April 13, 2024 • 54 mins
Have you ever found yourself questioning where the line is drawn in the sand when it comes to marital fidelity? Join us, as we navigate the emotionally charged waters of infidelity in marriage, offering a beacon of understanding in the storm of heartbreak and healing. We're discussing the various forms cheating can take, from the clear-cut physical affairs to the emotional entanglements and secretive online connections that test the boundaries of trust.
Betrayal in a marriage isn't a black and white scenario; it's a spectrum that can leave even the strongest bonds frayed. Throughout our conversation, we address the controversial 'work spouse' phenomenon, debate the reasons behind infidelity, and consider whether emotional or physical needs, when unmet, can ever justify stepping outside the relationship. We confront the treacherous path of vulnerability that can lead to inappropriate connections, emphasizing the power and necessity of open communication in steering clear of potential pitfalls.
The road to rebuilding trust is long and uncertain, but not without its signposts of hope. We explore the painstaking process of mending the fabric of a once-unblemished partnership and engage our listeners to share their voices in this ongoing dialogue on love, loss, and the possibility of a new dawn after the dark night of infidelity. Stay connected, join the conversation, and remember, every story of heartbreak and healing has its place on the Lunch with Sandy podcast.
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Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:01):
In a relationship, when is honesty not the best
policy?
How do you balance what youwant versus what you need, and
is there something you need tosay to your spouse but can't
find the right way to say it?
If so, then you're in the rightplace.
This is the Lunch with Sandypodcast.
With nearly 20 years ofmarriage under their belts,
Terrance and Sandy Jacksondiscuss a range of topics,
(00:23):
provide valuable insights onrelationships and talk about the
conversations married couplesneed to have.
So what does lunch have to dowith all of this?
Well, it's a metaphor for howthese conversations originally
started.
Speaking of conversations,let's get one going.
Here's your hosts, Terrance andSandy.
Terrance (00:43):
Welcome to another episode of the Lunch with Sandy
podcast, where we delve intovarious topics and offer
insights from the perspective ofa married couple.
I'm Terrence.
And I'm Sandy, and today is awildly impactful day because
we're going to be serving up adish called infidelity.
But before we dive into that,please remember to follow the
(01:06):
lunch with sandy podcast on yourfavorite podcasting app, and
you can also follow us along onall social media at lunch with
sandy sandy how you doing todaygood, I don't know if I'm gonna
really like this dish, thoughwell, listen, sometimes you have
to try things before you knowwhether or not you like them and
(01:29):
before I get too far in today,I gotta take a moment and wish a
very special happy birthday tomy youngest daughter, ayla, who
just turned 14 today.
She better be my daughter.
Sandy (01:45):
I think that's pretty obvious.
Terrance (01:47):
Yes, she is definitely , definitely a mini me.
But before we get into anything, I got a message for you.
Sandy (01:54):
Well, it's funny because I was talking to Danielle on our
run today about Ayla'spersonality and I said, oh yeah,
she's definitely like me inthat manner where she's cranky
in the morning if she's tired.
I said, but then again, she'salso cranky at night if she's
tired.
Terrance (02:12):
So I guess she's like both of us yeah, you interrupted
me when I said I had a messagefor you sorry, what was my
message?
Sandy (02:19):
stop eating all those hot dogs don't be jealous, cause I
am within five.
I ain't jealous Actually.
Well, I guess four to sixpounds of my pre-Ala weight.
Terrance (02:33):
Listen, that's all on you.
Look, I've told you before,whatever you know feelings or
whatever situations you gotgoing on with you, that's about
you, it ain't about me.
What I got to be jealous about,I'm good with me.
Sandy (02:48):
Well, it's funny because I know, you know, there's BC and
AD and I have a BA and AA,which is before AILA and after
AILA.
Terrance (02:59):
Bc is actually before Chipman.
Shout out to Barry Chipman, Iain't seen him in a minute.
Bc is before Chipman.
Shout out to Barry Chipman, Iain't seen him in a minute.
ABC's before Chipman.
So I mentioned a little earlierthat today we're going to be
discussing infidelity, and whenyou begin to speak about
infidelity or cheating, thereare many words that you can
actually associate with that,depending on whatever the
(03:21):
situation is.
Depending on whatever thesituation is, obviously there's
heartbreak, there's betrayal andsometimes even growth, which
surprises many people.
I can go on and on with thelist, but before, but rather
than do that, let's dive intothe dynamics of the act of
infidelity and its impact, and Ithink, before we can talk about
(03:46):
the impact, I think we have todefine the word infidelity, and
so I'm going to give you mydefinition.
And when I talk about mydefinition, I think there are
some actions that are debatableas to whether or not people
would say it's cheating or beingunfaithful, but clearly there
(04:09):
are some that the generalpopulation would definitely say,
ok, well, that's out of bounds,that's cheating.
So how do you define cheatingor infidelity?
Sandy (04:23):
Everything, everything.
Terrance (04:27):
Listen, don't have me cut you off what?
Sandy (04:31):
How are you going to cut me off?
Terrance (04:34):
Define cheating or infidelity.
Sandy (04:36):
Well, I don't know.
I feel like there's so manythings.
It's physical, it's emotional,it's on so many different levels
.
That why I said everything so,but I I feel like that's
something that you know, I'minterested to hear and talk
through well like.
(04:57):
What do you even define asphysical?
Is it just the sexual aspect ofit?
Would you consider kissing,cheating, like I'm interested
there are different types ofcategories.
Terrance (05:08):
When you start talking about, you know, cheating and
infidelity and I asked you foryour definition, which would be
your perception.
But I'm going to talk about thedifferent.
Let me get into those differenttypes and again, keep in mind
that you, you know everyone'sdifferent, so the definition is
going to be different.
I tried to get your definition,but we're going to, we're going
(05:30):
to skip past that.
We're not going to go thereright now because we're already
beyond that.
So you mentioned physical right, physical.
Someone physically cheats whenthey're engaging in sexual
activities with someone otherthan the person they're in
relationship.
Sandy (05:44):
That's pretty straightforward right, well, and
that's yes.
I would think that that's themost straightforward answer, but
then there's all the everyone'sdifferent of physical.
So right like I would stillconsider cheating anything that
is intimate but doesn't end upsexual, I guess.
(06:04):
So now you're getting ahead.
Terrance (06:06):
You're getting ahead.
This is, this is so.
This is why you should havedefined yours when I asked you,
because now I have a gooddefinition, Cause I that's why I
said everything.
Sandy (06:14):
I feel like there's so many things that I define as.
Terrance (06:20):
Yeah, well, right now we're talking about the physical
aspects, cause I'm goingthrough the actual types.
Sandy (06:24):
Yeah, well, right now we're talking about the physical
aspects, because I'm goingthrough the actual types.
Yeah, so what do you consideras physical?
Terrance (06:27):
I just explained to you what physical was.
Sandy (06:29):
So you're thinking just sexual, that's it.
Terrance (06:33):
That's yes.
Okay, I said sexual activities.
Now someone may define sexualactivities different.
Okay.
Or you can go deep into thatsituation, but again when you
start talking about okay, well,this person cheated on me.
Mm-hmm.
(06:53):
What does that mean?
There's a difference betweenthis person cheated on me and
this person kissed somebody.
Sandy (06:59):
No, I consider kissing cheating on me consider kissing
cheating on me.
Terrance (07:09):
So you're gonna put the same amount of weight with
someone kissing someone withsomeone actually having sex.
So you're saying that there'snot levels I guess, yeah, when
you put it that way, exactly,exactly.
So now is your opportunity.
Okay, I've given you.
I've given you the type I talkabout physical.
From the physical aspect, whatdo you define as actual cheating
(07:30):
?
And answer, or else I'm cuttingyou off.
Sandy (07:32):
Well, I agree, it's the sexual activity that's
definitely cheating.
Terrance (07:38):
But now see, when I said kissing, you said, oh,
that's cheating too.
Is kissing defined as a sexualactivity?
Sandy (07:47):
No.
Terrance (07:49):
I think, depending on who you ask, that might differ.
But you just said no.
But a minute ago you said ifsomeone kisses, that's cheating
on you.
Sandy (07:58):
Yeah, I still agree with that.
Terrance (08:04):
But to your point, I feel like there's different
levels of cheating, I guess youknow, so I'm not gonna jump
ahead, but right now you'repushing me to another part where
, uh, I would say someone wouldlose their mind asking you to
define one of these thingsbecause right now they probably
would you.
(08:24):
I can see how you would drivesomebody crazy.
I love you to death, but I cansee how you would drive somebody
crazy.
So if you say someonephysically cheating is the
someone.
Physically cheating involvesthe acts of sex.
Kissing is not a sexual action.
(08:45):
Yeah.
But kissing is cheating.
Sandy (08:50):
Yeah, I guess it comes down to almost like the why when
it comes down to the why.
Terrance (08:56):
So let me get into it.
Sandy (08:56):
I mean, like when it comes down to the why of kissing
, like are you kissing becauseyou're trying to be sexual?
Terrance (09:01):
Are you kissing because it's like emotional and
I feel either way it's stillcheating so let me get through
the actual different types,because you keep bringing up
another one.
You're crossing the line andI'm trying to go through the
progression here, uh, and Idon't think we're going to get
there, I don't think I have agood definition, yeah, so here's
what I'm going to do anything,and what I'm going to say is
(09:21):
this, because this is right nowyou're driving me mad, you're
driving me to cheat.
right now, what I'm going to sayis this Typically when you
start talking about, or when theconcept of cheating comes up,
there's three categories thatpeople tend to fall into.
There's that physical aspectright, and that involves
engaging in a sexual activity,right.
(09:41):
Then there's that emotionalaspect, where you begin to
develop a deep emotionalconnection with someone who
you're not in a relationshipwith.
And again, when I start talkingabout these definitions, these
are how I define them, I thinkfor each person is different,
but when I look at that, when Ilook at those three types,
(10:04):
that's how I actually definethat emotional um piece.
And it's usually thatemotionally usually doesn't
involve any physical intimacy.
so now, that might help in yourdefinition I feel like there's
even different layers ofemotional, but go on yes, let me
finish defining the threecategories, like I said, and
(10:25):
then you can actually speak,whatever it is you're speaking
and take us through this loopthat you've been trying to take
us through.
Let me get the categories out.
Go Lastly, online engaging inromantic or sexual interactions
with others online who are notyour partner.
(10:48):
Those are the three categories.
Now, what is it that you Well,what is it that would bring you
to say that someone cheated onyou?
And would they fall into any ofthose categories?
Or do you have a four, fifth orsix that's in your mind that no
one else knows about?
Sandy (11:10):
No, I think those are the main three.
However, I guess what I didn'tthink about until we started
conversating is that there isdifferent layers, and I guess
you know this is probably goingto lead to, you know, a
discussion further along.
But you know, depending onwhich layer it is, you know it
(11:34):
could result in how I behaveafterwards.
But you know, like yeah, Istill think if you kiss somebody
, you know and I'm not talkingjust like the Portuguese pecks
on the cheeks either, you knowlike, yeah, I still think if you
kiss somebody, you know, andI'm not talking just like the
Portuguese pecs on the cheekseither, you know what I mean.
Like that I would haveconsidered cheating.
Now, I would have consideredthat maybe a more basic form
(11:58):
versus one that I want to punchyou for.
Terrance (12:04):
So I said that everyone defines these things
differently.
Yeah.
And I think that what you'redoing and it's, it's okay.
