December 2, 2025 • 39 mins
Abby and Alex pick up where they left off last week, and talk through The Wiz and Wicked, in all of it's forms.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Lunatics Radio HourPodcast.
My name is Abby Branker, and Iam sitting here with my friend
Alex Goldman.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hello, hello.
SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
And today we are continuing our conversation from
last week all about the darklore and history of the Wizard
of Oz.
But today we've sort of made itup into the timeline to talk
about Wicked.
Woo! Woo-hoo, here we are.
And of course, we cite a lot ofsources.
They are all in last week'sepisode and all linked in the
(00:31):
description of that episode.
So if there's anything, youknow, that you want to look into
from anything that we broughtup, all of the source material
that I use during research isavailable in that episode.
And I would also encourage youto listen to that episode before
you listen to this one becausewe talk a lot about the
production of The Wizard of Ozfrom 1939, the books by L.
Frank Baum, and so much of kindof what led us to this moment.
(00:53):
So before we get into Wicked,which is, of course, there's so
much to say in the theatricaland cinema version.
First, we want to talk about TheWiz, which is another musical
version of The Wizard of Oz, andone that has, you know, as we've
been saying about all of these,but has a very specific message
in point.
There's a movie version of TheWiz, right, which was directed
(01:14):
by Sidney Lumay and came out in1978, which was based on the
1975 play of the same name.
The play was by William F.
Brown, and again is, you know,based on the original novel, but
of course has differences.
The film version stars DianaRoss, Michael Jackson, Nipsey
Russell, Ted Ross, among many,many others.
(01:36):
Richard Pryor is in there.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Oh yeah.
That is a that is a stackedcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
It's it's an amazing movie.
The Wiz musical keeps true tothe book in that there's three
witches.
It's not Glinda who comes andvisits them in Munchkin Land,
it's the Wicked Witch of or it'sthe Good Witch of the South.
SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
Who's out of Pearl in the in the Whiz musical.
And then there's the WickedWitch of the West, and then
Glinda is the Good Witch of theNorth or South.
I forget which direction she is.
But she comes in at the end toget her home.
SPEAKER_03 (02:12):
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
I think she's the witch good witch of the south.
Just like the book.
Like whatever the whatever sheis in the book.
But that movie, that movie'svery strange also.
It sort of like capturesactually return to Oz and the
Whiz kind of with the Wiz movie,I should clarify.
Yeah.
Capture like a uneasiness aboutlike when they first get to Oz.
(02:35):
It's it's a little strange.
But maybe like the biggestdifference is they put Dorothy
in New York City.
Yeah.
And so there's already sort ofan urban backdrop as far as that
goes.
And that sort of carries throughto the vision of Oz.
SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Full transparency.
I have never interacted with theWhiz.
But so Dorothy, like Oz is NewYork City, or she starts off in
New York City.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
She starts off in New York City and it's
Thanksgiving or Christmas.
It's one of the holidays, andand basically she's with her
family, but she's sort offeeling feeling a longing um of
not belonging with her family.
But no, no, like the biggest thebiggest difference is it's sort
of setting the Wizard of Ozwithin the African American
(03:24):
community.
Yeah.
It retells the story in such anamazing, thoughtful way.
Yeah.
I think is one of the firstrevisionist versions of the
Wizard of Oz that sort of makesthis huge impact.
Right.
There's a whole scene where theWicked Witch of the West uh
melts, they essentially free allof her minions who are working
(03:46):
working for her, and there's ahuge like musical number that is
just so joyful.
Um and let me tell you, themusic of the whiz is is great.
A lot of toe tappers.
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
Yeah.
And so just so everyone canpicture, Diana Ross plays
Dorothy, Lena Horn plays Glindathe Good, Michael Jackson's the
Scarecrow.
Michael Jackson is thescarecrow.
Ted Ross is the lion, NipseyRussell is the tin man, and
Mabel King plays the WickedWitch of the West, who was named
Eveline, which is cute.
(04:19):
Because this is before Alphabet,right?
And uh Wiz uh Wicked.
So that was her name.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
Yeah, that was right.
That was her name.
Yeah, exactly.
So fun.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
So the movie was initially, it was very poorly
received.
It was did not get great press.
It critics didn't like it,audience didn't didn't like it.
It's since become a cultclassic, and I think it's you
know, as all of these kind ofdark fantasy retellings, it
found its niche, it found itspeople.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yeah, and and I think the stage show was a huge
success.
SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
That everyone thought, oh, they're just gonna
do that.
I mean, talk we're talking aboutlike people who are fans of the
musical and then people who makethe movie.
SPEAKER_03 (04:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Who sometimes aren't aligned.
Yes.
Um, this was a big swing for themovie, I think, which it uh they
they reset they reset some ofthe scenes and they um I think
they're they swap out a song ortwo, but um, it is very
different in tone from the whiz,the whiz stage production.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
Right.
And speaking of the stageproduction, in 2015, NBC
produced The Wiz Live, which wasa live like television stream of
the Wiz, in which Neo played theTin Man and Mary J.
Blige played Evelyn or theWicked Witch of the West.
Queen Latifah was the whiz.
And that I think is somethingthat's going to be top of my
(05:43):
list to watch after this.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Oh, please do.
It's wonderful.
We're talking about universalthemes.
Like The Wiz is the Wizard ofOz.
Just like Wicked, it's like anadded emotional depth.
Breath.
You've probably heard the bigsong from The Wiz, right?
Like when she sings home, wherelike it's called Home.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
I'm sure that I have.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
It is it's like this amazing iconic song.
And it it comes at the end.
It comes at the end of thestory.
So she's like saying goodbye toall the friends that she makes,
and she's about going home andabout Yeah, it's it's just
there's a lot more like depth toto like all the characters.
(06:23):
Well, let alone Diana Ross isfully like 25.
Yeah or like 30.
Right.
I mean, this is in the 70s,right?
She's like 30.
SPEAKER_02 (06:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ugh.
So fun.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
Yeah.
I would rec I'm I feel like youwould have a good time watching
the Wiz movie.
Great.
SPEAKER_02 (06:41):
I will.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
It's so strange, but like it is.
And Diana Ross is a littleannoying, but like she's just
like she cannot act at all.
Yeah.
And I find her singing annoying.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Like she's Oh, hot take.
SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
Like, she's not like a great singer.
Right.
Like, she's great at doing whatshe does.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:01):
She's a great performer.
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Yeah, and she kind of like does a little soft
thing.
Like when she's singing mu talkabout like learning how to sing
musical theater again.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Like it's a different thing.
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
You kind of have to wail in the whiz.
Like you have to be able to likereally frickin' sing your face
off.
And she like can't.
You know, like she's very shehas a nice voice.
SPEAKER_02 (07:21):
Yeah.
unknown (07:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
You're just like, oh, I wish someone was really
like singing this.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Like Jennifer Hudson.
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Yeah.
No, you're talking like QueenLatifah.
Right.
Mary J.
Blige.
Right.
You're like, those are peoplewho can like really give it to
us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Okay.
That's just how I feel.
SPEAKER_02 (07:39):
But so Alex, I think this will be a fun fact that
you'd be interested in.
Do you know where the whiz wasfilmed?
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
I don't.
SPEAKER_02 (07:46):
The Wiz was filmed in Astoria Studios.
In Queens, New York.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
I guess that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
And some um and like the New York State Pavilion,
which is from the World's Fairin Queens, but you know, they
used a bunch of different NewYork City, you know, areas for
like external stuff.
But yeah, it was filmed in um inAstoria Studios.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Yeah, it is a love letter to New York City after
you know, when when you take astep back and you look at where
everything is, it's pretty coolthat it's you know New York
City.
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
Yeah.
So Quincy Jones also worked onthis movie as sort of a musical,
you know, consultant and justmade sure he had eyes on things.
He later came out and said hedidn't at first didn't really
want to work on this, but he didit as a favor to the director
who was a friend.
SPEAKER_00 (08:35):
He's like, uh, don't tie me to this, please.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
But it was the first time he ever worked with Michael
Jackson, and then he would go onto produce three of his albums
later, including Thriller.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
Wow, cool.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
Speaking of horror and horrifying people.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
In 1995, Wicked, The Life and Times of the Wicked
Witch of the West, waspublished.
The novel was written by GregoryMaguire and famously tells the
story of the Wizard of Ozthrough the lens of Alphabet,
The Wicked Witch of the West.
Maguire originally intendedWicked to be an allegory and
political commentary, and boy isit.
The book explores themes offascism, racism, and propaganda.
