August 22, 2022 • 50 mins
H.H. Holmes (real name Herman Webster Mudgett) was an American con artist, bigamist, and serial murderer. His gruesome deeds made him famous, and the newspapers expanded that fame. People know the story of his murder castle, where gruesome tortures, dissections, and murders supposedly took place. But when you look at the story as a whole, what is actually true, and what is the result of yellow journalism? Join us as we add another entry into this, our Macabrepedia.
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Matthew (00:00):
Macabrepedia makes light of dark subject matters
(00:03):
and may not be suitable for allaudiences. Listener discretion
is advised.
Marissa (00:20):
burned alive with blow torches in the wall, a crematory
in the basement shelves full ofacids to disintegrate a body.
Boiling a man alive and oilsuffocating with chloroform.
hidden rooms well sealed windowsto eight easy suffocation
laundry chutes that were used totransport bodies of the
basement, dissections, graverobbing black market, Oregon
(00:43):
selling these are all part ofthe law that has grown around a
man who was born Herman Webster,Majid. The Chicago chronicle
condemned him as quote, a multimurderer, big A mist seducer,
resurrection, earnest forgerthief and general swindler, and
as a man without parallel in theannals of crime. Many of the
(01:06):
facts around these murders arenow considered to be false,
concocted by yellow journalismto sell more papers. But the
fact remains that he certainlydid kill many people, often for
life insurance payouts, someprobably accidentally, and some
to keep his other crimes hidden.
This American tall tale was spunfrom more than just a few
(01:28):
kernels of truth. And whileHerman Webster Mudgett did many
things terrible and evil. Theworld does not remember his
name. instead. They remember hisMurder Castle and a pseudonym,
the man himself concocted HenryHoward or HH Holmes Join us as
we add another entry into thisour Macabrepedia
Matthew (01:58):
Hello, and welcome to Macabrepedia a marriage of true
crime and the truly bizarre weare your hosts Matthew and
Marissa. And today it soundslike we are going into the dark
side of Neverland Ranch. What?
What are what are we talkingabout that?
Marissa (02:16):
Alright, well, we I figured for our 50th episode, we
could do some one of the bigones you know Jack the Ripper,
HH Holmes yada yada. But the50th episode was actually mid
series when we were doing this atenant packet panic. So this is
actually episode 52.
Matthew (02:35):
Okay, so the 52/52 episode that makes it feel like
it's the one year anniversaryepisode. Yeah. If we had done
them all once a week, but we'veskipped a few weeks.
Marissa (02:51):
Yeah, not many, but we have. But anyway. So first off,
and as I mentioned in the coldopen HH Holmes was not actually
named HH Holmes the HH stood forHenry Howard homes, but he had
many aliases in addition tothat, but his birth name was
Herman Webster, Majid,
Matthew (03:08):
which is a better serial killer name.
Marissa (03:12):
Yeah, it really is.
Just sounds creepy.
Matthew (03:15):
Majid demodulator I don't have any further jokes on
that. Okay.
Marissa (03:24):
So Born May 16 1861. In gilmanton, New Hampshire. Herman
was the absolute middle child offive siblings born to a fairly
wealthy family. Other sourcessay he had two siblings other
say four or another say three,but let's just say he had four.
He was the fifth.
Matthew (03:44):
Okay, just to really hammer home a middle middle
child.
Marissa (03:48):
That's what I got from that.
Matthew (03:50):
You also said like New Hampshire, like there has never
been someone in New Hampshirecapable of doing this
Marissa (03:55):
New Hampshire is a nice state.
Matthew (03:59):
Just like he's from all places, New Hampshire. Can you
imagine New Hampshire?
Marissa (04:04):
I know.
Matthew (04:05):
We have five, five episodes on murderers from
Massachusetts,
Marissa (04:10):
and we do plenty in New England but not New Hampshire,
New Hampshire. He had a prettystandard childhood by most
accounts, though some do saythat it was maybe not so
standard that there'sconflicting accounts here. Some
say that he tortured and abusedanimals or that he was abused by
his father. There is no proof ofthis, but who was to say based
(04:31):
upon what he would do later. Andto get away from his parents. He
would often read popular novelsof the era or he would hide in
the woods. He would one littlethings that that he would keep
and treasure one of his ownteeth that he kept in a box. You
know, whatever, for
Matthew (04:47):
his whole life when he was a
Marissa (04:48):
kid. Oh, it's not that weird when you're a kid, I
guess. But um, so
Matthew (04:53):
you never kept your tooth when you found out the
Tooth Fairy wasn't real. Um,spoiler sorry. A lead digitally,
Marissa (05:00):
allegedly. No, I never did. But I guess it was just
because I wasn't weird when Iwas a kid. I have now but it
wasn't that.
Matthew (05:09):
I mean, I didn't I don't consider. I mean, I don't
as a person who has done that. Ididn't I don't consider that to
be that weird. Let us know ifyou
Marissa (05:18):
or if you've collected body parts.
Matthew (05:21):
Yeah. Do you keep your own peeled scabs and teeth into
a little box?
Marissa (05:25):
I mean, I know my mom did. She kept my teeth. Oh,
Matthew (05:27):
I thought you're gonna say your mom kept the boxes.
scabs.
Marissa (05:29):
Oh, no horrible, you know, which didn't
Matthew (05:33):
keep my team taking little nibbles. You okay, that's
that's a joke from anothercomedian. I have no idea. I
can't remember who it was. Okay,well, George Carlin thinks
George Carlin.
Marissa (05:49):
I don't know. I'll just have to. I don't know.
Matthew (05:51):
I'm just saying. I don't don't ask me about the
fact that I recycled somebodyelse's jokes. I'm not really
that funny.
Marissa (05:59):
So anyway, when he was a kid, he was often bullied. One
time he was even locked in adoctor's office with a human
skeleton by his classmates, andhe was terrified. And this grew
into a fascination with deadthings and dissections. He was
he was genuinely terrified ofthe skeleton, like he was super
scared. So I guess that justmanifested into an interest
(06:21):
later.
Matthew (06:21):
Oh goodness.
Marissa (06:23):
So when Herman was 16 years old, he graduated from
Phillips Exeter Academy. Thenext year, he met and married
Clara Lovering, and they had achild the next year, a son named
Robert lowering budget. Hermannenrolled in the University of
Vermont, in Burlington, and heapprenticed under a guy named
named Wright, who was a humandissection advocate, but he
(06:44):
didn't really care for it there.
So he dropped out and then heenrolled in the University of
Michigan's Department ofMedicine and Surgery. While
there, he was pretty mediocrestudent but this allowed him to
work with the chief anatomyInstructure instructor,
Professor William James Hurdman,and they collaborate
collaborated to rob Fresh, freshgraves, searching for fresh
corpses to dissect at themedical school. They would rob
(07:06):
the graves and sell the bodies
Matthew (07:09):
right. We've covered resurrection this. Yeah, we
Marissa (07:12):
haven't covered Herman doing it.
Matthew (07:15):
I know. I'm saying for your audience, they can go back
and listen, we have Yeah, likethat. That behavior was fairly
common.
Marissa (07:23):
Oh, yeah. At this time, it was. Herman did end up
graduating from there in 1884.
But it was a close thing becausehe was almost stopped from
graduating when a widowedhairdresser came forward and
said that he had made a falsepromise of marriage to her. Was
this something why would thatstop him from graduate? I don't
know. I don't know that yougraduate based on
Matthew (07:45):
on character.
Marissa (07:46):
I mean, I guess it did include his character but I
don't know
Matthew (07:50):
he's, he's still he's still in bodies. Well, and it's
and that that that's just turneda blind eye but you said you
like
Marissa (07:59):
medical school, they had to have bodies they always
did that.
Matthew (08:02):
I know what I'm saying like, he's stealing bodies and
that's okay. But promising ahairdresser for a date and not
fulfilling it is grounds for notbeing able to graduate just
saying
Marissa (08:18):
Wild Times. During this time, he toted around Claire and
Robert roommates describedRobert were the two corpses that
you know, his wife and child
Matthew (08:30):
who are living life and
Marissa (08:34):
roommates describe their relationship as violent,
with Herman being very angry andaggressive toward Clara. And she
eventually just got really tiredof this and left moving back to
New Hampshire. She claimed laterthat she rarely saw him
afterwards. So they were stillmarried. But she just never
really saw him after that afterthis. But it's probably good for
the child. Oh, maybe. Now heended up fine. He was he's he
(08:59):
ended up being perfectly normal.
Fine guy. Okay. I'm just saying
Matthew (09:04):
story. You're gonna tell us more details of that.
Marissa (09:06):
Well, yeah, but not now. He traveled to
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, andhe got a job at Norristown State
Hospital.
Matthew (09:12):
Right. We're talking we're going back to murder man.
Marissa (09:16):
We're going back to murder man. Herman
Matthew (09:19):
budget. Yeah, Permin monster now.
Marissa (09:23):
But he quit after just a few days. And he felt it
wasn't quite right for him. Sothen he got a job at a drugstore
in Philadelphia. And while hewas there, a boy died after
taking medicine that waspurchased from there. Hermann
denied tampering with themedicine and denied any
involvement, but he immediatelyleft the city. At this point, he
changed his name to avoid beingrecognized by previous victims
(09:44):
of his various and sundry scams.
He did this a few times.
Actually. He had many aliases,as a walker
Matthew (09:50):
will hold on. So this kid dies can take a medicine
that he prescribed or theprescribed prescription for
whatever and And then he dipsout of town. I mean, that makes
sense. But what are the otherscams? This is like the I'm
Marissa (10:08):
gonna get to the scams, okay? Because he's escaping
scams. I
Matthew (10:12):
don't know the scams is that a scam? So
Marissa (10:15):
a lot of it was life insurance fraud. He would, he
would he would dig up corpsesand then use them as dead bodies
of people taking life insurancepolicies out on so that he could
get the insurance payout.
Matthew (10:29):
So he digs up a body says, Hey, this is so and so.
Yeah, this is yeah. This isMarissa here. As you see this is
Marissa is life insurance.
Really? That's not Marissa.
Marissa (10:42):
Yeah, he was he was a big insurance fraudster, for
sure. And he's just a great guy,
Matthew (10:49):
entrepreneur.
Marissa (10:52):
So in 1886, he moved to Chicago. Hold on,
Matthew (10:57):
on the insurance fraud.
We've also covered people who doinsurance fraud stuff. And the
way he's doing it is the bestway so far. Everybody knows he's
not killing the person to getinsurance. He's, he's claiming
that this person has insuranceto our
Marissa (11:15):
knowledge. He didn't, because he lied a lot. But to
our knowledge, he didn't killanybody to do well. Okay, at
this point at this point intime, yes.
Matthew (11:25):
Spoiler pickins.
Marissa (11:28):
So he moved to Chicago at six and this is when he
became known as Henry HowardHolmes. So obviously, HH Holmes
This is when he adopts thatname. And in 1886, while he is
still technically married toClara, he married a woman named
Mirta Belkin up in Minneapolis,Minnesota. A few weeks after
this, he tried to file fromdivorced for divorce from Clara,
(11:50):
saying that infidelity on herpart was the reason tracks went
up. Because these claimscouldn't be proven. They didn't
go anywhere, and they remainedlegally married. So at this
point, he's committing bigamy,but whatever.
