September 5, 2022 • 48 mins
From a chance detour, we came across the Sidna Allen House. Then into the wormhole on this week's episode about the Hillsville Courthouse Massacre, a bit of forgotten Appalachian history.
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Ref:
https://theroanoker.com/interests/history/hillsville-massacre
https://www.geni.com/people/Floyd-Allen/6000000137616036007#:~:text=March%2014%2C%201912%20-%20After%20Floyd%20Allen%20is,Massacre.%22%20Allen%20and%20his%20family%20flee%20the%20scene.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marissa (00:00):
Macabrepedia makes light of dark subject matter and
(00:02):
may not be suitable for allaudiences. Listener discretion
is advised.
Matthew (00:13):
On a somewhat empty stretch of highway 52 next to a
scattering of flea markets andfarmland through fancy gapped
Virginia rest Carroll County'smost beautifully designed home
the paint flakes from the sidingand shutters sure the roof
shingles could use replacingaround the porches gazebo. But
the white columns and artfullycarved filigree remain to stand
(00:35):
as proof to its magnificentagainst 100 plus years of time.
The house was designed and builtby the man who dreamed of one
day living there. But as aresult of three wrongful death
lawsuits brought against theowner of the house. The home was
seized by the state on behalf ofthe families of those who died.
(00:57):
It was rented out for the nextfive years before two defense
attorneys, Nicholas P. ogilbyand Robert P. Bruce bought it
and continued its use as aboarding house. These defense
lawyers once represented the manwho built the house Sidna Allen,
one of the men who headed whatwould sometimes be referred to
(01:20):
as the Allen gang. Join us as weadd another entry into this our
Macabrepedia.
Marissa (01:33):
Hello, and welcome to Macabrepedia a marriage of true
crown the truly bizarre. We'reyour hosts Marissa and Matthew.
And today we're bringing you astory for something that we just
kind of happened upon. While wewere on my way to my cousin's
wedding.
Matthew (01:48):
Yeah, we were driving by we were driving into fancy
get Virginia, right. And it'sjust right off of 77 which
stretches for forever. And whilewe're driving by Marissa was
driving and we see this likereally beautiful little white
house not that little it standsout. It definitely stands out.
It is very, it is very differentthan everything else around
(02:10):
it's, there's, like I said inthe opening, there's like a
little there's like a littleflea market, kind of like, you
know, tin garage sale kind ofthing happening there. And it's
there's like variety shops and alittle gas station and the rest
is like just like farmland andpastures. Right? Yeah. But in
front of this house, is a signthat I had jokingly said, as we
(02:34):
drove up to it, that house orthat sign in front of that house
looks like the same sign as infront of the Valeska house
murderers. Little did you know,yeah, so while we while we're
continuing up the road, I justdecided to just, you know, throw
it into into a wiki search. Andlo and behold, there it is
associated to some murders, notthe house itself. But the guy
(02:57):
who built it said and Alan, hewas no stranger to run ins with
law enforcement at the time. Andthe story is not really much
about Sidna nor the house. Butthat's the story in which we
came upon this. And I'm certainthat the expensive wood and
stained glass windows werelikely funded, at least in part
(03:19):
by some less than legalactivities, which the quote
unquote Allen gang were accused,Sidney Allen, he never really
had much of a chance to properlysettle into the house with his
wife and two daughters. You see,he would be on the run shortly
after the construction wascompleted for
Marissa (03:40):
relief because it's a beautiful house.
Matthew (03:41):
Yeah. And he did partake and he did participate
in the actual construction ofit. It's not like he did it by
himself or anything like that.
There was other people involvedbut he designed to he's a hell
of a woodworker. For sure. Andthere it's the house is
currently still going throughsome like renovation or
reconstruction. Right.
(04:04):
Restoration that's got that's abetter word. going in through
some some restoration at the atthis time. And we had stopped by
just last July. You yesterday,whatever. This was on our way
back. This is not from thewedding, but we were kind of we
knew that this was coming up. Sowe wanted to go ahead and snap a
few photos of it. And theyactually had just recently
opened it up to tours. They'reonly from what we just miss.
(04:25):
Yeah, they were like, one 1pm to4pm. On the weekend, Monday or
the first weekend, first weekendof the month there Yeah, so some
silly and but like it's onlylike two rooms and they're
mostly empty. There's like acouch, two couches in one room.
And then there's like a picnictable with some long sleeve
shirts. And then they said thatthey opened up the upstairs for
(04:46):
a reconstruction of of some ofthe courthouse that will later
play a part in the story. But itwas also cool too because they
did it. The two people who werethere doing the tour at this
time, they were dressed inperiod, garb and one Have them
looked like the man who's goingto take up the larger share of
the story Floyd Allen. FloydAllen was born in 1856. He and
(05:11):
his brothers were known to getinto some trouble in their youth
fights and minor crime scenecommonplace when the when the
Alan boys were around. Floyd waswell liked by neighbors
throughout Carroll County,Virginia. He owned a good bit of
land and was one of the fewpeople him and his and his
brothers were some of the fewpeople who actually had like
(05:32):
proper alcohol licensing so theycould produce alcohol. Later
they get into some trouble orsome moonshine run. I don't know
exactly what the what the whatthe ins and outs of their
licensing was. But that's herenor there. Floyd and his
brothers were generous to thosewho did right by them, but their
(05:53):
fuses burned pretty quick whenthey were lit. Floyd had
multiple violent charges broughtagainst him by the late 1880s,
including multiple shootings,one of which was a cousin of
his. He had also been sought forbattering a police officer, his
brothers, Sidna and Garland hadbeen tried for assaulting a
group of 13 men who the hellthat gunpoint all the charges
(06:16):
would be reduced to little morethan a stern finger wagging by
the Commonwealth's attorney. Inthe book, a courtroom massacre,
politics and public sentiment inprogressive era Virginia.
Journal of southern history byRandall Hall would quote Judge
Robert C. Jackson, saying FloydAllen was perhaps the worst man
(06:38):
of the clan, overbearing,vindictive, high tempered,
brutal and no respect for lawand little or no regard for
human life. During my term ofoffice, Floyd Allen, was several
times charged with violations oflaw. In several instances he
escaped indictment. I amsatisfied because the witnesses
(06:58):
were afraid to testify in thefacts before the grand jury.
Lucky for Judge Jackson, hewouldn't preside over the future
cases involving the Allen clan.
In that same text, Jackson wouldrecount a dispute over land
purchasing. As an example, Floydwas attempting to purchase a
stretch of land at a reducedprice. When another buyer no
(07:18):
combs offered to buy the landfor the asking price. Floyd told
combs to back out of the deal.
When combs proceeded with thepurchase, well flood shot him
and it's the land the houses onno Floyd is the Floyd is the
elder brother of cydnus. Right?
So Floyd shoots but Floyd owns abunch of land in Carroll County.
(07:43):
Floyd shoots combs and combs waswounded, though he didn't die
from his injury. Luckily for forFloyd, but he was indicted and
tried with assault. He wasconvicted and sentenced to
paying $100 fine and deserve onehour in jail for the shooting.
Marissa (08:04):
Well, all right. That's not much.
Matthew (08:08):
Just like you could shoot somebody, it's 100 bucks,
which I guess $100 At that time,would it be what six D was or
20? Was 600. So five times that?
Be like six what? Shit? I'm toostupid to do math.
Marissa (08:25):
I'm too tired to do math. So we'll just say it's a
lot of money. It's
Matthew (08:29):
a shit. What the fuck is six times?
Marissa (08:34):
Six times what? I don't even know. See, this is why I
can't do it.
Matthew (08:39):
So $100 At that time, but basically after taking a an
excruciating amount of time todo very simple math having to
break out a calculator here.
It'd be about $3,000 Give ortake. All right. So anyway, so
it's like a $3,000 fine and anhour an hour doesn't have
inflation in it. So an hour it'sa literal an hour in prison like
what? What kind of sentencing isthat? Well, Floyd answers this
(09:01):
and says, I ain't spending onedamn minute in jail.
Marissa (09:07):
Come on, man. This is the best. This is the best
solution you can hope for right?
Matthew (09:13):
He immediately puts up a post bail just immediately
just pays it pays to find postbail. Later when summoned back
to court because he was he wasposted bail until an appeal was
made. So he was he was supposedto be out of out of out of court
until the appeal. When theappeal time came Floyd shows up
(09:33):
with an order from the governorto suspend his sentence.
Marissa (09:38):
Are they buds or something? Yeah, they there's
the
Matthew (09:40):
Allen clan has quite a bit of Yeah, the Allen clan has
a bunch of political ties thereand there this is like a lot of
places like this particularly inlike Appalachia and stuff like
families root in there and theystay there and you know, they
just they In the familycontinues to branch and branch
(10:02):
and branch and branch. So theydig in. So there's only a
handful of families that aregenerally in most of these
haulers and whatnot and aroundthere. So there's so most most
of them are all kids so they'reall kind of connected in some
way or another and I'm notsaying that they're not they're
not they're not blood related tothe Governor or anything like
that. But I know a guy who knowsguy knows a guy and eventually
(10:22):
gets to the point where youdon't have to spend an hour in
jail. Also, it's an hour in jaillike the governor just be like,
I don't give a shit. Like stopshoot people. That's an hour.
Why was it whatever I don'tcare.
Marissa (10:37):
time served. Yeah. So he, so Floyd,
Matthew (10:40):
he, like I said, no stranger to violence, no
stranger to runs in with withwith the law. One one run in
with a law was a gunfight withhis brother Jack over his
father's estate. Jack was thelocal constable. Oh, no. Yeah.
The two exchanged volley ofbullets, one striking Jack along
(11:00):
the scalp and the other takenFloyd in the chest. When the
bullets ran out. Floyd then tooktwo beating his brother.
Marissa (11:06):
He took a bullet hole in his chest.
Matthew (11:08):
Yeah. And he just he just laid into it just got on
him and just started wailing onhim. So in like, I don't know,
Jack took a bullet to the headand it just ricocheted across
his scalp and hard headed. Yeah,hard headed. So Floyd, he gets
arrested, and he's fined $100.
And an hour in jail. To whichFloyd says Not while there is a
(11:30):
lick of blood in these veins amI spending one minute in jail?
And he did not in fact serve oneminute in jail for the assault.
I assume that Jack muscle likelet it go. So it's actually said
that Floyd had 13 bullet woundsscars in his body five of which
(11:52):
were inflicted back in some goodol Appalachian these guys are
they they? I feel like yeah,like crazy. So to kind of touch
back on on Sidna Allen, thebrother at the top of the story.