(09:17):
And again, I think it's wetalked about this a little bit
last week, but I just feel likeit's incredibly poignant and
well-timed that these movies arecoming out now and there's this
new energy around Wicked when itfeels so blatantly similar.
You know, some of the the pointsand messages of the book feel so
relevant.
(09:38):
Relevant.
Yes, exactly.
Relevant to this moment.
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
I know it goes to show that even when he was
writing it in the 90s, it feltit must have felt pretty pretty
topical then.
Um and unfortunately, some ofthose themes are still prevalent
if if not even more so for us onour day-to-day.
So I mean, the fact that it'sstill relevant certainly feels
(10:03):
like it's hitting home.
SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
Yeah.
I mean, just to be incrediblyblatant about it, you have, you
know, in Wicked, you have a s aseparate group of beings, in
that case animals, that arebeing abducted and removed and
dissolved from society.
And again, it just feels likeincredibly relevant.
SPEAKER_00 (10:21):
Yeah, othered.
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
Othered, exactly.
Wicked also calls into questionhow we understand good and evil,
and to your point last week, themiddle ground between those two
things.
And that all of us can have manydifferent versions and many
different things to learn.
Personally, I think Wicked is abrilliant work of fiction.
It takes a story that so manypeople know and love and totally
(10:42):
flips it on its head.
And by doing so, Maguireencourages us to take a deeper
look, to be weary of trustingauthority blindly and to not
take things at face value.
I actually think it's incredibleto take, like when like the
first time I experienced Wickedwhen I read the book, or when
you see the play for the firsttime, or even when people are,
(11:04):
you know, maybe about to see themovie for the or saw part one
and they're about to see parttwo.
I remember the feeling of beinglike, oh, for my whole life, and
not that it was a big part of mylife, but for my whole life, I
thought of this story this way.
And now I'm thinking of thestory in a different way, and
how powerful that felt to me atthe time, you know, the first
(11:24):
encounter you had with somethingthat like flipped this story
that you know and love so wellon its head, and it follows all
of the canon and it does sostill, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:33):
Oh, absolutely.
Do do you know what do you knowwhat's weird and something that
we talk about now is there arekids who grow up and the first
thing they learn is wicked.
Right.
And they have to go back andwatch the Wizard of Oz and sort
of they they're learning it inbackwards order.
(11:55):
And it doesn't have yeah, it hasa totally different it has a
totally different, right, likeuh impact on them.
Right.
But that that's something thatthat is that's pretty uh
interesting.
Yeah.
You know, because I had thesame, the same reaction as you,
right?
It's something that was so, youknow, pervasive in our lives.
It's of course we're gonna watchthe Wizard of Oz movie, and then
(12:17):
all of a sudden, boom, here'ssomething where you have to
think about it from a differentperspective, and it's sort of,
you know, like life-changing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
It it is.
It's really like it really is,and not to put too much, you
know, power onto a piece ofmedia or whatever, but it really
does, and I think it kind ofmakes you think, it made me
think at the time, and which isthe point, but like, oh, right,
like we shouldn't always assume,and I think that's kind of the
takeaway from Wicked at the end,which we'll talk about at the
(12:47):
end of this episode.
But you know, he he did the likeWicked, obviously, this is an
obvious statement, but it relieson the Wizard of Oz.
If the Wizard of Oz wasn't, ifit's if whatever the source
material was wasn't somethingthat was kind of universally
understood in a basic way, itthe Wicked doesn't make sense.
It you know, it relies on thepower of this thing to do it.
(13:08):
And yeah, I just think it's sothe impact of it is so much more
than most other works of fictionbecause of that.
And typically I think I'd I'dhave a reaction of like, oh,
this new version of this thing,like that's cheating, but it's
not.
It it's meant to flip your worldupside down.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
Yeah, right, and it gets deeper, it gets deeper than
even the source material.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Absolutely.
I've cried a lot at productionsof Wicked.
Yeah, right.
Especially the movie.
McGuire would go on to writethree more sequels to the Wicked
series, so there are four bookstotal: Son of a Witch in 2005, A
Lion Among Men in 2008, and Outof Oz in 2011.
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
And I I think there's now spin-off books from
some of those as well.
Oh wow.
Which I I can't even say whatthe titles are, but my mom reads
them.
Shout out mom.
She reads them.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
And you've read Son of a Witch?
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Yes.
Yep, I've read Son of a Witch.
Um, and uh it's it's difficult.
I loved Wicked.
SPEAKER_03 (14:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
And period.
Yep, yep.
I yeah, Son of a Witch was notlike the follow-up that I
necessarily wanted it to be.
There's some interesting points,but overall it doesn't have sort
of the driving force of of thefirst book.
SPEAKER_02 (14:49):
Yeah, fair.
The fact that Wicked inspiredthree sequels, a musical, and
long-standing Broadway run, moreon that in a second, and to hit
movies is only a testament tothe power of the original source
material and McGuire's cleverreimagining.
And all of that, right, from 95.
The Wizard of Oz has beentransformed into something
incredible so many times.
(15:10):
It's such a rare thing for onebook, right, from 1900, to have
been reimagined so successfullyover and over again.
It's like all of these peoplewere able to find lightning in a
bottle for this one story,right?
And I think part of that, thisis just me rambling, but like
part of that is that the storyis universally true.
(15:32):
Like the the core tenets of alot of this feels relevant.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
It's right, it's timeless.
It is, it, it's true, it's gonnabe true even in a hundred years.
It'll it'll probably still berelevant.
Yeah, right.
It's it's it is justfundamental.
It's a fundamental story.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
It's a human story, yeah.
Wicked the musical opened onBroadway on October 30th, 2003.
So eight years after the novelcame out.
The book was by Winnie Holtzman.
Music and lyrics were written bySteven Schwartz.
The musical is based on, ofcourse, the book by McGuire, but
it differs from the sourcematerial in major ways.
Steven Schwartz specificallywanted a warmer version of the
(16:13):
story than the novel.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
He famously hadn't finished reading the book before
he started writing the music.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
That's funny.
Steven Schwartz is quite a bigname in theater.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
What are some of the other things that we might know
him from?
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Godspell Pippin.
He writes the lyrics forPocahontas, Hunchback of Notre
Dame.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Oh, a Disney guy.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Um, yeah.
Him and Alan Mencken worktogether on some of these on
some of these the Disneycartoons.
Godspell, Pippin, and Wicked arehis big hits.
Yeah.
But then also like there'sChildren of Eden, Baker's Wife,
you know, there's deeper cuts.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
Adina Menzel and Kristen Chenowith originated the
roles on Broadway.
Menzel won the Tony for Alphaba.
The stage effects to pull offAlphabet's levitation during
Defiant Gravity were aninnovation at the time.
Uh, you know, there's this sceneif you haven't seen the play,
where it's the end of Act One,which Alex has said many times
(17:18):
to me, and I believe, because Ibelieve anything he says, that
it's one of the best endings ofAct One on any musical stage.
And I'll tell you, I cry everytime, and so do the people
around me.
It makes it seem like I seeWicket a lot.
I've seen Wicket a few times.
I'm not going.
I'm not going every week.
But there's this scene whereAlphaba sort of raises from the
(17:39):
ground, and when she does thatas she's singing Defying
Gravity, her dress seems to andcape sort of seem to extend, and
she becomes like this floating,levitating, powerful and like
much larger, right?
And taking up much more spacethan she did, you know, for the
rest of the play, in which sheis a bit more awkward and humble
(18:01):
and whatever.
Meek, yeah.
Yes, meek, and suddenly shebecomes powerful.
It's very similar to the end ofum part one of the movie where
you know it's depicted in adifferent way, but it's the
sentiment is there where shesuddenly has shifted.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah, and they they give us the cherry picker moment
with her like her cape billowingdown and her like being straight
up and down instead of like I Ithink that's what's notable is
she's not like mounted on thebroom as she's flying away.
She is like in her glory, justlike up and down, vertical, you
(18:34):
know, like they give us a nod tothe play.
Yeah, yeah.
They gave us the image.
Like, we did need that.
That that's what's good aboutthe move.
I mean, I know we'll talk aboutthe movie in a second, but like
what's good about the movie isthey're obviously fans of the
show.
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
And they know that that is who is going to see a
movie musical but fans of theshow, yeah.
Right?
Like, and and hoping that whatthey fell in love with other
people who haven't gotten achance to see the show will.
Yeah.
That's what makes a good moviemusical.
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
So yeah, absolutely.
