ABUSE: The Death of Jordan Burling

Neil & Rachel discuss the death of Jordan Burling who at the age of 19 passed away in his own home. Were his mum & gran to blame? We find out in this episode.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello mad Our bad listeners, it'sRachel here. I just wanted to take
some time to say a massive thankyou to podcorn for being the sponsor of
this episode. Podcorn is a marketplaceconnecting podcasters two amazing podcast sponsorship opportunities,
and we have had such a brilliantexperience with them. We use them pretty
much every week for our episode ads. So you never give up any of

(00:21):
the rights for your podcasts, andbasically podcorn is here to completely support you,
and really you get to keep allyour own rights. You get to
have creative freedom and you know whatit gives you, transparency and full control
over how it works. So havea lookout for Podcorn on www dot podcorn
dot com. That's Podcorn. Warningthe following podcast may contain descriptions that some

(00:48):
listeners may find a stressing. Listenerdiscretion is advised. Any views are all
our own and do not in anyway reflect the places where we work.
Ell So we'll get straight into it. The thirtieth of June at twenty sixteen

(01:11):
was like any other English summer's dayin Farnley Leads. The day's weather could
be described as having a scattering ofclouds with a peak of sun poking through
Jordan Burling, who was eighteen yearsold at the time. In fact,
a few days from his nineteen birthday, lay lethargically on an inflatable mattress in
his family's lounge, the same placehe had lay for months on end,

(01:34):
struggling to breathe. Jordan had becomephysically unwell over the past couple of months.
He was unable to mobilize due tosevere weakness. Weighing just five stone
eleven pounds, Jordan was not muchmore than twice the weight he would have
been at the age of four fivestony eleven as well. At me,

(01:55):
really literally not a pick on him. He's eighteen, isn't it reason we're
expecting to be ye, sorry,nineteen? Yeah, you didn't expect him
to be. I don't know howtall he was, but even if he
was sort of short, yeah,you'd want him to yeah, and stone
or something. And before we goon, I mean there is pictures online
that were taking off him, likepictures of him before all this happened,

(02:20):
and then pictures of him as helay in bed, and the difference,
I mean, he just doesn't evenlook like the same person at all.
He was quite a chobby teenage,that chobby, but like you know,
around full face, really healthy lookingand obviously the pictures of him laying in
bed, he's just completely amacy.He looks all skin and bone. Yeah.

(02:43):
Since Jordan was bedbanne and virtually mobile, his body had become riddled with
infected bedsres so serious that they weredescribed as wide open wounds. There were
the signs of a person's fist andcontinued deep into his tiny frame, down
through the layers of skin, muscle, and eventually to his bone. The
bedsaws had become so infected that theywere full of sluffy green tissue and exody.

(03:06):
Due to Jordan's weakness and immobility,it becoming continent of both urine and
feces and had to wear an adultincontinence pad at all times. So let's
go back a little bit. Jordanwas eighteen years old and did not have
any diagnosis in regards to any longterm or chronic physical health conditions. He

(03:27):
should have been in a healthy eighteenyear old looking forward to turning nineteen.
However, on that fateful day,his health had, after months of decline,
become acutely affected, so much sothat nine had to be called.
To this day, it's still notclear how he ended up someone well in
the first place. Just two minutesafter the ambulance arrived, Jordan was pronounced

(03:52):
dead. There was absolutely nothing theparamedics could do. It was simply too
late. You may be thinking,what in the world happened that an eighteen
year old was condemned to a long, lingering and painful death on an air
mattress in his living room, andwhy nothing had been done earlier to save

(04:13):
his life. Today we will unravelthe shocking and sad story of the how
and why of Jordan's death. It'sa complicated story, one which will definitely
challenge your belief system. Jordan Berlingwas born to Dawn Cranston and Stephen Burling
in nineteen ninety eight. Dawn andStephen had met at Thomas Stanley Catering College

(04:35):
when he was twenty two, shewas eighteen. They had a daughter,
Abby, and then moved in togetherin Seacroft. According to his father,
Stephen, Dawn was unaware of apregnancy with Jordan. Stephen got home from
way It one day to find nobodyat home. He went to Dawn's mum's
house where it was announced that Dawnhad given birth to a baby boy.