He was also tried for a handfulof crimes, including an arrest
(12:15):
in 1910 for producingcounterfeit coins that were
there. $20 gold coins. I keep inmind, that's a $623 in 2022.
This math I did ahead of time,that's what screwed me up with
the initial math. I think theywere like,
Marissa (12:32):
I wondered how you just automatically were like, Oh, $20
is $600. Now Yeah,
Matthew (12:37):
I just don't I can do inflation. I just can't take
that inflation and multiply itby five. So anyways, so he, he
gets these. I think they're goldcoins from when I could figure
out the $20 coin in the US was a$20 coin.
Marissa (12:51):
It's a lot of money to be carrying around as a coin at
that time. It's worth
Matthew (12:57):
it. Yeah. So but yeah, so I'm thinking he had like
counterfeit gold or somethingthat he was pressing into into
these coins, but then they'dstopped being in circulation in
like the 1930s. If it's the samething I don't I was looking for
something to put in there tolike, if you said a $20 coin in
us, what we don't have 20. Soanyway, he certainly doesn't sit
(13:21):
in it doesn't seem to have quitethe level of golf that Floyd,
his older brother did. But theAllen family tree, like I said,
it's got branches, and thosebranches are still held firm by
the roots of the same tree ofFloyd Allen. So cousins of the
Alan's were the Edwards andafter a brawl at a local church,
(13:44):
where Wesley Edwards was caughtsmooching, another another's
best gal, while a fight brokeout as things tend to do in such
cases. This fight was joined byother members of the Edwards
clan, including Wesley'sbrother, a man bearing a
seemingly common family name,Sidna. This is Sedna Edwards.
(14:06):
The fight got pretty intense,and the Edward boys were sought
after by the law. So boys beingboys and fearing to face the
consequences of their actions.
They ran for the North CarolinaState Line, which is
Marissa (14:18):
not far from fancy capitol. No, no, it's a hop skip
and a jump.
Matthew (14:23):
And there's actually a lot of the trouble that the
Allen's had with some some someof Floyd's other shootings, they
all happen in like Mount Airy,and in the Greensboro area, so
yeah, so it seems like they,when they were when they were
causing real mischief, they wereoff they went a little further
south, you know, so becauseVirginia is a commonwealth and
(14:47):
it seems like they had reallystrong state lines, like as far
as like, we're jurisdictions andstuff like that. So you could go
you could go raise housesomewhere else and it wasn't
gonna wasn't going to be such abig deal. So Oh, the Edwards
boys, Wesley and Sedna. Theythey run for the border, and
they get new jobs, like a quarryor something. And they plan to
(15:10):
possibly make new lives or atleast hold up until things
cooled down back in Virginia.
Before long, the Edwards boyswere found out and then arrested
at their work in North Carolina.
And there was an exchange thatwas supposed to happen anyways.
So they're they were broughtback to the North Carolina and
(15:31):
Virginia border, and they werehanded off to Deputy Sheriff
Thomas Samuels and his buggydriver, Peter Easter. The two
AdWords brothers were tied intothe back of the buggy sidan
Edwards had previously been ahigh flight risk. So he was also
(15:51):
handcuffed to the front seat bythe only pair of handcuffs that
the deputy apparently thought totake with them. So you got
Wesley, I don't know if he'slike how much he's tied. He may
very well be just hogtied in theback of this buggy. And then
there's, and then you got Sedna,who's also tied, but he's also
(16:15):
handcuffed to behind the driver.
And so the deputy and Easterthey head back into Carroll
County, with their prisoners.
Now, this story serves a fewpurposes this little branching
off here. One is to show thatmore than just Floyd and Sidney
Allen had scrapes with the law.
As the rest of the extendedfamily seems to also have it.
(16:36):
The Edwards had their issues.
The Edwards brothers were alsoto be present at a later event.
So we had to pull them in now tokind of show you why they do
what they do. So now, as Imentioned, Floyd Allen, he owned
a good bit of land in CarrollCounty, so much in fact that
these prisoners had to be takenthrough Floyd's land. And
(17:00):
wouldn't you know, Floyd waswaiting on him. seems not much
happens around Carroll Countywithout old Floyd knowing about
especially if it involves hisfamily. These deputies they ride
up along a spanner Floyd'sproperty and Floyd takes his
horse and rides up to greetthem. And when he gets close
enough to see Wesley tied up andSidna cough to the to the to the
(17:23):
seat, he tells the deputiesrelease them to get rid of them
bonds later claiming that whenhe said that to release them, he
literally meant to untie themlike not to like let them
Marissa (17:39):
let me guess they let them go. Well, now
Matthew (17:42):
the deputy deputy Samuels he pulls a gun and
points it at Floyd Allen andthat's not at all what was
meant. And he tells him to goon. So Florida, he heads on a
little bit and he gets to a partof the road next to sit Allen's
he said own to store. So but inorder to get past and this road
(18:06):
it kind of narrows down so saidhe doesn't take particularly
kindly to the refusal. So herides up and then he uses his
horse to block the road. So thedeputy comes up to this, the
only place that he can go withthis with his buggy. This is a
horse drawn carriageeffectively, right? So that's
(18:27):
what the buggy is. And thedeputy he levels his gun at
Floyd again. Floyd doesn't backdown. He instead he just
dismounts and whether he'sbelieving that he's had 13
bullet wounds already and onemore isn't going to do much more
than cement his legendaryconstitution, or that he's just
confident that the deputy isn'tgoing to pull the trigger or
(18:47):
that he's just a bad shot. Thisis all unclear, but he moves
towards the vehicle and thedeputy lowers his gun has long
arm either because it may havemisfired or because he already
knew that the gun wasn'tactually functional. This is
partly unclear but he goes for asidearm and Floyd seeing this
(19:08):
realizes that the likelihood ofbeing shot is greatly
increasing. Sure. So he lungestowards Samuel disarm the the
man, the deputy and then pistolwhips the shit out of us. And he
said he's beaten the hell out ofout of the deputy Easter taking
pulls a gun and he takes a fewlicks himself. He then decides
(19:31):
he wants nothing to do with thisencounter with Floyd. So he
takes off and starts runningaway to try to call for help.
Floyd unties his nephews and thethree head back towards said
Alan's house.
Marissa (19:44):
You want Floyd on your side?
Matthew (19:46):
Oh yeah, he's a bad yeah, I mean, he is he's a
badass but he's also an idiot.
Anyway, so he sometimes thatgoes hand in hand deputy sent
Yeah, exactly. For sure. Likewhen you don't know when you
don't know that he apparentlyhas immortal his immortality is
now Ever been disproven at thispoint so he's he's really
writing that high so any seemsto be a man of have a bit of
means for the area if he's ownsall this land yeah for sure and
(20:08):
he can keep posting $3,000 bondsall the time so are paying the
fines for shooting neighbors sothey leave. Floyd leaves the
deputy unconscious along theroadside and Floyd had actually
taken a bullet across his handduring the fight probably trying
to like pull that wrestle thegun away. This is also
presumably from Easter firing athim as Easter tried to run away
(20:32):
after cleaning the wound. Hebrings the to the to Edwards
boys this is Floyd he brings itto Edwards boys back to the
courthouse explaining he doesn'tthink they should be set free.
He just doesn't think that theyshould be hogtied. He's made he
was like I wasn't trying to getthem to like let them go. I just
don't like seeing people bemanhandled like that. Meanwhile,
(20:54):
he's he's just freed thedeputies horses or Peter, Peter
Easter's horses to go run, runrun run rampant, just free. And
then he beat the piss out of outof a police officer and left him
in a ditch and he's like I justsaid on time.
Marissa (21:12):
That's pure anarchy. So we couldn't we couldn't settle
this a lot easier.
Matthew (21:17):
Y'all just gotta come on now.
Marissa (21:20):
Got it twisted.
Matthew (21:21):
Yeah, looking at the Cross waves. So apparently
months go by and a politicaladversary to the Allen family.
William Foster. He beginspushing for a further
investigation into the into thisassault of the Deputy Sheriff
Samuel Samuels. Sorry. So Fosterhas been pushing against the
(21:42):
Allen's for a few years as hehad had political trouble with
Jack Allen son, Walter Walterhad effectively knocked foster
from the Democratic ticket andthen foster switches parties and
goes on the on the Republicanticket. As far as that kind of
stuff goes, it's not reallysuper, super important to this.
(22:03):
But you have to understand thatFoster has a bit of a hatred for
the Allens and this is this isJack Allen. This is the guy who
took a bullet across the scalphis son is he's so Jack is a
constable his son was runningfor public office on the
Democratic ticket, etc. Gotcha.
So like, like we were sayinglike there's a lot of they have
a lot of political poll in thisarea. That's why they kind of
(22:24):
just get a finger wagon slap onthe wrist and sent away. So as
momentum begins to build behindthis call for a trial, Samuels
decides it would probably bebest if he just left the state.
So this effectively causes theprosecution to lose one of their
two key witnesses. Floyd Allenagrees to take the stand
(22:47):
admitting that he may haveroughed up the Deputy Sheriff a
bit but it was on the account ofthe mistreatment of Wesley and
sit and Edwards. By this time,Floyd Allen has himself been
deputized by Judge Massey
Marissa (23:04):
really? Wow, nice.
Matthew (23:07):
So he is now working with his with Jack, to whom he
owed at least one of his fivefamily scars. So yeah, so this
is this is this is wild, wildtimes in Virginia. So during the
lead up to the trial accusationsthat Floyd and Jack Allen had
(23:27):
been threatening andintimidating witnesses begin to
come around and they're tryingto basically everyone's saying
that no one's coming forward aswitnesses to this because
everybody, every time that thereis somebody dalens will go over
there and and, you know,intimidate them or do whatever
they can to keep them fromtestifying. Of course, they deny
(23:50):
this. You know, you know, Floyd,he's on the up and up this guy.
On March 13 1912, Floyd Allenhas finally tried for the
assault, and the aiding in theescape of the Edwards brothers
and obstruction of justice orwhatever other stuff they
probably tried to throw inthere. What happened in the
(24:12):
courtroom during the trialsdiffers depending on who tells
it. Even eyewitness claims seemto as to how like the
proceedings kind of play out arevery different. So what follows
is as best of the stories I cancobble together the courtroom is
(24:32):
packed with spectators andsupporters of both parties.