Alex and I actually this yearwere able to go backstage at
Wicked, and we saw kind ofthere's this piece of the floor
that comes up, and we saw kindof the device, I guess, that
Alphabet is strapped to whileshe's levitated.
And it's fascinating becauseit's not it's not that uh
(19:32):
sturdy.
I mean, there's a lot of of elmoving elements in Wicked that
actors are strapped to thingsand the bubble and all that
stuff, but this specific moment,it has to kind of be really slim
in terms of its footprint as adevice because it's like you
don't know that it's coming, andthey sneak it in and they have
to kind of have people sneak itin and away.
And I think what I heard wassomebody actually kind of stands
(19:55):
behind her on this very smallplatform and holds her in along
with like because there's justno room for any other like
physical device because it's aplot twist.
SPEAKER_00 (20:05):
Yeah, now like imagine then having to sing your
face off.
SPEAKER_03 (20:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Someone's holding him happening.
That yeah, it seems it seemschallenging.
SPEAKER_02 (20:17):
Yes, it does seem challenging.
But very, again, very uhsuccessful for the audience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
Yeah, very moving.
Impactful, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
Wicked became one of the highest earning shows on
Broadway.
There are several internationallong-running versions in
addition to New York City's.
The stage design is alsostunning.
I remember the first time I sawWicked, which was the first time
I saw the play many years ago.
Like when Glinda comes down inthe bubble like device, which uh
(20:46):
I don't know if it even is abubble, but it's like a metal
kind of bubble.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, it's it's like the clock uh pendulum.
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
Right, it's like a steampunk version of the whole
thing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
I know the whole thing is very steampunk, which
yeah, it was very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
And I was like, oh my god, like that was the first
time I'd seen a Broadway musicalwhere I was like really floored
by the set design.
Like it felt, you know, and thiswas again 10 years ago, or more
no more, this was like 15 yearsago.
It felt incredibly innovativeand impressive for the time.
I was like, whoa, this is thisis hardcore.
But the time dragon clock, whichis something they talk about in,
(21:23):
you know, the movie and in thebook, obviously as well, but in
the the theatrical version onBroadway, there's a little
dragon on top of, you know, thestage above the stage, and the
time dragon clock is kind ofaround the stage.
And I didn't realize this, youknow, I'm not watching the clock
during the play, but during theperformance, the clock shifts
(21:44):
kind of at different key momentsto kind of which again, if
you've seen the movie and notthe play, they talk about that
at the beginning, and that'skind of where it all ties in.
In 2024, our lives would changeforever.
No, in 2024 for good part one ofthe two-part film adaptation of
Wicked was released.
(22:05):
The film is based on themusical, less on the book by
McGuire.
It's pretty much, with someexceptions, but pretty much a
beat-for-beat remake of themusical.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
Some some enhanced moments.
Yes.
It's a little bit longer.
Filled out, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
Yeah, it's filled out, yeah.
Wicked was directed by John M.
Chu and stars Cynthia Arivo andAriana Grande as Alphaba and
Glinda.
Steven Schwartz added new songsto the cinematic version of the
story, which I I think are fun.
Cynthia Arrivo and Ariana Grandeinsisted on singing live on set
instead of lip syncing, which iskind of standard for when you're
(22:42):
filming a musical, both tobetter connect the emotion of
the scene, but also to honor theactors who played these roles
live on Broadway.
So I think this is like asimilar example to the, you
know, the Easter egg of Alphababeing vertical, you know, and
also like Christian Chenowithand Indina Menzel are in this
movie.
Like they they do a lot for theBroadway fans for sure.
(23:03):
Arivo even sang live when shedid her own stunts, which she
did mostly all of her ownstunts, and flew on wires across
the set, which meant she had toadjust how she breathed during
performances.
And of course, Ariana Grande,they've both I feel like I we
don't even need to talk aboutany of this because every, you
know, they're so they're outthere in all these interviews.
Everyone knows what's going on.
(23:24):
But Ariana Grande also had topretty dramatically like learn
how to sing differently for thisrole.
And oh yeah, right.
You know, they both did a lot oflike physical work on their
voices and with the Cynthia Revokind of being flung around set
and needing to breathe and singlive all at the same time is
like a pretty intensecombination of things.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
Yeah, it it totally pays off.
You can totally tell when you'rewatching a movie and they aren't
singing.
SPEAKER_03 (23:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
Right?
Like we all know what peoplelook like when they sing.
SPEAKER_03 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
And it's kind of obvious when someone is not
doing it.
It just it just looks betterwhen you're doing it.
So it's a smart move, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (24:02):
Yeah, I also think it's kind of similar, like
again, I think Wicked is verygood at invoking a emotional
response from audiences.
And I think part of that is, youknow, we we can roll our eyes a
bit at their off-screenfriendship, even though I don't.
I think it's beautiful, but somepeople do.
But I think you can tell theconnection that they have and
(24:23):
their chemistry during theirperformance, and you can tell,
to your point, doing somethinglike singing live on set, like
it adds so much emotion to thescenes, and and I think their
performances are more authenticfor it.
It reminds me a little bit of Ihave a friend who's a composer
who said, Okay, if you have ascore that's made with digital
(24:43):
instruments, like it could bereally, really good.
But if you have a score that'sperformed by an orchestra, even
if it's in a film, right?
Not live, but you have a scorethat was recorded by an
orchestra live, that will makeyou cry.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
And it's like that difference that might be
imperceptible to the, you know,an everyday person, but that's
where you find like pockets ofdeep emotion, especially when
you have such a good script andstory and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Well, it's genuine.
It's the same as we're talkingabout when we're talking about
the CGI versus like the the setsof magical effects, yeah.
It's uh it's genuine.
Yeah, there's something there'ssomething about it that feels a
little bit more real.
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
Yeah, you can connect to it a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:24):
Right, even though the story is about a wicked
witch and you know, a girl in abubble, like you could still
yeah, you could still find umyourself in it a little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
Yeah.
Are we and I didn't know thisactually, also had to wear
prosthetic fake ears on set tocover up her own piercings.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Right.
She has a lot of them.
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
So not only is she whipping around, right, singing
live and breathing, and she'swearing fake ears.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
That's so good.
Yeah that that might help youget into character.
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:20):
Just a little bit, just a little something.
I mean, uh let alone likegetting painted and all that.
Yeah.
But just a little something tomake your transformation
complete.
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
I I don't know, I'm sure this reached other people's
TikTok feeds last year, but MaryKate Morrissey, who was playing
Alphaba on Broadway at the timeof, you know, when Wicked the
movie came out, um, she floodedmy her content, flooded my inst
my TikTok feed.
And watching her, it wasfascinating because it was just
her talking to camera as shelike de-greened after every
(26:52):
show.
And watching her do that and theamount of work that goes into
it, like after she showered,right?
Like still getting green out ofevery little nook and cranny, as
and Cynthia Arrivo did that onset for however long, but these
Broadway performers do it everyday, multiple times a day for a
year.
It's a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Yeah, that's a lot.
That's a lot on your skin, too.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
Yeah.
Miracle people aren't breakingout all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Oh, here's a fun fact they discontinued the
color, the green color that theywere using for the show.
They have to get it speciallymade now because they're like,
we're not changing the color.
SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
By like the body paint company?
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Yeah, it's like they still like they still get it
made, but it stopped beingavailable readily for them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:39):
Wow, that's so funny.
Well, I guess they don't have toworry about a copycat then.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yeah, right, exactly.
A loadoff.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
I wonder how much, like what volume of green body
paint they're going through.
SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
Oh, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (27:52):
A lot.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
I mean, must be a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Must be a lot.
Director John Mchew workedreally hard to mimic the
theatricality as much aspossible on set.
There were thousands of lightingcues that were meant to mimic
lighting cues on a stage set.
And he also, and I think you cansee this in the sequence where
they sort of get to the EmeraldCity, but he really wanted to
build out like a setholistically and let the actors
(28:14):
move freely around it and followthem.
And, you know, trying, I thinkhe threaded the line very well
between filming a movie andletting the actors kind of
explore in a way that felt moresimilar to theater.
And and not explore, I suppose,but like move within the set,
right?
And um, I think he did thatreally well.
(28:35):
Like, I'm thinking about thatscene where Ariana Grande is
dancing down at the end ofPopular, the hallway, you know,
and how, and I think I saw aninterview where that was like
something they weren't quitesure how they were gonna stage
or block that moment.
And they're like, Well, we havethis hallway built out.
It's like they because they hadbuilt out these like sets in
their entirety.