(04:56):
But that was bizarre, though,isn't it? Like I know it does,
and that people that are like unawareof being pregnant. I personally don't
get how people are unaware of likeobviously it does happen. I was only
just pregnant and he could definitely notmiss but it does happen, But I
don't know. As we go onto discuss Dawn and kind of her personality

(05:20):
and her mental health and everything,I think there's more to kind of say
about that. There's more of anexplanation than just physically she didn't look like
she was pregnant, but there wasa lot more going on there. We'll
get onto that. So Jordan wasdescribed as a whatever this means, normal
child, but you know nothing ofnote at the ordinary it will be stubborn,

(05:42):
but enjoyed playing both in an outsidethe family home. So Jordan started
school in two thousand and one andactually struggled quite a lot when he was
there. He was taken out ofschool after just one week, but in
time, with healthcare, educational andsocial services support, he did eventually progress
and went back to school later onwhen he was kind of ten eleven twelve.

(06:04):
He was actually bullied at school tothe point that Dawn decided to educate
him at home, and that commencedfrom the age of twelve. Before all
of this, there was a meetingheld in which the school communicated their worry
that there was a general neglect ofJordan's needs. This is an excerpt from
the meeting's minutes. So in misterKeeley and presumes one of the teachers said

(06:28):
that one school report stated that therewas a general neglect of the child's basic
needs. He was dirty, hisshoes were several sizes too big, with
socks to the front to compensate forthe gap. He was not toilet trained,
and he had defecated on the carpet. His teeth were black, and
it came as no surprise to hismum when she was told. Another school

(06:49):
report documented in quotes mother had troubledsleeping. Father lost his temper with her,
saying when he gets home from nights, she's still in bed and just
mum began to cry, And afterhe had debate, agreed advised about school
routines. So, after these meetingsthat went on in the school, the

(07:12):
family were actually evicted from their homedue to rent a yers and this is
when the family I guess started tohave problems. And because they're evicted from
the home obviously Jordan, you knowthat was but no, that's not going
to help matters as well. Ithink there was a lot of stuff going
on. I mean, you don'tyou sometimes about you know, kind of

(07:38):
cases where social services we're involved,we don't know yet we're or not involved
in this. But if a childI mean I'm not a teacher, but
if a child came to school andthere his age twelve, well he wasn't
twelve sorry, this is this isbefore so he's probably about five six seven.

(08:03):
But even if yeah, so fivesix seven, but I mean he's
not toiler trained at that age.You know, he's clearly they're not taking
care of his needs. He's gotsocks in the front of his shoes,
black teeth and black teeth, Imean, do you know what I mean
this? And his mom's not surprisedat that and kind of like, well,

(08:24):
you know, what's the problem.I know, and it's like,
well, they clearly did like theywere clearly curly had a plan in place
as such, because they were havingmeetings, but it's like, why didn't
it go further? You have toremember as well, I guess you know,
it is difficult to act, isn'tit? For social services as well.
It's not as easy as what peoplemight think. Yeah, that's true,
you know what I mean, Ratherthan just right, that's not the

(08:46):
chart, it's not. No,And they're not baby snatchers or kids sachs,
and they want to work with thefamilies to obviously keep these kids,
you know, at home and withtheir parents. Clearly should be and clearly
we're not. People were struggling,it aren't. It wasn't just yeah,
there was. There was a lotgoing on, I think, not just
Jordan himself, but I think thewider family just had a lot of issues

(09:09):
actually, and obviously all these issuesarguably if the child more than anyone,
don't they they all come down theyYeah, definitely. Due to many factors,
Dawn and Stephen split up. Dawnand the two children went to live
with her mom, Denise, closeby. For a reason unknown, Stephen
drifted apart from his children and didnot see them for years and years.