Sidna and Claude Alain Claude isthe son of Floyd. They stand on
benches in the northeasterncorner of the courtroom. This
giving them a better view overthe trial as well as being above
the crowd so they can kind ofsee to the front holding a
(24:53):
similar vantage point along thenorthern wall where the were the
Edwards brothers, Wesley andSedna At the back of the
courtroom was a man named frailAllen F r i e, l. I say that
real I don't know frill, frail,whatever. So that's another
Allen one of the cousins is upagainst the back of it. So you
(25:16):
kind of think like a long two ofthe walls. If you have if it's
like a square room Yes. againsttwo of the walls are all Alan's
Edwards, the judge judge Massey,who was the one who deputized.
Floyd is presiding over it.
Okay. And Sheriff Webb is thethe Sheriff of the town at this
(25:38):
point. And or the countysheriff's are over counties. So
judge Massey is the guy whobrought who deputy deputized
Floyd Allen and Sheriff Webb isthe guy who brought in Floyd
Allen for for this. Foster isalso there. And he's the guy who
was pushing for this this wholetime. Both Massey and judge
(25:58):
Massey and Sheriff Webb hadconfided in others that they
were concerned that the Allenswould cause trouble if the jury
didn't bring back a verdict thatthey wanted. I feel like that's,
that's a that's a good that's agood fear to have.
Marissa (26:17):
Yeah, definitely.
Matthew (26:18):
Yeah. These guys are wildcards. So this feeling was
shared by other officials aswell. Yeah. And because of this
many chemed armed the Allen'sguess what they also came armed?
Because in 1912, I guesscarrying guns in courtrooms
seems logical, like, like opencarrying, like, oh, yeah, that
(26:42):
just whatever. Okay. It's funnyto think that some people are
still like, in the belief thathaving a gun is a form of like
everyday protection, like, tothe point where you should just
like, bring it to the courtroom.
Like, there's still people whoblame who like, think like you
should always be packing andjust I don't know, it's weird. I
(27:02):
don't know. I just I. I'm notgoing to get on the soapbox
about gun control. But it's justweird. It's just weird. Like, if
everybody has a gun, a lot ofpeople get shot. That's what
that's what I think. If you justassume that if somebody has a
gun, they're probably notsupposed to have a gun. I feel
like you just make a safersociety.
Marissa (27:21):
Well, let's see what happens here. Well,
Matthew (27:26):
the jury enters the room. Spectators and officials
shifting in their seats wait forthe verdict. The jury presents
guilty. And they sentence FloydAllen to one year in jail. Oh
no. eyes begin to shift aroundthe courtroom to gauge reactions
before coming to Floyd Allen,
Marissa (27:45):
way worse than one day or one hour. Well, he
Matthew (27:48):
had said that he would never spend one minute in
prison. As long as there wasblood in his veins. I like to
think that Floyd kind of likerubs his palms on the armrest of
the chair, the room silentawaiting his reaction. Judge
Massey straightens in his chairmaking eye contact with Floyd
who he himself had deputized andopens his mouth to speak and
(28:09):
Floyd growls out before thejudge can pass the sentence and
this is a quote. If you sentenceme I will kill you. Oh. Massey
takes his measure and says Mr.
Allen, sentenced up to one yearin prison. Floyd rocks in his
chair, straightening his tie.
His eyes are cast downward Forthe briefest contemplative
(28:30):
moment before he stands, walks afew feet and says, tell you I
ain't going at which time hecatches the eye of of the
sheriff who holding one handbehind his back throws Floyd a
taunting wink. What happens nextis kind of like a grito Hohen
moment.
Marissa (28:48):
Everybody has a gun.
Don't be taunting people, and hejust
Matthew (28:51):
gave him a wink. So we don't know. We don't know
exactly what happens. But like Isaid, it's kind of like a grito
Han who shot first moment butthe courtroom erupts in gunfire.
Floyd is shot by the clerk ofcourt and he drops to the ground
on top of his own defense lawyerwho says Get off me they're
gonna kill me trying to get toyou. So he struggles to crawl
(29:12):
away fearing that he's going tobe killed by somebody shooting
at Floyd. Floyd scramblestowards the exit before being
held up by that's being likeheld by Sedna. The rest of the
clan make their escape as wellfiring as they do. A total of
more than 50 rounds were fired.
damn true to his word. JudgeMassey lay dead along with
(29:33):
Sheriff Webb and the juryforeman Augustus Fowler.
Marissa (29:42):
Thank the islands kind of think the Allen's kind of got
the upper hand.
Matthew (29:46):
Yeah, and others were injured in the exchange but
don't miss the list of peoplewho died. Like I don't people
argue over who shot first butthe only people who died were
the sheriff who brought FloydAllen in In the jury who read
the verdict, the judge whopassed the sentence and a 19
year old woman who was who wasto stand as witness for on the
(30:08):
side of the prosecution,
Marissa (30:10):
that's what I mean.
They got the upper hand forsure. Yeah.
Matthew (30:12):
Four people died. Yeah.
All of which were the peoplethat will should have been
targeted by
Marissa (30:17):
last name Alan. Yeah.
Matthew (30:19):
Floyd was the only Allen who was actually injured
in this. The woman who was shotwho was the witness, she was
shot in the back while fleeingthe courtroom. kind of seems
like they planned their targetsin this one, right. So this was
definitely like a spur of themoment. Vengeance is at hand
kind of thing. So the wound thatFloyd had sustained during the
(30:43):
firefight had shattered his hip,making it impossible for him to
flee too far. So he ends upgoing to the hotel aided by his
son until authorities find them.
He attempts to slit his ownthroat with his pocket knife.
His own throat. Yeah, butthey're able to wrestle it away
from him before he can do pocketknife. Yeah, it's all he had. He
(31:03):
had a he had a shattered hip anda pocket knife. No,
Marissa (31:09):
I'm just I'm just thinking about the the his
mental state trying to do thatwith a pocket knife. Not gonna
spend one god damn man. I mean,I get it. But man, that's hard
to. Yeah, I would imagine that'dbe very difficult to actually
do.
Matthew (31:22):
I'm sure he keeps keeps his knife sharp. Still, it's not
it's not a very long knife. Soat this time, in 1912, in the
Commonwealth of Virginia, if thesheriff died, all of his
deputies lose their recognizedpower. Oh, so he's no longer a
deputy. Yeah, but there's nodeputies in the county. So when
(31:45):
Sheriff Webb draws his lastbreath, Carroll County lost its
police force. Yikes. At thistime when a police force, yeah,
right. At this time when apolice force can't handle the
situation. And in 1912,Virginia, who you're going to
call the Baldwin felts to tellGod That's right. Coming in hot
(32:08):
on the trail, the Allen gangguys the Baldwin felts detective
agency, and they were able toapprehend the fleeing family
within about a month all of themthat were there, sitting down
and we claim until the day thathe died that Wesley Edwards his
fiancee had actually taken abribe from from the Baldwin
(32:29):
shells of $500 to rat them out.
And there's most of that most ofthe theories around how they
were actually all rounded up,all kinds of linked back to her
or her father, who didn't likeWesley. So, but anyways, they
get found out, they get they getnabbed and each of the family
(32:49):
members would be tried at thecourthouse. And of course, if
you if you guys don't remember,the Baldwin felts from the coal
Wars episode, they they ranroughshod over Yeah. For people
all the time. They were theywere they were a group of bad
dudes. So, I mean, what thereputation they had in 1912. If
(33:12):
you see the Baldwin feltsshowing up, you're probably just
gonna be like, we're good. Okay,let's see, reputation precedes
Yeah, we are. We're good. So Iguess we got caught. Ha, yeah.
So So Sidna Allen, said that hewas not responsible for any of
the deaths. He said he had onlyfired at at the clerk of the
deputy clerk and the deputysheriff, who were there. So he
(33:36):
he said he that he couldn't betried for murder because he
unloaded hit all five of hisrounds at the guy who shot Floyd
and another deputy sheriff. Sohe would be found guilty of
various crimes associated withthe Hillsville courthouse
shootout, a shootout, and he wassentenced to 35 years in prison.
(33:57):
During which time, his house wasconfiscated. The sit down and
house, his wife and daughterswere being forced off of the
property and were forced into arental at the rental property.
While in prison, Sidney Allenwas granted special privileges
and workshop hours where he wasable to like pick up tiny scraps
(34:20):
of wood and and off cuts to makesome remarkable pieces of
beautiful furniture thatactually
Marissa (34:28):
still exist. Or can you see them? You
Matthew (34:31):
can see it at the courthouse a Hillsville Oh,
really? Yeah, I'm pretty surethat's I think they have a
museum there now that actuallyhas, so you can see it online
too. I'll link some pictures.
But it's really cool becauseit's made from just little
pieces of wood that he's that hehad to just cut like they
weren't giving them like theyasked pieces you know, but it's
really nice it's really cool.
That's pretty cool. So said
Marissa (34:49):
he was good with woodworking. Yeah,
Matthew (34:51):
and that was really what I mean cuz that's when I
found his furniture stuff. I waslike, Oh, wow, he's like, he's
real good. Victor and BarnetAllen were present at the
courthouse massacre. But theydid not actually participate.
They were actually outside andclaimed that they never entered
the building so they don't theywere caught and rounded up with
(35:12):
with by the by the by the agencybut they get released. The
Edwards branch of the family wasfound guilty of second degree
murder, and each of themreceived 18 years in prison.
Well, Jack Allen, who wasn'tpresident at this time, he would
end up losing his job as aconstable and eventually his
(35:36):
life because of this Hillsvillecourthouse massacre. He was
removed from his position asconstable and then later he was
got into a heated confrontationover the events that took place
in the courtroom. Just you know,just somebody talking shit, you
know, not like it wasn't like,it was just somebody talking
(35:58):
shit trying to get his goat. Andapparently it worked. gunfight.
Jack dies. Floyd and his sonClaude, were both found guilty
and sentenced to death. Floydopenly wept during the
sentencing. Floyd would meet hisfate on March 28 1913, in
(36:18):
Richmond, Virginia. His sonClaude, would follow 11 minutes
later both by electric chair
Marissa (36:29):
I was gonna ask
Matthew (36:31):
and that kind of concludes the story of Floyd
Allen and what would become theAllen gang another courthouse
shooting in Appalachia, whichalso the courthouse shooting
that was part of the of the ofthe Cold War's also featured a
said Well, yeah, but yeah, I'mjust saying it's, it's, it's a
(36:54):
courthouse shooting, featuring aCID the Baldwin felts detective
agency and happens within100 100 miles of each other. And
only a few years like that'sjust it's just weird. So I'll
times it yes, it's crazy. So ifyou're interested in the Sydney
Allen house, they like I saidthey had recently begun opening
(37:17):
up tours it's free.