They have them, yeah.
Even if they weren't planning touse them, and then she just like
(28:55):
danced down, and they're like,Oh, that's great.
So Wicked from 2024 became thehighest grossing film adaptation
of a musical ever.
It was nominated for 10 AcademyAwards, including Best Feature.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
What was interesting about the movie is they had
Cynthia nominated for BestActress with Ariana nominated as
best supporting actress.
But in the stage show, bothKristen and Idina were nominated
for Best Leading Actress.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
The film becomes about Alphaba at the end, but I
feel like the f for the vastmajority of it, it's very
equally shared between them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
I I think well, it's to make them a little more
competitive, right?
They're not competing againsteach other, perhaps.
But it was interesting that themusical firmly Well, I guess uh
Kristen had already won a TonyAward at the at the time as
well, and is certainly a drivingforce of I mean, like when she
(29:56):
joined the musical, Glinda'spart was a little bit smaller.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
What did she what what had she won before?
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Um she was in your good man Charlie Brown and she
won for Sally.
SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
Got it, got it.
Yeah.
I love her.
She's so clever.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Oh yeah, she's great.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Yeah.
And of course, Wicked for Good,part two, is now in theaters.
The second part was filmed alongwith the first at the same time
in England, so both parts werekind of filmed concurrently.
And I think what I've heard ininterviews is that both parts
were done and edited at the sametime.
Like before the first movie cameout, both were done with the
(30:31):
editing.
SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
Oh, they're like all set, ready to go.
SPEAKER_02 (30:33):
Just made us wait.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:35):
It'd be so curious from like a filmmaking
perspective, to like, did youunlock?
Like, did you after, you know,in June of this year, where you
were like, oh, actually, like Iwant to shift this.
SPEAKER_00 (30:46):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
I remember last year when this came out being like,
oh my god, we have to waitanother year.
And now it's here.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
Here we are.
Here we are.
I know, and now we can justwatch them together.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Yep, whenever we want.
I have to admit I've watchedWicked a lot this year.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Yeah, it's helped us get through the year.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
We needed it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
Yeah, we did need it.
We needed it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
In 1969, when Judy Garland was 47 years old, she
died from an accidental drugoverdose.
Garland was never able to shakethe addiction to pills that her
mother and Hollywood forced heron before the age of 10.
Garland was married five timesand had three children,
including Liza Minelli.
Like her mother, Manelli wouldgo on to become an iconic
(31:28):
performer in her own right.
And I've been listening to a lotof um cabaret.
SPEAKER_01 (31:32):
Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
Because after I wrote this sentence, I was like,
you know what?
I'm gonna learn more about LizaMinelli.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
So many actors across so many mediums have
brought characters written by L.
Frank Baum over 125 years ago tolife.
Oz in its many forms, from Whizand Wicked to Return to Oz, The
Wizard of Oz, even the silentversions, right, from 1910 and
1924, has transcended intosomething magical for generation
(32:00):
after generation.
Every generation has its ownversion of the Wizard of Oz.
It's one of the most enduringpieces of source material that I
can think of.
And to think it all started as achildren's book.
Looking at the dark history ofthe Wizard of Oz is a reflection
of the treatment of women andactors in the 1930s, and how
starkly different that is insome ways now, and how similar
(32:22):
it is in some other ways.
You know, there's regulations onsets, and we don't have
directors writing memos aboutthe weight of 13-year-olds, but
do we still have, you know,problematic issues about how we
handle women and actors and allkinds of people in these spaces?
Yes, absolutely.
Pay inequities and especiallywith first McGuire and then
(32:46):
choose versions of Wicked, thereis a really timely and important
message being told.
We are living in a very darktime in the United States and
across the world.
We are living under a governmentthat is hiding behind masks and
kidnapping people, straight fromtheir homes, their jobs, and
their cars.
As a reminder, Wicked wasoriginally written as a
political commentary, and Ithink the message, no matter the
(33:08):
genre of its delivery, ringsvery true today.
It's a time to stand up forwhat's right, a time to question
authority and leadership, a timeto speak up, to do whatever we
can to protect innocent peopleand human rights.
It doesn't matter that Wicked isa musical about a fantasy world,
or that The Wizard of Oz is awacky children's book from 1900.
It endures because it isrelevant, because there is
(33:30):
something for us to connect andto feel.
And that is the truth behind thedark history and lore of The
Wizard of Oz, one of the mosteverlasting and popular stories
for generations and generations.
Alex, thank you so much forcoming to talk about this.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
It was my pleasure to talk about this.
SPEAKER_02 (33:48):
I knew, and I knew I needed a different energy than
Alan for this topic, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (33:53):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
Sometimes you just gotta bring in the right, the
right audience for the topic.
Yeah, this was incredibly fun toresearch, and I would encourage
everybody just to call back tolast week to go back and watch
that scene in The Wizard of Ozwhere it turns from quote
unquote sepia to Technicolorbecause now you know that that
(34:16):
was just a girl, not JudyGarland, painted in a sepia
painted on dress.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
I can't wait to re-watch that when I get home.
SPEAKER_02 (34:24):
It's so cool.
Okay, Alex, I'm gonna put you onthe spot.
Of all of the versions, and youhave read more of the books, you
have watched The Wiz, you havewatched way more kind of Wizard
of Oz uh versions than I have.
What is the one version?
And you can't say wicked, likewhat is the the medium that I
mean you can say wicked, but Iwould ask you to say the the
(34:47):
theatrical show or the movie orthe book.
Like, what is the version ofthis story that if you had to
take one with you in life thatyou would take?
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
I know, it's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
Right.
It's it's a little difficult,like, not to pick the movie
mainly because that's my introto it.
Right.
But like if we're gonna talkabout like what what I myself
personally like what what I gofor, it's gotta be like the
(35:19):
stage show of Wicked.
SPEAKER_03 (35:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
It is, it is kind of like to your point, at the end
of Act One, Defying Gravity, theenergy of people just jumping up
being like, those people justdid that, yeah, right here,
yeah, in the same room as me.
SPEAKER_02 (35:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:39):
I don't know, the songs are bops, it's it's a
great time.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (35:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
That's my n answer, not answer.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Yeah, that's that's fair.
Yeah.
You gave me something for sure.
Yeah, I mean, I I'll say this.
When I am at almost any kind ofBroadway show, I find it hard
not to be moved to tears becauseyou're like, even if the show's,
you know, critically notamazing, I I get overcome by the
emotion of being like, I am inthe presence of these people who
(36:11):
are doing this thing, and it isso impressive, and there's so
much talent and work that goesinto it.
And so my first answer to thatquestion was going to be again,
just being really hard to peelmyself away from the original
movie.
SPEAKER_00 (36:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
But in this moment and time, wicked part one was so
uh transformative for me, I feellike.
Like, I think it did somethingto like, I just remember even
our friend Peter, our sweetfriend Peter, I remember him
saying, Wow, like my daughter isgonna get to grow up with this
movie.
Like even Peter, who's like, youknow, not particularly into like
(36:48):
musicals and whatever, was somoved by the movie.
I think it just had such animpact on me and so many people.
But yeah, there is something tobe to being in the presence of
yeah, of a performer, performersat that level.
SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
I know there there's something theatrical about The
Wizard of Oz that like begs youto see people like doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:10):
You know, there's some I love the books and I love
reading it, and and I really dofind reading is a passion of
mine.
SPEAKER_03 (37:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
But there's something about the story that
begs to see it acted.
SPEAKER_02 (37:23):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Well, as always, thank you somuch for being here.
It has been the delight of myweek to chat with you about
this.
And yeah, I know maybeespecially in today's part two
episode, it wasn't quite um ashorror-based, but listen, this
is our podcast.
We're gonna talk about what wewant to talk about.
I want to talk about Wicked andthe Witch of Oz.
SPEAKER_00 (37:44):
We had things to say, and we here's a platform
for us to say it.
SPEAKER_02 (37:48):
Yeah, plus listen, it's about a witch, you know, so
no matter what, we can't gowrong.
There's always a place forwitches on this podcast.
Always.
Always.
Actually, the first episode youwere ever in, do you remember?
It was an episode called Men CanBe Witches Too.
Oh, yeah.
And I don't I I beg of you notno one to go back and listen
(38:09):
because I'm sure it was horriblycringy at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
But wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:12):
You were on a witch episode.
SPEAKER_00 (38:14):
Oh, I'm honored to be on this one then as well.
SPEAKER_02 (38:16):
You are our outside counsel on witches.
Uh okay.