I think that you're defining itone way, but you don't want to
admit it, because I asked you ifkissing was considered a sexual
act and you said no moreanything intimate versus it
doesn't have to necessarily.
(12:25):
So let me.
Let me ask you this you sayanything intimate versus it
doesn't have to necessarily besexual, Okay.
So let me ask you this you sayanything intimate.
Holding hands is intimate.
No, listen.
So here's the thing.
Everyone defines as different.
What I'm trying to get is I'mtrying to get you to define it
for yourself, Because one minuteyou have a definition.
Sandy (12:43):
You're making me rethink, because if you hold somebody
else's hand, I'm knocking youout, because you don't even hold
my hand.
Terrance (12:51):
Well, first off, let's get one thing clear we don't
promote or condone violence here.
We don't.
And second, you would never beable to knock me out and if you
tried, you'd probably wake up acouple days later realizing that
was a mistake.
So stop with the violence andstart to go through your
(13:12):
progression and think in yourmind how you would define this,
because you keep coming up withnew things and I'm just trying
to get what it is that is goingto.
Let me take a step back.
I'm going to say this I thinkyour definition.
You have to put more time intofinding this, because I think
(13:33):
your definition makes you alittle unrational.
And let me explain what I mean.
Ok.
I'll say one thing and you'llsay oh, if you do that, I'm
knocking you out.
I say another thing oh well,you're right, but I'm knocking
you out.
I say another thing oh well,you're right, but I'm still
knocking you out.
Sandy (13:50):
The short of it is I didn't say everything in the
beginning.
Yeah To my defense.
Terrance (13:56):
What you have to do is , in order for us to have a real
conversation about this, youactually have to think to
yourself and think okay, well, Ihave to define what this is,
Because when someone, if twopeople, aren't on the same page
right in regards to theirdefinitions, then when something
(14:17):
happens, you can't hold theother person accountable because
you didn't have a conversation.
And one person may think, hey,listen, holding hands is not a
big deal.
Yeah.
And where the other personthinks, oh, listen, holding
hands is not a big deal, yeah,and the other person thinks, oh,
you're holding somebody's hands, I'm going to take you out.
Yeah.
Sandy (14:32):
So, so yeah, no, I would not like it if you were holding
somebody else's hand.
Terrance (14:37):
No one's at All, right , listen, but I mean like no, I
know I'm trying to think ofthrough all the levels, like
basically being physical withsomeone.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So here's what I will say.
I think that there aredifferent levels.
Terrance (14:55):
When you start talking about intimacy, when you start
talking about infidelity and youstart talking about cheating.
I don't think you can cheat 50%, so this is how you got to
think about it.
Yeah, either you cheated or youdidn't.
You can't get into.
Oh, you did something withsomeone and that makes me very
upset.
That was over the line.
(15:16):
You can do things that are overthe line that aren't considered
cheating.
Ok.
You see what I'm saying, yeah,yeah.
I do I think we're going tomove on.
Sandy (15:28):
No, no, all right.
So, thinking back, anythingover the line would be, yes,
kissing and any type of sexualbehavior.
And then the emotional aspectof it right is also in my
definition cheating cheating,Although I feel like that even
(15:54):
has its own separate layersbecause, like you can have an
emotional relationship To me, Ithink there needs to be some
kind of underlying, almost likephysical or emotional, like want
and need to make it really anemotional infidelity.
And then the whole online pieceyeah, like I don't know, I
(16:18):
don't care if you watch stuff,but if you're sending things to
certain people and communicatingin a way to certain people.
That would be my onlinedefinition of cheating.
Terrance (16:30):
Yeah, I don't think from the emotional perspective.
I think that, if well, let merephrase this, let me take a
step back.
Have you ever heard the term?
And I know you use work wife?
But when you start talkingabout work husband and work wife
and things like that, why doyou think that is From an
(16:52):
emotional perspective?
You're saying you have someform of attachment to someone
that is on the level of a lifepartner.
Sandy (17:00):
So see, I don't define work wife and work husband that
way.
Work wife and work husband isjust the person that I at work,
that I talk to outside of workand that we have a friendly
relationship.
Terrance (17:11):
Why wouldn't that just be a friend?
I?
Sandy (17:13):
don't know.
Terrance (17:14):
Well see, now, here's the thing.
Sandy (17:15):
I guess they are on a slightly different level than
everybody else.
Terrance (17:20):
These are the people that I'm going to stay friends
with, whether or not we worktogether or not so don't you
think by using those titles,you're diminishing your
relationship with that personyou have a partnership with?
Sandy (17:32):
Could be.
Terrance (17:33):
I never thought about it that way, but I think it does
, and it doesn't bother mebecause I am very confident in
who I am like that you run therisk of having your actual
husband or your actual wifethink that they're not good
enough or they're not doingsomething right, because now, at
(17:55):
your job, you have you have aspouse, exactly.
Sandy (18:00):
Well, does it make a difference that I have a
same-sex spouse at work?
Terrance (18:06):
It may.
You may have some questionsthat you need to ask yourself,
that you're afraid to answer,but that's neither here nor
there.
All right, so let's get back ontopic.
Okay, infidelity is one ofthose things where it's not easy
for people to talk about, butit happens.
And then the question becomesis there ever a justification
(18:29):
for someone cheating?
Is there ever a justificationfor?
Someone cheating.
No, I like your one wordanswers.
Listen, people are always goingto try to.
Sandy (18:38):
I feel like people try to justify it in their mind.
Terrance (18:41):
Yes, people always try to justify their actions with
excuses or reasons.
The question that I'm asking isis there ever a true
justification for someonecheating?
And again, keep this in mindwe're not the end, all be all
when we start talking about this.
What we're talking about is youknow, from a general
(19:07):
perspective, we know that thishappens.
Is there anything that crossesyour mind where you say okay,
well, I understand that.
No, okay, how about you?
It's never happened to me.
Well, it's never happened to methat I know of, so it's hard to
answer that question.
It's very difficult to say hardno.
I think people's emotions getcaught up in it, and I know for
(19:28):
a fact your emotion gets caughtup in it because the way you're
answering directly you're notprocessing.
I'm a very emotional personYou're not thinking about not to
say that there is something outthere, but you're not thinking
about all the possibilities thatthey end up in a situation like
(19:53):
this, or when they end up beingunfaithful right, typically
they're Well, I can't even talkabout typically, when someone
doesn't feel that their needsare being met, that may be a
reason for them to step out.
(20:16):
When I talk about unmet needs,they could be emotional, they
could be physical and, dependingon what they are, they seek
validation outside of the actualrelationship.
So let me ask you this yeah.
I'm loving the quick one wordyes, no, if you weren't doing
(20:38):
your part from the physical oremotional perspective and you
were in a relationship, do youthink that would justify someone
stepping out for validationfrom someone else?
Someone stepping out forvalidation from someone else?
Sandy (20:51):
No, I still don't think it's a justifiable reason.
I understand that they feellike they're justified, but I
don't think it's still ajustifiable reason.
If you're feeling like yourneeds are not being met, then
you need to one have aconversation about it.
Terrance (21:11):
Let's say that conversation is had.
Sandy (21:12):
Okay, and if it's still not happening, then what's the
point of being in therelationship?
Terrance (21:21):
That is a very good answer.
I mean a very good question.
But let me ask you this let'ssay you're the one who's not
meeting the needs.
Let's say the conversation ishad.
Sandy (21:30):
Let's say you still refuse to meet those needs well
then I I still rather you leaveme before you cheat on me why
are you keeping that person in arelationship then, if you're
not going to actually meet the?
Terrance (21:44):
and listen, I don't condone.
I don't condone cheating.
What I'm trying to do is I'mtrying to get you to think about
this right, I get you.
Sandy (21:50):
But like what if I can't physically meet the needs?
Like you know what I mean.
Terrance (21:54):
Why?
Why wouldn't you be able tophysically meet the needs I?
Sandy (21:55):
don't know.
People have all kinds ofmedical issues Like what if it
can't be met?
Terrance (22:00):
What about the mental aspect?
Of it.
Sandy (22:11):
And yeah, but I mean back to the physical one.
So does that mean, just becauseI can't physically meet those
needs anymore, that it's okayfor you to just go do what you
want to do?
No, and if you feel like thatthat's what you need, then take
me out of the equation.
That's how I feel.
Or you know, let's go to thestore and find something that we
can both, you know, enjoytogether, right Before it gets
(22:31):
to that level.
Terrance (22:33):
You just make sure you do your part.
I've done a little research onthis, but another one that's
used is when someone feelsvulnerable, and let me explain
what I mean from the perspectiveof vulnerable.
It's not so much that, ooh,take advantage of me, it's more
of you know, during times ofduress or stress, or you know a
(22:59):
bad patch in a relationship, oryou're feeling lonely and you
have that work husband whosaddles up to the side of you to
offer you some support, Somework support, Some work support,
Some work support.
You see where those workhusbands and them work wives can
actually.
You know the thing about.
(23:20):
That is the one thing that andI don't want to go too off topic
with this the one thing thatyou want to keep in mind.
If someone classifies himselfas a work husband or work wife,
you never really know what'sgoing on in their actual head.
And I think what happenssometimes is people play these
games and it's all fun and gamesuntil the situation arises and
bam.
Sandy (23:41):
Yeah, you done cheated.
Terrance (23:43):
They found you in a vulnerable spot and you done
cheated.
Sandy (23:48):
So you mean like somebody trying to take advantage of me?
Terrance (23:51):
I'm not talking about taking advantage of you.
Sandy (23:53):
I'm talking about taking advantage of a situation.
Well, yeah, yeah, Like right.
I'm vulnerable and they'retaking advantage of the
situation.
Terrance (24:03):
Now there's some accountability on your part too,
because you cheated.
Sandy (24:06):
Well, yeah, because you always have the.
You always have the ability tosay no.
Yeah.
Like this is going too far.
Terrance (24:21):
Stop, I don't know, you know what I mean Before we
cross any lines.
I love that sound effect.
Stop, was that supposed to be atruck?
Sandy (24:34):
Yeah, I guess love that sound effect, stop was that
supposed to be a truck?
Terrance (24:36):
yeah, I guess you know , but uh, apparently I'm not
good at sound effects, no, andvoices, but.
Sandy (24:40):
But you know, and I, you know, and I admit it, I know
that I'm probably the one, thatis, one of the type of people
that are just like you know,nope, nope, nope, I don't I'm
gonna hit any gray area becauseI yeah, because I am very I'm
gonna hit you with, I'm gonnahit you with, uh, something
(25:01):
afterwards, but okay, right nowwe're just going through some of
these common, these commonexcuses that people use to say
okay, okay.
Terrance (25:10):
Well, this is why I cheated.
Another one of those is whensomeone is unsatisfied in the
relationship, whether it's froma sexual compatibility
perspective, from the frequencyof satisfaction.
It's just someone feelsunsatisfied and so they seek
(25:32):
satisfaction outside therelationship.
Sandy (25:33):
So it's kind of like number one unmet needs right.
I mean, it is To me it's likere-evaluate the relationship,
then but no, there is adifference there.
Terrance (25:44):
The unmet needs.
That's not necessarily physical.
It's physical or mental.
That's not necessarily physical.
It's physical or mentalUnsatisfied.
You know when I'm talking aboutnot being satisfied.
That is more on the sexual side.
Sandy (25:56):
Okay, yeah, so again I am sticking with number one, like
it's time to just reassess therelationship.
And if it's not working out,where are these numbers coming
from?
Announcer (26:06):
Where are these numbers coming from?
I don't got no numbers.
