EXCLUSIVE BONUS EPISODE: True Crime Crossover Episode (7 stories!)

Featuring the wonderful Murder & More, True Crime & Wine Time, True Crime Lab, Eat Crime Podcast & True Crime Real Time Podcast.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Justice League Crossover Podcast. I am JT from True Crime Lab
podcast, and I am joined byso many other people. It is the
biggest crossover that I have ever beena part of or heard about, so
I'm really excited. So I'm gonnaI'm gonna pass it over to Rachel.
Hey, I'm Rachel. I'm onehalf of Mad or Bad True Crime podcast

(00:21):
and we are from the UK.I'm Caitlin and I'm Amy, and we're
from Eat Crime also in the UnitedStates. I'm Kia and I'm the host
of madram More and I'm in theUK and I am Terry, the host
of True Crime and Wine Time,and I am located in Texas. This
is Genevieve Germaine. I'm from TrueCrime Real Time and I'm located in Canada.

(00:44):
All right, thanks everybody for introducingyourself. What we're gonna do today
for all of our listeners is weare each going to tell a story or
give a case to everybody else,and then every time that somebody tells a
case, and then we're going totalk about it, break it down a
little bit afterwards, and move onto the next one. So this is
gonna be a just a fun filled, fun filled crossover. I'm really excited

(01:07):
about it, and I have thepleasure of setting the bar, and it
shall be set very low. Getready, hey JT. Knowing all of
us are true crime addicts, shit, it's is it safe to The episode
is going to contain graphic content andadult language. It may not be suitable

(01:30):
for all listeners. Yeah, fuckyes, it is. Okay, get
it out way, yeah yeah itum. Do you want me to do
a thing? Do you want meto do it? You just leave what
I did? I like it.I like it. You've been warned,
all right. So we're gonna hopinto my case with Harry Powers, who

(01:53):
is also known as the blue Beardfrom Quiet Dell or the Lonely Hearts ad
Killer. And I picked him because, well, he's kind of from around
my general area and his name wasHarry Powers and it made me chuckle.
So Harry Powers was born harm Drengthon November seventeenth, eighteen ninety three,
in Berta, Groeninggen, Netherlands.I hope I said that right. If

(02:15):
I didn't, I'm sure at leastsomebody can holler at me from here.
He went by a few other namesduring his life. Including John Schroeder,
Cornelius O. Pearson, and A. R. Weaver. He and his
family emigrated to the United States innineteen ten. They lived in Cedar Rapids,
Iowa, and then they moved toWest Virginia in nineteen twenty six.

(02:36):
Q Banjoe, However, Herman didnot want to be an immigrant farmer like
his father. Harry wanted a higherstandard of living and planned to use the
resources and opportunities available in America thatwere unavailable in his home country to gain
money. When nineteen twenty seven camearound, a year after moving to West
Virginia, he married Luella Struther.And I can think of no more West

(03:00):
Virginian named than Luella, except ifMay was in the middle of it.
Luella May Luelle May So. Luellawas the owner of a farm and grocery
store. Luella had posted a lonelyhearts ad in the Lonely Hearts magazine.
This interested me, of course,and I had to do some research into

(03:22):
this lonely hearts thing. Does anybodyknow about the lonely hearts ads and what
they are? Sounds kind of likemaybe like tinder for the for the older
generation. Favorite Tinder. Yeah,yes, that's pretty much what it is,
old time hook up ads for thehumble. They go back like historically,

(03:45):
don't say, because I get acase on bell Gones and that was
kind of late eighteen hundred thirty nineteenhundreds, and she was using lonely hearts
ads too to con find people tokill. Really, why I had no
they went that far back. Oh, oh, yes they do. And
I'm going to talk about that ina second here. So I want to

(04:05):
talk about the Lonely Hearts ads becausethey were super interesting to me. It's
the first time that I had reallyseen this in terms of printed media.
They were popular in the early twentiethcentury and could be seen as the precursor
of Craigslist, Tinder, and anyother dating app that's out there. Dating
app great well for some it is. So that was really kind of the

(04:28):
trouble with the lonely Hearts ads.It was meeting somebody entirely out of context.
There was no way of knowing thatthey were anyone in terms of who
they said they were, So itwas kind of like the first edition catfish.
Although the Lonely Hearts ads were popularin the US in the early twentieth
century. They've actually been used inthe UK since sixteen ninety five, and
the first to appear was by athirty year old man with quote a very

(04:50):
good estate, announcing that he wasin search of some good young gentlewoman that
has a fortune of three thousand poundsor thereabouts. Most reading it would have
kind of gasped at his ambition,as three thousand pounds is the equivalent to
around three hundred thousand pounds today.Um. In seventeen fifty one, gentleman
went as far as describing his idealmate within those ads, where he wrote,

(05:14):
quote good teeth, soft lips,sweet breath, with eyes no matter
what color. So they are,um, so they're as long as they're
expressive of a healthy complexion, ratherinclined to fair than brown, A good
understanding without being a wit, butcheerful and lively in conversation. Why I
just have to sop? Why goodteeth? Did anybody? I mean it

(05:38):
was back then. Well that's howyou check for horses, if the horses
are in health and good health.Oh yeah, I mean you've got to
make sure that you're breeding with somebodythat's healthy. Okay. Somebody had actually

(05:58):
written that they didn't want to bodilydeformity, and another wrote that they wanted
shapely ankles. I know when Iwent into this history, you were like,
why is he talking about this?But it's totally worth it. So
of course men were not the onlyones to write these. A woman wrote
quote, he must never drink abovetwo bottles of claret or one of port

(06:21):
at a sitting, and that butthree times a week. He must pay
constant attention to me and company andnot ogle by Swinton looks he missed,
never get up after twelve or risebefore nine o'clock. In a word,
he must be the very man heought to be. Wow, ask him
for a lot. So this isthe kind of thing that the Lonely Hearts