Thank you guys so much forlistening.
We will talk to you very soon.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
Bye.
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Lunatics Radio HourPodcast.
My name is Abby Branker, and Iam sitting here with my friend
Alex Goldman.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hello, hello.
SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
And today we are continuing our conversation from
last week all about the darklore and history of the Wizard
of Oz.
But today we've sort of made itup into the timeline to talk
about Wicked.
Woo! Woo-hoo, here we are.
And of course, we cite a lot ofsources.
They are all in last week'sepisode and all linked in the
(00:31):
description of that episode.
So if there's anything, youknow, that you want to look into
from anything that we broughtup, all of the source material
that I use during research isavailable in that episode.
And I would also encourage youto listen to that episode before
you listen to this one becausewe talk a lot about the
production of The Wizard of Ozfrom 1939, the books by L.
Frank Baum, and so much of kindof what led us to this moment.
(00:53):
So before we get into Wicked,which is, of course, there's so
much to say in the theatricaland cinema version.
First, we want to talk about TheWiz, which is another musical
version of The Wizard of Oz, andone that has, you know, as we've
been saying about all of these,but has a very specific message
in point.
There's a movie version of TheWiz, right, which was directed
(01:14):
by Sidney Lumay and came out in1978, which was based on the
1975 play of the same name.
The play was by William F.
Brown, and again is, you know,based on the original novel, but
of course has differences.
The film version stars DianaRoss, Michael Jackson, Nipsey
Russell, Ted Ross, among many,many others.
(01:36):
Richard Pryor is in there.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Oh yeah.
That is a that is a stackedcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
It's it's an amazing movie.
The Wiz musical keeps true tothe book in that there's three
witches.
It's not Glinda who comes andvisits them in Munchkin Land,
it's the Wicked Witch of or it'sthe Good Witch of the South.
SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
Who's out of Pearl in the in the Whiz musical.
And then there's the WickedWitch of the West, and then
Glinda is the Good Witch of theNorth or South.
I forget which direction she is.
But she comes in at the end toget her home.
SPEAKER_03 (02:12):
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
I think she's the witch good witch of the south.
Just like the book.
Like whatever the whatever sheis in the book.
But that movie, that movie'svery strange also.
It sort of like capturesactually return to Oz and the
Whiz kind of with the Wiz movie,I should clarify.
Yeah.
Capture like a uneasiness aboutlike when they first get to Oz.
(02:35):
It's it's a little strange.
But maybe like the biggestdifference is they put Dorothy
in New York City.
Yeah.
And so there's already sort ofan urban backdrop as far as that
goes.
And that sort of carries throughto the vision of Oz.
SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Full transparency.
I have never interacted with theWhiz.
But so Dorothy, like Oz is NewYork City, or she starts off in
New York City.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
She starts off in New York City and it's
Thanksgiving or Christmas.
It's one of the holidays, andand basically she's with her
family, but she's sort offeeling feeling a longing um of
not belonging with her family.
But no, no, like the biggest thebiggest difference is it's sort
of setting the Wizard of Ozwithin the African American
(03:24):
community.
Yeah.
It retells the story in such anamazing, thoughtful way.
Yeah.
I think is one of the firstrevisionist versions of the
Wizard of Oz that sort of makesthis huge impact.
Right.
There's a whole scene where theWicked Witch of the West uh
melts, they essentially free allof her minions who are working
(03:46):
working for her, and there's ahuge like musical number that is
just so joyful.
Um and let me tell you, themusic of the whiz is is great.
A lot of toe tappers.
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
Yeah.
And so just so everyone canpicture, Diana Ross plays
Dorothy, Lena Horn plays Glindathe Good, Michael Jackson's the
Scarecrow.
Michael Jackson is thescarecrow.
Ted Ross is the lion, NipseyRussell is the tin man, and
Mabel King plays the WickedWitch of the West, who was named
Eveline, which is cute.
(04:19):
Because this is before Alphabet,right?
And uh Wiz uh Wicked.
So that was her name.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
Yeah, that was right.
That was her name.
Yeah, exactly.
So fun.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
So the movie was initially, it was very poorly
received.
It was did not get great press.
It critics didn't like it,audience didn't didn't like it.
It's since become a cultclassic, and I think it's you
know, as all of these kind ofdark fantasy retellings, it
found its niche, it found itspeople.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yeah, and and I think the stage show was a huge
success.
SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
That everyone thought, oh, they're just gonna
do that.
I mean, talk we're talking aboutlike people who are fans of the
musical and then people who makethe movie.
SPEAKER_03 (04:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Who sometimes aren't aligned.
Yes.
Um, this was a big swing for themovie, I think, which it uh they
they reset they reset some ofthe scenes and they um I think
they're they swap out a song ortwo, but um, it is very
different in tone from the whiz,the whiz stage production.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
Right.
And speaking of the stageproduction, in 2015, NBC
produced The Wiz Live, which wasa live like television stream of
the Wiz, in which Neo played theTin Man and Mary J.
Blige played Evelyn or theWicked Witch of the West.
Queen Latifah was the whiz.
And that I think is somethingthat's going to be top of my
(05:43):
list to watch after this.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Oh, please do.
It's wonderful.
We're talking about universalthemes.
Like The Wiz is the Wizard ofOz.
Just like Wicked, it's like anadded emotional depth.
Breath.
You've probably heard the bigsong from The Wiz, right?
Like when she sings home, wherelike it's called Home.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
I'm sure that I have.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
It is it's like this amazing iconic song.
And it it comes at the end.
It comes at the end of thestory.
So she's like saying goodbye toall the friends that she makes,
and she's about going home andabout Yeah, it's it's just
there's a lot more like depth toto like all the characters.
(06:23):
Well, let alone Diana Ross isfully like 25.
Yeah or like 30.
Right.
I mean, this is in the 70s,right?
She's like 30.
SPEAKER_02 (06:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ugh.
So fun.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
Yeah.
I would rec I'm I feel like youwould have a good time watching
the Wiz movie.
Great.
SPEAKER_02 (06:41):
I will.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
It's so strange, but like it is.
And Diana Ross is a littleannoying, but like she's just
like she cannot act at all.
Yeah.
And I find her singing annoying.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Like she's Oh, hot take.
SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
Like, she's not like a great singer.
Right.
Like, she's great at doing whatshe does.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:01):
She's a great performer.
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Yeah, and she kind of like does a little soft
thing.
Like when she's singing mu talkabout like learning how to sing
musical theater again.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Like it's a different thing.
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
You kind of have to wail in the whiz.
Like you have to be able to likereally frickin' sing your face
off.
And she like can't.
You know, like she's very shehas a nice voice.
SPEAKER_02 (07:21):
Yeah.
unknown (07:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
You're just like, oh, I wish someone was really
like singing this.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Like Jennifer Hudson.
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Yeah.
No, you're talking like QueenLatifah.
Right.
Mary J.
Blige.
Right.
You're like, those are peoplewho can like really give it to
us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Okay.
That's just how I feel.
SPEAKER_02 (07:39):
But so Alex, I think this will be a fun fact that
you'd be interested in.
Do you know where the whiz wasfilmed?
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
I don't.
SPEAKER_02 (07:46):
The Wiz was filmed in Astoria Studios.
In Queens, New York.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
I guess that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
And some um and like the New York State Pavilion,
which is from the World's Fairin Queens, but you know, they
used a bunch of different NewYork City, you know, areas for
like external stuff.
But yeah, it was filmed in um inAstoria Studios.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Yeah, it is a love letter to New York City after
you know, when when you take astep back and you look at where
everything is, it's pretty coolthat it's you know New York
City.
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
Yeah.
So Quincy Jones also worked onthis movie as sort of a musical,
you know, consultant and justmade sure he had eyes on things.
He later came out and said hedidn't at first didn't really
want to work on this, but he didit as a favor to the director
who was a friend.
SPEAKER_00 (08:35):
He's like, uh, don't tie me to this, please.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
But it was the first time he ever worked with Michael
Jackson, and then he would go onto produce three of his albums
later, including Thriller.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
Wow, cool.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
Speaking of horror and horrifying people.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
In 1995, Wicked, The Life and Times of the Wicked
Witch of the West, waspublished.
The novel was written by GregoryMaguire and famously tells the
story of the Wizard of Ozthrough the lens of Alphabet,
The Wicked Witch of the West.
Maguire originally intendedWicked to be an allegory and
political commentary, and boy isit.
The book explores themes offascism, racism, and propaganda.
