June 10, 2025 • 63 mins
Listen in as Abby and Alan discuss the origins of superhero horror, starting with the earliest instances of folk heros, and the very first superhero comics. From Hugo Hercules to Robinhood, the Scarlett Pimpernel and Namor the Submariner.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Lunatics Radio Hourpodcast.
I'm Ab Abby Brenker sittinghere with Alan Kudan.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And today we are talking about superhero horror.
Alan, this is your topic, soI'll let you take it away.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Okay, I have nothing prepared.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I understand.
So today we are talking aboutall things superheroes, from the
very earliest versions ofsuperheroes to how they've
evolved today.
And, of course, what we reallywant to get to at the end of
this journey, which I expect tobe a meaty one, is superhero
horror.
But I think, to understand thatwe have to first understand the
(00:58):
building blocks of thesuperhero subgenre.
And I will say, despite thisbeing a topic that came from
Alan and it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
No, no, no.
What are you saying here?
Despite the fact that it camefrom Alan, it's actually quite
good.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Superheroes are not something that I'm generally as
interested in outside of Batman,and I really enjoyed the
research.
No, you also love Spider-ManReign I know and you're going to
say, I do love Spider-Man Re,but I really enjoyed the
research.
I learned a lot.
I thought it was really cooland I'm excited to share it.
There's a lot to say.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's a great topic.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well done, Alan.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I'd say it's right up there with Godzilla for overall
relevance to the zeitgeist.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And we will promise to keep this series much shorter
than the Godzilla Kaiju seriesfrom two summers ago.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Why are you just handicapping me right off the
bat?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I just think it's important to let people know
You're just cutting my knees out.
We lost a lot of listeners onthat one.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Sure, we might have culled the flock.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, only the strong survive.
So today's conversation isgoing to thread between folk
heroes from history, modern daysuperheroes and, of course, the
dark side of this subgenre,which I think is really baked
into the fabric of of itgenerally.
Right, when you have someonewho is a folk hero, there's
always a double-edged swordthere what do you mean?
(02:14):
I think it's just a mechanic inthe superhero format, like it
sets itself up really well whenyou have a hero that either is
imperfect, right, which isgeneral humanity, or there's
complexities with stepping intopower that maybe you didn't have
or didn't plan, and it is arich environment for there to be
an exploration of a dark sideor ethics or other things like
(02:37):
that.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Oh, but that's where a lot of the fun writing comes
from, so I'm sure we're going toget into this later in the
episode.
However, superheroes in comicsright that's.
I guess that's where theystarted sure is, have you know,
have been in public.
Some some of these same heroeshave been in publication for uh,
almost 100 years now.
Superman started in what?
39, I think, so we're not toofar away from his hunt for his
(03:02):
uh, centennial, if you know he'spretty old and, yeah, back then
things were that I think that'sthe silver age.
Um, it's like during the 30s and40s.
Yeah, they're prettyone-dimensional characters.
They are goody two-shoes, theyhave completely rigid morals,
they never diverge from anything.
Really, uh, they're very, verypredictable and bland.
(03:24):
You know just how we liked itback in the 30s and 40s.
It's the idea of, like you know, think about what types of
movies were super successful inthe 30s and 40s.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I would give the 30s and 40s a bit more credit with
like the pre-code era of filmwas pretty good.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I mean nothing bad even happened in those decades,
but to that point, when therewas so much instability in life,
there was a lot of comfort tobe had in completely escapist,
safe entertainment.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Absolutely Yep.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So now those stories have been done again and again.
Throughout the years, thesesame characters have gone
through so many differentiterations again and again.
Throughout the years, thesesame characters have gone
through so many differentiterations, so many different
writers, so many differentmediums.
Really, Of course, they'regoing to evolve and change and
become very different things,just to keep them fun and
relevant.
And I think one of the bigchanges happened somewhere in
(04:21):
like the 80s.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
When the people who had grown up with maybe some
different facets of comics inlike the early 80s or late 70s
are now going to start writingstuff in the late 80s and 90s,
that's just like a bit edgier, abit more dramatic, a bit more
for adults.
Because, like I don't know,maybe these things, you know,
comic books are associated withyoung boys, right, yep.
(04:50):
Adults because, like I don'tknow, maybe these things, you
know, comic books, you'reassociated with young boys,
right?
Yep, but when those young boysgrow up and become comic book
artists and writers, they'regonna want to do their own thing
and they still love thesecharacters very dearly, but
they're going to put more adulttones on it.
And so we're seeing this now invideo games, where video games
used to be like a very uh, justa toy for kids.
Of course, there's alwaysadults that play video games,
but now, yes, we still havevideo games for kids, but those
(05:14):
usually come in the form of,like mobile games, the games
that come out on, likeplaystation and steam.
These are for a wholegeneration that has grown up
with games their entire lives,so they are not associated with
children.
This is like a comfort thing, abig pastime for many people and
they are made by adults fortheir adults and superheroes
went through kind of the samegenesis.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, I think that's a really great comparison
actually that I had not thoughtof.
I think superheroes just had alonger run right before they
kind of upshot, but I do thinkhad a longer run right before
they kind of upshot.
But I do think, going back toyour comment, that it's
fascinating because I thinkduring periods of turmoil
there's also studies that showpeople gravitate towards horror
(05:54):
much more, whether it's or youknow, I'm sure it's also true,
for they gravitate towardsentertainment in general and
some people want really safeentertainment and some people
want total escapism, horrorwhere they can get that
adrenaline but know that they'resafe in a theater or in their
home.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's total escape horror.
It's basically two sides of thesame coin, of just like a
musical Right, Because boththese things are so unrealistic
that you are completely removedfrom reality.
Surrealistic that you arecompletely removed from reality.
When you are watching FreddyKrueger go all campy and like
(06:30):
stab a bunch of teenagers you'renot dealing with like a moral
gray area that really just likesits with you in your bones.
You know that's a fun escapism.
I feel like it's the type ofhorror of like the road where
it's really hard decisions andreally hard times that movie or
book probably would not havedone very well during a heavy
(06:53):
depression era.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Sure.
Yeah, I'm just trying to makethe point that horror is also
part of that escapism, and wesee trends of like during World
War Two right or or during greatwars in the U?
S is when you see like Draculabecome a thing in film and that
stuff comes back.
So to your point.
Yes, I'm not saying likehereditary is the thing that
people are gravitating towardswhen there's horrifying things
happening in the world, but I dothink escapism through horror
(07:18):
is just as prevalent as escapismthrough musicals.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
And talking about superheroes and horror villains,
there's really not a lot ofdifference.
When looking at the charactersthemselves, the real difference
is like just the decisions thatthey happen to make.
So Freddy Krueger you know he'sa technically superhuman, right
?
Sure, he's a guy.
That was involved.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
He's just not wearing a cape In a terrible accident.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Not a terrible accident.
He was thrown into a fire, buthe was involved.
He's just not wearing a cape ina terrible accident.
Not a terrible accident.
He was thrown into a fire, buthe was involved in an incident
he was like a horrible, horriblehuman yes, but he has an origin
story is what you're saying.
Yes, he went through some kindof incident that gave him all
these supernatural abilitiesthat he now uses to terrorize
teenagers.
(08:03):
Yeah, Okay, had he gone throughthe same origin and then been
like.
You know what I'm now going tofight crime.
I'm going to haunt the dreamsof all the bad people on the
world that's now a superhero.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
So the line is really just tone.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, no, totally.
I think it's an interestingconversation we're having
because, thanks, yeah, no, Igenuinely do, because I do think
that this almost like black andwhite view of these things,
right, like you either havesuperheroes that are
representing horror, like wetalked about Brightburn, the
Dark Knight, things that arereally dark, or you have the
Adam West Batman, right, andit's the polar opposite.
(08:42):
It's the same character butit's through a totally different
lens and I do think that thereis probably something we could
do if we took the time to do it,to sit down and map out when
these tones are spiking rightand why, and is society shifting
towards this or shiftingtowards that?
Are we in a bit of a bubbleright now with this
oversaturation of, like theseanti-heroes and dark horror
(09:03):
things that are going to shift alittle bit in the next few
years and be a little bitlighter?
I don't know.
I'm just saying it's aninteresting conversation.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
On that note, we definitely are.
You know, the superhero bubblehas burst already.
You know we had almost 20 yearsof Marvel movies pumping out.
I mean, we've had more thanthat.
But springing back to the firsttruly successful movie in the
Marvel Cinematic Universe, whichwas Iron man 1.
(09:31):
That came out in 2008.
So now, being 2025, we're justa few years short of two decades
.
Everyone has seen the superheroorigin story.
Everyone has seen the sequel,where, like oh no, the greater
villain shows up and you have torise to the occasion.
Maybe you're going to get hitwith a couple heavy moral
choices.
That's going to really test you.
(09:51):
Yeah, but I don't know.
Again, we've seen it.
There's been so fucking manymovies and I love superheroes
and I'm over it it takes a lotto get me to see a new Marvel
movie these days.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Same.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Despite the fact that I absolutely loved this content
for so many years.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
The superhero movies that are still coming out that
people really resonate with arethe antihero motif.
The latest Deadpool andWolverine movie broke a bunch of
records yet again, despite thefact that it's just another
superhero movie technically, uh,but boy, is he morally
ambiguous or, dare I say,dubious.
(10:29):
Yes, that's what's keepingpeople interested at this point,
and this is the same overallarc that superheroes have taken
throughout history.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
They are on the straight and narrow, they're
predictable, and now we'redealing with counterculture,
just to mix it up I mean, I alsothink it's just a deepening
when you have one characterBatman, or any of these
characters, but let's just sayBatman and you're telling the
story of Batman over and, overand over again.
And I'm not complaining, right,love, love, batman.
(10:57):
But you're forced into shakingit up, otherwise, no studio is
going to greenlight your idea,right, it has to be different,
and there's only so manydifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You can explore that, and I suppose batman the
musical is going to be on itsway soon.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Well, batman the musical has indeed already
happened, dang, I missed ithowever, you hit the key word
though studios.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Uh, because like, yes , it has to be new and fresh and
different, but it also has tobe the same and that has also
been like a tried and truestaple of these franchises from
the beginning where there has tobe some consistency and it has
to be a safe bet for the studioto greenlight.
In the first place, robertPattinson's Batman was coming
(11:38):
fresh off the heels of the NolanBatman, and in this case they
realized that an ultra realistic, ultra gritty Batman was what
people liked.
And then they took it to kindof a ridiculous degree where
people don't even have specialabilities anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I would argue that it's not ridiculous personally,
but we can get to that later.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Sure, I don't know, neither villain actually has
superpowers in real life, butstill it was just too dark, too
gritty.
I don't think it was too darkor too gritty.
I don't know, neither villainactually has superpowers in real
life, but still it was just toodark, too gritty, I don't think
it was too dark or too gritty.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I think it was too long.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
No, I just I don't.
I love Adam West Batman.
I also love seeing Val Kilmerand Arnold Schwarzenegger do
ridiculous things and be super,super campy and like.
I think it's going to be awhile until we get a batman like
that again I was actuallytalking about at work.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I have a new job and I was talking about how alan and
I have been watching all thesesuperhero movies and that you
know we're both nerds, and indifferent ways, I would say, and
if you put the venn diagram ofour nerdom and just interest in
different pop culture thingsright, there's the alan Circle
and the Abbey Circle and theoverlap in the middle I think is
just the only.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
And their pomp rules.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
The only thing that exists there is the Nolan Batman
Like.
I think we've never been moreexcited to watch something
together than rewatching thatseries.
I just think it's perfectlynostalgic for both of us.
But before we get too far,let's acknowledge our sources
for this entire series.
A Historycom article the RealRobin Hood.
(13:11):
A National Geographic articlethe Real History Behind the
Legend of Sun Wukong, china'sMonkey King.
By Parisa Daganji.
An Atlas Obscura article byEric Grundhauser Meet
Spring-Heeled Jack, the LeapingDevil that terrorized Victorian
England.
A DCcom blog article Party Likeit's 1989, why Tim Burton's
(13:32):
Batman Endures.
A New York Times article, whichwas the Joker Review Are you
Kidding Me?
By AO Scott.
A Vice article by Gita Jackson.
Robert Pattinson is the mostbelievable Batman.
A Historycom article by JesseGreenspan.
Eight Pattinson is the mostbelievable Batman.
A Historycom article by JesseGreenspan eight things you may
not know about Superman.
All right, alan, in order tounderstand this very niche
(13:53):
subgenre with a bit morehistorical context, let's talk
about the history of superheroes.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Okay, why don't you start?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Predating superheroes in pop culture are mythical
heroes from literature andancient belief.
Names like Odysseus, thor,spring-heeled Jack, robin Hood,
gilgamesh and Hercules come tomind.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Disney lied to us yet again, Despite all of the fun
sing-alongs in the movie.
The official pronunciation isnow accepted as Heracles.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Ah, Heracles, not Hercules.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I mean he's named after Hera because he was born
out of wedlock.