(06:45):
ads had included. So when Harryresponded to Luella Struther and married her in
nineteen twenty seven, I guess Iguess it worked. It was a success
story. They would be on someTV show ad if there was TV.
Except at the same time, youknow, it didn't work. So although
he was married, Powers decided totake out his own Lonely Heart's ad to
gain more money and companionship. Heposted false information in his ad in an

(07:11):
attempt to capture the hearts of lonelywomen catfish. Many women would write back
in response to his advertisement, andthere was a quote there that said Poster
Records later indicated that replies to powersadvertisement poured in at a rate of ten
to twenty letters per day. Wow, I know, tell me about it,

(07:32):
he wrote on Tinder, would youswipe left? So? At the
same time, Powers was constructing agarage and a basement at his home in
Quiet Dell. The garage was laterdiscovered to be the scene of the murders
of which he was convicted, sohe wanted to physically capture their hearts physically

(08:00):
for a Let's get physical physical,all right, so let's talk about those
murders. Using an alias Cornelius O. Pearson, Powers began writing letters to
ask to Ike her. She wasa widowed mother of three residing in Parkridge,
Illinois. He went to visit herand her children, Greta, Harry,

(08:22):
and Annabelle on June twenty third,nineteen thirty one, and soon left
with Iker for several days. Theyleft the children with Elizabeth Abernachte, who
would care for the children until shereceived a letter saying that Harry or Cornelius
Pearson was going to come pick upthe children to join him and their mother.
He arrived and sent a child tothe bank to withdraw money from Iker's

(08:45):
account. The child dutifully left,and neighbors Lucky Louse per Se were concerned
about their disappearance, so Power saidthey went on a trip to Europe.
A little while later, Powers courtedDorothy Pressler Lemke. She lived in north
Borough, Massachusetts, and was alsolooking for love through the Lonely Hearts AD.

(09:05):
He brought her to Iowa to marryand persuaded her to withdraw four thousand
dollars from her bank account. Ithink that should have been a clue,
but she did not notice that.Instead of sending her trunks to Iowa,
and by trunks, I don't meanpants, I mean big old trunks of
clothes. Instead of sending her trunksto Iowa, where Powers claimed to be

(09:26):
living, he sent them to theaddress of Cornelius O. Pearson of West
Virginia. Asta Iker, her children, and Dorothy Lemky had disappeared with no
explanation in August of nineteen thirty one, not two months after he first met
Asta. Police began investigating the disappearancesof her and her children. They began
with Powers as he was discovered emptyingthe house of asta Iker talk about being

(09:50):
caught. They found love letters whichled them to Quiet Dell Powers home,
so his home was searched, andoh boy, did they find what they
were looking for. When police searchedhis home, they immediately came across the
crime scene and it was contained withinfour rooms located under Pearson's garage. They
found bloody clothing, hair, aburned bank book, and a small bloody

(10:13):
footprint of a child. Of course, yeah, of course. At this
time people started to arrive at thescene and they wanted to see what was
going on, because well it wasthe nineteen thirties. Police dug up a
freshly filled ditch found on Power's propertyand to that, I say, get
some sod man. They found thebodies of asta Iker, her children,
and Dorothy Lemkey there. Autopsy resultsand evidence showed the two girls and their

(10:39):
mother were strangled to death, whilethe young boy's head was beaten in with
a hammer was uncovered and was foundto have a belt wrapped around her neck.
Love letters were found in the trunkof powers automobile. He had written
back to numerous women with the intentionof stealing their money and killing them.
Needless to say, Harry Powers wascaught on September twentieth, nineteen thirty one.

(11:01):
While Powers was in jail, alynch mob was formed and attempted to
take justice into their own hands.And they said, you are going to
give us him, and we aregoing to lynch him. And they were
actually pushed back and dispersed first byfire hoses and when that didn't work,
tear gas. I wasn't exactly awarethat tear gas in nineteenth Well, no,
that's not true because of World WarOne. I'm going to nix that.

(11:22):
Feel stupid and move on, okay. Powers was moved to West Virginia
State Penitentiary in Moundsville. The triallasted five days and was held at a
local opera house because of the largenumber of spectators. Multiple witnesses testified to
the evidence and Powers home and thathe had been seen with the victims and

(11:43):
picked up their luggage. And thenPowers also testified for himself, but on
December twelfth, nineteen thirty one,he received a sentence from the judge.
Judge John Southern stated it is thejudgment of the court that you be taken
to the State Penitentiary at Poundsville tobe kept and treated in the manner provided
by law, and then hanged bythe neck until dead on March eighteenth,

(12:07):
nineteen thirty two, between the hoursof sunrise and sunset. I'm quite sure
why he had a European accent whenhe's in the South, but we're gonna
go with it. We're gonna gowith it. March eighteenth, nineteen thirty
two came around and Powers walked upto the scaffold at the penitentiary to be
hanged. He declined a last statement. The guard put a cap over his

(12:28):
head, and at nine am theypushed the button that dropped Powers. After
eleven minutes of hanging, he waspronounced dead by the prison doctor and a
physician. And that is the quickcase of Harry Powers. Where was his
wife? How did she not knowhe was killing these people in their basement?