Matthew (12:05):
So but does he is but he does actually legally marry
her. So he has his wife's nameis murder budget.
Marissa (12:12):
Well, it would be murder Holmes at this point.
Matthew (12:15):
Yeah, but technically, I'll tell you. It's murder.
Murder. Mudgett. The wife of amurderer.
Marissa (12:22):
Yeah. But they I mean, she thinks she's married to him
legally, but he's alreadymarried. So she can't be.
Matthew (12:31):
I thought it was funny.
It's
Marissa (12:33):
funny. So because of these claims, that couldn't be
proven this didn't go anywhere.
They remained legally married.
Holmes ended up having adaughter with murder who was
named Lucy Thea date Holmes inChicago in 1889. We're gonna say
something. Cynthia day, the datagood name.
Matthew (12:51):
So interesting name.
And most of us have some kind ofhistory to
Marissa (12:55):
it. I don't know. It's good name. No, he spent much of
his time in Chicago with Martaand Lucy attending to business.
But he also married a womannamed Georgie on a yoke in 1894
in Denver, Colorado. So he's nowmarried to three women, the last
two unknowingly to the womenwere unlawful. So point being
this is a very charismatic andcharming man, and he had many
(13:19):
mistresses and fiance's inaddition to these three women,
so he's very popular with theladies. When Holmes moved to
Chicago, he happened to go intoElizabeth South Elizabeth eth s
Hilton's drugstore, which wasthe corner of West 63rd street
and South Wallace Avenue. Shetook a liking to him, and she
(13:39):
offered him a job. Holmes didprove to be an excellent
employee, and he even eventuallybought the store from them. He
also purchased an empty lot thatwas across from the drugstore,
and began construction in thatlot in 1887. For a two story
building that would be bothapartments on the second floor,
and a retail drugstore on thefirst floor. So the construction
(14:01):
on this new building was notwithout some problems. One of
homes creditors died in thestore in 1891 of apoplexy.
apoplexy. And yeah, I'll get youevery time. He was also sued by
some architects and the Aetnairon and steel company when he
refused to pay them for the workthat they had done. Also
something that comes up prettycommonly. He added a third floor
(14:23):
to the building in 1892, tellingvarious investors and creditors
that he was planning to use itfor the upcoming World's
Columbian expedition. TheWorld's Fair. Yeah, this was
never fully completed, though.
It was partially finished withthree stories in a basement, and
it was definitely used as ahotel for a period for these
people who were coming to visit.
one of if not the earliestvictims was a woman named Joyce
(14:47):
Julia Smyth. Smyth was the wifeof Ned Connor, but also she was
Holmes's mistress. Yeah, NedConnor had been working at homes
as pharmacies jewelry counter,but He quit and moved away after
finding out about his wife'saffair with homes. And this left
Smyth and her daughter Pearlstaying with homes with whom she
(15:07):
continued the relationship.
Julia and Pearl both disappearedon Christmas Eve 1891 and were
never seen again. Homes claimedthat Julia had died during an
abortion, but later claimed thathe had poisoned pearl to hide
the mother's death. It's unclearif Holmes tried to perform the
abortion himself. He did have alittle medical training, though
(15:29):
not at all remotely close tothat. Yeah, I
Matthew (15:32):
feel like he thought it was a pretty easy procedure.
Marissa (15:34):
Maybe but it wasn't great. Apparently. That was his
story if it even happened likethat. A partial skeleton was
found when excavating Holmes'scellar. Possibly a child. Pearls
father, Ned was a key witnessand Holmes is trial for this.
Which we'll get to his triallater. But yeah, that's gotta be
(15:56):
terrible. You know, your wife,you know, cheats on you. So you
just leave and you leave yourdaughter because she's with her
mother and then you find outthat daughter dies.
Matthew (16:06):
That's terrible. Yeah.
And buried in a basementsomewhere.
Marissa (16:10):
Another woman disappeared in May of 1892.
Emily's the grant. She'd beenworking in the building. And
rumors after the womandisappearing claim that she had
been pregnant by Holmes,possibly a victim of another
failed abortion. This dude. Allthe ladies. He's telling you.
Another young woman vanishedfrom Holmes's building where she
(16:32):
works named where he where sheworks named Emily Van Tassel. No
knowledge if she was, you know,saying hammer not. Holmes was
working at the Chemical Bankbuilding when he became close
with a guy named Benjaminpizzelle. Potential sorry, a
carpenter. Benjamin had acriminal past but was trying to,
you know, kind of make somethingof himself and he he became he
(16:54):
was trying to show off somethinghe invented but he also just
became close friends with Holmesat this point. But Tesla was
described as Holmes's right handman and his quote, creature, as
a district attorney later
Matthew (17:06):
said, Nice he got it and got him got himself and Igor
straight
Marissa (17:11):
up fee or Yeah, a woman named Minnie Williams moved to
Chicago and met Holmes, heoffered her a job at the hotel
as a stenographer. So sheaccepted. He actually convinced
her to transfer the deed of herproperty in Fort Worth, Texas.
So a guy named Alexandra bond.
And Alexandra Bond was justanother alias for Holmes. Holmes
actually actually does thenotary to transfer the property
(17:33):
to him. So, yeah, I don't knowif she actually knew that that
was him. But yeah,
Matthew (17:42):
telling you, man, this guy's got an entrepreneurial
spirit. He definitely did. Andhe must be, I mean, the stache
alone oozes with charisma.
Marissa (17:51):
I mean, he's one of them. He's not bad looking man.
But but the pricing
Matthew (17:55):
it's it's more than just his looks like this. Do she
is able to convince people ofsome stuff.
Marissa (18:00):
Yeah. All the best criminal do best in quotations?
Matthew (18:04):
Yeah. I mean, I guess
Marissa (18:07):
Yeah. So anyway, homes and many rented an apartment in
Chicago acting as husband andwife and her sister Annie came
to visit them. But then shortlythereafter, neither woman was
ever seen alive after July 4,July 5 at 93. Weird, super
weird. She wasn't even the onlystenographer of homes who went
(18:27):
missing. woman named Kitty Kellyalso went missing missing in
1892. And then between 1891 and1893, six other people vanished.
Holmes is suspected to havekilled them all. Dr. rustler,
who had an office in Holmes'sbuilding went missing in 1892,
John G. David of Greenville,Pennsylvania, visited the
(18:48):
World's Fair and then vanished.
Henry Walker of Greensburg,Indiana, went missing in
November 8 93. Henry Walkerallegedly insured his life for
$20,000 to homes and written tohis friends that he was working
for him before he disappeared.
Matthew (19:03):
Insured his life to to his employer. Yeah.
Marissa (19:07):
Yeah, well, actually, I read that. And I don't know if
this is true, because a lot ofthis is maybe true, maybe not.
But I read that
Matthew (19:18):
whole supposed to be true crime. There's a lot of
gray
Marissa (19:21):
area in the story.
There's a lot of different likeversions of the story paths that
it takes. But I read thatactually a condition of
employment for homes was to makea to take out a life insurance
policy and make him thebeneficiary. Yeah, nice. I don't
know. Milford Cole of Baltimore,Maryland received a telegram
from homes to go to Chicago, andshe did in July 1894. before
(19:43):
disappearing. Lucy Burbankbankbook was found in Holmes's
castle in 1895 and was likelyanother victim. Holmes claimed
an insurance policy on the hotelafter a fire but the insurance
companies Thought he was atfault went wrong and attempted
to prosecute him for arson,which is when Holmes left
(20:05):
Chicago.
Matthew (20:08):
That's also something that's like the insurance
companies get him get a probablyassume that
Marissa (20:15):
you're not going to just pay out without question.
So this is July 18 94. Busy,busy, very busy few days, a few
years here. This is also when hewas arrested for the first time
and jailed briefly for sellingmortgage goods in St. Louis. He
was bailed out fairly quickly.
But he made a new acquaintance,maned Marian Hedgepeth. This
(20:38):
guy, he just made friendseverywhere. He's a likable dude.
So Marian hedge path with withwhom he planned to swindle an
insurance company out of $10,000by faking his own death, of
which alias? Yeah, no, right.
Matthew (20:57):
Oh, I could die like six times gonna be great.
Marissa (20:59):
So much money. He promised Hedgepeth that he would
give him $500 If he would supplythe name of a lawyer he could
trust. And Hedgepeth gave himthe name jetset Jeff Theia. How
never heard that name. It's goodname Jeptha. Anyway, he was
(21:21):
definitely on board with thescheme. And he agreed to help.
However, the plan didn't workout because the insurance
company became suspicious andrefused to pay. I mean, yeah,
he's not actually did. So afterhe decided to leave Chicago,
this is when he went to FortWorth where remember he now
owned property for many Williamswho had signed it over to him.
(21:44):
When he got there, he startedover and began building another
structure. But again, he didn'tpay the people who did the work.
So any contractors, suppliersetc. They didn't get paid for
the work that they did. WhenHolmes's scheme to fake his own
death for insurance moneyfailed, he in his right hand
man's potential came up with anew plan. Potential agreed to
(22:06):
fake his own death so that hiswife could get $10,000 in
insurance money, with theagreement that this money would
then be split between both homesand potential. The plan was for
potential to go to Philadelphiaand pretend to be an inventor
named B. F. Perry. Where hewould be killed and importantly
disfigured in a lab explosion.
Matthew (22:29):
There you go. All right. All right.
Marissa (22:32):
Holmes his job in this was to find a cadaver that
resembled a Tesla enough that itcould be mistaken for him with a
few dis figurations. But Holmeswas not to be trusted. Surprise,
surprise. He later confessedthat he knocked potential
unconscious with chloroform andset his body on fire with
benzene, a colorless and highlyflammable liquid.
Matthew (22:54):
And he said, I have just the corpse. Yeah, I know.
Don't you worry, it's gonna Noone is.
Marissa (23:03):
Holmes would say that potential was still alive when
he set him on fire. But forensicevidence later showed that the
chloroform had been used afterhis death, not before. And this
was speculated that it was toimply suicide that at home so
that Holmes could not beconvicted just in case he was
charged. But as his wife was iton this, she the murder person
(23:26):
she was in on the insurancefraud scheme. So this is also
how he was able to convince herthat he was still alive. So
after potential died, Holmescollected the $10,000 insurance
payout. Since potential hadtruly died, there weren't that
many questions, I guess. He thensomehow convinced potentials
widow to take to place three ofher five children in his care.
(23:51):
This was Alice, Nellie andHoward. Holmes would travel with
these three children throughoutthe northern us and into Canada.
But meanwhile, he alsoseparately would be escorting
Mrs. P. Edsel. Also lying to herabout where Piazza was, he
claimed that he was hiding outin London. And he also lied
about the whereabouts for otherthree children, which were in
(24:13):
some cases only a few blocksaway from her. Wow. Yeah.
completely unknown to her andthat's truly tragic. Holmes
spoiler, Holmes later convincedconfessed to killing Alice
Nellie by forcing them into alarge trunk and locking them
inside. He then drilled a holeinto the lid of the trunk and
(24:33):
put one end of a hole throughit, attaching the other into a
gas line. asphyxiating thegirls. He then buried their nude
bodies in the cellar of a rentalhome in Toronto. And then he
went to Indianapolis andpurchased drugs at a pharmacy to
kill Howard. Which whose body hecaught up and burned. Oh, wow.
