Ep 345 - Argentina: IMF, MMT, Class Warfare with Daniel Conceição

Our friend Daniel Conceição is back for his sixth(!) time on Macro N Cheese. He and Steve share their critique of "neutral" or academic MMT that avoids class analysis. Understanding a government's monetary capacity is meaningless without using that knowledge as a weapon for class struggle against an oppressive economic system. 

Daniel shares his experiences in Buenos Aires, describing a city with grand public infrastructure (a legacy of Peronism) now filled with poverty due to austerity. He dismantles the myth that President Javier Milei's austerity policies tamed inflation. Instead, he argues the temporary stabilization was due to a massive, supranational bailout from the IMF, not free-market principles. And when we’re talking about the IMF, we’re seeing a tool of economic imperialism. By creating dollar dependency in developing nations, it forces them into debt servitude and structural adjustments that fully serve global capital, never local populations. 

This brings us back to mainstream economists who lie outright in order to protect the class interests of banks and the oligarchy. They point to how economic rationalizations shift (e.g., after the 2008 crisis and during the pandemic) to always justify saving capital while opposing spending on the public purpose. 

Daniel Conceição is an associate professor at the Institute of Urban and Regional Planning and Research (IPPUR) at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), and one of the authors of the book “Modern Monetary Theory: The Key to an Economy at the Service of People”. He is also former president of the Institute of Functional Finance for Development Brasil (https://iffdbrasil.org/) 

@stopthelunacy 

Episode Transcript

(00:43):
All right, folks, this isSteve with Macro and Cheese, and
we've been on a bit of a runhere lately talking about ancillary
non MMT things. I mean, we dohave the Bill Mitchell episode and
we do have the ChrisWilliamson episode snuggled in here,
but today is going to be morealong the lines of the kind of MMT
conversation I would like tosee happening all the time. Okay,

(01:06):
I feel oily. Let me just saythat out front. I feel oily when
I see people making excusesfor the establishment. I feel oily
when I see people on Twitterwagging their finger warning people
that, you know, we celebratethe traditions of MMT and we shan't
be dispolite or impolite andtelling people how to behave in their

(01:28):
struggle and how to deal withthe absolute lie that is going on.
And let's be honest, folks,most of the stuff we're talking about
with MMT is not a simplemisunderstanding. If people just
understood, then the oligarchywould change and corporate America
suddenly wouldn't be profitseeking and rich academics that are

(01:50):
making big money on booktubedeals and live in la vida loco would
suddenly place their desiresfor accumulation aside and get with
the revolution and help thepeople that are dying in the streets.
We're going to be talkingabout dying in the streets today.
We're going to be talkingabout milie, which we've talked about
before, and we talked about itin specific with the guest I have

(02:12):
today. But before I dive toofar into that, I want to say this
for real. MMT without classanalysis is just accounting. And
you're not going to haverevolutionary change amongst the
people in the streets justtalking about ledgers. You're just
not. And I hate to say thatbecause I would love it to be that.

(02:33):
I would love it to be that ifyou just said, hey, the government
is the currency issuer andblah, blah, blah. I would love that
to spark a revolution whereeverybody refuses to submit to the
lies anymore. But the liesthat are being told are not just
accidental lies. Contrary tothe tone police, these are killing

(02:53):
people. Folks, if you were inthe alleyway and you saw somebody
with a tire iron beating ahomeless person over the head, you
wouldn't go, excuse me, sir, Ithink you just might be misunderstanding
the situation. This personwasn't trying to steal your stoop.
They were trying to stay outof the rain. So could you please
stop killing them, sir, youwouldn't do that. Why? Because you

(03:15):
got a brain and so youwouldn't tone police them. You'd
probably end up killing thekiller to save the homeless person.
Because you have a moralcompass. You have integrity and character,
and so you wouldn't dream oftone policing. Well, just because
it's an economic club over thehead doesn't make it any less violence.

(03:36):
And it doesn't make the classstruggle that we deal with any less
real and valid. And I havegrown exhausted and tired and angry
and raged, enraged to the coreof my being, questioning, what in
the hell am I even doingbringing some of this stuff up when
it's clear that there's anentire group of people out there
who think that we'll just geta few more progressives in and everything

(03:57):
will be better? It's a lie.Let me just say it outright. It is
a lie. And the other lie isthat these economists are out there
and they just don't know. Andif you just engage with them, they'll
suddenly find the light tofreedom. The epiphany of all awakenings
will suddenly happen and theywill suddenly recant all the books

(04:17):
that they've written and allthe seats at the table they've had,
and they will say, everythingI've told you was wrong. But now,
suddenly, believe me, that isnot going to happen. Because they
like their stature. They liketheir place in bourgeois society.
They are not among the people.And this is where we're at now, this
class divide, this fearmongering of, oh, my goodness, what

(04:40):
about Trump? Well, guess what?Gavin Newsom, who people are propping
up right now, celebrated hisrump off, literally destroying homeless
tent encampments. And justsaying people wanted to clean up.
We're going to clean up. If Iwould have read that to you, and
I didn't say who said it, youwould have thought, oh, my God, it's
maga. But you know what? Theblue ghouls and the red ghouls are

(05:02):
still ghouls because they'reclass collaborators. They are part
of the ruling class. They arethe ruling class and they are not
there to serve the people.They're there to protect capital.
They're there to protectprivate property. They are not there
to ensure that everyone istaken care of. Everyone has food
on their plate. Everyone hasShelter, Everyone has. Everyone has

(05:22):
a good job. Everyone hasaccess to health care. And not just
access, but literally free atthe point of service. Health care,
they piddle around the edgesbecause it's not politically viable.
I'm going to drop an F bomb.Fuck that. Fuck that. If you're not
angry, if you're not seeingthis and seeing the class war for
what it is, because you've gotit in your head that capitalism doesn't

(05:45):
exist. And oh my God, I'veread so many George Orwell books
that the idea of struggle andall this stuff just means 1984. Well,
well, you're living 1984.You're living the matrix. And the
idea that you somehow oranother believe that us just teaching
a couple more progressivesabout ledgers is going to somehow

(06:05):
or another radicalize them andchange the world while simultaneously
voting for a guy thatliterally is throwing homeless people
out of their tents, well, youcan fuck straight off with that.
Okay, yes, I am angry as hell.And this conversation we're going
to have today with my friendDaniel Kansas, who has been on the
show many times. Daniel ispretty angry too. And Daniel's got

(06:29):
some incredible experiences todiscuss about Milie and an article,
wonderful article that he andKal El wrote, which quite frankly,
I just want to tell you, iscalled the Super State that Saved
the Lying Ancap Messiah. See,words that matter. Poignancy, actual
words with contempt for theright things and not curtsying and