So he's Zeus's son but notHera's son.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I forgot who's Hercules's mother, because he
has a different mom.
They named him after the mom hedidn't have.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yes, kind of fucked up.
So you know, zeus and Hera aremarried.
Yeah, who the hell is Hercules?
Oh, a mortal wife.
That's why she was just a humanand Hera was going to
absolutely murder this child,because that is her MO.
Her entire personality isapparently based around the fact
that she just goes after herhusband's mistress's offspring,
(15:00):
because that's apparently allshe is.
But regardless, they named himHeracles as a way of appeasement
, to placate her, so thathopefully she wouldn't murder
him.
And that was kind of enough.
She's still quite mean to him.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So, speaking of Heracles, can you give us, like,
a little bit more about likefor those of us I'm raising my
hand who did not see the Disneymovie, which I still have never
seen, really, yeah, oh, mygoodness, can you tell us just
(15:32):
like the story of Heracles inlike?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
five sentences or less, like why is he a folk hero
?
I love calling on Alan forGreek mythology just off the top
of his head.
So Heracles, born son of Zeusto a mortal mother.
They were not married, becausehe's already married to Hera and
then is famous for juststraight up trying to murder any
child that Zeus happens to haveout of wedlock.
They named him Heracles asappeasement, as we discussed,
(15:53):
but she still had a bit of achip on her shoulder.
So what she did?
She sent the madness intoHeracles because you, she hated
him and he's famous for beingthe strong guy incredible
strength, battle prowess, allthese things.
He's just kind of dumb.
That's his critical flaw.
He's kind of dumb and not likethor dumb.
(16:17):
So, like in norse mythology,like thor is fucking dumb, he
makes really stupid decisions.
He's actually kind of like areasonable battle tactician,
while Thor is just likeincredibly powerful and like I'm
just going to hit you with thehammer and that's how I solve my
problems.
Anyways, heracles settled down,had a wife, had kids, and then
(16:41):
Hera sends the madness onto himand he loses himself and he sees
his wife and children asmonsters and brutally, just like
, beats them to death dang,that's really dark and just as
he deals the final blow, shereleases the madness.
So he can like see live with theshame and the guilt to see what
(17:03):
happened in the final momentswhich it's pretty pretty dark
yeah so disney movie.
No, this part.
They omitted this part.
He's a very loved child in this, in the in the movie he's hades
is the bad guy and like sendsit's a whole thing I don't want
to spoil it for you, sure.
But regardless, to atone forthese horrible misdeeds, he sets
(17:27):
out and he's like reallyashamed.
But then there's also this kinginvolved, that maybe it's the
king that can officially cleansehis record or his soul, or
whatever it is.
And so this king sets out these12 labors for him to do, and I
think it actually starts as lessthan 12, but the number goes up
(17:49):
a couple times as he does thesethings and he keeps giving
Heracles these absolutelyimpossible tasks.
But you know, he's Heracles,right?
He's literally mythic, and soof course, he accomplishes all
of them with flying colors.
But every one of them is thislike monumental feat, that is
like a folktale in itself that'sfascinating.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I'll have to watch the movie none of that isn't
sorry.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Some of it is in the movie, but very weird
bastardizations, sure.
It's a very fun movie okaygreat couple, real bangers,
exciting.
But yeah, they take a lot ofliberties.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Okay, well, that's, you know, their prerogative.
I also want to take a second totalk about Robin Hood,
Obviously jumping ahead inhistory quite a bit, but I think
names like Hercules, robin Hoodeven more so than like Thor and
Gilgamesh are in Odysseus evenare, like, embedded in our
understanding.
Like most people know who RobinHood is generally, but let's
(18:48):
talk about a little bit of thehistory.
Robin Hood is famous forstealing from the rich and
giving to the poor.
The legend of Robin Hood is over700 years old and, as many
people probably know, he livesin Sherwood Forest with his
merry band of men, while KingRichard is absent.
The story goes.
Robin Hood tries to maintainjustice and works against the
(19:09):
corrupt sheriff of Nottingham.
He's a skilled archer and hedevelops into a symbol of
resistance.
There is no known sourcematerial for Robin Hood.
Rather, it was a story thatevolved and changed over the
centuries.
Some versions of the storydepict him as a man from humble
origins and others as someonewho grew up with wealth but saw
the injustices of the world anddecided to do something about it
(19:32):
.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Batman.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I'm going to quote from the Historycom article.
Academics, meanwhile, havecombed the historical record for
evidence of a real Robin Hood.
English legal records suggestthat as early as the 13th
century, r-o-b-e-h-o-d orR-A-B-U-N-H-O-D and other
variations had become commonepithets for criminals.
(19:55):
But what had inspired thesenicknames?
A fictional tale, an infamousbandit or an amalgamation of
both?
The first literary referencesto Robin Hood appear in a series
of 14th and 15th centuryballads about a violent yeoman
who lived in Sherwood Forestwith his men and frequently
clashed with the sheriff ofNottingham.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Is Sherwood Forest a real place?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, actually it is, which is part of why there's
rumors that maybe there is areal Robin Hood of history and
not just kind of this literaryreference.
But yes, it was actually theroyal hunting ground in the
province of Nottingham.
Wow, back to the quote here.
Rather than a peasant knight orfallen noble, as in later
versions, the protagonist ofthese medieval stories is a
(20:39):
commoner.
Little John and Will Scarletare part of Robin's merry crew,
meaning at the time an outlawsgang.
But Marion Friar Tuck and AlanAdele would not enter the legend
until later, possibly as partof the May Day rituals, which
you guys know is one of myfavorite topics.
But ending quote there, alan,did you grow up watching the
Robin Hood animated movie?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
But you have an awareness of Robin Hood, right?
Yes, and where do you thinkthat came from?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
From my eighth grade play Robin Hood.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Who did you play?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
King.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Richard Wow, so you were barely in the play.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Who's the prince?
Who's the lion?
In the movie there's Prince,somebody who's like a total
dickhead.
So King Richard is pulled awayon the Crusades and while he's
gone, the prince and the sheriffgo full greed happy and start
robbing the people blind.
I see I maybe had seen themovie as a very young child, but
(21:35):
you know it was not part of myrotation of simply Aladdin,
hercules and Lion King.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, ok, cool, that makes a lot of sense.
I would watch the movie fromtime to time, the animated tale,
and I think probably it wasalso a story that my dad read to
us from some kind of achildren's book.
Sun Wukong is also known as theMonkey King hailing from China.
Sun Wukong is one of the maincharacters in the infamous text
which we've referenced so manytimes on this podcast, journey
(22:05):
to the West, a novel from the16th century.
We should one of us should readit at some point.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I read it like two years ago.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Oh, did you like it?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yes, I did.
It was different than I wasexpecting, so a lot of the
stories have been heavilyinfluenced by Journey to the
West.
I think the most famous thatmost people are familiar with
would be Dragonball Z.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I knew you were going to find a way to work
Dragonball Z so Dragonball.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
the main protagonist is almost a carbon copy of the
Monkey King.
Goku rides around on a flyingNimbus, very similar to how Sumo
Kong travels around.
He has a monkey tail and, infact, he turns into a gigantic
monkey during the full moon.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
What's a nimbus?
The cloud.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
He literally rides around on a cloud that's cool On
a sentient cloud, which is howSun Wukong gets around.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
The character of Sun Wukong has lived on into the
modern era, but Sun Wukong isbased on a real historic story,
a monk from the year 629.
So did you know that that he'sactually based on a real, living
monk from history?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Oh, well, maybe someone didn't.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That's the fun thing.
So every time you're readingmythology that originates in a
different country.
So you know, journey to theWest originated in China, so it
was clearly not written inEnglish.
Every so often they're going tocome out with a new translation
and honestly, I really lovewhen historical texts get new
translations.
It's so ripe for opportunity tomodernize the language and some
(23:35):
of the best things that havemade it to America from foreign
countries are when they areinterpreted for intention rather
than accuracy.
So diverging for a moment.
An excellent example of this thefirst Metal Gear Solid game
came out in 1998.
It was on the PlayStation 1 andit made a massive, massive
(23:56):
impact on just like anyone whowas playing games at the time,
because the storytelling waskind of unprecedented with its
complexity.
It was like playing a movie andit was so good, so wonderful.
The following games were good,but they never really hit the
same magic.
The key difference was that theoriginal game, which was in
(24:16):
Japanese, the Englishtranslation was done with
intention rather than accuracy.
Once the creator of the series,hideo Kojima, learned that the
translator had taken someliberties, he flipped out, said
no, no, no, you're messing withmy work.
And said you have to translateexactly verbatim, and so that's
(24:40):
why in all future games afterthat in the franchise you end up
with some very awkward stalemoments, because it just makes
no sense fascinating so journeyto the west came out.
There was another translationthat came out, I think in like
2022 or something, and it wasupdated with, like a modern
(25:03):
tongue in mind.
So because this character islike, he's like this young,
rambunctious, chaotic guy and heshould kind of like speak as,
so they just like brought thiskind of energy to the
translation, which just made itfor such a fun read, because
these classics are wonderful,but anyone who's read something
(25:25):
that is hundreds of years old inits original language or the
original translation, it'softentimes hard to get through.
Looking back at the Iliad, theIliad is a wonderful tale of
adventure, but it was originallywritten in ancient Greek and
it's an epic poem.
When you look at the originaltranslations, it's good, but
(25:49):
also it's like not really a pageturner for modern audiences.
But then you get to stephen fry, who did his own translation of
the iliad and translated forintention and indeed took some
liberties, but he updated it formodern audiences and now it's
so fun.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Do you think English classes across the country are
allowing the Stephen Fry version?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Honestly they should, because I think the most
important thing is to get kidsexcited about reading.
There's so much incredible workout there that if you turn kids
off early and be like you knowwhat Books suck it's a chore
Then you are doing a massivedisservice.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I wholeheartedly agree.
But let's circle back here toSun Wukong and the monk that he
is based off of.
So again, he's based off of areal life monk from the year
1629.
He's based off of a real lifemonk from the year 1629.
The monk went on a 16 yearjourney traveling over 10,000
miles in search of holy texts inIndia.
So he traveled from China toIndia over 10,000 miles on foot,
(26:54):
presumably.
No on a cloud the monk's storyof his travels, known as Records
of the Western Region.
So that's like his diary servedas the basis for Journey to the
West.
Obviously, we see the throughline there.
The fictionalized version ofthe story centers around a monk,
so this is Journey to the West.
Who?
is accompanied by three helpers,one of them being a monkey
(27:15):
called Sun Wukong.
It's likely that Sun Wukong wasinspired by other legends in
local lore, but why are wetalking about him, you might ask
?
Because the monkey hassupernatural abilities.
Quoting from the nationalgeographic article by parissa
digangi, quote wait, that'ssomeone we've talked about
before I know, yeah, we've usedher articles before.
(27:37):
Yeah, quote soon.
Woo Kong possessesextraordinary powers, among them
72 transformations, whichenable him to shapeshift.
Space is no obstacle for him,and one story recounts how he
travels thousands of miles witha single somersault.
Journey to the West also exaltsSoon-Woo Kong's martial skills,
(27:59):
aided by his strength, staffand ability to fly.
Soon Wukong embodies many ofthe characteristics people
associate with monkeys,including mischievousness.
As a trickster figure, heshares attributes with other
fixtures of myth and legend,such as Loki, raynard and Brer
Rabbit.
One of these is not like theother.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, I mean that was a good trick, don't get me
wrong, but I don't know, it'sreally not on the same level.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
We're swinging in a different ballpark.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Why did you bring Briar Rabid into this?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
This is a quote.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Oh by.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Parisa Daganji.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Oh, who we trust?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Who we trust yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Okay, carry on.
Continuing the yeah, but thenhe gets more abilities.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So these are just examples right of folk heroes,
in a way, and local legends ofmythical beings that I think to
some extent pave the way forsuperheroes that are going to be
introduced much, much later.
But I think this sort of getspeople into a place where
they're ready to kind of acceptthe idea of a folk hero that's
(29:31):
wearing a costume right, orsomeone with supernatural powers
.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'm pulling this from the foreword in the translation
I read of Journey to the West.
But Sun Wukong is attributed asthe world's first superhero,
which I think that's so, so fun,because first off, he's just a
monkey.
He's just a monkey.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
He's a monkey with supernatural powers, though.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
But then he gains all of these abilities as he goes.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Which is so cool it is cool and it's always for
weird, kind of like self-servingreasons that he kind of does
these things.
But he's a monkey Like you canattribute everything he does to
the fact that he's just afucking monkey.
But then he gains theseabilities and then he kind of
fights the forces of evil.
He's pretty cool, he is cool.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
So we're next going to pivot.
We're going to jump ahead againin history and we're going to
pivot to another.
Jump ahead again in history andwe're going to pivot to another
.
This is not a folk hero, butanother figure that, I would say
again, sort of paved the wayfor the literary superhero
that's going to follow soonafter.