Yeah, I mean, Piazza wasactually his. I mean, he was he
(24:56):
was called his right hand manhis creature for a reason and
And none of that loyalty wasrepaid at all. Obviously, he was
killed and his children werekilled. I mean, people speculate
he did this to try to cover uphis crime. But I don't know
about that, because the eldestdaughter was not placed in his
care. Who would you think bemore aware of what was going on?
Matthew (25:18):
I mean, the guy they got, I mean, in a way, it seems
like the guy knows what he'sdoing. I mean, and I mean, to
get away with it effectively,like, I mean, I'm assuming this,
the all of these things thatyou're you're talking about are
coming out. After he gets caughtfor something. Yeah. Like, it's
(25:38):
not like they're chasing himafter like finding these things.
No, no, not really. Yeah. Whichmeans that he was the was pretty
smooth until he wasn't. Yeah,
Marissa (25:48):
I mean, they started to get suspicious. Authorities got
suspicious of him, but he gotaway with it for a while. I
don't know, smoke, I guess.
Finally, on November 17 1894. InBoston, the Pinkerton national
detective agency arrestedHolmes. He was held in custody
for suspected horse theft.
Matthew (26:11):
What? Yep, that
Marissa (26:15):
happens a lot, though.
You know, they they thinksomebody's done something
terrible, and then get them on asmaller crime and hold them for
a while. Holmes had stolenhorses from Texas, shipped them
to St. Louis, and then sold themmaking a fortune but the
authorities were suspicious offormer.
Matthew (26:29):
But this is still again, it's all at 94 at this
time. Yeah. I know. Dude is justlike, how many hours in the day
is this dude have to dedicate toso many stones? Yeah, just so
many just criminal activities.
Marissa (26:46):
The bodies of the two girls would later be found by
Frank Guyer, a Philadelphiapolice detective. They were
decomposing at this point. Andhe would say that, quote, The
deeper we dug, the more horriblethe odor became. And when we
reached the depth of three feet,we discovered what appeared to
be the bone of the of a forearmof a human being. And then later
went, Geiger went and found theboy's teeth and bits of his
(27:07):
bones in the chimney of a homethat Holmes had rented in
Indianapolis.
Matthew (27:12):
Why? Why what? Why would he do that? Why would he
put the teeth in a chimney?
Marissa (27:18):
I'm guessing he tried to burn the evidence.
Matthew (27:21):
Oh, yeah. Yes, I'm thinking chimney as it led to
chimney shoot. Like he's like,like, it's up top, rather than
just like, and you know, and thepart where you put like the wood
or the coal or whatever. Thatmakes more sense to find it
there.
Marissa (27:36):
After guy are found these bodies. They naturally
went to Holmes's castle inChicago and they'll over to
other sources say that they didfind a lot there. Surprisingly,
they really didn't find anyevidence that they could use
there or maybe they just didn'tuse it because they already had
him on some other stuff.
Matthew (27:53):
Well, that's well, yeah, that that that's another
tactic that we've kind of seenpreviously in this time period.
But also you get it you get themone at a time so that you can
try them and try and try and trythem. But yeah, I mean he's
known for the he's known for theMurder Castle it's weird that
they that that's like the waythat you present it as like an
(28:14):
afterthought
Marissa (28:17):
Well, it's because it's exaggerated that's that's
Matthew (28:21):
that's like the thing that he's known knowns having
this Murder Castle and
Marissa (28:24):
yellow journalism it just sensationalized the whole
thing and made it out to be somuch more than it was. But the
Murder House was gutted by afire shortly after Holmes was
arrested, unknown arsonist thatthe said that two guys were
spotted leaving after that placewas set on fire. But I mean, he
(28:46):
was still alive at this pointHolmes was. So it was right
after he was arrested and it wasjust gutted by fire. All the
evidence, I guess destroyedbetter. No. They don't. They
never found that people who didit. The building was actually
used as a post office until1938. After that. Yeah, so in
October 1895, Holmes was put ontrial for the murder of Benjamin
Benjamin puzzle. Hey, suppose agood friend and right hand man.
(29:09):
Holmes represented himself as atthe trial showing, of course he
did. Yeah, of course, remarkablefamiliarity with the law.
However, his charm was not quiteenough for the jurors, and he
was unanimously found guilty andsentenced to death by hanging.
It was clear, Holmes had alsomerged all three of the children
that have been placed in hischarge homes, then confessed to
(29:31):
27 murders in Chicago,Indianapolis and Toronto, and
six attempted murders.
Matthew (29:38):
Thing is tempted. Yeah, who got away?
Marissa (29:41):
I don't know. I don't have that because they were just
attempted and he confessed tothem. And the thing is, maybe it
Matthew (29:49):
was like, he just was he told them like nobody even
realized that he had tried toYeah, they're like, he tried to
kill me.
Marissa (29:55):
Well, also though, some of these people that he
confessed to murder were We'restill alive.
Matthew (30:02):
Oh, he gets he wants to do it so much money. Yeah, we're
confused. Yeah, I
Marissa (30:06):
mean, why did he do this? It's unknown. But he was
paid $7,500 by the Hearstnewspaper for his confession.
But I mean, he's in jail at thispoint. Yeah. The truth is we
have no idea how many peopleHolmes killed, most likely
somewhere between nine and 200,which I know is a huge range.
(30:27):
Thanks for ya know, every sourceis like, oh, it's between nine
and 200. Okay,
Matthew (30:32):
between nine and 200.
Yeah, that means you candefinitely say nine. Yes, but
you can also just anybody diedbetween 1884 or 1882 and 1885.
It was probably killed by him.
Marissa (30:47):
Shortly before his death, he commented that he was
turning into the devil. Even hisface, according to him was
taking on a demonic look.
Matthew (30:54):
That's when he curled his mustache. Yeah.
Marissa (30:58):
So may 7 1896. Holmes was hailed hanged at the
Philadelphia County Prison forpotentials murder, he went to
the gallows rather nonchalant.
He showed few signs of fear andanxiety, and he remained calm
throughout the process. However,he did ask that his coffin be
covered in cement and buried 10feet deep, probably because he
was concerned that people woulddo to him what he had done to
(31:21):
others and grow up his grave. Sowhen Holmes dropped from the
gallows, he did not dieimmediately. Rather, his neck
did not break, which was common,but he did not. He slowly
strangled to death twitching forover 15 minutes. He was
pronounced dead after 20 minutesof hanging from the rope. And
his body was in turn into anunmarked grave and eat in
(31:42):
Pennsylvania. There's just somuch about the story. That or
that that's exaggerated andmythical and mysterious.
Matthew (31:53):
But the truth can be found in an episode of
Supernatural which is adocumentary that takes place in
real time. And you can find itthere
Marissa (32:08):
so there are there are some things which I'll touch on
here that there okay, so shortlyafter he moved to New York, a
rumor spread that he had beenseen with a little boy who
disappeared. So this was anotherpossible suspect or a possible
murder victim, homeless claimedthat the boy something went back
(32:28):
to homes and Massachusetts, wedon't know. You can at that time
in a period in time, it's likeyou look them up on Facebook,
you know, just and they wenthome. Okay, you know, it's
pretty far away to find out sohomes also lied a lot about who
he killed for reasons only knownto him. He claimed that he had
killed a former classmate,Robert Lee caulk for insurance
money. But it is an undisputedfact that Lee Cox actually died
(32:53):
three years after Holmes said hekilled him and in Ontario,
Canada. So I just lied. Yeah.
Yeah, there. There's also a myththat homes killed Elizabeth
Holton and her husband. They'rethe ones who own the drugstore
in Chicago when he first movedthere already worked out. He
bought their drugstore. But it'svery unlikely that they actually
(33:13):
killed them. Both of the homesactually outlived homes staying
in Chicago.
Matthew (33:20):
So of course, okay. If, if, if they both outlived him,
then clearly he didn't killthem.
Marissa (33:26):
Yeah, no, but people like to say that he you know,
that's that's one of the thingsthat he killed his employers.
And yeah, he
Matthew (33:31):
had, he had a very, very slow acting poison.
Marissa (33:36):
Yeah, he bought the drugstore from them. And people
say that he also killed them.
But that's not likely to be thecase. So it counts report that
homes built this hotel portionto lower interest that he could
kill, taking advantage of thenearby World's Fair. That's a
lot of the mythology around himthat, you know, he just built
this to bring in tourists thathe could just kill, you know,
(33:57):
the story goes that he plannedto murder them and sell their
bodies or just their skeletonsto a nearby medical school. But
there's no evidence of this. Inreality, it is sensationalist
drama, though it's hard to sayfor sure. It's likely that
Holmes personally knew each ofhis victims, rather than being
strangers who came in for anovernight. He certainly did sell
cadavers and skeletons tomedical schools. That's
(34:20):
absolutely true. But he alsolikely did this through grave
robbing, and not outrightmurder. And as I said, I mean,
supposedly, he also required hisemployees to carry life
insurance policies. With him asthe beneficiary. Yeah,
Matthew (34:35):
I mean, if you have a body count that could go up to
200 It sounds like he's killinga lot of people, but also for
some of these other things. Itsounds like he's, he's not like,
I don't know. It seems like he'sdoing a lot less homicidal ways
like
Marissa (34:52):
crime, but not necessarily murder. I mean, you
did murder he might
Matthew (34:56):
have just wanted to be a famous person. Yeah,
Marissa (34:58):
maybe He also had a one story factory that he claimed
was used for glass bending, butits own unknown if it was
actually ever used for that.
It's speculated that thisfactory was used to destroy
evidence of his crimes.
Matthew (35:12):
Because it would have like furnaces.
Marissa (35:13):
Yeah. Patrick Quinlan, the former caretaker of the
castle, died by suicide in 1914.
And left a one sentence note, Icould not sleep I thought was
just interesting. I mean, it wasyears later, but he knew he knew
the castle better than anyoneand gnomes on a lot of ways. So
finally, the most famous part ofhis story is his Murder Castle,
(35:36):
with a name given to his hotel.
The papers claimed this buildinghad over 100 rooms laid out like
a maze with trap doors, gaschambers, secret torture
chambers, and even a basementcrematorium. The rooms
supposedly had doors that openedinto a wall, windowless rooms,
dead in staircases, and more.
Beside a blood soaked operatingtable, they found a woman's
(36:00):
clothes. Another another sourcesaid that, beside a blood soaked
operating table, they found awoman's clothes and other
surgical surface was nearby anda crematory lots of medical
tools, a bizarre torture deviceand shelves of acids.
Matthew (36:18):
Bizarre torture device, yeah, doesn't specify
Marissa (36:22):
Holmes's fascination with dead bodies had apparently
long lasted, but lasted longpast college. But again, I mean,
this doesn't line up with a lotof the story. So I don't know
that this is necessarily true.
This is more of a sensationalistpart of it. They also said that
he would drop victims down thelaundry chutes, dissect them and
(36:43):
then clean them and sell theirorgans and skeletons to medical
institutions or on the blackmarket. I don't think this
happened from what I've read.