(09:30):
In quotes in court, he describedhow he cut off from them completely.
He didn't want to go and seethe kids, just got on with his
work and that was it. Ifound him. I read all of the
core transcripts and he had quite alot of cross examination. Yeah, and
he was just a bit bizarre,to be honest, like really just like

(09:56):
they asked him like really simple directquestions like what age you know? Up
until what age did you see thekids? And he was like, oh,
I can't remember, Like how doyou not know? Those things?
Like I'm not sure whether he hassomething going on as well, but it
just sounded job didn't he he did, but it sounded people can do that,
but it just sounded like after theysplit up, like he almost just

(10:18):
he just kind of washed his handsoff. And maybe it was like a
psychological thing that he cut himself off, Yeah, because he didn't get along
with Dennise and he didn't get alongwith Dawn the mother. Yeah, so
I think in a way it wasjust and God only knows what was going
on behind closed doors, do youknow what I mean? God only knows,

(10:39):
But I think it was just hisway of kind of self preserving himself.
Probably we're not saying self preserving,you know what I'm saying, you
can not excusing him for that.But you can kind of see, but
he just had this kind of aI don't know, just a distance.
There's a there's a distance there,definitely, Stephen did. Eventually he with

(11:00):
his children. Jordan would have beenabout sixteen at a time. For some
time, Jordan and Abbey would visitStephen at his house, and Stephen described
Jordan as chubby and happy. However, things took a turn when Jordan was
about seventeen or just closely going oneighteen. Stephen described seeing Jordan for the
last time in quotes, he waspoorly when he came up on a few

(11:22):
saturdays. He didn't look so well. He was breathless, and he looked
pale. Jordan explained he was notfeeling well and that he had eaten something
bad. Stephen had asked the Abbeto tell her mom to take Jordan to
the doctors. So Jordan's mother,Dawn had experienced chronic mental health issues herself,
and this was ongoing during Jordan andAbbey's childhood, and they were never

(11:46):
really treated or never really acknowledged assuch. She had attendered doctors complaining of
feeling under a lot of stress earlieron in Jordan's childhood, and doctors had
commented that she sometimes appear slightly hypomanic, so not the full kind of mania,
but just a little bit I guesshyper in a way. I guess

(12:07):
it's probably the best way of describingit. Don't experience quite significant trauma herself
in her own life. She wassexually assaulted at age fourteen and told nobody
at the time, and she wasbullied for years at end at school.
Her family had endured harassments by nuisanceyouthes for years on end, and her
father had taken his life by suicidein the bedroom next to hers. In

(12:30):
two thousand and six, a psychiatristat court testified that Dawn herself was likely
to be suffering from a disassociate ofstate at the time of Jordan becoming unwell
due to those previous factors. Imean, that's certainly going to have I
mean, that's some trauma there,isn't it. Hi All, We just
want to let you know how thankfulwe are for Best Fiends for sponsoring this

(12:50):
episode of Mad or Bad. Iwant to know a little about Best Fiends.
Best Fiends is a fun puzzle gamethat you can play on your phone,
whether online, or offline. It'sa cute, super casual game that
anyone can really play. I'm currentlyat home with a week old baby,
which is amazing and fun, butsometimes it's nice to have something to challenge
my baby brain with and keep thosebrain juices working. That's where Best Fiends

(13:13):
comes in. It's nice for Rachelas she can play while she's feeding the
baby and can put it down andpick it back up as she likes.
I'm not sure whether baby brain extendsto dads, but either way, it's
fun to have an easy game thatanyone can play on my phone. I
also enjoy how I don't actually needto play online. It can be played
offline too. Best Fiends updates thegame monthly, so there are always new