(09:17):
And again, I think it's wetalked about this a little bit
last week, but I just feel likeit's incredibly poignant and
well-timed that these movies arecoming out now and there's this
new energy around Wicked when itfeels so blatantly similar.
You know, some of the the pointsand messages of the book feel so
relevant.
(09:38):
Relevant.
Yes, exactly.
Relevant to this moment.
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
I know it goes to show that even when he was
writing it in the 90s, it feltit must have felt pretty pretty
topical then.
Um and unfortunately, some ofthose themes are still prevalent
if if not even more so for us onour day-to-day.
So I mean, the fact that it'sstill relevant certainly feels
(10:03):
like it's hitting home.
SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
Yeah.
I mean, just to be incrediblyblatant about it, you have, you
know, in Wicked, you have a s aseparate group of beings, in
that case animals, that arebeing abducted and removed and
dissolved from society.
And again, it just feels likeincredibly relevant.
SPEAKER_00 (10:21):
Yeah, othered.
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
Othered, exactly.
Wicked also calls into questionhow we understand good and evil,
and to your point last week, themiddle ground between those two
things.
And that all of us can have manydifferent versions and many
different things to learn.
Personally, I think Wicked is abrilliant work of fiction.
It takes a story that so manypeople know and love and totally
(10:42):
flips it on its head.
And by doing so, Maguireencourages us to take a deeper
look, to be weary of trustingauthority blindly and to not
take things at face value.
I actually think it's incredibleto take, like when like the
first time I experienced Wickedwhen I read the book, or when
you see the play for the firsttime, or even when people are,
(11:04):
you know, maybe about to see themovie for the or saw part one
and they're about to see parttwo.
I remember the feeling of beinglike, oh, for my whole life, and
not that it was a big part of mylife, but for my whole life, I
thought of this story this way.
And now I'm thinking of thestory in a different way, and
how powerful that felt to me atthe time, you know, the first
(11:24):
encounter you had with somethingthat like flipped this story
that you know and love so wellon its head, and it follows all
of the canon and it does sostill, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:33):
Oh, absolutely.
Do do you know what do you knowwhat's weird and something that
we talk about now is there arekids who grow up and the first
thing they learn is wicked.
Right.
And they have to go back andwatch the Wizard of Oz and sort
of they they're learning it inbackwards order.
(11:55):
And it doesn't have yeah, it hasa totally different it has a
totally different, right, likeuh impact on them.
Right.
But that that's something thatthat is that's pretty uh
interesting.
Yeah.
You know, because I had thesame, the same reaction as you,
right?
It's something that was so, youknow, pervasive in our lives.
It's of course we're gonna watchthe Wizard of Oz movie, and then
(12:17):
all of a sudden, boom, here'ssomething where you have to
think about it from a differentperspective, and it's sort of,
you know, like life-changing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
It it is.
It's really like it really is,and not to put too much, you
know, power onto a piece ofmedia or whatever, but it really
does, and I think it kind ofmakes you think, it made me
think at the time, and which isthe point, but like, oh, right,
like we shouldn't always assume,and I think that's kind of the
takeaway from Wicked at the end,which we'll talk about at the
(12:47):
end of this episode.
But you know, he he did the likeWicked, obviously, this is an
obvious statement, but it relieson the Wizard of Oz.
If the Wizard of Oz wasn't, ifit's if whatever the source
material was wasn't somethingthat was kind of universally
understood in a basic way, itthe Wicked doesn't make sense.
It you know, it relies on thepower of this thing to do it.
(13:08):
And yeah, I just think it's sothe impact of it is so much more
than most other works of fictionbecause of that.
And typically I think I'd I'dhave a reaction of like, oh,
this new version of this thing,like that's cheating, but it's
not.
It it's meant to flip your worldupside down.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
Yeah, right, and it gets deeper, it gets deeper than
even the source material.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Absolutely.
I've cried a lot at productionsof Wicked.
Yeah, right.
Especially the movie.
McGuire would go on to writethree more sequels to the Wicked
series, so there are four bookstotal: Son of a Witch in 2005, A
Lion Among Men in 2008, and Outof Oz in 2011.
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
And I I think there's now spin-off books from
some of those as well.
Oh wow.
Which I I can't even say whatthe titles are, but my mom reads
them.
Shout out mom.
She reads them.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
And you've read Son of a Witch?
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Yes.
Yep, I've read Son of a Witch.
Um, and uh it's it's difficult.
I loved Wicked.
SPEAKER_03 (14:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
And period.
Yep, yep.
I yeah, Son of a Witch was notlike the follow-up that I
necessarily wanted it to be.
There's some interesting points,but overall it doesn't have sort
of the driving force of of thefirst book.
SPEAKER_02 (14:49):
Yeah, fair.
The fact that Wicked inspiredthree sequels, a musical, and
long-standing Broadway run, moreon that in a second, and to hit
movies is only a testament tothe power of the original source
material and McGuire's cleverreimagining.
And all of that, right, from 95.
The Wizard of Oz has beentransformed into something
incredible so many times.
(15:10):
It's such a rare thing for onebook, right, from 1900, to have
been reimagined so successfullyover and over again.
It's like all of these peoplewere able to find lightning in a
bottle for this one story,right?
And I think part of that, thisis just me rambling, but like
part of that is that the storyis universally true.
(15:32):
Like the the core tenets of alot of this feels relevant.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
It's right, it's timeless.
It is, it, it's true, it's gonnabe true even in a hundred years.
It'll it'll probably still berelevant.
Yeah, right.
It's it's it is justfundamental.
It's a fundamental story.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
It's a human story, yeah.
Wicked the musical opened onBroadway on October 30th, 2003.
So eight years after the novelcame out.
The book was by Winnie Holtzman.
Music and lyrics were written bySteven Schwartz.
The musical is based on, ofcourse, the book by McGuire, but
it differs from the sourcematerial in major ways.
Steven Schwartz specificallywanted a warmer version of the
(16:13):
story than the novel.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
He famously hadn't finished reading the book before
he started writing the music.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
That's funny.
Steven Schwartz is quite a bigname in theater.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
What are some of the other things that we might know
him from?
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Godspell Pippin.
He writes the lyrics forPocahontas, Hunchback of Notre
Dame.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Oh, a Disney guy.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Um, yeah.
Him and Alan Mencken worktogether on some of these on
some of these the Disneycartoons.
Godspell, Pippin, and Wicked arehis big hits.
Yeah.
But then also like there'sChildren of Eden, Baker's Wife,
you know, there's deeper cuts.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
Adina Menzel and Kristen Chenowith originated the
roles on Broadway.
Menzel won the Tony for Alphaba.
The stage effects to pull offAlphabet's levitation during
Defiant Gravity were aninnovation at the time.
Uh, you know, there's this sceneif you haven't seen the play,
where it's the end of Act One,which Alex has said many times
(17:18):
to me, and I believe, because Ibelieve anything he says, that
it's one of the best endings ofAct One on any musical stage.
And I'll tell you, I cry everytime, and so do the people
around me.
It makes it seem like I seeWicket a lot.
I've seen Wicket a few times.
I'm not going.
I'm not going every week.
But there's this scene whereAlphaba sort of raises from the
(17:39):
ground, and when she does thatas she's singing Defying
Gravity, her dress seems to andcape sort of seem to extend, and
she becomes like this floating,levitating, powerful and like
much larger, right?
And taking up much more spacethan she did, you know, for the
rest of the play, in which sheis a bit more awkward and humble
(18:01):
and whatever.
Meek, yeah.
Yes, meek, and suddenly shebecomes powerful.
It's very similar to the end ofum part one of the movie where
you know it's depicted in adifferent way, but it's the
sentiment is there where shesuddenly has shifted.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah, and they they give us the cherry picker moment
with her like her cape billowingdown and her like being straight
up and down instead of like I Ithink that's what's notable is
she's not like mounted on thebroom as she's flying away.
She is like in her glory, justlike up and down, vertical, you
(18:34):
know, like they give us a nod tothe play.
Yeah, yeah.
They gave us the image.
Like, we did need that.
That that's what's good aboutthe move.
I mean, I know we'll talk aboutthe movie in a second, but like
what's good about the movie isthey're obviously fans of the
show.
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
And they know that that is who is going to see a
movie musical but fans of theshow, yeah.
Right?
Like, and and hoping that whatthey fell in love with other
people who haven't gotten achance to see the show will.
Yeah.
That's what makes a good moviemusical.
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
So yeah, absolutely.