Terrance (26:10):
I got no numbers on here.
Sandy (26:11):
No, but that was the first one that we talked about.
That's why I said number one.
But anyhow, you know, again, Idon't want to put anybody down
for their own personal decisionsor their justification in their
own mind or their justificationin their own mind, but in that
(26:31):
situation it's like, well, youshould have re-evaluated the
relationship then, and if itmeans that you're not happy and
you don't want to be in therelationship, then don't be in
the relationship.
Terrance (26:45):
Very true.
Now keep this in mind, becauseyou know it.
It seems like you're coming atme.
These are excuses that peopleuse.
These aren't.
These aren't reasons, and youhave to refute the reasons.
These are excuses that peopleuse when they end up in that
situation, and one of thoseexcuses they may say reasons is
(27:05):
opportunity is opportunity, andwhat that simply means is they
find themselves in the situationwhere the opportunity to cheat
presents itself and they takeadvantage of it.
Sandy (27:17):
Is that like, especially when people have their list?
Terrance (27:23):
No, that's not when people have their list.
That's a situation where, let'ssay, you go to someone's
birthday party and somebody'sthrowing themselves all over you
well, let's, let's.
Either someone's throwingthemselves all over you or all
of a sudden, you know you turnaround and you go in the
(27:43):
refrigerator.
You're getting yourselfsomething to drink and when you
turn back around, everybody'sgone.
There's a naked girl standingthere.
Sandy (27:49):
Oh, that's a fun part, Opportunity.
Terrance (27:54):
There can be any situation where you know it's
not even a situation where youthought about it prior.
It's oh, there's someone comingon to me or there's a naked
person here.
Yeah, Opportunity, Knock, knock.
Sandy (28:08):
Knock knock.
Let me go take advantage ofthat opportunity.
Terrance (28:12):
And obviously, again, all of these things are excuses.
Sandy (28:17):
I feel like actually, honestly, a big excuse tends to
be like oh, I was inebriated.
Terrance (28:22):
Well, I mean listen, that's.
I feel like a big one, but Ithink that's the biggest cop-out
also, because if you know youwere inebriated, then you know
what you were doing.
Sandy (28:35):
Right.
Terrance (28:35):
Now let's say you black out and prior to you
blacking out, you're good, youain't doing nothing.
Sandy (28:44):
Yeah, I wouldn't consider that cheating.
You're blacked out and you'renot.
Terrance (28:50):
That's, I mean there's another word for that.
Sandy (28:52):
We're not going to get into that.
Yeah, let's not.
Terrance (28:54):
I think all of this when we start talking about all
of this.
It's really encapsulated by thislast excuse and some people
will call it a reason, but it'sreally an excuse and it all
comes down to lack of acommitment.
You know what I mean.
(29:16):
If one partner or both partnershave a low level of commitment
to each other, then that opensthe door for promiscuity.
I guess promiscuity is not theword Infidelity on both parts,
but when you start talking aboutsomeone being unfaithful, but
when you start talking aboutsomeone being unfaithful, there
(29:38):
is a level of lack of commitment, and it might not be a high
level, but from the perspectiveof what you're doing, as you're
stepping out on yourrelationship, I think there's an
issue with some commitmentthere.
So now I think there's one morereason, though.
What Go ahead?
There's?
Sandy (29:51):
a lot more reasons.
I would feel like retribution,like if you I don't know if that
you feel like your partnerreally upset you and you're
trying to one-up them yeah, so Icover that in the next.
Terrance (30:03):
We're gonna get to that because I cover that and I
cover that in in the nextsection.
But before I get to the nextsection, when you know, we
talked about I wanted to talkabout defining infidelity, which
we did, and then I want to talkabout.
Then we talked about whether ornot there was a justification.
Now I want to hit you with this.
You were so quick to say no, no, no, no, no.
(30:23):
Right Yep.
Let me ask you this question howmuch do you love me?
No, no, answer the question.
Answer the question.
Sandy (30:32):
You're one of my favorite people.
Terrance (30:34):
I'll take that as an answer, but that's not the
actual, real answer you know, Ilove you a lot.
What.
I'm saying is this what I'msaying is this.
Mm-hmm.
If you're put in a situationwhere someone makes a mistake
and you have to throw all theyears of good out, you're doing
it with no question.
Sandy (30:56):
Just even thinking about it makes my blood boil, to be
honest.
But listen honestly, early inour relationship I would have
said you're out Now.
Not that I'm trying to give youan excuse to go do anything.
Terrance (31:08):
I don't need no excuse Because.
Sandy (31:09):
I don't know how I would truly react.
Terrance (31:13):
And we can talk about that afterwards.
But here's the reason why I'mtruly react, and we can talk
about that afterwards, buthere's the reason why I'm saying
this.
What I'm saying is this If youwere to sit down and ask someone
these questions immediately,they're going to be like you and
say no, where, from myperspective, I have to think
about?
You can't just say, you justcan't answer Because you don't
(31:34):
have all the information andyou've got to think about okay,
well, what have you builttogether?
Yeah.
Because now, once you thinkabout that, you start to think
about what are you going to loseor what can you possibly lose.
Yeah.
Is it worth throwing all thatstuff away?
Possibly lose, yeah.
Is it worth throwing all?
Sandy (31:54):
that stuff away and see, I would automatically respond
with you already threw that awaythe moment you cheated.
Terrance (32:01):
I mean you can say that, but again, you can't speak
for someone else, no, I know.
And the question becomes okay,well, you say I threw that all
away.
Right, but you're doing thesame thing.
You didn't do the same thing.
But now what you're saying isnothing else matters.
You're going to say I'm goingto throw all that away, and then
(32:26):
who do you think is going to?
Actually, you don't thinkyou're going to suffer from that
of course, I think that's just,you know.
Sandy (32:36):
That's honestly what the next part of the topic is, which
is the fallout right.
Like I can't say for certainwhat I would do, that's what I'm
trying to get you to action islike that's it, it, I'm done,
it's over.
That is my knee jerk reaction.
Terrance (32:57):
Yes, so I get that.
That's your knee jerk reaction,but that's why we have these
conversations, because that'snot what I want.
What we're supposed to be doingis, and what we're doing here
is we're having thoughtprovoking conversations and I'm
dropping these pieces becausewhat has to happen is you have
to start thinking about.
Okay, if I say that's it, mylife changes.
Sandy (33:21):
Yeah.
Terrance (33:21):
Right, because now you got to think about it from the
perspective that how youinteract with family is going to
change.
Sandy (33:29):
Yeah, everything, like you said everything.
Terrance (33:31):
So now let's talk about yeah, see, this is why I
wanted you to hear that becausenow I want to talk about what
impact infidelity can actuallyhave on a relationship and those
people who actually involved,because you know, all actions
have consequences and whensomeone cheats, that has a huge
(33:55):
impact.
When someone cheats, that has ahuge impact.
When someone cheats the mostimmediately, right off the bat,
I say there's a loss there, andthat first loss is trust.
It immediately goes out thewindow and you know how I feel
(34:16):
Without trust.
What do you actually have,right?
Mm-hmm?
What are some of the otherthings?
You hit on this earlier.
What are some other things thatcheating can cause an impact on
you?
Sandy (34:35):
Oh well, first it's anger .
Oh my God, I'd be so angry andbe like ridiculous.
Terrance (34:41):
But that's not the one you said first, it was revenge,
revenge.
Sandy (34:44):
It was revenge, but that wouldn't be my first reaction,
the anger, and I would also puttogether with that, because once
the anger even starts tosubside, even a tiny bit, it'll
also then turn into resentment.
That's going to be like theinitial, like immediate response
(35:06):
, like devastation, anger,resentment.
Let me ask you this all thoseemotional feelings, let me ask
you this how those emotionalfeelings.
Terrance (35:14):
Let me ask you this how long do you hold on to that
for?
Sandy (35:17):
oh, I can hold on to anger for a long time.
Terrance (35:20):
Well, there's a reason why I'm asking you that right
because you know, you know whatI say all the time when you
allow people to invoke thosetypes of emotions in you.
For long periods of time,you're giving them power over
you, and that's not to say thatyou can't feel that way.
What I'm saying is, when youhold on to it, it's only going
to eat away at you.
Sandy (35:40):
No, do I know that's a healthy response?
Of course I know it's nothealthy.
Terrance (35:45):
Well, yeah, you said, do I know that's a healthy
response?
Sandy (35:49):
Yeah, well, I meant not healthy response, yeah, but I
know myself too and I know thatit would be what I would do.
I would be, yeah, I'd just beinsanely angry.
I can't even define how angry Iwould be, you'd be very, very
(36:11):
angry.
Let's get past those emotionsfor a second.
And then how do I react fromthat anger?
Well, that might be one of myreactions.
No, I mean, like you hurt me sobad, I'm gonna hurt you now,
but listen, so let me ask youthat I I hear what you're saying
(36:33):
, what.
Terrance (36:33):
What does that solve?
Sandy (36:34):
Nothing.
Terrance (36:35):
And how do you know that's going to actually make
the actual person upset, or howdo you know how that's going to
make them feel?
Yeah it might not, and thething about that is now.
So, right now, if that's yourreaction, what makes you better
than them?
And I'm not saying one person'sbetter than the other, but if
(36:58):
you say, well, you did it first,that still doesn't make it
right.
Sandy (37:01):
No, it doesn't make you any better.
Terrance (37:02):
Yeah.
Sandy (37:06):
So let's get you know.
Like I said, I recognize thatit's when you go through your
revenge, your revenge cheat.
Terrance (37:19):
Do you feel guilty afterwards?
I don't know.
So let me ask you this by youdoing to your partner what hurts
you so bad that doesn't have animpact on you, You're you're.
(37:41):
You're acting out of hurt,trying to hurt someone.
Sandy (37:44):
Yeah, no, of course, like you know, I know what you're,
where you're going, and I knowit's all wrong, but that is how
I'm trying.
Terrance (37:58):
So this is where this is.
I'm trying to help you growwithout having to go through
this, so you can actually grow.
Announcer (38:04):
You know, in the beginning I said I said you know
, sometimes growth comes out ofthis.
Sandy (38:08):
Yeah, you know, I, yeah, I would say, anger is not a good
quality to have.
Terrance (38:19):
Well, yeah, let me ask you this you can make some bad
decisions in anger.
Let me ask you this At anypoint, someone cheats on you.
At any point are youquestioning whether or not you
did something wrong, or are youworth?
Are you worth it?
Is it you?
Sandy (38:38):
well, right, I feel like that would be the very first
question in my mind why?
Terrance (38:42):
after you get out.
After you get out, like youknow, your very first question
is where's the knife?
Because I gotta cut you.
That's your first question yousaid we don't condone violence
no, I I definitely don't, butI'm looking at you right now.
You're fortunate that this isnot a video podcast yet, because
right now you might have peopledialing 911.
Sandy (39:03):
Why Is my anger showing?
Terrance (39:05):
You've been kicking your leg, that nervous twitch in
your leg the whole time we'vebeen having this conversation.
Sandy (39:10):
I told you, just even thinking about it just makes my
blood boil as it is.
But you know, I think this is ahealthy conversation to have.
Terrance (39:19):
Yeah it's healthy as long as you stop twitching, get
your hands out of your pocket.
I think that, from an impactperspective, people can start
questioning themselves andasking themselves OK well, did I
do something wrong?
Is there something wrong withme?
And I think it's important toknow that and to know that, ok
(39:40):
well, your actions haveconsequences.