But that is the story thateverybody focuses on. I mean, a
lot of the stories when I wasdoing this, a lot of them are
actually report all that as afact. But it's only maybe just
(37:05):
in recent years when people havereally thought about it and just
think think that this is nottrue, but you
Matthew (37:12):
can't just change it. I mean, if it's, but I mean if
like if it's if it's if it'sbeen reported, this fact report
reported this fact, and thenlike, what 100 years later,
you're like, you know what? Nah,nah, I don't know. That wasn't
fact. Yeah. Do you have to havesome kind of evidence to back
that up?
Marissa (37:30):
Well, the papers, the papers at the time, absolutely.
Made that seem just like thishorrendous murder factory
almost. And they they put uplike, diagrams of the layout of
the hotel and stuff that you cansee online. But it doesn't, I
mean, again, the hotel wasburned, you know, it was burned,
(37:52):
it was pretty much gutted. Andthen it was tore down in 1938. I
believe. So we can't say forsure. But every source kind of
makes it seem like what theyhave reported is not quite
Matthew (38:03):
true. Well, I mean, you said it was it acted as opposed
to office till 1930. So I mean,I don't think it's going to be
amazed with trapdoors, and allthat stuff,
Marissa (38:14):
right. And there were actually some, like hidden
rooms, or the reason for it wasbecause Holmes was really bad at
paying his creditors. So hewould buy furniture, and then
when they came to repossess itbecause he didn't pay them, he
would hide it in these rooms.
Yes. So that was, that was whyhe had these rooms. But yeah, I
don't know that lots ofskepticism in recent years. The
(38:35):
building, as I said, completelydemolished in 1938, which is
when of course, I stopped actingas a post office. But it was it
was gone at that point. Homesaid, quote, I was born with the
devil in me. I could not helpthe fact that I was a murderer,
no more than the poet could helpthe inspiration to sing. No,
Matthew (38:56):
he was an artiste. No, he was a psychopath.
Marissa (39:00):
He was a psychopath.
Some actually believe that hewas friends, and maybe even
mentored Jack the Ripper. Iknow,
Matthew (39:09):
golly, kill nobody in the 1880s with
Marissa (39:12):
Jack Welch. It was around the same time. So I'm
saying this was owing in part tosome diary entries, where he
spoke of killing prostitutes inLondon. This Okay, these diary
entries are. Well, his grandsonhad some had some journals that
he said he inherited from hisgrandfather. And he did have
them supposedly analyzed byhandwriting analysis experts who
(39:36):
concluded that they belonged toHH Holmes. The grandson claims
that HH Holmes convinced someoneelse to go to the gallows for
him something that contributedto the body being exhumed and
tested in 2017 to make sure thatit was him. It was him. Oh, it
was actually remarkably wellpreserved, I guess because it
(39:56):
had been encased in concrete
Unknown (39:58):
and locked in. Well, Well,
Marissa (40:01):
there's a lot of reason to doubt the veracity of these
claims. But, you know, that's atale for another time perhaps.
So his son was Clara Robert, whoI spoke about earlier. He became
a city manager of Orlando,Florida. So he seemed to be well
adjusted. His daughter
Matthew (40:20):
Orlando, Florida has a bunch of secret hidey holes
committed as Florida after all
Marissa (40:27):
his daughter Lucy with Marta became a public school
teacher. So his kids actuallyseemed okay his grandson maybe
is or I don't know what he'sdoing now but at the time he was
kind of you know how most peopleif they are descended from like
a really terrible person willtry to distance themselves from
it. This guy's like whole hoginto it. Oh, yes,
Matthew (40:47):
like Markita sods ancestors yeah deny deny deny
Yes, insistence that just oneguy is like nah. I'll you want
to brass scholar of his like,you're not but no, no, we can
make money off this. We gotwine. We got soaps, whatever.
Marissa (41:06):
So Hulu is actually producing a show based upon the
book Devil in the White City,which is about homes. And this
will be starring Keanu Reeves.
Oh, haha. Yeah. And it's beingproduced by Martin Scorsese and
Leonardo DiCaprio. See, that'swhy I didn't tell you earlier
today. I was like, Ah, okay.
It's not that I can't say I'mgonna save the podcast. But it's
because Keanu Reeves is going tobe in
Matthew (41:26):
Jana Reeves Martin Scorsese, and DiCaprio Leonardo
DiCaprio.
Marissa (41:31):
So that is our episode on HH Holmes. And hopefully,
you'll learn something. Probablynot if you like true crime in
the 1800s. But
Matthew (41:41):
well, I mean, I as a person who's, you know, I've
watched the cause like Netflixas a documentary on and stuff
too. And they don't ever makeit. They don't ever downplay
the, the idea that it could alljust be blown out of proportion.
I don't think
Marissa (41:57):
that's pretty much what I'm getting from all those. I
mean, think about it. That wouldbe I mean, I know that's the
reason for him being such afamous murderer. Is this Murder
Castle, you know, and all thecrazy things that happened in
it, but it does. It does seem alittle far fetched.
Matthew (42:17):
Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess I mean, not necessarily.
If you have a baby, if you havea big castle. Well, not a big if
you have a skyscraper full ofsecret rooms and stuff. I mean,
why not utilize that for murder?
Yeah. Well, okay. Other than thefact that murder is wrong. I'm
just saying if you were apsychopath, and you had a big
(42:40):
difficult to maneuver, or tofind things in Castle, of
course, you're gonna do that. SoI don't think I don't think it's
got the money for it. I don'tthink it's that that crazy to
think? Well, I
Marissa (42:55):
think it's more likely that he he was a murderer, but
he also did a lot of shady stuffon the side. And that it's
pretty funny and more likelythat he used these secret rooms
to hide the stuff that didn'twant to pay for sure. But yeah,
Matthew (43:09):
I mean, the guy seems like he's he was a pretty clever
dude.
Marissa (43:13):
Yeah. He had to have been.
Matthew (43:17):
So let's talk about finding bodies in our
contemporary
Marissa (43:27):
that sounds like our McCobb minute.
Matthew (43:29):
Well, it's almost like a McCobb news break. But in
Arizona currently. We whichthere's there's a there's a
pretty massive drought that'sbeen happening. Obviously
Arizona is known for being kindof a desert area and most of it
Yeah, but there's a debt there'sa drought that has been lowering
(43:51):
well not only just a drought,but a lot of a lot of people
have been moving into the areaas well and because of the fact
that it's not an area that'sknown for a lot of moisture
coming into the area there is alarge lake called Lake Mead, and
over the last year, decade or sothat the water levels have been
(44:15):
dropping considerably, and atthis point, so it's a reservoir
and at this point, it is onlylike 27% of its full capacity.
Oh wow. Which also is it wasweird. I didn't really do like a
lot of research on this. As faras like there's you can see like
there's like lines where therock where like the like,
there's a discoloration in therock where it's like, dark on
(44:37):
like the hills and then all thenjust like it's like white like
chalk white. And then it goesdown to the water level. And I
don't know if that's like fromwhere the water level initially
was or anything. Anyways, that'snot the McCobb part. This isn't
a geology show.
Marissa (44:52):
I should do that next
Matthew (44:53):
geology podcast. But the but as the water level have
been receding in the last fourmonths from May to August of
2020. To five, at least fivedead bodies have been or the
(45:13):
remains have been found ofhumans. Wow. Really? Yeah. So
they, some of them are just likebones that may be associated to
this to a similar skeleton, thesame skeleton or anything like
that. But they're definitelyhuman remains, and one in
pretend that people drowned outthere fairly, fairly regularly.
(45:34):
Since like 2007. There has beenlike 100 and over 100 people who
have who have drowned or gonemissing in in the lake, there's
Marissa (45:42):
no way stop going into the lake.
Matthew (45:44):
Yeah, I don't know what I mean, I don't know what the
body count of an average Lakeis?
Marissa (45:47):
I don't know. But we do hear about people dying at the
lake near us sometimes.
Matthew (45:51):
Yeah. And that could be from anything too. It's not
necessarily being pulled underby JSON or anything. It could be
boating crashes, or anythingalong those lines. But one of
the bodies that was found in inMay of 2022 was shoved in a into
(46:11):
a steel drum, like a steel oildrum. Yeah. And that was of a
male, who had possibly been inthere since the 1970s, early
80s, who had not justaccidentally found himself in a
barrel to do that. But he wasapparently shot and then stuffed
(46:37):
into this barrel. And then thatbarrel was apparently sank into
the lake.
Marissa (46:42):
Well, at least he wasn't stuffed in the barrel and
then toss him like live. Iguess.
Matthew (46:47):
I don't, I don't I don't know if the remains show
if if he was bleeding out atthat time. But there are people
who are specialists in mobcrimes. And this is kind of a
hallmark of like mall of mobsfor crimes. And like meet is not
very far from Las Vegas, whichwas in the 70s and early 80s.
(47:07):
Kind of like known for itsconnection to crime and all
that, like, you know, organizedcrime and the mafia and stuff
like that. So
Marissa (47:15):
anyways, as vicious as
Matthew (47:19):
for a while to lay dries up. But as the lake does
dry up, more and more bodieshave best been found.
Marissa (47:26):
And that's kind of terrifying. How many lakes are
there? How many bodies thebottom of the lake here?
Matthew (47:30):
Yeah. And how many does go unfound? You know, you hear
about, like scuba teams goingdown there and like looking
around and dredging lakes andall this stuff to find to find
remains, and apparently, they'renot that good at it. You know,
like, I mean, it's, yeah, it's ahuge lake also. So obviously,
it's not like, you don't youknow, you can't search every
(47:53):
square inch for every missingperson.
Marissa (47:56):
And depending on visibility, and whatever is, you
know, on the bottom of the lakefloor, that's got to be super
difficult even with you aresearching. Yeah,
Matthew (48:03):
like that. And then yeah, it's probably, I think
it's a lot harder to find, finda body in a lake than TV would
let you right, lead you tobelieve. But anyways, that is
our McCobb minute, moment.
minute is terrifying.
Marissa (48:22):
That is our episode.
And we hope you guys enjoyed it.
And so yeah, we've been doingthis for over a year now.
Matthew (48:30):
And if you like what we're doing here would like to
support us, you can do that overon Patreon. It is $5. To do so
you can put any amount you like,but $5 get your access to a
bunch of extra content. Ishouldn't say a bunch of that
really oversells it. But we willbe doing a the psychopath test
(48:55):
to see if Marissa is apsychopath as far as test,
whatever paper tests can, canprovide. And that'll be coming
up on the Patreon as well as afew other extra bonus episodes,
one of which had taken a spothere as a kind of a, a teaser
(49:16):
for that. But anyways, if youenjoy what we if you enjoy what
we do here, you can support usthat way. If you would also be
so kind as to just share and letpeople know that we're out here
doing this. That would also begreatly appreciated. Thank you
for listening.
Marissa (49:34):
And please leave a review. If you get a chance. We
can you can leave a review onApple podcasts and Spotify. And
there's probably some other appsyou can leave reviews on but
those are like the two majorones.
Matthew (49:45):
If you want to leave a leave a review on the side of a
building on a post it note,
Marissa (49:51):
take a picture send it to us
Matthew (49:52):
feel free to do so. I think that'd be hilarious. But
as always, thank you so verymuch if you have if you'd like
to reach out To us, you can doso on Twitter and Facebook at
Macabrepedia.