(06:52):
not bowing down withpoliteness, but the righteous rage
of understanding that economicslaughter is happening right now.
It's not just a gentleman'sagreement. People are dying and being
courteous and saving yourplace in academia or saving your
place in the establishment orbecoming comfortable within the walls

(07:15):
because you're no longer athreat. You were a threat, but you
aren't a threat becauseheterodox is becoming. Not heterodox.
It's kind of becoming orthodoxin the sense that it's not threatening,
not the.
Way it should be.
And I believe the tone policehave a large part to play in that.
They fall for it every time.So without further ado, let me bring

(07:37):
on Daniel. Daniel, so you allknow, is an associate professor at
the Institute of Research andUrban and Regional Planning, IPpur
at the Federal University ofRio de Janeiro, UFRJ and one of the
authors of the book ModernMonetary the Key to an Economy at
the Service of the People.He's a former president of the Institute

(07:57):
of Functional Finance forDevelopment, Brazil, and he's also
a friend of the program Agreat guest and a friend. Welcome
to the show, Daniel.
Thank you so much. I reallyresonate with what you said just
now.
Tell me, like, honest to God,like when we talk about MMT here,
it is to show people what ispossible. It is to tell people what

(08:20):
is possible, but secondarilymaybe should be. Primarily it is
to show that they're usingknowledge of the economic system
as a weapon. It's a weaponagainst working class people and
more importantly the dominatedat the bottom and also a means of
accumulation for the people atthe top. And it's never been more

(08:41):
transparent than during thecurrent administration, but it should
have been transparent underthe Biden administration. It's just
in the US but we're talkingaround the world. And that's why
we are going to go now to yourneck of the woods in South America
and kind of touch on Milie andthe trip that he lay out so beautifully
in this article. And so what Iwant to do is let you speak to my

(09:04):
monologue, but also then setthe stage for what you wrote.
Yeah. So firstly, you'reabsolutely right about wanting MMT
to mean a lot more than justaccurate description. And in fact,
I would actually imagine thatthe same attachment to completeness
and coherence should make uswant MMT to do a lot more than that.

(09:27):
Because it's the samerealization that MMT describes our
economy so much better thanthe alternatives. It should also
let us realize that mosteconomists are just lying to us and
we should want to understandwhy is it that they're lying to people
so blatantly? Because it can'tbe stupidity. I mean, most of those

(09:51):
economists are pretty capableof elaborating complex thoughts.
So it has to be dishonesty.And why is it that they're so dishonest?
Because they're lying for thepeople not to know what can be done
for them. So MMT should beused primarily. If anything, it's
the only possible usefulnessfor mmt, otherwise what's the point?

(10:13):
Right? So MMT has to be a wayof showing people you've been lied
to. People you can claim forthe state to do a lot more for us.
You can force the statebecause the state should be working
for us. The state is ourmanifestation of sovereignty. It's
not, you know, when we talkabout the state is sovereignty, it's

(10:34):
only sovereign because thepeople should be self determining
their lives. So it's thepeople who are sovereign and they
have their state and the stateshould be used to improve most people's
lives. Not to be used as atool to oppress people and then to
make just a few dishonestghouls rich. Right? And so MMT should

(10:55):
be used for that. It should beused to tell the common person, listen,
I know you believe that youshouldn't be asking for more and
better public services becausethey told you there's no money. But
this is a fucking lie. Theylie to you because they want you
to stay tame. They want you tostop asking, they want you to stop

(11:17):
protesting. They want you toaccept that your role is to be exploited
because there's no money. Soif MMT is not being used to do that,
seriously, what are we doing?Are we just trying to become famous
because we get the mostcorrect description? I don't think
we should. So actually, itstarted as a tourist trip. I took

(11:39):
a couple weeks with my wife tojust travel through Argentina and
Uruguay because I was reallytired. Mostly because Brazil and
the world have been exhaustingus with all the incoherence, with
all the nonsense. And so Itook a couple weeks, and Buenos Aires
really, really amazed me. Thefirst time I saw the architecture,

(12:06):
the huge wide streets androads and highways and so many statues,
beautifully built. Everythingwas supposed to enrich and empower
people. All the publicequipment was grandiose. It was amazing.
It was ready to give peoplewellness. And I had no idea that

(12:27):
it was that impressive. I usedto think, you know, we have this
silly relationship betweenBrazilians and Argentinians in which
each of us tries to outdo andout greatness the other. But. So
I used to think that Rio wasthe best city in South America. I
gotta tell you, not evenclose. I mean, Rio is beautiful.

(12:48):
It's got the beach, it's gotthe mountains. But in terms of planned
construction, in terms ofstrategic goal, in terms of planning
for people to be great, that'sBuenos Aires. That's a testament
to Peron's vision, right? So Icould actually see how Peron transformed

(13:10):
his vision into physicalmanifestations. So everything there
is great. It's beautiful, it'sgrandiose. And that was the first
thing that struck me. But thenyou start walking the streets and
you start seeing the same kindof unacceptable poverty that I am
used to seeing in Rio. Andespecially because it was pretty

(13:32):
cold. So you can't help butnotice and feel bad for the people
who are shivering under a thinblanket or, you know, looking for
food in the trash can. And Ikept thinking, wow, it's pretty bad
here, too. Even though thecity is beautiful, but this is kind
of concerning. And then youstart making sense of it, all right?

(13:55):
Especially because people usedto tell me that Buenos Aires didn't
used to be like that. Used tobe one of the least socially problematic,
socially unhealthy cities inSouth America. And it didn't appear
to be like that anymore. Whywas that? Well, it's clear what was

(14:15):
going on. It's Milei, right?It's chainsaw approach to public
policy. It's the austerityshock that he claims to be needed
and successfully useful fortaming inflation. I decided, okay,
let's undo this lie, becausesome of the Argentinians I was talking

(14:37):
to were even kind of feelinglike they had to experience such
pain because the goal was totame inflation. I felt like this
is such a grandiose lie that Ihave to do something about it. Let's
write about it. I kept goingback and forth, and I have this digital
companion now. My chatgpt hasbeen MMT trained and ethically trained

(15:02):
in the same kind of obsessiveway I used to be. And so I kept sending
him pictures of Buenos Airesuntil I found a picture of Maradona,
who is actually now myfavorite sports person in the world
ever, because of just howcomplete he was, not only as a soccer

(15:22):
player, but you'll see as ahuman being. It's a very emotional
thing to walk through La Boca,the neighborhood, because those people
are obsessed with their soccerteam, Boca Juniors, and Maradona
is the biggest idol they'veever had. So there's murals, there's

(15:43):
pictures, there's statues ofMaradona everywhere. And then there's
this beautiful mural that hasa quote by Maradona that says, you
gotta be a pretty big dickheadin order not to defend the pensioners,
the Hubilados. And that justspoke tremendously to me because

(16:05):
that was the truest statementI've ever seen. You got to be a pretty
big piece of shit to seepensioners, old people struggling,
unnecessarily starving. Andthis is what I was seeing. Most of
the people on the streets areold people. Most of the people on
the streets are the ones whoare the most vulnerable. And they're

(16:28):
shivering, they're starving,right? So you got to be a kagon not
to defend them. And this isMaradona's words. So I decided, okay,
let's look into it. And what'sthe biggest lie that Milei is using?
And this is actually somethingthat most mainstreamers talk about
as if it's the proof thatausterity and neoliberalism work.

