April 21, 2025 • 34 mins
Today we discuss the history of the Lincoln's, The Booth's and the intersection of the White House and the Occult. But more importantly, this history is really a reflection of a nation divided, and the aftermath of grief. It doesn't seem so far away from the current state of the state.
Sources
- Whitehousehistory.org article by Alexandra Kommel: Seances in The Red Room.
- CSUN University Library: The Edwin Booth Family Collection
- National Geographic Article by Parissa Djangi: Seances at the White House
- In The Houses of Their Dead by Terry Alford
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Lunatics Radio Hourpodcast.
My name is Abbey Brinker and Iam sitting here with Alan Kudan.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And today we are talking about seances in the
White House.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So this is a really interesting topic.
That's sort of come to me a fewdifferent ways over the years
and I've researched it indifferent capacities.
But a very mysterious friend ofours wrote a really cool story
that's sort of inspired by thisand we wanted to present that on
the podcast next episode.
But before that story plays, wereally wanted to highlight the
(00:59):
fascinating history of seancesin the White House and you know
what it felt like a good time toreflect on that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Okay, this is a real wild card.
It is, it's fun, I don't know,Last time you did this it was
Dancing Plague and that was awinner.
So now the bar is very high.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
We'll see if I can top it or at least rise to the
occasion.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So our mysterious person, are they affiliated with
the White House?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
We will reveal nothing.
Wow, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I mean, maybe I don't know.
Okay, Without getting too muchinto politics, does this person
want to make America great again?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Not, no, no, they don't, they don't.
But I will say it feels likeboth a really good and bad time
for this episode, Because we'rereally going to talk a lot today
about Abraham Lincoln in thisepisode, and you know, Lincoln
certainly is a complex human notthe pure hero I think that he's
often believed to be, but hedid a lot of radical and good
(02:02):
things while he was in office,which is obviously starkly
different from the world'sburning situation that's
happening right now.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
So we're talking about Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah Well, to some we're really talking about his
wife, but he's involved, what's?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
his wife's name.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Mary Todd Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Mary Todd Lincoln.
Yeah, okay, so this is a verydifferent period of American
history.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, and I think it's kind of again both like a
weird time to reflect on that,but maybe a good time to reflect
on American history.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So Abraham Lincoln was really into spooky stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, we're going to talk about it.
I mean, he wasn't really intospooky stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
He tolerated it, but his wife was.
Yeah, a tale as old as time.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
But do you remember our Doppelganger series?
Nope, you don't remember it atall.
Do you remember that it existed?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I recall that we had something on Doppelgangers.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
A big part of that series was Lincoln, because
Lincoln thought that he saw hisown Doppelganger and that it was
like this really horriblereflection of himself, and then
he ended up being assassinatednot too long after that.
So, anyway, we're going to getinto all of that, but the truth
is I've really always beenfascinated to some degree with
(03:14):
Mary Todd Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Really.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Especially because there's a really deep connection
between spiritualism which, asyou know, is my favorite, my
favorite occult movement and theCivil War.
But again, I just think it's sobadass that Mary hosted seances
in the White House.
So anyway, today we're going todiscuss the history of ghost
stories in the White House, theseances performed by Mary Todd
(03:36):
Lincoln and the history of theBooth family.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Are the tables oval-shaped?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
What.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
For the Oval Office.
Do they have an oval ovalshaped table or is it round?
In the oval office it lookslike an eyeball doesn't.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Isn't that where his desk is?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
where else you can do the seance no, they were not.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
They were in the red room the red room we're gonna
get to that.
We're gonna get to that let'stalk about our sources before we
get too far.
The first is a book the first isa book, the other is not a book
the book is called in thehouses of their dead, the
lincolns, the booths and thespirits, written by terry alford
.
And then I also used threearticles a whitehousehistoryorg
(04:15):
article by alexander comelcalled seances in the red room,
sea sun university libraryarticle.
The edwin Family Collection.
And a National Geographicarticle by Parisa de Gange,
seances in the White House.
But long before Lincoln wasever elected, edwin Thomas Booth
was born on November 13, 1833.
During his lifetime he touredthe United States as an actor
(04:39):
and a stage manager.
But even though Booth wasconsidered to be one of the most
talented Shakespearean actorsin the 1800s, a shadow
besmirched his reputation.
Edwin Booth is the olderbrother of John Wilkes Booth,
the man who assassinated AbrahamLincoln.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Can you imagine having to live your whole life
and be like, yeah, your littlebrother is going to assassinate
Lincoln someday, so fuck you.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Edwin and John Wilkes' father was an esteemed
actor named Junius Brutus Booth.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Great name.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Junius named his son Edwin after Edwin Forrest and
Thomas Flynn, of course, bothactors that Junius worked with.
Junius immigrated to the UnitedStates in 1821 from England.
Edwin Booth was born inMaryland on the family farm in
1833.
The dynamic between brothers,edwin John Wilkes and Junius Jr,
(05:32):
a third son, was fascinatingbecause all three ended up as
performers, just like theirfather.
This incited constantcompetition between the brothers
.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Because they're both actors.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
All three of them are actors.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
All three of them are actors and they're competing.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
That's right.
Edwin debuted on the stage inBoston on September 10th 1849.
He acted with his father in thefamous play Richard III Get
some new material.
John, Edwin and Junius Jrcontinued to put on plays
together throughout the UnitedStates long after their father
passed away in 1852.
In 1861, Edwin married fellowactress Mary Devlin.
(06:03):
The couple had a daughter namedEdwina.
Very interesting, I suppose, toname her after her father.
How'd they?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
get that name.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Unfortunately, mary Devlin passed away two years
after their marriage.
To really understand the eventssurrounding the Booths and the
Lincolns, we really need tounderstand the tragedy of the
Civil War.
Quoting from Seances in the RedRoom by Alexandra Kamel, quote
the bloodiest conflict in thenation's history was the
American Civil War from 1861until 1865.
(06:33):
Fought over the expansion ofslavery, the Civil War resulted
in approximately 750,000American fatalities nearly equal
(06:56):
to the total number of Americandeaths in the Revolutionary Wow
.
The survivor understands themeaning of their loved one's
life and death in order toproperly grieve.
End quote More than threemillion men fought in the war
and two percent of the totalpopulation of the United States
was killed during the war.
But battle wasn't the onlyreason for death.
Disease took more lives thanweapons did.
(07:17):
Two men to every one who diedon the battlefield died due to
sickness.
It was a horrible loss of life.
It was graphic and violent andinvasive, and it makes a ton of
sense that the country saw arise in a belief in the
afterlife in the years thatfollowed, and not just a belief
in the afterlife, but a beliefin the ability for the living
and the dead to interact.
(07:37):
Spiritualism is a religion basedon the belief that there is an
afterlife and spirits not onlyexist but want to communicate
with the living.
Within spiritualism, the spiritworld is believed to be a place
where spirits continue toevolve and become more advanced
than humans.
It is also believed thatbecause of this advanced state
that those in the afterlife seekto guide the living and provide
(07:57):
spiritual direction.
Spiritualism was at its heightof popularity between 1840 and
1920.
At its peak, there were about 8million followers of the
practice.
Most practitioners were fromthe upper and middle classes,
and I really can't stress thisenough.