Marissa (50:05):
We're also on Instagram and Macabrepediapod and you can
email us atmacabrepediapod@gmail.com.
Matthew (50:13):
And thank you, as always, and join us next week as
we add another entry into thishour Macabrepedia
Macabrepedia makes light of dark subject matters
(00:03):
and may not be suitable for allaudiences. Listener discretion
is advised.
Marissa (00:20):
burned alive with blow torches in the wall, a crematory
in the basement shelves full ofacids to disintegrate a body.
Boiling a man alive and oilsuffocating with chloroform.
hidden rooms well sealed windowsto eight easy suffocation
laundry chutes that were used totransport bodies of the
basement, dissections, graverobbing black market, Oregon
(00:43):
selling these are all part ofthe law that has grown around a
man who was born Herman Webster,Majid. The Chicago chronicle
condemned him as quote, a multimurderer, big A mist seducer,
resurrection, earnest forgerthief and general swindler, and
as a man without parallel in theannals of crime. Many of the
(01:06):
facts around these murders arenow considered to be false,
concocted by yellow journalismto sell more papers. But the
fact remains that he certainlydid kill many people, often for
life insurance payouts, someprobably accidentally, and some
to keep his other crimes hidden.
This American tall tale was spunfrom more than just a few
(01:28):
kernels of truth. And whileHerman Webster Mudgett did many
things terrible and evil. Theworld does not remember his
name. instead. They remember hisMurder Castle and a pseudonym,
the man himself concocted HenryHoward or HH Holmes Join us as
we add another entry into thisour Macabrepedia
Matthew (01:58):
Hello, and welcome to Macabrepedia a marriage of true
crime and the truly bizarre weare your hosts Matthew and
Marissa. And today it soundslike we are going into the dark
side of Neverland Ranch. What?
What are what are we talkingabout that?
Marissa (02:16):
Alright, well, we I figured for our 50th episode, we
could do some one of the bigones you know Jack the Ripper,
HH Holmes yada yada. But the50th episode was actually mid
series when we were doing this atenant packet panic. So this is
actually episode 52.
Matthew (02:35):
Okay, so the 52/52 episode that makes it feel like
it's the one year anniversaryepisode. Yeah. If we had done
them all once a week, but we'veskipped a few weeks.
Marissa (02:51):
Yeah, not many, but we have. But anyway. So first off,
and as I mentioned in the coldopen HH Holmes was not actually
named HH Holmes the HH stood forHenry Howard homes, but he had
many aliases in addition tothat, but his birth name was
Herman Webster, Majid,
Matthew (03:08):
which is a better serial killer name.
Marissa (03:12):
Yeah, it really is.
Just sounds creepy.
Matthew (03:15):
Majid demodulator I don't have any further jokes on
that. Okay.
Marissa (03:24):
So Born May 16 1861. In gilmanton, New Hampshire. Herman
was the absolute middle child offive siblings born to a fairly
wealthy family. Other sourcessay he had two siblings other
say four or another say three,but let's just say he had four.
He was the fifth.
Matthew (03:44):
Okay, just to really hammer home a middle middle
child.
Marissa (03:48):
That's what I got from that.
Matthew (03:50):
You also said like New Hampshire, like there has never
been someone in New Hampshirecapable of doing this
Marissa (03:55):
New Hampshire is a nice state.
Matthew (03:59):
Just like he's from all places, New Hampshire. Can you
imagine New Hampshire?
Marissa (04:04):
I know.
Matthew (04:05):
We have five, five episodes on murderers from
Massachusetts,
Marissa (04:10):
and we do plenty in New England but not New Hampshire,
New Hampshire. He had a prettystandard childhood by most
accounts, though some do saythat it was maybe not so
standard that there'sconflicting accounts here. Some
say that he tortured and abusedanimals or that he was abused by
his father. There is no proof ofthis, but who was to say based
(04:31):
upon what he would do later. Andto get away from his parents. He
would often read popular novelsof the era or he would hide in
the woods. He would one littlethings that that he would keep
and treasure one of his ownteeth that he kept in a box. You
know, whatever, for
Matthew (04:47):
his whole life when he was a
Marissa (04:48):
kid. Oh, it's not that weird when you're a kid, I
guess. But um, so
Matthew (04:53):
you never kept your tooth when you found out the
Tooth Fairy wasn't real. Um,spoiler sorry. A lead digitally,
Marissa (05:00):
allegedly. No, I never did. But I guess it was just
because I wasn't weird when Iwas a kid. I have now but it
wasn't that.
Matthew (05:09):
I mean, I didn't I don't consider. I mean, I don't
as a person who has done that. Ididn't I don't consider that to
be that weird. Let us know ifyou
Marissa (05:18):
or if you've collected body parts.
Matthew (05:21):
Yeah. Do you keep your own peeled scabs and teeth into
a little box?
Marissa (05:25):
I mean, I know my mom did. She kept my teeth. Oh,
Matthew (05:27):
I thought you're gonna say your mom kept the boxes.
scabs.
Marissa (05:29):
Oh, no horrible, you know, which didn't
Matthew (05:33):
keep my team taking little nibbles. You okay, that's
that's a joke from anothercomedian. I have no idea. I
can't remember who it was. Okay,well, George Carlin thinks
George Carlin.
Marissa (05:49):
I don't know. I'll just have to. I don't know.
Matthew (05:51):
I'm just saying. I don't don't ask me about the
fact that I recycled somebodyelse's jokes. I'm not really
that funny.
Marissa (05:59):
So anyway, when he was a kid, he was often bullied. One
time he was even locked in adoctor's office with a human
skeleton by his classmates, andhe was terrified. And this grew
into a fascination with deadthings and dissections. He was
he was genuinely terrified ofthe skeleton, like he was super
scared. So I guess that justmanifested into an interest
(06:21):
later.
Matthew (06:21):
Oh goodness.
Marissa (06:23):
So when Herman was 16 years old, he graduated from
Phillips Exeter Academy. Thenext year, he met and married
Clara Lovering, and they had achild the next year, a son named
Robert lowering budget. Hermannenrolled in the University of
Vermont, in Burlington, and heapprenticed under a guy named
named Wright, who was a humandissection advocate, but he
(06:44):
didn't really care for it there.
So he dropped out and then heenrolled in the University of
Michigan's Department ofMedicine and Surgery. While
there, he was pretty mediocrestudent but this allowed him to
work with the chief anatomyInstructure instructor,
Professor William James Hurdman,and they collaborate
collaborated to rob Fresh, freshgraves, searching for fresh
corpses to dissect at themedical school. They would rob
(07:06):
the graves and sell the bodies
Matthew (07:09):
right. We've covered resurrection this. Yeah, we
Marissa (07:12):
haven't covered Herman doing it.
Matthew (07:15):
I know. I'm saying for your audience, they can go back
and listen, we have Yeah, likethat. That behavior was fairly
common.
Marissa (07:23):
Oh, yeah. At this time, it was. Herman did end up
graduating from there in 1884.
But it was a close thing becausehe was almost stopped from
graduating when a widowedhairdresser came forward and
said that he had made a falsepromise of marriage to her. Was
this something why would thatstop him from graduate? I don't
know. I don't know that yougraduate based on
Matthew (07:45):
on character.
Marissa (07:46):
I mean, I guess it did include his character but I
don't know
Matthew (07:50):
he's, he's still he's still in bodies. Well, and it's
and that that that's just turneda blind eye but you said you
like
Marissa (07:59):
medical school, they had to have bodies they always
did that.
Matthew (08:02):
I know what I'm saying like, he's stealing bodies and
that's okay. But promising ahairdresser for a date and not
fulfilling it is grounds for notbeing able to graduate just
saying
Marissa (08:18):
Wild Times. During this time, he toted around Claire and
Robert roommates describedRobert were the two corpses that
you know, his wife and child
Matthew (08:30):
who are living life and
Marissa (08:34):
roommates describe their relationship as violent,
with Herman being very angry andaggressive toward Clara. And she
eventually just got really tiredof this and left moving back to
New Hampshire. She claimed laterthat she rarely saw him
afterwards. So they were stillmarried. But she just never
really saw him after that afterthis. But it's probably good for
the child. Oh, maybe. Now heended up fine. He was he's he
(08:59):
ended up being perfectly normal.
Fine guy. Okay. I'm just saying
Matthew (09:04):
story. You're gonna tell us more details of that.
Marissa (09:06):
Well, yeah, but not now. He traveled to
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, andhe got a job at Norristown State
Hospital.
Matthew (09:12):
Right. We're talking we're going back to murder man.
Marissa (09:16):
We're going back to murder man. Herman
Matthew (09:19):
budget. Yeah, Permin monster now.
Marissa (09:23):
But he quit after just a few days. And he felt it
wasn't quite right for him. Sothen he got a job at a drugstore
in Philadelphia. And while hewas there, a boy died after
taking medicine that waspurchased from there. Hermann
denied tampering with themedicine and denied any
involvement, but he immediatelyleft the city. At this point, he
changed his name to avoid beingrecognized by previous victims
(09:44):
of his various and sundry scams.
He did this a few times.
Actually. He had many aliases,as a walker
Matthew (09:50):
will hold on. So this kid dies can take a medicine
that he prescribed or theprescribed prescription for
whatever and And then he dipsout of town. I mean, that makes
sense. But what are the otherscams? This is like the I'm
Marissa (10:08):
gonna get to the scams, okay? Because he's escaping
scams. I
Matthew (10:12):
don't know the scams is that a scam? So
Marissa (10:15):
a lot of it was life insurance fraud. He would, he
would he would dig up corpsesand then use them as dead bodies
of people taking life insurancepolicies out on so that he could
get the insurance payout.
Matthew (10:29):
So he digs up a body says, Hey, this is so and so.
Yeah, this is yeah. This isMarissa here. As you see this is
Marissa is life insurance.
Really? That's not Marissa.
Marissa (10:42):
Yeah, he was he was a big insurance fraudster, for
sure. And he's just a great guy,
Matthew (10:49):
entrepreneur.
Marissa (10:52):
So in 1886, he moved to Chicago. Hold on,
Matthew (10:57):
on the insurance fraud.
We've also covered people who doinsurance fraud stuff. And the
way he's doing it is the bestway so far. Everybody knows he's
not killing the person to getinsurance. He's, he's claiming
that this person has insuranceto our
Marissa (11:15):
knowledge. He didn't, because he lied a lot. But to
our knowledge, he didn't killanybody to do well. Okay, at
this point at this point intime, yes.
Matthew (11:25):
Spoiler pickins.
Marissa (11:28):
So he moved to Chicago at six and this is when he
became known as Henry HowardHolmes. So obviously, HH Holmes
This is when he adopts thatname. And in 1886, while he is
still technically married toClara, he married a woman named
Mirta Belkin up in Minneapolis,Minnesota. A few weeks after
this, he tried to file fromdivorced for divorce from Clara,
(11:50):
saying that infidelity on herpart was the reason tracks went
up. Because these claimscouldn't be proven. They didn't
go anywhere, and they remainedlegally married. So at this
point, he's committing bigamy,but whatever.
Matthew (12:05):
So but does he is but he does actually legally marry
her. So he has his wife's nameis murder budget.
Marissa (12:12):
Well, it would be murder Holmes at this point.