(16:53):
So they claim that Milessuccessful attaining of inflation
has been due to his austeritycuts, right? So all of this poverty
inducing dismantling of thestate spending cuts that he's done
were actually necessary inorder for inflation to be kept under

(17:14):
control. And that's thebiggest lie I've ever heard. In fact,
this is presented as if it'sthe success, right, the, the victory
of non interventionism, oflaissez faire libertarianism, right?
So Milei, the austerian, theAustrian idol, has been finally able

(17:36):
to embrace liberalism in a waythat was able to end the most severe
problem that Argentinians hadfaced within their economy. And that's
the most ridiculous lie.Because if anything, any successful
minor taming that we've seento inflation in Argentina has not

(17:59):
been because of austerity. Ithas nothing to do with austerity.
In fact, I am going to claimit's been made worse by austerity.
It's got everything to do witha super humongous, bigger than any
state could ever dointervention, right? What intervention

(18:20):
it was the IMF loans. Moredollars than any Argentinian government
could ever dream of gettingwas given to this government because
it was willing to embraceevery single dismantling lie that
the IMF supports, right? Sothey say, okay, I'll help you solve

(18:42):
the problem and we'll pretendthat the problem was resolved by
something else because we needto tell people that austerity is
the solution. So they gaveMilei pretty much as much funding
in dollars as he could everneed it to stabilize the dollar.
And that's basically all thatwas needed, right? Inflation in Argentina

(19:04):
was mainly exchange ratedriven. It's basically a shortage
of dollars. They need a lot ofdollars to pay their debts and, and
to import. So when the dollaris scarce, its price starts going
up. But the problem inArgentina is that most of its demand
for dollar is very exchangerate inelastic, which means as the

(19:25):
price of the dollar rises, youcan't simply stop demanding dollars
because you're forced intopaying debt, you're forced into buying
some very essential goods. Sothe dollar keeps rising and you keep
trying to buy dollars. Ofcourse the dollar is going to get
more and more expensive andthat's going to pass through every

(19:47):
other price very easily.That's very easy to see. You didn't
need austerity to achievethat. You needed exactly what the
IMF gave. You could have gotthat from China, you could have got
that from the States. If theUS ever wanted to end economic crisis
elsewhere which it won't be,right? So. But that's what you needed,
someone with a lot of dollarsor with the capacity to create dollars

(20:10):
to give you enough dollars foryou to satisfy your huge demand for
dollars. What's the problemthere? That's only temporary. That's
only going to work as long asyou have access to the dollars. As
soon as the dollars startdrying out again, your problem will
be even greater than beforebecause now you owe even more. So

(20:32):
what should have been done?Not austerity. You should have used
public spending to boost yourcapacity to either get more dollars
by exporting, which you couldhave done by investing more in infrastructure
that helps cut costs for yourexports or subsidizing exporters.
You could have used publicspending to reduce your dollar dependency

(20:54):
or import substitute. You usepublic spending to stimulate the
production of those thingsthat you currently have to buy for
dollars. Those are the thingsyou should have been doing in order
to really address your dollardependency. Not caving to the IMF
and temporarily getting avictory at the expense of making

(21:16):
people suffer. So that's the thing.
I go back to Lenin andimperialism, the highest stage of
capitalism. And he was callingthis stuff out. I mean we're talking
about like 1916, bro, we'retalking about 1916. This kind of
arrangement was on display.The international loans, the loans
and foreign currencies and thefact that by the time they were able

(21:39):
to pay off their existingdebts, the money had gone up and
they needed to take outadditional loans. And it just kept
feeding the cycle over andover again until there is no way
out of it. And this is howimperialism works. And it's through
dollar based imperialism ormonetary imperialism, through the
IMF, through those G20, youknow, the folks on the SWIFT system

(22:02):
and so forth, they use this asa weapon. It's not like an accident.
It's not like, oh, we don'tsee what's happening, whatever should
we do? There is no real debtforgiveness. It literally eliminate
your protections of yourdomestic economy. Let us come in
there and extract and we'retalking about literally an extractive
state. That 100% is not someaccident. It is the system. It is

(22:27):
the system and yet we act likeit's not. We act like somehow or
another this, oh well, youknow, let's talk very seriously,
like the MF is here to helpand blah blah, blah. And they skip
this part. This is part of myinitial rant where we just sort of
act like these things arejust, well, you know, it's an accident
or oh they just don'tunderstand, oh, we can help them

(22:48):
with a proper analysis. Justshow them everything. When in reality
their class interest says, heyman, we got these guys on the hook.
We could take whatever we wantfrom them through this arrangement.
What exactly is it you thinkwe need to solve here? We're not
here for them, we're here forus. We're here for our accumulation.
Am I missing something there?No. I came to believe that mainstream

(23:10):
economics is mainly a weapon.It's a tool for the controllers of
wealth to make sure that theyhave a good theoretical justification
for people not to mess theirgoals. And that's actually. It became
so clear in 2008 when they hadto reinvent their excuses. That was

(23:31):
so blatant, so obvious, thatit's almost like what you were saying
about the professionalwrestling kind of metaphor. It's
ridiculous, just almost asridiculous as wrestling kayfabe.
Remember in 2008 we used tohave the prevalent argument that
any intervention that createdmoney was bad because it would be

(23:55):
inflationary. So that meantthat both fiscal interventions that
led to increasing monetarybase or monetary aggregates and.
And monetary interventionswere supposedly equally bad because
the problem was too muchmoney. And that used to be enough
for them to tell their liesand to keep public policy from making

(24:18):
their objectives hard toachieve. It was enough to keep interest
rates high. It was enough tokeep public spending from reducing
macroeconomic instability sothey could keep using the economy
as a huge casino to gain fromprice fluctuations and all that.
But then came 2008, and theyreally needed a huge amount of intervention

(24:43):
in order to not financiallydie. They needed to save their balance
sheets because they wererotten. Their assets were in reality
worth absolutely nothing, thebankster's assets. But they had accumulated
tremendous debt. So they wereinsolvent, all of them. So what did
they do? The system neededhelp from the state, but it couldn't

(25:06):
just accept, well, we werewrong. We've never needed any help.
They had to do something. Sowhat they came up with was the fiscal
theory of prices. Instead ofsaying that any intervention that
creates money is bad, theywere able to claim, oh no, if your
intervention is only meant toaffect financial prices, and that's