(12:52):
I mean, there's not really aweb browser that you can like search,
you know, he can't. Hedoesn't even have to clear his history,
like wow, and why did wehave to Why did he kill the
kids? I'm just asking, I'mjust the great questions that I don't have
answers too. Did he sexually assaultthem? I didn't see anything that said

(13:15):
that. I think so he wasall about money. Yeah, I think
he wanted the money. And Icouldn't find a total number of letters that
he had sent two different women.I would imagine that he was probably.
I mean, he was fishing,right, So what do you do when
you're trying to get responses for anybusiness? You send out hundreds, right
to get just new responses. SoI don't know exactly how many, but

(13:37):
I'm sure it was a lot.I'm a photocopier as well, I have
to actually physically write all those lettersout. Yeah, did anywhere did it
say what his ads said that somany women were hook winked into thinking he
was great? I didn't see itliterally what I read on here from those

(13:58):
lonely hearts add I had to reallykind of dig and find examples, so
I didn't see anything specific, butI would imagine that he was very good
at manipulating himself to be whoever theyneeded him to be. Yeah, and
he also convinced people to take outbasically their entire life savings without knowing them
very well. I'm gonna need youto take four thousand dollars out. Well,

(14:20):
that's awfully specific. But women getlonely, they're desperate, they you
know, yeah, yeah, andI mean back then an unmarried woman was
scorned upon. Yeah. Oh whichbad huh bad, huh problem. This
is not that long ago invented.Yeah, they were looking up things,

(14:48):
we're looking down. He built thatgarage and then dug out the basement,
and this is where he did everything. So I GNA. I'm just gonna
say, handsome heavy starts wanting tobuild an underneath garage, I'm filing for
divorce. Just throwing it out there. I'm out of there. At least
get the blue prints first. Takea look. If there's four rooms,

(15:11):
run ad on a garage or undergroundbasement underneath your house next to the house.
Though he just built a garage.He built a basement under the just
a garage. So he built agarage dug No one saw him digging underneath
him his house. He was coveredby a garage. He thought it's true.

(15:37):
I like to say on the newslast night here in Texas was a
one mile long tunnel dug from Mexicoto Texas. I heard about that.
It can be done I've had electricityand it did brooms not even Madam just
impressed. Good case. Yeah,it was a good one. I enjoyed

(16:00):
it all right. So that wasme. Let's head on to what Rachel
right. Yes, I really wantedto tell everyone a really sad, sad
story actually of a really vulnerable ladywho sadly met her demise at the hands
of her two careers. I say, the term care is really loosely and
you will come to understand why.There was actually an amazing BBC documentary not

(16:26):
so long ago on her case,which I think is still available now if
you're interested in watching it, andit just inspired me to tell you all
her story because I believe, sadlythere are many, many, many other
vulnerable people in our society and theydo fall through the net, and this
is an example of one such lady. So her name was Margaret Fleming.
She was a lady with quite moderatelearning disabilities who for most of her life

(16:51):
was cared for by her father.Her father sadly passed away when she was
in her early adult years, andhe wished his two friends to be her
careers. Their names were Edward Kearneyand Avril Jones. And you know,
obviously he must have really trusted themto take over her care. Really.
During the nineties, Edward, Avriland Margaret lived in a home in invert

(17:12):
Kip, which is a teeny tinylittle village on the west coast of Scotland.
It's about an hour's drive from Glasgow. Margaret tended to keep to herself
a lot, and while some peopleknew of her in the village, generally
she didn't tend to venture out much, so she wasn't really that well known
in the area. In two thousandand sixteen, with the change of the
benefit system in the UK basically changedto a system called PIP which is short

(17:37):
for Personal Independence Payment, Margaret neededto reapply for her benefits. So Avril
was the one to do this forMargaret, as Margaret wouldn't have been able
to do it herself, and itsoon became clear from social services perspectives that
Margaret had not been seen by anyindependent person since December in nineteen ninety nine,

(17:57):
so this included annie, doctors orany social workers or any general member
of the public really, So thatis a massive seventeen years in which Margaret,
a lady with moderate learning disabilities andTherefore, a lady with help needs
and needs for continuing support from socialservices had not been in contact with any

(18:18):
services at all. So seventeen yearsshe literally vanished from the face of the
earth, and the last time shewas seen was December in nineteen ninety nine,
Police were notified of her disappearance andthey began looking into her disappearance.
Since she had disappeared, remember thelast time she was seen was December in
nineteen ninety nine, both Edward andAvril had kept claiming her benefits, so

(18:42):
in total they claimed a massive onehundred and eighty two thousand pounds in benefits
since nineteen ninety nine. They wereunable to provide any evidence of Margaret's whereabouts.
However, insisted that Margaret had alwayswanted to go to London, and
she had done so in order tofulfill a lifelong dream. They provided letters

(19:03):
which were apparently written by Margaret,addressed from London, stating that she was
staying at some particular hotel. However, Edward and Avril were not that clever.
Police found that there was evidence thatthey were both in London at the
exact same address on the same dateas the letters. So go figure Margaret's
former teacher testified that there was absolutelyno way Margaret could have actually have written

(19:26):
those letters to begin with. Youknow, she had a moderate learning disk.
She wasn't that intellectual. Unfortunately,she didn't have that ability to write
in that way. So yeah,go figure who actually put pen to paper
there with those letters. So duringthe investigation, both Edward and Linda were
interviewed by BBC Look this up onYouTube. The interviewer exclaimed how the two

(19:49):
were living in Squalor. In quotes, the floorboards creaked, plaster was coming
off the ceiling, and in theback room there was a huge hole in
the house with only ter in betweenthe garden and the interior. I can't
imagine how cold winter must have beenclose quotes. You can see pictures of
this online and it's literally the wholeback of the house. There is no

(20:11):
wall. It just you can justwalk into the garden. It's the strangest
thing I've ever seen. They wantedan open concept, They've got it,
they really got it, and thehouse is just, I mean, it's
something else. It's it's really gross. It's really really gross. I don't
understand how anyone could live there.I mean I'm like, come on,

(20:32):
because you could build a wall.You could definitely build a wall. For
one hundred and two thousand, Ithink, yeah, I'll send the couple
all over to you guys. Ifyou want to build a wall, I
can have a couple that want tobuild a couple America. A lot of
jokes with that sentence. Lots ofwalls to be built. So the interview

(20:53):
was bizarre, to say the least, with Avril and Edward both exclaimed how
they were disgusted at how they hadtreated since the investigation commenced, and even
went on to state that Linda wasnow working as a gangmaster in Poland.
I mean, it's like the weirdestI think when they said that, the
interviewer was just like, what inthe world are you talking about? I

(21:18):
mean, at least make it sound, you know, maybe that she's a
chambermaid or she's working at a hotelas a housekeeper, but she's never realistic
Poland. You know, she's reallygone for it, Like and this is
a lady who couldn't even put pento paper. So I mean, she's
really she's moved up in the world. Blessing, so very very strange.
This was a lady who required twocares daily to support her living needs.