Marissa (37:19):
Yeah, it is. There's a Facebook page it's got more
details about like when theyoffer these tours and stuff
Matthew (37:24):
like that to and they sell the T shirts for like 20
bucks for a long sleeve t shirtwe didn't get to see what they
were we could see them sittingon the table and guess this is
probably to raise funds tocomplete the restoration of the
houses interior because like Isaid, there's just like a couple
of rooms that are pretty muchempty and then there's another
room that was just full ofdebris like it looked like all
(37:45):
the wood that they had beenpulling up but in its time you
can really tell that that was aspectacularly nice and there's a
lot of really cool littledetails around like the the
gables and stuff like that.
Marissa (37:55):
wraparound porch.
Matthew (37:56):
Yep. So and it also has like a little what the lady said
while we were there because likeI said, there was a couple of
like reenactment people thatwere there. One look just like
Floyd Allen from the pictures.
He had the big ass mustache andhe Yeah, but anyways, but they
had said that they have like theupstairs is now open as well.
And it has like something,something to do with the
(38:17):
courthouse up there. So that'sthat's kind of cool. Anyway, so
check it out. And now let's seewhat Marissa has for this week's
McCobb minute.
Marissa (38:29):
decapitation, or death by beheading has often been used
as a form of punishment formillennia, often by sword but
later refined with the key ateam. And today the only country
that still actively practicesbeheading as a form of capital
punishment is Saudi Arabia. InFrance, it was seen as a more
humane form of punishment asit's quick and thought to be
(38:50):
painless. And that's why theydid the key a team because it
was just a more effective way ofkilling somebody that they
thought would be just quicker,less painful, you know, but
there have been instances, evenresearch done to find out just
how quick it actually is and howlong it actually takes to lose
consciousness. There have beentales throughout at least the
(39:14):
past few centuries, aboutsevered heads, changing their
facial expression after death,seemingly confused in pain or
even grieving from what justhappened to them. Henry the
Eighth second wife and Anberlinwas decapitated in 1536 and her
head was held up rightafterward. Onlookers claimed
they saw that the Queen's lipswere moving for a while trying
(39:36):
to say something. A couple ofcenturies later, a woman named
Charlotte cor de, she'dassassinated a revolutionary
leader and she was sentenced tobe executed. And so she was
condemned to die via guillotine.
And after the blade drops, theexecutioner held her hand up and
slapped each cheek to showdisrespect toward her and
(39:56):
supposedly Her cheeks flushedand she looked enraged at the
insult. I don't believe I don'tbuy the flushing at all. But
Matthew (40:07):
yeah, because that's a blood thing. Yeah.
Marissa (40:08):
But she she had this look on her face that she was
insulted.
Matthew (40:12):
Yeah, I think wasn't the wasn't the, the inventor of
the guillotine? Wasn't he alsoguillotined?
Marissa (40:19):
I don't know.
Matthew (40:20):
Thank you was and there was another guy I met it might
have been him. But there wassomebody who went and he said
that he would blink repeatedly.
Marissa (40:26):
I have that. Yeah.
Matthew (40:28):
That you're done, sir.
Marissa (40:29):
Nope. In 1905, a French physician attended an execution
and stood close by theguillotine, where he grabbed a
man's head immediately after anexecution. He called the man's
name twice. And he claimed thatthe heads eyelids lifted each
time and met his gaze. The thirdtime it did not prompting the
man to record that the head hadprobably remained conscious from
(40:52):
somewhere between 25 to 30seconds after decapitation. But
yes, he called his name and thehead blinked and looked up at
him twice.
Matthew (41:00):
Yeah, it seems you unless your body goes into
shock. I mean, I don't see why.
It wouldn't. You know what Imean? Like, like, I feel like
you would have a few seconds ofconscious you've got to like,
why would you not? Yeah,
Marissa (41:15):
I mean, until the the blood supply completely drains
out, then or the oxygen youknow, it goes away, then. You've
got that still? Yeah,
Matthew (41:23):
I mean, it's the same thing. Like I mean, it's I think
you would probably remainconscious as long as you as if
you were being strangled. Youknow, if someone was just
throttling you to death, youhave a few you have a little
bit, you know, like I'm talkinglike, real hard throttling, not
like, like you're working to doit, but just like instantly
trying to cut this the bloodcirculation off to the head, it
(41:44):
still takes a few seconds. Yeah.
Marissa (41:46):
And 1989, an Army veteran reported after a car
accident, that his friend whohad been decapitated his face,
or his head had landed in hislap, and he could see his face
and he said, he watched theexpression on his friend's head
changed from shock and confusionto terror and grief. A couple of
studies on rats were able torecord electrical activity in
(42:08):
their brains for about fourseconds after decapitation in
one study. And other oneactually showed activity in the
brain for 10 to 15 seconds. Sothe brain
Matthew (42:17):
that's such a fucked up thing.
Marissa (42:19):
I know, like
Matthew (42:20):
capitate the cavitate animals and see how long the
brain
Marissa (42:24):
fuck dude, they've done it. Yeah, I'm sure
Matthew (42:27):
they do all kinds of shit to
Marissa (42:30):
completely agree with you. But it seems, let me think
about it. The brain feels notrauma when it happens. So the
brain is fine, at least for youknow, a few seconds. And then it
just takes a few seconds for theconsciousness to catch up to
what happened to the body. Andit's really scary. If you think
about it. Oh, yeah, for sure.
You know, can you imagine? Imean, I can't imagine but like
(42:52):
if if your head were to get cutoff, like right now, you
wouldn't know what was going onat first, but then you'd realize
something was wrong. And thenyou'd be able to see maybe your
body even and you'd be like, Ohmy god. So you'd be aware of
what was happening until hefinally did die?
Matthew (43:08):
Yeah, you would just suddenly just see it hit the
ground. You would you would, youknow, you would see yourself hit
the ground. It'd be crazy. Yeah,I I understand why they don't do
like a block instead of a blade,because the Gallagher effect and
it just fucking melon splashesyou, the audience with that, but
(43:30):
you think maybe.
Marissa (43:32):
Well, there's a lot of changes that go on wrong, too.
Yeah, but
Matthew (43:35):
you think like instead of having like, instead of
having a blade, you have like abig ass heavy wedge that goes
that drops on the actual skullto crush the skull rather than
decapitation? Because I really Idon't, I don't see how you could
unless again, unless it's shock,your body actually goes into
(43:57):
instantaneous shock. I don't seehow I don't see how you would
not be aware for at least a fewseconds, which those seconds
would be so long, longest. Oh mygod. Anyways.
Marissa (44:11):
Yeah, I mean, it's not practiced anywhere except Saudi
Arabia now. So
Matthew (44:14):
what science where it is? Come on, we should be able
to get some studies done onthat. Yeah. on humans. Leave the
mice alone.
Marissa (44:24):
I don't think they're going to be doing that on
humans. Oh, well.
Matthew (44:28):
I know. Well, that's what you know. That's why, if
you check out the PsychopathTest on our Patreon, I come out
as the most psychotic becauseI'm like, Nah, leave the animals
alone. Condemned criminals, youknow, science.
Marissa (44:45):
So you're saying to just drop a heavy boulder on
their head? Well, yeah,
Matthew (44:49):
ordain what Yeah, well, I think that's more humane. I
don't see how blunt force thisthe same argument of what we had
with the back end of the axe, itstuns you
Marissa (44:59):
I get what you're Are Saying I just I can see, first
of all the the amount of effortthey'd have to put into, you
know, having something superheavy high up and then drop in
the exact right spot. Lots ofways I can go wrong if it hits
it just slightly off, then you
Matthew (45:12):
just make it so you don't have to worry about not
getting multiple blows, likeindustrial hammer kind of show,
but like we're talking today,
Marissa (45:21):
we could do it but back in the day.
Matthew (45:23):
I'm talking now I'm talking now. Like,
Marissa (45:26):
we just use chemicals.
Sometimes Yeah,
Matthew (45:29):
yeah. Mostly. I'm not necessarily getting into an
argument of for against thedeath but no, I'm just saying
I'm for the death penalty. Okay,but I am but I'm not because
honestly, I think that in a lotof cases being being forced to
live with that there are fatesworse than death, for sure. For
(45:51):
sure. But anyways, I digress.
Marissa (45:55):
Being forced to see your body as you slowly lose
consciousness. That's prettybad.
Matthew (46:00):
That's very bad. But yeah, anyways, I just I think
that I think that blunt forcetrauma is is more humane than
than not. Anyways, thank you forlistening. Special thanks to our
patrons for helping us keep thisendeavor going. If you would
like to help support the show,you can head over to Patreon and
(46:23):
join up it is only $5. We have acouple of short stories journal
entries formulae for figuringout the impact velocity of a
vehicle hitting a person orother fleshy object. Also a
couple of extra episodes,including the Psychopath Test
that we took. And speaking ofsupport, we would like to direct
(46:45):
you to a link in the show noteswhere you can donate to the Make
a Wish charity. Alexis is afriend of ours who is taking up
a challenge to raise money forthe Make a Wish Foundation. And
it's an organization that helpschildren battling with cancer to
partake in some kind of liketrip, adventure or memorable
(47:07):
experience while they undergocancer treatments. This year,
Alexis is taking on a 28 milemountain hike through the
northern part of South Carolinato raise money and awareness for
the charity. It is not an easyhike. but it pales in comparison
to what these people who aregoing to these these cancer
treatments in their family gothrough. So if you can toss a
(47:30):
few duckets that way, that wouldbe appreciated. Her hike is
October 1 2022. If you'relistening to this after that
day, and you still want todonate, you still can, you don't
have to wait until the nextheight event or anything like
that. You can donate at anytime. They even have options to
donate funds that help out justlike local, local children as
(47:51):
well. Anyways, thank you forlistening, that link will be in
the show notes. If you want toreach out to us or see our
pictures that we took at theSydney Allen house, you can
follow us on Twitter andFacebook at Macabrepedia.
Marissa (48:06):
We're also on Instagram at Macabrepediapod. And you can
reach us on email for atmacabrepediapod@gmail.com. And
please if you haven't alreadydone so leave us a review. If
you're listening on Apple'sApple podcast or Spotify or
wherever you have the option ofleaving a review,
Matthew (48:22):
review, comment, share by word of mouth whatever you
can. It really helps us out andthey can tell your friends about
my opinions on the deathpenalty.