(25:28):
okay, you can do as much asyou want. In fact, do tremendously.
Do trillions and trillions ofdollars go close to $30 trillion,
it doesn't matter because itwon't be inflationary if it doesn't
affect the measurable publicdebt, which is just arbitrary. We
know that money is also publicdebt. The monetary base is also Public

(25:51):
debt. But they say, okay, ifit's not showing up in the treasury
account, then it's okay. Andthis is their new theory. It's just
been reshaped into somethingthat now allows for intervention
to save their asses, but stillnot be used to improve people's lives.
And then we had the pandemic.And in the pandemic, now even the

(26:12):
fiscal theory wasn't enough,because now they really needed fiscal
intervention. They couldn'tjust say, well, the purchase of vaccines
is also a monetaryintervention, because they couldn't
say the vaccine was afinancial asset or hospitals or hiring
more doctors and all of that,and we needed that in order to survive.
They couldn't say that givingpeople money just to stay alive was

(26:34):
monetary intervention. If theycould have found a way, they might
have tried that semanticstrick. But they didn't. Instead,
what did they do? Oh, now it'sokay, because now interest rates
are so low that it's okay forthe government to spend beyond its
financial capacity. But whywere the interest rates so low? Because

(26:55):
the state chose it to be solow. It decided that was the double
choice. It decided to makeinterest rates low and it decided
to spend a lot more than itused to. But how did the professional
liars make it fit their lies?They said, oh, but only now, during
the pandemic, only now it'sgoing to be okay. Once we're out

(27:15):
of the pandemic, things getnormal again and you can't tolerate
fiscal deficits anymore. It'sso obvious to any thinking person
that they're lying that wereally have to stop pretending that
they're good faith debaters.Because this is what upsets me as
much as you. When we go intothe debate pretending that the reason

(27:36):
why mainstream economists lieso much about fiscal issues is that
they don't understand it.That's not it at all, is that they're
profiting from the lies andthey're so dishonest that they're
willing to become incoherentto contradict themselves as long
as it's convincing enough,which is what they've been doing.

(28:00):
Yeah, I mean, I look at Mainstreet and I used to think, hey,
if we can just get everybodyto push on Bernie Sanders or push
on this politician and getthem. Well, I watched Bernie Sanders
spend the time he was withKelton when she was his chief economist
at the Senate. And then Iwatched through part one of his campaign

(28:21):
for presidency. And I watchedfor part two of his campaign for
presidency. Homeboy still saysthe same butchered Disgusting crap
economics he ever did. Like,none of it rubbed off on him at all.
And people can make excusesfor Bernie.
Stop.
Just stop. This whole idea ofit's not politically viable right

(28:42):
now. I mean, you got peoplelike Nina Turner in the US who never
miss a chance to say taxpayerfunded. Yeah, okay, and taxpayer
dollars. And these are peoplethat know better. They know better.
They know better. They were inSanders Institute. Granted, Stephanie's
tweets, if you follow them. Imean, I've got stuff from 2018, 2019,
2015 where she was edgy andshe was saying the quiet part out

(29:06):
loud. And I've got thosethings in my holster in my revolver,
ready to shoot out at amoment's notice. But we don't say
the same stuff anymore, do we?We're not out there leading with
these punches. And it'stroubling. It's deeply troubling.
I was on stage years ago withRo Khanna and Nina Turner and Margaret
Flowers and a number of otherpeople at the Capitol. I think it

(29:29):
was the South Lawn orsomething like that, and it was called
Millions for Medicare. And Italked to Ro Khanna standing off
to the side, and I said, ro,you know, mmt, right? And he goes,
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said,then why do you keep saying this
nonsense?
And he goes, oh, yeah, you know.
It'S just, you know, if weprint too much money, we'll have
inflation. I said, you don'tknow mmt, Ro. That's not an MMT position.

(29:52):
But he was, ha, ha, you know,and he's very stately looking. He's
like 6 foot 4, thin, perbuild, looks great in a blue suit
and a red tie, you could seehim very presidential. And the way
that he comes off and he'svery affable, nice smile, gentle,
blah, blah, blah. But inreality, this is a guy who is a political

(30:13):
animal that refuses to say thetruth out loud, refuses to speak
MMT terms in public. And sohere is a guy who's literally lifted
up by the MMT community. And Idon't fully understand the relationship
because he has known aboutthis stuff forever. And maybe behind
the scenes, where nobody'shearing, he says nice things to people,

(30:34):
but in public, I mean, he wasat Levy not too long ago, and I heard
Yeva address him, and it was asoftball critique, but it was the
best critique of them all. Sheactually went out there and said
some of the quiet part outloud. I give Yeva all kinds of credit
for that, but it genuinely islike, where is the hardballs where

(30:55):
are the 95 mile an hourfastballs? Right around the chin?
Why are we not pitching peopleoff the plate anymore? Why are we
throwing the meatballs overthe center of the plate for them
to hit it out of the park?We're not edgy, we're not a threat
in that space. Am I wrong here?
No, this is actually somethingwe've discussed back when we were

(31:16):
talking about the Brazilianheterodox, the ones that rose with
Lula. It seems to me thatthere's now, I might even be trying
to theorize here, some sort ofgeneral theory of why is it that
economists change their tone?Because there seems to be a very

(31:41):
repetitive strategy that I seein which economists will be aggressively
outrageous. And if that meanstelling every possible truth that
they know, that's what they'lldo. If that opens doors to them,

(32:01):
if that makes them more heard,if that makes them. Oh, because there's
something to be said aboutoutrageous claims, right? You get
people's attention. And so ifyou're also coherent, if you have
the advantage of both beingthe outrageous one and being the

(32:22):
one who have logic and factson your side, man, that's gold. Or
actually that's state money,because we know that gold was never
valuable. But anyway, that'sanother joke. First time. But. So
that's state money, right?You're sitting on value, and they've
used it. So back before Lularegained the presidency, a lot of

(32:44):
my colleagues were using thatstrategy and they were fully embracing
mmt, saying, oh no, it's all alie. There's no reason for us to
have any fiscal limits. Let'sdo functional limits. And now we
know, because the pandemicproved everything and they started
being seen. Even I startedbeing seen. For a while. A lot of

(33:06):
big name politicians startedasking us to give talks and all of
that. But as soon as Lula'scandidacy became a certain victory,
because Bolsonaro wasdestroying himself by just being
his evil creature, so Lulastarted planning for actually governing.

