Garfield and the Insanity Defense

How common is the insanity defense? And what has it been used for? With a special focus on Charles Guiteau, who was responsible for the assassination of James Garfield, president of the United States.

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Ref:
Brown, D. N. L. (1991, June 7). PMS defense successful in Va.. drunken driving case. The Washington Post. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991/06/07/pms-defense-successful-in-va-drunken-driving-case/413e2fe4-5d81-489a-9ae2-16da429c3a48/ 

Public Broadcasting Service. (n.d.). A crime of insanity - insanity on trial | frontline. PBS. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html 

Public Broadcasting Service. (n.d.). A crime of insanity - insanity on trial | frontline. PBS. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/other.html 

[Author removed at request of original publisher]. (2015, December 17). 6.1 the insanity defense. Criminal Law. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/6-1-the-insanity-defense/ 

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Episode Transcript

Marissa (00:00):
Macabrepedia makes light of dark subject matter and

(00:02):
may not be suitable for allaudiences. Listener discretion
is advised.

Matthew (00:17):
March 30 1981, while being escorted to his waiting
limousine, then President RonaldReagan was shot and wounded by
John Hinckley Jr. Hinckley wouldopen fire hitting the President
with a ricocheted shot off ofhis limousine. Officer Thomas
Dell handy Secret Service agentTim McCarthy, and press
secretary James Brady would alsobe hit by bullets. All would

(00:42):
survive the attack, though Bradywould suffer permanent brain
damage and later die in 2014.
We'll touch on that later,Hinckley would be charged with
attempted assassination, hewould be found not guilty by
reason of insanity. You see,Hinckley was simply trying to
impress actress Jodie Foster,with whom he had developed a
delusional or rotomatic theobsession. Through the use of

(01:04):
the insanity defense, Hinckleywould be placed in a psychiatric
institution where he wouldremain until 2016. Because of
the public outcry, and a feelingthat clearly guilty parties
could escape prison time. Forheinous crimes by claiming they
were insane or even justtemporarily insane, would cause
the insanity defense to berevisited. Today, we will be

(01:26):
following the establishment andevolution of the insanity plea
as it pertains to parts of theWestern world. Join us as we add
another entry into this hourMacabrepedia.

Marissa (01:49):
Hello, and welcome to Macabrepedia a marriage of true
crime in the truly bizarre asalways, we are Your host,
Matthew and Marissa. And this is

Matthew (01:59):
my name first even though you're stating it,

Marissa (02:02):
I didn't think about it. And then I was like, Wait,
we're keeping it. Okay, Marissaand Matthew know Matthew as lead
host how bullshit okay. Soanyway, this is mental health
awareness month and it is thetail end of it, this should be
coming out on the 30th which is,of course, tomorrow, because we

(02:24):
do this at the last minute,

Matthew (02:25):
two hours from the 30th. But because of

Marissa (02:29):
that, we will be discussing some related issues
around this

Matthew (02:33):
somewhat. Yep. So today we will be exploring the
insanity defense, we willdiscuss the origins of the
fence, what it means what it wasand what it is now, as well as
some notable cases and casesthat may have you may have
assumed would have been insanitydefenses. Or at least they
should have been you would haveexpected them to use the

(02:56):
insanity defense and theyweren't. I suppose we should add
a further disclaimer that wehere at Macabrepedia are not
professional lawyers. We cannotprovide any level of legal
advice and we do not claim tohave any level of expertise in
legal matters. Except for

Marissa (03:13):
objection hearsay.

Matthew (03:15):
Not an expertise because no

Marissa (03:17):
just because I've been watching the Johnny Depp
hamburger trial all weekconstantly Yeah.

Matthew (03:21):
And then watching other people watch it and do
commentary. But anyways, we hadwe are not providing any, any
advice on legal matters or ofmental health. We are not mental
health professionalprofessionals. We are not
lawyers, we have no backgroundand either of those, although I
did accidentally once sign upfor college classes as a
paralegal. I did not mean to,but anyways, I did not follow

(03:45):
through with any of those. Soanyways. And as you as Merced
said, May is Mental HealthAwareness Month, and we highly
encourage anyone who may need orwant help. To reach out to your
local professionals get the helpyou need sidenote, most everyone
can benefit from having sometype of counseling. I also

(04:05):
believe that a majority ofpeople in the Western world
suffer from some type of issuethat could be found in the DSM.
So really, let's begin with someair quotes. Normal is probably
the minority. It's not aweakness to talk about your
feelings and mental states.
Also, Insanity is used here as aterm for criminal behavior, not

(04:25):
as a descriptor for those withmental health issues. And at
this point, I will get off thesoapbox. The insanity defense is
not a justification of a crime.
It is instead an excuse as towhy the person committed the
crime or if they realized thatthey were committing a crime at

(04:46):
all, effectively, not statingthat the defendant didn't commit
the crime but instead wascompelled to do so and that's
and thusly should be excusedfrom criminal charges or conduct
during the act. as of therecording of this podcast 2022
The insanity defense isrecognized in most US states,

(05:08):
the exceptions being Idaho,Kansas, Montana and Utah, there
isn't one there. The defense ishighly controversial, as at a
glance, it seems to be a viablepath for acquittal of pretty
much any crime. Regardless ofhow terrible or grotesque or or
how severe the actual crime is,it isn't as easy as just

(05:30):
claiming that the defendant isinsane, or has mental health
issues. The insanity isdifficult to prove, and is
actually very rarely used. Whenit is a template when it is
attempted. It very rarelysticks. Yeah,

Marissa (05:46):
I would say people are very skeptical of that. Yeah.
Because it's it's

Matthew (05:49):
very hard to relate to someone who's like, but as we go
through some of these forsomeone to be like, I didn't
realize that what I did waswrong. Like I didn't know
killing somebody was wrong.
Yeah, so it's hard to relate tosomebody who, how could that
person possibly believe thatmany criminals suffer from some
sort of mental illness asdefined by the DSM? I think
we're on volume five, five,that's what

Marissa (06:11):
I thought, yeah, it's the Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Disorders,

Matthew (06:15):
this is actually a requirement for the defense to
be entered at all. Presently, inagain, this is also through the
lens of pretty much the US law,for the most part, I don't
really their US law is based onsome European things with the
MacNaughton is what a lot ofthis is based off of, and that

(06:37):
that is actually English. Butfor the most part, we're mostly
focused on the US. The mentalillness has to be a previously
diagnosed or been shown somehowdocumented in some way as being
present for more than just thecrime that the person is being
accused of. That does kind offall into kind of a temporary
insanity kind of plea. But forthe most part, you have to be

(07:01):
diagnosed with a mental illness,in order to even bring insanity
to the table. There areessentially four types of
incentive defenses. That as Ijust stated, the Minoan defense,
which is named for Danielmanaan, who, in 1843, would
shoot a member of EnglishParliament because he thought

(07:23):
that he was actually shootingthe prime minister, who did not
and was convinced was plottingto kill him. This would be one
of the first times in westernlaw, that cognitive ability and
reasoning would be successfullyused to defend a murder or
attempted murder, at least atleast on this scale. This does

(07:43):
set the stage for thedevelopment of the guidelines
for the insanity defense, as werecognize it now. Obviously, in
the past people, that guy did itbecause he's crazy. Yes, I'm
sure that has happened. But thiswas the first time when it was
like, really actually, likepresented like, maybe there's,
there's maybe this is somethingwe have to kind of separate from

(08:05):
just the crime itself is, is thevolition and cognitive abilities
of the person who's committingthe crimes, the manaan test
takes into account thedefendants awareness and not
their ability to control theirimpulses. So the two basic parts
of the tests are, firstly, thedefendant must be suffering from
some kind of mental defect ordisease of the mind. Okay, so

(08:29):
this has some kind of mentalhealth issue at the that has to
be at the time of the crime.
Secondly, they must also besuffering so fully from this
defect, that they cannot reasonout that the action is air
quotes wrong by the establishedand generally agreed upon moral
parameters of the conduct.