Matthew (12:15):
Yeah, but technically, I'll tell you. It's murder.
Murder. Mudgett. The wife of amurderer.
Marissa (12:22):
Yeah. But they I mean, she thinks she's married to him
legally, but he's alreadymarried. So she can't be.
Matthew (12:31):
I thought it was funny.
It's
Marissa (12:33):
funny. So because of these claims, that couldn't be
proven this didn't go anywhere.
They remained legally married.
Holmes ended up having adaughter with murder who was
named Lucy Thea date Holmes inChicago in 1889. We're gonna say
something. Cynthia day, the datagood name.
Matthew (12:51):
So interesting name.
And most of us have some kind ofhistory to
Marissa (12:55):
it. I don't know. It's good name. No, he spent much of
his time in Chicago with Martaand Lucy attending to business.
But he also married a womannamed Georgie on a yoke in 1894
in Denver, Colorado. So he's nowmarried to three women, the last
two unknowingly to the womenwere unlawful. So point being
this is a very charismatic andcharming man, and he had many
(13:19):
mistresses and fiance's inaddition to these three women,
so he's very popular with theladies. When Holmes moved to
Chicago, he happened to go intoElizabeth South Elizabeth eth s
Hilton's drugstore, which wasthe corner of West 63rd street
and South Wallace Avenue. Shetook a liking to him, and she
(13:39):
offered him a job. Holmes didprove to be an excellent
employee, and he even eventuallybought the store from them. He
also purchased an empty lot thatwas across from the drugstore,
and began construction in thatlot in 1887. For a two story
building that would be bothapartments on the second floor,
and a retail drugstore on thefirst floor. So the construction
(14:01):
on this new building was notwithout some problems. One of
homes creditors died in thestore in 1891 of apoplexy.
apoplexy. And yeah, I'll get youevery time. He was also sued by
some architects and the Aetnairon and steel company when he
refused to pay them for the workthat they had done. Also
something that comes up prettycommonly. He added a third floor
(14:23):
to the building in 1892, tellingvarious investors and creditors
that he was planning to use itfor the upcoming World's
Columbian expedition. TheWorld's Fair. Yeah, this was
never fully completed, though.
It was partially finished withthree stories in a basement, and
it was definitely used as ahotel for a period for these
people who were coming to visit.
one of if not the earliestvictims was a woman named Joyce
(14:47):
Julia Smyth. Smyth was the wifeof Ned Connor, but also she was
Holmes's mistress. Yeah, NedConnor had been working at homes
as pharmacies jewelry counter,but He quit and moved away after
finding out about his wife'saffair with homes. And this left
Smyth and her daughter Pearlstaying with homes with whom she
(15:07):
continued the relationship.
Julia and Pearl both disappearedon Christmas Eve 1891 and were
never seen again. Homes claimedthat Julia had died during an
abortion, but later claimed thathe had poisoned pearl to hide
the mother's death. It's unclearif Holmes tried to perform the
abortion himself. He did have alittle medical training, though
(15:29):
not at all remotely close tothat. Yeah, I
Matthew (15:32):
feel like he thought it was a pretty easy procedure.
Marissa (15:34):
Maybe but it wasn't great. Apparently. That was his
story if it even happened likethat. A partial skeleton was
found when excavating Holmes'scellar. Possibly a child. Pearls
father, Ned was a key witnessand Holmes is trial for this.
Which we'll get to his triallater. But yeah, that's gotta be
(15:56):
terrible. You know, your wife,you know, cheats on you. So you
just leave and you leave yourdaughter because she's with her
mother and then you find outthat daughter dies.
Matthew (16:06):
That's terrible. Yeah.
And buried in a basementsomewhere.
Marissa (16:10):
Another woman disappeared in May of 1892.
Emily's the grant. She'd beenworking in the building. And
rumors after the womandisappearing claim that she had
been pregnant by Holmes,possibly a victim of another
failed abortion. This dude. Allthe ladies. He's telling you.
Another young woman vanishedfrom Holmes's building where she
(16:32):
works named where he where sheworks named Emily Van Tassel. No
knowledge if she was, you know,saying hammer not. Holmes was
working at the Chemical Bankbuilding when he became close
with a guy named Benjaminpizzelle. Potential sorry, a
carpenter. Benjamin had acriminal past but was trying to,
you know, kind of make somethingof himself and he he became he
(16:54):
was trying to show off somethinghe invented but he also just
became close friends with Holmesat this point. But Tesla was
described as Holmes's right handman and his quote, creature, as
a district attorney later
Matthew (17:06):
said, Nice he got it and got him got himself and Igor
straight
Marissa (17:11):
up fee or Yeah, a woman named Minnie Williams moved to
Chicago and met Holmes, heoffered her a job at the hotel
as a stenographer. So sheaccepted. He actually convinced
her to transfer the deed of herproperty in Fort Worth, Texas.
So a guy named Alexandra bond.
And Alexandra Bond was justanother alias for Holmes. Holmes
actually actually does thenotary to transfer the property
(17:33):
to him. So, yeah, I don't knowif she actually knew that that
was him. But yeah,
Matthew (17:42):
telling you, man, this guy's got an entrepreneurial
spirit. He definitely did. Andhe must be, I mean, the stache
alone oozes with charisma.
Marissa (17:51):
I mean, he's one of them. He's not bad looking man.
But but the pricing
Matthew (17:55):
it's it's more than just his looks like this. Do she
is able to convince people ofsome stuff.
Marissa (18:00):
Yeah. All the best criminal do best in quotations?
Matthew (18:04):
Yeah. I mean, I guess
Marissa (18:07):
Yeah. So anyway, homes and many rented an apartment in
Chicago acting as husband andwife and her sister Annie came
to visit them. But then shortlythereafter, neither woman was
ever seen alive after July 4,July 5 at 93. Weird, super
weird. She wasn't even the onlystenographer of homes who went
(18:27):
missing. woman named Kitty Kellyalso went missing missing in
1892. And then between 1891 and1893, six other people vanished.
Holmes is suspected to havekilled them all. Dr. rustler,
who had an office in Holmes'sbuilding went missing in 1892,
John G. David of Greenville,Pennsylvania, visited the
(18:48):
World's Fair and then vanished.
Henry Walker of Greensburg,Indiana, went missing in
November 8 93. Henry Walkerallegedly insured his life for
$20,000 to homes and written tohis friends that he was working
for him before he disappeared.
Matthew (19:03):
Insured his life to to his employer. Yeah.
Marissa (19:07):
Yeah, well, actually, I read that. And I don't know if
this is true, because a lot ofthis is maybe true, maybe not.
But I read that
Matthew (19:18):
whole supposed to be true crime. There's a lot of
gray
Marissa (19:21):
area in the story.
There's a lot of different likeversions of the story paths that
it takes. But I read thatactually a condition of
employment for homes was to makea to take out a life insurance
policy and make him thebeneficiary. Yeah, nice. I don't
know. Milford Cole of Baltimore,Maryland received a telegram
from homes to go to Chicago, andshe did in July 1894. before
(19:43):
disappearing. Lucy Burbankbankbook was found in Holmes's
castle in 1895 and was likelyanother victim. Holmes claimed
an insurance policy on the hotelafter a fire but the insurance
companies Thought he was atfault went wrong and attempted
to prosecute him for arson,which is when Holmes left
(20:05):
Chicago.
Matthew (20:08):
That's also something that's like the insurance
companies get him get a probablyassume that
Marissa (20:15):
you're not going to just pay out without question.
So this is July 18 94. Busy,busy, very busy few days, a few
years here. This is also when hewas arrested for the first time
and jailed briefly for sellingmortgage goods in St. Louis. He
was bailed out fairly quickly.
But he made a new acquaintance,maned Marian Hedgepeth. This
(20:38):
guy, he just made friendseverywhere. He's a likable dude.
So Marian hedge path with withwhom he planned to swindle an
insurance company out of $10,000by faking his own death, of
which alias? Yeah, no, right.
Matthew (20:57):
Oh, I could die like six times gonna be great.
Marissa (20:59):
So much money. He promised Hedgepeth that he would
give him $500 If he would supplythe name of a lawyer he could
trust. And Hedgepeth gave himthe name jetset Jeff Theia. How
never heard that name. It's goodname Jeptha. Anyway, he was
(21:21):
definitely on board with thescheme. And he agreed to help.
However, the plan didn't workout because the insurance
company became suspicious andrefused to pay. I mean, yeah,
he's not actually did. So afterhe decided to leave Chicago,
this is when he went to FortWorth where remember he now
owned property for many Williamswho had signed it over to him.
(21:44):
When he got there, he startedover and began building another
structure. But again, he didn'tpay the people who did the work.
So any contractors, suppliersetc. They didn't get paid for
the work that they did. WhenHolmes's scheme to fake his own
death for insurance moneyfailed, he in his right hand
man's potential came up with anew plan. Potential agreed to
(22:06):
fake his own death so that hiswife could get $10,000 in
insurance money, with theagreement that this money would
then be split between both homesand potential. The plan was for
potential to go to Philadelphiaand pretend to be an inventor
named B. F. Perry. Where hewould be killed and importantly
disfigured in a lab explosion.
Matthew (22:29):
There you go. All right. All right.
Marissa (22:32):
Holmes his job in this was to find a cadaver that
resembled a Tesla enough that itcould be mistaken for him with a
few dis figurations. But Holmeswas not to be trusted. Surprise,
surprise. He later confessedthat he knocked potential
unconscious with chloroform andset his body on fire with
benzene, a colorless and highlyflammable liquid.
Matthew (22:54):
And he said, I have just the corpse. Yeah, I know.
Don't you worry, it's gonna Noone is.
Marissa (23:03):
Holmes would say that potential was still alive when
he set him on fire. But forensicevidence later showed that the
chloroform had been used afterhis death, not before. And this
was speculated that it was toimply suicide that at home so
that Holmes could not beconvicted just in case he was
charged. But as his wife was iton this, she the murder person
(23:26):
she was in on the insurancefraud scheme. So this is also
how he was able to convince herthat he was still alive. So
after potential died, Holmescollected the $10,000 insurance
payout. Since potential hadtruly died, there weren't that
many questions, I guess. He thensomehow convinced potentials
widow to take to place three ofher five children in his care.
(23:51):
This was Alice, Nellie andHoward. Holmes would travel with
these three children throughoutthe northern us and into Canada.
But meanwhile, he alsoseparately would be escorting
Mrs. P. Edsel. Also lying to herabout where Piazza was, he
claimed that he was hiding outin London. And he also lied
about the whereabouts for otherthree children, which were in
(24:13):
some cases only a few blocksaway from her. Wow. Yeah.
completely unknown to her andthat's truly tragic. Holmes
spoiler, Holmes later convincedconfessed to killing Alice
Nellie by forcing them into alarge trunk and locking them
inside. He then drilled a holeinto the lid of the trunk and
(24:33):
put one end of a hole throughit, attaching the other into a
gas line. asphyxiating thegirls. He then buried their nude
bodies in the cellar of a rentalhome in Toronto. And then he
went to Indianapolis andpurchased drugs at a pharmacy to
kill Howard. Which whose body hecaught up and burned. Oh, wow.