But one of the reasons thatspiritualism rose in prominence
is really a direct result of theCivil War.
It wasn't just you know, youlost your dad or your brother or
(08:20):
your son, you lost your cousin,you lost your uncle, you lost
your neighbor, you lost yourteacher, like everybody around
you was impacted, and there wasa desperation, I think, to try
to understand and rectify thatand to reverse it to some degree
.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
The rise of industrialization and
urbanization of the country madeit easier for people to access
new types of thinking andalternative religions with
access to newspapers andperiodicals.
There are many historicspiritualist newspapers that are
very cool to read, and you canfind them on Etsy or like copies
and scans of them in differentlibrary databases.
(08:56):
It's also thought that thevalue of the family unit
increased and family sizedecreased, resulting in more
grief with individual deaths andlosses.
Right, so people started havingsmaller families, meaning that
not that your relationship withpeople is finite or whatever,
but just that there's moreemphasis placed on the loss of
(09:17):
one of four versus one of 10.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I mean sure.
Why do you think families gotsmaller though?
Did the families get smallerbecause they lost members or
just going forward after theCivil War?
They just wanted smallerfamilies.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I'm not a historian on this topic, but I would just
wildly speculate.
Yeah, my wild speculation wouldbe that maybe with disease,
with loss, with, with all youknow that people wanted smaller
families, or there was lessmoney to support bigger families
.
Maybe there was less, like,with the urbanization and
industrialization, there wasless of a need for, like, huge
(09:52):
families to support agriculture.
Right, I think it.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
It's all of those things maybe, but that's just me
guessing oh yeah, I guess itwas a moving away from everybody
being a farmer right when wasthe?
Industrial, the IndustrialRevolution 1760.
Wow, so this is post-IndustrialRevolution.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Well, so it began in Great Britain in the mid-1700s
1760.
But it sort of spread to theUnited States around 1840.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So it was exactly this time period that we're
talking about.
That makes sense.
Yeah Right, you don't need 12kids to work your fields when
you don't have fields.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Right, that's very true.
That's a quote for a t-shirt.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Spiritualism was also a way to express moral and
ethical concerns.
Many prominent spiritualistleaders were women, and most
supported women's suffrage andthe abolition of slavery.
At the time, few women wereable to speak publicly in the US
.
Spiritualism was also anopportunity for power and
self-expression that did notexist for them otherwise.
(10:53):
Additionally, the spiritualistview of the afterlife or heaven
resulted in a moral place thatthey felt was lacking on earth.
But one of the most interestingspiritualists though there were
many was Mary Todd Lincoln, whoactually held seances hoping to
connect with her deceased son inthe Red Room of the White House
.
Mary Ann Todd Lincoln was bornon December 13, 1818, into a
(11:17):
wealthy family in Kentucky, andjust to acknowledge that, mary
Todd's family did have enslavedpeople working for their family,
and she obviously grew up andchanged her political beliefs,
but that is part of her history.
As an adult, mary Todd became ahuge supporter of her husband's
political ambitions and themessage and, interestingly, she
(11:39):
was courted by Stephen A Douglasbefore she married Lincoln, who
was Lincoln's major politicalopponent.
Mary Todd and Abraham Lincolnwere married on November 4th
1842.
The couple had four sons RobertTodd Lincoln, edward Baker
Lincoln, william Wallace Lincolnand Thomas Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
She's zero creativity with her last name.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Edward, or Eddie, died of tuberculosis at age six.
William Willie died of typhoidfever at age 11.
Thomas, also known as Tad, diedat age 18 from an unknown cause
.
Tad, yeah, I mean, you missedthe point of that sentence,
which was that three of the foursons passed away.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
To tuberculosis.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
No Typhoid fever tuberculosis, and one was
unknown.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh, what's the unknown one you think?
Go ahead speculate.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Needless to say, mary Todd lived a grief-stricken
life and she was completelyovercome with the loss of her
children, particularly the lossof her son Willie in 1862.
Quoting again from seances inthe White House by Alexandra
Comel, quote First Mary ToddLincoln became inconsolable
after the passing of Willie anddesperately searched for an
(12:50):
outlet for her grief.
Shortly after his death she wasintroduced to the Lorries, a
well-known group of mediums thatwere located in Georgetown.
Mrs Lincoln found such comfortfrom the seances held by the
group that she started hostingher own seances in the Red Room
of the White House.
There's evidence to suggestthat she hosted as many as eight
seances in the White House andthat her husband was even in
(13:11):
attendance for a few of them.
The seances proved to be aneffective coping mechanism for
Mrs Lincoln that she onceremarked to her half-sister.
That quote Willie lives.
He comes to me every night andstands at the foot of the bed
with the same sweet, adorablesmile that he always had.
He does not always come alone.
Little Eddie, her son thatperished at the age of four, is
(13:31):
sometimes with him.
End quote.
That's spooky, very spooky.
In December of 1862, mary Toddhosted medium Nettie Colburn in
the White House as typical inthe Red Room.
Quoting from the NationalGeographic article by Parisa
Daganji, quote Colburn laterclaimed that the president
joined the seance and that, inher trance-like state, she
(13:52):
didn't limit herself tocommunicating with Willie
Lincoln.
Instead, the spirits shechanneled urged the president to
issue the EmancipationProclamation which they
predicted would quote be thecrowning event of his
administration and his life.
Sessions with Colburn and othermediums stoked the First Lady's
faith that Sol survived death.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
We've got some highly politicized ghosts.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
We had a ghost that came to urge her to give the
Emancipation Proclamation.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Well, that was to Lincoln directly.
That was one of the seancesthat Lincoln was at.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So he took part in these yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Wow, yep, at least a few times A spooky couple Could
be us.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Do you think he wore the hat during the seance?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
What if we're reincarnated them?
We kind of have the right bodytypes.
I think what You're like talland lanky.
I'm as you described earliertoday.
Have a good foundation.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Is there a picture of her?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Hard to say.
My beard is quite different.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But we're not totally writing it off.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The red room in the White House is a drawing room
that serves as the president'santechamber.
It borders the president'soffice and the chamber rooms.
Typically, presidents use it asa sitting room.
Despite the comfort we canassume she found in these
spiritual practices, mary Todddid eventually take a step back
from these rituals aftersocietal pressure won out.
(15:14):
Some believe that the Lincolnslinger in the White House even
after death, notably themajority of ghost sightings and
encounter claims from thishistoric landmark center around
Willie Eddie and Abraham Lincoln.
So Abraham and two of his sons,and of course, don't even get
me started on the AbrahamLincoln funeral train, which I
know I've talked about in manydifferent capacities.
(15:36):
I have an article up onlunaticsprojectcom.
I have videos up on our socialmedia.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Well, if you'd like to know more about the Abraham
Lincoln funeral train, check outour episode on ghost trains.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Or keep listening.
Lincoln himself has beenspotted in a yellow oval room
not the oval office, because Ihad to clarify that and the
Lincoln bedroom.
So there's been sightings ofhis ghost in the yellow oval
room and the Lincoln bedroom.
Both First Lady Grace Coolridgeand Queen Wilhelmina from the
Netherlands have claimed to seethe Lincoln's spirits in the
(16:10):
White House.
Jeremiah Smith, also known asJerry, was the official White
House duster for about 35 years.
My God.
Starting in the late 1860s.