(08:51):
Depending on the jurisdiction,the claims may be different, it
is exceedingly rare that someoneuses that offense that they just
didn't know what they weredoing, that kind of falls into a
different category for them ornot. And it's they didn't know
what they were doing, but didn'trealize that what they were
doing was, quote unquote, wrong.
Some jurisdictions use the termagain, air quotes wrong to mean

(09:13):
legally wrong by standards ofsocietal law, ie they literally
were unaware that murder wasillegal. Some jurisdictions put
it on a morally wrong, where theperson may believe that they
were commanded by God. This iscalled the de effect defense,
and thusly, that there is nonemore strongly positioned to

(09:36):
define morality than Godthemselves. And as such means
that the murderer by God'scommand, you are always going to
be morally correct.
So, the non defense is that thedefendant was unaware of right
or wrong, at least during thecrime, some who would fail to

(09:58):
use this offense. would be aperson who had committed a crime
and then attempted to cover itup or throw people off their the
trail or use false informationto clear themselves in some way
that shows that you realize thatthere's something wrong with
what you did or else youwouldn't be hiding it right.
This shows an awareness that thecrime, if discovered, or if it
was linked to you in some waywould result in punishment

(10:19):
thusly morally or legally wrong,right. For example, the manana
defense being usedunsuccessfully. If you want to
hear this story in more detail,you can check out Carolina
crimes podcast episode numberfive. This is from the story
from South Carolina. It madehuge news when it happened. So
most people are probablyfamiliar with it. But it was

(10:42):
Susan Lee Smith, the woman whodrowned her two young sons by
locking them into their carseats and driving her car into a
lake. And that was big news.
Yeah, she then tried to claimthat she had been her car was
hijacked by a man with a gun.
And this clearly shows that shewas trying to shift blame to
somebody else. obviously knewshe was that killing her

(11:04):
toddlers was wrong, but Iprobably don't want I emphasized
air air quotes. Killing toddlersis wrong. Yeah, they are quote
that one. She knew it was wrong.
It's wrong. But yeah, she wasdoing this for the affections of
some guy who didn't know if hewanted to take on responsibility
of having kids so she was like,well if I kill my kids, no

(11:25):
problem. No problem solve it.
Yeah, but anyways, Carolinacrimes podcast episode number
five they cover it I think it'sin two parts even so they really
deep dive that one a similarcrime and this one this one is
pretty pretty pretty rough.
Because of the fact that this isthis is this isn't this is
backing up slightly. Obviously.

(11:48):
Murder is inherently somethingthat seems to be insane, right?
If you go on a killing spreehere and insane person that
doesn't qualify you for theinsanity defense because it's
the understanding of what you'redoing is right or wrong. This is
another and I'm telling I'm overprefacing this, and I really
only kind of broad stroke thisone because it's it's tough. But

(12:10):
it this one does deal with anumber of children being killed.
But it's very similar to the tothe Susan Lee Smith. thing. So
anyway, a similar crime that wassuccessful in the use of the
insanity defense was Andreagates of Texas, who one by one

(12:30):
took her five babies from thebreakfast table where they were
eating their breakfast, anddrown them one at a time in the
bathtub, before taking them andposing them all together in the
bed as if they were all sleepingand cuddling. She then called
911 and unemotional Leerecounted the past hour and
drowning of her children. Whenquestioned about why she did it,

(12:53):
she calmly explained that it wasbecause the children weren't
developing properly, properlybecause of the devil's
influence. And she wanted themto go to heaven before it was
too late for them. Her childrenwere Paul h3, Luke two John
five, Noah seven and Mary whowas only six months old and I

(13:18):
don't have a podcast appointanyone to for this one. And
really the broad strokes areprobably all you need to know on
this one but I will link thearticle that I pulled these
details from it's it's it's it'sintense and I don't really feel
like going over many moredetails because this lady if you
they have her exchanges, and shesuffered from mental illness for

(13:39):
a long time to the point whereit was her family had been
advised to not leave her alonewith children for more than for
at all really unsupervised atall. Her husband was trying to
gradually allow her to have moretime alone with the children.

(14:00):
And he was only gone for an hourand in the hour that this that
as soon as he left she shecommitted all the all these
crimes. So yeah, so she wasinsane because she believes that
she was doing it because it wasthe right thing to do. And there
was nothing morally wrong withit or legally wrong with it. So

(14:21):
the manana defense is mentalillness plus not understanding
the legal repercussions, or thatthe act was worth going back to
air quotes wrong. This will leadto a verdict of not guilty by
reason of insanity, and thuslythey will be acquitted.
Next, we have the irresistibleimpulse insanity defense or

(14:43):
test. This is almost never usedas a defense anymore because it
focuses on the defendantsability to stop themselves from
doing the act. This is right orwrong is not necessarily
important in this one. It's Doyou are you acting under your
own volition or because of someforce that's forcing you to do

(15:03):
this, the defendant can knowthat what they are doing is
wrong, and still do it becausethey are not able to control
their actions in the moments.
This could be used inconjunction with a claim that
the defendant was unaware oftheir actions being wrong, but
it doesn't have to be. Sothey're just doing something
that any any time would, theywould say was wrong to do. But
they were possessed at the time,like being compelled. Yeah, or

(15:28):
Yeah, or sleepwalking orsomething along those lines,
right. So this is a question ofvolition, not cognition. Were
they able to stop themselvesfrom committing the act? I think
this is kind of more like thedevil made me do it, you know,
kind of a defense. Unlike Yeats,she did that under her own

(15:50):
volition to save her child fromthe devil, not the devil had
taken control of her to kill herchildren. Right. So that's,
that's the difference betweenthose two, an example provided
by the University of Minnesota,where the in irresistible
impulse defense did not work isand this is kind of an example
of showing where it may haveworked. A woman believes that

(16:11):
her college sorority sisters areout to get her and that she
needs to strike first, she takesa taser and a pair of scissors
to the sorority house, where sheplans on stunning her sorority
sisters and then cutting alltheir hair off, not murder just
shaved him all bald becausethat's what she feels she needs