(21:41):
How in the world could she haveeven gotten to Poland never mind, you
know, set this gangmaster business upor whatever you want to call it.
Neither Edward or Avril showed any worryor upset regarding the disappearance of Margarette.
They just looked like they're more concernedabout themselves, really, Avril did in
the interview, she looked quite scared, arid actually to say anything. It

(22:02):
seemed like Edward was running the show. He was the man in charge and
was definitely the voice for the two. But as I said, appeared far
more concerned for himself really than anyoneelse. So police continued with their investigations,
and finally, in October twenty seventeen, eighteen years after Margaret had last
been seen alive, her careers werearrested. During the trial, the court

(22:23):
heard Margaret was in quotes, friendlessand lonely close quotes, she was a
young woman who had significant difficulties followingthe death of her father, and because
those closest to her didn't want her, Margaret went to live at Edward and
Avril's home. The murder trial wastold it was quote tempting for the couple
to have the money, but notthe inconvenience, of course, of actually

(22:45):
looking after her. So despite tothis day, Margaret's remains have never been
found. They've never found anything.I'm glad to report that bout Edward and
Avril were sentenced at the High Courtin Glasgow by the judge Lord Matthews after
being fould guilty of murdering Margaret.So I think this is quite interesting though,
because usually you need a body,yeah, but there's no body,

(23:11):
so in theory, you know,she's technically not been murdered because they didn't
prove that reasonable doubt that actually yeah, I mean, so there was no
forensic evidence like blood or anything,and that maybe that's why the wall was
missing. Is the blooded slatted onthe wall, so they took the whole

(23:32):
wall. But yeah, how interestingthat there is no forensic there was no
physical evidence whatsoever. So April thatwas the woman who was supposedly supposed to
be taken care of her. Shewas convicted of fraudulently claiming one hundred and
eighty two thousand and benefit by pretendingMargaret, who would now have been thirty

(23:52):
eight years old, was alive Thecouple were both convicted of perverting the course
of justice as well. The judgesentenced the couple to life in prison month
so, which is mandatory for murderin this country, which both ordered to
spend fourteen years behind bars before they'reable to apply for parole. In my
opinion, I don't really think fourteenyears is a very long time, especially
you know, his good behavior andall that kind of stuff. Fourteen years

(24:18):
or a life. As I say, if there it's life in prison,
why can they get parole after fourteenyears? Yeah, how is that life?
Yeah, that's not life in mybook, No, it's crazy.
It's it's quite an amazing case.So, as I've said, Margaret's body
never been found, which is it'squite sad actually, and they never confess,
they never gave any indication or theywere stick into their story. They

(24:41):
are sticking to it. Yeah,I mean you think they do. And
it's it's obvious. It's obvious thatthat's what they've done. They've done something
with her body. Where is itthe house itself, so when you go
out through that, you know sideof the house, which has no wall,

(25:02):
it basically leads onto kind of likea canal stream river kind of a
thing, but probably you know whereshe ended up. I would imagine did
they dig or do is there anyrecord that they search for the body?
They dug up the garden and nothing, there's nothing there, so yeah,

(25:22):
it's a bit of a mystery.I think the house has actually been either
knocked down now or there's plans forto be knocked down and for new houses
to actually be you know, builton top, because it's just to put
it plainly, it's just a fuckingshit hole, like it's it's disgusting.
It's really disgusting. I feel reallybad for the neighbors actually because there is

(25:42):
like a couple of rows of housesand it's just like it's just gross.
It's really assuming there's no homeowners associationlike we have here that would find you
and you can't have a dilapidated ifthey have a glaring hole in their kind
direction. There is actually there's there'skind of like you have like a counsel,

(26:06):
which basically they do a lot ofstuff, like you pay the council
for your bins for your refuse,but you also pay like council tax you
you know, if you have anissue with a neighbor. You can speak
to them about them, kind ofresolving it. But I don't know whether
you know whether the neighbors ever kindof went down that route or you know,

(26:29):
God knows what kind of neighbors theywere like to have any with.
They were probably just trouble. Imean, he he is the most narcissistic
person ever. You should have heardhim in court, Like it was just
embarrassing like he was it was liketalking back to the judge like effing and
black, like being really like reallyinappropriate and just like really narcissistic. Like
you could tell he just thought,you know, I'm getting away with this

(26:53):
like that's it's just so obvious.Just a nasty individual really. And she
she's just strange. I think Ikind of think she might have a little
bit of learning this or you know, kind of on the spectrum a little
bit herself. She she seems quitevulnerable herself. And I almost feel like,

(27:15):
and it's not to excuse her behavior, but I do kind of feel
like she just followed him with things. He was very, very controlling,
and she did what he said reallywell. I mean to this day as
well, I don't actually know whetherthey are like a couple or not.
There's like there's a bit of aquestion mark over that whether you know whether

(27:37):
they're like romantically involved. Not thatI want to think about it, because
if you saw me, you wouldn'twant to. I do not need that
visual in my head. That issad. What I find sad about that
is people could take advantage and dowith this with these people did, and

(27:57):
that is sad. These visuals alreadyhave had a rough life, absolutely,
and they're so vulnerable, and it'slike who's looking out for them? And
especially over here, I mean Idon't. I mean obviously I know some
things about you know, Canadian Americanhealth systems and all of that, but
over here in the UK, Imean the social services and the health system,

(28:22):
they're just not being funded. Sopeople are getting lost and lost and
just being ignored basically, And thisis what happens. I mean, this
is an extreme example, but ifit was the one we know about,
there's probably more that we don't knowabout. If it took seventeen years for
somebody to notice, yeah, what'sgoing to come out in another ten crazy?