Marissa (48:34):
Oh yeah, definitely do that.
Matthew (48:36):
That's the selling point. Thank you as always and
join us next week as we addanother entry into this our
Macabrepedia
Macabrepedia makes light of dark subject matter and
(00:02):
may not be suitable for allaudiences. Listener discretion
is advised.
Matthew (00:13):
On a somewhat empty stretch of highway 52 next to a
scattering of flea markets andfarmland through fancy gapped
Virginia rest Carroll County'smost beautifully designed home
the paint flakes from the sidingand shutters sure the roof
shingles could use replacingaround the porches gazebo. But
the white columns and artfullycarved filigree remain to stand
(00:35):
as proof to its magnificentagainst 100 plus years of time.
The house was designed and builtby the man who dreamed of one
day living there. But as aresult of three wrongful death
lawsuits brought against theowner of the house. The home was
seized by the state on behalf ofthe families of those who died.
(00:57):
It was rented out for the nextfive years before two defense
attorneys, Nicholas P. ogilbyand Robert P. Bruce bought it
and continued its use as aboarding house. These defense
lawyers once represented the manwho built the house Sidna Allen,
one of the men who headed whatwould sometimes be referred to
(01:20):
as the Allen gang. Join us as weadd another entry into this our
Macabrepedia.
Marissa (01:33):
Hello, and welcome to Macabrepedia a marriage of true
crown the truly bizarre. We'reyour hosts Marissa and Matthew.
And today we're bringing you astory for something that we just
kind of happened upon. While wewere on my way to my cousin's
wedding.
Matthew (01:48):
Yeah, we were driving by we were driving into fancy
get Virginia, right. And it'sjust right off of 77 which
stretches for forever. And whilewe're driving by Marissa was
driving and we see this likereally beautiful little white
house not that little it standsout. It definitely stands out.
It is very, it is very differentthan everything else around
(02:10):
it's, there's, like I said inthe opening, there's like a
little there's like a littleflea market, kind of like, you
know, tin garage sale kind ofthing happening there. And it's
there's like variety shops and alittle gas station and the rest
is like just like farmland andpastures. Right? Yeah. But in
front of this house, is a signthat I had jokingly said, as we
(02:34):
drove up to it, that house orthat sign in front of that house
looks like the same sign as infront of the Valeska house
murderers. Little did you know,yeah, so while we while we're
continuing up the road, I justdecided to just, you know, throw
it into into a wiki search. Andlo and behold, there it is
associated to some murders, notthe house itself. But the guy
(02:57):
who built it said and Alan, hewas no stranger to run ins with
law enforcement at the time. Andthe story is not really much
about Sidna nor the house. Butthat's the story in which we
came upon this. And I'm certainthat the expensive wood and
stained glass windows werelikely funded, at least in part
(03:19):
by some less than legalactivities, which the quote
unquote Allen gang were accused,Sidney Allen, he never really
had much of a chance to properlysettle into the house with his
wife and two daughters. You see,he would be on the run shortly
after the construction wascompleted for
Marissa (03:40):
relief because it's a beautiful house.
Matthew (03:41):
Yeah. And he did partake and he did participate
in the actual construction ofit. It's not like he did it by
himself or anything like that.
There was other people involvedbut he designed to he's a hell
of a woodworker. For sure. Andthere it's the house is
currently still going throughsome like renovation or
reconstruction. Right.
(04:04):
Restoration that's got that's abetter word. going in through
some some restoration at the atthis time. And we had stopped by
just last July. You yesterday,whatever. This was on our way
back. This is not from thewedding, but we were kind of we
knew that this was coming up. Sowe wanted to go ahead and snap a
few photos of it. And theyactually had just recently
opened it up to tours. They'reonly from what we just miss.
(04:25):
Yeah, they were like, one 1pm to4pm. On the weekend, Monday or
the first weekend, first weekendof the month there Yeah, so some
silly and but like it's onlylike two rooms and they're
mostly empty. There's like acouch, two couches in one room.
And then there's like a picnictable with some long sleeve
shirts. And then they said thatthey opened up the upstairs for
(04:46):
a reconstruction of of some ofthe courthouse that will later
play a part in the story. But itwas also cool too because they
did it. The two people who werethere doing the tour at this
time, they were dressed inperiod, garb and one Have them
looked like the man who's goingto take up the larger share of
the story Floyd Allen. FloydAllen was born in 1856. He and
(05:11):
his brothers were known to getinto some trouble in their youth
fights and minor crime scenecommonplace when the when the
Alan boys were around. Floyd waswell liked by neighbors
throughout Carroll County,Virginia. He owned a good bit of
land and was one of the fewpeople him and his and his
brothers were some of the fewpeople who actually had like
(05:32):
proper alcohol licensing so theycould produce alcohol. Later
they get into some trouble orsome moonshine run. I don't know
exactly what the what the whatthe ins and outs of their
licensing was. But that's herenor there. Floyd and his
brothers were generous to thosewho did right by them, but their
(05:53):
fuses burned pretty quick whenthey were lit. Floyd had
multiple violent charges broughtagainst him by the late 1880s,
including multiple shootings,one of which was a cousin of
his. He had also been sought forbattering a police officer, his
brothers, Sidna and Garland hadbeen tried for assaulting a
group of 13 men who the hellthat gunpoint all the charges
(06:16):
would be reduced to little morethan a stern finger wagging by
the Commonwealth's attorney. Inthe book, a courtroom massacre,
politics and public sentiment inprogressive era Virginia.
Journal of southern history byRandall Hall would quote Judge
Robert C. Jackson, saying FloydAllen was perhaps the worst man
(06:38):
of the clan, overbearing,vindictive, high tempered,
brutal and no respect for lawand little or no regard for
human life. During my term ofoffice, Floyd Allen, was several
times charged with violations oflaw. In several instances he
escaped indictment. I amsatisfied because the witnesses
(06:58):
were afraid to testify in thefacts before the grand jury.
Lucky for Judge Jackson, hewouldn't preside over the future
cases involving the Allen clan.
In that same text, Jackson wouldrecount a dispute over land
purchasing. As an example, Floydwas attempting to purchase a
stretch of land at a reducedprice. When another buyer no
(07:18):
combs offered to buy the landfor the asking price. Floyd told
combs to back out of the deal.
When combs proceeded with thepurchase, well flood shot him
and it's the land the houses onno Floyd is the Floyd is the
elder brother of cydnus. Right?
So Floyd shoots but Floyd owns abunch of land in Carroll County.
(07:43):
Floyd shoots combs and combs waswounded, though he didn't die
from his injury. Luckily for forFloyd, but he was indicted and
tried with assault. He wasconvicted and sentenced to
paying $100 fine and deserve onehour in jail for the shooting.
Marissa (08:04):
Well, all right. That's not much.
Matthew (08:08):
Just like you could shoot somebody, it's 100 bucks,
which I guess $100 At that time,would it be what six D was or
20? Was 600. So five times that?
Be like six what? Shit? I'm toostupid to do math.
Marissa (08:25):
I'm too tired to do math. So we'll just say it's a
lot of money. It's
Matthew (08:29):
a shit. What the fuck is six times?
Marissa (08:34):
Six times what? I don't even know. See, this is why I
can't do it.
Matthew (08:39):
So $100 At that time, but basically after taking a an
excruciating amount of time todo very simple math having to
break out a calculator here.
It'd be about $3,000 Give ortake. All right. So anyway, so
it's like a $3,000 fine and anhour an hour doesn't have
inflation in it. So an hour it'sa literal an hour in prison like
what? What kind of sentencing isthat? Well, Floyd answers this
(09:01):
and says, I ain't spending onedamn minute in jail.
Marissa (09:07):
Come on, man. This is the best. This is the best
solution you can hope for right?
Matthew (09:13):
He immediately puts up a post bail just immediately
just pays it pays to find postbail. Later when summoned back
to court because he was he wasposted bail until an appeal was
made. So he was he was supposedto be out of out of out of court
until the appeal. When theappeal time came Floyd shows up
(09:33):
with an order from the governorto suspend his sentence.
Marissa (09:38):
Are they buds or something? Yeah, they there's
the
Matthew (09:40):
Allen clan has quite a bit of Yeah, the Allen clan has
a bunch of political ties thereand there this is like a lot of
places like this particularly inlike Appalachia and stuff like
families root in there and theystay there and you know, they
just they In the familycontinues to branch and branch
(10:02):
and branch and branch. So theydig in. So there's only a
handful of families that aregenerally in most of these
haulers and whatnot and aroundthere. So there's so most most
of them are all kids so they'reall kind of connected in some
way or another and I'm notsaying that they're not they're
not they're not blood related tothe Governor or anything like
that. But I know a guy who knowsguy knows a guy and eventually
(10:22):
gets to the point where youdon't have to spend an hour in
jail. Also, it's an hour in jaillike the governor just be like,
I don't give a shit. Like stopshoot people. That's an hour.
Why was it whatever I don'tcare.
Marissa (10:37):
time served. Yeah. So he, so Floyd,
Matthew (10:40):
he, like I said, no stranger to violence, no
stranger to runs in with withwith the law. One one run in
with a law was a gunfight withhis brother Jack over his
father's estate. Jack was thelocal constable. Oh, no. Yeah.
The two exchanged volley ofbullets, one striking Jack along
(11:00):
the scalp and the other takenFloyd in the chest. When the
bullets ran out. Floyd then tooktwo beating his brother.
Marissa (11:06):
He took a bullet hole in his chest.
Matthew (11:08):
Yeah. And he just he just laid into it just got on
him and just started wailing onhim. So in like, I don't know,
Jack took a bullet to the headand it just ricocheted across
his scalp and hard headed. Yeah,hard headed. So Floyd, he gets
arrested, and he's fined $100.
And an hour in jail. To whichFloyd says Not while there is a
(11:30):
lick of blood in these veins amI spending one minute in jail?
And he did not in fact serve oneminute in jail for the assault.
I assume that Jack muscle likelet it go. So it's actually said
that Floyd had 13 bullet woundsscars in his body five of which
(11:52):
were inflicted back in some goodol Appalachian these guys are
they they? I feel like yeah,like crazy. So to kind of touch
back on on Sidna Allen, thebrother at the top of the story.
He was also tried for a handfulof crimes, including an arrest
(12:15):
in 1910 for producingcounterfeit coins that were
there. $20 gold coins. I keep inmind, that's a $623 in 2022.