And this is possibly one ofthose consequences, because when
you start to think from thatperspective, maybe when you're
out there and the opportunitypresents itself or you know
you're unsatisfied and you knowyou'll think about these things
and that may prevent you fromstepping out and preventing you
from getting stabbed in thethroat.
Sandy (40:05):
I'm curious, though, what you think about all of it, like
what, what's your immediatereaction be?
Would you say, off the bat is.
Terrance (40:14):
It won't be anger.
So if you haven't realized bynow, I'm a different breed.
Yeah.
The first question is why andhow we got here.
Yeah.
And depending on how honest,that answer is right.
Mm-hmm.
(40:38):
That would determine where wewould go from there.
And again, let's talk about,you know, can we recover, and
we'll save that for the can werecover perspective.
But before we get to that, whatI want to just say is I want to
hit on two things from animpact perspective that I think
everyone needs to understandwhen they cheat.
First off, we talked about lossof trust, but at the same time,
when you start talking aboutloss of trust, there's a loss of
(40:59):
respect, and it's not just foryour partner.
It really should be foryourself as well.
But the bigger part about allof this is the biggest impact is
it could be the demise of yourrelationship.
Now, that might be your goal tobegin with.
Right, it might be your goal tobegin with, but if it's not,
that's something that you haveto understand.
Now let's talk about can youactually recover?
(41:21):
And so your question to me iswhat my response would be.
I hear people all the time andthis is why I was saying to you
that they say if my partnercheats, that's it, it's over.
But again, when you start tothink about your relationship,
and if you have had up to thatpoint, and let's make the
(41:42):
assumption everything has beenrock solid.
Of course you'll have your upsand downs, but there's never
been a situation where this hashappened.
And it happens, bam, do youthrow it all out?
From my perspective, there hasto be a real, honest and open
(42:03):
conversation.
Because, if you don't have thathonest and open conversation,
you're never going to know howyou got to where you are, and
that honesty has to come fromboth sides.
At the same time, two of thebiggest things that people have
(42:27):
very they have a very shortamount of patience and
forgiveness.
Yeah, Because forgivenessdoesn't mean we're all good,
we're back together.
But again, you know how I feelwhen you hold something against
someone.
Mm-hmm.
You know they say I always sayforgive, don't forget.
But forgiveness is huge becauseif you've had this love for
(42:50):
this person, you've had it for areason.
Yeah.
Things change, but that doesn'tthrow away everything that
you've done or everything thatyou've been through or
everything that you've built upto that point.
So for me, it's really abouthaving that discussion and
seeing okay, well, how do we gethere now?
(43:11):
How we got there?
Your reason might be shit, youknow what I mean.
Yeah, but I have to hear thatfirst.
Sandy (43:22):
Yeah.
Terrance (43:22):
Before I can make a judgment.
I have to hear that, Because ifI don't hear that, then what do
we ever have?
Sandy (43:29):
So, to be honest, I would love to say that I feel like I
could be the bigger person and,depending on the situation, we
could potentially work throughit.
However, at the same time,that's where I question myself
Could I ever forgive, like Idon't know, like could I ever
(43:52):
get over it?
Terrance (43:53):
So now I should question how much do you really
love me?
Sandy (43:58):
And still a lot Like that's the problem, right?
So listen, let me give you some.
If I didn't love you and youcheated on me, then I probably
could forgive.
Terrance (44:08):
So let me ask you this question Now.
I'm going to put you in acatch-22 right now.
Sandy (44:13):
Okay, go for it.
Have you ever been cheated on?
Yeah?
Terrance (44:18):
Have you ever gotten back with a person who has
cheated on you?
Sandy (44:22):
No.
Terrance (44:22):
No.
No are you being honest rightnow?
I'm being honest okay, I won'tthrow no names out there.
I won't throw no names.
So let me ask you this, andthis is a whole no, I'm is
(44:43):
cheating the worst thing thatsomeone can do to you well, I
guess, besides, no, I guess not,no, it's not there's a lot of
physical, mental stuff that canhappen besides cheating.
Now.
Sandy (44:57):
Outside of cheating.
Terrance (44:58):
I should say.
So the point that I'm trying tomake is I know that there are
situations and I'm not talkingabout you where people put
themselves through, or putthrough hell, yeah, and they
return to hell yeah, and theyreturn to those situations and
they stay yeah and I guess whatI'm trying to figure out is and
(45:22):
again, I don't condone any ofthis I'm trying to figure out
how do you justify thatsituation as opposed to the
other situation?
right, you get what I'm saying.
Yeah, well, as opposed to theother situation.
You get what I'm saying.
Sandy (45:32):
Yeah, well, I feel, like the other situations, it could
be more about being scared.
Terrance (45:39):
No, do you know what I mean?
I get that and I want to takethat and put that to the side.
Well, that's what.
Sandy (45:44):
I was going to say, though it elicits different
responses.
Terrance (45:47):
Yeah.
Sandy (45:48):
You know what I mean.
Depending on the situation, itelicits different responses.
You know what I mean, dependingon the situation.
So it's like well, which ofyour own internal response is
where you can cut the line?
What can you forgive versuswhat can you not?
You know.
Terrance (46:05):
Yeah.
So here's what I'm going to do,because it doesn't seem that
you're there yet.
I'm going to give you somethings that I believe can help
recover.
That's not save, but helprecover from a situation.
The first thing, like I said,having that open and honest
discussion and conversation.
Sandy (46:24):
Which is funny because I ended up reading an article
today about Jay-Z cheating onBeyonce.
Terrance (46:30):
That was a while ago, it was.
Sandy (46:31):
It was like I don't know 2016.
Terrance (46:32):
You just not heard about that.
Sandy (46:34):
No but he, I guess, talked about the rationale on it
, and part of it was having todelve into himself and
understanding his own why, andthat sometimes people don't want
to go that deep withinthemselves to understand that so
(46:56):
regardless, you.
Terrance (46:57):
You know why?
Because, regardless of what,why you come up with yeah it's
just an excuse right you'rerationalizing something in your
mind for why you hurt someone,and being honest about it is
what you should be, butultimately you have to
understand I hurt you.
(47:17):
Yeah.
It was a mistake,ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.
So having that open and honestconversation is key, but what I
just said also is key you got totake responsibility for your
actions.
Before anyone can start to lookat a situation and say, okay, I
(47:40):
need to forgive this person,you have to first take
responsibility for your actions.
You can't expect someone toforgive you if you're not
willing to be accountable or tohold yourself accountable.
Sandy (47:55):
Yeah, and I honestly I do think the person who does
cheated, how they respond tothat person's hurt, I think
would have a big impact onwhether a couple could get
through it or not.
Yeah, so because if you're justlike yeah, I cheated, like and
you make no effort or try tounderstand that, they are going
(48:23):
to go through different stagesof anger, of resentment, of like
those things, in that you haveto put in probably a hundred
times more effort than you didin the beginning of your
relationship.
Terrance (48:38):
Yeah, and I'm gonna break it down for you.
I'll make it simple.
You got to be realistic.
Yeah.
It's going to be hard.
You have to understand thatthat person has to go through
all of those phases that youjust mentioned and they go
through them on their owntimeframe.
That's why I said patience andforgiveness and that patience is
(48:58):
on both sides.
But the bigger part is, youknow, the person who did the
deed has to understand look,things aren't going to go back
to the way they were like that.
They may never go back to theway they were like that.
They may never go back to theway they were.
But if this is something thatyou actually want, got to be
realistic.
It's going to be hard.
You got to put a lot of effortin and even with all that effort
(49:21):
, you might not get back toactually where you were.
Sandy (49:24):
Yeah, Because I was going to say I could even see it
being cyclical, Like right, Likeyou get to a point in your
relationship where everything isokay.
But it could also now becomelike a trigger for that person
and it could be even somethingso slight that is going to
trigger them and set them back.
Terrance (49:41):
Yeah, well, that's why you got to work on rebuilding
trust.
Right.
And that is going to take aconsistent effort.
And again you got to berealistic.
You might think that you'reputting enough effort into it,
but it's not based on whatyou're doing.
Sandy (49:59):
Right, you did the deed.
The other person might notthink.
Terrance (50:03):
And again, that's part of being realistic.
Part of being realistic isunderstanding that all that
effort might be for nothing.
Sandy (50:13):
Yeah.
Terrance (50:14):
But if you think that that person is worth it, you go
through that understanding thatthis is what you have to do.
Sandy (50:21):
And I would say that would be the only way I could
see coming out the end, out ofthe end, out of all of it.
Fine is the amount of effortthat would go into it.
It wouldn't be like, oh, I gaveyou 100%, like 200% of my
effort for two weeks.
You should have forgiven me now.
Yeah, and you know what elseLike you have to understand that
(50:43):
everything is going to be basedon.
Terrance (50:46):
It's not your time frame.
It's not yours, it's theirs.
Now what I will say is thisit's not your time frame, it's
not yours, it's theirs.
Now what I will say is thisit's not your time frame, but at
some point you're going to haveto make a decision.
And let me explain what I meanIf it's been 10 years, listen
you're going to have to make adecision.
Sandy (51:01):
Is it worth progressing and trying to rebuild this or,
to your point, is it the demiseof the relationship?
Terrance (51:07):
Yeah, there's two things that I want to say.
Okay about recovery beforebefore we wrap up, first, you
now have to make sure that youset clear boundaries and
expectations, because maybe itwas because you didn't have
those boundaries to begin withbut, now, after going through a
(51:30):
situation, got to set them to beclear and hold people to them.
Right, if you don't want arepeat of what happened, lay it
out.
This is how it's going to be,this is what it needs to be, and
then you can only do this ifboth parties are willing.
(51:50):
You have to work on rebuildingthat emotional connection you
got to work on restoring thatbond and that intimacy, because
if you can't do that, then youreally don't have a shot of
getting close to where you were.
Well, yep to where you were.
Sandy (52:09):
Well, yep, and I think the important part about that
one is being open, honest and,like you said, realistic, even
on the how did we get here, whathappened?
And I think both parties needto take a look at themselves.
It's not, mind you, the personwho cheated right, they were
(52:32):
wrong, they took it to the nextlevel, right.
But I think the person who wascheated on still has to look at
themselves when that partnermight say, well, I was not being
satisfied or certain needsweren't being met.
You know, and I tried having aconversation.
(52:55):
Maybe you didn't try having aconversation, I don't know, or
maybe they did.
Or maybe they did, maybe theydidn't.
That's what I mean.
Like you, you then have to takea look at yourself and be like
okay, how did I also let thisget to this point?
It could be a situation whereit was like it was nothing that
you could have done.
Terrance (53:11):
Well, I think it's important.
You said something veryimportant.
It's not how did I let thissituation happen, it's more, how
did I end up in this situation?
Yeah, Because you're notletting someone go step out, but
you may have some culpability,and I'm not saying that you do
and I.
Sandy (53:28):
You may have some culpability and I'm not saying
that you do and I want people tounderstand that In the
relationship you haveculpability, exactly.
Terrance (53:33):
In the position that you're actually in from the
perspective of okay, well,sometimes a rat is a rat, yeah,
right, right.
Sometimes people give you signs, you may ignore them.
Right, yeah, sometimes you maydo some things or be in
situations where there are signsand you ignore them.
Sandy (53:51):
Right, exactly.
Terrance (53:53):
Those are the things that you have to speak with
yourself and have questions with.
Ultimately, repairing arelationship after infidelity
requires a willingness toconfront difficult emotions,
communicate openly and worktogether towards building trust
and intimacy together towardsbuilding trust and intimacy.