(16:32):
to do. Upon arrival. At thesorority house. She watches as
one of her sorority sistersstumbles down some stairs or
trips in the parking lot and sheshe falls and she has some minor
abrasions like a split lip andShe rips her clothes. So it's a
pretty substantial fall. Thedefendant decides in that moment
not to include this sororitysister in her in her actions. So

(16:55):
she leaves her just bypasses herand goes into the house. Later,
she encounters another sororitysister and this is the first
sorority sister she sees whenshe comes into the house, they
have a little bit of anexchange. Just like a verbal
exchange, not even anythingparticularly violent or
anything. She may have insultedher clothing, but that's here

(17:16):
nor there. She then stuns herand shaves her head. And then
later when making the insanitydefense. The prosecution uses
her ability to feel sympathy forthe one who had fallen to the
ground outside and use this asgrounds to dismiss the insanity
plea because she clearly wasable to overcome her paranoia

(17:38):
and resist her impulses. Then sothusly undermines her claim of
irresistible impulses, right. Soyeah, so she, but that's also
that was like an assault charge.
You know, bringing it back downa little bit, please do the baby
drowning. So now not laughing atbaby drone. I once I, when I hit

(18:04):
that story, I was like, if everyone of them is gonna be like
that. I'm really neat. I'mchanging the topic. Like I'm not
striking. Yeah, I'm not going todo this. But then then I read
that one and I was like, Oh,see, that's a fun assault and
battery charge. That's waybetter. That's just some, some
teasing and light fun here.
That's just barely anything.

(18:25):
Just a little shaved head. I sayit's a bald man. Oh, I would
love to get tased to notnecessarily with someone who's
trying to shave me, but Idigress.

Marissa (18:37):
Whatever free haircut

Matthew (18:40):
depends on what they're shaving, I guess. Anyways, next,
we move on to the substantialcapacity test, which is what
allowed Hinckley, the attemptedassassin of Reagan to
successfully use the insanitydefense after attempting to
assassinate Ronald Reagan. Thistakes the two previously touched

(19:01):
on tests and kind of looselyties the two of them together a
bit or kind of lessons, each ofthe each of the ingredients to
make this make this insanitysoup. The the substantial
capacity test like the manaanand the irresistible impulse
tests need to have a previouslydocumented or diagnoseable,

(19:22):
diagnosable diagnoseablewhatever previously diagnosed
mental illness. But unlikeeither of those, the impulse or
understanding does not have tobe total, it just has to be
substantial. Right? So this isimportant, because it means that
defendant can be aware that theact is wrong or feel driven to

(19:43):
undertake the act, but but notto the point that it's all
encompassing and overriding justsubstantial. So not I didn't
know murder was wrong, butinstead Yeah, murder is wrong,
but lot not like every murderright now This one was a special
murder. So the this change comesfrom the difference in the words

(20:06):
of no and appreciate. These arein the actual letter of the law
that changes the word from fromNo to appreciate kn kn O W. Can
Can the defendant appreciatethat what they did was wrong? Or
do they know it was wrong? Thisis no longer used as a test as

(20:29):
it is very easy to work withinthe gray areas of no versus
appreciate, as well assubstantial versus total. After
1982. Most states would replacethis kind of a test with with
more something closer to them ornot in test. We also have
another one that's particularlyrare. It's so rare, in fact that

(20:51):
only one state in the US hasthis which state is the New
Hampshire okay. This is theDurham insanity defense. The
Durham insanity defense is themost basic and straightforward
defense. The requirement ismental illness and a crime. If
you have documented mentalillness and commit in an
unlawful act of criminalconduct, you can claim insanity.

(21:17):
The only it's the only the onlysay that does it is in New
Hampshire. So if you arediagnosed with paranoid
schizophrenia, and you believethat your neighbors are secretly
plotting to kill you or whateversummon Mephistopheles, resulting
in you having to feel the needto take initiative and strike
first. Well, you better do it inNew Hampshire, because you may
get away with it. As long as youhave a mental illness that could

(21:42):
be to blame for your behavior.
So any mental illness, it has tobe able to be connected to so
it's not like I suffer fromwhenever I don't even OCD. Oh,
is it? Yeah, that's well, yeah,probably not. I mean, if you
have a really good lawyer,maybe, but like, yeah, I have
OCD. Right. And me personally, Ido have minor OCD, right? I

(22:03):
don't like having anything on anodd number. Unless it's a
multiple of five. I know what'sweird, whatever. That's that's
who I

Marissa (22:13):
am. But I'm used to keeping the T numbers for years.

Matthew (22:17):
What if I killed you because of it? Even in New
Hampshire? I'm pretty surethey're not going to say, Well,
that was reason you're insane.
No, it's also not really fair toinsane people or people with
mental illness to just assumethat, well, you know, they have
a mental illness. So they'recrazy person. But yeah, but I
mean, like, yeah, there's, I'msure there are some that lend
themselves better to the idea.

(22:41):
And you still have to be doingsomething that's like, paranoid
schizophrenia, or psychotic insome fashion, you know,
differing from the insanityinsanity, that it's like I
hadn't said that word 4040 timesalready. I also have a minor
stutter so different from theinsanity to the insanity
defense, but at least kind ofrelated are the diminished

(23:02):
capacity defense, and which isrelated to a syndrome defense.
And also, there's a mentalcompetency to stand trial
defense. Okay, so, thediminished capacity defense,
essentially claimed that again,these are not like Insanity
defenses, but they're somewhatrelated. So the diminished

(23:25):
capacity defense essentiallyclaimed that the person lacked
the capacity to commit a moresevere crime, and thusly, the
charges may be lowered, if notcompletely withdrawn altogether.
This could reduce a charge fromlike first degree murder to like
manslaughter. If the defendantis believed to lack the
competency to for premeditatedmurder. It requirements for

(23:48):
which is a requirement for firstdegree murder the that you had
planned to do it. An examplegiven by, again the University
of Minnesota, or U M. n.edu. Thearticle is a first degree murder
charge being reduced because thedefendant, his defense team said

(24:09):
that his diet, which consistedprimarily of Twinkies, had
caused him to have a chemicalimbalance that that led him to
kill a co worker.

Marissa (24:20):
I mean, there's, there's like no nutritional
value in Twinkies.