(13:33):
levels, new characters to collect,a new challenges so you'll never ever get
bored. The game is everywhere atthe moment. Engage your brain with fun
puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me. With over one hundred
million downloads, this five star ratedmobile puzzle game is a must play.
Download Best Fiends free on the AppleApp Store or Google Play and let us

(13:54):
know on social media how much you'reenjoying the game. That's friends without the
art fiends. There's a lot goingon there for her regards her mental health
though, But one other thing alsoneeds mentioning. Dawn had experienced a miscarriage,
and the evidence was not found untilafter Jordan's death. Quoting from the

(14:16):
court case in quotes, in thewardrobe of the bedroom at the house you
have lived in since two thousand andtwo, concealed on the top shelf,
the police recovered a rucksack within severalother plastic bags. In the rucksack were
the remains of a full term baby. You said it was a boy.
It was not possible to say whetherthe child had been born dead or alive.

(14:39):
Only the bones and teeth remained intact, from which experts were able to
confirm that the child was aged betweenthirty eight and forty weeks. Close quotes,
that's awful. List can imagine thepolice officer finning. I know it
was literally on the top of awardrobe. I mean it, He's s

(15:00):
yeah, I mean the serious issueshere with Dawn, isn't it. I
mean, that's the second pregnancy.I'm not saying she concealed the first pregnancy,
but I just have a feeling thatactually she did know, and it
was almost a thing of I justif I don't say anything, it's not
happening. And this is the secondtime almost you know, we all are,

(15:22):
but you know it. It isthat way of coping us um and
god, you know she had shehad. It's not really a miscarriage.
Is she obviously gave birth at fullterm, baby was still born. This
is this is what Dawn says anywayin the court. In the court,
Yeah, I mean, they don'tknow whether it was born dead or a

(15:43):
lot. She says he was.She said he was, She said it
was born. Who knows take herword for it, um, because he
probably wasn't abbing. I could well, you know he wasn't abbing obviously,
you know, prenatal, no nothing. And you know she I'm not being

(16:03):
what's what was she you know aboutthe pregnancies and things? What was she
a big lady. I just wonderif the pregnancy could like because when you
were pregnant, obviously from the frontyou could tell he'd either eating the Christmas
turkey or you were pregnant. No, I mean, I'm not trying to

(16:25):
be disrespectful to she's not thin,but she's not like a very large lady.
Any reason I asked kind of somewherein between her. Yeah. The
only reason I ask about size isthat if you know, if she was
a large symptom, surely well,no, if you was a large lady,
you would, you would. Itwould not be as obvious, is
my Is my point with no?No, Yeah, I get what you're
saying, but I think there's probablya lot more to it, And I

(16:47):
think from a psychological kind of perspective, it was a combination of all these
experiences, in the psychiatrist's opinion,that caused On to physically and psychologically retreat
within the family home, interacting normallywith the outside world, shutting down in
the face of any stress. Jordan'shealth continued to deteriorate. On the twenty
fifth November twenty fifteen, Dawn spokewith a manager at work, disclosing that

(17:12):
Jordan had lost nearly two stony weight. Dawn reported that she had taken Jordan
to the doctor. Despite Jordan's apparentreservations. Dawn continued to disclose to her
manager and co workers at work thatJordan was unwell and that being diagnosed as
malnourished, and that he was prescribedmultivity means by his doctor. Sadly,

(17:34):
there's no evidence at Dawn ever didbring Jordan to the doctor. I always
find this interesting that she almost knewthat. So she's saying these things to
her manager and too staff at work, so she's obviously aware that there's something
wrong. Yeah, but yet neveractually did take them to the doctor,

(17:55):
because there's no records of her.But then why did she lie about it?
Dawn work as well? Then soshe could keep her job. Dawn
does that work. But don't getme wrong. It can be an earth
from stress and still depends what yourjob is, doesn't it. Of course.
Yeah, I think she worked inlike a BNM or something. But