While the process may bechallenging, it is possible for
(54:13):
couples to emerge stronger andmore resilient if both parties
are committed to the journey ofhealing and growth.
Thank you for joining us on theLunch with Sandy podcast.
Please be sure to follow us andleave feedback on your favorite
podcasting app as well associal media.
Until next time, stay well.
Announcer (54:32):
That's it for this week's episode of the Lunch with
Sandy podcast.
Thanks for listening.
We'd love to hear your feedbackand comments on Instagram,
TikTok and Twitter at Lunch withSandy, and be sure to follow us
on your favorite podcast app.
If you enjoyed the show, don'tforget to rate and review us.
Thanks again for listening tothe Lunch with Sandy podcast.
In a relationship, when is honesty not the best
policy?
How do you balance what youwant versus what you need, and
is there something you need tosay to your spouse but can't
find the right way to say it?
If so, then you're in the rightplace.
This is the Lunch with Sandypodcast.
With nearly 20 years ofmarriage under their belts,
Terrance and Sandy Jacksondiscuss a range of topics,
(00:23):
provide valuable insights onrelationships and talk about the
conversations married couplesneed to have.
So what does lunch have to dowith all of this?
Well, it's a metaphor for howthese conversations originally
started.
Speaking of conversations,let's get one going.
Here's your hosts, Terrance andSandy.
Terrance (00:43):
Welcome to another episode of the Lunch with Sandy
podcast, where we delve intovarious topics and offer
insights from the perspective ofa married couple.
I'm Terrence.
And I'm Sandy, and today is awildly impactful day because
we're going to be serving up adish called infidelity.
But before we dive into that,please remember to follow the
(01:06):
lunch with sandy podcast on yourfavorite podcasting app, and
you can also follow us along onall social media at lunch with
sandy sandy how you doing todaygood, I don't know if I'm gonna
really like this dish, thoughwell, listen, sometimes you have
to try things before you knowwhether or not you like them and
(01:29):
before I get too far in today,I gotta take a moment and wish a
very special happy birthday tomy youngest daughter, ayla, who
just turned 14 today.
She better be my daughter.
Sandy (01:45):
I think that's pretty obvious.
Terrance (01:47):
Yes, she is definitely , definitely a mini me.
But before we get into anything, I got a message for you.
Sandy (01:54):
Well, it's funny because I was talking to Danielle on our
run today about Ayla'spersonality and I said, oh yeah,
she's definitely like me inthat manner where she's cranky
in the morning if she's tired.
I said, but then again, she'salso cranky at night if she's
tired.
Terrance (02:12):
So I guess she's like both of us yeah, you interrupted
me when I said I had a messagefor you sorry, what was my
message?
Sandy (02:19):
stop eating all those hot dogs don't be jealous, cause I
am within five.
I ain't jealous Actually.
Well, I guess four to sixpounds of my pre-Ala weight.
Terrance (02:33):
Listen, that's all on you.
Look, I've told you before,whatever you know feelings or
whatever situations you gotgoing on with you, that's about
you, it ain't about me.
What I got to be jealous about,I'm good with me.
Sandy (02:48):
Well, it's funny because I know, you know, there's BC and
AD and I have a BA and AA,which is before AILA and after
AILA.
Terrance (02:59):
Bc is actually before Chipman.
Shout out to Barry Chipman, Iain't seen him in a minute.
Bc is before Chipman.
Shout out to Barry Chipman, Iain't seen him in a minute.
ABC's before Chipman.
So I mentioned a little earlierthat today we're going to be
discussing infidelity, and whenyou begin to speak about
infidelity or cheating, thereare many words that you can
actually associate with that,depending on whatever the
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situation is.
Depending on whatever thesituation is, obviously there's
heartbreak, there's betrayal andsometimes even growth, which
surprises many people.
I can go on and on with thelist, but before, but rather
than do that, let's dive intothe dynamics of the act of
infidelity and its impact, and Ithink, before we can talk about
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the impact, I think we have todefine the word infidelity, and
so I'm going to give you mydefinition.
And when I talk about mydefinition, I think there are
some actions that are debatableas to whether or not people
would say it's cheating or beingunfaithful, but clearly there
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are some that the generalpopulation would definitely say,
ok, well, that's out of bounds,that's cheating.
So how do you define cheatingor infidelity?
Sandy (04:23):
Everything, everything.
Terrance (04:27):
Listen, don't have me cut you off what?
Sandy (04:31):
How are you going to cut me off?
Terrance (04:34):
Define cheating or infidelity.
Sandy (04:36):
Well, I don't know.
I feel like there's so manythings.
It's physical, it's emotional,it's on so many different levels
.
That why I said everything so,but I I feel like that's
something that you know, I'minterested to hear and talk
through well like.
(04:57):
What do you even define asphysical?
Is it just the sexual aspect ofit?
Would you consider kissing,cheating, like I'm interested
there are different types ofcategories.
Terrance (05:08):
When you start talking about, you know, cheating and
infidelity and I asked you foryour definition, which would be
your perception.
But I'm going to talk about thedifferent.
Let me get into those differenttypes and again, keep in mind
that you, you know everyone'sdifferent, so the definition is
going to be different.
I tried to get your definition,but we're going to, we're going
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to skip past that.
We're not going to go thereright now because we're already
beyond that.
So you mentioned physical right, physical.
Someone physically cheats whenthey're engaging in sexual
activities with someone otherthan the person they're in
relationship.
Sandy (05:44):
That's pretty straightforward right, well, and
that's yes.
I would think that that's themost straightforward answer, but
then there's all the everyone'sdifferent of physical.
So right like I would stillconsider cheating anything that
is intimate but doesn't end upsexual, I guess.
(06:04):
So now you're getting ahead.
Terrance (06:06):
You're getting ahead.
This is, this is so.
This is why you should havedefined yours when I asked you,
because now I have a gooddefinition, Cause I that's why I
said everything.
Sandy (06:14):
I feel like there's so many things that I define as.
Terrance (06:20):
Yeah, well, right now we're talking about the physical
aspects, cause I'm goingthrough the actual types.
Sandy (06:24):
Yeah, well, right now we're talking about the physical
aspects, because I'm goingthrough the actual types.
Yeah, so what do you consideras physical?
Terrance (06:27):
I just explained to you what physical was.
Sandy (06:29):
So you're thinking just sexual, that's it.
Terrance (06:33):
That's yes.
Okay, I said sexual activities.
Now someone may define sexualactivities different.
Okay.
Or you can go deep into thatsituation, but again when you
start talking about okay, well,this person cheated on me.
Mm-hmm.
(06:53):
What does that mean?
There's a difference betweenthis person cheated on me and
this person kissed somebody.
Sandy (06:59):
No, I consider kissing cheating on me consider kissing
cheating on me.
Terrance (07:09):
So you're gonna put the same amount of weight with
someone kissing someone withsomeone actually having sex.
So you're saying that there'snot levels I guess, yeah, when
you put it that way, exactly,exactly.
So now is your opportunity.
Okay, I've given you.
I've given you the type I talkabout physical.
From the physical aspect, whatdo you define as actual cheating
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?
And answer, or else I'm cuttingyou off.
Sandy (07:32):
Well, I agree, it's the sexual activity that's
definitely cheating.
Terrance (07:38):
But now see, when I said kissing, you said, oh,
that's cheating too.
Is kissing defined as a sexualactivity?
Sandy (07:47):
No.
Terrance (07:49):
I think, depending on who you ask, that might differ.
But you just said no.
But a minute ago you said ifsomeone kisses, that's cheating
on you.
Sandy (07:58):
Yeah, I still agree with that.
Terrance (08:04):
But to your point, I feel like there's different
levels of cheating, I guess youknow, so I'm not gonna jump
ahead, but right now you'repushing me to another part where
, uh, I would say someone wouldlose their mind asking you to
define one of these thingsbecause right now they probably
would you.
(08:24):
I can see how you would drivesomebody crazy.
I love you to death, but I cansee how you would drive somebody
crazy.
So if you say someonephysically cheating is the
someone.
Physically cheating involvesthe acts of sex.
Kissing is not a sexual action.
(08:45):
Yeah.
But kissing is cheating.
Sandy (08:50):
Yeah, I guess it comes down to almost like the why when
it comes down to the why.
Terrance (08:56):
So let me get into it.
Sandy (08:56):
I mean, like when it comes down to the why of kissing
, like are you kissing becauseyou're trying to be sexual?
Terrance (09:01):
Are you kissing because it's like emotional and
I feel either way it's stillcheating so let me get through
the actual different types,because you keep bringing up
another one.
You're crossing the line andI'm trying to go through the
progression here, uh, and Idon't think we're going to get
there, I don't think I have agood definition, yeah, so here's
what I'm going to do anything,and what I'm going to say is
(09:21):
this, because this is right nowyou're driving me mad, you're
driving me to cheat.
right now, what I'm going to sayis this Typically when you
start talking about, or when theconcept of cheating comes up,
there's three categories thatpeople tend to fall into.
There's that physical aspectright, and that involves
engaging in a sexual activity,right.
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Then there's that emotionalaspect, where you begin to
develop a deep emotionalconnection with someone who
you're not in a relationshipwith.
And again, when I start talkingabout these definitions, these
are how I define them, I thinkfor each person is different,
but when I look at that, when Ilook at those three types,
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that's how I actually definethat emotional um piece.
And it's usually thatemotionally usually doesn't
involve any physical intimacy.
so now, that might help in yourdefinition I feel like there's
even different layers ofemotional, but go on yes, let me
finish defining the threecategories, like I said, and
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then you can actually speak,whatever it is you're speaking
and take us through this loopthat you've been trying to take
us through.
Let me get the categories out.
Go Lastly, online engaging inromantic or sexual interactions
with others online who are notyour partner.
(10:48):
Those are the three categories.
Now, what is it that you Well,what is it that would bring you
to say that someone cheated onyou?
And would they fall into any ofthose categories?
Or do you have a four, fifth orsix that's in your mind that no
one else knows about?
Sandy (11:10):
No, I think those are the main three.
However, I guess what I didn'tthink about until we started
conversating is that there isdifferent layers, and I guess
you know this is probably goingto lead to, you know, a
discussion further along.
But you know, depending onwhich layer it is, you know it
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could result in how I behaveafterwards.
But you know, like yeah, Istill think if you kiss somebody
, you know and I'm not talkingjust like the Portuguese pecks
on the cheeks either, you knowlike, yeah, I still think if you
kiss somebody, you know, andI'm not talking just like the
Portuguese pecs on the cheekseither, you know what I mean.
Like that I would haveconsidered cheating.
Now, I would have consideredthat maybe a more basic form
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versus one that I want to punchyou for.
Terrance (12:04):
So I said that everyone defines these things
differently.
Yeah.
And I think that what you'redoing and it's, it's okay.
I think that you're defining itone way, but you don't want to
admit it, because I asked you ifkissing was considered a sexual
act and you said no moreanything intimate versus it
doesn't have to necessarily.
(12:25):
So let me.
Let me ask you this you sayanything intimate versus it
doesn't have to necessarily besexual, Okay.
So let me ask you this you sayanything intimate.
Holding hands is intimate.
No, listen.
So here's the thing.
Everyone defines as different.
What I'm trying to get is I'mtrying to get you to define it
for yourself, Because one minuteyou have a definition.
Sandy (12:43):
You're making me rethink, because if you hold somebody
else's hand, I'm knocking youout, because you don't even hold
my hand.