He often spoke to reporters onproperty about the ghost
sightings of the Lincolns and Ithink he sort of personally did
a lot to fan the rumors and thelegend that the lincolns live on
(16:30):
in the white house you just it,just it sounds like something
out of like medieval times bring, bring in the royal duster, I
know well.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I mean, it kind of seems like an easy job so the
only thing that I can think, theonly reason why I can think,
why you need to have an officialduster- yeah.
Is because there's going to besome artifacts outside of cases
that need to get dusted, thatneed to be handled with like
museum preservation quality.
(17:01):
I can understand why you don'twant having, you know, any
random cleaning staff, but alsoyou're not having any random
cleaning staff in the whitehouse in the first place, right?
But also, do you think he didmore than just dust, or is that
it?
It's like if there's a spill hehas to call a different team no
, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
So, though, uh, government documents listed him
as a laborer.
He took on tons of differentroles, including footmanman,
valet custodian and, mostnotably, duster.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Footman.
What's a footman?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
A liveried servant whose duties include admitting
visitors and waiting at table.
That's from dictionarycom.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Okay, sure, so like a sub-butler.
Yeah, like a butler, secondchair butler second chair got it
, so he's butler second chair hewas valet that which is
obviously parking your horses dothey have cars?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
yet no, did lincoln have a car?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
probably not.
No, I mean he invented thefirst lincoln you think there
was cars.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You think lincoln invented the first lincoln yeah,
think there was cars.
You think Lincoln invented thefirst Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, why else would they call it that?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
You're right.
There's no other reason.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So, okay, he parked the horses.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That must have been murder.
You put them in their littleslot and they start wandering
around.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
You're right, there was no ropes back then at all,
so it was just a real fool'serrand.
You're right.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Okay, but it's like, yeah, bring her on my horse.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
He would sound like he was overall good guy Overall.
Yeah, he was a legend.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
But official duster.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
What do you think was his hierarchy of duties, like
if someone asked him to dust,another person asked him to
bring their horse.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I think it depends who asked him.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
That's true, it's a good idea whatever lincoln said,
he did but what if?
What if mary todd asked him togo grab her horse?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
oh, well, he actually .
He was there after them, so wedon't know he's not even part of
the story no, he's the one whodid claim to see their spirits
after they died.
I don't even know what theylooked like.
You're right, there was notportraits back then either
that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, he just looked at the five, let's keep it
moving here.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
And because we are talking about the freaky things
that the lincolns did in thewhite house oh my I also want to
call back to our deep dive,very briefly, into doppelgangers
, so let's give you a little bitmore context here.
Tuesday, november 6th 1860, theevening of abraham lincoln's
first election.
Okay, so, so the duster didoverlap with them.
(19:28):
Anyway, lincoln claimed to lookinto the mirror the night of
his first election and see twofaces staring back.
What was the duster's name?
Jeremiah Smith.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Oh, what a missed opportunity.
I really hope his name was likeDusty.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
So Lincoln, two faces staring back.
I do want to point out thatlincoln was actually very open
with his close friends andfamily.
He was truly a believer in theparanormal.
The double looked pale andsickly.
So lincoln got off from thecouch that he was resting on to
take a closer look.
Right so he's on a couch, helooks over, sees himself in the
mirror.
He's taken aback.
(20:04):
He is like who is that ghostly,sickly man in the mirror?
That can't be me.
He takes a closer look and theghostly version disappears.
But when lincoln sat back downon the couch and glanced again,
he saw the double visionreappear.
Lincoln's wife, mary,interpreted this vision as a
sign that lincoln would bere-elected for a second term but
(20:25):
that he would not survive itgiven the sickly twinge that he
saw on his double.
And of course she was right.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Lincoln was assassinated on April 15th 1865,
just a few months into hissecond term.
In addition to this earlydoppelganger sighting, lincoln
also had dreams leading up tohis assassination of his own
death, and I do imagine thatyou're probably super stressed
in the position that he was in,so I don't know.
It makes sense to me that hewas having stress dreams and he
(20:54):
was afraid that he would dieright.
There was probably all kinds ofthreats on his life.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
He's already superstitious.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Now he's getting stress dreams.
Yeah, of course he's gettingstress dreams yeah, of course
he's gonna see ghosts that wantto kill him yeah, yeah, that's
exactly what I said that he'sseeing ghosts that want to kill
him yeah yeah, that was what Isaid I mean they gotta stop in.
You know inviting john willisbooth over for dinner.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, I know it's a real gamble, so this is a little
wild card quote here, quotingfrom ward hill lamin's book the
recollections of Abraham Lincoln.
(21:40):
Quote it were stationedsoldiers who were acting as
guards and there was a throng ofpeople gazing mournfully upon
the corpse whose face wascovered, others weeping
pitifully.
Who is dead in the White House,I demanded of one of the
soldiers.
The president was his answer hewas killed by an assassin.
End quote.
All right, let's talk about JohnWilkes.
(22:00):
John Wilkes Booth blamedLincoln for the war and the
staggering loss of life.
When he was gearing up forre-election, john Wilkes' hatred
for the president grew evenstronger.
As the election loomed, wilkesstarted to develop plans to
kidnap the president from hissummer home a few miles away
from the White House and movehim across the Potomac River
into Virginia.
After Lincoln won his secondterm by a landslide, the Booth
(22:24):
brothers, john Wilkes and Edwin,continued to argue, both with
opposing political views.
Though Wilkes actually didattend Lincoln's inauguration he
was a guest of his secretfiancée Lucy Hale but he did not
attempt to assassinate him then.
He later claimed that he had anexcellent chance if he had
wished to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Now he's just showing off.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
When he discovered that Lincoln would be going to
the production of Still WatersRun Deep at a hospital, wilkes
assembled a team to kidnap thepresident from this event, but
Lincoln changed his plans at thelast minute.
On April 11, 1865, wilkes wasin attendance outside the White
House when Lincoln gave alast-minute address about giving
suffrage to former enslavedpeople, a message that continued
(23:06):
to anger Wilkes.
The next day, on April 12th,robert E Lee surrendered at
Appomattox Courthouse.
On the morning of April 14th,good Friday, booth learned that
both Lincoln and Ulysses S Grantwould be attending a
performance of the play OurAmerican Cousin later that
evening.
He set out making plans rightaway.
Other members of his group hadorders to assassinate other
(23:29):
political figures that would bein attendance the Secretary of
State William H Stewart and VicePresident Andrew Johnson.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Was anyone else attacked that night, or was
Lincoln the only one that gotLuigi'd?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
We're going to get to it in a second.
So Grant declined theinvitation at the last minute
after his wife insisted that thecouple traveled to New Jersey
to visit family Typical.
Because Booth was a formeractor, he was able to move
through the theater at will.
I think he either hadconnections there like he knew,
you know, he had like accessbehind the scenes.
He'd be like oh, you're herebecause you're an actor.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
It's just funny to think that acting gives you
superpowers.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, he was like pretty famous, I think.
Booth quietly entered Lincoln'sbox at 10.14 pm and proceeded
to shoot the president in theback of the head A true coward's
move.
Why Shoot him in the back ofthe head?
He was right next to him.
He didn't turn and look at him.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
The true coward's move is to drop a drone on the
hospital from across the otheron the other side of the planet.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I think both can be true.