(18:17):
yeah, I thought that was quiteinteresting that she had the awareness to say
that to a manager, which Ijust think is a bit bizarre action.
And I look at that what she'ssaying, it's trying to cover us kind
of thing. I don't know thatwho knows, who knows? We don't
know. She never did see medicaladvice, but it seems she knew that
this was the expected thing to do. Hence, while she continued to lie

(18:38):
to colleagues, we say, lie, that's how it appears. Yeah,
maybe that wasn't a Dawn's specific intention. We don't know, but it appears
that she lied to colleagues. Soyeah, and as Rachel says, we
don't sadly. On the third Junetwenty sixteen, Dawn told a friend,

(19:00):
Laura Thomas, that Jordan was bedriddenand that he had been seen by various
doctors but they could not figure outwhat was wrong with him. Again,
that's untrue. He had never beenseen by doctors in a long long time
actually, And again when he waswhen we said earlier on in this episode,
when he was aged five or sixtyseven, you know, when he
was at school, Yeah, becauseyou know, school are where, and

(19:26):
there were review meetings, et cetera, yea, and they'd be like health
visitors and stuff, wouldn't there.Yeah, So I wonder why that.
I don't know. I guess theymust have thought the risk. I know,
maybe for a while things were okayand they discharged him. Then obviously
she pulled him out of school ata at age twelve, was home schooling
him. People fall through the cracksand as why you would think that,

(19:48):
wouldn't you with this history and pullinghim out of school, so that that
contact with professionals is lost, becauseyou'd think that like that would almost like
trigger something. Yeah, not necessarilybased on not necessarily based on the how
he was at five or six yearsold, but just the fact they'd been
taken out of home school. Soyou think that his schooling would be Yeah,

(20:10):
okay, if you want to homeschool him, Yeah, but we'll
do a review or something. Idon't know, I don't but you wouldn't
you would kind of, you know. Dawn reported during the hearing so obviously
the trial that Jordan consistently refused tosee a doctor. This may have been
his choice at one time or anotherwhen he may have had the capacity to

(20:33):
make this decision fully knowing the potentialbenefits and consequences of such an action.
However, there would have come apoint where Jordan's physical and mental health would
have deteriorated to the point where hewould not have been making a capacitus decision
regarding his health, and therefore itwould fall in the hands of his care
as both Dawn and his grandmother toseek medical attention, despite Jordan's apparent protests.

(20:56):
I mean, we're obviously not surewhere. I don't know when that
happened or you know what I mean, because this went on for a long
time. Yeah, I mean,and where is where is the kind of
line of oh, right, he'snot capacity in our work, isn't it?
If people are deemed to have capacityto refuse um physical treatment, physical

(21:21):
treatment, then there's nothing unless thatbecomes life threatening. Yeah, there's there's
really nothing you can do. Sowe're not one hundred percent sure with Jordan.
I mean, you know, butobviously capacity is only at that time.
Yea often was it reviewed? Youknow? That's the thing as well,

(21:42):
isn't it. Yeah, it's atricky one. It seems Dawn assumed
that because Jordan was as certain thathe did not want to be seen by
a doctor, that this was youknow, that was his decision absolute,
and there was no room for otheradults to make decisions on behalf of him.
It's confusing. It's very difficult tounderstand Dawn's frame of mind ere thing.

(22:03):
It's almost like she became mentally andemotionally detached from the situation and was
not able to fully comprehend the significanceof his deterioration. Kind of like a
like we mentioned earlier. If Idon't fully acknowledge it myself, then surely
it can't be that big of aproblem. In Dawn's own words, quote,
I was doing what he wanted,but at that point I started to

(22:25):
shut down and get stressed. Soduring this time, Jordan began to develop
pressure sores on his body from beingso immobile in bed. Dawn and her
mom Denise did in fact nurse himin regards to this, and they did
so really to the best of theirabilities. It seemed maybe they were able
to acknowledge the importance of his physicalhealth and relation to the bed sores,