Terrance (12:51):
Well, first off, let's get one thing clear we don't
promote or condone violence here.
We don't.
And second, you would never beable to knock me out and if you
tried, you'd probably wake up acouple days later realizing that
was a mistake.
So stop with the violence andstart to go through your
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progression and think in yourmind how you would define this,
because you keep coming up withnew things and I'm just trying
to get what it is that is goingto.
Let me take a step back.
I'm going to say this I thinkyour definition.
You have to put more time intofinding this, because I think
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your definition makes you alittle unrational.
And let me explain what I mean.
Ok.
I'll say one thing and you'llsay oh, if you do that, I'm
knocking you out.
I say another thing oh well,you're right, but I'm knocking
you out.
I say another thing oh well,you're right, but I'm still
knocking you out.
Sandy (13:50):
The short of it is I didn't say everything in the
beginning.
Yeah To my defense.
Terrance (13:56):
What you have to do is , in order for us to have a real
conversation about this, youactually have to think to
yourself and think okay, well, Ihave to define what this is,
Because when someone, if twopeople, aren't on the same page
right in regards to theirdefinitions, then when something
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happens, you can't hold theother person accountable because
you didn't have a conversation.
And one person may think, hey,listen, holding hands is not a
big deal.
Yeah.
And where the other personthinks, oh, listen, holding
hands is not a big deal, yeah,and the other person thinks, oh,
you're holding somebody's hands, I'm going to take you out.
Yeah.
Sandy (14:32):
So, so yeah, no, I would not like it if you were holding
somebody else's hand.
Terrance (14:37):
No one's at All, right , listen, but I mean like no, I
know I'm trying to think ofthrough all the levels, like
basically being physical withsomeone.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So here's what I will say.
I think that there aredifferent levels.
Terrance (14:55):
When you start talking about intimacy, when you start
talking about infidelity and youstart talking about cheating.
I don't think you can cheat 50%, so this is how you got to
think about it.
Yeah, either you cheated or youdidn't.
You can't get into.
Oh, you did something withsomeone and that makes me very
upset.
That was over the line.
(15:16):
You can do things that are overthe line that aren't considered
cheating.
Ok.
You see what I'm saying, yeah,yeah.
I do I think we're going tomove on.
Sandy (15:28):
No, no, all right.
So, thinking back, anythingover the line would be, yes,
kissing and any type of sexualbehavior.
And then the emotional aspectof it right is also in my
definition cheating cheating,Although I feel like that even
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has its own separate layersbecause, like you can have an
emotional relationship To me, Ithink there needs to be some
kind of underlying, almost likephysical or emotional, like want
and need to make it really anemotional infidelity.
And then the whole online pieceyeah, like I don't know, I
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don't care if you watch stuff,but if you're sending things to
certain people and communicatingin a way to certain people.
That would be my onlinedefinition of cheating.
Terrance (16:30):
Yeah, I don't think from the emotional perspective.
I think that, if well, let merephrase this, let me take a
step back.
Have you ever heard the term?
And I know you use work wife?
But when you start talkingabout work husband and work wife
and things like that, why doyou think that is From an
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emotional perspective?
You're saying you have someform of attachment to someone
that is on the level of a lifepartner.
Sandy (17:00):
So see, I don't define work wife and work husband that
way.
Work wife and work husband isjust the person that I at work,
that I talk to outside of workand that we have a friendly
relationship.
Terrance (17:11):
Why wouldn't that just be a friend?
I?
Sandy (17:13):
don't know.
Terrance (17:14):
Well see, now, here's the thing.
Sandy (17:15):
I guess they are on a slightly different level than
everybody else.
Terrance (17:20):
These are the people that I'm going to stay friends
with, whether or not we worktogether or not so don't you
think by using those titles,you're diminishing your
relationship with that personyou have a partnership with?
Sandy (17:32):
Could be.
Terrance (17:33):
I never thought about it that way, but I think it does
, and it doesn't bother mebecause I am very confident in
who I am like that you run therisk of having your actual
husband or your actual wifethink that they're not good
enough or they're not doingsomething right, because now, at
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your job, you have you have aspouse, exactly.
Sandy (18:00):
Well, does it make a difference that I have a
same-sex spouse at work?
Terrance (18:06):
It may.
You may have some questionsthat you need to ask yourself,
that you're afraid to answer,but that's neither here nor
there.
All right, so let's get back ontopic.
Okay, infidelity is one ofthose things where it's not easy
for people to talk about, butit happens.
And then the question becomesis there ever a justification
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for someone cheating?
Is there ever a justificationfor?
Someone cheating.
No, I like your one wordanswers.
Listen, people are always goingto try to.
Sandy (18:38):
I feel like people try to justify it in their mind.
Terrance (18:41):
Yes, people always try to justify their actions with
excuses or reasons.
The question that I'm asking isis there ever a true
justification for someonecheating?
And again, keep this in mindwe're not the end, all be all
when we start talking about this.
What we're talking about is youknow, from a general
(19:07):
perspective, we know that thishappens.
Is there anything that crossesyour mind where you say okay,
well, I understand that.
No, okay, how about you?
It's never happened to me.
Well, it's never happened to methat I know of, so it's hard to
answer that question.
It's very difficult to say hardno.
I think people's emotions getcaught up in it, and I know for
(19:28):
a fact your emotion gets caughtup in it because the way you're
answering directly you're notprocessing.
I'm a very emotional personYou're not thinking about not to
say that there is something outthere, but you're not thinking
about all the possibilities thatthey end up in a situation like
(19:53):
this, or when they end up beingunfaithful right, typically
they're Well, I can't even talkabout typically, when someone
doesn't feel that their needsare being met, that may be a
reason for them to step out.
(20:16):
When I talk about unmet needs,they could be emotional, they
could be physical and, dependingon what they are, they seek
validation outside of the actualrelationship.
So let me ask you this yeah.
I'm loving the quick one wordyes, no, if you weren't doing
(20:38):
your part from the physical oremotional perspective and you
were in a relationship, do youthink that would justify someone
stepping out for validationfrom someone else?
Someone stepping out forvalidation from someone else?
Sandy (20:51):
No, I still don't think it's a justifiable reason.
I understand that they feellike they're justified, but I
don't think it's still ajustifiable reason.
If you're feeling like yourneeds are not being met, then
you need to one have aconversation about it.
Terrance (21:11):
Let's say that conversation is had.
Sandy (21:12):
Okay, and if it's still not happening, then what's the
point of being in therelationship?
Terrance (21:21):
That is a very good answer.
I mean a very good question.
But let me ask you this let'ssay you're the one who's not
meeting the needs.
Let's say the conversation ishad.
Sandy (21:30):
Let's say you still refuse to meet those needs well
then I I still rather you leaveme before you cheat on me why
are you keeping that person in arelationship then, if you're
not going to actually meet the?
Terrance (21:44):
and listen, I don't condone.
I don't condone cheating.
What I'm trying to do is I'mtrying to get you to think about
this right, I get you.
Sandy (21:50):
But like what if I can't physically meet the needs?
Like you know what I mean.
Terrance (21:54):
Why?
Why wouldn't you be able tophysically meet the needs I?
Sandy (21:55):
don't know.
People have all kinds ofmedical issues Like what if it
can't be met?
Terrance (22:00):
What about the mental aspect?
Of it.
Sandy (22:11):
And yeah, but I mean back to the physical one.
So does that mean, just becauseI can't physically meet those
needs anymore, that it's okayfor you to just go do what you
want to do?
No, and if you feel like thatthat's what you need, then take
me out of the equation.
That's how I feel.
Or you know, let's go to thestore and find something that we
can both, you know, enjoytogether, right Before it gets
(22:31):
to that level.
Terrance (22:33):
You just make sure you do your part.
I've done a little research onthis, but another one that's
used is when someone feelsvulnerable, and let me explain
what I mean from the perspectiveof vulnerable.
It's not so much that, ooh,take advantage of me, it's more
of you know, during times ofduress or stress, or you know a
(22:59):
bad patch in a relationship, oryou're feeling lonely and you
have that work husband whosaddles up to the side of you to
offer you some support, Somework support, Some work support,
Some work support.
You see where those workhusbands and them work wives can
actually.
You know the thing about.
(23:20):
That is the one thing that andI don't want to go too off topic
with this the one thing thatyou want to keep in mind.
If someone classifies himselfas a work husband or work wife,
you never really know what'sgoing on in their actual head.
And I think what happenssometimes is people play these
games and it's all fun and gamesuntil the situation arises and
bam.
Sandy (23:41):
Yeah, you done cheated.
Terrance (23:43):
They found you in a vulnerable spot and you done
cheated.
Sandy (23:48):
So you mean like somebody trying to take advantage of me?
Terrance (23:51):
I'm not talking about taking advantage of you.
Sandy (23:53):
I'm talking about taking advantage of a situation.
Well, yeah, yeah, Like right.
I'm vulnerable and they'retaking advantage of the
situation.
Terrance (24:03):
Now there's some accountability on your part too,
because you cheated.
Sandy (24:06):
Well, yeah, because you always have the.
You always have the ability tosay no.
Yeah.
Like this is going too far.
Terrance (24:21):
Stop, I don't know, you know what I mean Before we
cross any lines.
I love that sound effect.
Stop, was that supposed to be atruck?
Sandy (24:34):
Yeah, I guess love that sound effect, stop was that
supposed to be a truck?
Terrance (24:36):
yeah, I guess you know , but uh, apparently I'm not
good at sound effects, no, andvoices, but.
Sandy (24:40):
But you know, and I, you know, and I admit it, I know
that I'm probably the one, thatis, one of the type of people
that are just like you know,nope, nope, nope, I don't I'm
gonna hit any gray area becauseI yeah, because I am very I'm
gonna hit you with, I'm gonnahit you with, uh, something
(25:01):
afterwards, but okay, right nowwe're just going through some of
these common, these commonexcuses that people use to say
okay, okay.
Terrance (25:10):
Well, this is why I cheated.
Another one of those is whensomeone is unsatisfied in the
relationship, whether it's froma sexual compatibility
perspective, from the frequencyof satisfaction.
It's just someone feelsunsatisfied and so they seek
(25:32):
satisfaction outside therelationship.
Sandy (25:33):
So it's kind of like number one unmet needs right.
I mean, it is To me it's likere-evaluate the relationship,
then but no, there is adifference there.
Terrance (25:44):
The unmet needs.
That's not necessarily physical.
It's physical or mental.
That's not necessarily physical.
It's physical or mentalUnsatisfied.
You know when I'm talking aboutnot being satisfied.
That is more on the sexual side.
Sandy (25:56):
Okay, yeah, so again I am sticking with number one, like
it's time to just reassess therelationship.
And if it's not working out,where are these numbers coming
from?
Announcer (26:06):
Where are these numbers coming from?
I don't got no numbers.
Terrance (26:10):
I got no numbers on here.
Sandy (26:11):
No, but that was the first one that we talked about.
That's why I said number one.
But anyhow, you know, again, Idon't want to put anybody down
for their own personal decisionsor their justification in their
own mind or their justificationin their own mind, but in that
(26:31):
situation it's like, well, youshould have re-evaluated the
relationship then, and if itmeans that you're not happy and
you don't want to be in therelationship, then don't be in
the relationship.
Terrance (26:45):
Very true.
Now keep this in mind, becauseyou know it.
It seems like you're coming atme.
These are excuses that peopleuse.
These aren't.
These aren't reasons, and youhave to refute the reasons.