Major Henry Rothborn, also inthe box, along with his fiancee
Clara Harris and Mary Todd,attempted to detain Booth, but
Booth stabbed the man and thewomen were unharmed.
Dramatically, booth next jumpedfrom the box to the stage.
He raised his knife and yelledsick semper tyrannis Latin, for
(24:53):
thus always to tyrants, a nod toBrutus's declaration at the
killing of Julius Caesar.
Some claim that Booth alsoshouted I have done it, the
South is avenged.
Though his dramatic leap to thestage was not as smooth as he
had intended, other witnessesclaim that he fractured his leg
during the maneuver when thespur on his boot caught onto a
flag.
One conspirator was able to stabthe Secretary of the State, but
the man survived.
(25:14):
The other lost his nerve andspent the evening drinking and
never made an attempt on AndrewJohnson's life.
By April 18th, wilkes was stillon the run, but a mass of
citizens lined up to mourn andpublicly view Lincoln's body.
On April 21st 1865, the Lincolnspecial left Washington DC.
The train carrying Lincoln'scoffin and a coffin containing
(25:37):
the body of his son, willie, washeaded to Springfield, illinois
.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Oh, that's the funeral train.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
There you go.
About 300 people accompaniedthe procession.
Abraham Lincoln's portrait wasattached to the front of the
train.
William Wallace, lincoln orWillie, had passed away at age
11 from bilious fever, likelytyphoid fever.
Willie died on February 20th1862, during his father's second
year in office.
Lincoln was 56 years old whenhe was assassinated by John
(26:07):
Wilkes Booth.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Far too old to be president.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
His body on board.
The train departed WashingtonDC six days later.
The Lincoln special traveledover 1,600 miles.
While the locomotive passedthrough 400 cities, there were
13 major scheduled stops.
Throughout the journey,hundreds of thousands of
mourners gathered to pay theirrespects At big stops.
Lincoln's coffin was removedfrom the train and transferred
(26:32):
to a horse-drawn carriage.
From there the carriage wouldparade Lincoln's body among the
grieving crowds.
Many also gathered along thetracks and made bonfires, sang
hymns and played instruments tohonor him.
When the train made it toPhiladelphia, Lincoln's body was
put on display in the east wingof Independence Hall, the same
room where the Declaration ofIndependence was signed on July
(26:54):
4, 1776.
Abraham Lincoln was buried onMay 4, 1865, in Springfield,
Illinois, alongside his sonWillie.
The pair were buried in OakRidge Cemetery.
Eventually they were joined byMary Todd Lincoln and all of the
Lincoln children except for one.
But the story of the Lincolnspecial doesn't stop there,
because it is one of the mostfamous cases of a ghost train.
(27:16):
The funeral train is one of themost consistently spotted
instances of a ghost train.
The train is known to emergefrom a dark fog, it stops,
clocks and watches as it passesand it sends a chill through
nearby people and towns and itnever seems to reach its final
destination, perpetually looping, this particular ghost train is
(27:38):
believed to travel betweenWashington DC and Springfield,
Illinois, mimicking the originalroute through the northern
states.
Mimicking the original routethrough the northern states.
It's also mostly seen in april,when the original train
traveled the same path and, bychance, when this episode is
coming out it seems like uh, thelincoln ghost train is really
the?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
uh key to global warming just have it keep
circling the the earth, coolingdown every town.
It passes through good pointand it never stops.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Very good point.
I didn't think about that.
Yeah yeah, People who haveclaimed to see this ghost train
have identified it as Lincoln'strain because they believe they
have seen his coffin, which wasdraped in the US flag and
guarded by Union soldiers.
Sightings have been reportedall over the route, but notably
both in Albany and New York City.
John Wilkes Booth was finallycaptured on April 26th.
(28:31):
He had been hiding in a tobaccobarn on a farm.
Booth refused to come outpeacefully, so the soldiers set
fire to the barn.
When Booth exited, he was shotby Sergeant Boston Corbet,
though there are conflictingwitness accounts around whether
Booth had raised his pistols toshoot the soldiers first or not.
After John Wilkes Boothassassinated Abraham Lincoln,
(28:53):
the Booth family was publiclyvilified, Despite the fact that
Edwin was a die-hard supporterof Abraham Lincoln.
The public scrutiny forced himto temporarily retire from the
stage, but about a year later hereturned as Hamlet in New York
City at the Winter GardenTheater.
In 1872, Mary Todd wasphotographed with the ghost of
her late husband by infamousfraudster, spiritualist
(29:16):
photographer William H Mumler.
As the nation grieved itsextreme loss of fathers and sons
and spiritualism was on therise, many turned to this
photograph and Mary Todd ingeneral to find solace in the
belief that their loved oneslived on and looked over them.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
But beyond the obvious, what do all of these
stories and characters have todo with each other?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Hard to say.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And why are they important to reflect on today?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Even harder to say.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
To me, the story of the Booths and the Lincolns
represents two families impactedby the larger horrors of the
country and the impact of griefand loss on a nation.
I don't think the politicalclimate of the mid-1800s is so
different than it is today andthough, if I'm being totally
honest, I do have my doubts, butI still have hope that we will
be able to peacefully workthrough our differences and
(30:03):
navigate to a better resolutionthan the fate all of these folks
endured, but more importantthan any one individual, it is
the greater good and hopefully,as we wait our way through 2025,
we will all try to rememberthat the sum is greater than its
parts.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
They keep saying survive until 25.
And Lincoln did not follow thatadvice.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
he didn't survive until 2025 no, um, you've,
you've heard that phrase, right?
No I guess it's more of a uh,due to the tumultuous nature of
the freelance industry.
Yeah, everyone is saying, justhang on.
As soon as it gets to 2025,things will kind of mellow out
and we can continue on.
That proved to be quite false,sure.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
It did.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
And there's no catchy thing for 2026 yet 2026.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Pick up sticks.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Like I said, there's no catchy thing for 2026 yet,
just a lot of unrest.
So which means there's goodnews?
Everyone's going to get backinto spiritualism.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
That's right.
No, I mean, but it will beinteresting to see how we evolve
and cope with um.
I mean, honestly, what's reallytruly horrifying and what's
happening in this country today.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
It's pretty bad.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
It's pretty bad.
So get out there, you know,peacefully protest, make your
voice heard.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Clip some locks on cages.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
There you go, do it all you know rage against the
machine.
Now is the time If you are everwaiting for a time.
Sadly, it is upon us.
But on a brighter note, nextepisode.
We are so thrilled to share thevery special story that
inspired this whole little minideep dive into this very
fascinating spiritual,paranormal history associated
(31:52):
with the Booths, the Lincolns,the White House.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Well, this episode was kind of hyper-focused on the
Lincolns.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And the Booths.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Sure, but do we know of any other presidents or
presidential families that weresuper into the occult?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I had tried to look up other like they.
I didn't find too much.
I didn't find too much but, butI think, maybe george washington
just yeah, yeah, and peoplemaybe just realized that, like
mary todd didn't like make a lotof friends with her paranormal
belief, so they just kept itquiet, if they had it.
Anyway, thank you all for beingwith us.
(32:29):
As always, hug your neighbor,you know, talk to your friends,
keep your family close.