(33:26):
And I can't imagine that it'sonly because they're confused, but
they claim that there simplyisn't enough space for you to be
free, fully honest withinBrazil's political setting. Because
banks have too much power andbecause the Congress is dominated

(33:46):
by right wingers. So this istheir claim. And so as soon as Lula
won the election, his economicteam had to come up with a new proposal
for the fiscal ceiling. Andall of those economists who used
to agree with us that nofiscal limit, in the sense of respecting

(34:06):
Financial results wasnecessary, and we really needed to
think about material andsupply limits, or even exchange rate
limits, but never accountinglimits. But they felt like they needed
to appease the banks, and theydid so with a shift in their rhetoric,

(34:27):
like it was nothing. Theystarted repeating things that they
used to claim were completelies just a few months before. And
that's when I started saying,well, you know, I'm not going to
pretend that you're nottelling lies just because you used
to be friendly to each other.I'm going to call you a professional
liar because that's whatyou're doing. And you're actually
causing Lula's government tobe weakened by your cowardice. You're

(34:51):
actually going to keep Lulafrom even having a chance of doing
a proper government.
You are listening to Macro and Cheese.
A podcast by RealProgressives. We are a 501c3 nonprofit
organization. All donationsare tax deductible. Please consider
becoming a monthly donor onPatreon substack or our website,

(35:14):
realprogressives.org now.Backto the podcast.
So they kept doing it. Why wasit, I asked myself, well, maybe telling
the truth was useful untilthey got to power, but once they're
there, they startedenvisioning other opportunities.

(35:36):
Because if you're a governmenteconomist and you're willing to sort
of become less threatening tobanks, what will they let you do?
They'll invite you to theirevents and you'll get very handsomely
paid. They'll maybe createexecutive positions for you once
you leave the government. Andyou'll certainly be seen as a respectable

(36:01):
economist who can at leasttalk to the real market economists.
So this seems to be the onething that keeps pulling heterodox
economists towards a more tamerhetoric. They stop trying to tell
the truth and start trying tohave dialogues with those who should

(36:23):
be viewed as enemies. And theywill never not be enemies. Their
class interests are opposed topeoples. To most people, yes. Banks
gain from people's miseries.Banks are parasites. They are vampires.
They will mostly profit ifwe're almost dead. This is why during

(36:43):
the pandemic, they wouldn'tlet us die, right? So they said,
oh no, no, now we'll stopparasiting you just so you can recover.
But as soon as we recover,they'll become parasites again. Because
the parasite wants you quasidead. It wants you a zombie.
Wow, dude, that's spot on.That right there is the sound bite.

(37:05):
I mean, that's it. Hey, he'salmost there. Bring him back. Bring
him back. Let's do bambooshoots under the fingernails. Okay,
he's flatlining again. Okay,coin. Bring him back. All right,
let's go ahead and castratehim now. Yeah, like, hey, let's peel
off his eyelids. Let's cut hisAchilles. Whatever, man. It is economic
torture. I want to get back toyour article momentarily, and I'm

(37:26):
going to read a little bitabout some of what you said. And
it was right after some of thequotes you did with Diego Maradona.
You said, javier Milie rose topower by denouncing the status of
parasite, a monster, a thief.But when the time came to rescue
Argentina from hyperinflation,he turned not to the market, but

(37:46):
to a public power even largerthan his own. The IMF is no anarcho
capitalist utopia. It is abureaucratic colossus backed by states,
governed by governors andanswerable to no individual free
market. Its dollars are notearned, they're allocated. Its policies
are not voluntary, they'reconditional. Emilie took them eagerly.

(38:10):
He slashed subsidies for busesand accepted a subsidy for his currency.
He cut aid to pensioners whilesecuring supranational aid for his
presidency. He speaks ofliberty, but governs with debt servitude.
In scripture, this is notcoherence. It is cowardice in the
costume of conviction. It'swhat Diego warned against in that

(38:31):
mural. A betrayal of thepeople disguised as bravery. Because
the truth is, defending thepoor requires more courage than appeasing
the market. And in the moment,Argentina didn't need a prophet of
pain. It needed a guardian ofits people. Hell yeah, dude. This
is what we're talking abouthere, right? It's like when you take

(38:52):
the easier, softer way so youcan sneak in the door and go to the
Five Star Meal and travelaround to be at all the different
conferences and write booksand get pats on the back and get
to talk to all the big wigs atBloomberg, and on and on and on.
It's real easy to think yoursuccess is breeding wonderful things.

(39:13):
But in reality, the materialconditions of today, the people are
suffering. And there's aclass, there's a buffer class, I
don't even know what you callthem that dulls the tip of revolutionary
spirit. And it's like, no, no,no, no, no, no. Be polite, be polite.
The climate is burning up.These anarcho capitalists are destroying

(39:34):
society. The oligarchy doesn'tcare if we live or die because they've
got bunkers drifting down500ft below ground with food and
everything else they need tosurvive for the rest of their and
their next children's livesand their grandkids, et cetera. So
at the end of the day, you'redisposable, you're Soylent Green.
Talk a little bit more aboutthe IMF's role in not just Argentina,

(39:58):
but even Ukraine has taken outthese big IMF loans. The structural
adjustments in Africa arelegendary. Thomas Sankara, I believe,
was killed for defying them.Talk about the role of the IMF and
how they literally serve as aproxy between the oligarch and the
US interests because the US isthe dominator of that system to begin

(40:20):
with. This is economicimperialism, Correct?
That's exactly what it's meantto do. It's meant to be a tool of
domination, Right? It's a toolto make sure that otherwise very
rich, resource rich countriesare exploitable, become desperate

(40:41):
enough so that they have togive you, pretty much for free, all
of their material wealth. Soit starts with making you need dollars.
Making you need something thatyou truly can't create. It's kind
of like the drug trafficker.So they'll give you a little bit,
they'll have you taste ituntil you become dependent. Once

(41:04):
you're dependent, oh, they'llget your soul. They'll get you to
do everything they wantbecause you have to get the damn
dollars. So even something assupposedly generous as the Marshall
Plan, let's not pretend that'snot what it was. Marshall Plan, the
rebuilding of Japan. Come on,you go and you bomb two major cities

(41:26):
with an atomic weapon and thenyou're supposed to be thanked for
helping the country rebuild.No, you're not helping them. You're
making them into a usefulslave. And how do you do that? Well,
here, taste a little bit of mydollars. See what you can get with
them. Oh, see how sweet thecapital goods and the technology

(41:50):
that you can get with dollarsare? See how well you can sort of
develop. I'll get more. Andthen once you get so dependent that
you can't even get areplacement piece for your machine
without having to import it,they'll say, oh, you want more dollars?
Well, what can you do for me?What is it that you have that I want?