I'm going to also thank my mom,April Branker, for research
(30:36):
help on this section.
She pulled tons of firsthandarticles from the time when this
was happening and I'm going tohave a video on all of our
social channels that show youpictures of firsthand articles
from the time when this washappening.
And I'm going to have a videoon all of our social channels
that show you pictures of thosearticles, because I'm really,
really fascinated with thispiece of history.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
All right, so let's talk about the Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Let's talk about Spring-Heeled Jack, the
Incredible Hulk some say ofVictorian England.
See how our nerd circles justdon't really match up.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
No.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
So jumping ahead again in history.
One of my favorite figures ofall time, spring-heeled Jack, is
a being from the Victorian erafrom English folklore, but a
pretty modern one.
So Jack brings us a bit closerto our theme today because he is
a bit spooky.
But even before reports ofSpring-Heeled Jack swept the
city, it was commonplace forreports of ghost sightings in
(31:25):
London.
The lore was that pale entitieswould stalk and attack anyone
walking home alone at night, andwe've learned this researching
many different pieces offolklore.
La Llorona, for instance, comesto mind.
Right To me it sounds a littlebit like parents being like
don't walk home alone at nightbecause that the ghost of
Nottingham will get you, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Whatever they're called the ghost of Nottingham.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
You know and you get it right.
That's something like parentsmight say to caution their kids
into good behavior.
From 1803 to 1804, sightings ofthe Hammersmith ghost were
reported on the western side ofthe city.
There was also a Southamptonghost, both taking their name
from their neighborhoods oforigin.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Was there a summer house ghost and a winter house
ghost?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
We'll have to check with the Hamptons crowd for that
.
Spring-heeled Jack was a folkfigure that scared locals.
Some thought he was a demonicfire-breathing man.
Others believed him to be anincredibly agile human who could
jump strangely high.
In 1837, residents of a Londonneighborhood started to report
strange encounters and incidentswith a mysterious and
(32:29):
terrifying man.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
There was a man that had a vertical leap of over two
feet.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
All right, alan, all right.
Jack seemed to have an affinityfor women and some mild trigger
warning here.
Most of his attacks andincidents surrounded women and
also sometimes felt a bitinappropriate in nature.
I'll just say that.
And the very first sightingattributed to jack happened in
october of 1837, which wasreported by a woman working as a
(32:56):
servant named mary stevens.
She was walking on lavenderhill after visiting her parents
in battersea.
As she walked through claphamcommon, a terrifying shadowy
figure leapt out in front of her.
And again, quick little warninghere the man held her arms and
kissed her while he ripped ather clothing.
She described his hands asquote cold and clammy, as those
(33:18):
of a corpse end.
Quote.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
How does she know what a corpse's hands feel like?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Maybe she's a mortician.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Oh, good point.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
After screaming, the man fled the scene.
A search ensued, but hecouldn't be found.
The next day, a figure leaptout in front of a traveling
carriage, causing a crash.
I also just think in VictorianEngland people probably were a
little bit more comfortable withdeath than we are.
Like if somebody died, theydied in the house, versus always
bringing them to, like an eldercare or a funeral home.
(33:46):
Right like you probably hadmore exposure to dead bodies.
no, you just died in the streetright, so either way walk out
and, you know, die of diphtheriathey're around, you know it was
a tough time so she probablyknew what a corpse felt like
true, yeah, she probably had topush them aside to get up all
the time, oh the time, yeah, ohyeah.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
So Victorian times are what century 1800?
No 70s.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
What we're talking about right now is the mid-1800s
.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Gotcha yeah, lots of diphtheria.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Sometimes he was reported to ring a doorbell and
use his claws to shred theclothing of the person who came
to the door.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Oh, come on.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Other times it was reported that Jack would attack
people as they walked along thestreet.
Is Jack?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
a cat, because this sounds very much like just the
behavior of a cat.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
That's true.
Reports around this time alsoclaimed that the assailant
presented as a ghost or a bear,in addition to a man and a devil
.
Additional reports claimed theman to be wearing red shoes or
armor.
One theory holds that a groupof fancy men took to the streets
on a bet and caused chaos, andsimilar theories were that, like
a group of college studentsmaybe had all kind of band
(34:49):
together, especially once thehoax because this was being
reported in newspapers.
It was a big thing that peoplewere actually reporting all the
time.
It was causing a ton of fear incommunities and so you know?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
sorry, you just glanced over the fact of a group
of fancy men they were fancymen.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
There's nothing more to say.
I think you can picture whatI'm saying.
They were dressed fancy andtheir sunday best they had
custom suits, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Okay, they looks great well, back then all suits
were custom good point.
So what makes them more fancythan others?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
they're richer.
Maybe they're wearing jewelry,maybe Maybe a top hat.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I have top hats.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
It's all speculation.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
We're just slinging misinformation now.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Well, that's what they're used to.
Listening to this podcast.
That's true.
The press generally remainsskeptical of the reports.
In January of 1838, john Cowan,the Lord Mayor of London, made
a public statement.
He tried to reinforce thetheory that the attacks were due
to a band of wealthy mencausing chaos, or fancy men.
Eventually, the figure came tobe known as Spring-Heeled Jack
(35:50):
due to his supernatural abilityto leap.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I'm sorry.
Are there roving bands of fancymen trying to stop
Spring-Heeled Jack?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
No, the theory is that they were maybe the ones
who got a little too drunk onenight and caused some chaos.
And people misinterpreted thatas this like scary, demonic guy.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
So there's like a bunch of fancy dressed rich guys
and they're like oh, Reginald,give me a boost, and then they
just throw him into the street.
Yeah, and they're just like haha.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
And they're like oh, there's a newspaper article
about it, let's keep going.
Let me slice your dress with myscissors.
In 1838, a man rang thedoorbell of jane alsop.
He was yelling thatspring-heeled jack had been
caught and they needed her help.
Jane delivered a glowing candleto the man in the street
outside of her home, but herewarded her by blowing blue
(36:42):
flames into her face andshredding her clothes and
scratching her with metal claws.
What a dickhead.
Yeah well, he's a fancy man.
Jane was unable to get awayuntil her sister came to her
rescue.
She would later describe theman as having red, fireball-like
eyes, wearing a tight whiteoutfit and a helmet.
This account only fueled therumors that jack was indeed a
(37:04):
devil just a quick pause here.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Things are very different in different parts of
the world.
On one side of the planet, wehave a monkey who's gonna be
like you know what?
I'm gonna steal peaches fromthe gods.
And on the other is like I amgonna dress up in fancy clothes
and I'm going to rip this girl'sdress and run away.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yep, all kinds of stuff going on.
All kinds of meaning you canpull from that.
A few days later, a woman namedLucy Sales was walking with her
sister in a different Londonneighborhood when a man jumped
in front of the pair.
Again, he was described asbreathing blue flames.
This time, jack's dragon breathcaused the woman to have a
seizure-like fit.
Both of the attacks on Lucy andJane happened closer to
(37:47):
London's city center than theothers, which mostly took place
in the suburbs.
Sightings of Spring-Heeled Jacklasted until 1904, so this
started in 1837 and lasted until1904.
Many believe the last sightinghappened in Liverpool.
And again, this is like alittle bit silly.
But it's this figure right,this real person in real life.
(38:09):
And whatever it was whether itwas a bunch of different drunk
guys causing chaos or one guycausing a hoax- or just one
drunk guy, one really rich drunkguy causing crazy chaos.
Could be very similar to Batmanin that way, but you can see
right, people believed in hissupernatural ability to jump and
that part is a bit silly andattack and it just again.
(38:32):
It's like cementing this beliefin a human that has extra
powers.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Occam's razor right.
The simplest explanation isusually the one and so like.
Okay, so a guy's really good atjust like popping out,
Someone's good at throwing him,or he's good at just jumping in
front of people.
I have a hard time believingthat there is someone with
supernatural abilities and thisis what he chooses to do with it
.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
The point isn't that you have to believe in this
hundreds of years later.
The point is that at this timein Victorian London people did,
and it's setting the scene forthe pop culture and literature
that will follow.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
In Victorian London, the only thing that people were
concerned with is who's fuckingwho?
Speaker 1 (39:15):
That is not entirely true, but it was a big part of
life.
All right, Ellen, I know thatyou're dying to know.
Let's about the bald knobbersjumping over to the united
states around the same timeperiod.
The bald knobbers were a groupof vigilantes that hailed from
the ozark region of missouri.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
That's right the only thing that I'm familiar with
the ozark region is the ozarkhowler what's the ozark howler
alan?
Is it?
Speaker 1 (39:39):
because you just played a cryptid game last night
uh-huhhuh, and it's a cryptid.
Tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
He kind of makes a whale, that kind of paralyzes
people and then he kind of maulson them.
He's got what?
Then he mauls them like a bear.
He mauls them like a bear, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
All right, this kind of sounds like Spring-Heeled.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Jack, he's nothing like Spring-Heel.
Jack breathes fire and he jumpsaround and he shreds people
with his claws.
No, he shreds their clothes.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Well, it's because he never got.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
He's like a very angry embroidery machine.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Okay, I don't know that.
He's an embroidery machine,he's a very angry seamstress.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Well, he's a very bad one.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Maybe conspiracy theory?
He's like a tailor or aseamstress who wants more
business because people need tobring their clothes for repair.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Honestly, he sounds like a bouncy version of Edward
Scissorhands.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
So the reason I'm talking about this group of
vigilantes is because theybecame known for their costumes.
The bald knobbers would wearblack horned hoods with the
white outline of a face paintedon top of it.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
It's cool.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, it's really freaky when you look at it.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Are there actual photographs of this?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
There's one that I found all posted on social media
.
That's cool.
The name came from the BaldKnob summits of the Ozark
Mountains.
The Bald Knobbers had mostlysided with the Union during the
Civil War and their rival gang,the Anti-Bald Knobbers I'm not
making that up had mostly sidedwith the Confederacy.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
If only groups were so transparent with sides.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yeah, it would be much more clear on people's
intentions.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
I would appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Similar to Robin Hood , the Knobbers had started as a
group dedicated to opposingcorruption in government,
helping those in need and aidinglocal law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
So these are just vigilantes that take the law.
They're basically deputizingthemselves.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Which is certainly sometimes problematic.
But that's their history, andI'm talking about them because I
think it's important tounderstand the historical
context of things.
But that's something that washappening maybe a little bit
later in time than we realizeand could have a direct
influence on some themes that wesee in a lot of very classic
superhero formats.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Right, so vigilantes are?
It's such a weird term becauseit really is dependent on what
side of history you're on.
If you come out on top, thengreat, you are, yeah, a
vigilante for justice.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
If you come out on the wrong side of history, then
you're just a terrorist I think,as we've learned in these past
years in the united states, likebeing on the right or wrong
side of history is subjective towhat you believe in 100 and so
even in batman films, right,sorry that I keep using this as
an example, it's what I know.
you typically, especially inmodern Batman films, have people
(42:27):
that are very anti-Batman.
You have people that arepro-Batman and people that are
anti-Batman, and to me, I thinkthat is the very essence of a
vigilante.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Sure, using Batman as the example.
It's interesting becausegenerally the police force is
massively pro-batman, because inthe batman universe jim gordon
and most of the actual beat copsare very pro-batman because
they make their jobs doable.
You know he is a super copeffectively yeah while
(42:55):
simultaneously not stealingtheir thunder.
the only people that are likeanti-batman are the politicians
or the people that kind of likecome in as like the special cop
unit to try to clean up theforce or whatever, and usually
they are some kind of foil forcorruption.
You know, it's always like atricky situation.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Certainly.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah, batman is breaking the law.
There's no two ways about that.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Breaking the law.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Excellent Judas Priest callback.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
But yeah, he is breaking the law.
So you know, where do youofficially draw the line of
someone who is working for thegreater good versus someone that
is just a criminal?
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Please answer.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I'm always for vigilante justice, I gotta say
it is pretty fun.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I mean, how many times throughout history before
we lived in, I mean we live in avery urban environment that is
effectively a police state, youknow.
But previously how many timeswere like small towns would just
like call up the boys to make aposse to root out that one guy
(44:03):
who you know might have likebeaten up that girl.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Well, I will also say one of the most prevalent
examples of this, which I'm noteven getting into right now, is
cowboy culture of the West andlike Western films and that,
again and again, is this exactstoryline right?
And so, yeah, certainly, 100%.
It's something that and it'simportant to mention, even if
(44:28):
we're not going to go into itbecause Westerns are so
prevalent in the United States.
And so when you think aboutsuperheroes and what came before
, Westerns did right and peopleunderstand some of these plot
lines not that people wouldn't,but you could sort of see how
they kind of all these differentlike literary references and
historic references meldedtogether to create modern
(44:48):
superheroes.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
So what's kind of fun is like?
In the DC universe they haveJonah Hex, who is the cowboy
superhero straight up out of the1800s, and the only time he
kind of comes into play iseither in his own comic or when
superheroes happen to timetravel back to the Wild West.