We will be back next episodewith a really delightful story
to share with you and I think,again, this history will give
you some really fun context tothat really epic story that
we're going to present to younext episode.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I'm still very curious about who our mystery,
possibly White House adjacentperson is.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
That's right.
Stay well, stay spooky.
We'll talk to you all soon, bye, bye.
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Lunatics Radio Hourpodcast.
My name is Abbey Brinker and Iam sitting here with Alan Kudan.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And today we are talking about seances in the
White House.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So this is a really interesting topic.
That's sort of come to me a fewdifferent ways over the years
and I've researched it indifferent capacities.
But a very mysterious friend ofours wrote a really cool story
that's sort of inspired by thisand we wanted to present that on
the podcast next episode.
But before that story plays, wereally wanted to highlight the
(00:59):
fascinating history of seancesin the White House and you know
what it felt like a good time toreflect on that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Okay, this is a real wild card.
It is, it's fun, I don't know,Last time you did this it was
Dancing Plague and that was awinner.
So now the bar is very high.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
We'll see if I can top it or at least rise to the
occasion.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So our mysterious person, are they affiliated with
the White House?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
We will reveal nothing.
Wow, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I mean, maybe I don't know.
Okay, Without getting too muchinto politics, does this person
want to make America great again?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Not, no, no, they don't, they don't.
But I will say it feels likeboth a really good and bad time
for this episode, Because we'rereally going to talk a lot today
about Abraham Lincoln in thisepisode, and you know, Lincoln
certainly is a complex human notthe pure hero I think that he's
often believed to be, but hedid a lot of radical and good
(02:02):
things while he was in office,which is obviously starkly
different from the world'sburning situation that's
happening right now.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
So we're talking about Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah Well, to some we're really talking about his
wife, but he's involved, what's?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
his wife's name.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Mary Todd Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Mary Todd Lincoln.
Yeah, okay, so this is a verydifferent period of American
history.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, and I think it's kind of again both like a
weird time to reflect on that,but maybe a good time to reflect
on American history.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So Abraham Lincoln was really into spooky stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, we're going to talk about it.
I mean, he wasn't really intospooky stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
He tolerated it, but his wife was.
Yeah, a tale as old as time.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
But do you remember our Doppelganger series?
Nope, you don't remember it atall.
Do you remember that it existed?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I recall that we had something on Doppelgangers.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
A big part of that series was Lincoln, because
Lincoln thought that he saw hisown Doppelganger and that it was
like this really horriblereflection of himself, and then
he ended up being assassinatednot too long after that.
So, anyway, we're going to getinto all of that, but the truth
is I've really always beenfascinated to some degree with
(03:14):
Mary Todd Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Really.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Especially because there's a really deep connection
between spiritualism which, asyou know, is my favorite, my
favorite occult movement and theCivil War.
But again, I just think it's sobadass that Mary hosted seances
in the White House.
So anyway, today we're going todiscuss the history of ghost
stories in the White House, theseances performed by Mary Todd
(03:36):
Lincoln and the history of theBooth family.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Are the tables oval-shaped?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
What.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
For the Oval Office.
Do they have an oval ovalshaped table or is it round?
In the oval office it lookslike an eyeball doesn't.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Isn't that where his desk is?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
where else you can do the seance no, they were not.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
They were in the red room the red room we're gonna
get to that.
We're gonna get to that let'stalk about our sources before we
get too far.
The first is a book the first isa book, the other is not a book
the book is called in thehouses of their dead, the
lincolns, the booths and thespirits, written by terry alford
.
And then I also used threearticles a whitehousehistoryorg
(04:15):
article by alexander comelcalled seances in the red room,
sea sun university libraryarticle.
The edwin Family Collection.
And a National Geographicarticle by Parisa de Gange,
seances in the White House.
But long before Lincoln wasever elected, edwin Thomas Booth
was born on November 13, 1833.
During his lifetime he touredthe United States as an actor
(04:39):
and a stage manager.
But even though Booth wasconsidered to be one of the most
talented Shakespearean actorsin the 1800s, a shadow
besmirched his reputation.
Edwin Booth is the olderbrother of John Wilkes Booth,
the man who assassinated AbrahamLincoln.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Can you imagine having to live your whole life
and be like, yeah, your littlebrother is going to assassinate
Lincoln someday, so fuck you.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Edwin and John Wilkes' father was an esteemed
actor named Junius Brutus Booth.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Great name.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Junius named his son Edwin after Edwin Forrest and
Thomas Flynn, of course, bothactors that Junius worked with.
Junius immigrated to the UnitedStates in 1821 from England.
Edwin Booth was born inMaryland on the family farm in
1833.
The dynamic between brothers,edwin John Wilkes and Junius Jr,
(05:32):
a third son, was fascinatingbecause all three ended up as
performers, just like theirfather.
This incited constantcompetition between the brothers
.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Because they're both actors.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
All three of them are actors.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
All three of them are actors and they're competing.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
That's right.
Edwin debuted on the stage inBoston on September 10th 1849.
He acted with his father in thefamous play Richard III Get
some new material.
John, Edwin and Junius Jrcontinued to put on plays
together throughout the UnitedStates long after their father
passed away in 1852.
In 1861, Edwin married fellowactress Mary Devlin.
(06:03):
The couple had a daughter namedEdwina.
Very interesting, I suppose, toname her after her father.
How'd they?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
get that name.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Unfortunately, mary Devlin passed away two years
after their marriage.
To really understand the eventssurrounding the Booths and the
Lincolns, we really need tounderstand the tragedy of the
Civil War.
Quoting from Seances in the RedRoom by Alexandra Kamel, quote
the bloodiest conflict in thenation's history was the
American Civil War from 1861until 1865.
(06:33):
Fought over the expansion ofslavery, the Civil War resulted
in approximately 750,000American fatalities nearly equal
(06:56):
to the total number of Americandeaths in the Revolutionary Wow
.
The survivor understands themeaning of their loved one's
life and death in order toproperly grieve.
End quote More than threemillion men fought in the war
and two percent of the totalpopulation of the United States
was killed during the war.
But battle wasn't the onlyreason for death.
Disease took more lives thanweapons did.
(07:17):
Two men to every one who diedon the battlefield died due to
sickness.
It was a horrible loss of life.
It was graphic and violent andinvasive, and it makes a ton of
sense that the country saw arise in a belief in the
afterlife in the years thatfollowed, and not just a belief
in the afterlife, but a beliefin the ability for the living
and the dead to interact.
(07:37):
Spiritualism is a religion basedon the belief that there is an
afterlife and spirits not onlyexist but want to communicate
with the living.
Within spiritualism, the spiritworld is believed to be a place
where spirits continue toevolve and become more advanced
than humans.
It is also believed thatbecause of this advanced state
that those in the afterlife seekto guide the living and provide
(07:57):
spiritual direction.
Spiritualism was at its heightof popularity between 1840 and
1920.
At its peak, there were about 8million followers of the
practice.
Most practitioners were fromthe upper and middle classes,
and I really can't stress thisenough.
But one of the reasons thatspiritualism rose in prominence
is really a direct result of theCivil War.
It wasn't just you know, youlost your dad or your brother or
(08:20):
your son, you lost your cousin,you lost your uncle, you lost
your neighbor, you lost yourteacher, like everybody around
you was impacted, and there wasa desperation, I think, to try
to understand and rectify thatand to reverse it to some degree
.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
The rise of industrialization and
urbanization of the country madeit easier for people to access
new types of thinking andalternative religions with
access to newspapers andperiodicals.