(28:45):
Absolutely, And I mean I seeit like because I work as a
nurse myself and I've come across somany vulnerable people who and you can see
family members around them who are takingadvantage. You see it all the time
and family members. Yeah, Harrysays she needs a drink. Yeah,

(29:07):
it's so it's awful. At myjob, I had we had to call
social services on somebody just this week. Somebody was scared to go home.
Oh, only person who was scaredto go back to where she was living.
That's so sad. And like weget a lot of training at the
hospital on how to recognize you abuse, yeah, human trafficking and things like

(29:29):
that. So if people are tooscared to say something to you, you
know who to call. Yeah,and seeing sorry JT. I'm a Costa
advocate, so that's a court appointedchild advocate, So I speak for the
children and I just have one caseand it's my responsibility to speak on her
behalf to the courts. So Ihad to go through all the training to

(29:52):
learn how to interpret things that shesays or actions because they are scared to
tell when they're that situation. Whowants to trust the courts? Absolutely?
Yeah, So sad I go onthat note, I'm glad they're spending fourteen
years and I hope in prison therelike in the US, that they're dropping

(30:15):
the soap often. Actually, he'sin a wheelchair now, so I don't
know what's going on there. Hemight be able to pick up that soap,
but his own shower, because Idon't think wheelchair. And I hope
they're not bathing him. I hopehe doesn't have a chair. Rusty poetic

(30:40):
Justice too gross disabled how he himselfis disabled. I got to hear Genevieve.
She's said not to be too gross, so I want to hear not
to be too gross. But heis at waist level. Oh, I'm
just saying dropping the soap, don'tdrop it. They don't have to drop
anything. I think, yeah,okay, so on that. No,

(31:08):
dude's next. Now I need adrink. I think, Oh, I'm
nice. So I'm gonna during mycomputer. I don't know what view of
my face you're gonna get, butI need to be able to read.
We can talk into the microphone.Is this loud enough? Yes? You
sound good on my end? Allright? So I have a case that

(31:32):
is also close to home, andyou are I'm Caitlyn, sorry from E
crime. I forget because we cansee each other. I forget that no
one else is seeing this unless wedecide to release the video. All right,
So I have a case that comesfrom Farmville, Virginia, which is

(31:56):
a place very close to us,and I have been many times. This
is the case of Richard Alden,Samuel Mulcrosky the third, also known as
Psycho Sam or my favorite little demondog, Little demon dog. And I
would like you guys to know howthis is spelled. So it's a capital

(32:19):
L, a lowercase I, acapital L, a lowercase D, and
it goes like that. So everyother letter is capital little demon dog,
all one word. That's how thecool kids do it. That's how the
cool kids like l Wayne, Thanks, Jerry good. JT is out of

(32:43):
control. I can't help himself.So this dance on JT. No flirting.
Oh this happened in just sorry?Is his life there or y'all say
she's with the kids at my inlaw. Okay, you're on video.

(33:04):
We can see everything you're doing.I have the phone here, we can
call nine one one. I havehis address. You're safe, boyfriend,
So I would there would be alot of trouble for JT conversation. Okay,
let's go all right. So intwo thousand and nine, A Little

(33:24):
Demon Dog was twenty years old.He was a graphic designer and an amateur
horrorcore rapper, which is where hisrap names Psycho Sam and a Little Demon
Dog come from. Let's pause fora moment, yes, and clarify what
horrorcore is. It's like, uh, you know, the insane clown posse.
Okay, rap and heavy heavy musicwith intense themes, very violent themes.

(33:52):
Yes, okay. In case youthought Little Demon Dog was a country
singer, right, you know,I was comparing named to Tim McCraw in
my head. Thanks for clarifying.We're welcome. Oh no, my Garrett
broke. Now I can't strangle youvery well, it's not as good.

(34:12):
So he lived in Castro Valley,California, with his parents and sister and
was dating a sixteen year old Virginiagirl named Emma Niederbrock. This twenty year
old man was dating a sixteen yearold girl on Montdown, you wors just
the best. I want to say, Hi, I'm Rick Hanson And what

(34:32):
were you planning on doing tonight withthe little girl? So McCroskey bounced around
a couple of different high schools,but he ultimately dropped out and in April
of two thousand and nine, hisparents asked him to move out. He
was pretty upset about this, butin September he had plans to meet up
with his girlfriend, Emma and herfriend Melanie Wells at the Strictly for the

(34:54):
Wicked Festival in Michigan, which wasa horrorcore music festival. Her parents drove
her to Michigan, and after theyreturned to Virginia, McCroskey became angry with
Emma because he had seen some textson her phone and he thought that their
relationship was exclusive, but these textsmade him feel like maybe Emma didn't feel

(35:17):
the same. They didn't go intodetail about what the texts were, but
you know, he started feeling sortof jealous, I guess, and upset
with her, and instead of justhaving a normal conversation, he on September
fourteenth, two thousand and nine,drank some beer, smoked some pot,

(35:38):
took some painkillers, and bludgeoned Emma, her friend Melanie, and Emma's mother,
Deborah Kelly to death. Why didn'tsee that coming? Yeah. He
decided to use an eight pound woodsplitting mall and he killed Emma last I

(35:58):
think they said that her friend Melaniewas asleep on the couch and then he
went and killed her mother and thenEmma. Then he decided to just hang
out in the house for three daysand sleep around their dead bodies. And
then Emma's father, Mark came homeand was surprised by them all and was