Yeah, I mean, Piazza wasactually his. I mean, he was he
(24:56):
was called his right hand manhis creature for a reason and
And none of that loyalty wasrepaid at all. Obviously, he was
killed and his children werekilled. I mean, people speculate
he did this to try to cover uphis crime. But I don't know
about that, because the eldestdaughter was not placed in his
care. Who would you think bemore aware of what was going on?
Matthew (25:18):
I mean, the guy they got, I mean, in a way, it seems
like the guy knows what he'sdoing. I mean, and I mean, to
get away with it effectively,like, I mean, I'm assuming this,
the all of these things thatyou're you're talking about are
coming out. After he gets caughtfor something. Yeah. Like, it's
(25:38):
not like they're chasing himafter like finding these things.
No, no, not really. Yeah. Whichmeans that he was the was pretty
smooth until he wasn't. Yeah,
Marissa (25:48):
I mean, they started to get suspicious. Authorities got
suspicious of him, but he gotaway with it for a while. I
don't know, smoke, I guess.
Finally, on November 17 1894. InBoston, the Pinkerton national
detective agency arrestedHolmes. He was held in custody
for suspected horse theft.
Matthew (26:11):
What? Yep, that
Marissa (26:15):
happens a lot, though.
You know, they they thinksomebody's done something
terrible, and then get them on asmaller crime and hold them for
a while. Holmes had stolenhorses from Texas, shipped them
to St. Louis, and then sold themmaking a fortune but the
authorities were suspicious offormer.
Matthew (26:29):
But this is still again, it's all at 94 at this
time. Yeah. I know. Dude is justlike, how many hours in the day
is this dude have to dedicate toso many stones? Yeah, just so
many just criminal activities.
Marissa (26:46):
The bodies of the two girls would later be found by
Frank Guyer, a Philadelphiapolice detective. They were
decomposing at this point. Andhe would say that, quote, The
deeper we dug, the more horriblethe odor became. And when we
reached the depth of three feet,we discovered what appeared to
be the bone of the of a forearmof a human being. And then later
went, Geiger went and found theboy's teeth and bits of his
(27:07):
bones in the chimney of a homethat Holmes had rented in
Indianapolis.
Matthew (27:12):
Why? Why what? Why would he do that? Why would he
put the teeth in a chimney?
Marissa (27:18):
I'm guessing he tried to burn the evidence.
Matthew (27:21):
Oh, yeah. Yes, I'm thinking chimney as it led to
chimney shoot. Like he's like,like, it's up top, rather than
just like, and you know, and thepart where you put like the wood
or the coal or whatever. Thatmakes more sense to find it
there.
Marissa (27:36):
After guy are found these bodies. They naturally
went to Holmes's castle inChicago and they'll over to
other sources say that they didfind a lot there. Surprisingly,
they really didn't find anyevidence that they could use
there or maybe they just didn'tuse it because they already had
him on some other stuff.
Matthew (27:53):
Well, that's well, yeah, that that that's another
tactic that we've kind of seenpreviously in this time period.
But also you get it you get themone at a time so that you can
try them and try and try and trythem. But yeah, I mean he's
known for the he's known for theMurder Castle it's weird that
they that that's like the waythat you present it as like an
(28:14):
afterthought
Marissa (28:17):
Well, it's because it's exaggerated that's that's
Matthew (28:21):
that's like the thing that he's known knowns having
this Murder Castle and
Marissa (28:24):
yellow journalism it just sensationalized the whole
thing and made it out to be somuch more than it was. But the
Murder House was gutted by afire shortly after Holmes was
arrested, unknown arsonist thatthe said that two guys were
spotted leaving after that placewas set on fire. But I mean, he
(28:46):
was still alive at this pointHolmes was. So it was right
after he was arrested and it wasjust gutted by fire. All the
evidence, I guess destroyedbetter. No. They don't. They
never found that people who didit. The building was actually
used as a post office until1938. After that. Yeah, so in
October 1895, Holmes was put ontrial for the murder of Benjamin
Benjamin puzzle. Hey, suppose agood friend and right hand man.
(29:09):
Holmes represented himself as atthe trial showing, of course he
did. Yeah, of course, remarkablefamiliarity with the law.
However, his charm was not quiteenough for the jurors, and he
was unanimously found guilty andsentenced to death by hanging.
It was clear, Holmes had alsomerged all three of the children
that have been placed in hischarge homes, then confessed to
(29:31):
27 murders in Chicago,Indianapolis and Toronto, and
six attempted murders.
Matthew (29:38):
Thing is tempted. Yeah, who got away?
Marissa (29:41):
I don't know. I don't have that because they were just
attempted and he confessed tothem. And the thing is, maybe it
Matthew (29:49):
was like, he just was he told them like nobody even
realized that he had tried toYeah, they're like, he tried to
kill me.
Marissa (29:55):
Well, also though, some of these people that he
confessed to murder were We'restill alive.
Matthew (30:02):
Oh, he gets he wants to do it so much money. Yeah, we're
confused. Yeah, I
Marissa (30:06):
mean, why did he do this? It's unknown. But he was
paid $7,500 by the Hearstnewspaper for his confession.
But I mean, he's in jail at thispoint. Yeah. The truth is we
have no idea how many peopleHolmes killed, most likely
somewhere between nine and 200,which I know is a huge range.
(30:27):
Thanks for ya know, every sourceis like, oh, it's between nine
and 200. Okay,
Matthew (30:32):
between nine and 200.
Yeah, that means you candefinitely say nine. Yes, but
you can also just anybody diedbetween 1884 or 1882 and 1885.
It was probably killed by him.
Marissa (30:47):
Shortly before his death, he commented that he was
turning into the devil. Even hisface, according to him was
taking on a demonic look.
Matthew (30:54):
That's when he curled his mustache. Yeah.
Marissa (30:58):
So may 7 1896. Holmes was hailed hanged at the
Philadelphia County Prison forpotentials murder, he went to
the gallows rather nonchalant.
He showed few signs of fear andanxiety, and he remained calm
throughout the process. However,he did ask that his coffin be
covered in cement and buried 10feet deep, probably because he
was concerned that people woulddo to him what he had done to
(31:21):
others and grow up his grave. Sowhen Holmes dropped from the
gallows, he did not dieimmediately. Rather, his neck
did not break, which was common,but he did not. He slowly
strangled to death twitching forover 15 minutes. He was
pronounced dead after 20 minutesof hanging from the rope. And
his body was in turn into anunmarked grave and eat in
(31:42):
Pennsylvania. There's just somuch about the story. That or
that that's exaggerated andmythical and mysterious.
Matthew (31:53):
But the truth can be found in an episode of
Supernatural which is adocumentary that takes place in
real time. And you can find itthere
Marissa (32:08):
so there are there are some things which I'll touch on
here that there okay, so shortlyafter he moved to New York, a
rumor spread that he had beenseen with a little boy who
disappeared. So this was anotherpossible suspect or a possible
murder victim, homeless claimedthat the boy something went back
(32:28):
to homes and Massachusetts, wedon't know. You can at that time
in a period in time, it's likeyou look them up on Facebook,
you know, just and they wenthome. Okay, you know, it's
pretty far away to find out sohomes also lied a lot about who
he killed for reasons only knownto him. He claimed that he had
killed a former classmate,Robert Lee caulk for insurance
money. But it is an undisputedfact that Lee Cox actually died
(32:53):
three years after Holmes said hekilled him and in Ontario,
Canada. So I just lied. Yeah.
Yeah, there. There's also a myththat homes killed Elizabeth
Holton and her husband. They'rethe ones who own the drugstore
in Chicago when he first movedthere already worked out. He
bought their drugstore. But it'svery unlikely that they actually
(33:13):
killed them. Both of the homesactually outlived homes staying
in Chicago.
Matthew (33:20):
So of course, okay. If, if, if they both outlived him,
then clearly he didn't killthem.
Marissa (33:26):
Yeah, no, but people like to say that he you know,
that's that's one of the thingsthat he killed his employers.
And yeah, he
Matthew (33:31):
had, he had a very, very slow acting poison.
Marissa (33:36):
Yeah, he bought the drugstore from them. And people
say that he also killed them.
But that's not likely to be thecase. So it counts report that
homes built this hotel portionto lower interest that he could
kill, taking advantage of thenearby World's Fair. That's a
lot of the mythology around himthat, you know, he just built
this to bring in tourists thathe could just kill, you know,
(33:57):
the story goes that he plannedto murder them and sell their
bodies or just their skeletonsto a nearby medical school. But
there's no evidence of this. Inreality, it is sensationalist
drama, though it's hard to sayfor sure. It's likely that
Holmes personally knew each ofhis victims, rather than being
strangers who came in for anovernight. He certainly did sell
cadavers and skeletons tomedical schools. That's
(34:20):
absolutely true. But he alsolikely did this through grave
robbing, and not outrightmurder. And as I said, I mean,
supposedly, he also required hisemployees to carry life
insurance policies. With him asthe beneficiary. Yeah,
Matthew (34:35):
I mean, if you have a body count that could go up to
200 It sounds like he's killinga lot of people, but also for
some of these other things. Itsounds like he's, he's not like,
I don't know. It seems like he'sdoing a lot less homicidal ways
like
Marissa (34:52):
crime, but not necessarily murder. I mean, you
did murder he might
Matthew (34:56):
have just wanted to be a famous person. Yeah,
Marissa (34:58):
maybe He also had a one story factory that he claimed
was used for glass bending, butits own unknown if it was
actually ever used for that.
It's speculated that thisfactory was used to destroy
evidence of his crimes.
Matthew (35:12):
Because it would have like furnaces.
Marissa (35:13):
Yeah. Patrick Quinlan, the former caretaker of the
castle, died by suicide in 1914.
And left a one sentence note, Icould not sleep I thought was
just interesting. I mean, it wasyears later, but he knew he knew
the castle better than anyoneand gnomes on a lot of ways. So
finally, the most famous part ofhis story is his Murder Castle,
(35:36):
with a name given to his hotel.
The papers claimed this buildinghad over 100 rooms laid out like
a maze with trap doors, gaschambers, secret torture
chambers, and even a basementcrematorium. The rooms
supposedly had doors that openedinto a wall, windowless rooms,
dead in staircases, and more.
Beside a blood soaked operatingtable, they found a woman's
(36:00):
clothes. Another another sourcesaid that, beside a blood soaked
operating table, they found awoman's clothes and other
surgical surface was nearby anda crematory lots of medical
tools, a bizarre torture deviceand shelves of acids.
Matthew (36:18):
Bizarre torture device, yeah, doesn't specify
Marissa (36:22):
Holmes's fascination with dead bodies had apparently
long lasted, but lasted longpast college. But again, I mean,
this doesn't line up with a lotof the story. So I don't know
that this is necessarily true.
This is more of a sensationalistpart of it. They also said that
he would drop victims down thelaundry chutes, dissect them and
(36:43):
then clean them and sell theirorgans and skeletons to medical
institutions or on the blackmarket. I don't think this
happened from what I've read.
But that is the story thateverybody focuses on. I mean, a
lot of the stories when I wasdoing this, a lot of them are
actually report all that as afact. But it's only maybe just
(37:05):
in recent years when people havereally thought about it and just
think think that this is nottrue, but you
Matthew (37:12):
can't just change it. I mean, if it's, but I mean if
like if it's if it's if it'sbeen reported, this fact report
reported this fact, and thenlike, what 100 years later,
you're like, you know what? Nah,nah, I don't know. That wasn't
fact. Yeah. Do you have to havesome kind of evidence to back
that up?