And he is just a cowboy and hehas like a scar on half his face
(45:10):
.
He kind of looks like Two-Face.
He doesn't have any abilities,he's just a cowboy, but he
always, like, takes justice inhis own hand.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
And that still makes him on caliber with the rest of
the Justice League.
Interesting, I didn't realizethat.
And that still makes him oncaliber with the rest of the
Justice League.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Interesting.
I didn't realize that there'sso many examples of these
mythical heroes from antiquitythat obviously had supernatural
powers and obviously have somany connections to a modern day
superhero, and so I think partof that also tells me that
there's always a need for thissort of content.
And some other names that cometo mind you have Atlanta, who is
(45:48):
known for her extreme accuracy.
You have Achilles, who is thewarrior of all men, and then you
have Thialzi from Norsemythology, whose speed rivaled
that of the gods.
So there's just so manyexamples that we could go into
and talk about and explore, andperhaps if you follow us on
social media and check out ourwebsite, you may be delighted to
find some more explorationthere.
But I would love to kind ofpivot and start talking about
(46:09):
this was one of the coolestparts of the research for me the
very first examples ofsuperheroes in the world right
as we know them today, modernsuperheroes, which started in
comics and newspapers.
A comic called Hugo Hercules atthat time pronounced Hercules or
the Boy Wonder is seen as theearliest superhero comic.
(46:32):
It was first released onSeptember 7th 1902.
It was a newspaper comic in theChicago Tribune.
The comic was written byWilhelm Heinrich Detlev-Korner.
It ran for only five months,concluding on January 11, 1903.
Shout out, jess.
All in all, there were 17strips.
The character of Hugo Herculeswas a jolly man with superhero
(46:55):
strength.
He would help out locals aroundtown as he stumbled upon people
who were in trouble, and he wasstrong enough to lift an
elephant or a car, depending onwhatever the situation called
for.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Those are his two abilities.
He could lift a car or anelephant.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
No, he could just lift heavy, heavy things.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
And those are two examples how often did he
encounter having to lift anelephant.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
I think probably once , though I would have loved to
say that the earliest example ofa superhero was a dark
anti-hero, but he truly was justa good, helpful fella.
Another very early example of asuperhero is the Scarlet
Pimpernel.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I'm sorry.
What is a Pimpernel?
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Pimpernel is a plant.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Here's a picture.
Okay, so he's like the redficus.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's right, very good example.
It premiered on October 15th1903.
The Scarlet Pimpernel wasoriginally created as a play
co-written by Baroness AmuskaOrksy and her husband Montague
Barstow, which premiered inLondon in 1903.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Wait, she was a baroness and her husband had no
title.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Maybe he was a baroness and her husband had no
title.
Maybe he was a baron, I don'tknow.
Maybe I got lazy.
Due to the play's success,orksy adapted it into a novel
which was published in 1905.
So the content of the ScarletPimpernel tells the story of a
character named Sir PercyBlankney, who is this very
highfalutin guy from Englishsociety, and he leads this
(48:22):
double life as the ScarletPimpernel, which is similar to,
again, batman and many othersuperheroes.
This is set during the FrenchRevolution's reign of terror,
okay, and so he sort of becomesthis master of disguise and a
hero right in his own own right,a vigilante like we talked
(48:43):
about, and he rescues frencharistocrats from the guillotine
and he gets them back to safety.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
So he's maybe a little bit um what a fucking
yeah against the people yeah,well, what is even the word for
that?
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Scab.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Scab, yeah, fucking scab, fuck that guy.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Fascinating how the tables have turned right.
That seems so outside of thegenre now.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, you rarely encounter a superhero.
That's just like.
You know what I'm just here for?
Speaker 1 (49:17):
the 1%.
By the 1930s, superheroesstarted to emerge that I would
say bear a closer resemblance tohow we think of them today.
Doc Savage, a folk hero with nosupernatural powers, again a la
Batman, started to grace thepages of comic books in 1933.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
What did Doc Savage do?
He said he had no superpowers.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
So his real name I find this hilarious was Clark
Savage Jr.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
You would think like Doc Savage is like oh, he's
nicknamed that because he's sosavage.
But it's just that his lastname was Savage and he's a
junior.
He's a scientist, a detective,a warrior.
He likes to write wrongs thisis a quote writes wrongs and
punishes evildoers.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
He likes to write.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
He likes to write poetry.
No, he's just like a hero typewho Big into fanfic.
If you see a picture of himhe's a little bit like maybe an
Indiana Jones or James Bond type.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
He's a little sexy.
The Shadow was created in 1931,so two years before Doc Savage.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Oh sure, the Shadow.
Yeah, oh, you're familiar.
I mean the Shadow, that's avery famous hero.
So besides having like anamazing comic run, the Shadow
was redone as a movie in the 90s, I believe.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Well, even before that, it actually originated as
a mysterious radio host.
The Shadow evolved into a comicbook character eventually, but
in 1930, the character debutedas the host of an actual radio
show.
Oh sure, because they alwayssigned off like only the Shadow
knows, and some episodesincluded narration from Orson
Welles.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Gotcha so fun.
Shadow slash, batman adjacenttrivia fact.
So fast forward to 2000.
Whatever, sam Raimi was lookingto make a superhero movie
before Spider-Man.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Because this was before he got the license to
Spider-Man and he was trying tomake a Batman movie and he
couldn't get the license toBatman.
So instead he tried to get thelicense to the Shadow, and
similarly he could not get thelicense to the shadow and
similarly he could not get thelicense to that.
So he instead had this wholescript already written and then
(51:28):
he just kind of redid it andmade up his own superhero called
dark man, who is anamalgamation of batman and the
shadow, and so you can watchdark man.
It's a very fun superhero movie, kind of like an antihero.
Stars Liam Neeson, of allpeople, this guy who's like
covered in bandages and fightscrime.
(51:48):
But yeah, it's a very weirdkind of dystopian world.
It's kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
I love that.
I love when you know so muchabout a thing that I just
casually mentioned.
Superman, often cited as thefirst true superhero, was
released in 1938, the HumanTorch in 1939, and Namor the
Submariner in 1939 as well.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
I always pronounce it Submariner and I'm 90% sure
it's pronounced Submariner.
However, I said that word infront of your father and he said
Submariner.
He said it's pronouncedSubmariner, However, I said that
word in front of your father.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
And he said Submariner.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
He said it is not Submariner, because that is a
below average Mariner.
It is pronounced Submariner andI said okay.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
We'll have to take his word for it.
He would know.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
He would.
Yeah, Namor is very cool.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
He was Marvel's answer to aquaman well, no, he
came out in 1939 what he cameout before aquaman yeah, he came
out the same year as superman Ican't believe that namor came
out before aquaman, who?
Came out in 1941.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
That's nuts.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yep, the more you know.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Huh, namor is kind of cool.
He is definitely a slept onhero.
He's in most comics thatinvolve the Justice League Sorry
, that involve, like, the, thepantheon of DC heroes or of
Marvel heroes.
Excuse me, because he has likesuch a big place of, like you
know, being Lord of the Seas andeverything.
(53:22):
He's just Marvel's version ofAquaman, but he came first.
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
It's more accurate to say that Aquaman is DC's
version of Namor.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yes, yes sure.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
In 1940, the two first female superheroes that I
could find.
If I'm wrong, that's fine, youcan tell me, but the first two
that I could locate were created.
One was Fantomah.
She was created by FletcherHanks, who is also known for
creating the character Stardust.
The super wizard Fantomah couldfly, transfigure objects into
(53:59):
other things, levitate objectsand, most powerfully, in my
opinion, force humans to mutateinto different forms.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
So she has polymorph.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
That's what I yes exactly, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
What is the delineation between wizard and
super wizard?
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Well, okay, so Stardust the super wizard is a
different character that Imentioned because I read that
and I was like what the fuck isthat he's a guy.
But I am actually.
I've prepared a littleexplainer on him.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
Oh, thank God.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Stardust, the Super Wizard, is a super smart
detective type who is incrediblystrong and good in combat, but
also in control of planetaryforces and outer space.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
In control of outer space.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
In control of space.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
He's a super wizard.
So, honestly, he's in hisweakest form on Earth.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Yeah, so he's something for us all to kind of
think about as we fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
So here he's like look, watch me do some card
tricks.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
Meanwhile outside he's like let me just move this
black hole around right, no,yeah, holy fuck, he can destroy
civilizations but it doesn'tstop there, alan, because the
other female character right, sobesides fantoma is theician
from Mars by Centaur Comics,actually predates Fantoma as the
(55:25):
first female superheroine bytwo months.
Magician from Mars, or Jane6EM35, has a human mother from
Earth and a father from Mars,where she was born.
Classic Jane developed specialpowers because she was exposed
to cathode rays as a child, notbecause of her alien father,
which I thought was interesting.
The lore is that she has theability to use 100% of her brain
(55:49):
, which allows her to usetelekinesis, wield superhuman
strength, nullify gravity,transform objects, cast
illusions and, you know, beimmortal.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
Oh, I love this trope , just the whole like oh yeah,
everyone uses 10% of their brain, except this one superhuman
that uses 100%.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
The magician from Mars?
Speaker 2 (56:10):
Yeah, so you know obviously, misnomer, we don't
actually use 10% of our brain.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
No.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
It's just typically 10% of your brain is active at
one point.
Like you know, different pointsof your brain do different
things, right?
I also love that she got herpowers from cathode rays.
You know where you too can beexposed to cathode rays?
Tell us Any non-flat screen TV.
So those are called CRTtelevisions.
The CRT stands for cathode raytube.
(56:38):
So if you just happen to sittoo close to a TV growing up,
apparently you too are a superwizard.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Oh no, that's a different character, but very
cool, I think, one of our mostfun topics in a long time, and I
like to say fantoma.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
I think it's fantoma.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Maybe, but I've recorded a whole social video
where I say fantoma.
So we're just really leaninginto it.
Anyway, we're gonna put a pinin the convo right here, because
we're gonna come back next timeand pick up.
There's still some to be saidabout the iconic superheroes,
right, we're gonna get into thegenesis of superman, we're gonna
get into spider-man, we'regonna get into batman and then
(57:16):
we're gonna get into the horrorof superheroes, which is what
we're leading up to.
Right.
That's the big climax, the big,what's it called?
It's like a big boss, I guess,a big supervillain, yeah, great,
anyway.
So I'm glad I'm the only onehere enjoying this, but I think
you're looking for archvillain.
Ah, archvillain, yes, so thatwill be the big sort of or, dare
(57:37):
I say, nemesis.
I have many of those too.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
Which is another Greek mythology illusion.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Nemesis.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah, tell us what you mean.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
Nemesis was the Greek goddess of indignation and
misdeeds.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I love her, all right .
Well, anyway, the point iswe're going to put a pin in this
right now.
Lots more to say we're going topick it up next time Really
deep diving into Superman, andpick it up next time really deep
diving into superman, and we'regonna go from there.
Thank you guys so much asalways for being here.
If you haven't checked out areally fun little short audio
drama from last episode, pleasedo.
It was really really fun to puttogether and I hope you guys
(58:13):
enjoyed it as an official spookykickoff to summer and yeah,
until then, please read allcomics, um, especially the
spooky ones.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I have done a deep dive into everything involved,
anything horror comic relatedand while I am by no means an
expert on the subject, I've atleast read the ones that I
thought sounded very fun.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
There you go, and I have had such a blast.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
It's probably one of the most slept on genres that I
would highly recommend foranybody who just enjoys spooky
things and also just like reallycool storytelling.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
Well, if someone's going to go away and read one
superhero horror comic, what doyou suggest?
One Ask to be one.
Speaker 2 (59:03):
If I have to pick just one, I'm going to go with
my absolute favorite, whichwould be the Immortal Hulk.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I thought you were going to say Spawn.
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Nope, spawn is great.
Spawn is absolutely wonderful,but it's far more of a time
commitment and there's a lot ofhills and valleys along the
journey.
Sure you know, not all of thecontent is equally amazing.
I'm going to say Cloak andDagger Interesting.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Which is my favorite comic book run of all time.
Speaker 2 (59:34):
Cloak and Dagger is a lot of fun.
I have the original four booksImmortal Hulk not to be confused
with the incredible hulk, it'svery different.
So immortal hulk is one is acomic run that actually wrapped
fairly recently, is only 50issues long the whole thing.
So it's a.
It's a start to finish yeah uh,and I really love being able to
(59:56):
read something to completionwell, since you gave two.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
Of course, we've alluded to this a few times, but
one that holds a very specialplace in my heart is a limited
run from Spider-Man calledSpider-Man Reign, which is an
alternate universe version ofSpider-Man, and it's much, much
darker than I think theSpider-Man that most people are
aware of, but we will get tothat more in the upcoming
episode of this series.
If you're going to go and kindof check some things out, those
(01:00:27):
are our suggestions, as always.