(36:22):
also blunted to death by mccrosskey.So I just have to ask real quick.
Did her parents know she was datinga twenty year old and they were
okay with it? I'm not sureif they were okay with it, but
they did drive her to Michigan togo to this music festival with the twenty
year old man. Okay, justthat ask here's your sign? So you

(36:46):
let a sixteen year old go toa music festival though, right? My
mom didn't let me go anywhere alonewhen I was sixteen. My mom doesn't
really let me go anywhere alone now, and especially not to that type of
festival. I mean, if youwanted to go to a food festival or

(37:07):
an arts and craft festival. Butoh no, horror cor I couldn't say
horror core because it kept coming outof horrorcor can you imagine telling your friends,
I'm going to a horror core thingand who are you going with?
A little demon dog? You knowwhat? Sixteen year olds would think that

(37:29):
was cool? Yeah, I meanthink about it, that's like, oh
wow, yeah, that's cool starlike, you know, a little demon
dog. Can I get an autograph? Can I get some demon? Was
he famous though? Like that amateur? So I mean obviously he wasn't rapping
at the festival, So how goodcould he have been? How how small

(37:53):
was this Farmville? Like is thatan actual name? Well, there's a
college in it and that's about it. That's about it. One of those
towns from the Sims. Yeah,that kind of Farmville. Well, you
know, we're very um, we'reoriginal in the US. So Farmville has

(38:14):
farms and it's yeah yeah, yeah. You wouldn't find a lot of horror
core in Farmville. There is acollege, two restaurants, a movie theater,
and a tattoo place. That's Farmville. That's that's that's pretty that's that's

(38:35):
pretty racy for Farmville. That's allyou need rights, not even a grocery
store. Just straight to the townfor that. So after he killed the
entire family and Emma's friend. Hemoved all of the bodies into Emma's room
where Emma was killed and she waslaying for the whole three day situation,

(38:58):
and then he attempted to clean upthe den where the crime scene was.
McCroskey then stole Emma's dad, Mark'scar, and after several days, he
was eventually arrested at the Richmond InternationalAirport where he was found sleeping in the
baggage claim twenty minutes away from wherewe are recording right this very moment.

(39:20):
Well, I just have to sayI gave it a goog just to see
a little demon dog was like popularm Yeah, he was the promoter of
serial Killing records, says So,says Google. So he was an amateur
bit he actually had a record deal. Yeah, and he think that all

(39:44):
the way by murdering people, youhad a future that as the ultimate horrorcor
well, you know, and wehave stories of you know, dark black
metal where they they've murdered bandmates orthey've put their bandmate who's committed suicide on
the front album cover thinking that itmakes I'm like, it gives them street
credit. Yeah, And so Iwonder if there was a bit of that
here on top of the emotions.It's just like, how do you not

(40:06):
expect somebody to you when you've donethese things? Like you can't just go
to a life of prominence after this. I've heard of like one of these
artists or bands kind of like thisthat have actually had in some case where
a murder was actually committed on stageat a concert and everybody just thought that
it was part of the show.But somebody actually right on the good thing

(40:31):
I just found it says these guysare bona fide Satanists who baptize each other
and ritually curse their enemies. Theirwraps are death prayer chants. Oh my
gosh, okay, it's a littledemon. Dog was a deep woman who
tried to convince everyone that monster wasactually the devil's drink. Have you seen

(40:52):
that video? She's like, lookat these stripes. Yes, let's just
say that I'm not going to beadding that playlist to my Spotify account anytime
soon. I agree. So whathappened a little damon dogg? So he
actually recorded a video at the houseafter he had murdered everyone. He was
like, I have to pay forwhat I've done. I think I might

(41:14):
kill myself. But then he decidedto leave and catch a flight back to
California, but before he got onthe plane, they arrested him. And
this is the sad part. SoMelanie, Emma's friend had called the police
and said, Hey, haven't heardfrom my daughter. I don't know what's
happening. I called the house acouple times. This boy answered, and

(41:36):
he's given me a different story everytime I call. So the police go
over. They knock on the door. McCroskey answers, and he's like hey,
and they're like, hey, we'rejust checking up. Where's Melanie?
And he goes at the movies andthen the police go okay and they leave.
Of course, so that last callsthe police again and says, hey,

(41:57):
still haven't heard from my daughter.That was a really long movie.
And so they go back again andthen they find the bodies, and then
they go to the airport and theyfind him at the airport. So they
obviously bring him to the court wherehe is sentenced to life in prison,

(42:19):
and he is currently serving time inthe Red Onion State Penitentiary High security.
It is high security. Red Onionis one of the highest security high security.
I would not get to y'all.Do they not have the death penalty?
Because I'm sorry, you killed thatmany people and you hang out with
him for a couple of days andyour name is Little Demon Dog. Is
there not any let's kill this dudeVirginia? So if he did send some

(42:45):
mental health before they locked him up. But this prison is in the middle
of nowhere, Like if you thoughtFarmville was nowhere, this prison is in
v middle of nowhere, in aplace called wise Wise County. Yeah,
it has a very the I keeptrying to say what I'm trying to say,

(43:07):
and I keep doing a terrible dropof it. It has like one
of the highest level of securities,and I think that's where um shoot.
So with him being in that prison, do you think he's like a big
wig there because of the type ofrapper he was, or do you think

(43:28):
maybe he's getting take an advantage upwhen he drops the soap if he doesn't
look very intimidating. No, Like, I don't know if you found a
picture when you google a Little DemonDog. But he's not the toughest looking
individual. Now. He looks helooks like he could crumble like a piece
of paper. I think he lookswhimpy in a red onion state. I

(43:50):
think they're probably beating him up good. But Kelly, who was Emma's mom,
was actually a professor Atwood College,which is the college in Farmville,
and that is a place that Ithink all of us have been multiple times.
And they had to call the schooland send out emails and tell everyone,

(44:10):
hey, like this tragedy happened.Some people that knew Emma obviously were
upset, and they had to tellthe people in her class that your professor
is now gone bad. Well,I don't understand is if the police went
to the house, could they notlike smell the bodies if it was a