Alex and I actually this yearwere able to go backstage at
Wicked, and we saw kind ofthere's this piece of the floor
that comes up, and we saw kindof the device, I guess, that
Alphabet is strapped to whileshe's levitated.
And it's fascinating becauseit's not it's not that uh
(19:32):
sturdy.
I mean, there's a lot of of elmoving elements in Wicked that
actors are strapped to thingsand the bubble and all that
stuff, but this specific moment,it has to kind of be really slim
in terms of its footprint as adevice because it's like you
don't know that it's coming, andthey sneak it in and they have
to kind of have people sneak itin and away.
And I think what I heard wassomebody actually kind of stands
(19:55):
behind her on this very smallplatform and holds her in along
with like because there's justno room for any other like
physical device because it's aplot twist.
SPEAKER_00 (20:05):
Yeah, now like imagine then having to sing your
face off.
SPEAKER_03 (20:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Someone's holding him happening.
That yeah, it seems it seemschallenging.
SPEAKER_02 (20:17):
Yes, it does seem challenging.
But very, again, very uhsuccessful for the audience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
Yeah, very moving.
Impactful, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
Wicked became one of the highest earning shows on
Broadway.
There are several internationallong-running versions in
addition to New York City's.
The stage design is alsostunning.
I remember the first time I sawWicked, which was the first time
I saw the play many years ago.
Like when Glinda comes down inthe bubble like device, which uh
(20:46):
I don't know if it even is abubble, but it's like a metal
kind of bubble.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, it's it's like the clock uh pendulum.
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
Right, it's like a steampunk version of the whole
thing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
I know the whole thing is very steampunk, which
yeah, it was very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
And I was like, oh my god, like that was the first
time I'd seen a Broadway musicalwhere I was like really floored
by the set design.
Like it felt, you know, and thiswas again 10 years ago, or more
no more, this was like 15 yearsago.
It felt incredibly innovativeand impressive for the time.
I was like, whoa, this is thisis hardcore.
But the time dragon clock, whichis something they talk about in,
(21:23):
you know, the movie and in thebook, obviously as well, but in
the the theatrical version onBroadway, there's a little
dragon on top of, you know, thestage above the stage, and the
time dragon clock is kind ofaround the stage.
And I didn't realize this, youknow, I'm not watching the clock
during the play, but during theperformance, the clock shifts
(21:44):
kind of at different key momentsto kind of which again, if
you've seen the movie and notthe play, they talk about that
at the beginning, and that'skind of where it all ties in.
In 2024, our lives would changeforever.
No, in 2024 for good part one ofthe two-part film adaptation of
Wicked was released.
(22:05):
The film is based on themusical, less on the book by
McGuire.
It's pretty much, with someexceptions, but pretty much a
beat-for-beat remake of themusical.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
Some some enhanced moments.
Yes.
It's a little bit longer.
Filled out, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
Yeah, it's filled out, yeah.
Wicked was directed by John M.
Chu and stars Cynthia Arivo andAriana Grande as Alphaba and
Glinda.
Steven Schwartz added new songsto the cinematic version of the
story, which I I think are fun.
Cynthia Arrivo and Ariana Grandeinsisted on singing live on set
instead of lip syncing, which iskind of standard for when you're
(22:42):
filming a musical, both tobetter connect the emotion of
the scene, but also to honor theactors who played these roles
live on Broadway.
So I think this is like asimilar example to the, you
know, the Easter egg of Alphababeing vertical, you know, and
also like Christian Chenowithand Indina Menzel are in this
movie.
Like they they do a lot for theBroadway fans for sure.
(23:03):
Arivo even sang live when shedid her own stunts, which she
did mostly all of her ownstunts, and flew on wires across
the set, which meant she had toadjust how she breathed during
performances.
And of course, Ariana Grande,they've both I feel like I we
don't even need to talk aboutany of this because every, you
know, they're so they're outthere in all these interviews.
Everyone knows what's going on.
(23:24):
But Ariana Grande also had topretty dramatically like learn
how to sing differently for thisrole.
And oh yeah, right.
You know, they both did a lot oflike physical work on their
voices and with the Cynthia Revokind of being flung around set
and needing to breathe and singlive all at the same time is
like a pretty intensecombination of things.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
Yeah, it it totally pays off.
You can totally tell when you'rewatching a movie and they aren't
singing.
SPEAKER_03 (23:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
Right?
Like we all know what peoplelook like when they sing.
SPEAKER_03 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
And it's kind of obvious when someone is not
doing it.
It just it just looks betterwhen you're doing it.
So it's a smart move, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (24:02):
Yeah, I also think it's kind of similar, like
again, I think Wicked is verygood at invoking a emotional
response from audiences.
And I think part of that is, youknow, we we can roll our eyes a
bit at their off-screenfriendship, even though I don't.
I think it's beautiful, but somepeople do.
But I think you can tell theconnection that they have and
(24:23):
their chemistry during theirperformance, and you can tell,
to your point, doing somethinglike singing live on set, like
it adds so much emotion to thescenes, and and I think their
performances are more authenticfor it.
It reminds me a little bit of Ihave a friend who's a composer
who said, Okay, if you have ascore that's made with digital
(24:43):
instruments, like it could bereally, really good.
But if you have a score that'sperformed by an orchestra, even
if it's in a film, right?
Not live, but you have a scorethat was recorded by an
orchestra live, that will makeyou cry.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
And it's like that difference that might be
imperceptible to the, you know,an everyday person, but that's
where you find like pockets ofdeep emotion, especially when
you have such a good script andstory and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Well, it's genuine.
It's the same as we're talkingabout when we're talking about
the CGI versus like the the setsof magical effects, yeah.
It's uh it's genuine.
Yeah, there's something there'ssomething about it that feels a
little bit more real.
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
Yeah, you can connect to it a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:24):
Right, even though the story is about a wicked
witch and you know, a girl in abubble, like you could still
yeah, you could still find umyourself in it a little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
Yeah.
Are we and I didn't know thisactually, also had to wear
prosthetic fake ears on set tocover up her own piercings.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Right.
She has a lot of them.
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
So not only is she whipping around, right, singing
live and breathing, and she'swearing fake ears.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
That's so good.
Yeah that that might help youget into character.
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:20):
Just a little bit, just a little something.
I mean, uh let alone likegetting painted and all that.
Yeah.
But just a little something tomake your transformation
complete.
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
I I don't know, I'm sure this reached other people's
TikTok feeds last year, but MaryKate Morrissey, who was playing
Alphaba on Broadway at the timeof, you know, when Wicked the
movie came out, um, she floodedmy her content, flooded my inst
my TikTok feed.
And watching her, it wasfascinating because it was just
her talking to camera as shelike de-greened after every
(26:52):
show.
And watching her do that and theamount of work that goes into
it, like after she showered,right?
Like still getting green out ofevery little nook and cranny, as
and Cynthia Arrivo did that onset for however long, but these
Broadway performers do it everyday, multiple times a day for a
year.
It's a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Yeah, that's a lot.
That's a lot on your skin, too.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
Yeah.
Miracle people aren't breakingout all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Oh, here's a fun fact they discontinued the
color, the green color that theywere using for the show.
They have to get it speciallymade now because they're like,
we're not changing the color.
SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
By like the body paint company?
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Yeah, it's like they still like they still get it
made, but it stopped beingavailable readily for them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:39):
Wow, that's so funny.
Well, I guess they don't have toworry about a copycat then.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yeah, right, exactly.
A loadoff.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
I wonder how much, like what volume of green body
paint they're going through.
SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
Oh, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (27:52):
A lot.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
I mean, must be a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Must be a lot.
Director John Mchew workedreally hard to mimic the
theatricality as much aspossible on set.
There were thousands of lightingcues that were meant to mimic
lighting cues on a stage set.
And he also, and I think you cansee this in the sequence where
they sort of get to the EmeraldCity, but he really wanted to
build out like a setholistically and let the actors
(28:14):
move freely around it and followthem.
And, you know, trying, I thinkhe threaded the line very well
between filming a movie andletting the actors kind of
explore in a way that felt moresimilar to theater.
And and not explore, I suppose,but like move within the set,
right?
And um, I think he did thatreally well.
(28:35):
Like, I'm thinking about thatscene where Ariana Grande is
dancing down at the end ofPopular, the hallway, you know,
and how, and I think I saw aninterview where that was like
something they weren't quitesure how they were gonna stage
or block that moment.
And they're like, Well, we havethis hallway built out.
It's like they because they hadbuilt out these like sets in
their entirety.
They have them, yeah.