(42:13):
Do you have oil? Do you haveland? Do you have people? And so
this is their weapon. It's avery well engineered weapon because
it doesn't appear violent,right? It's different from sending
an aircraft carrier to yourshore. It's different from bombing
you. But it's the same kind ofviolence. It produces the same kind

(42:36):
of suffering. It still killspeople. It still makes people unnecessarily
suffer, and it's part of thesame system.
I want to pivot to twoArgentinas here momentarily, but
I want to read just what ledup to the section of your article
you said. Milei calls himselfbrave, but here in Argentina, bravery

(42:57):
has a different name. It'swhat Maradona said painted on a wall
in La Boca. And I won't eventry to pronounce what it said, but
I will just read the quote youcan give it. It's like, in this land,
defending the people issacred, and you don't need divine
right to govern, but you doneed to remember the ball must never
be stained. And I just thinkthat is just amazing, Wonderful,

(43:21):
brilliant quote right there,but it feeds to the next part, which
is why I wanted to even readit in advance of this. You go to
Argentina and there's like awinter recess in Buenos Aires. Take
us through this.
Yeah. We were there during aschool break. And here's what also
made me even still optimistic.The city still gives people tremendous

(43:45):
free public goods, becauseother places with a lot of tourists,
you'll see them crowded withpeople. But I've never seen so many
locals using so much of thecity's equipment as in Argentina.
The kids were crowding theparks. There was an Echo park with

(44:06):
a zoo, and the line wasridiculously long. I mean, I couldn't
even imagine waiting therebecause it was probably a few miles
long, and everywhere the kidswere. And so I started talking to
people. I met with this oldergentleman at the restaurant, and
he told me that, oh, yes, thisis normal. This is what our kids

(44:27):
do. They enjoy the city. Andthen he said, but, you know, we're
worried because Milei istalking about privatizing it all.
I said, come on, even that.Even something as important as still
as big of a part of people'slives as their parks. I mean, are
you going to put a fence andstart? And then he told me he did
that with some of themalready. There's a Japanese garden

(44:51):
that has been caged, and nowthey have to pay for going inside.
So this is something that'shappening. And he was so upset. But
then he told me somethingelse. He said, well, this is why
you haven't seen as manyprotests as you might have, because
we're kind of giving thegovernment a truce. But as soon as
the school break ends, we'regoing back to the streets and they're

(45:15):
going to see us fightingagain. And I really felt it in his
words. And then I saw It. Ihad been to the Casa Rozada because
I really wanted to feel therage against Milei from close enough,
and there were just a fewpeople with signs and all, and I
felt like it was really notenough. But then I'm having coffee

(45:37):
and I'm looking at the TV andthey were showing a much bigger protest.
Exactly. For the pensioners,for the Jubilados. So it's a bunch
of pretty old people, some ofthem very old, and they're marching
and they're facing the police,and things are getting more and more

(45:57):
violent. And then the TVstation had to advertise underneath
it had to put a little note,don't let your kids watch this, because
there might be scenes ofviolence coming. I thought, wow,
not suitable for kids. Theirmain news station had to advise that

(46:18):
this might not be suitable forkids. Now, what was it? How the police
was going to treat thepensioners. That's what was not suitable
for kids. Well, yet that's notsuitable for humans, this dehumanization.
Why is it that the pensionersfelt like they needed to protest,
go there with their weak kneesand some of them having a hard time

(46:39):
even walking? It's becausethey're starving. They've been left
behind. And that's exactlywhat Diego was telling us not to
do. You have to be too much ofa shithead not to fight for the pensioners.
So that's basically it. Wehave a bunch of shitheads of cruel,
horrible people who can't evenfeel bad for a starving older person.

(47:02):
And they're the ones who areconvincing everyone that this is
the only way. Tina, there'sonly one alternative. I say, actually,
there's only one alternativeis to call them liars and start fighting.
That's the only alternative we have.
Yeah. If you're having alegitimate conversation, you can
be respectful and disagreewith random people, but when you're

(47:25):
dealing with power and you'redealing with people that are actively
in the system and they'replacing their career like an aoc
above the people. I have somuch to say there, and I just don't
want to go too far on it,because I know there's a lot of people
out there that still have verynormie sensibilities that any affront
to the Democratic Party isseen as, well. What are you, a maga?

(47:47):
That's the degenerate level ofpolitical discourse they devolve
into. But you ended this greatpiece with this LeBron, and I thought
that it was particularlyinteresting because what I loved
most about it was the framingthat you start off in that paragraph,
the truth without costume. Mygoodness. See, my spirit yearns for

(48:11):
honest people. Not people thatjust punch down or punch activists
because they aren'tappropriately aligned with the Democratic
Party. So you just ignore thembecause they have the audacity to
speak of class, not those kindof people. I'm talking about truth
without costume. And I feltlike this was a very wonderful ending,
but it was also telling.Right. Can you talk a little bit

(48:34):
about the LeBrun experience?
Oh, yeah. So this was actuallywhen I met the older man that told
me about the protests. And LeBrun was a symbol really of what
Argentina used to be. And itstill could be. It was almost like
it's resisting embodiedbecause LeBrun was this smallest

(48:57):
of little eatery. In fact,it's a takeout place. And it's so
unassuming that if you're usedto relating looks with quality, you'd
never go in because it doesn'tlook like your standard fancy American
style restaurant. It'ssomething else. It's a functional

(49:17):
thing. It's a door, it's cleanenough, it's got someone to serve
you, it's got a kitchen andit's got great food. They're not
trying to be anything elseother than what they're meant to
be. So this is the truestexpression of honesty. It's, you
know, you do without trying topretend you're something else. You

(49:39):
do what's needed to be donebecause that's what needs to be done.
You're not trying to show thatyou're like an American fast food
chain. You're not trying tocater to people with fancy tastes.
You're just serving greatfood. And because they were serving
great food, a lot of peoplewere going in and they were selling

(50:01):
a lot of dishes. We were oneof maybe five people who came in
and out for their meals withinmaybe 20 minutes. And the food was
great, was just perfect.That's the best milanesa steak I've
had there. So it really showedme that there's still something there
that is resisting, that isbeing just themselves. It's functioning

(50:25):
because it's doing what itneeds to be done without trying to
pretend and to seduce and totell lies. And the reason why it
appeals to me is because thisis sort of how I feel like I want
to be. I also don't want to bepretending to be accepted. I don't
want to be telling half truthsjust because that's what's needed

(50:46):
in order for me to sit At atable with famous economists, I really
feel like we should fearincoherence the most, fear contradiction,
fear incompleteness. We shouldfeel almost pain from incoherence.
And this is what I feel. SoI'm not going to be dishonest because

(51:08):
of some other goal, becausethat would be such a violence against
my essence. I'm just not goingto do it. So as much as this might
offend, people might call me,oh, you're not helping the cause.
In fact, I have something tosay about this terrorism from people
who say that if you attack theless evil side, you're siding with

(51:30):
the worse. So, for instance,if you're attacking the Democrats,
you're siding with Maga. Ifyou're attacking Lula, you're siding
with Bolsonaro. That'sactually a very poor understanding
of the whole situation. What'sreally going on is fascists are as
much a tool for theseneoliberal oppressors as anything