Thank you all so much for beinghere, stay super, stay safe and
stay spooky.
We'll talk to you soon.
Bye.
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Lunatics Radio Hourpodcast.
I'm Ab Abby Brenker sittinghere with Alan Kudan.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And today we are talking about superhero horror.
Alan, this is your topic, soI'll let you take it away.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Okay, I have nothing prepared.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I understand.
So today we are talking aboutall things superheroes, from the
very earliest versions ofsuperheroes to how they've
evolved today.
And, of course, what we reallywant to get to at the end of
this journey, which I expect tobe a meaty one, is superhero
horror.
But I think, to understand thatwe have to first understand the
(00:58):
building blocks of thesuperhero subgenre.
And I will say, despite thisbeing a topic that came from
Alan and it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
No, no, no.
What are you saying here?
Despite the fact that it camefrom Alan, it's actually quite
good.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Superheroes are not something that I'm generally as
interested in outside of Batman,and I really enjoyed the
research.
No, you also love Spider-ManReign I know and you're going to
say, I do love Spider-Man Re,but I really enjoyed the
research.
I learned a lot.
I thought it was really cooland I'm excited to share it.
There's a lot to say.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's a great topic.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well done, Alan.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I'd say it's right up there with Godzilla for overall
relevance to the zeitgeist.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And we will promise to keep this series much shorter
than the Godzilla Kaiju seriesfrom two summers ago.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Why are you just handicapping me right off the
bat?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I just think it's important to let people know
You're just cutting my knees out.
We lost a lot of listeners onthat one.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Sure, we might have culled the flock.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, only the strong survive.
So today's conversation isgoing to thread between folk
heroes from history, modern daysuperheroes and, of course, the
dark side of this subgenre,which I think is really baked
into the fabric of of itgenerally.
Right, when you have someonewho is a folk hero, there's
always a double-edged swordthere what do you mean?
(02:14):
I think it's just a mechanic inthe superhero format, like it
sets itself up really well whenyou have a hero that either is
imperfect, right, which isgeneral humanity, or there's
complexities with stepping intopower that maybe you didn't have
or didn't plan, and it is arich environment for there to be
an exploration of a dark sideor ethics or other things like
(02:37):
that.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Oh, but that's where a lot of the fun writing comes
from, so I'm sure we're going toget into this later in the
episode.
However, superheroes in comicsright that's.
I guess that's where theystarted sure is, have you know,
have been in public.
Some some of these same heroeshave been in publication for uh,
almost 100 years now.
Superman started in what?
39, I think, so we're not toofar away from his hunt for his
(03:02):
uh, centennial, if you know he'spretty old and, yeah, back then
things were that I think that'sthe silver age.
Um, it's like during the 30s and40s.
Yeah, they're prettyone-dimensional characters.
They are goody two-shoes, theyhave completely rigid morals,
they never diverge from anything.
Really, uh, they're very, verypredictable and bland.
(03:24):
You know just how we liked itback in the 30s and 40s.
It's the idea of, like you know, think about what types of
movies were super successful inthe 30s and 40s.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I would give the 30s and 40s a bit more credit with
like the pre-code era of filmwas pretty good.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I mean nothing bad even happened in those decades,
but to that point, when therewas so much instability in life,
there was a lot of comfort tobe had in completely escapist,
safe entertainment.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Absolutely Yep.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So now those stories have been done again and again.
Throughout the years, thesesame characters have gone
through so many differentiterations again and again.
Throughout the years, thesesame characters have gone
through so many differentiterations, so many different
writers, so many differentmediums.
Really, Of course, they'regoing to evolve and change and
become very different things,just to keep them fun and
relevant.
And I think one of the bigchanges happened somewhere in
(04:21):
like the 80s.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
When the people who had grown up with maybe some
different facets of comics inlike the early 80s or late 70s
are now going to start writingstuff in the late 80s and 90s,
that's just like a bit edgier, abit more dramatic, a bit more
for adults.
Because, like I don't know,maybe these things, you know,
comic books are associated withyoung boys, right, yep.
(04:50):
Adults because, like I don'tknow, maybe these things, you
know, comic books, you'reassociated with young boys,
right?
Yep, but when those young boysgrow up and become comic book
artists and writers, they'regonna want to do their own thing
and they still love thesecharacters very dearly, but
they're going to put more adulttones on it.
And so we're seeing this now invideo games, where video games
used to be like a very uh, justa toy for kids.
Of course, there's alwaysadults that play video games,
but now, yes, we still havevideo games for kids, but those
(05:14):
usually come in the form of,like mobile games, the games
that come out on, likeplaystation and steam.
These are for a wholegeneration that has grown up
with games their entire lives,so they are not associated with
children.
This is like a comfort thing, abig pastime for many people and
they are made by adults fortheir adults and superheroes
went through kind of the samegenesis.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, I think that's a really great comparison
actually that I had not thoughtof.
I think superheroes just had alonger run right before they
kind of upshot, but I do thinkhad a longer run right before
they kind of upshot.
But I do think, going back toyour comment, that it's
fascinating because I thinkduring periods of turmoil
there's also studies that showpeople gravitate towards horror
(05:54):
much more, whether it's or youknow, I'm sure it's also true,
for they gravitate towardsentertainment in general and
some people want really safeentertainment and some people
want total escapism, horrorwhere they can get that
adrenaline but know that they'resafe in a theater or in their
home.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's total escape horror.
It's basically two sides of thesame coin, of just like a
musical Right, Because boththese things are so unrealistic
that you are completely removedfrom reality.
Surrealistic that you arecompletely removed from reality.
When you are watching FreddyKrueger go all campy and like
(06:30):
stab a bunch of teenagers you'renot dealing with like a moral
gray area that really just likesits with you in your bones.
You know that's a fun escapism.
I feel like it's the type ofhorror of like the road where
it's really hard decisions andreally hard times that movie or
book probably would not havedone very well during a heavy
(06:53):
depression era.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Sure.
Yeah, I'm just trying to makethe point that horror is also
part of that escapism, and wesee trends of like during World
War Two right or or during greatwars in the U?
S is when you see like Draculabecome a thing in film and that
stuff comes back.
So to your point.
Yes, I'm not saying likehereditary is the thing that
people are gravitating towardswhen there's horrifying things
happening in the world, but I dothink escapism through horror
(07:18):
is just as prevalent as escapismthrough musicals.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
And talking about superheroes and horror villains,
there's really not a lot ofdifference.
When looking at the charactersthemselves, the real difference
is like just the decisions thatthey happen to make.
So Freddy Krueger you know he'sa technically superhuman, right
?
Sure, he's a guy.
That was involved.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
He's just not wearing a cape In a terrible accident.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Not a terrible accident.
He was thrown into a fire, buthe was involved.
He's just not wearing a cape ina terrible accident.
Not a terrible accident.
He was thrown into a fire, buthe was involved in an incident
he was like a horrible, horriblehuman yes, but he has an origin
story is what you're saying.
Yes, he went through some kindof incident that gave him all
these supernatural abilitiesthat he now uses to terrorize
teenagers.
(08:03):
Yeah, Okay, had he gone throughthe same origin and then been
like.
You know what I'm now going tofight crime.
I'm going to haunt the dreamsof all the bad people on the
world that's now a superhero.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
So the line is really just tone.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, no, totally.
I think it's an interestingconversation we're having
because, thanks, yeah, no, Igenuinely do, because I do think
that this almost like black andwhite view of these things,
right, like you either havesuperheroes that are
representing horror, like wetalked about Brightburn, the
Dark Knight, things that arereally dark, or you have the
Adam West Batman, right, andit's the polar opposite.
(08:42):
It's the same character butit's through a totally different
lens and I do think that thereis probably something we could
do if we took the time to do it,to sit down and map out when
these tones are spiking rightand why, and is society shifting
towards this or shiftingtowards that?
Are we in a bit of a bubbleright now with this
oversaturation of, like theseanti-heroes and dark horror
(09:03):
things that are going to shift alittle bit in the next few
years and be a little bitlighter?
I don't know.
I'm just saying it's aninteresting conversation.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
On that note, we definitely are.
You know, the superhero bubblehas burst already.
You know we had almost 20 yearsof Marvel movies pumping out.
I mean, we've had more thanthat.
But springing back to the firsttruly successful movie in the
Marvel Cinematic Universe, whichwas Iron man 1.
(09:31):
That came out in 2008.
So now, being 2025, we're justa few years short of two decades
.
Everyone has seen the superheroorigin story.
Everyone has seen the sequel,where, like oh no, the greater
villain shows up and you have torise to the occasion.
Maybe you're going to get hitwith a couple heavy moral
choices.
That's going to really test you.
(09:51):
Yeah, but I don't know.
Again, we've seen it.
There's been so fucking manymovies and I love superheroes
and I'm over it it takes a lotto get me to see a new Marvel
movie these days.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Same.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Despite the fact that I absolutely loved this content
for so many years.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
The superhero movies that are still coming out that
people really resonate with arethe antihero motif.
The latest Deadpool andWolverine movie broke a bunch of
records yet again, despite thefact that it's just another
superhero movie technically, uh,but boy, is he morally
ambiguous or, dare I say,dubious.
(10:29):
Yes, that's what's keepingpeople interested at this point,
and this is the same overallarc that superheroes have taken
throughout history.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
They are on the straight and narrow, they're
predictable, and now we'redealing with counterculture,
just to mix it up I mean, I alsothink it's just a deepening
when you have one characterBatman, or any of these
characters, but let's just sayBatman and you're telling the
story of Batman over and, overand over again.
And I'm not complaining, right,love, love, batman.
(10:57):
But you're forced into shakingit up, otherwise, no studio is
going to greenlight your idea,right, it has to be different,
and there's only so manydifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You can explore that, and I suppose batman the
musical is going to be on itsway soon.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Well, batman the musical has indeed already
happened, dang, I missed ithowever, you hit the key word
though studios.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Uh, because like, yes , it has to be new and fresh and
different, but it also has tobe the same and that has also
been like a tried and truestaple of these franchises from
the beginning where there has tobe some consistency and it has
to be a safe bet for the studioto greenlight.
In the first place, robertPattinson's Batman was coming
(11:38):
fresh off the heels of the NolanBatman, and in this case they
realized that an ultra realistic, ultra gritty Batman was what
people liked.
And then they took it to kindof a ridiculous degree where
people don't even have specialabilities anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I would argue that it's not ridiculous personally,
but we can get to that later.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Sure, I don't know, neither villain actually has
superpowers in real life, butstill it was just too dark, too
gritty.
I don't think it was too darkor too gritty.
I don't know, neither villainactually has superpowers in real
life, but still it was just toodark, too gritty, I don't think
it was too dark or too gritty.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I think it was too long.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
No, I just I don't.
I love Adam West Batman.
I also love seeing Val Kilmerand Arnold Schwarzenegger do
ridiculous things and be super,super campy and like.
I think it's going to be awhile until we get a batman like
that again I was actuallytalking about at work.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I have a new job and I was talking about how alan and
I have been watching all thesesuperhero movies and that you
know we're both nerds, and indifferent ways, I would say, and
if you put the venn diagram ofour nerdom and just interest in
different pop culture thingsright, there's the alan Circle
and the Abbey Circle and theoverlap in the middle I think is
just the only.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
And their pomp rules.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
The only thing that exists there is the Nolan Batman
Like.
I think we've never been moreexcited to watch something
together than rewatching thatseries.
I just think it's perfectlynostalgic for both of us.
But before we get too far,let's acknowledge our sources
for this entire series.
A Historycom article the RealRobin Hood.
(13:11):
A National Geographic articlethe Real History Behind the
Legend of Sun Wukong, china'sMonkey King.
By Parisa Daganji.
An Atlas Obscura article byEric Grundhauser Meet
Spring-Heeled Jack, the LeapingDevil that terrorized Victorian
England.
A DCcom blog article Party Likeit's 1989, why Tim Burton's
(13:32):
Batman Endures.
A New York Times article, whichwas the Joker Review Are you
Kidding Me?
By AO Scott.
A Vice article by Gita Jackson.
Robert Pattinson is the mostbelievable Batman.
A Historycom article by JesseGreenspan.
Eight Pattinson is the mostbelievable Batman.
A Historycom article by JesseGreenspan eight things you may
not know about Superman.
All right, alan, in order tounderstand this very niche
(13:53):
subgenre with a bit morehistorical context, let's talk
about the history of superheroes.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Okay, why don't you start?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Predating superheroes in pop culture are mythical
heroes from literature andancient belief.
Names like Odysseus, thor,spring-heeled Jack, robin Hood,
gilgamesh and Hercules come tomind.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Disney lied to us yet again, Despite all of the fun
sing-alongs in the movie.
The official pronunciation isnow accepted as Heracles.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Ah, Heracles, not Hercules.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I mean he's named after Hera because he was born
out of wedlock.
So he's Zeus's son but notHera's son.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I forgot who's Hercules's mother, because he
has a different mom.