(44:31):
couple of days later, So yeah, I don't know. I don't think
after three days you'd smell a body. Though one time a year was it
went to the door and whether like, where's Melanie. He was like at
the movies and they were like okay, And if he had moved all the
bodies to a singular room, excellentpolicing though, right. And he also

(44:53):
called Melanie's mom and was like,I'm hearing voices in the basement and her
mom I was like, maybe youshould call the police. But I'm thinking,
if you send the police to checkon the whereabouts of a child,
teenager whatever, Okay, what movieis she at? Who did she go

(45:13):
with? What time is she cominghome? And wouldn't you go to the
movie theater to check follow up?Yeah? Like, I mean what kind
of welfare check is that? Yeah, well we all remember the welfare checking
home alone. He walked up thefront door, knocked on the door,
there was no response, and thenhe left. Everything is okay. If

(45:34):
there's no screaming coming from the house, everything is okay. I think as
police officers need to go back topolice school, They need to go back
to a lot of different schools.Just saying world policing for you. Yeah,
that was quite a case. Thatwas now Kira uncle so news.

(46:05):
So last week I covered the murderof I'm Carra by the way from Murder
and you are sorry, I justjumped into my script. So yeah,
hi guys, Carra from Murder andmore So. Last week I covered the
murder of Melanie Hall and the disappearanceof Susie Lampley. Both Melanie's killer or

(46:30):
Susie and probably her body have everbeen found. Melanie's murder has been linked
to a case that happened in thenineties that also has never been solved,
known as the Batman Rapist. Idon't have tons of information on this case,
which is Matt why I chose itfor this episode. So the Batman
Rapist got his name from leaving abaseball cap with a Batman logo on at

(46:53):
one of the crime scenes. Andhe's believed to have attacked about seventeen women
in bath which is about half anhour from where I live, although they
think them maybe more victims who haven'tcome forward. Um, he had a
very specific emo, and he's believedto have named Bath Wow with all of

(47:14):
all but one of his attacks takenplace in Bath U and one I'm taking
place in Kingswood, which is nearBristol, just outside of Bath. He
usually see them laugh. We can'thear them, but we can see them
laughing. It's kind of distracting,can you see JT Oh, my god,

(47:38):
now I see why we're laughing.Rachel, maybe is the Batman Rapist
too? Maybe? My apologies forthe interruption here. You're talking about someone
called the Batman Rapist and his firstthought is I should put on my man

(48:00):
mask. Yeah, well, earlierhe was Batman when we started. So
that's great Blooper Reels comment. SoKaitlyn, you guys don't know Kaitlyn Amy.
But like in the beginning of thegroup, everybody's trying to figure out
who would be the serial killer outof the group, and everybody decided that

(48:22):
not only was I the flirt,but I was also the serial killer too.
And I don't have the body fluhere. Yes, thank you for
saying that, as we are nowin your alone in your house. Okay,
so I have to hear more aboutthat. I have never heard of
that rapist. Neither would I.Um where was I? So? He

(48:45):
usually operated in the winter months,targeting women who would turn to their car
between the times of six pm toeight pm and then one am to three
am. He would abduct these womenat knife point and instruct them to drive
to a secluded area where he wouldrape them. Once the attack was over,
he would then force these women todrive back to the area that he'd

(49:06):
taken them from. Another very specificact he did was to remove their underwear,
but ensure that they put their tightsback on once the attack was over,
and one woman he attacked wasn't wearingtights, so he made her put
someone that he'd bought with him.So he clearly had a bit of a
fetish with tights, each to theirown. I like it. So they

(49:30):
compiled a profile of the suspect.They said he's a white male, slim
or medium build, between the agesof thirty and fifty and roughly life at
nine. I don't know how theygot estimated as hype. So the attack

(49:53):
started in nineteen ninety one, specificallythe twenty first of May, when a
third six year old woman was abductedwhilst trying to park her car, and
as far as I can tell,how they stopped in sort of two thousand,
so it's pretty much twenty years sincehis last known attack, although it's

(50:15):
unclear if the attacks stopped or whetherhe died or moved to another area,
and the cases haven't been linked.I don't know. So there was periods
of inactivity between the attacks, sothey stopped between October ninety one and November
ninety four, where one attack tookplace, and then they stopped again until

(50:37):
June nineteen ninety six. So speculationsuggests that these periods where no attacks took
place, he may have been inprison or out of the area for work
such has been in the armed forces, or that the attacks only took place
when he wasn't in a relationship.So obviously I said at the start that

(50:59):
this is linked to Melanie Hall's murder, and that's because he was active around
the time of her disappearance. Heactually was active on the night Melanie disappeared,
so he is known to have attemptedto abduct a woman at NiFe point
in the same area of Bath thatMelanie was in, just hours before she

(51:20):
disappeared. The victim left the attackwounded, but she was able to fight
back and escape the much worse fate. I don't know how much I believe
that he would go from rape tomurder within the space of a couple of
hours. I know most people tendto escalate in their levels of violence over

(51:46):
time, but then I can't rememberwhen. But a crime Watch appeal was
out and on the night that thataired, he raped two more women,
So understand why he would go fromrape to murder back to rape. So
I don't know. I'm not ahundred cent sure, but I believe he's

(52:07):
involved in Melani's murder. But it'sa theory. Um. I have you
a question? Just so mad withhimself that he had done that that he
killed her and then he realized thathe didn't want to do that again.
Maybe that's a good point. Howum, how was Melanie killed? Can

(52:30):
anybody think I can't remember that episode? You know it was something exceptionally violent
or you know, like a crimeof passion sort of thing for my knife
because he like, you know,I'm just reading the script. Sorry,
I've forgotten already. I'm wondering sinceyou said he was active at sometimes and