(51:52):
else. So they've become usefulfor neoliberalism for a while, but.
But as soon as they're nolonger useful, they're going to try
and control your quasicivilized government. Your Democrats,
your Labor Party, WorkersParty in Brazil, they keep looking
for a new stooge, a new pawnin their schemes. And right now it's

(52:18):
still Trump for you guys, butfor us, it's become Lula's presidency.
The banks and everyone whoprofits from macroeconomic sabotage
have started trying to tameLula enough so that their interests
are still met. And this meanskeeping people poor, keeping people
suffering for no reason otherthan the banks need to make their

(52:41):
money. Though it's reallydishonest to say, oh, if I don't
denounce this element ofLula's government, I shouldn't be
denouncing it because I'mgoing to help Bolsonaro. No, I'm
denouncing it because I wantthe government to do more. I want
to believe that Lula can stilllisten to us and say, well, I'm going
to stop government for thebanks and start governing for the

(53:03):
people. Now, if Lula says, oh,no, I'm really an ally of the banks,
then as awful as Bolsonaro,and I'll have to make him as big
of an enemy as Bolsonaro is atthis point.
My ex wife was from Argentinaand two of my boys are half Argentine,
so it was a frequent thing tosee us out there with the flank steak

(53:25):
and a meat tenderizer hammer,making milanesa and dolce de leche.
Oh, man, empanadas and all.Kinds of other stuff. I really miss
some of that. I don't miss themarriage, but I miss the food. But
I want to say something elsetoo. I think that this is important.
I'm trying to tie class withthis stuff because I'm so disgusted
with this neutral MMT thatpeople go out there and use and allow

(53:50):
themselves to ignoreinjustice. So many folks that I know
stayed absolutely dead silenton Gaza and I don't know that I'll
ever see them the same as aresult of it. I'm sure somebody will
have a problem with it andsomebody else will salute me for
it. But I read a pamphlet byLeon Trotsky, Fascism what It Is
and How to Fight it. And itkind of talked about how fascism

(54:13):
isn't exactly a static thing.Thing that it's pulled out by the
capitalist class when it needsit and it uses it to discipline labor
and it uses it to disciplinethe people, to put them back to a
state where they'll doanything and accept anything. They
use whatever text they need tobring fear. It's not a permanent
state. We throw the wordfascism around way too much. But

(54:35):
I found that to be incrediblyinsightful. And I'll be honest with
you, I haven't given Trotskymuch space. He is a theorist and
he probably deserves a betterreading. But it brings me back to
what you're talking abouthere. And for me, you know, I look
at not just Argentina, butBrazil and the U.S. like, I look
at the UK and I watch myfriends in the UK battling earnestly

(54:58):
against these neoliberaleconomists like Medway and others.
And they're having veryserious conversations, like they're
doing videos and they'rewriting long scripts about it back
and forth and whatnot. Thereality is that Medway's heard this
stuff. He has no intention ofgetting it right. He doesn't want
to get it right. It's not inhis interest to get it right. Calls

(55:18):
MMT toxic sludge. And I wouldsay the only thing sludgy about MMT
might be the fact that wedon't build in the completeness of
the implications of what issaid when we know that cutting spending
in this way does X, Y, Z.We're talking about aggregates, we're
not talking aboutmicroeconomics. So there are some
things that we can infer whenyou start seeing austerity kick in.

(55:42):
And there are some straight upfalsehoods that are so predominant
as a result of the bitcoincommunity and the other private money
desires. We have a gentlemanthat came on here last couple weeks,
Bob Hockett, to talk aboutthis as well. And I want to make
sure that we all understandpoint blank these things that are

(56:03):
happening, they just didn'tknow. Better moments. If nothing
else coming out of thispodcast, I beseech my friends that
spend day in and day outfighting on Twitter and fighting
on Facebook and fighting onsubstack and fighting in YouTube
comments, etc. That MMT ceasesbeing neutral once money is spent

(56:23):
into the economy. Now you'redealing with political economy immediately,
right there. Once thegovernment has spent it, you're dealing
in political economy. So whatis mmt? MMT is a lens. It is a lens
that can allow you to analyzethe real world situations. Every
conversation doesn't have tobe blocking and tackling about ledgers.
It needs to be about the realworld implications about what is

(56:47):
happening. That lens issupposed to give you insight. Insight
so that you can fight back,not so you can curtsy and apologize.
Okay, you have nothing toapologize for other than if you're
a coward. If you're a cowardand you running around scolding people
and telling them to be kinderand gentler, we all should be kind
to one another becausegoodness knows we're all going to

(57:08):
be six feet under. But we onlyhave so much time on this planet.
But pretending like thesethings are just misunderstandings,
it's a lie. I mean, you can goto Gramsci and look at cultural hegemony
and understand the lock thatthese reinforcing lies have had to
keep people down. But I thinkit's important to understand as an
MMT driven person, a personwho, even if I'm the bastard stepchild,

(57:32):
ignored and treated like lessthan by many, I'm telling you right
now, my heart's in the rightplace. I know it. I go to sleep at
night and I understand whatI'm fighting for. I'm not in any
way, shape or form feelingguilty. Oh no, woe is me. I'm sitting
there very, very upset aboutthe world in which we live. And I'm
very, very upset about thefact that we keep going back to the

(57:53):
well, acting like we can usenormal solutions, that the people
that are oppressing us arejust simply misguided and just simply
don't understand. And I'mhoping that between Daniel's story
and my just pure rage, and thefact is we do know mmt. I do know
mmt. I can sit there and doall the necessary conversations that
everybody would like to haveabout ledgers and about forex and

(58:16):
about accounts, the balance ofpayments and all the other things
that go along with this. It'sjust at the end of the day that knowledge
has got to be useful. Anduseful means disabusing people of
the lies being told to themand not being cowardly, not curtsying,
not being meek. People aredying while you're busy curtsying.