Matthew (24:24):
Madness. No. I mean, that's a that is a ballsy thing
to bring to court. It getsbetter nice. The diminished
capacity defense is a type ofsyndrome defense. This is this
is this gets even better. Asyndrome defense is like a crime

(24:45):
has. It's like if you had acrime that was caused or
connected to something likePTSD, or some kind of like
trigger, right. So this isessentially the removal of
criminal intent. Something moreassociated with like a temporary
loss of control or a TemperTemper temporary chemical

(25:06):
imbalance such as fromwithdrawal, which there's even
been people who have used thiswithdrawal from caffeine as a
defense for for crimes. Or inthe case of Geraldine Richter of
Fairfax County, Virginia,premenstrual syndrome. Richter
had been pulled over for erraticdriving while her kids were in

(25:30):
the car and refused a fieldsobriety test claiming she
didn't have to do that cuz she'sa fucking doctor, which she is
actually, but then shephysically and verbally
assaulted the Virginia StateTrooper. She was She he, she
tried to like kick him in thegroin, and was like flipping out
on him when she when he wastrying to like take her away for

(25:51):
her behavior. Meanwhile, she haslike her her three children in
the car. She was found notguilty on any of the charges,
because of PMS. What defense is,

Marissa (26:01):
I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. Yeah, I
mean, like, first of all, sheseems like she's got some
remarkable hubris to just belike, I'm a doctor, you

Matthew (26:09):
can't touch me. You

Marissa (26:10):
can't touch me. Cop.
I'm

Matthew (26:12):
a doctor.

Marissa (26:13):
I'm on my period.
Sorry.

Matthew (26:14):
Yeah. And they brought in a specialist that said that
two things were involved withthat. One is there's like a 5%
to 7% of people have like, ofwomen, I guess, would be have
like a very rough PMS.

Marissa (26:30):
Some people do.
Absolutely. Yeah. But to thepoint

Matthew (26:33):
where it causes her to be in a highly emotionally
charged state. And then the factthat the officer in attempting
to get her to cooperate, saidthat if she didn't cooperate,
that he would have to arrest herin that would all call make him
have to call the social servicesto take the kids who are sitting

(26:54):
in the car. And their defensewas, oh, and then she freaked
out because it's like a mamabear protecting her cubs. And
not the six glasses of wine thatshe admitted to him. I mean,
like, that's just it's justcrazy. So I'll link to
Washington Post article for thisone as well. It's it's just so

(27:14):
dumb and snugly fits into thethe bizarre category, I think
it's not very McCobb. But it'sjust how, how bizarre weird of a
person and to get away with it,too. It's not anyway, there's
also a the issue of mentalcompetency to stand trial. What
that means is, is that adefendant has to be able to

(27:38):
understand and participate intheir own defense and their
trial. As the Model Penal Codeprovides. Quote, no person who
as a result of mental disease ordefect, lacks capacity to
understand the proceedingsagainst him or to assist in his
own defense shall be tried,convicted or sentenced for the

(28:00):
commission of any offense solong as such incapacity endures.
A defendant who is mentallyincompetent at the time of the
trial is subject to mentalhealth treatment or even
involuntary medication untilcompetency has been regained.
This means that someone who isabsolutely and completely unable

(28:23):
to grasp the ideas of laws andor court proceedings at the time
cannot be tried. I'm not surehow often this comes into play,
I feel that someone who's trulywho's doing truly horrendous
crimes, but doesn't understandin sufficient capacity that
rules exist, are probably goingto be dismissed as accidental in
nature and not fall into thiscategory of postponing the trial

(28:46):
until they realize that realityis real, right. So I don't know
for sure, I would have to digmuch deeper than I was going to
do on the subject, that mostoften people think that the
insanity defense is like formurder, which is likely to be

(29:07):
probably one of the more commonones, but there are also lesser
crimes as well in I think themental competency issue is
probably most commonly an issuefor someone with like some
lesser crimes probably or peoplewho are like, completely wasted
or on drugs or comatose orsomething like that at the time,

(29:28):
or somebody who's like it hadbeen also injured in it and
they're, you know, in amedically induced Well, it's
actually the term for medicallyinduced coma. But you know, if
they're incapacitated in someway, they have to wait for them
to be like back on their feet inorder to do so. Not guilty by
reason of insanity exoneratesthe defendant. But these are

(29:51):
rare and result in prolongedpossibly lifelong stays and
mental mental institutions. Itisn't just Well, you're crazy as
hell, I guess we'll just youdon't have to go to prison Have
a good day bye. And that's notthe way it works. It's still
incarceration or imprisonment ofsome level. But in a mental

(30:12):
facility in a in a hospitalskind of facility. So with a
claim of insanity, or beingplaced in a mental hospital, it
stands to reason that a personcan quote, get better, right.
And at that point, they may bejust released or put in
outpatient or something, right.
So you can commit a crime reasonof insanity, you get to leave
once you're better rather thanafter a punishment stay. And

(30:33):
because of this rule, andbecause of the rules of double
jeopardy, which is being triedfor the same crime twice, if, if
the person is released, theybasically got away with the
crime. Right. So I assume that'swhere the controversy comes in.
Most often, as was the case withHinkley. He attempted to kill

(30:55):
Reagan, the sitting president atthe time, three other people
were injured, one of which died.
Like I said, Brady died in 2014.
But it was ruled a homicide,even though it was that long
later because of the damagesthat had been done to him during
that crime. But Hinckley wasstill released in 2016. I guess,

(31:16):
because he wasn't tried. Becauseit's technical. I don't think
it's, I don't think it'stechnically the same crime if
it's ruled a homicide after thefact, this isn't an episode on
hankley. Specifically.
More commonly, these days, aperson who claims not guilty by
insanity does run the chance ofbeing found guilty, but mentally

(31:37):
ill, which means this verdictresults in the person being
incarcerated. But receivingpsychiatric treatment while in
prison, which is probably theway that a lot of them should
probably go. In the Americanlegal system. The accused is
supposed to be treated asinnocent until proven guilty.

(31:59):
This is the same with sanity,the accused is considered sane
until proven insane, it becomesthe defense burden of proof
falls on the defense. A legalteam that is attempting to
utilize the insanity defensefirst acquires a psychiatric
evaluation as insanity, pleaseneed to first have a diagnosed
mental illness, whether it'seven just after the current life

(32:21):
doesn't have to be like, you'vebeen suffering from this for
years. But just have it, you dohave to have a doctor that
actually says this person hasborderline but uh, but whatever,
it doesn't matter. After that,they can bring the evaluation to
the judge and submit the plea.
If the evaluation comes backwith a with some kind of
indicator that the defendant isboth sane and capable of

(32:42):
standing trial, will strategieshave to change, perhaps pulling
out the temporary insanity plea?
They were only insane at thetime of the crime. And now
they're fine. If this works, andthey're found not guilty due to
temporary insanity, after theverdict is read, they just go go

(33:03):
free. Well, they don'tnecessarily have to go to
treatment of any kind becausethey don't actually have a
mental illness. They just had amental illness at the time.