This math I did ahead of time,that's what screwed me up with
the initial math. I think theywere like,
Marissa (12:32):
I wondered how you just automatically were like, Oh, $20
is $600. Now Yeah,
Matthew (12:37):
I just don't I can do inflation. I just can't take
that inflation and multiply itby five. So anyways, so he, he
gets these. I think they're goldcoins from when I could figure
out the $20 coin in the US was a$20 coin.
Marissa (12:51):
It's a lot of money to be carrying around as a coin at
that time. It's worth
Matthew (12:57):
it. Yeah. So but yeah, so I'm thinking he had like
counterfeit gold or somethingthat he was pressing into into
these coins, but then they'dstopped being in circulation in
like the 1930s. If it's the samething I don't I was looking for
something to put in there tolike, if you said a $20 coin in
us, what we don't have 20. Soanyway, he certainly doesn't sit
(13:21):
in it doesn't seem to have quitethe level of golf that Floyd,
his older brother did. But theAllen family tree, like I said,
it's got branches, and thosebranches are still held firm by
the roots of the same tree ofFloyd Allen. So cousins of the
Alan's were the Edwards andafter a brawl at a local church,
(13:44):
where Wesley Edwards was caughtsmooching, another another's
best gal, while a fight brokeout as things tend to do in such
cases. This fight was joined byother members of the Edwards
clan, including Wesley'sbrother, a man bearing a
seemingly common family name,Sidna. This is Sedna Edwards.
(14:06):
The fight got pretty intense,and the Edward boys were sought
after by the law. So boys beingboys and fearing to face the
consequences of their actions.
They ran for the North CarolinaState Line, which is
Marissa (14:18):
not far from fancy capitol. No, no, it's a hop skip
and a jump.
Matthew (14:23):
And there's actually a lot of the trouble that the
Allen's had with some some someof Floyd's other shootings, they
all happen in like Mount Airy,and in the Greensboro area, so
yeah, so it seems like they,when they were when they were
causing real mischief, they wereoff they went a little further
south, you know, so becauseVirginia is a commonwealth and
(14:47):
it seems like they had reallystrong state lines, like as far
as like, we're jurisdictions andstuff like that. So you could go
you could go raise housesomewhere else and it wasn't
gonna wasn't going to be such abig deal. So Oh, the Edwards
boys, Wesley and Sedna. Theythey run for the border, and
they get new jobs, like a quarryor something. And they plan to
(15:10):
possibly make new lives or atleast hold up until things
cooled down back in Virginia.
Before long, the Edwards boyswere found out and then arrested
at their work in North Carolina.
And there was an exchange thatwas supposed to happen anyways.
So they're they were broughtback to the North Carolina and
(15:31):
Virginia border, and they werehanded off to Deputy Sheriff
Thomas Samuels and his buggydriver, Peter Easter. The two
AdWords brothers were tied intothe back of the buggy sidan
Edwards had previously been ahigh flight risk. So he was also
(15:51):
handcuffed to the front seat bythe only pair of handcuffs that
the deputy apparently thought totake with them. So you got
Wesley, I don't know if he'slike how much he's tied. He may
very well be just hogtied in theback of this buggy. And then
there's, and then you got Sedna,who's also tied, but he's also
(16:15):
handcuffed to behind the driver.
And so the deputy and Easterthey head back into Carroll
County, with their prisoners.
Now, this story serves a fewpurposes this little branching
off here. One is to show thatmore than just Floyd and Sidney
Allen had scrapes with the law.
As the rest of the extendedfamily seems to also have it.
(16:36):
The Edwards had their issues.
The Edwards brothers were alsoto be present at a later event.
So we had to pull them in now tokind of show you why they do
what they do. So now, as Imentioned, Floyd Allen, he owned
a good bit of land in CarrollCounty, so much in fact that
these prisoners had to be takenthrough Floyd's land. And
(17:00):
wouldn't you know, Floyd waswaiting on him. seems not much
happens around Carroll Countywithout old Floyd knowing about
especially if it involves hisfamily. These deputies they ride
up along a spanner Floyd'sproperty and Floyd takes his
horse and rides up to greetthem. And when he gets close
enough to see Wesley tied up andSidna cough to the to the to the
(17:23):
seat, he tells the deputiesrelease them to get rid of them
bonds later claiming that whenhe said that to release them, he
literally meant to untie themlike not to like let them
Marissa (17:39):
let me guess they let them go. Well, now
Matthew (17:42):
the deputy deputy Samuels he pulls a gun and
points it at Floyd Allen andthat's not at all what was
meant. And he tells him to goon. So Florida, he heads on a
little bit and he gets to a partof the road next to sit Allen's
he said own to store. So but inorder to get past and this road
(18:06):
it kind of narrows down so saidhe doesn't take particularly
kindly to the refusal. So herides up and then he uses his
horse to block the road. So thedeputy comes up to this, the
only place that he can go withthis with his buggy. This is a
horse drawn carriageeffectively, right? So that's
(18:27):
what the buggy is. And thedeputy he levels his gun at
Floyd again. Floyd doesn't backdown. He instead he just
dismounts and whether he'sbelieving that he's had 13
bullet wounds already and onemore isn't going to do much more
than cement his legendaryconstitution, or that he's just
confident that the deputy isn'tgoing to pull the trigger or
(18:47):
that he's just a bad shot. Thisis all unclear, but he moves
towards the vehicle and thedeputy lowers his gun has long
arm either because it may havemisfired or because he already
knew that the gun wasn'tactually functional. This is
partly unclear but he goes for asidearm and Floyd seeing this
(19:08):
realizes that the likelihood ofbeing shot is greatly
increasing. Sure. So he lungestowards Samuel disarm the the
man, the deputy and then pistolwhips the shit out of us. And he
said he's beaten the hell out ofout of the deputy Easter taking
pulls a gun and he takes a fewlicks himself. He then decides
(19:31):
he wants nothing to do with thisencounter with Floyd. So he
takes off and starts runningaway to try to call for help.
Floyd unties his nephews and thethree head back towards said
Alan's house.
Marissa (19:44):
You want Floyd on your side?
Matthew (19:46):
Oh yeah, he's a bad yeah, I mean, he is he's a
badass but he's also an idiot.
Anyway, so he sometimes thatgoes hand in hand deputy sent
Yeah, exactly. For sure. Likewhen you don't know when you
don't know that he apparentlyhas immortal his immortality is
now Ever been disproven at thispoint so he's he's really
writing that high so any seemsto be a man of have a bit of
means for the area if he's ownsall this land yeah for sure and
(20:08):
he can keep posting $3,000 bondsall the time so are paying the
fines for shooting neighbors sothey leave. Floyd leaves the
deputy unconscious along theroadside and Floyd had actually
taken a bullet across his handduring the fight probably trying
to like pull that wrestle thegun away. This is also
presumably from Easter firing athim as Easter tried to run away
(20:32):
after cleaning the wound. Hebrings the to the to Edwards
boys this is Floyd he brings itto Edwards boys back to the
courthouse explaining he doesn'tthink they should be set free.
He just doesn't think that theyshould be hogtied. He's made he
was like I wasn't trying to getthem to like let them go. I just
don't like seeing people bemanhandled like that. Meanwhile,
(20:54):
he's he's just freed thedeputies horses or Peter, Peter
Easter's horses to go run, runrun run rampant, just free. And
then he beat the piss out of outof a police officer and left him
in a ditch and he's like I justsaid on time.
Marissa (21:12):
That's pure anarchy. So we couldn't we couldn't settle
this a lot easier.
Matthew (21:17):
Y'all just gotta come on now.
Marissa (21:20):
Got it twisted.
Matthew (21:21):
Yeah, looking at the Cross waves. So apparently
months go by and a politicaladversary to the Allen family.
William Foster. He beginspushing for a further
investigation into the into thisassault of the Deputy Sheriff
Samuel Samuels. Sorry. So Fosterhas been pushing against the
(21:42):
Allen's for a few years as hehad had political trouble with
Jack Allen son, Walter Walterhad effectively knocked foster
from the Democratic ticket andthen foster switches parties and
goes on the on the Republicanticket. As far as that kind of
stuff goes, it's not reallysuper, super important to this.
(22:03):
But you have to understand thatFoster has a bit of a hatred for
the Allens and this is this isJack Allen. This is the guy who
took a bullet across the scalphis son is he's so Jack is a
constable his son was runningfor public office on the
Democratic ticket, etc. Gotcha.
So like, like we were sayinglike there's a lot of they have
a lot of political poll in thisarea. That's why they kind of
(22:24):
just get a finger wagon slap onthe wrist and sent away. So as
momentum begins to build behindthis call for a trial, Samuels
decides it would probably bebest if he just left the state.
So this effectively causes theprosecution to lose one of their
two key witnesses. Floyd Allenagrees to take the stand
(22:47):
admitting that he may haveroughed up the Deputy Sheriff a
bit but it was on the account ofthe mistreatment of Wesley and
sit and Edwards. By this time,Floyd Allen has himself been
deputized by Judge Massey
Marissa (23:04):
really? Wow, nice.
Matthew (23:07):
So he is now working with his with Jack, to whom he
owed at least one of his fivefamily scars. So yeah, so this
is this is this is wild, wildtimes in Virginia. So during the
lead up to the trial accusationsthat Floyd and Jack Allen had
(23:27):
been threatening andintimidating witnesses begin to
come around and they're tryingto basically everyone's saying
that no one's coming forward aswitnesses to this because
everybody, every time that thereis somebody dalens will go over
there and and, you know,intimidate them or do whatever
they can to keep them fromtestifying. Of course, they deny
(23:50):
this. You know, you know, Floyd,he's on the up and up this guy.
On March 13 1912, Floyd Allenhas finally tried for the
assault, and the aiding in theescape of the Edwards brothers
and obstruction of justice orwhatever other stuff they
probably tried to throw inthere. What happened in the
(24:12):
courtroom during the trialsdiffers depending on who tells
it. Even eyewitness claims seemto as to how like the
proceedings kind of play out arevery different. So what follows
is as best of the stories I cancobble together the courtroom is
(24:32):
packed with spectators andsupporters of both parties.
Sidna and Claude Alain Claude isthe son of Floyd. They stand on
benches in the northeasterncorner of the courtroom. This
giving them a better view overthe trial as well as being above
the crowd so they can kind ofsee to the front holding a
(24:53):
similar vantage point along thenorthern wall where the were the
Edwards brothers, Wesley andSedna At the back of the
courtroom was a man named frailAllen F r i e, l. I say that
real I don't know frill, frail,whatever. So that's another
Allen one of the cousins is upagainst the back of it. So you
(25:16):
kind of think like a long two ofthe walls. If you have if it's
like a square room Yes. againsttwo of the walls are all Alan's
Edwards, the judge judge Massey,who was the one who deputized.