(22:48):
because it's something you can see acentury and it almost seems as if they
concentrated all of their efforts into nursingthese bed sores and really not looking at
the full picture. Denise Ranston,the grandmother, said that Jordan Burling would
have his nappies changed on the sofa. She and her daughter Dawn would carry
him there and then undress him.So here's a little bit of an excerpt

(23:11):
from the Core transcripts. So thequestion was would you take the nappies off
so he was completely naked, andshe said yes, you mentioned sanitary tells,
yes, we would put them overhis bed sores. She did take
photos of Jordan's rapidly decreasing bodily weight. However, it's not clear what the
intention of these photos was. Ithink she was taking these photos to show

(23:34):
Jordan to be like, look athow thin you've gotten. You need to
go and see a doctor. Soyou know, she was trying to convince
him to a certain degree. Dowe know, I mean, obviously because
of the physical complications that could wellimpact on or have impacted on, Jordan's

(23:56):
mental state. Yeah, do weknow whether Jordan had any kind of sort
of diagnosis of any mental health issues. He had no diagnosis, but it
looks I mean when you when youkind of go through all of the information,
it looks like quite possibly there wasa depression, I would say from

(24:18):
like my own like experience. Butthey never they never like diagnosed anything with
him because he never saw anyone tobe diagnosed, So how could you,
So you're really only going off youknow, what the family said and kind
of how you know, all thatkind of stuff. So it's tricky.
So Jordan continued to decline to seehis doctor and his continue his condition continued

(24:41):
to deteriorate. This is from apolice interview. Actually, according to doctor
Van Veltzen, who's a psychiatrist.He was a psychiatrist who saw Dawn.
She takes a picture of Jordan,and we see that he looks so thin,
emaciated, and she doesn't see itin a way because her need to
feel and see that she's a goodmother taking care of her her son overrides
her capacity to acknowledge what she isseeing. She later added quotes in her

(25:04):
mind, she was looking after himand not seeing the reality of what was
going on. She also told thecourt that Dawn displayed signs of a diminished
sense of agency. When explaining thatterm, she said that it is when
you are an onlooker onto yourself andnot actually taking action to manage the situation
in a healthy way. She alsocited Dawn's decision to hide her dead child

(25:26):
in a wardrobe as you know,a prime example of this. Again,
there's there's quite a few different exampleshappening in her life of of not really
seeing the full I guess gravity ofof what's happening. Yeah, you know,
it appears, doesn't it that.I mean, we'll come on to
what happen in court and everything.She's either you know, an Oscar winning

(25:53):
actress in how she's presenting all theserious isn't they, which sadly impacted on
the Jordan. Yeah, I'm likeI was reading loads of the Redder stuff
and like everyone's like, oh,yeah, she's such a horrible person.
Blah blah blah bla. I justcan't see it that way. Actually,
like I don't see it that way. She clearly had a lot of issues

(26:17):
going on. Yeah, she's aneasy target, isn't She's criticized she is,
and they're both here, and evenAbbey, the daughter who was involved.
I mean, she didn't live inthe house, but she was in
the house quite a lot frequently.They all had a big power to play
in it. But I mean it'sI mean argument Abby, you might not
the wearier to attribute blame to anyone. That's not what we do. We're

(26:38):
just presenting, but um one mightthere could be an argument for the I
mean, I don't know about Abby'smental state, but could you know if
if we're going to blame anyone,I'm not blaming anyone, but you know,
Abby could have because don't had lotsof issues. We can see that.
Yeah, I think that active.Okay, I'm yeah, we're not

(27:02):
easy to blame anyone. So thirtythof June would be Jordan's last day live
in. The coroner would conclude thatJordan's cause of death was acute broncho pneumonia
in chronic severe malnutrition. There wasno evidence of a medical cause to his
deterioration. I think that's quite interesting. So there was no evidence of a
medical cause as to why he waslosing weight. He was basically not eating.