Marissa (37:30):
Well, the papers, the papers at the time, absolutely.
Made that seem just like thishorrendous murder factory
almost. And they they put uplike, diagrams of the layout of
the hotel and stuff that you cansee online. But it doesn't, I
mean, again, the hotel wasburned, you know, it was burned,
(37:52):
it was pretty much gutted. Andthen it was tore down in 1938. I
believe. So we can't say forsure. But every source kind of
makes it seem like what theyhave reported is not quite
Matthew (38:03):
true. Well, I mean, you said it was it acted as opposed
to office till 1930. So I mean,I don't think it's going to be
amazed with trapdoors, and allthat stuff,
Marissa (38:14):
right. And there were actually some, like hidden
rooms, or the reason for it wasbecause Holmes was really bad at
paying his creditors. So hewould buy furniture, and then
when they came to repossess itbecause he didn't pay them, he
would hide it in these rooms.
Yes. So that was, that was whyhe had these rooms. But yeah, I
don't know that lots ofskepticism in recent years. The
(38:35):
building, as I said, completelydemolished in 1938, which is
when of course, I stopped actingas a post office. But it was it
was gone at that point. Homesaid, quote, I was born with the
devil in me. I could not helpthe fact that I was a murderer,
no more than the poet could helpthe inspiration to sing. No,
Matthew (38:56):
he was an artiste. No, he was a psychopath.
Marissa (39:00):
He was a psychopath.
Some actually believe that hewas friends, and maybe even
mentored Jack the Ripper. Iknow,
Matthew (39:09):
golly, kill nobody in the 1880s with
Marissa (39:12):
Jack Welch. It was around the same time. So I'm
saying this was owing in part tosome diary entries, where he
spoke of killing prostitutes inLondon. This Okay, these diary
entries are. Well, his grandsonhad some had some journals that
he said he inherited from hisgrandfather. And he did have
them supposedly analyzed byhandwriting analysis experts who
(39:36):
concluded that they belonged toHH Holmes. The grandson claims
that HH Holmes convinced someoneelse to go to the gallows for
him something that contributedto the body being exhumed and
tested in 2017 to make sure thatit was him. It was him. Oh, it
was actually remarkably wellpreserved, I guess because it
(39:56):
had been encased in concrete
Unknown (39:58):
and locked in. Well, Well,
Marissa (40:01):
there's a lot of reason to doubt the veracity of these
claims. But, you know, that's atale for another time perhaps.
So his son was Clara Robert, whoI spoke about earlier. He became
a city manager of Orlando,Florida. So he seemed to be well
adjusted. His daughter
Matthew (40:20):
Orlando, Florida has a bunch of secret hidey holes
committed as Florida after all
Marissa (40:27):
his daughter Lucy with Marta became a public school
teacher. So his kids actuallyseemed okay his grandson maybe
is or I don't know what he'sdoing now but at the time he was
kind of you know how most peopleif they are descended from like
a really terrible person willtry to distance themselves from
it. This guy's like whole hoginto it. Oh, yes,
Matthew (40:47):
like Markita sods ancestors yeah deny deny deny
Yes, insistence that just oneguy is like nah. I'll you want
to brass scholar of his like,you're not but no, no, we can
make money off this. We gotwine. We got soaps, whatever.
Marissa (41:06):
So Hulu is actually producing a show based upon the
book Devil in the White City,which is about homes. And this
will be starring Keanu Reeves.
Oh, haha. Yeah. And it's beingproduced by Martin Scorsese and
Leonardo DiCaprio. See, that'swhy I didn't tell you earlier
today. I was like, Ah, okay.
It's not that I can't say I'mgonna save the podcast. But it's
because Keanu Reeves is going tobe in
Matthew (41:26):
Jana Reeves Martin Scorsese, and DiCaprio Leonardo
DiCaprio.
Marissa (41:31):
So that is our episode on HH Holmes. And hopefully,
you'll learn something. Probablynot if you like true crime in
the 1800s. But
Matthew (41:41):
well, I mean, I as a person who's, you know, I've
watched the cause like Netflixas a documentary on and stuff
too. And they don't ever makeit. They don't ever downplay
the, the idea that it could alljust be blown out of proportion.
I don't think
Marissa (41:57):
that's pretty much what I'm getting from all those. I
mean, think about it. That wouldbe I mean, I know that's the
reason for him being such afamous murderer. Is this Murder
Castle, you know, and all thecrazy things that happened in
it, but it does. It does seem alittle far fetched.
Matthew (42:17):
Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess I mean, not necessarily.
If you have a baby, if you havea big castle. Well, not a big if
you have a skyscraper full ofsecret rooms and stuff. I mean,
why not utilize that for murder?
Yeah. Well, okay. Other than thefact that murder is wrong. I'm
just saying if you were apsychopath, and you had a big
(42:40):
difficult to maneuver, or tofind things in Castle, of
course, you're gonna do that. SoI don't think I don't think it's
got the money for it. I don'tthink it's that that crazy to
think? Well, I
Marissa (42:55):
think it's more likely that he he was a murderer, but
he also did a lot of shady stuffon the side. And that it's
pretty funny and more likelythat he used these secret rooms
to hide the stuff that didn'twant to pay for sure. But yeah,
Matthew (43:09):
I mean, the guy seems like he's he was a pretty clever
dude.
Marissa (43:13):
Yeah. He had to have been.
Matthew (43:17):
So let's talk about finding bodies in our
contemporary
Marissa (43:27):
that sounds like our McCobb minute.
Matthew (43:29):
Well, it's almost like a McCobb news break. But in
Arizona currently. We whichthere's there's a there's a
pretty massive drought that'sbeen happening. Obviously
Arizona is known for being kindof a desert area and most of it
Yeah, but there's a debt there'sa drought that has been lowering
(43:51):
well not only just a drought,but a lot of a lot of people
have been moving into the areaas well and because of the fact
that it's not an area that'sknown for a lot of moisture
coming into the area there is alarge lake called Lake Mead, and
over the last year, decade or sothat the water levels have been
(44:15):
dropping considerably, and atthis point, so it's a reservoir
and at this point, it is onlylike 27% of its full capacity.
Oh wow. Which also is it wasweird. I didn't really do like a
lot of research on this. As faras like there's you can see like
there's like lines where therock where like the like,
there's a discoloration in therock where it's like, dark on
(44:37):
like the hills and then all thenjust like it's like white like
chalk white. And then it goesdown to the water level. And I
don't know if that's like fromwhere the water level initially
was or anything. Anyways, that'snot the McCobb part. This isn't
a geology show.
Marissa (44:52):
I should do that next
Matthew (44:53):
geology podcast. But the but as the water level have
been receding in the last fourmonths from May to August of
2020. To five, at least fivedead bodies have been or the
(45:13):
remains have been found ofhumans. Wow. Really? Yeah. So
they, some of them are just likebones that may be associated to
this to a similar skeleton, thesame skeleton or anything like
that. But they're definitelyhuman remains, and one in
pretend that people drowned outthere fairly, fairly regularly.
(45:34):
Since like 2007. There has beenlike 100 and over 100 people who
have who have drowned or gonemissing in in the lake, there's
Marissa (45:42):
no way stop going into the lake.
Matthew (45:44):
Yeah, I don't know what I mean, I don't know what the
body count of an average Lakeis?
Marissa (45:47):
I don't know. But we do hear about people dying at the
lake near us sometimes.
Matthew (45:51):
Yeah. And that could be from anything too. It's not
necessarily being pulled underby JSON or anything. It could be
boating crashes, or anythingalong those lines. But one of
the bodies that was found in inMay of 2022 was shoved in a into
(46:11):
a steel drum, like a steel oildrum. Yeah. And that was of a
male, who had possibly been inthere since the 1970s, early
80s, who had not justaccidentally found himself in a
barrel to do that. But he wasapparently shot and then stuffed
(46:37):
into this barrel. And then thatbarrel was apparently sank into
the lake.
Marissa (46:42):
Well, at least he wasn't stuffed in the barrel and
then toss him like live. Iguess.
Matthew (46:47):
I don't, I don't I don't know if the remains show
if if he was bleeding out atthat time. But there are people
who are specialists in mobcrimes. And this is kind of a
hallmark of like mall of mobsfor crimes. And like meet is not
very far from Las Vegas, whichwas in the 70s and early 80s.
(47:07):
Kind of like known for itsconnection to crime and all
that, like, you know, organizedcrime and the mafia and stuff
like that. So
Marissa (47:15):
anyways, as vicious as
Matthew (47:19):
for a while to lay dries up. But as the lake does
dry up, more and more bodieshave best been found.
Marissa (47:26):
And that's kind of terrifying. How many lakes are
there? How many bodies thebottom of the lake here?
Matthew (47:30):
Yeah. And how many does go unfound? You know, you hear
about, like scuba teams goingdown there and like looking
around and dredging lakes andall this stuff to find to find
remains, and apparently, they'renot that good at it. You know,
like, I mean, it's, yeah, it's ahuge lake also. So obviously,
it's not like, you don't youknow, you can't search every
(47:53):
square inch for every missingperson.
Marissa (47:56):
And depending on visibility, and whatever is, you
know, on the bottom of the lakefloor, that's got to be super
difficult even with you aresearching. Yeah,
Matthew (48:03):
like that. And then yeah, it's probably, I think
it's a lot harder to find, finda body in a lake than TV would
let you right, lead you tobelieve. But anyways, that is
our McCobb minute, moment.
minute is terrifying.
Marissa (48:22):
That is our episode.
And we hope you guys enjoyed it.
And so yeah, we've been doingthis for over a year now.
Matthew (48:30):
And if you like what we're doing here would like to
support us, you can do that overon Patreon. It is $5. To do so
you can put any amount you like,but $5 get your access to a
bunch of extra content. Ishouldn't say a bunch of that
really oversells it. But we willbe doing a the psychopath test
(48:55):
to see if Marissa is apsychopath as far as test,
whatever paper tests can, canprovide. And that'll be coming
up on the Patreon as well as afew other extra bonus episodes,
one of which had taken a spothere as a kind of a, a teaser
(49:16):
for that. But anyways, if youenjoy what we if you enjoy what
we do here, you can support usthat way. If you would also be
so kind as to just share and letpeople know that we're out here
doing this. That would also begreatly appreciated. Thank you
for listening.
Marissa (49:34):
And please leave a review. If you get a chance. We
can you can leave a review onApple podcasts and Spotify. And
there's probably some other appsyou can leave reviews on but
those are like the two majorones.
Matthew (49:45):
If you want to leave a leave a review on the side of a
building on a post it note,
Marissa (49:51):
take a picture send it to us
Matthew (49:52):
feel free to do so. I think that'd be hilarious. But
as always, thank you so verymuch if you have if you'd like
to reach out To us, you can doso on Twitter and Facebook at
Macabrepedia.
Marissa (50:05):
We're also on Instagram and Macabrepediapod and you can
email us atmacabrepediapod@gmail.com.
Matthew (50:13):
And thank you, as always, and join us next week as
we add another entry into thishour Macabrepedia
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