These are excuses that peopleuse when they end up in that
situation, and one of thoseexcuses they may say reasons is
(27:05):
opportunity is opportunity, andwhat that simply means is they
find themselves in the situationwhere the opportunity to cheat
presents itself and they takeadvantage of it.
Sandy (27:17):
Is that like, especially when people have their list?
Terrance (27:23):
No, that's not when people have their list.
That's a situation where, let'ssay, you go to someone's
birthday party and somebody'sthrowing themselves all over you
well, let's, let's.
Either someone's throwingthemselves all over you or all
of a sudden, you know you turnaround and you go in the
(27:43):
refrigerator.
You're getting yourselfsomething to drink and when you
turn back around, everybody'sgone.
There's a naked girl standingthere.
Sandy (27:49):
Oh, that's a fun part, Opportunity.
Terrance (27:54):
There can be any situation where you know it's
not even a situation where youthought about it prior.
It's oh, there's someone comingon to me or there's a naked
person here.
Yeah, Opportunity, Knock, knock.
Sandy (28:08):
Knock knock.
Let me go take advantage ofthat opportunity.
Terrance (28:12):
And obviously, again, all of these things are excuses.
Sandy (28:17):
I feel like actually, honestly, a big excuse tends to
be like oh, I was inebriated.
Terrance (28:22):
Well, I mean listen, that's.
I feel like a big one, but Ithink that's the biggest cop-out
also, because if you know youwere inebriated, then you know
what you were doing.
Sandy (28:35):
Right.
Terrance (28:35):
Now let's say you black out and prior to you
blacking out, you're good, youain't doing nothing.
Sandy (28:44):
Yeah, I wouldn't consider that cheating.
You're blacked out and you'renot.
Terrance (28:50):
That's, I mean there's another word for that.
Sandy (28:52):
We're not going to get into that.
Yeah, let's not.
Terrance (28:54):
I think all of this when we start talking about all
of this.
It's really encapsulated by thislast excuse and some people
will call it a reason, but it'sreally an excuse and it all
comes down to lack of acommitment.
You know what I mean.
(29:16):
If one partner or both partnershave a low level of commitment
to each other, then that opensthe door for promiscuity.
I guess promiscuity is not theword Infidelity on both parts,
but when you start talking aboutsomeone being unfaithful, but
when you start talking aboutsomeone being unfaithful, there
(29:38):
is a level of lack of commitment, and it might not be a high
level, but from the perspectiveof what you're doing, as you're
stepping out on yourrelationship, I think there's an
issue with some commitmentthere.
So now I think there's one morereason, though.
What Go ahead?
There's?
Sandy (29:51):
a lot more reasons.
I would feel like retribution,like if you I don't know if that
you feel like your partnerreally upset you and you're
trying to one-up them yeah, so Icover that in the next.
Terrance (30:03):
We're gonna get to that because I cover that and I
cover that in in the nextsection.
But before I get to the nextsection, when you know, we
talked about I wanted to talkabout defining infidelity, which
we did, and then I want to talkabout.
Then we talked about whether ornot there was a justification.
Now I want to hit you with this.
You were so quick to say no, no, no, no, no.
(30:23):
Right Yep.
Let me ask you this question howmuch do you love me?
No, no, answer the question.
Answer the question.
Sandy (30:32):
You're one of my favorite people.
Terrance (30:34):
I'll take that as an answer, but that's not the
actual, real answer you know, Ilove you a lot.
What.
I'm saying is this what I'msaying is this.
Mm-hmm.
If you're put in a situationwhere someone makes a mistake
and you have to throw all theyears of good out, you're doing
it with no question.
Sandy (30:56):
Just even thinking about it makes my blood boil, to be
honest.
But listen honestly, early inour relationship I would have
said you're out Now.
Not that I'm trying to give youan excuse to go do anything.
Terrance (31:08):
I don't need no excuse Because.
Sandy (31:09):
I don't know how I would truly react.
Terrance (31:13):
And we can talk about that afterwards.
But here's the reason why I'mtruly react, and we can talk
about that afterwards, buthere's the reason why I'm saying
this.
What I'm saying is this If youwere to sit down and ask someone
these questions immediately,they're going to be like you and
say no, where, from myperspective, I have to think
about?
You can't just say, you justcan't answer Because you don't
(31:34):
have all the information andyou've got to think about okay,
well, what have you builttogether?
Yeah.
Because now, once you thinkabout that, you start to think
about what are you going to loseor what can you possibly lose.
Yeah.
Is it worth throwing all thatstuff away?
Possibly lose, yeah.
Is it worth throwing all?
Sandy (31:54):
that stuff away and see, I would automatically respond
with you already threw that awaythe moment you cheated.
Terrance (32:01):
I mean you can say that, but again, you can't speak
for someone else, no, I know.
And the question becomes okay,well, you say I threw that all
away.
Right, but you're doing thesame thing.
You didn't do the same thing.
But now what you're saying isnothing else matters.
You're going to say I'm goingto throw all that away, and then
(32:26):
who do you think is going to?
Actually, you don't thinkyou're going to suffer from that
of course, I think that's just,you know.
Sandy (32:36):
That's honestly what the next part of the topic is, which
is the fallout right.
Like I can't say for certainwhat I would do, that's what I'm
trying to get you to action islike that's it, it, I'm done,
it's over.
That is my knee jerk reaction.
Terrance (32:57):
Yes, so I get that.
That's your knee jerk reaction,but that's why we have these
conversations, because that'snot what I want.
What we're supposed to be doingis, and what we're doing here
is we're having thoughtprovoking conversations and I'm
dropping these pieces becausewhat has to happen is you have
to start thinking about.
Okay, if I say that's it, mylife changes.
Sandy (33:21):
Yeah.
Terrance (33:21):
Right, because now you got to think about it from the
perspective that how youinteract with family is going to
change.
Sandy (33:29):
Yeah, everything, like you said everything.
Terrance (33:31):
So now let's talk about yeah, see, this is why I
wanted you to hear that becausenow I want to talk about what
impact infidelity can actuallyhave on a relationship and those
people who actually involved,because you know, all actions
have consequences and whensomeone cheats, that has a huge
(33:55):
impact.
When someone cheats, that has ahuge impact.
When someone cheats the mostimmediately, right off the bat,
I say there's a loss there, andthat first loss is trust.
It immediately goes out thewindow and you know how I feel
(34:16):
Without trust.
What do you actually have,right?
Mm-hmm?
What are some of the otherthings?
You hit on this earlier.
What are some other things thatcheating can cause an impact on
you?
Sandy (34:35):
Oh well, first it's anger .
Oh my God, I'd be so angry andbe like ridiculous.
Terrance (34:41):
But that's not the one you said first, it was revenge,
revenge.
Sandy (34:44):
It was revenge, but that wouldn't be my first reaction,
the anger, and I would also puttogether with that, because once
the anger even starts tosubside, even a tiny bit, it'll
also then turn into resentment.
That's going to be like theinitial, like immediate response
(35:06):
, like devastation, anger,resentment.
Let me ask you this all thoseemotional feelings, let me ask
you this how those emotionalfeelings.
Terrance (35:14):
Let me ask you this how long do you hold on to that
for?
Sandy (35:17):
oh, I can hold on to anger for a long time.
Terrance (35:20):
Well, there's a reason why I'm asking you that right
because you know, you know whatI say all the time when you
allow people to invoke thosetypes of emotions in you.
For long periods of time,you're giving them power over
you, and that's not to say thatyou can't feel that way.
What I'm saying is, when youhold on to it, it's only going
to eat away at you.
Sandy (35:40):
No, do I know that's a healthy response?
Of course I know it's nothealthy.
Terrance (35:45):
Well, yeah, you said, do I know that's a healthy
response?
Sandy (35:49):
Yeah, well, I meant not healthy response, yeah, but I
know myself too and I know thatit would be what I would do.
I would be, yeah, I'd just beinsanely angry.
I can't even define how angry Iwould be, you'd be very, very
(36:11):
angry.
Let's get past those emotionsfor a second.
And then how do I react fromthat anger?
Well, that might be one of myreactions.
No, I mean, like you hurt me sobad, I'm gonna hurt you now,
but listen, so let me ask youthat I I hear what you're saying
(36:33):
, what.
Terrance (36:33):
What does that solve?
Sandy (36:34):
Nothing.
Terrance (36:35):
And how do you know that's going to actually make
the actual person upset, or howdo you know how that's going to
make them feel?
Yeah it might not, and thething about that is now.
So, right now, if that's yourreaction, what makes you better
than them?
And I'm not saying one person'sbetter than the other, but if
(36:58):
you say, well, you did it first,that still doesn't make it
right.
Sandy (37:01):
No, it doesn't make you any better.
Terrance (37:02):
Yeah.
Sandy (37:06):
So let's get you know.
Like I said, I recognize thatit's when you go through your
revenge, your revenge cheat.
Terrance (37:19):
Do you feel guilty afterwards?
I don't know.
So let me ask you this by youdoing to your partner what hurts
you so bad that doesn't have animpact on you, You're you're.
(37:41):
You're acting out of hurt,trying to hurt someone.
Sandy (37:44):
Yeah, no, of course, like you know, I know what you're,
where you're going, and I knowit's all wrong, but that is how
I'm trying.
Terrance (37:58):
So this is where this is.
I'm trying to help you growwithout having to go through
this, so you can actually grow.
Announcer (38:04):
You know, in the beginning I said I said you know
, sometimes growth comes out ofthis.
Sandy (38:08):
Yeah, you know, I, yeah, I would say, anger is not a good
quality to have.
Terrance (38:19):
Well, yeah, let me ask you this you can make some bad
decisions in anger.
Let me ask you this At anypoint, someone cheats on you.
At any point are youquestioning whether or not you
did something wrong, or are youworth?
Are you worth it?
Is it you?
Sandy (38:38):
well, right, I feel like that would be the very first
question in my mind why?
Terrance (38:42):
after you get out.
After you get out, like youknow, your very first question
is where's the knife?
Because I gotta cut you.
That's your first question yousaid we don't condone violence
no, I I definitely don't, butI'm looking at you right now.
You're fortunate that this isnot a video podcast yet, because
right now you might have peopledialing 911.
Sandy (39:03):
Why Is my anger showing?
Terrance (39:05):
You've been kicking your leg, that nervous twitch in
your leg the whole time we'vebeen having this conversation.
Sandy (39:10):
I told you, just even thinking about it just makes my
blood boil as it is.
But you know, I think this is ahealthy conversation to have.
Terrance (39:19):
Yeah it's healthy as long as you stop twitching, get
your hands out of your pocket.
I think that, from an impactperspective, people can start
questioning themselves andasking themselves OK well, did I
do something wrong?
Is there something wrong withme?
And I think it's important toknow that and to know that, ok
(39:40):
well, your actions haveconsequences.
And this is possibly one ofthose consequences, because when
you start to think from thatperspective, maybe when you're
out there and the opportunitypresents itself or you know
you're unsatisfied and you knowyou'll think about these things
and that may prevent you fromstepping out and preventing you
from getting stabbed in thethroat.
Sandy (40:05):
I'm curious, though, what you think about all of it, like
what, what's your immediatereaction be?
Would you say, off the bat is.
Terrance (40:14):
It won't be anger.
So if you haven't realized bynow, I'm a different breed.
Yeah.
The first question is why andhow we got here.
Yeah.
And depending on how honest,that answer is right.
Mm-hmm.
(40:38):
That would determine where wewould go from there.
And again, let's talk about,you know, can we recover, and
we'll save that for the can werecover perspective.