(27:30):
I wouldn't say out of choice,but clearly there's something going on from
a mental health perspective, I think, because there's not a medical reason why
he's not eating, it's severely depressed. The Yeah, but it's like it's
such a strange thing though. Imean, he went from being so well
to being so unwell, and there'snot really there's not really like a clear

(27:52):
time when that happened. It justseems to have kind of happened, and
nobody seems to really know or beable to pinpow point a time when he
was, you know, starting torefuse food and fluids and stuff. It's,
yeah, it's weird. During thehearing, both Dawn So Jordan's mom,
and Denise, Jordan's grandmother, whoalso lived in the house and helped

(28:15):
care for Jordan, described his lastmonths in detail and even describe Jordan's pressure
sores as having quote greening them,sometimes pink or read sometimes all three.
Both Dodordan Denise's sisted that they wouldonly speak about Jordan going to a doctor
in his presence, and that thefact he kept declining to go to the
doctor was reason enough not to makeany further attempts to seek medical attention.

(28:37):
When Denise was asked what she woulddo differently in hindsight if anything, she
said, quote, I probably wouldhave called a doctrine secret, but he
would have refused to see the doctorend quote. There seems to be no
understanding that Jordan was so well himselfwe thinking call of more mentally here that

(28:57):
he could not have posibly understood theconsequences of his actions. Jordan never expressed
the death wish, but equally didn'tseem to express any understanding of the consequences
of not seeking medical care as faras we know, as far as we
know, so yeah, so whatwas the outcome? In court? Dahn
Kranston was sentenced to four years forthe man's laughter of Jordan burling, as

(29:21):
well as two years for the concealmentof the birth of her child, whom
she buried in the wardrobe. Dahn'smother, de niece, received a sentence
of three years for the manslaughter.Finally, Jordan's sister, who did not
live with the address, but whodid spend quite a large proportion of her
day at the address where Jordan lived, received eighteen months reckless behavior. Her

(29:41):
daughter was also removed from from hercare as part of the police proceedings.
Looking at all the facts, itseems like Jordan may have been experiencing depression
himself, as we've kind of alreadygone over. Yeah, I mean,
I can't really come up with anyother theory as to why he would just
stop eating and drinking like and literallyjust take to the bed like. It

(30:03):
just doesn't there's no other explanation fromthe information that we had. It was
quite closed out, no professionals gettingin, Yes, and you're you're relying
solely on Denise and Dawn and thekind of their descriptions of what has happened,
and also his dad, who literallycannot even remember when the last time
he saw him was, do youknow what I mean? Yeah, it's
all very bizarre. So according toDenise and Dawn, and this is in

(30:27):
quote, when he got to eighteen, he said, I'm a man and
that is it. We said tohim he got a bit thinner, but
he said, oh no. Hewent to the toilet one day and he
says something had gone in his leg. He came back and said, I
won't walk again. We kept tellinghim to go to the doctor. He
decided one day not to walk.And this is from the police interview.

(30:48):
To me, it seemed like anobvious case for Mental Health Act assessment.
But I don't know what you're thinkingabout that. Well, yeah, from
the information we've got, I mean, I mean, obviously you need to
clear some kind of if there's anyphysical work underlying factors there. I mean,
its apparently said something's gone in meleg. I literally think his answering
or something like he's like his don'tI don't know, but I literally think

(31:14):
that was just like an excuse tobasically just be like, to know what,
I don't want to go anywhere anymore. I just want to lie in
bed, you know, I wantto be nursed. I don't want to
eat and drink. Yeah, Imean, if I think that was just
it's like maybe he did hurt hisleg or something and that was like just
an excuse and to take to thebed rate if that, if that was
a patient, I mean, hewasn't a patient, but like, if

(31:36):
that was a patient, you thinkingtaking his refusing you know, that might
be chore kind of choice, butnot a choice if you are mentally Yeah,
yeah, is his mental health afactor making him think? Yeah,
you see what I mean. It'sbut obviously and the issue is that there