There are many historicspiritualist newspapers that are
very cool to read, and you canfind them on Etsy or like copies
and scans of them in differentlibrary databases.
(08:56):
It's also thought that thevalue of the family unit
increased and family sizedecreased, resulting in more
grief with individual deaths andlosses.
Right, so people started havingsmaller families, meaning that
not that your relationship withpeople is finite or whatever,
but just that there's moreemphasis placed on the loss of
(09:17):
one of four versus one of 10.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I mean sure.
Why do you think families gotsmaller though?
Did the families get smallerbecause they lost members or
just going forward after theCivil War?
They just wanted smallerfamilies.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I'm not a historian on this topic, but I would just
wildly speculate.
Yeah, my wild speculation wouldbe that maybe with disease,
with loss, with, with all youknow that people wanted smaller
families, or there was lessmoney to support bigger families
.
Maybe there was less, like,with the urbanization and
industrialization, there wasless of a need for, like, huge
(09:52):
families to support agriculture.
Right, I think it.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
It's all of those things maybe, but that's just me
guessing oh yeah, I guess itwas a moving away from everybody
being a farmer right when wasthe?
Industrial, the IndustrialRevolution 1760.
Wow, so this is post-IndustrialRevolution.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Well, so it began in Great Britain in the mid-1700s
1760.
But it sort of spread to theUnited States around 1840.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So it was exactly this time period that we're
talking about.
That makes sense.
Yeah Right, you don't need 12kids to work your fields when
you don't have fields.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Right, that's very true.
That's a quote for a t-shirt.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Spiritualism was also a way to express moral and
ethical concerns.
Many prominent spiritualistleaders were women, and most
supported women's suffrage andthe abolition of slavery.
At the time, few women wereable to speak publicly in the US
.
Spiritualism was also anopportunity for power and
self-expression that did notexist for them otherwise.
(10:53):
Additionally, the spiritualistview of the afterlife or heaven
resulted in a moral place thatthey felt was lacking on earth.
But one of the most interestingspiritualists though there were
many was Mary Todd Lincoln, whoactually held seances hoping to
connect with her deceased son inthe Red Room of the White House
.
Mary Ann Todd Lincoln was bornon December 13, 1818, into a
(11:17):
wealthy family in Kentucky, andjust to acknowledge that, mary
Todd's family did have enslavedpeople working for their family,
and she obviously grew up andchanged her political beliefs,
but that is part of her history.
As an adult, mary Todd became ahuge supporter of her husband's
political ambitions and themessage and, interestingly, she
(11:39):
was courted by Stephen A Douglasbefore she married Lincoln, who
was Lincoln's major politicalopponent.
Mary Todd and Abraham Lincolnwere married on November 4th
1842.
The couple had four sons RobertTodd Lincoln, edward Baker
Lincoln, william Wallace Lincolnand Thomas Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
She's zero creativity with her last name.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Edward, or Eddie, died of tuberculosis at age six.
William Willie died of typhoidfever at age 11.
Thomas, also known as Tad, diedat age 18 from an unknown cause
.
Tad, yeah, I mean, you missedthe point of that sentence,
which was that three of the foursons passed away.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
To tuberculosis.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
No Typhoid fever tuberculosis, and one was
unknown.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh, what's the unknown one you think?
Go ahead speculate.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Needless to say, mary Todd lived a grief-stricken
life and she was completelyovercome with the loss of her
children, particularly the lossof her son Willie in 1862.
Quoting again from seances inthe White House by Alexandra
Comel, quote First Mary ToddLincoln became inconsolable
after the passing of Willie anddesperately searched for an
(12:50):
outlet for her grief.
Shortly after his death she wasintroduced to the Lorries, a
well-known group of mediums thatwere located in Georgetown.
Mrs Lincoln found such comfortfrom the seances held by the
group that she started hostingher own seances in the Red Room
of the White House.
There's evidence to suggestthat she hosted as many as eight
seances in the White House andthat her husband was even in
(13:11):
attendance for a few of them.
The seances proved to be aneffective coping mechanism for
Mrs Lincoln that she onceremarked to her half-sister.
That quote Willie lives.
He comes to me every night andstands at the foot of the bed
with the same sweet, adorablesmile that he always had.
He does not always come alone.
Little Eddie, her son thatperished at the age of four, is
(13:31):
sometimes with him.
End quote.
That's spooky, very spooky.
In December of 1862, mary Toddhosted medium Nettie Colburn in
the White House as typical inthe Red Room.
Quoting from the NationalGeographic article by Parisa
Daganji, quote Colburn laterclaimed that the president
joined the seance and that, inher trance-like state, she
(13:52):
didn't limit herself tocommunicating with Willie
Lincoln.
Instead, the spirits shechanneled urged the president to
issue the EmancipationProclamation which they
predicted would quote be thecrowning event of his
administration and his life.
Sessions with Colburn and othermediums stoked the First Lady's
faith that Sol survived death.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
We've got some highly politicized ghosts.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
We had a ghost that came to urge her to give the
Emancipation Proclamation.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Well, that was to Lincoln directly.
That was one of the seancesthat Lincoln was at.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So he took part in these yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Wow, yep, at least a few times A spooky couple Could
be us.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Do you think he wore the hat during the seance?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
What if we're reincarnated them?
We kind of have the right bodytypes.
I think what You're like talland lanky.
I'm as you described earliertoday.
Have a good foundation.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Is there a picture of her?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Hard to say.
My beard is quite different.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But we're not totally writing it off.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The red room in the White House is a drawing room
that serves as the president'santechamber.
It borders the president'soffice and the chamber rooms.
Typically, presidents use it asa sitting room.
Despite the comfort we canassume she found in these
spiritual practices, mary Todddid eventually take a step back
from these rituals aftersocietal pressure won out.
(15:14):
Some believe that the Lincolnslinger in the White House even
after death, notably themajority of ghost sightings and
encounter claims from thishistoric landmark center around
Willie Eddie and Abraham Lincoln.
So Abraham and two of his sons,and of course, don't even get
me started on the AbrahamLincoln funeral train, which I
know I've talked about in manydifferent capacities.
(15:36):
I have an article up onlunaticsprojectcom.
I have videos up on our socialmedia.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Well, if you'd like to know more about the Abraham
Lincoln funeral train, check outour episode on ghost trains.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Or keep listening.
Lincoln himself has beenspotted in a yellow oval room
not the oval office, because Ihad to clarify that and the
Lincoln bedroom.
So there's been sightings ofhis ghost in the yellow oval
room and the Lincoln bedroom.
Both First Lady Grace Coolridgeand Queen Wilhelmina from the
Netherlands have claimed to seethe Lincoln's spirits in the
(16:10):
White House.
Jeremiah Smith, also known asJerry, was the official White
House duster for about 35 years.
My God.
Starting in the late 1860s.
He often spoke to reporters onproperty about the ghost
sightings of the Lincolns and Ithink he sort of personally did
a lot to fan the rumors and thelegend that the lincolns live on
(16:30):
in the white house you just it,just it sounds like something
out of like medieval times bring, bring in the royal duster, I
know well.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I mean, it kind of seems like an easy job so the
only thing that I can think, theonly reason why I can think,
why you need to have an officialduster- yeah.