But before we get to that, whatI want to just say is I want to
hit on two things from animpact perspective that I think
everyone needs to understandwhen they cheat.
First off, we talked about lossof trust, but at the same time,
when you start talking aboutloss of trust, there's a loss of
(40:59):
respect, and it's not just foryour partner.
It really should be foryourself as well.
But the bigger part about allof this is the biggest impact is
it could be the demise of yourrelationship.
Now, that might be your goal tobegin with.
Right, it might be your goal tobegin with, but if it's not,
that's something that you haveto understand.
Now let's talk about can youactually recover?
(41:21):
And so your question to me iswhat my response would be.
I hear people all the time andthis is why I was saying to you
that they say if my partnercheats, that's it, it's over.
But again, when you start tothink about your relationship,
and if you have had up to thatpoint, and let's make the
(41:42):
assumption everything has beenrock solid.
Of course you'll have your upsand downs, but there's never
been a situation where this hashappened.
And it happens, bam, do youthrow it all out?
From my perspective, there hasto be a real, honest and open
(42:03):
conversation.
Because, if you don't have thathonest and open conversation,
you're never going to know howyou got to where you are, and
that honesty has to come fromboth sides.
At the same time, two of thebiggest things that people have
(42:27):
very they have a very shortamount of patience and
forgiveness.
Yeah, Because forgivenessdoesn't mean we're all good,
we're back together.
But again, you know how I feelwhen you hold something against
someone.
Mm-hmm.
You know they say I always sayforgive, don't forget.
But forgiveness is huge becauseif you've had this love for
(42:50):
this person, you've had it for areason.
Yeah.
Things change, but that doesn'tthrow away everything that
you've done or everything thatyou've been through or
everything that you've built upto that point.
So for me, it's really abouthaving that discussion and
seeing okay, well, how do we gethere now?
(43:11):
How we got there?
Your reason might be shit, youknow what I mean.
Yeah, but I have to hear thatfirst.
Sandy (43:22):
Yeah.
Terrance (43:22):
Before I can make a judgment.
I have to hear that, Because ifI don't hear that, then what do
we ever have?
Sandy (43:29):
So, to be honest, I would love to say that I feel like I
could be the bigger person and,depending on the situation, we
could potentially work throughit.
However, at the same time,that's where I question myself
Could I ever forgive, like Idon't know, like could I ever
(43:52):
get over it?
Terrance (43:53):
So now I should question how much do you really
love me?
Sandy (43:58):
And still a lot Like that's the problem, right?
So listen, let me give you some.
If I didn't love you and youcheated on me, then I probably
could forgive.
Terrance (44:08):
So let me ask you this question Now.
I'm going to put you in acatch-22 right now.
Sandy (44:13):
Okay, go for it.
Have you ever been cheated on?
Yeah?
Terrance (44:18):
Have you ever gotten back with a person who has
cheated on you?
Sandy (44:22):
No.
Terrance (44:22):
No.
No are you being honest rightnow?
I'm being honest okay, I won'tthrow no names out there.
I won't throw no names.
So let me ask you this, andthis is a whole no, I'm is
(44:43):
cheating the worst thing thatsomeone can do to you well, I
guess, besides, no, I guess not,no, it's not there's a lot of
physical, mental stuff that canhappen besides cheating.
Now.
Sandy (44:57):
Outside of cheating.
Terrance (44:58):
I should say.
So the point that I'm trying tomake is I know that there are
situations and I'm not talkingabout you where people put
themselves through, or putthrough hell, yeah, and they
return to hell yeah, and theyreturn to those situations and
they stay yeah and I guess whatI'm trying to figure out is and
(45:22):
again, I don't condone any ofthis I'm trying to figure out
how do you justify thatsituation as opposed to the
other situation?
right, you get what I'm saying.
Yeah, well, as opposed to theother situation.
You get what I'm saying.
Sandy (45:32):
Yeah, well, I feel, like the other situations, it could
be more about being scared.
Terrance (45:39):
No, do you know what I mean?
I get that and I want to takethat and put that to the side.
Well, that's what.
Sandy (45:44):
I was going to say, though it elicits different
responses.
Terrance (45:47):
Yeah.
Sandy (45:48):
You know what I mean.
Depending on the situation, itelicits different responses.
You know what I mean, dependingon the situation.
So it's like well, which ofyour own internal response is
where you can cut the line?
What can you forgive versuswhat can you not?
You know.
Terrance (46:05):
Yeah.
So here's what I'm going to do,because it doesn't seem that
you're there yet.
I'm going to give you somethings that I believe can help
recover.
That's not save, but helprecover from a situation.
The first thing, like I said,having that open and honest
discussion and conversation.
Sandy (46:24):
Which is funny because I ended up reading an article
today about Jay-Z cheating onBeyonce.
Terrance (46:30):
That was a while ago, it was.
Sandy (46:31):
It was like I don't know 2016.
Terrance (46:32):
You just not heard about that.
Sandy (46:34):
No but he, I guess, talked about the rationale on it
, and part of it was having todelve into himself and
understanding his own why, andthat sometimes people don't want
to go that deep withinthemselves to understand that so
(46:56):
regardless, you.
Terrance (46:57):
You know why?
Because, regardless of what,why you come up with yeah it's
just an excuse right you'rerationalizing something in your
mind for why you hurt someone,and being honest about it is
what you should be, butultimately you have to
understand I hurt you.
(47:17):
Yeah.
It was a mistake,ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.
So having that open and honestconversation is key, but what I
just said also is key you got totake responsibility for your
actions.
Before anyone can start to lookat a situation and say, okay, I
(47:40):
need to forgive this person,you have to first take
responsibility for your actions.
You can't expect someone toforgive you if you're not
willing to be accountable or tohold yourself accountable.
Sandy (47:55):
Yeah, and I honestly I do think the person who does
cheated, how they respond tothat person's hurt, I think
would have a big impact onwhether a couple could get
through it or not.
Yeah, so because if you're justlike yeah, I cheated, like and
you make no effort or try tounderstand that, they are going
(48:23):
to go through different stagesof anger, of resentment, of like
those things, in that you haveto put in probably a hundred
times more effort than you didin the beginning of your
relationship.
Terrance (48:38):
Yeah, and I'm gonna break it down for you.
I'll make it simple.
You got to be realistic.
Yeah.
It's going to be hard.
You have to understand thatthat person has to go through
all of those phases that youjust mentioned and they go
through them on their owntimeframe.
That's why I said patience andforgiveness and that patience is
(48:58):
on both sides.
But the bigger part is, youknow, the person who did the
deed has to understand look,things aren't going to go back
to the way they were like that.
They may never go back to theway they were like that.
They may never go back to theway they were.
But if this is something thatyou actually want, got to be
realistic.
It's going to be hard.
You got to put a lot of effortin and even with all that effort
(49:21):
, you might not get back toactually where you were.
Sandy (49:24):
Yeah, Because I was going to say I could even see it
being cyclical, Like right, Likeyou get to a point in your
relationship where everything isokay.
But it could also now becomelike a trigger for that person
and it could be even somethingso slight that is going to
trigger them and set them back.
Terrance (49:41):
Yeah, well, that's why you got to work on rebuilding
trust.
Right.
And that is going to take aconsistent effort.
And again you got to berealistic.
You might think that you'reputting enough effort into it,
but it's not based on whatyou're doing.
Sandy (49:59):
Right, you did the deed.
The other person might notthink.
Terrance (50:03):
And again, that's part of being realistic.
Part of being realistic isunderstanding that all that
effort might be for nothing.
Sandy (50:13):
Yeah.
Terrance (50:14):
But if you think that that person is worth it, you go
through that understanding thatthis is what you have to do.
Sandy (50:21):
And I would say that would be the only way I could
see coming out the end, out ofthe end, out of all of it.
Fine is the amount of effortthat would go into it.
It wouldn't be like, oh, I gaveyou 100%, like 200% of my
effort for two weeks.
You should have forgiven me now.
Yeah, and you know what elseLike you have to understand that
(50:43):
everything is going to be basedon.
Terrance (50:46):
It's not your time frame.
It's not yours, it's theirs.
Now what I will say is thisit's not your time frame, it's
not yours, it's theirs.
Now what I will say is thisit's not your time frame, but at
some point you're going to haveto make a decision.
And let me explain what I meanIf it's been 10 years, listen
you're going to have to make adecision.
Sandy (51:01):
Is it worth progressing and trying to rebuild this or,
to your point, is it the demiseof the relationship?
Terrance (51:07):
Yeah, there's two things that I want to say.
Okay about recovery beforebefore we wrap up, first, you
now have to make sure that youset clear boundaries and
expectations, because maybe itwas because you didn't have
those boundaries to begin withbut, now, after going through a
(51:30):
situation, got to set them to beclear and hold people to them.
Right, if you don't want arepeat of what happened, lay it
out.
This is how it's going to be,this is what it needs to be, and
then you can only do this ifboth parties are willing.
(51:50):
You have to work on rebuildingthat emotional connection you
got to work on restoring thatbond and that intimacy, because
if you can't do that, then youreally don't have a shot of
getting close to where you were.
Well, yep to where you were.
Sandy (52:09):
Well, yep, and I think the important part about that
one is being open, honest and,like you said, realistic, even
on the how did we get here, whathappened?
And I think both parties needto take a look at themselves.
It's not, mind you, the personwho cheated right, they were
(52:32):
wrong, they took it to the nextlevel, right.
But I think the person who wascheated on still has to look at
themselves when that partnermight say, well, I was not being
satisfied or certain needsweren't being met.
You know, and I tried having aconversation.
(52:55):
Maybe you didn't try having aconversation, I don't know, or
maybe they did.
Or maybe they did, maybe theydidn't.
That's what I mean.
Like you, you then have to takea look at yourself and be like
okay, how did I also let thisget to this point?
It could be a situation whereit was like it was nothing that
you could have done.
Terrance (53:11):
Well, I think it's important.
You said something veryimportant.
It's not how did I let thissituation happen, it's more, how
did I end up in this situation?
Yeah, Because you're notletting someone go step out, but
you may have some culpability,and I'm not saying that you do
and I.
Sandy (53:28):
You may have some culpability and I'm not saying
that you do and I want people tounderstand that In the
relationship you haveculpability, exactly.
Terrance (53:33):
In the position that you're actually in from the
perspective of okay, well,sometimes a rat is a rat, yeah,
right, right.
Sometimes people give you signs, you may ignore them.
Right, yeah, sometimes you maydo some things or be in
situations where there are signsand you ignore them.
Sandy (53:51):
Right, exactly.
Terrance (53:53):
Those are the things that you have to speak with
yourself and have questions with.
Ultimately, repairing arelationship after infidelity
requires a willingness toconfront difficult emotions,
communicate openly and worktogether towards building trust
and intimacy together towardsbuilding trust and intimacy.
While the process may bechallenging, it is possible for
(54:13):
couples to emerge stronger andmore resilient if both parties
are committed to the journey ofhealing and growth.
Thank you for joining us on theLunch with Sandy podcast.
Please be sure to follow us andleave feedback on your favorite
podcasting app as well associal media.
Until next time, stay well.
Announcer (54:32):
That's it for this week's episode of the Lunch with
Sandy podcast.
Thanks for listening.
We'd love to hear your feedbackand comments on Instagram,
TikTok and Twitter at Lunch withSandy, and be sure to follow us
on your favorite podcast app.
If you enjoyed the show, don'tforget to rate and review us.
Thanks again for listening tothe Lunch with Sandy podcast.
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