(32:00):
was no professionals in the house,anybody to to trigger anything. So it
was just this thing that happened,and no one really knew anything about it.
I mean, yeah, his manager, you know, her manager,
Dawn's manager, and like some ofthe staff knew and had a little bit
of an idea. Well, they'renot going to but you. But if
you heard that, you wouldn't doanything because because she's saying to you or

(32:22):
we've brought him to the doctor andblah blah blah. You won't think anymore.
If someone and you know you hadthat kind of you just think,
oh, they're having a bad time, you know. Yeah, well you
might say in passing the next dayif your mind wasn't on your work or
other things. You might say,how did he go on the doctors?
But that's as far as it gointo. Really. Yeah, in reality,
I think the only thing that Ican think is that I don't understand

(32:45):
why the dad didn't do more becausehe was in contact with Abby, and
Abby was obviously aware of what washappening, and Abby was relaying this information
to him, and he was obviouslyaware that Jordan Watson coming to see him
anymore as well, So like youshould and that's a baby's baby. He
has something to say, like shouldn'the have questioned that a bit more?

(33:08):
But again he feels it just seemslike they're all just like in denial,
Like if I don't know really what'shappening, then I don't have to really
do anything about it. Yeah,I mean he should have done, shouldn't
he. I mean, surely you'dbe like going with my son? But
is soun? Isn't he? Andyeah he's eighteen, But that don't make

(33:28):
any difference if someone's own, well, they're well, this is still soun.
Isn't it matter if he's yeah whatever, And the other thing that kind
of came up from me was withDenise and with Dawn, because I think
they're both like almost like the sameperson to they like they sound very similar
in regards to like their personality andkind of how they interpreted things and how
they made sense of things. AndI do kind of question whether they have

(33:51):
it like an undiagnosed um like learningdisability because it's that, or autism because
it's that like fixed thinking, isn'tit of Oh he's an adult, he's
saying. No, it's very rigidability to it. Or there's no seeing
anything else? Yeah, maybe maybe, I mean we I mean we don't

(34:12):
you know she never considered any otheroption, really, did Shay, Because
wouldn't you like if if you werereally unwell and if you were declined to
see a doctor, I'd like callthe doctor anyway. I'll deal with that
one when the doctor comes, andI'll deal with the backlash. But like
you call it anything. The thingis, if the doctor came and Jordan
was like, no, I'm notseeing him. But if the doctor even
got a sight of him, yeah, they'd be like there's something something going,

(34:36):
couldn't they? Yeah? Do youknow what I mean? Being in
social services, weren't he yeah,saying I've just been around to Yeah,
it's I think her mental state hada lot to do with it though,
and and just kind of a fixedthinking, but that I've already said that
I fixed thinking, but also theinability to really understand in reality what's actually

(35:00):
Yeah. Yeah, So that isthe end of the episode. Thankay,
Okay, it's a very tired Neiland Mitchel. Yes, we have a
newborn baby and he has decided thathe only wants to fall asleep in my
arms. Fun. I mean,I'm not mad at him. He's only
two weeks old. Yeah, weleave Malt and this is his first episode.

(35:21):
Actually, say, he's been inthe background. If you've heard some
squeaking, it is the baby's quakydoor. He's currently sat on Daddy's laugh
there he is creaky door. Sothank you for listening, and thank you
from Noah yeah for it. Youmight have had a cat as well at
some stage, and there was definitelywe just can't we can't cope any longer.

(35:45):
Some cats are all around, andbaby is squeaking and he's gone to
ship. It's what it is now. You're gonna have to get over it.
But we will see you next weekfor Mini Mad or Bad by as
always, catch us on Facebook dotcom Forward slash mad or Bad. You
can catch us on Twitter. Ourhandle is at mad or Bad the Pod.

(36:09):
And also we now have a Patreonaccount, so please go look us
up at as Patreon dot com,forward slash mad or Bad. You can
access exclusive content. We have exclusiveepisodes only available to Patreon supporters, so
yeah, go find us