Floyd is presiding over it.
Okay. And Sheriff Webb is thethe Sheriff of the town at this
(25:38):
point. And or the countysheriff's are over counties. So
judge Massey is the guy whobrought who deputy deputized
Floyd Allen and Sheriff Webb isthe guy who brought in Floyd
Allen for for this. Foster isalso there. And he's the guy who
was pushing for this this wholetime. Both Massey and judge
(25:58):
Massey and Sheriff Webb hadconfided in others that they
were concerned that the Allenswould cause trouble if the jury
didn't bring back a verdict thatthey wanted. I feel like that's,
that's a that's a good that's agood fear to have.
Marissa (26:17):
Yeah, definitely.
Matthew (26:18):
Yeah. These guys are wildcards. So this feeling was
shared by other officials aswell. Yeah. And because of this
many chemed armed the Allen'sguess what they also came armed?
Because in 1912, I guesscarrying guns in courtrooms
seems logical, like, like opencarrying, like, oh, yeah, that
(26:42):
just whatever. Okay. It's funnyto think that some people are
still like, in the belief thathaving a gun is a form of like
everyday protection, like, tothe point where you should just
like, bring it to the courtroom.
Like, there's still people whoblame who like, think like you
should always be packing andjust I don't know, it's weird. I
(27:02):
don't know. I just I. I'm notgoing to get on the soapbox
about gun control. But it's justweird. It's just weird. Like, if
everybody has a gun, a lot ofpeople get shot. That's what
that's what I think. If you justassume that if somebody has a
gun, they're probably notsupposed to have a gun. I feel
like you just make a safersociety.
Marissa (27:21):
Well, let's see what happens here. Well,
Matthew (27:26):
the jury enters the room. Spectators and officials
shifting in their seats wait forthe verdict. The jury presents
guilty. And they sentence FloydAllen to one year in jail. Oh
no. eyes begin to shift aroundthe courtroom to gauge reactions
before coming to Floyd Allen,
Marissa (27:45):
way worse than one day or one hour. Well, he
Matthew (27:48):
had said that he would never spend one minute in
prison. As long as there wasblood in his veins. I like to
think that Floyd kind of likerubs his palms on the armrest of
the chair, the room silentawaiting his reaction. Judge
Massey straightens in his chairmaking eye contact with Floyd
who he himself had deputized andopens his mouth to speak and
(28:09):
Floyd growls out before thejudge can pass the sentence and
this is a quote. If you sentenceme I will kill you. Oh. Massey
takes his measure and says Mr.
Allen, sentenced up to one yearin prison. Floyd rocks in his
chair, straightening his tie.
His eyes are cast downward Forthe briefest contemplative
(28:30):
moment before he stands, walks afew feet and says, tell you I
ain't going at which time hecatches the eye of of the
sheriff who holding one handbehind his back throws Floyd a
taunting wink. What happens nextis kind of like a grito Hohen
moment.
Marissa (28:48):
Everybody has a gun.
Don't be taunting people, and hejust
Matthew (28:51):
gave him a wink. So we don't know. We don't know
exactly what happens. But like Isaid, it's kind of like a grito
Han who shot first moment butthe courtroom erupts in gunfire.
Floyd is shot by the clerk ofcourt and he drops to the ground
on top of his own defense lawyerwho says Get off me they're
gonna kill me trying to get toyou. So he struggles to crawl
(29:12):
away fearing that he's going tobe killed by somebody shooting
at Floyd. Floyd scramblestowards the exit before being
held up by that's being likeheld by Sedna. The rest of the
clan make their escape as wellfiring as they do. A total of
more than 50 rounds were fired.
damn true to his word. JudgeMassey lay dead along with
(29:33):
Sheriff Webb and the juryforeman Augustus Fowler.
Marissa (29:42):
Thank the islands kind of think the Allen's kind of got
the upper hand.
Matthew (29:46):
Yeah, and others were injured in the exchange but
don't miss the list of peoplewho died. Like I don't people
argue over who shot first butthe only people who died were
the sheriff who brought FloydAllen in In the jury who read
the verdict, the judge whopassed the sentence and a 19
year old woman who was who wasto stand as witness for on the
(30:08):
side of the prosecution,
Marissa (30:10):
that's what I mean.
They got the upper hand forsure. Yeah.
Matthew (30:12):
Four people died. Yeah.
All of which were the peoplethat will should have been
targeted by
Marissa (30:17):
last name Alan. Yeah.
Matthew (30:19):
Floyd was the only Allen who was actually injured
in this. The woman who was shotwho was the witness, she was
shot in the back while fleeingthe courtroom. kind of seems
like they planned their targetsin this one, right. So this was
definitely like a spur of themoment. Vengeance is at hand
kind of thing. So the wound thatFloyd had sustained during the
(30:43):
firefight had shattered his hip,making it impossible for him to
flee too far. So he ends upgoing to the hotel aided by his
son until authorities find them.
He attempts to slit his ownthroat with his pocket knife.
His own throat. Yeah, butthey're able to wrestle it away
from him before he can do pocketknife. Yeah, it's all he had. He
(31:03):
had a he had a shattered hip anda pocket knife. No,
Marissa (31:09):
I'm just I'm just thinking about the the his
mental state trying to do thatwith a pocket knife. Not gonna
spend one god damn man. I mean,I get it. But man, that's hard
to. Yeah, I would imagine that'dbe very difficult to actually
do.
Matthew (31:22):
I'm sure he keeps keeps his knife sharp. Still, it's not
it's not a very long knife. Soat this time, in 1912, in the
Commonwealth of Virginia, if thesheriff died, all of his
deputies lose their recognizedpower. Oh, so he's no longer a
deputy. Yeah, but there's nodeputies in the county. So when
(31:45):
Sheriff Webb draws his lastbreath, Carroll County lost its
police force. Yikes. At thistime when a police force, yeah,
right. At this time when apolice force can't handle the
situation. And in 1912,Virginia, who you're going to
call the Baldwin felts to tellGod That's right. Coming in hot
(32:08):
on the trail, the Allen gangguys the Baldwin felts detective
agency, and they were able toapprehend the fleeing family
within about a month all of themthat were there, sitting down
and we claim until the day thathe died that Wesley Edwards his
fiancee had actually taken abribe from from the Baldwin
(32:29):
shells of $500 to rat them out.
And there's most of that most ofthe theories around how they
were actually all rounded up,all kinds of linked back to her
or her father, who didn't likeWesley. So, but anyways, they
get found out, they get they getnabbed and each of the family
(32:49):
members would be tried at thecourthouse. And of course, if
you if you guys don't remember,the Baldwin felts from the coal
Wars episode, they they ranroughshod over Yeah. For people
all the time. They were theywere they were a group of bad
dudes. So, I mean, what thereputation they had in 1912. If
(33:12):
you see the Baldwin feltsshowing up, you're probably just
gonna be like, we're good. Okay,let's see, reputation precedes
Yeah, we are. We're good. So Iguess we got caught. Ha, yeah.
So So Sidna Allen, said that hewas not responsible for any of
the deaths. He said he had onlyfired at at the clerk of the
deputy clerk and the deputysheriff, who were there. So he
(33:36):
he said he that he couldn't betried for murder because he
unloaded hit all five of hisrounds at the guy who shot Floyd
and another deputy sheriff. Sohe would be found guilty of
various crimes associated withthe Hillsville courthouse
shootout, a shootout, and he wassentenced to 35 years in prison.
(33:57):
During which time, his house wasconfiscated. The sit down and
house, his wife and daughterswere being forced off of the
property and were forced into arental at the rental property.
While in prison, Sidney Allenwas granted special privileges
and workshop hours where he wasable to like pick up tiny scraps
(34:20):
of wood and and off cuts to makesome remarkable pieces of
beautiful furniture thatactually
Marissa (34:28):
still exist. Or can you see them? You
Matthew (34:31):
can see it at the courthouse a Hillsville Oh,
really? Yeah, I'm pretty surethat's I think they have a
museum there now that actuallyhas, so you can see it online
too. I'll link some pictures.
But it's really cool becauseit's made from just little
pieces of wood that he's that hehad to just cut like they
weren't giving them like theyasked pieces you know, but it's
really nice it's really cool.
That's pretty cool. So said
Marissa (34:49):
he was good with woodworking. Yeah,
Matthew (34:51):
and that was really what I mean cuz that's when I
found his furniture stuff. I waslike, Oh, wow, he's like, he's
real good. Victor and BarnetAllen were present at the
courthouse massacre. But theydid not actually participate.
They were actually outside andclaimed that they never entered
the building so they don't theywere caught and rounded up with
(35:12):
with by the by the by the agencybut they get released. The
Edwards branch of the family wasfound guilty of second degree
murder, and each of themreceived 18 years in prison.
Well, Jack Allen, who wasn'tpresident at this time, he would
end up losing his job as aconstable and eventually his
(35:36):
life because of this Hillsvillecourthouse massacre. He was
removed from his position asconstable and then later he was
got into a heated confrontationover the events that took place
in the courtroom. Just you know,just somebody talking shit, you
know, not like it wasn't like,it was just somebody talking
(35:58):
shit trying to get his goat. Andapparently it worked. gunfight.
Jack dies. Floyd and his sonClaude, were both found guilty
and sentenced to death. Floydopenly wept during the
sentencing. Floyd would meet hisfate on March 28 1913, in
(36:18):
Richmond, Virginia. His sonClaude, would follow 11 minutes
later both by electric chair
Marissa (36:29):
I was gonna ask
Matthew (36:31):
and that kind of concludes the story of Floyd
Allen and what would become theAllen gang another courthouse
shooting in Appalachia, whichalso the courthouse shooting
that was part of the of the ofthe Cold War's also featured a
said Well, yeah, but yeah, I'mjust saying it's, it's, it's a
(36:54):
courthouse shooting, featuring aCID the Baldwin felts detective
agency and happens within100 100 miles of each other. And
only a few years like that'sjust it's just weird. So I'll
times it yes, it's crazy. So ifyou're interested in the Sydney
Allen house, they like I saidthey had recently begun opening
(37:17):
up tours it's free.