They named him after the mom hedidn't have.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yes, kind of fucked up.
So you know, zeus and Hera aremarried.
Yeah, who the hell is Hercules?
Oh, a mortal wife.
That's why she was just a humanand Hera was going to
absolutely murder this child,because that is her MO.
Her entire personality isapparently based around the fact
that she just goes after herhusband's mistress's offspring,
(15:00):
because that's apparently allshe is.
But regardless, they named himHeracles as a way of appeasement
, to placate her, so thathopefully she wouldn't murder
him.
And that was kind of enough.
She's still quite mean to him.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So, speaking of Heracles, can you give us, like,
a little bit more about likefor those of us I'm raising my
hand who did not see the Disneymovie, which I still have never
seen, really, yeah, oh, mygoodness, can you tell us just
(15:32):
like the story of Heracles inlike?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
five sentences or less, like why is he a folk hero
?
I love calling on Alan forGreek mythology just off the top
of his head.
So Heracles, born son of Zeusto a mortal mother.
They were not married, becausehe's already married to Hera and
then is famous for juststraight up trying to murder any
child that Zeus happens to haveout of wedlock.
They named him Heracles asappeasement, as we discussed,
(15:53):
but she still had a bit of achip on her shoulder.
So what she did?
She sent the madness intoHeracles because you, she hated
him and he's famous for beingthe strong guy incredible
strength, battle prowess, allthese things.
He's just kind of dumb.
That's his critical flaw.
He's kind of dumb and not likethor dumb.
(16:17):
So, like in norse mythology,like thor is fucking dumb, he
makes really stupid decisions.
He's actually kind of like areasonable battle tactician,
while Thor is just likeincredibly powerful and like I'm
just going to hit you with thehammer and that's how I solve my
problems.
Anyways, heracles settled down,had a wife, had kids, and then
(16:41):
Hera sends the madness onto himand he loses himself and he sees
his wife and children asmonsters and brutally, just like
, beats them to death dang,that's really dark and just as
he deals the final blow, shereleases the madness.
So he can like see live with theshame and the guilt to see what
(17:03):
happened in the final momentswhich it's pretty pretty dark
yeah so disney movie.
No, this part.
They omitted this part.
He's a very loved child in this, in the in the movie he's hades
is the bad guy and like sendsit's a whole thing I don't want
to spoil it for you, sure.
But regardless, to atone forthese horrible misdeeds, he sets
(17:27):
out and he's like reallyashamed.
But then there's also this kinginvolved, that maybe it's the
king that can officially cleansehis record or his soul, or
whatever it is.
And so this king sets out these12 labors for him to do, and I
think it actually starts as lessthan 12, but the number goes up
(17:49):
a couple times as he does thesethings and he keeps giving
Heracles these absolutelyimpossible tasks.
But you know, he's Heracles,right?
He's literally mythic, and soof course, he accomplishes all
of them with flying colors.
But every one of them is thislike monumental feat, that is
like a folktale in itself that'sfascinating.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I'll have to watch the movie none of that isn't
sorry.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Some of it is in the movie, but very weird
bastardizations, sure.
It's a very fun movie okaygreat couple, real bangers,
exciting.
But yeah, they take a lot ofliberties.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Okay, well, that's, you know, their prerogative.
I also want to take a second totalk about Robin Hood,
Obviously jumping ahead inhistory quite a bit, but I think
names like Hercules, robin Hoodeven more so than like Thor and
Gilgamesh are in Odysseus evenare, like, embedded in our
understanding.
Like most people know who RobinHood is generally, but let's
(18:48):
talk about a little bit of thehistory.
Robin Hood is famous forstealing from the rich and
giving to the poor.
The legend of Robin Hood is over700 years old and, as many
people probably know, he livesin Sherwood Forest with his
merry band of men, while KingRichard is absent.
The story goes.
Robin Hood tries to maintainjustice and works against the
(19:09):
corrupt sheriff of Nottingham.
He's a skilled archer and hedevelops into a symbol of
resistance.
There is no known sourcematerial for Robin Hood.
Rather, it was a story thatevolved and changed over the
centuries.
Some versions of the storydepict him as a man from humble
origins and others as someonewho grew up with wealth but saw
the injustices of the world anddecided to do something about it
(19:32):
.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Batman.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I'm going to quote from the Historycom article.
Academics, meanwhile, havecombed the historical record for
evidence of a real Robin Hood.
English legal records suggestthat as early as the 13th
century, r-o-b-e-h-o-d orR-A-B-U-N-H-O-D and other
variations had become commonepithets for criminals.
(19:55):
But what had inspired thesenicknames?
A fictional tale, an infamousbandit or an amalgamation of
both?
The first literary referencesto Robin Hood appear in a series
of 14th and 15th centuryballads about a violent yeoman
who lived in Sherwood Forestwith his men and frequently
clashed with the sheriff ofNottingham.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Is Sherwood Forest a real place?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, actually it is, which is part of why there's
rumors that maybe there is areal Robin Hood of history and
not just kind of this literaryreference.
But yes, it was actually theroyal hunting ground in the
province of Nottingham.
Wow, back to the quote here.
Rather than a peasant knight orfallen noble, as in later
versions, the protagonist ofthese medieval stories is a
(20:39):
commoner.
Little John and Will Scarletare part of Robin's merry crew,
meaning at the time an outlawsgang.
But Marion Friar Tuck and AlanAdele would not enter the legend
until later, possibly as partof the May Day rituals, which
you guys know is one of myfavorite topics.
But ending quote there, alan,did you grow up watching the
Robin Hood animated movie?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
But you have an awareness of Robin Hood, right?
Yes, and where do you thinkthat came from?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
From my eighth grade play Robin Hood.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Who did you play?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
King.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Richard Wow, so you were barely in the play.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Who's the prince?
Who's the lion?
In the movie there's Prince,somebody who's like a total
dickhead.
So King Richard is pulled awayon the Crusades and while he's
gone, the prince and the sheriffgo full greed happy and start
robbing the people blind.
I see I maybe had seen themovie as a very young child, but
(21:35):
you know it was not part of myrotation of simply Aladdin,
hercules and Lion King.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, ok, cool, that makes a lot of sense.
I would watch the movie fromtime to time, the animated tale,
and I think probably it wasalso a story that my dad read to
us from some kind of achildren's book.
Sun Wukong is also known as theMonkey King hailing from China.
Sun Wukong is one of the maincharacters in the infamous text
which we've referenced so manytimes on this podcast, journey
(22:05):
to the West, a novel from the16th century.
We should one of us should readit at some point.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I read it like two years ago.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Oh, did you like it?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yes, I did.
It was different than I wasexpecting, so a lot of the
stories have been heavilyinfluenced by Journey to the
West.
I think the most famous thatmost people are familiar with
would be Dragonball Z.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I knew you were going to find a way to work
Dragonball Z so Dragonball.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
the main protagonist is almost a carbon copy of the
Monkey King.
Goku rides around on a flyingNimbus, very similar to how Sumo
Kong travels around.
He has a monkey tail and, infact, he turns into a gigantic
monkey during the full moon.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
What's a nimbus?
The cloud.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
He literally rides around on a cloud that's cool On
a sentient cloud, which is howSun Wukong gets around.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
The character of Sun Wukong has lived on into the
modern era, but Sun Wukong isbased on a real historic story,
a monk from the year 629.
So did you know that that he'sactually based on a real, living
monk from history?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Oh, well, maybe someone didn't.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That's the fun thing.
So every time you're readingmythology that originates in a
different country.
So you know, journey to theWest originated in China, so it
was clearly not written inEnglish.
Every so often they're going tocome out with a new translation
and honestly, I really lovewhen historical texts get new
translations.
It's so ripe for opportunity tomodernize the language and some
(23:35):
of the best things that havemade it to America from foreign
countries are when they areinterpreted for intention rather
than accuracy.
So diverging for a moment.
An excellent example of this thefirst Metal Gear Solid game
came out in 1998.
It was on the PlayStation 1 andit made a massive, massive
(23:56):
impact on just like anyone whowas playing games at the time,
because the storytelling waskind of unprecedented with its
complexity.
It was like playing a movie andit was so good, so wonderful.
The following games were good,but they never really hit the
same magic.
The key difference was that theoriginal game, which was in
(24:16):
Japanese, the Englishtranslation was done with
intention rather than accuracy.
Once the creator of the series,hideo Kojima, learned that the
translator had taken someliberties, he flipped out, said
no, no, no, you're messing withmy work.
And said you have to translateexactly verbatim, and so that's
(24:40):
why in all future games afterthat in the franchise you end up
with some very awkward stalemoments, because it just makes
no sense fascinating so journeyto the west came out.
There was another translationthat came out, I think in like
2022 or something, and it wasupdated with, like a modern
(25:03):
tongue in mind.
So because this character islike, he's like this young,
rambunctious, chaotic guy and heshould kind of like speak as,
so they just like brought thiskind of energy to the
translation, which just made itfor such a fun read, because
these classics are wonderful,but anyone who's read something
(25:25):
that is hundreds of years old inits original language or the
original translation, it'softentimes hard to get through.
Looking back at the Iliad, theIliad is a wonderful tale of
adventure, but it was originallywritten in ancient Greek and
it's an epic poem.
When you look at the originaltranslations, it's good, but
(25:49):
also it's like not really a pageturner for modern audiences.
But then you get to stephen fry, who did his own translation of
the iliad and translated forintention and indeed took some
liberties, but he updated it formodern audiences and now it's
so fun.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Do you think English classes across the country are
allowing the Stephen Fry version?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Honestly they should, because I think the most
important thing is to get kidsexcited about reading.
There's so much incredible workout there that if you turn kids
off early and be like you knowwhat Books suck it's a chore
Then you are doing a massivedisservice.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I wholeheartedly agree.
But let's circle back here toSun Wukong and the monk that he
is based off of.
So again, he's based off of areal life monk from the year
1629.
He's based off of a real lifemonk from the year 1629.
The monk went on a 16 yearjourney traveling over 10,000
miles in search of holy texts inIndia.
So he traveled from China toIndia over 10,000 miles on foot,
(26:54):
presumably.
No on a cloud the monk's storyof his travels, known as Records
of the Western Region.
So that's like his diary servedas the basis for Journey to the
West.
Obviously, we see the throughline there.
The fictionalized version ofthe story centers around a monk,
so this is Journey to the West.
Who?
is accompanied by three helpers,one of them being a monkey
(27:15):
called Sun Wukong.
It's likely that Sun Wukong wasinspired by other legends in
local lore, but why are wetalking about him, you might ask
?
Because the monkey hassupernatural abilities.
Quoting from the nationalgeographic article by parissa
digangi, quote wait, that'ssomeone we've talked about
before I know, yeah, we've usedher articles before.
(27:37):
Yeah, quote soon.
Woo Kong possessesextraordinary powers, among them
72 transformations, whichenable him to shapeshift.
Space is no obstacle for him,and one story recounts how he
travels thousands of miles witha single somersault.
Journey to the West also exaltsSoon-Woo Kong's martial skills,
(27:59):
aided by his strength, staffand ability to fly.
Soon Wukong embodies many ofthe characteristics people
associate with monkeys,including mischievousness.
As a trickster figure, heshares attributes with other
fixtures of myth and legend,such as Loki, raynard and Brer
Rabbit.
One of these is not like theother.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, I mean that was a good trick, don't get me
wrong, but I don't know, it'sreally not on the same level.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
We're swinging in a different ballpark.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Why did you bring Briar Rabid into this?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
This is a quote.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Oh by.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Parisa Daganji.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Oh, who we trust?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Who we trust yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Okay, carry on.
Continuing the yeah, but thenhe gets more abilities.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So these are just examples right of folk heroes,
in a way, and local legends ofmythical beings that I think to
some extent pave the way forsuperheroes that are going to be
introduced much, much later.
But I think this sort of getspeople into a place where
they're ready to kind of acceptthe idea of a folk hero that's
(29:31):
wearing a costume right, orsomeone with supernatural powers
.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'm pulling this from the foreword in the translation
I read of Journey to the West.
But Sun Wukong is attributed asthe world's first superhero,
which I think that's so, so fun,because first off, he's just a
monkey.
He's just a monkey.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
He's a monkey with supernatural powers, though.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
But then he gains all of these abilities as he goes.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Which is so cool it is cool and it's always for
weird, kind of like self-servingreasons that he kind of does
these things.
But he's a monkey Like you canattribute everything he does to
the fact that he's just afucking monkey.
But then he gains theseabilities and then he kind of
fights the forces of evil.
He's pretty cool, he is cool.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
So we're next going to pivot.
We're going to jump ahead againin history and we're going to
pivot to another.
Jump ahead again in history andwe're going to pivot to another
.
This is not a folk hero, butanother figure that, I would say
again, sort of paved the wayfor the literary superhero
that's going to follow soonafter.
I'm going to also thank my mom,April Branker, for research
(30:36):
help on this section.