Even if they weren't planning touse them, and then she just like
(28:55):
danced down, and they're like,Oh, that's great.
So Wicked from 2024 became thehighest grossing film adaptation
of a musical ever.
It was nominated for 10 AcademyAwards, including Best Feature.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
What was interesting about the movie is they had
Cynthia nominated for BestActress with Ariana nominated as
best supporting actress.
But in the stage show, bothKristen and Idina were nominated
for Best Leading Actress.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
The film becomes about Alphaba at the end, but I
feel like the f for the vastmajority of it, it's very
equally shared between them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
I I think well, it's to make them a little more
competitive, right?
They're not competing againsteach other, perhaps.
But it was interesting that themusical firmly Well, I guess uh
Kristen had already won a TonyAward at the at the time as
well, and is certainly a drivingforce of I mean, like when she
(29:56):
joined the musical, Glinda'spart was a little bit smaller.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
What did she what what had she won before?
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Um she was in your good man Charlie Brown and she
won for Sally.
SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
Got it, got it.
Yeah.
I love her.
She's so clever.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Oh yeah, she's great.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Yeah.
And of course, Wicked for Good,part two, is now in theaters.
The second part was filmed alongwith the first at the same time
in England, so both parts werekind of filmed concurrently.
And I think what I've heard ininterviews is that both parts
were done and edited at the sametime.
Like before the first movie cameout, both were done with the
(30:31):
editing.
SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
Oh, they're like all set, ready to go.
SPEAKER_02 (30:33):
Just made us wait.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:35):
It'd be so curious from like a filmmaking
perspective, to like, did youunlock?
Like, did you after, you know,in June of this year, where you
were like, oh, actually, like Iwant to shift this.
SPEAKER_00 (30:46):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
I remember last year when this came out being like,
oh my god, we have to waitanother year.
And now it's here.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
Here we are.
Here we are.
I know, and now we can justwatch them together.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Yep, whenever we want.
I have to admit I've watchedWicked a lot this year.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Yeah, it's helped us get through the year.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
We needed it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
Yeah, we did need it.
We needed it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
In 1969, when Judy Garland was 47 years old, she
died from an accidental drugoverdose.
Garland was never able to shakethe addiction to pills that her
mother and Hollywood forced heron before the age of 10.
Garland was married five timesand had three children,
including Liza Minelli.
Like her mother, Manelli wouldgo on to become an iconic
(31:28):
performer in her own right.
And I've been listening to a lotof um cabaret.
SPEAKER_01 (31:32):
Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
Because after I wrote this sentence, I was like,
you know what?
I'm gonna learn more about LizaMinelli.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
So many actors across so many mediums have
brought characters written by L.
Frank Baum over 125 years ago tolife.
Oz in its many forms, from Whizand Wicked to Return to Oz, The
Wizard of Oz, even the silentversions, right, from 1910 and
1924, has transcended intosomething magical for generation
(32:00):
after generation.
Every generation has its ownversion of the Wizard of Oz.
It's one of the most enduringpieces of source material that I
can think of.
And to think it all started as achildren's book.
Looking at the dark history ofthe Wizard of Oz is a reflection
of the treatment of women andactors in the 1930s, and how
starkly different that is insome ways now, and how similar
(32:22):
it is in some other ways.
You know, there's regulations onsets, and we don't have
directors writing memos aboutthe weight of 13-year-olds, but
do we still have, you know,problematic issues about how we
handle women and actors and allkinds of people in these spaces?
Yes, absolutely.
Pay inequities and especiallywith first McGuire and then
(32:46):
choose versions of Wicked, thereis a really timely and important
message being told.
We are living in a very darktime in the United States and
across the world.
We are living under a governmentthat is hiding behind masks and
kidnapping people, straight fromtheir homes, their jobs, and
their cars.
As a reminder, Wicked wasoriginally written as a
political commentary, and Ithink the message, no matter the
(33:08):
genre of its delivery, ringsvery true today.
It's a time to stand up forwhat's right, a time to question
authority and leadership, a timeto speak up, to do whatever we
can to protect innocent peopleand human rights.
It doesn't matter that Wicked isa musical about a fantasy world,
or that The Wizard of Oz is awacky children's book from 1900.
It endures because it isrelevant, because there is
(33:30):
something for us to connect andto feel.
And that is the truth behind thedark history and lore of The
Wizard of Oz, one of the mosteverlasting and popular stories
for generations and generations.
Alex, thank you so much forcoming to talk about this.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
It was my pleasure to talk about this.
SPEAKER_02 (33:48):
I knew, and I knew I needed a different energy than
Alan for this topic, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (33:53):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
Sometimes you just gotta bring in the right, the
right audience for the topic.
Yeah, this was incredibly fun toresearch, and I would encourage
everybody just to call back tolast week to go back and watch
that scene in The Wizard of Ozwhere it turns from quote
unquote sepia to Technicolorbecause now you know that that
(34:16):
was just a girl, not JudyGarland, painted in a sepia
painted on dress.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
I can't wait to re-watch that when I get home.
SPEAKER_02 (34:24):
It's so cool.
Okay, Alex, I'm gonna put you onthe spot.
Of all of the versions, and youhave read more of the books, you
have watched The Wiz, you havewatched way more kind of Wizard
of Oz uh versions than I have.
What is the one version?
And you can't say wicked, likewhat is the the medium that I
mean you can say wicked, but Iwould ask you to say the the
(34:47):
theatrical show or the movie orthe book.
Like, what is the version ofthis story that if you had to
take one with you in life thatyou would take?
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
I know, it's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
Right.
It's it's a little difficult,like, not to pick the movie
mainly because that's my introto it.
Right.
But like if we're gonna talkabout like what what I myself
personally like what what I gofor, it's gotta be like the
(35:19):
stage show of Wicked.
SPEAKER_03 (35:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
It is, it is kind of like to your point, at the end
of Act One, Defying Gravity, theenergy of people just jumping up
being like, those people justdid that, yeah, right here,
yeah, in the same room as me.
SPEAKER_02 (35:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:39):
I don't know, the songs are bops, it's it's a
great time.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (35:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
That's my n answer, not answer.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Yeah, that's that's fair.
Yeah.
You gave me something for sure.
Yeah, I mean, I I'll say this.
When I am at almost any kind ofBroadway show, I find it hard
not to be moved to tears becauseyou're like, even if the show's,
you know, critically notamazing, I I get overcome by the
emotion of being like, I am inthe presence of these people who
(36:11):
are doing this thing, and it isso impressive, and there's so
much talent and work that goesinto it.
And so my first answer to thatquestion was going to be again,
just being really hard to peelmyself away from the original
movie.
SPEAKER_00 (36:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
But in this moment and time, wicked part one was so
uh transformative for me, I feellike.
Like, I think it did somethingto like, I just remember even
our friend Peter, our sweetfriend Peter, I remember him
saying, Wow, like my daughter isgonna get to grow up with this
movie.
Like even Peter, who's like, youknow, not particularly into like
(36:48):
musicals and whatever, was somoved by the movie.
I think it just had such animpact on me and so many people.
But yeah, there is something tobe to being in the presence of
yeah, of a performer, performersat that level.
SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
I know there there's something theatrical about The
Wizard of Oz that like begs youto see people like doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:10):
You know, there's some I love the books and I love
reading it, and and I really dofind reading is a passion of
mine.
SPEAKER_03 (37:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
But there's something about the story that
begs to see it acted.
SPEAKER_02 (37:23):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Well, as always, thank you somuch for being here.
It has been the delight of myweek to chat with you about
this.
And yeah, I know maybeespecially in today's part two
episode, it wasn't quite um ashorror-based, but listen, this
is our podcast.
We're gonna talk about what wewant to talk about.
I want to talk about Wicked andthe Witch of Oz.
SPEAKER_00 (37:44):
We had things to say, and we here's a platform
for us to say it.
SPEAKER_02 (37:48):
Yeah, plus listen, it's about a witch, you know, so
no matter what, we can't gowrong.
There's always a place forwitches on this podcast.
Always.
Always.
Actually, the first episode youwere ever in, do you remember?
It was an episode called Men CanBe Witches Too.
Oh, yeah.
And I don't I I beg of you notno one to go back and listen
(38:09):
because I'm sure it was horriblycringy at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
But wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:12):
You were on a witch episode.
SPEAKER_00 (38:14):
Oh, I'm honored to be on this one then as well.
SPEAKER_02 (38:16):
You are our outside counsel on witches.
Uh okay.
Thank you guys so much forlistening.
We will talk to you very soon.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
Bye.
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