Marissa (33:11):
That's the way to go.
Yeah, I'm

Matthew (33:13):
assuming that that one is not easy to get the stasher.
Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, Idon't like him. We're not legal
professionals or anything likethat. But I mean, like, I feel
like if I was a lawyer, I'dstart every case with temporary
insanity. You see, my YourHonor, my client was insane, at

(33:33):
the time of 6pm to 615, and theyhave made a full recovery. So
why don't we go ahead and letthem go. Anyways, that kind of
wraps up this portion. Adefendant can plead not guilty
due to insanity. They are thenevaluated against the tests
within whatever the jurisdictiondoes. After that they're
determined if they are mentallyincompetent to stand trial,

(33:56):
resulting in a delay in thetrial until compsci is gained
once the trial. Once they onceat the trial, they can be found
either guilty or not guilty notguilty by insanity, resulting in
an acquittal or they can befound guilty but mentally ill
resulting in a prison sentencecombined with psychiatric
therapy. And they may alsoqualify for diminished capacity

(34:18):
or a syndrome defense resultingin the guilty verdict but for a
lesser charge. It also seemsthat a lot of insanity pleas are
often on political figures,assassination attempts, so like
Richard Lawrence, was acquittedin 1835, after he tried to fire

(34:40):
two pistols at President AndrewJackson, as Jackson was walking
through for like a funeralprocession and this guy jumps
out, takes tries to take twoshots at Andrew Jackson. Both
pistols misfire, so all of asudden he's grabbed and whatnot
and Mmm. He had a one day trial,Lawrence repeatedly interrupted

(35:04):
the proceedings loudlyproclaiming that he was the king
of England and Rome.

Marissa (35:10):
Really? Yes. Didn't know those two roles went
together.

Matthew (35:13):
Yeah. He believed that Andrew Jackson had been secretly
working against him being ableto claim his rightful
inheritance to the Britishthrone and getting his fortune.
So he was, he was acquitted byreason of insanity after five
minutes of deliberation, and hespent the rest of his 26 years

(35:38):
in an asylum. John shrank, shotTeddy Roosevelt at close range.
And this is a pretty this is apretty famous thing because
Teddy Roosevelt is a fuckingbadass, he was giving a speech
and this guy, John Trank, stepsup, close range fires a bullet
into his chest right over hisheart. And Roosevelt stumbles

(36:04):
around for a little bit,obviously, shrank gets gets
captured, Roosevelt realizesthat his life was just saved by
the copy of his speech and hiseyeglass case, which was in
there but the bullet had stillactually, it says when three
inches into his chest, which ona normal sized person is lethal,

(36:26):
but this is a big guy chestedfrickin Ranger was just like
bounce shot, get up, insisted onfinishing his speech. Meanwhile,
John shrank getsinstitutionalized the rest of
his life. But he had believedthat that William McKinley had
appeared to him in a dream andtold him that he had to kill

(36:48):
Roosevelt. McKinley wasassassinated. So the ghost of a
previously assassinatedPresident. When was McKinley?
What year?

Marissa (36:57):
Yeah, it was early 20th century like 1901.

Matthew (37:02):
Right. Okay, so Roosevelt was 1912 that that
happens. So David Berkowitz,known as the Son, Son of Sam,
famous serial killer, he, hisdefense team tried to get him to
make the plea of insanitybecause he had claimed that he
was acting under the orders ofhis neighbor's black demon dog

(37:29):
who had been telling him who tokill. But despite the fact that
a psychiatrist had found himparanoid and delusional, the
court did find him capable ofstanding trial. And the
Berkowitz wouldn't allow the hislawyers to make an insanity
claim. So he just admitted tothe murders and got 365 365

(37:55):
years in prison without thepossibility of parole. And then
John Wayne Gacy, he attempted todo the insanity plea didn't
stick. One of the ones that Ithought was really weird,
because the guy it's CharlesManson. I'm sure everyone's
familiar with Charles Manson. Hedidn't. They didn't attempt to

(38:20):
do and insanity, plead with him.
And that's where I think is theweird thing about insanity.
Right? Or the insanity plea isthat if you listen to Manson
talk, the dude is on a differentplanet. Like he just is. He's
the dude's Crazy, right? Andthey didn't, they didn't they

(38:40):
didn't even try with that.
Actually, the defense didn'teven the defense didn't even
make a defense. Like they didn'tthey brought no witnesses or
anything to it. Which is crazy,because technically, Charles
Manson didn't even really doanything. He had a conspiracy to
kill people, apparently, but Idon't think he didn't actually
kill anyone. story for anotherepisode, though. Anyways, that

(39:04):
was one of the ones that Ithought I was like, why why
would so if you don't submit theinsanity plea, they don't it
just doesn't even come to thecome to come to the courtroom,
which is, I think, pretty weird.
Because, like you're dealingwith Charles Manson, who's
clearly insane, you know, but

Marissa (39:24):
whenever the lawyers could have presented it, sure.
Yeah,

Matthew (39:27):
but the dudes clearly insane. And they're probably
like, nah, this guy's a danger.
You know, I mean, he was hewasn't, he was supposed to get
the death. That's deathsentence. But they changed the
law. So capital punishmentwasn't on the table anymore. So
he spent like 6070 years inprison, trying to do appeals and
stuff and come up for parole andwhatnot and Nope. But other than

(39:50):
that, who is another presidentof ours? Who MIT. This is your
part of,

Marissa (40:03):
I thought you were gonna continue this. Oh,

Matthew (40:05):
this is me trying to give you a time to jump in.

Marissa (40:08):
This is Charles Guiteau. So Charles Guiteau. He,
just real briefly, he was bornin 1841. So this is a time
period. He had like kind of areally shitty childhood, his
three out of his five siblingsdied. His father was very
religious and abusive toCharles. And so Charles kind of
ended up some being somebody whoneeded a lot of approval from

(40:29):
people. And so he he ended upgrowing up and he didn't get to
enter the University of Michiganwhen he tried to go. So he ended
up going to the Oneida communityinstead in New York. This was a
commune, I guess, of people.
They were trying to be veryreligious, but the way that they
saw that, so they were trying towork Yes, they were trying to

(40:50):
live a very religious life wherethey had they commit no sense
they were committing no sins iswhat was the goal? That's the
goal. But at the same time,their version of that was lots
of free sex lighter foreverybody. In fact, it's
monotonous Yeah, monotonousrelationships monotonous,
monogamous. Yeah. Well, themonogamous relationships were

(41:12):
frowned upon even so just Justbriefly, this community, they,
they had this tradition of sortof, like insulting people in a
way to try to bring them down, Iguess, as far as their hubris.
And also, though, the, theythere was like, the the like, as
I said, they would, they wouldhave sex with each other. But it

(41:33):
was free, free, you know, as faras whoever the men were not
allowed to climax during theact, women or they could it was
like, it was something that theywanted. In fact, if they did not
make the woman climax, it wassomething that they would be it
would be frowned upon. Theywould be made fun of in some

(41:54):
ways in the community, but themen could not so actually, when
they were younger, and they weretraining them to not climax,
they would actually put themwith older women who had gone
through menopause so there'd beno risk of pregnancy. Yes, so
they could train them to notclimax. As you can imagine,
masturbation was a big thing.