She pulled tons of firsthandarticles from the time when this
was happening and I'm going tohave a video on all of our
social channels that show youpictures of firsthand articles
from the time when this washappening.
And I'm going to have a videoon all of our social channels
that show you pictures of thosearticles, because I'm really,
really fascinated with thispiece of history.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
All right, so let's talk about the Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Let's talk about Spring-Heeled Jack, the
Incredible Hulk some say ofVictorian England.
See how our nerd circles justdon't really match up.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
No.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
So jumping ahead again in history.
One of my favorite figures ofall time, spring-heeled Jack, is
a being from the Victorian erafrom English folklore, but a
pretty modern one.
So Jack brings us a bit closerto our theme today because he is
a bit spooky.
But even before reports ofSpring-Heeled Jack swept the
city, it was commonplace forreports of ghost sightings in
(31:25):
London.
The lore was that pale entitieswould stalk and attack anyone
walking home alone at night, andwe've learned this researching
many different pieces offolklore.
La Llorona, for instance, comesto mind.
Right To me it sounds a littlebit like parents being like
don't walk home alone at nightbecause that the ghost of
Nottingham will get you, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Whatever they're called the ghost of Nottingham.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
You know and you get it right.
That's something like parentsmight say to caution their kids
into good behavior.
From 1803 to 1804, sightings ofthe Hammersmith ghost were
reported on the western side ofthe city.
There was also a Southamptonghost, both taking their name
from their neighborhoods oforigin.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Was there a summer house ghost and a winter house
ghost?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
We'll have to check with the Hamptons crowd for that
.
Spring-heeled Jack was a folkfigure that scared locals.
Some thought he was a demonicfire-breathing man.
Others believed him to be anincredibly agile human who could
jump strangely high.
In 1837, residents of a Londonneighborhood started to report
strange encounters and incidentswith a mysterious and
(32:29):
terrifying man.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
There was a man that had a vertical leap of over two
feet.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
All right, alan, all right.
Jack seemed to have an affinityfor women and some mild trigger
warning here.
Most of his attacks andincidents surrounded women and
also sometimes felt a bitinappropriate in nature.
I'll just say that.
And the very first sightingattributed to jack happened in
october of 1837, which wasreported by a woman working as a
(32:56):
servant named mary stevens.
She was walking on lavenderhill after visiting her parents
in battersea.
As she walked through claphamcommon, a terrifying shadowy
figure leapt out in front of her.
And again, quick little warninghere the man held her arms and
kissed her while he ripped ather clothing.
She described his hands asquote cold and clammy, as those
(33:18):
of a corpse end.
Quote.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
How does she know what a corpse's hands feel like?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Maybe she's a mortician.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Oh, good point.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
After screaming, the man fled the scene.
A search ensued, but hecouldn't be found.
The next day, a figure leaptout in front of a traveling
carriage, causing a crash.
I also just think in VictorianEngland people probably were a
little bit more comfortable withdeath than we are.
Like if somebody died, theydied in the house, versus always
bringing them to, like an eldercare or a funeral home.
(33:46):
Right like you probably hadmore exposure to dead bodies.
no, you just died in the streetright, so either way walk out
and, you know, die of diphtheriathey're around, you know it was
a tough time so she probablyknew what a corpse felt like
true, yeah, she probably had topush them aside to get up all
the time, oh the time, yeah, ohyeah.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
So Victorian times are what century 1800?
No 70s.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
What we're talking about right now is the mid-1800s
.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Gotcha yeah, lots of diphtheria.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Sometimes he was reported to ring a doorbell and
use his claws to shred theclothing of the person who came
to the door.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Oh, come on.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Other times it was reported that Jack would attack
people as they walked along thestreet.
Is Jack?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
a cat, because this sounds very much like just the
behavior of a cat.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
That's true.
Reports around this time alsoclaimed that the assailant
presented as a ghost or a bear,in addition to a man and a devil
.
Additional reports claimed theman to be wearing red shoes or
armor.
One theory holds that a groupof fancy men took to the streets
on a bet and caused chaos, andsimilar theories were that, like
a group of college studentsmaybe had all kind of band
(34:49):
together, especially once thehoax because this was being
reported in newspapers.
It was a big thing that peoplewere actually reporting all the
time.
It was causing a ton of fear incommunities and so you know?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
sorry, you just glanced over the fact of a group
of fancy men they were fancymen.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
There's nothing more to say.
I think you can picture whatI'm saying.
They were dressed fancy andtheir sunday best they had
custom suits, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Okay, they looks great well, back then all suits
were custom good point.
So what makes them more fancythan others?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
they're richer.
Maybe they're wearing jewelry,maybe Maybe a top hat.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I have top hats.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
It's all speculation.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
We're just slinging misinformation now.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Well, that's what they're used to.
Listening to this podcast.
That's true.
The press generally remainsskeptical of the reports.
In January of 1838, john Cowan,the Lord Mayor of London, made
a public statement.
He tried to reinforce thetheory that the attacks were due
to a band of wealthy mencausing chaos, or fancy men.
Eventually, the figure came tobe known as Spring-Heeled Jack
(35:50):
due to his supernatural abilityto leap.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I'm sorry.
Are there roving bands of fancymen trying to stop
Spring-Heeled Jack?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
No, the theory is that they were maybe the ones
who got a little too drunk onenight and caused some chaos.
And people misinterpreted thatas this like scary, demonic guy.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
So there's like a bunch of fancy dressed rich guys
and they're like oh, Reginald,give me a boost, and then they
just throw him into the street.
Yeah, and they're just like haha.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
And they're like oh, there's a newspaper article
about it, let's keep going.
Let me slice your dress with myscissors.
In 1838, a man rang thedoorbell of jane alsop.
He was yelling thatspring-heeled jack had been
caught and they needed her help.
Jane delivered a glowing candleto the man in the street
outside of her home, but herewarded her by blowing blue
(36:42):
flames into her face andshredding her clothes and
scratching her with metal claws.
What a dickhead.
Yeah well, he's a fancy man.
Jane was unable to get awayuntil her sister came to her
rescue.
She would later describe theman as having red, fireball-like
eyes, wearing a tight whiteoutfit and a helmet.
This account only fueled therumors that jack was indeed a
(37:04):
devil just a quick pause here.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Things are very different in different parts of
the world.
On one side of the planet, wehave a monkey who's gonna be
like you know what?
I'm gonna steal peaches fromthe gods.
And on the other is like I amgonna dress up in fancy clothes
and I'm going to rip this girl'sdress and run away.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yep, all kinds of stuff going on.
All kinds of meaning you canpull from that.
A few days later, a woman namedLucy Sales was walking with her
sister in a different Londonneighborhood when a man jumped
in front of the pair.
Again, he was described asbreathing blue flames.
This time, jack's dragon breathcaused the woman to have a
seizure-like fit.
Both of the attacks on Lucy andJane happened closer to
(37:47):
London's city center than theothers, which mostly took place
in the suburbs.
Sightings of Spring-Heeled Jacklasted until 1904, so this
started in 1837 and lasted until1904.
Many believe the last sightinghappened in Liverpool.
And again, this is like alittle bit silly.
But it's this figure right,this real person in real life.
(38:09):
And whatever it was whether itwas a bunch of different drunk
guys causing chaos or one guycausing a hoax- or just one
drunk guy, one really rich drunkguy causing crazy chaos.
Could be very similar to Batmanin that way, but you can see
right, people believed in hissupernatural ability to jump and
that part is a bit silly andattack and it just again.
(38:32):
It's like cementing this beliefin a human that has extra
powers.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Occam's razor right.
The simplest explanation isusually the one and so like.
Okay, so a guy's really good atjust like popping out,
Someone's good at throwing him,or he's good at just jumping in
front of people.
I have a hard time believingthat there is someone with
supernatural abilities and thisis what he chooses to do with it
.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
The point isn't that you have to believe in this
hundreds of years later.
The point is that at this timein Victorian London people did,
and it's setting the scene forthe pop culture and literature
that will follow.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
In Victorian London, the only thing that people were
concerned with is who's fuckingwho?
Speaker 1 (39:15):
That is not entirely true, but it was a big part of
life.
All right, Ellen, I know thatyou're dying to know.
Let's about the bald knobbersjumping over to the united
states around the same timeperiod.
The bald knobbers were a groupof vigilantes that hailed from
the ozark region of missouri.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
That's right the only thing that I'm familiar with
the ozark region is the ozarkhowler what's the ozark howler
alan?
Is it?
Speaker 1 (39:39):
because you just played a cryptid game last night
uh-huhhuh, and it's a cryptid.
Tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
He kind of makes a whale, that kind of paralyzes
people and then he kind of maulson them.
He's got what?
Then he mauls them like a bear.
He mauls them like a bear, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
All right, this kind of sounds like Spring-Heeled.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Jack, he's nothing like Spring-Heel.
Jack breathes fire and he jumpsaround and he shreds people
with his claws.
No, he shreds their clothes.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Well, it's because he never got.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
He's like a very angry embroidery machine.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Okay, I don't know that.
He's an embroidery machine,he's a very angry seamstress.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Well, he's a very bad one.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Maybe conspiracy theory?
He's like a tailor or aseamstress who wants more
business because people need tobring their clothes for repair.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Honestly, he sounds like a bouncy version of Edward
Scissorhands.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
So the reason I'm talking about this group of
vigilantes is because theybecame known for their costumes.
The bald knobbers would wearblack horned hoods with the
white outline of a face paintedon top of it.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
It's cool.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, it's really freaky when you look at it.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Are there actual photographs of this?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
There's one that I found all posted on social media
.
That's cool.
The name came from the BaldKnob summits of the Ozark
Mountains.
The Bald Knobbers had mostlysided with the Union during the
Civil War and their rival gang,the Anti-Bald Knobbers I'm not
making that up had mostly sidedwith the Confederacy.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
If only groups were so transparent with sides.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yeah, it would be much more clear on people's
intentions.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
I would appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Similar to Robin Hood , the Knobbers had started as a
group dedicated to opposingcorruption in government,
helping those in need and aidinglocal law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
So these are just vigilantes that take the law.
They're basically deputizingthemselves.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Which is certainly sometimes problematic.
But that's their history, andI'm talking about them because I
think it's important tounderstand the historical
context of things.
But that's something that washappening maybe a little bit
later in time than we realizeand could have a direct
influence on some themes that wesee in a lot of very classic
superhero formats.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Right, so vigilantes are?
It's such a weird term becauseit really is dependent on what
side of history you're on.
If you come out on top, thengreat, you are, yeah, a
vigilante for justice.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
If you come out on the wrong side of history, then
you're just a terrorist I think,as we've learned in these past
years in the united states, likebeing on the right or wrong
side of history is subjective towhat you believe in 100 and so
even in batman films, right,sorry that I keep using this as
an example, it's what I know.
you typically, especially inmodern Batman films, have people
(42:27):
that are very anti-Batman.
You have people that arepro-Batman and people that are
anti-Batman, and to me, I thinkthat is the very essence of a
vigilante.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Sure, using Batman as the example.
It's interesting becausegenerally the police force is
massively pro-batman, because inthe batman universe jim gordon
and most of the actual beat copsare very pro-batman because
they make their jobs doable.
You know he is a super copeffectively yeah while
(42:55):
simultaneously not stealingtheir thunder.
the only people that are likeanti-batman are the politicians
or the people that kind of likecome in as like the special cop
unit to try to clean up theforce or whatever, and usually
they are some kind of foil forcorruption.
You know, it's always like atricky situation.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Certainly.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah, batman is breaking the law.
There's no two ways about that.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Breaking the law.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Excellent Judas Priest callback.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
But yeah, he is breaking the law.
So you know, where do youofficially draw the line of
someone who is working for thegreater good versus someone that
is just a criminal?
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Please answer.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I'm always for vigilante justice, I gotta say
it is pretty fun.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I mean, how many times throughout history before
we lived in, I mean we live in avery urban environment that is
effectively a police state, youknow.
But previously how many timeswere like small towns would just
like call up the boys to make aposse to root out that one guy
(44:03):
who you know might have likebeaten up that girl.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Well, I will also say one of the most prevalent
examples of this, which I'm noteven getting into right now, is
cowboy culture of the West andlike Western films and that,
again and again, is this exactstoryline right?
And so, yeah, certainly, 100%.
It's something that and it'simportant to mention, even if
(44:28):
we're not going to go into itbecause Westerns are so
prevalent in the United States.
And so when you think aboutsuperheroes and what came before
, Westerns did right and peopleunderstand some of these plot
lines not that people wouldn't,but you could sort of see how
they kind of all these differentlike literary references and
historic references meldedtogether to create modern
(44:48):
superheroes.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
So what's kind of fun is like?
In the DC universe they haveJonah Hex, who is the cowboy
superhero straight up out of the1800s, and the only time he
kind of comes into play iseither in his own comic or when
superheroes happen to timetravel back to the Wild West.