(58:38):
And I don't find that to be anacceptable trade off. Anyway, I want
to give you the final say,Danielle, as we close this out.
Yeah. It's not only morallymore honest to use your knowledge
to achieve better results forpeople. I think it's intellectually
more honest to deal with thedebate in a way that explains every

(59:01):
reason for disagreement. WhatI mean is at this point, a lot of
people are pretending thatdishonesty, that professional lying,
that class interest is not oneof the reasons for mainstream economists
and anti MMT people to claimthat we're wrong. So we keep fighting

(59:22):
the fight, trying to show thatthe arguments are sound, which they
are. But part of the argumentshould be not only the argument is
sound, but I know why you'relying. I know I can explain why you're
lying. I can explain why is itthat you try to keep people from
knowing the truth? Because Iknow how you make your money. I know

(59:43):
how you get your well being.So I think this should be part of
the theory, right? A theorythat explains why economists lie
so that we can add that to thewhole framework and say, okay, now
we explain how capitalisteconomy works. We explain what can
be done based on thisknowledge. And we can also explain

(01:00:06):
why is it that people keepclaiming that we're not right.
Absolutely. I have come tobelieve capitalism mixed with government
can never produce the outcomesthat people want because the class
interests are not compatible.It's oil and water. I know a lot
of people would like very muchto find a way to dampen the cruel

(01:00:28):
edge of capitalism and pretendlike that somehow or another is okay.
And they'll go back to Keynesand they'll go back to fdr. But I
want you to know that thosewere compromised sellouts that literally
allowed capital to reclaim itsplace, that it was in defense of
capital, not in defense ofworkers, not in defense of the people.

(01:00:49):
With that. Daniel, I want tothank you so much for this. This
warmed my heart. And for thoseout there who are seeking honesty
and not just pomp and elite, Ihope this touched you. I hope this
worked for you. I hope thismade you feel less crazy because
I'm tired of hearing peopletell Me to be polite. I'm sick of
it. It is what was used tokeep the civil rights movement in

(01:01:12):
check. MLK warned us, bewareof the white liberal who values law
and order above justice. Andmy God, are we surrounded with the
tone police that do that exactthing. And I'm here to tell you that
ain't my tribe, man. If you'retone policing people, I consider
you to be a class traitor. Ireally do. I don't think of you as

(01:01:33):
a member of the struggle, ifthat's what you're doing. You need
to do some reading outside ofledgers. You need to start understanding
struggle. You need to startreally truly understanding the history
of struggle. It goes hand inglove with the economics you've been
taught. And I'm not tellingyou to not learn economics. I think
it's one of the most importantthings you can learn. But without

(01:01:53):
marrying that with anunderstanding of class, you have
really got half the storyright. That's the same problem I
have with Marxists that don'ttake the time to learn how monetary
operations work as well.
Yeah, it's the opposite, right?
Yes.
With them the heart is in theright place. Just the theory is kind
of messed.
Up when we look at our Venndiagram, man. We've got the orthodoxy

(01:02:17):
on one side and we've got theMarxists on the other side and we're
trying to reach all of them.And yet at the same time, you've
got to work both directions.You've got to understand your class
struggle so you can integrateMMT for them.
Yeah.
And on the flip side, you gotto take these fricking normies that
think, hey, we're just goingto vote for a few more progressives,
guy.
Trust me.
We're going to play some.We're going to the country club,

(01:02:38):
man. We're going to havemimosas and we're going to travel
first class and we're going todo all kinds of great things, guys.
But class? What's that? Well,you know what? Probably because you
are part of the bourgeoisie,you are protecting your accumulation.
You aren't one of us. I getwhy this was offend you. I did it.
I would offend me too if Iwere a rich person and didn't want
to hear anything about this.But the gutting of labor has really

(01:03:02):
created such a chasm and theability to fight back has become
such a dirty word that I'mhere to say it's like, you know,
clapping with one hand. Youneed both hands to clap. And if you
don't put them both together.I'm not sure you've got much of anything.
And that's where I'll end it.Daniel, thank you so much. Where
can we find more of your work?

(01:03:22):
I've started a Medium. It'swhere I posted the Mille piece. And
yeah, I did that because Iwanted to get things out as quickly
as possible. I usually just dothe Medium piece and then I'll advertise
for it on X and other socialmedia platforms. And every once in

(01:03:43):
a while I try to get apublication with other bigger venues,
but those are mostly inPortuguese, so maybe the Medium site
is where you can find me.
Well, thank you for letting usrepublish this on realprogressives.org
as well. We put in oursubstack and it got a lot of love
there. Daniel thank you againfor joining me today, folks. My name's
Steve Grumbine. I'm the hostof Macro and Cheese. I'm also the

(01:04:06):
founder of real progressives,a 501C3 not for profit. We live and
die on your contributions. Imean, we don't have any rich people,
we don't have any richbenefactors. We're not rubbing elbows
with the people with moneybecause none of them are donating,
that's for sure. And we aredesperate for your support. We're
a small operation, but we'rein our seventh year of weekly production.

(01:04:27):
Never missed a week of macaroncheese. Think about that. Seven years
a team of volunteers hasworked without so much. And literally,
when you look at our Twitter,you'll see very few MMT actually
retweet our stuff. It's deeplydepressing. We'd love to see more
support, but apparently thatmight be a bridge too far for some.
But we believe in the workwe're doing and we know what we're

(01:04:50):
trying to do and we feel goodabout it. And so hopefully, if you
feel good about it and youenjoy what we're doing, you'll consider
supporting us too. Because itcertainly won't come from places
where people have moneyedinterest, they're not interested,
they're not going to help us.We need your help. And you can do
that on our patreon, which ispatreon.com forward/real progressives.

(01:05:10):
You can go to our website,realprogressives.org There's a dropdown.
Go to donate. Or you can go toour substack, which is substack.com
forward/real progressives.Please support us on our substack
We've got a lot of greatarticles out there. I think we're
doing good work, folks. I'mproud of the work we're doing. Whether
or not we get the support wefeel we deserve or not. I feel good

(01:05:32):
about it and hopefully you doas well. Please also remember this.
Every Tuesday evening we havewhat we call Macro and Chill. It's
a webinar where we gettogether and we discuss each of these
podcasts. It's spirited.Sometimes we've got people that don't
agree. Sometimes we havepeople that have additional information.
Sometimes we have people thatdon't understand any of it. And we're

(01:05:55):
just looking to bring everyoneinto the fold to learn this stuff.
If you've got knowledge andyou are capable of helping out, please
show up to these. It's notjust for your entertainment. We're
looking for people to lean inand provide value in there. So by
all means, consider yourselfinvited. And Daniel, when we do your
show, we'd love to have youcome and be a part of it. It's 8pm

(01:06:15):
Eastern Time on Tuesdaynights, 5pm Pacific Time. Macro and
Chill. You can get the link onour website. It's at the top. We
publish it on Patreon, wepublish it on Substack, we publish
it in all of our Facebookgroups. MMT for rp, Real Progressives,
you name it. Please feel freeto join all of them. Right, we're
there for the cause and we'reworking hard and we need your help.

(01:06:37):
So without further ado, I bidyou adieu on behalf of my guest,
Daniel Kansei Song and myself,Steve Grumby with Macro and Cheese.
We are out of here.
Foreign transcripts, graphics,sound engineering extras and show

(01:06:58):
notes for Macro n Cheese aredone by our volunteer team at Real
Progressives, serving insolidarity with the working class
since 2015.To become a donor,please go to patreon.com realprogressives
realprogressives.substack.comor Real Progressives.