Is because there's going to besome artifacts outside of cases
that need to get dusted, thatneed to be handled with like
museum preservation quality.
(17:01):
I can understand why you don'twant having, you know, any
random cleaning staff, but alsoyou're not having any random
cleaning staff in the whitehouse in the first place, right?
But also, do you think he didmore than just dust, or is that
it?
It's like if there's a spill hehas to call a different team no
, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
So, though, uh, government documents listed him
as a laborer.
He took on tons of differentroles, including footmanman,
valet custodian and, mostnotably, duster.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Footman.
What's a footman?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
A liveried servant whose duties include admitting
visitors and waiting at table.
That's from dictionarycom.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Okay, sure, so like a sub-butler.
Yeah, like a butler, secondchair butler second chair got it
, so he's butler second chair hewas valet that which is
obviously parking your horses dothey have cars?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
yet no, did lincoln have a car?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
probably not.
No, I mean he invented thefirst lincoln you think there
was cars.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You think lincoln invented the first lincoln yeah,
think there was cars.
You think Lincoln invented thefirst Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, why else would they call it that?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
You're right.
There's no other reason.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So, okay, he parked the horses.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That must have been murder.
You put them in their littleslot and they start wandering
around.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
You're right, there was no ropes back then at all,
so it was just a real fool'serrand.
You're right.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Okay, but it's like, yeah, bring her on my horse.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
He would sound like he was overall good guy Overall.
Yeah, he was a legend.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
But official duster.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
What do you think was his hierarchy of duties, like
if someone asked him to dust,another person asked him to
bring their horse.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I think it depends who asked him.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
That's true, it's a good idea whatever lincoln said,
he did but what if?
What if mary todd asked him togo grab her horse?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
oh, well, he actually .
He was there after them, so wedon't know he's not even part of
the story no, he's the one whodid claim to see their spirits
after they died.
I don't even know what theylooked like.
You're right, there was notportraits back then either
that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, he just looked at the five, let's keep it
moving here.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
And because we are talking about the freaky things
that the lincolns did in thewhite house oh my I also want to
call back to our deep dive,very briefly, into doppelgangers
, so let's give you a little bitmore context here.
Tuesday, november 6th 1860, theevening of abraham lincoln's
first election.
Okay, so, so the duster didoverlap with them.
(19:28):
Anyway, lincoln claimed to lookinto the mirror the night of
his first election and see twofaces staring back.
What was the duster's name?
Jeremiah Smith.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Oh, what a missed opportunity.
I really hope his name was likeDusty.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
So Lincoln, two faces staring back.
I do want to point out thatlincoln was actually very open
with his close friends andfamily.
He was truly a believer in theparanormal.
The double looked pale andsickly.
So lincoln got off from thecouch that he was resting on to
take a closer look.
Right so he's on a couch, helooks over, sees himself in the
mirror.
He's taken aback.
(20:04):
He is like who is that ghostly,sickly man in the mirror?
That can't be me.
He takes a closer look and theghostly version disappears.
But when lincoln sat back downon the couch and glanced again,
he saw the double visionreappear.
Lincoln's wife, mary,interpreted this vision as a
sign that lincoln would bere-elected for a second term but
(20:25):
that he would not survive itgiven the sickly twinge that he
saw on his double.
And of course she was right.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Lincoln was assassinated on April 15th 1865,
just a few months into hissecond term.
In addition to this earlydoppelganger sighting, lincoln
also had dreams leading up tohis assassination of his own
death, and I do imagine thatyou're probably super stressed
in the position that he was in,so I don't know.
It makes sense to me that hewas having stress dreams and he
(20:54):
was afraid that he would dieright.
There was probably all kinds ofthreats on his life.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
He's already superstitious.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Now he's getting stress dreams.
Yeah, of course he's gettingstress dreams yeah, of course
he's gonna see ghosts that wantto kill him yeah, yeah, that's
exactly what I said that he'sseeing ghosts that want to kill
him yeah yeah, that was what Isaid I mean they gotta stop in.
You know inviting john willisbooth over for dinner.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, I know it's a real gamble, so this is a little
wild card quote here, quotingfrom ward hill lamin's book the
recollections of Abraham Lincoln.
(21:40):
Quote it were stationedsoldiers who were acting as
guards and there was a throng ofpeople gazing mournfully upon
the corpse whose face wascovered, others weeping
pitifully.
Who is dead in the White House,I demanded of one of the
soldiers.
The president was his answer hewas killed by an assassin.
End quote.
All right, let's talk about JohnWilkes.
(22:00):
John Wilkes Booth blamedLincoln for the war and the
staggering loss of life.
When he was gearing up forre-election, john Wilkes' hatred
for the president grew evenstronger.
As the election loomed, wilkesstarted to develop plans to
kidnap the president from hissummer home a few miles away
from the White House and movehim across the Potomac River
into Virginia.
After Lincoln won his secondterm by a landslide, the Booth
(22:24):
brothers, john Wilkes and Edwin,continued to argue, both with
opposing political views.
Though Wilkes actually didattend Lincoln's inauguration he
was a guest of his secretfiancée Lucy Hale but he did not
attempt to assassinate him then.
He later claimed that he had anexcellent chance if he had
wished to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Now he's just showing off.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
When he discovered that Lincoln would be going to
the production of Still WatersRun Deep at a hospital, wilkes
assembled a team to kidnap thepresident from this event, but
Lincoln changed his plans at thelast minute.
On April 11, 1865, wilkes wasin attendance outside the White
House when Lincoln gave alast-minute address about giving
suffrage to former enslavedpeople, a message that continued
(23:06):
to anger Wilkes.
The next day, on April 12th,robert E Lee surrendered at
Appomattox Courthouse.
On the morning of April 14th,good Friday, booth learned that
both Lincoln and Ulysses S Grantwould be attending a
performance of the play OurAmerican Cousin later that
evening.
He set out making plans rightaway.
Other members of his group hadorders to assassinate other
(23:29):
political figures that would bein attendance the Secretary of
State William H Stewart and VicePresident Andrew Johnson.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Was anyone else attacked that night, or was
Lincoln the only one that gotLuigi'd?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
We're going to get to it in a second.
So Grant declined theinvitation at the last minute
after his wife insisted that thecouple traveled to New Jersey
to visit family Typical.
Because Booth was a formeractor, he was able to move
through the theater at will.
I think he either hadconnections there like he knew,
you know, he had like accessbehind the scenes.
He'd be like oh, you're herebecause you're an actor.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
It's just funny to think that acting gives you
superpowers.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, he was like pretty famous, I think.
Booth quietly entered Lincoln'sbox at 10.14 pm and proceeded
to shoot the president in theback of the head A true coward's
move.
Why Shoot him in the back ofthe head?
He was right next to him.
He didn't turn and look at him.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
The true coward's move is to drop a drone on the
hospital from across the otheron the other side of the planet.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I think both can be true.
Major Henry Rothborn, also inthe box, along with his fiancee
Clara Harris and Mary Todd,attempted to detain Booth, but
Booth stabbed the man and thewomen were unharmed.
Dramatically, booth next jumpedfrom the box to the stage.