And he is just a cowboy and hehas like a scar on half his face
(45:10):
.
He kind of looks like Two-Face.
He doesn't have any abilities,he's just a cowboy, but he
always, like, takes justice inhis own hand.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
And that still makes him on caliber with the rest of
the Justice League.
Interesting, I didn't realizethat.
And that still makes him oncaliber with the rest of the
Justice League.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Interesting.
I didn't realize that there'sso many examples of these
mythical heroes from antiquitythat obviously had supernatural
powers and obviously have somany connections to a modern day
superhero, and so I think partof that also tells me that
there's always a need for thissort of content.
And some other names that cometo mind you have Atlanta, who is
(45:48):
known for her extreme accuracy.
You have Achilles, who is thewarrior of all men, and then you
have Thialzi from Norsemythology, whose speed rivaled
that of the gods.
So there's just so manyexamples that we could go into
and talk about and explore, andperhaps if you follow us on
social media and check out ourwebsite, you may be delighted to
find some more explorationthere.
But I would love to kind ofpivot and start talking about
(46:09):
this was one of the coolestparts of the research for me the
very first examples ofsuperheroes in the world right
as we know them today, modernsuperheroes, which started in
comics and newspapers.
A comic called Hugo Hercules atthat time pronounced Hercules or
the Boy Wonder is seen as theearliest superhero comic.
(46:32):
It was first released onSeptember 7th 1902.
It was a newspaper comic in theChicago Tribune.
The comic was written byWilhelm Heinrich Detlev-Korner.
It ran for only five months,concluding on January 11, 1903.
Shout out, jess.
All in all, there were 17strips.
The character of Hugo Herculeswas a jolly man with superhero
(46:55):
strength.
He would help out locals aroundtown as he stumbled upon people
who were in trouble, and he wasstrong enough to lift an
elephant or a car, depending onwhatever the situation called
for.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Those are his two abilities.
He could lift a car or anelephant.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
No, he could just lift heavy, heavy things.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
And those are two examples how often did he
encounter having to lift anelephant.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
I think probably once , though I would have loved to
say that the earliest example ofa superhero was a dark
anti-hero, but he truly was justa good, helpful fella.
Another very early example of asuperhero is the Scarlet
Pimpernel.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I'm sorry.
What is a Pimpernel?
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Pimpernel is a plant.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Here's a picture.
Okay, so he's like the redficus.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's right, very good example.
It premiered on October 15th1903.
The Scarlet Pimpernel wasoriginally created as a play
co-written by Baroness AmuskaOrksy and her husband Montague
Barstow, which premiered inLondon in 1903.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Wait, she was a baroness and her husband had no
title.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Maybe he was a baroness and her husband had no
title.
Maybe he was a baron, I don'tknow.
Maybe I got lazy.
Due to the play's success,orksy adapted it into a novel
which was published in 1905.
So the content of the ScarletPimpernel tells the story of a
character named Sir PercyBlankney, who is this very
highfalutin guy from Englishsociety, and he leads this
(48:22):
double life as the ScarletPimpernel, which is similar to,
again, batman and many othersuperheroes.
This is set during the FrenchRevolution's reign of terror,
okay, and so he sort of becomesthis master of disguise and a
hero right in his own own right,a vigilante like we talked
(48:43):
about, and he rescues frencharistocrats from the guillotine
and he gets them back to safety.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
So he's maybe a little bit um what a fucking
yeah against the people yeah,well, what is even the word for
that?
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Scab.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Scab, yeah, fucking scab, fuck that guy.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Fascinating how the tables have turned right.
That seems so outside of thegenre now.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, you rarely encounter a superhero.
That's just like.
You know what I'm just here for?
Speaker 1 (49:17):
the 1%.
By the 1930s, superheroesstarted to emerge that I would
say bear a closer resemblance tohow we think of them today.
Doc Savage, a folk hero with nosupernatural powers, again a la
Batman, started to grace thepages of comic books in 1933.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
What did Doc Savage do?
He said he had no superpowers.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
So his real name I find this hilarious was Clark
Savage Jr.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
You would think like Doc Savage is like oh, he's
nicknamed that because he's sosavage.
But it's just that his lastname was Savage and he's a
junior.
He's a scientist, a detective,a warrior.
He likes to write wrongs thisis a quote writes wrongs and
punishes evildoers.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
He likes to write.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
He likes to write poetry.
No, he's just like a hero typewho Big into fanfic.
If you see a picture of himhe's a little bit like maybe an
Indiana Jones or James Bond type.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
He's a little sexy.
The Shadow was created in 1931,so two years before Doc Savage.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Oh sure, the Shadow.
Yeah, oh, you're familiar.
I mean the Shadow, that's avery famous hero.
So besides having like anamazing comic run, the Shadow
was redone as a movie in the 90s, I believe.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Well, even before that, it actually originated as
a mysterious radio host.
The Shadow evolved into a comicbook character eventually, but
in 1930, the character debutedas the host of an actual radio
show.
Oh sure, because they alwayssigned off like only the Shadow
knows, and some episodesincluded narration from Orson
Welles.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Gotcha so fun.
Shadow slash, batman adjacenttrivia fact.
So fast forward to 2000.
Whatever, sam Raimi was lookingto make a superhero movie
before Spider-Man.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Because this was before he got the license to
Spider-Man and he was trying tomake a Batman movie and he
couldn't get the license toBatman.
So instead he tried to get thelicense to the Shadow, and
similarly he could not get thelicense to the shadow and
similarly he could not get thelicense to that.
So he instead had this wholescript already written and then
(51:28):
he just kind of redid it andmade up his own superhero called
dark man, who is anamalgamation of batman and the
shadow, and so you can watchdark man.
It's a very fun superhero movie, kind of like an antihero.
Stars Liam Neeson, of allpeople, this guy who's like
covered in bandages and fightscrime.
(51:48):
But yeah, it's a very weirdkind of dystopian world.
It's kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
I love that.
I love when you know so muchabout a thing that I just
casually mentioned.
Superman, often cited as thefirst true superhero, was
released in 1938, the HumanTorch in 1939, and Namor the
Submariner in 1939 as well.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
I always pronounce it Submariner and I'm 90% sure
it's pronounced Submariner.
However, I said that word infront of your father and he said
Submariner.
He said it's pronouncedSubmariner, However, I said that
word in front of your father.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
And he said Submariner.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
He said it is not Submariner, because that is a
below average Mariner.
It is pronounced Submariner andI said okay.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
We'll have to take his word for it.
He would know.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
He would.
Yeah, Namor is very cool.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
He was Marvel's answer to aquaman well, no, he
came out in 1939 what he cameout before aquaman yeah, he came
out the same year as superman Ican't believe that namor came
out before aquaman, who?
Came out in 1941.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
That's nuts.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yep, the more you know.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Huh, namor is kind of cool.
He is definitely a slept onhero.
He's in most comics thatinvolve the Justice League Sorry
, that involve, like, the, thepantheon of DC heroes or of
Marvel heroes.
Excuse me, because he has likesuch a big place of, like you
know, being Lord of the Seas andeverything.
(53:22):
He's just Marvel's version ofAquaman, but he came first.
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
It's more accurate to say that Aquaman is DC's
version of Namor.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yes, yes sure.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
In 1940, the two first female superheroes that I
could find.
If I'm wrong, that's fine, youcan tell me, but the first two
that I could locate were created.
One was Fantomah.
She was created by FletcherHanks, who is also known for
creating the character Stardust.
The super wizard Fantomah couldfly, transfigure objects into
(53:59):
other things, levitate objectsand, most powerfully, in my
opinion, force humans to mutateinto different forms.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
So she has polymorph.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
That's what I yes exactly, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
What is the delineation between wizard and
super wizard?
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Well, okay, so Stardust the super wizard is a
different character that Imentioned because I read that
and I was like what the fuck isthat he's a guy.
But I am actually.
I've prepared a littleexplainer on him.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
Oh, thank God.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Stardust, the Super Wizard, is a super smart
detective type who is incrediblystrong and good in combat, but
also in control of planetaryforces and outer space.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
In control of outer space.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
In control of space.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
He's a super wizard.
So, honestly, he's in hisweakest form on Earth.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Yeah, so he's something for us all to kind of
think about as we fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
So here he's like look, watch me do some card
tricks.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
Meanwhile outside he's like let me just move this
black hole around right, no,yeah, holy fuck, he can destroy
civilizations but it doesn'tstop there, alan, because the
other female character right, sobesides fantoma is theician
from Mars by Centaur Comics,actually predates Fantoma as the
(55:25):
first female superheroine bytwo months.
Magician from Mars, or Jane6EM35, has a human mother from
Earth and a father from Mars,where she was born.
Classic Jane developed specialpowers because she was exposed
to cathode rays as a child, notbecause of her alien father,
which I thought was interesting.
The lore is that she has theability to use 100% of her brain
(55:49):
, which allows her to usetelekinesis, wield superhuman
strength, nullify gravity,transform objects, cast
illusions and, you know, beimmortal.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
Oh, I love this trope , just the whole like oh yeah,
everyone uses 10% of their brain, except this one superhuman
that uses 100%.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
The magician from Mars?
Speaker 2 (56:10):
Yeah, so you know obviously, misnomer, we don't
actually use 10% of our brain.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
No.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
It's just typically 10% of your brain is active at
one point.
Like you know, different pointsof your brain do different
things, right?
I also love that she got herpowers from cathode rays.
You know where you too can beexposed to cathode rays?
Tell us Any non-flat screen TV.
So those are called CRTtelevisions.
The CRT stands for cathode raytube.
(56:38):
So if you just happen to sittoo close to a TV growing up,
apparently you too are a superwizard.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Oh no, that's a different character, but very
cool, I think, one of our mostfun topics in a long time, and I
like to say fantoma.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
I think it's fantoma.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Maybe, but I've recorded a whole social video
where I say fantoma.
So we're just really leaninginto it.
Anyway, we're gonna put a pinin the convo right here, because
we're gonna come back next timeand pick up.
There's still some to be saidabout the iconic superheroes,
right, we're gonna get into thegenesis of superman, we're gonna
get into spider-man, we'regonna get into batman and then
(57:16):
we're gonna get into the horrorof superheroes, which is what
we're leading up to.
Right.
That's the big climax, the big,what's it called?
It's like a big boss, I guess,a big supervillain, yeah, great,
anyway.
So I'm glad I'm the only onehere enjoying this, but I think
you're looking for archvillain.
Ah, archvillain, yes, so thatwill be the big sort of or, dare
(57:37):
I say, nemesis.
I have many of those too.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
Which is another Greek mythology illusion.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Nemesis.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah, tell us what you mean.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
Nemesis was the Greek goddess of indignation and
misdeeds.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I love her, all right .
Well, anyway, the point iswe're going to put a pin in this
right now.
Lots more to say we're going topick it up next time Really
deep diving into Superman, andpick it up next time really deep
diving into superman, and we'regonna go from there.
Thank you guys so much asalways for being here.
If you haven't checked out areally fun little short audio
drama from last episode, pleasedo.
It was really really fun to puttogether and I hope you guys
(58:13):
enjoyed it as an official spookykickoff to summer and yeah,
until then, please read allcomics, um, especially the
spooky ones.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I have done a deep dive into everything involved,
anything horror comic relatedand while I am by no means an
expert on the subject, I've atleast read the ones that I
thought sounded very fun.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
There you go, and I have had such a blast.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
It's probably one of the most slept on genres that I
would highly recommend foranybody who just enjoys spooky
things and also just like reallycool storytelling.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
Well, if someone's going to go away and read one
superhero horror comic, what doyou suggest?
One Ask to be one.
Speaker 2 (59:03):
If I have to pick just one, I'm going to go with
my absolute favorite, whichwould be the Immortal Hulk.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I thought you were going to say Spawn.
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Nope, spawn is great.
Spawn is absolutely wonderful,but it's far more of a time
commitment and there's a lot ofhills and valleys along the
journey.
Sure you know, not all of thecontent is equally amazing.
I'm going to say Cloak andDagger Interesting.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Which is my favorite comic book run of all time.
Speaker 2 (59:34):
Cloak and Dagger is a lot of fun.
I have the original four booksImmortal Hulk not to be confused
with the incredible hulk, it'svery different.
So immortal hulk is one is acomic run that actually wrapped
fairly recently, is only 50issues long the whole thing.
So it's a.
It's a start to finish yeah uh,and I really love being able to
(59:56):
read something to completionwell, since you gave two.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
Of course, we've alluded to this a few times, but
one that holds a very specialplace in my heart is a limited
run from Spider-Man calledSpider-Man Reign, which is an
alternate universe version ofSpider-Man, and it's much, much
darker than I think theSpider-Man that most people are
aware of, but we will get tothat more in the upcoming
episode of this series.
If you're going to go and kindof check some things out, those
(01:00:27):
are our suggestions, as always.
Thank you all so much for beinghere, stay super, stay safe and
stay spooky.
We'll talk to you soon.
Bye.
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