Marissa (37:19):
Yeah, it is. There's a Facebook page it's got more
details about like when theyoffer these tours and stuff
Matthew (37:24):
like that to and they sell the T shirts for like 20
bucks for a long sleeve t shirtwe didn't get to see what they
were we could see them sittingon the table and guess this is
probably to raise funds tocomplete the restoration of the
houses interior because like Isaid, there's just like a couple
of rooms that are pretty muchempty and then there's another
room that was just full ofdebris like it looked like all
(37:45):
the wood that they had beenpulling up but in its time you
can really tell that that was aspectacularly nice and there's a
lot of really cool littledetails around like the the
gables and stuff like that.
Marissa (37:55):
wraparound porch.
Matthew (37:56):
Yep. So and it also has like a little what the lady said
while we were there because likeI said, there was a couple of
like reenactment people thatwere there. One look just like
Floyd Allen from the pictures.
He had the big ass mustache andhe Yeah, but anyways, but they
had said that they have like theupstairs is now open as well.
And it has like something,something to do with the
(38:17):
courthouse up there. So that'sthat's kind of cool. Anyway, so
check it out. And now let's seewhat Marissa has for this week's
McCobb minute.
Marissa (38:29):
decapitation, or death by beheading has often been used
as a form of punishment formillennia, often by sword but
later refined with the key ateam. And today the only country
that still actively practicesbeheading as a form of capital
punishment is Saudi Arabia. InFrance, it was seen as a more
humane form of punishment asit's quick and thought to be
(38:50):
painless. And that's why theydid the key a team because it
was just a more effective way ofkilling somebody that they
thought would be just quicker,less painful, you know, but
there have been instances, evenresearch done to find out just
how quick it actually is and howlong it actually takes to lose
consciousness. There have beentales throughout at least the
(39:14):
past few centuries, aboutsevered heads, changing their
facial expression after death,seemingly confused in pain or
even grieving from what justhappened to them. Henry the
Eighth second wife and Anberlinwas decapitated in 1536 and her
head was held up rightafterward. Onlookers claimed
they saw that the Queen's lipswere moving for a while trying
(39:36):
to say something. A couple ofcenturies later, a woman named
Charlotte cor de, she'dassassinated a revolutionary
leader and she was sentenced tobe executed. And so she was
condemned to die via guillotine.
And after the blade drops, theexecutioner held her hand up and
slapped each cheek to showdisrespect toward her and
(39:56):
supposedly Her cheeks flushedand she looked enraged at the
insult. I don't believe I don'tbuy the flushing at all. But
Matthew (40:07):
yeah, because that's a blood thing. Yeah.
Marissa (40:08):
But she she had this look on her face that she was
insulted.
Matthew (40:12):
Yeah, I think wasn't the wasn't the, the inventor of
the guillotine? Wasn't he alsoguillotined?
Marissa (40:19):
I don't know.
Matthew (40:20):
Thank you was and there was another guy I met it might
have been him. But there wassomebody who went and he said
that he would blink repeatedly.
Marissa (40:26):
I have that. Yeah.
Matthew (40:28):
That you're done, sir.
Marissa (40:29):
Nope. In 1905, a French physician attended an execution
and stood close by theguillotine, where he grabbed a
man's head immediately after anexecution. He called the man's
name twice. And he claimed thatthe heads eyelids lifted each
time and met his gaze. The thirdtime it did not prompting the
man to record that the head hadprobably remained conscious from
(40:52):
somewhere between 25 to 30seconds after decapitation. But
yes, he called his name and thehead blinked and looked up at
him twice.
Matthew (41:00):
Yeah, it seems you unless your body goes into
shock. I mean, I don't see why.
It wouldn't. You know what Imean? Like, like, I feel like
you would have a few seconds ofconscious you've got to like,
why would you not? Yeah,
Marissa (41:15):
I mean, until the the blood supply completely drains
out, then or the oxygen youknow, it goes away, then. You've
got that still? Yeah,
Matthew (41:23):
I mean, it's the same thing. Like I mean, it's I think
you would probably remainconscious as long as you as if
you were being strangled. Youknow, if someone was just
throttling you to death, youhave a few you have a little
bit, you know, like I'm talkinglike, real hard throttling, not
like, like you're working to doit, but just like instantly
trying to cut this the bloodcirculation off to the head, it
(41:44):
still takes a few seconds. Yeah.
Marissa (41:46):
And 1989, an Army veteran reported after a car
accident, that his friend whohad been decapitated his face,
or his head had landed in hislap, and he could see his face
and he said, he watched theexpression on his friend's head
changed from shock and confusionto terror and grief. A couple of
studies on rats were able torecord electrical activity in
(42:08):
their brains for about fourseconds after decapitation in
one study. And other oneactually showed activity in the
brain for 10 to 15 seconds. Sothe brain
Matthew (42:17):
that's such a fucked up thing.
Marissa (42:19):
I know, like
Matthew (42:20):
capitate the cavitate animals and see how long the
brain
Marissa (42:24):
fuck dude, they've done it. Yeah, I'm sure
Matthew (42:27):
they do all kinds of shit to
Marissa (42:30):
completely agree with you. But it seems, let me think
about it. The brain feels notrauma when it happens. So the
brain is fine, at least for youknow, a few seconds. And then it
just takes a few seconds for theconsciousness to catch up to
what happened to the body. Andit's really scary. If you think
about it. Oh, yeah, for sure.
You know, can you imagine? Imean, I can't imagine but like
(42:52):
if if your head were to get cutoff, like right now, you
wouldn't know what was going onat first, but then you'd realize
something was wrong. And thenyou'd be able to see maybe your
body even and you'd be like, Ohmy god. So you'd be aware of
what was happening until hefinally did die?
Matthew (43:08):
Yeah, you would just suddenly just see it hit the
ground. You would you would, youknow, you would see yourself hit
the ground. It'd be crazy. Yeah,I I understand why they don't do
like a block instead of a blade,because the Gallagher effect and
it just fucking melon splashesyou, the audience with that, but
(43:30):
you think maybe.
Marissa (43:32):
Well, there's a lot of changes that go on wrong, too.
Yeah, but
Matthew (43:35):
you think like instead of having like, instead of
having a blade, you have like abig ass heavy wedge that goes
that drops on the actual skullto crush the skull rather than
decapitation? Because I really Idon't, I don't see how you could
unless again, unless it's shock,your body actually goes into
(43:57):
instantaneous shock. I don't seehow I don't see how you would
not be aware for at least a fewseconds, which those seconds
would be so long, longest. Oh mygod. Anyways.
Marissa (44:11):
Yeah, I mean, it's not practiced anywhere except Saudi
Arabia now. So
Matthew (44:14):
what science where it is? Come on, we should be able
to get some studies done onthat. Yeah. on humans. Leave the
mice alone.
Marissa (44:24):
I don't think they're going to be doing that on
humans. Oh, well.
Matthew (44:28):
I know. Well, that's what you know. That's why, if
you check out the PsychopathTest on our Patreon, I come out
as the most psychotic becauseI'm like, Nah, leave the animals
alone. Condemned criminals, youknow, science.
Marissa (44:45):
So you're saying to just drop a heavy boulder on
their head? Well, yeah,
Matthew (44:49):
ordain what Yeah, well, I think that's more humane. I
don't see how blunt force thisthe same argument of what we had
with the back end of the axe, itstuns you
Marissa (44:59):
I get what you're Are Saying I just I can see, first
of all the the amount of effortthey'd have to put into, you
know, having something superheavy high up and then drop in
the exact right spot. Lots ofways I can go wrong if it hits
it just slightly off, then you
Matthew (45:12):
just make it so you don't have to worry about not
getting multiple blows, likeindustrial hammer kind of show,
but like we're talking today,
Marissa (45:21):
we could do it but back in the day.
Matthew (45:23):
I'm talking now I'm talking now. Like,
Marissa (45:26):
we just use chemicals.
Sometimes Yeah,
Matthew (45:29):
yeah. Mostly. I'm not necessarily getting into an
argument of for against thedeath but no, I'm just saying
I'm for the death penalty. Okay,but I am but I'm not because
honestly, I think that in a lotof cases being being forced to
live with that there are fatesworse than death, for sure. For
(45:51):
sure. But anyways, I digress.
Marissa (45:55):
Being forced to see your body as you slowly lose
consciousness. That's prettybad.
Matthew (46:00):
That's very bad. But yeah, anyways, I just I think
that I think that blunt forcetrauma is is more humane than
than not. Anyways, thank you forlistening. Special thanks to our
patrons for helping us keep thisendeavor going. If you would
like to help support the show,you can head over to Patreon and
(46:23):
join up it is only $5. We have acouple of short stories journal
entries formulae for figuringout the impact velocity of a
vehicle hitting a person orother fleshy object. Also a
couple of extra episodes,including the Psychopath Test
that we took. And speaking ofsupport, we would like to direct
(46:45):
you to a link in the show noteswhere you can donate to the Make
a Wish charity. Alexis is afriend of ours who is taking up
a challenge to raise money forthe Make a Wish Foundation. And
it's an organization that helpschildren battling with cancer to
partake in some kind of liketrip, adventure or memorable
(47:07):
experience while they undergocancer treatments. This year,
Alexis is taking on a 28 milemountain hike through the
northern part of South Carolinato raise money and awareness for
the charity. It is not an easyhike. but it pales in comparison
to what these people who aregoing to these these cancer
treatments in their family gothrough. So if you can toss a
(47:30):
few duckets that way, that wouldbe appreciated. Her hike is
October 1 2022. If you'relistening to this after that
day, and you still want todonate, you still can, you don't
have to wait until the nextheight event or anything like
that. You can donate at anytime. They even have options to
donate funds that help out justlike local, local children as
(47:51):
well. Anyways, thank you forlistening, that link will be in
the show notes. If you want toreach out to us or see our
pictures that we took at theSydney Allen house, you can
follow us on Twitter andFacebook at Macabrepedia.
Marissa (48:06):
We're also on Instagram at Macabrepediapod. And you can
reach us on email for atmacabrepediapod@gmail.com. And
please if you haven't alreadydone so leave us a review. If
you're listening on Apple'sApple podcast or Spotify or
wherever you have the option ofleaving a review,
Matthew (48:22):
review, comment, share by word of mouth whatever you
can. It really helps us out andthey can tell your friends about
my opinions on the deathpenalty.
Marissa (48:34):
Oh yeah, definitely do that.
Matthew (48:36):
That's the selling point. Thank you as always and
join us next week as we addanother entry into this our
Macabrepedia
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