He raised his knife and yelledsick semper tyrannis Latin, for
(24:53):
thus always to tyrants, a nod toBrutus's declaration at the
killing of Julius Caesar.
Some claim that Booth alsoshouted I have done it, the
South is avenged.
Though his dramatic leap to thestage was not as smooth as he
had intended, other witnessesclaim that he fractured his leg
during the maneuver when thespur on his boot caught onto a
flag.
One conspirator was able to stabthe Secretary of the State, but
the man survived.
(25:14):
The other lost his nerve andspent the evening drinking and
never made an attempt on AndrewJohnson's life.
By April 18th, wilkes was stillon the run, but a mass of
citizens lined up to mourn andpublicly view Lincoln's body.
On April 21st 1865, the Lincolnspecial left Washington DC.
The train carrying Lincoln'scoffin and a coffin containing
(25:37):
the body of his son, willie, washeaded to Springfield, illinois
.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Oh, that's the funeral train.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
There you go.
About 300 people accompaniedthe procession.
Abraham Lincoln's portrait wasattached to the front of the
train.
William Wallace, lincoln orWillie, had passed away at age
11 from bilious fever, likelytyphoid fever.
Willie died on February 20th1862, during his father's second
year in office.
Lincoln was 56 years old whenhe was assassinated by John
(26:07):
Wilkes Booth.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Far too old to be president.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
His body on board.
The train departed WashingtonDC six days later.
The Lincoln special traveledover 1,600 miles.
While the locomotive passedthrough 400 cities, there were
13 major scheduled stops.
Throughout the journey,hundreds of thousands of
mourners gathered to pay theirrespects At big stops.
Lincoln's coffin was removedfrom the train and transferred
(26:32):
to a horse-drawn carriage.
From there the carriage wouldparade Lincoln's body among the
grieving crowds.
Many also gathered along thetracks and made bonfires, sang
hymns and played instruments tohonor him.
When the train made it toPhiladelphia, Lincoln's body was
put on display in the east wingof Independence Hall, the same
room where the Declaration ofIndependence was signed on July
(26:54):
4, 1776.
Abraham Lincoln was buried onMay 4, 1865, in Springfield,
Illinois, alongside his sonWillie.
The pair were buried in OakRidge Cemetery.
Eventually they were joined byMary Todd Lincoln and all of the
Lincoln children except for one.
But the story of the Lincolnspecial doesn't stop there,
because it is one of the mostfamous cases of a ghost train.
(27:16):
The funeral train is one of themost consistently spotted
instances of a ghost train.
The train is known to emergefrom a dark fog, it stops,
clocks and watches as it passesand it sends a chill through
nearby people and towns and itnever seems to reach its final
destination, perpetually looping, this particular ghost train is
(27:38):
believed to travel betweenWashington DC and Springfield,
Illinois, mimicking the originalroute through the northern
states.
Mimicking the original routethrough the northern states.
It's also mostly seen in april,when the original train
traveled the same path and, bychance, when this episode is
coming out it seems like uh, thelincoln ghost train is really
the?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
uh key to global warming just have it keep
circling the the earth, coolingdown every town.
It passes through good pointand it never stops.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Very good point.
I didn't think about that.
Yeah yeah, People who haveclaimed to see this ghost train
have identified it as Lincoln'strain because they believe they
have seen his coffin, which wasdraped in the US flag and
guarded by Union soldiers.
Sightings have been reportedall over the route, but notably
both in Albany and New York City.
John Wilkes Booth was finallycaptured on April 26th.
(28:31):
He had been hiding in a tobaccobarn on a farm.
Booth refused to come outpeacefully, so the soldiers set
fire to the barn.
When Booth exited, he was shotby Sergeant Boston Corbet,
though there are conflictingwitness accounts around whether
Booth had raised his pistols toshoot the soldiers first or not.
After John Wilkes Boothassassinated Abraham Lincoln,
(28:53):
the Booth family was publiclyvilified, Despite the fact that
Edwin was a die-hard supporterof Abraham Lincoln.
The public scrutiny forced himto temporarily retire from the
stage, but about a year later hereturned as Hamlet in New York
City at the Winter GardenTheater.
In 1872, Mary Todd wasphotographed with the ghost of
her late husband by infamousfraudster, spiritualist
(29:16):
photographer William H Mumler.
As the nation grieved itsextreme loss of fathers and sons
and spiritualism was on therise, many turned to this
photograph and Mary Todd ingeneral to find solace in the
belief that their loved oneslived on and looked over them.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
But beyond the obvious, what do all of these
stories and characters have todo with each other?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Hard to say.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And why are they important to reflect on today?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Even harder to say.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
To me, the story of the Booths and the Lincolns
represents two families impactedby the larger horrors of the
country and the impact of griefand loss on a nation.
I don't think the politicalclimate of the mid-1800s is so
different than it is today andthough, if I'm being totally
honest, I do have my doubts, butI still have hope that we will
be able to peacefully workthrough our differences and
(30:03):
navigate to a better resolutionthan the fate all of these folks
endured, but more importantthan any one individual, it is
the greater good and hopefully,as we wait our way through 2025,
we will all try to rememberthat the sum is greater than its
parts.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
They keep saying survive until 25.
And Lincoln did not follow thatadvice.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
he didn't survive until 2025 no, um, you've,
you've heard that phrase, right?
No I guess it's more of a uh,due to the tumultuous nature of
the freelance industry.
Yeah, everyone is saying, justhang on.
As soon as it gets to 2025,things will kind of mellow out
and we can continue on.
That proved to be quite false,sure.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
It did.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
And there's no catchy thing for 2026 yet 2026.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Pick up sticks.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Like I said, there's no catchy thing for 2026 yet,
just a lot of unrest.
So which means there's goodnews?
Everyone's going to get backinto spiritualism.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
That's right.
No, I mean, but it will beinteresting to see how we evolve
and cope with um.
I mean, honestly, what's reallytruly horrifying and what's
happening in this country today.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
It's pretty bad.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
It's pretty bad.
So get out there, you know,peacefully protest, make your
voice heard.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Clip some locks on cages.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
There you go, do it all you know rage against the
machine.
Now is the time If you are everwaiting for a time.
Sadly, it is upon us.
But on a brighter note, nextepisode.
We are so thrilled to share thevery special story that
inspired this whole little minideep dive into this very
fascinating spiritual,paranormal history associated
(31:52):
with the Booths, the Lincolns,the White House.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Well, this episode was kind of hyper-focused on the
Lincolns.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And the Booths.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Sure, but do we know of any other presidents or
presidential families that weresuper into the occult?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I had tried to look up other like they.
I didn't find too much.
I didn't find too much but, butI think, maybe george washington
just yeah, yeah, and peoplemaybe just realized that, like
mary todd didn't like make a lotof friends with her paranormal
belief, so they just kept itquiet, if they had it.
Anyway, thank you all for beingwith us.
(32:29):
As always, hug your neighbor,you know, talk to your friends,
keep your family close.
We will be back next episodewith a really delightful story
to share with you and I think,again, this history will give
you some really fun context tothat really epic story that
we're going to present to younext episode.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I'm still very curious about who our mystery,
possibly White House adjacentperson is.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
That's right.
Stay well, stay spooky.
We'll talk to you all soon, bye, bye.
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