enable them to
(39:09):
accelerate and, for example,become, make humans
interplanetary and all thatstuff.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
That sounds not so bad.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Well, right, exactly, and so you know, honestly, it's
a silver lining.
The problem is that you knowany form of well.
My interpretation of fascism isif there is a major
technological development in asociety, for example like the
Industrial Revolution in thelate 19th century, then a
society basically has tocompletely remodel its economy
(39:40):
and the way that it organizesitself, and in order, for
example, to build up giantcities with trains and all the
sorts of industrial mechanismsthat you need to have a modern
economy, you might turn tofascism in order to force your
population to do that.
I think we're at a similarmoment in history now, where
there's a new form of fascismthat is trying to figure out how
(40:02):
to restructure society to dealwith those new physics and or
artificial intelligence.
Another possible explanation forUAP Artificial intelligence.
That's right, how Well.
Because if artificialintelligence is ultimately a
computation, the question thatone needs to ask oneself is
(40:23):
whether computations happen atsome scale that we don't have
access to.
So, for example, if particlesare sort of computing something
at some scale that we don't haveaccess to, potentially into
other dimensions that we don'thave access to, potentially into
other dimensions that we don'thave access to, is there some
computation.
That's happening.
That effectively generates aconsciousness, and so that's
(40:44):
another explanation for UAP.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Fascinating.
And to just make sure Iunderstand kind of the point on
Trump a little bit too, the ideais that Trump, that the
government holds and youmentioned this earlier to me
that perhaps this, you know,physics was discovered during,
like the Manhattan Project, andthen it was put away because it
was so powerful and scary, andeven more so than the bomb right
(41:08):
, and so that existed since thattime and it's being held secret
.
And so if you get Trump in aposition of power, if he's armed
with Elon Musk, he could accessthat because it's being held
secret.
And so if you get Trump in aposition of power, if he's armed
with Elon Musk, he could accessthat because it's a
government-owned thing.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
And it's specifically locked away, they say, in the
Department of Energy.
And so it's interesting.
I think, as of today, thursday,december 12th, I don't believe
that Trump has nominated anyoneyet for Secretary of Energy, but
stay tuned, because that mighttell you something.
Depending on who he puts there,right, I might tell you
something about what he wantsout of there, because the um,
(41:42):
yeah, the speculation is that,like the department, I think of
how strange it is to call partof your government the
department of energy, right,what are we talking about?
Energy?
What is energy?
What are we?
Whoa?
Yeah, of course, the departmentof energy.
Wait a minute.
What's energy?
What are we talking about?
What does that mean?
Energy?
What does that word mean?
We're talking about nuclearenergy, but it's not just
nuclear energy, it's theresearch into energy, right, how
(42:03):
to find energies in seeminglyempty space, right, the vacuum
energy, right.
Or how to harness energy suchthat you could potentially bend
space-time Right, potentiallybend space-time Right.
And essentially, if you thinkabout, think about a flat piece
of paper, yeah, and let's saythat flat piece of paper, right,
that represents a plane.
At one side of the plane, youhave point A.
(42:23):
On the other side of the plane,you have point B, something
needs to go from point A topoint B.
That's a certain distance.
But if you have enough energyto bend the plane, then points A
and B come closer together andyou can move more quickly.
But from someone who doesn'thave uh, isn't within that frame
of reference is creating agravitational field to bend
(42:43):
space-time in that way?
You're not there, so you don'tsee it.
So, from your point of view,something accelerates
instantaneously right right, andso one of the things that
people observe, these things, uh, as doing, it's kind of like a
slingshot right when, like itlooks.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
No, because it's not moving.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (43:02):
So a slingshot would be an acceleration and a stop
right.
It moves really really fast.
It's not moving really reallyfast.
The space is moving around youand stuff.
Yes, exactly right, exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And so at the Department of of energy, they
are exploring how do you controlenergy in such a way that you
can create these warps inspace-time, such that you can
get from one point to anotherand we know that they're working
on this thing.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
Well, I mean, how can they not?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
you know, this is the type of thing where, like this,
has been talked about inscience fiction, since, you know
, early 1900s.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
That's right.
And so, yeah, here we have.
Say, they stumbled acrosssomething that it looks to be
tangentially applicable to thefield.
Right, but it's not perfect.
So instead, yeah, maybe theyfigured out a way to move an
electron, you know, from point ato point b by folding
space-time.
That's right, but in thefolding, uh, say it's, it's not
(43:56):
just like harmless, say itcauses everything that folds to
just get destroyed.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
That's right, and wouldn't the aliens be mad about
that?
So I mean that's anotherexplanation, for example, of
like why, yeah, absolutely, whyum?
Why ufos um tend to be foundaround our um nuclear?
Assets right, and so oneexplanation is they don't want
us blowing up anything anymore.
Because what we don't realizeis that when we detonate a
nuclear bomb, you'reconcentrating an incredible
(44:23):
amount of energy in a smallamount of space, which means
you're going to bend that spaceand who knows what you're doing
to the poor folks at differentscales.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Well, what if?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
They might say hey, wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
We're on the verge of world war three right that's
right, just as trump is about tohit the button.
Yeah, aliens, come down andsave us well.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
So I believe that that is a plausible explanation
and, of course, as soon as um,you know, as soon as I find
myself thinking in such a let'scall it like a salvationist way,
sure, immediately I go red flag, wait a minute, oh that's too.
Wait a minute, oh, that's toowishful, but that was where I
went originally with it, whichis like, okay, well, now let's
(45:03):
get back to the Bible.
We got things that people werecalling angels were actually
UFOs, and the UFOs wereparticipating in the evolution
of human society, because thegoal of let's assume that these
are benevolent.
And so, again, in the contextof the Bible, that they're
trying to save us, and in thecontext of the fall if we take
(45:24):
the fall to mean a fall in termsof dimensions, to a lower
dimension where we experiencetime and death, then the
solution is they need to teachus the technology to access
higher dimensions.
Right, and so, essentially,they're developing society in
such a way that we developtechnology, including by
instigating wars betweenreligions.
(45:45):
Quote, unquote, different setsof UFOs.
So we fight, we develop ourtechnology, we fight, we develop
our technology to the pointwhere we develop artificial
intelligence.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Okay, so we're going to put a pin in the conversation
with Andy there for now, asthey say, and we're going to
come back next episode and pickthings up where we left off.
I hope everyone is staying welland staying safe and we will
talk to you very soon.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.