(42:15):
Even though they didn't wantthem to do it. It was still
something that they did. And itwas like a seen as a problem in
some cases. But anyway, yeah, Ifeel

Matthew (42:22):
like the climaxing would also just be like, oh,
man, I failed again. I guess Ihave to go. Oh, man,

Marissa (42:28):
but Charles Guiteau. He

Matthew (42:30):
didn't make fun of me.
So he did go

Marissa (42:32):
there for a while. He was a young lad. He wasn't that
young. He was, you know, hetried to get in community
college or into college. So hewas he's in his 20s. But he
ended up leaving because theyreally didn't like him at all.
Like people kind of hated him.
In fact, his name was CharlesGuiteau, as I said, and they
started calling him Charlescutout. Hmm. So they really

(42:52):
didn't like him. But that waspart of his his his story. But
then he tried to do a newspaper.
It was called the dailytheocrats so religious, but it
failed. Then he tried to sue theUnited Community for the free
labor that he gave him, but gotnowhere. Yeah. He then joined a
law firms industrious. He ishe's got a lot of schemes. He

(43:16):
joined a law firm at age 27, andmet his wife there. He mostly
did Bill collecting thoughthere. So he was a bill
collector. But what happened washe would see these people who
were debtors. And he saw there,now we're talking. Yeah, he saw
how they went about their lives.
And he learned a lot. So heended up charging massive fees
to his clients, and he neverpaid his bills. So he was off.

(43:39):
He was very much a debtor untilsomebody tried to collect on
him. And then him and his wifefled in New York. His family
tried to New

Matthew (43:50):
York night held in New York City, because all nighters
in New York? No,

Marissa (43:53):
yes. He I think he had moved back at some point. His
family tried to have himcommitted since 1875. But he had
escaped. Yeah. So this is thisis the guy. So later in 1880s,

Matthew (44:05):
this is far more detailed than any of the cases
that I present. I've got more

Marissa (44:09):
detail. I mean, it might be a little long. So in
1880, Ulysses, Ulysses S. Grant,was the front runner for
President. I mean, let's makesense. This is a couple decades
after the Civil War, Ulysses S.
Ulysses S. Grant was the majorUnion General in a civil war. So
he was big in the politicalfigure, but he was the front

(44:29):
runner, they thought that he wasgoing to take the nomination.
And so Guiteau decided that hewould support grant and he took
it upon himself to write aspeech for grants that he titled
grant against Hancock, Hancockbeing the other, you know, but
then when grant lost thenomination for president so
James A Garfield Guiteau justwent in and revise the speech

(44:52):
from Grant against Hancock toGarfield against Hancock, he
literally went in and just likechange the names Hmm, yeah, so
he

Matthew (45:01):
was like, this is solid. I'm still gonna

Marissa (45:03):
I'm just gonna change the name. Exactly. That is his
attitude for sure. The speechwas pretty crappy, even written,
it was crappy. It was actuallynever given never, you know, no
speech was ever given from it.
Garfield certainly never gavethe speech maybe didn't see it.
And Guiteau did have copiesprinted that he distributed. But
he never actually paid that billeither. Despite the fact

Matthew (45:28):
he's like, if I just if I just asked for it. Yeah, they
give it to me. And then whenthey asked for money, I just

Unknown (45:35):
tell him no, it's a lot. It's so easy. Exactly.

Matthew (45:39):
That's how debtors work. I know, trust me, I know.
But despite the fact this is notbecause I'm a debtor, it's
because I'm a debt collector.
Just to let the audience know,it's not because I don't pay my
shit.

Marissa (45:51):
So despite the fact that it was complete crowds on
Patreon, he wrote. So hebasically changed the name,
Garfield, one. And Guiteauclaimed that his speech was the
reason why Garfield won, despitethe fact that the speech was
never given. It was was thatpowerful. Yeah. So he figured
that he should be rewarded forthe diplomatic posts, which he

(46:13):
preferred to be either in Viennaor Paris, his first choice being
Vienna, but he'll settle forParis, right? Make sense? So he
traveled to DC a day afterGarfield was inaugurated,
believing that he would berewarded. At this time, people
could request an audience withthe President. It was really
different than they could go inand they could be given an
office, a political office bymeeting with the President. So

(46:36):
he did this. He went in he triedto get an audience with them.

Matthew (46:39):
He just walked in like we did it.

Marissa (46:41):
Yeah, he did. He really did. Exactly. He did get an
audience and with the Secretaryof State Blaine, he dropped off
a copy of his speech while hewas there, expressing that he
was glad to be of service andgetting Garfield elected. balls
in the sky. I mean, he's he's,he's clearly delusional, but

(47:02):
Guiteau spent two months livingin DC traveling around rooming
houses and not paying his bills,basically, staying on brand.
When the bill got too high, justkind of left. At first, the
White House officials weremostly just annoyed by him. Like
who is this guy? Like what iswhat what is he thinking? But
eventually he wore out hiswelcome. And he was barred from

(47:22):
the White House and SecretaryBlaine told him quote, never
speak to me again on the Parisconsulship as long as you live
this really upset CharlesGuiteau he borrowed some money
and went and bought a gun. Andwhen presented with the two
options, which were a woodenhandled gun or an ivory handled
gun, he chose the ivory handledgun because he thought that it

(47:44):
would look better in a museumafter the assassination. Nice.
Yes, actually, it was actuallytoo expensive for him but the
store owner dropped the price. Idon't know. But he didn't

Matthew (47:54):
pay the bill. Anyways, Brian, you probably put it on my
Yeah, I got you. I got some goodfor it. And I'm gonna I'm gonna
be I'm an ambassador baby.

Marissa (48:03):
second toe spent the next few weeks following
Garfield around and practicingshooting. He wrote a lot like
while

Matthew (48:08):
he's walking around.
That was you baby did

Marissa (48:15):
know separately. He I guess wasn't familiar with
firearms. So he practiced that.
He wrote a letter to GeneralSherman asking him to for
protection from the mob thatwould no doubt assemble after he
shot the president. He alsowrote letters that he thought
would heal the Senate within theRepublican Party after he
assassinated the president.
Because he figured there wouldbe some issues, you know.

Matthew (48:36):
I mean, the guy's not known. So he even went to the
District

Marissa (48:39):
of Columbia jail, and he asked to tour this facility
to pick his room. Yes. And theguy at the jail was just like,
just come back later, man.

Matthew (48:48):
Come back and cops also.

Marissa (48:51):
He spent most of June following Garfield around at one
point in meaning to kill him butseeing him with his wife and
First Lady, Lucretia Garfield.
He didn't do it because thecreature was known to be in poor
health. So Guiteau didn't wantto upset her and left. Yes,
good. On July 2, Garfield wentwith his two sons to the train
station where he was scheduledto leave for summer vacation. He

(49:13):
didn't have any guards with him.
But this was not common practicefor presidents to have at the
time. Having guards with him.
Yeah. He did have a Secretary ofState and Secretary of War with
him, but they were just there tosee him off. It wasn't like a
protection type thing. The firstbullet that hit him when Charles
came behind him, hit hisshoulder and it just grazed him.

(49:34):
So he was like, What the hellwas that? And then the second
bullet hit him in the backbecause Guiteau was a coward i
guess. And he hit him in theback with the bullet. Now it
went. It passed by the firstlumbar vertebrae and it missed
his spinal cord. But then itwent past it and stopped behind
the pancreas. The pancreas gyutoleft because nobody grabbed him
and went to the cab he hadwaiting for him outside. But he

(49:57):
was stopped by a police officerwho took him into custody after
rushing toward it because the heheard the gunshots and Guiteau
surrendered to authoritiesclaiming quote, I want to be
arrested. Arthur is presidentnow for being the vice
president. A crowd was screamingto lynch him but the police
officers took him to a buildinga few blocks away. So President
Garfield actually stayed alivefor a long time after being

(50:19):
shot. He was being treated bydoctors whole time. Of course,
he's the president, they they'regoing to try to keep him alive.
At first, they really thought hewasn't going to survive the day.
But the next day when he wokeup, he was in good spirits. He
seemed to be pretty good. So youknow, their hope for hopeful for
his recovery. They attempted tofind the bullet by probing the
wound with unsterilized fingersand instruments, or yeah, this

(50:42):
of course resulted in the woundbecoming infected. He had a hard
time keeping food down and heactually dropped from 210 pounds
to 130 pounds. Yeah, it did nothelp when he developed sepsis,
and he started havinghallucinations and developed pus
filled abscesses all over hisbody. He eventually succumb to a
ruptured spleen, a splenicartery aneurysm following sepsis

(51:04):
and bronchial pneumonia onSeptember 19 1881, this was 11
weeks after the shots, therewere 79 days between being shot
and dying. So he was there werelots of ups and downs during
this time, it must have beenmiserable. Yeah, it was if
summer two, it was really hot.
And people, you know, germtheory had been. It was around,

(51:28):
it's just that these AmericanAmerican doctors at the time in
this area, they didn't reallyput a lot of faith in it. They
believed in the miasma theoryand that it would come in from
the air rather than germs. So Imean, they were poking and
prodding him in the trainstation with the dirty floor and
all that nature. But he couldn'tsurvive within those conditions
and he did succumb to hiswounds. Most historians now

(51:51):
believe that he would havesurvived the injury with modern
medical care with maybe just twoto three days in the hospital
and then walk downs.

Matthew (51:58):
Teddy. Dang rosemarkie was Teddy Roosevelt would just
pull that ball out himself andwritten his next his personal
speech with his own blood.

Marissa (52:08):
But Guiteau went on trial in November of that year,
it was quite spectacle. Guiteauwas represented by his brother
in law, but was constantlyinsulting his legal team and the
judge, and pretty mucheverybody. He insisted on giving
testimony in the form of longepic poems also nice. He would
also try to solicit advice fromrandom spectators with past
notes. He said that theassassination was the will of

(52:31):
God and he was following it. Hegave the New York Herald an
autobiography and ended up witha personal ad for a nice
Christian lady under 30 yearsold. He sang to the court he was
almost killed himself twice, butwas seemingly oblivious to how
much the public hated

Matthew (52:51):
it sounds like it's that can you with with what's
going on currently with like thetelevised Johnny Depp Amber her?
Yeah, like they can't even get afull sentence out with like,
objection. hearsay, you know,this guy's singing and writing
poetry on the stand like, oh,man, it would have been what? It
would have been way more fun towatch those.

Marissa (53:13):
This isn't this guy was this is why people crowded into

Matthew (53:16):
those those those days crowded into the stuff because
it was a show. That's

Marissa (53:22):
quite a spectacle for sure. He actually said that he
he actually he said that hedidn't kill Garfield, I deny the
killing. If your honor, please,we admit the shooting. Which to
be fair, to be fair, to be fair.
That is kind of true because itseems like the the doctors may
have actually been Oshanadoctors killed him. Exactly. It

(53:45):
was one of the most high profilecases in the US based upon a
claim of temporary insanity.
There you go. Well, well, theyconsidered it Guiteau vehemently
insisted that while he had beenlegally insane at the time of

(54:05):
the shooting because God hadtaken away it's free will he
will not medically insane soyeah, I mean him and his lawyers
didn't really see eye to eye onthis but the judge gave the jury
instructions based on themonotony test so there's that
she talked about earlier. Youknow, you had like the this

(54:26):
alien s came in? Who said that?
Yes. That quote Guiteau is notonly now insane, but that he was
never anything else.

Matthew (54:37):
Yeah, sounds it sounds like pretty much like right from
the RIP just this dude justliving in his living in his own
kingdom. He's

Marissa (54:45):
got his own world for sure. This guy also said he had
no doubt that Guiteau was bothinsane and a moral monstrosity.
Nice. Yeah. He figured thatGuiteau had insane manners,
which he'd observed in asylums.
So he said that this was verysimilar to what he saw, adding
that he was a morbid egotistwith a tendency to misinterpret
the real affairs of life. Butalso, I mean, the DEA of the of

(55:06):
districts that the District ofColumbia said that Guiteau was
no more insane than I am. Sothere was a there's a lot of

Matthew (55:15):
him admitting that he's also insane. Yeah, I think it
was part of his strategy to makesure that the he didn't get the
insanity plea probably.

Marissa (55:22):
Yes, most likely, I would have guessed. But yeah,
Guiteau also sent a letter tonow President Arthur, claiming
that he should set him freebecause he had just increased
Arthur salary by making himpresident Hey, yeah, it's it's
just nuts. Guiteau argued thathe was killed by the bullets,

(55:44):
not by the bullets. But bymedical malpractice. As we said,
he again, he's not wrong. Andwhile he was in prison, and
waiting, awaiting execution, heactually wrote a defense of the
assassination that he hadcommitted, and an account of his
own trial, which he published asthe truth and the removal. This
guy just he had such I don'teven know man, he thought of

(56:06):
himself as such a like hope highprofile figure that he just
wasn't he while he was inprison, he actually objectively
died. Actually, he was makingplans to start a lecture tour
after his perceived imminentrelease, and to run for
president himself.

Matthew (56:22):
I mean, that's how that's I mean, that's a mental
illness is being that level ofdelusional, where you just
assume that the whole world isthe way you want it to be.

Marissa (56:33):
But he was found guilty of sins to die. And after the
guilty verdict was read, hestepped forward and he said, You
are all low consummate jackassesto the jury. Yeah, so it's kind
of crazy. But he also wrote likea lengthy point, asserting that
God had commanded him to killGarfield to prevent Blaine's
Secretary scheming to war withChile and perfect Peru.

Matthew (56:57):
Well, at least he stopped that from happening.
That's why we don't know. Yeah.
Thanks to him. We don't have theAmerican Chile and war.

Marissa (57:07):
That's true. That's true. Thank you. Thank you. No,
but he did. He was the longestsurviving presidential assassin.
Because, you know, theytypically die

Matthew (57:21):
or kill or something pretty quick. But he

Marissa (57:23):
almost was alive for a full year, almost a full year

Matthew (57:26):
after they hadn't come through with the

Marissa (57:30):
Yeah, just the whole trial and everything.

Matthew (57:33):
But well, good. Good on him, I guess.

Marissa (57:36):
Yeah. While he was being led to his execution, he
actually continued to wave andsmile at the spectators. He
danced his way to the gallows.
Nice. Yeah. And he shook handswith his executioner. And, and
on the scaffold that was a lastrequest, he recited a poem
called I am Going to the Lordyto the Lordy. Nice, which he had
written during hisincarceration. He wrote it

(57:58):
himself.

Matthew (58:00):
Of course, this guy this this, he, I mean, this,
this is very reminiscent of lastyear, maybe we'll have to do him
so that we can compare comparethe two but yeah, it's, um, I
mean, think about it. So thatwas what 1881 And now it's 2022.
And we're still talking aboutit. Where's that pistol? What
museums is the dude new?

Marissa (58:21):
Okay, so the pistol though. It was at the
Smithsonian for a long time, andthen it went missing at the
beginning of the 20th century.
Yeah, it's gone. There's apicture of it. Yeah, they, they
photographed it, but that's

Matthew (58:34):
what they do. I mean, he stopped the Chilean war. He
bought a pistol. He said, Thisis gonna look good in the
Smithsonian. I mean, that maybehe was on to something. No, he
wasn't. Oh, man. Oh, no. Tom'sgonna tell

Marissa (58:47):
ya he also. I mean, I'm almost done, I promise. But he
also requested an orchestra bethere as at his hanging wrist
resp. Like he, I told you Irecited a poem, so that he could
sing it with the orchestra inthe background. Yeah, actually.
I know. I know. We really did.
So when he was gonna die. Hetold the executioner that he

(59:08):
would drop a piece of paper, andthen he can hang so after he
finished reading a poem, a blackhood was placed over a smiling
face. And moments later, ofcourse, the trapdoor was sprung
and he died in snapped his neck.

Matthew (59:23):
That is awesome.

Marissa (59:25):
At the time.

Matthew (59:26):
I mean, I know assassins are bad, but let's if
we take the assassin part away,because we can also just chalk
it up to malpractice. He just heinjured a person doctors killed
him he

Marissa (59:38):
did it that guy

Matthew (59:39):
he's the he was the catalyst but still the cattle he
that that guy's awesome.

Marissa (59:46):
They actually at the time, this is a little
interesting tidbit. That is notI guess relayed to the assassin.
But they found out when theyautopsy to him that he was
suffering from something calledphimosis which is basically the
inability to retract theforeskin and they He thought
that was what caused his hisinsanity

Unknown (01:00:03):
was because his penis because he couldn't retract his
foreskin. Yeah.

Marissa (01:00:07):
Well, I mean, that's so can it can you imagine the the
rabbit hole I went down thisepisode.

Matthew (01:00:14):
This was about insanity. And now we're talking
we're ending it on foreskin. SoMcCobb minute, let's get into
the Cue the music. Hopefullythere was music there. No. Do
you know haven't even edited ityet there might be music, there
won't be music, but there mightbe might have been music? Have

(01:00:35):
you ever wondered like I have?
How much force does it take tocrush a human skull?

Marissa (01:00:43):
Not really. But

Matthew (01:00:45):
well, not only have I found that out, which is now
2300 Newtons, which is ameasurement of force. Which
equivalent? It's equivalent of520 pounds. On a quick Google
search.

Marissa (01:01:04):
It doesn't seem like much 520 pounds. I mean,
obviously, it's a lot, but

Matthew (01:01:09):
it is a lot. It is it is, it is a lot. And this is
most of the studies come from abike helmet study where they
took, I think it was a bikehelmets study. They, they had
taken like 15 Dried humanskulls, and then slowly put
static pressure on them, orstatic force on them until until

(01:01:32):
they till they broke. And thatthat's what it comes out to this
some range is in there. Andobviously the size of the skull
made a difference and stuff likethat. But on average, about 520
pounds would do it now to breaklike a human femur takes almost
double that in order to break afemur, which is also
interesting.

Marissa (01:01:53):
This is what happens when you donate your body to
science.

Matthew (01:01:55):
But this is this is this is also a static pressure,
which means it's not like astrike, right. And in
researching how much pressure ittakes to crush a human skull,
what I came came upon most oftenwas articles who are just
pumping out in 2014. Just likeboom, boom, boom, every article

(01:02:17):
is 2014 2014. That's becauseeveryone wants to know, could
the mountain have actually crowdher skull? Because it pops in
Game of Thrones. So now we haveour not movie but TV show
reference. But yeah, so it ahuman cannot put enough static

(01:02:37):
force in to to crush a humanskull. So the mountain could not
actually do that. Because youcan't, you can't like squeeze
together 520 pounds. Ah, this isalso on the temporal lobes. So
the size of the heads crushinginwards from like the temple
area.

Marissa (01:02:57):
I don't know Gregor Maclean's pretty strong. Yeah,
he's

Matthew (01:03:01):
also in a fantasy world where there's dragons, he could
do it. But the guy who playedthe mountain couldn't actually
bid on it. unlikely to be ableto do what the mountain did in
Game of Thrones, which wasstatically crush a person's head
till it pops. But the head doespop once it gives. It just

(01:03:21):
shatters. And normally, itsplits around the suture first,
which is the the you know, wherethe plates used where the plates
fuse together. That is the firstpart that that that begins to
give. And then it actuallyruptures on the inside. And then
that's when it all explodes. SoI don't know, that 520 pounds. I

(01:03:44):
feel like if he was at his primeof strongman, I mean, I've seen
the guy pick up like 1200pounds. I feel like if he had
his body weight on it, you'dprobably crush it also, you
know, static 520. But you know,you can kind of pulse it a
little bit. Get a little at thevery end. I think he could

(01:04:07):
probably do it. Anyway. Sothat's here nor there. That was
our McCobb minute 520 poundsbreaking human skull, about 900
to snap a femur under staticpressure. That will do it for us
today. Thank you for joining us.
As always, you can reach us onTwitter and Facebook at
Macabrepedia

Marissa (01:04:29):
and on Instagram at Macabrepediapod. We are also on
Pinterest now. One pin up sofar, but you know, whatever. We
are on Pinterest. It'sMacabrepediapod or Macabrepedia.

Matthew (01:04:44):
Which is it? You gotta tell them Macabrepedia Okay, and
we have a Gmail to you.

Marissa (01:04:49):
We do [e-mail] Hey,
there we go.

Matthew (01:04:53):
And thank you for joining us and huge shout out
and thank you to all For ourpatrons over on Patreon slash
Macabrepedia $5 gets you alittle extra content we just
posted. A little kind of behindthe scenes kind of 30 minute ish

(01:05:15):
episode of getting getting toknow Marissa has hobbies a
little bit more. Check out checkthat out. If you would like to,
if you are not in a positionwhere you would like to
financially support our effortshere, that is perfectly fine.
But if you could like andcomment, give us a review over

(01:05:38):
on Spotify and Apple or whateveryour pod catcher is that you can
do such things that would behugely appreciated. Also, please
share, we will let you go now.
Thank you so much. And join usnext week as we add another
entry into this our Macabrepedia