(52:52):
went dormant and came back, sincehe's caught the Batman rapist, was there
any correlation to when Batman movie cameout in publicity for the Batman movies,
because I'm thinking if he had aBatman hat, had a new movie come
out, whether George Clooney was Batmanor whether it was one of the others,

(53:12):
was that around the same time?Very interesting. I haven't seen anything
about that, so I couldn't tellyou. J G. Do you know
when the Batman movies came out?I don't. I don't. I know
that most of those George Clooney movieswould make me want to murder somebody,
But you know, I just wonderedif that's why he had a Batman hat,
because you know, it was popularat the time. Yeah, I

(53:34):
mean, now that's a great question. Actually, I had never heard of
him before. I'm interested to doa little bit more digging on him.
Yeah, that's fascinating to me.Why he would go rape murder back to
rape unless it wasn't he did.He was like, well, everybody else
goes this way, and then he'slike, man, huh no, I'm

(53:54):
good with one over the other.Maybe that murder was a necessity. Yeah,
got any thoughts on that? Sabrinawith your black cat, I know,
and she keeps trying to walk overthe keyboard. I'm like, Rachel,

(54:20):
did you have anything in terms of, like, uh, any knowledge
of going from one extreme or alesser extreme to an extreme and back.
M I found that really odd,to be honest, you too, I
find that really odd. Um.I mean, as you've said, though,
I mean, maybe maybe it wasa mistake as such, you know,

(54:43):
we went too far and then herealized, actually, that doesn't really
do it for me. Yeah,maybe it was too messy. Yeah,
yeah, I know. With Melanie, she suffered blunt force trauma to the
head. They couldn't find out whatexactly killed her, and then her remains
were found. Maybe situation itself.He had to for whatever reason, but

(55:07):
that was a necessity for me anaccident. You know. He was like
being really rough with her and sheended up hitting her head or something.
Yeah, but it kind of seemsit kind of seems like he didn't get
what he wanted to get out ofmurdering somebody. Maybe it was just the
right kind of a lot of peoplewill well, not a lot of people,
but a lot of like, ummaybe knows a lot of murder a

(55:29):
lot of bad people. Um likethe idea of leaving somebody to have to
live with it. Yeah, it'seven more sick, it isn't it.
So Kura, They never found theBatman rapists, Is that correct? No?
So let give much they have anyDNA from him because if some things

(55:49):
we should Yeah. So they dohave a DNA profile from one of the
crime scenes and he can play.It's more than two thousand DNA profiles,
but unfortunately they've never been able tofind a match. It's the Britain's longest
running serial rape investigation and there havereally been no leads and like I said,

(56:15):
the last attack is two thousand,So I wonder if they've put it
up on one of those geology siteslike they found the Golden State Killer,
like my profiles out there. Ithink, I mean, I really hope
the police have put it up there. The difference, yeah, but the
laws are different in different areas,like in Canada, they there's due to

(56:36):
different privacy laws. There's they're reallynot able to do that here at that
point. So over here, right, do you know? I don't actually
know. That would be interesting thoughto find that. Yeah, definitely.
And then every investigation is about atleast one hundred thousand dollars, so depending

(56:57):
on the budgets of the different departments, they might not be able to afford
to send off their DNA maybe asfrequently as as somebody else, especially for
gd match, because the sequencing isa little bit different. But I mean
that you said they tested two thousandpeople, so they're spending money testing.
Yeah, I don't know how,but I didn't hear that. Well,

(57:23):
it might not be that he's notactive. He just might be in a
different different country, different areas,or changed his mL or is dead.
And if I think they have isthe Batman a hat, then it's probably
really hard to link him to somethingelse. M I think that was only
left at one crime scene as well. So well, that's one of those

(57:45):
things where like the public and themedia hold on to one thing and they're
like, oh, well, he'sthe Batman rape business pally, we have
a hat And why did we givethem those names? I mean why because
it's much easier to digest a namelike that than all the specifics of the
actual murder. And it helps usto me, this is my idea,

(58:06):
this is my layman's idea. Ithelps us process that person and the decisions
they made without making them like ahuman. I don't know. That's a
good point in my head. Itmakes sense. Don't you regret putting on
that Batman mask now? Because nowI am always going to think rapists and

(58:27):
JT. I don't want to clarifythat it was not a Batman hat,
it was a mask. It wasjust so handy. He just pulled it
out of behind the lamp over here, pulled it out of nowhere. We
do have your address, so weknow if these girls do not make it
at home. Thank you. Ah. They did a crossover with me last
weekend and they survived. It's fine. We were in a public library.

(58:53):
The key so kiat how many menor how many cases do they think he's
attached to? So would help afark? I thought you said seventeen or
something. I think that's what isit? Yees, So it's believed he
attacked seventeen women. But again,there maybe women who never came forward.

(59:14):
I know, even now people don'tlike coming forward and talking about rape because
people won't believe them. And Ican't imagine how that was sort of in
the late nineties, early two thousands, I assume it would have been even
worse to talk about rape. Yeah, I admit that you've been raped,
So I imagine there's probably a lotmore people out there who were raped and

(59:35):
just never came forward. And maybethe periods of inactivity weren't inactivity at all,
and those victims just haven't come forward. Yeah, this is one of
those cases that really makes it makesme really sad in terms of how long
it's taken to get as not veryfar we are in terms of talking about
these things, you know, likeI mean being gay, that that was

(59:58):
not even talked about until like thelate night indies and then aids as well.
And that's one of the things thatjust it espouses more and more of
these not not that, but thecrime is not being talked about. So
it's like, you know, that'sone of those cases that just really hits
hard. I know, and I'ma dude, right surprise, I'm a
guy. So yeah, but yeah, that's pretty much it. That's all

(01:00:27):
I have. How frustrating though,for like the detectives on the case,
like all of all of these raysand godens have more, and yeah,
they're not even close to finding onjust Oh that's the only way they're going
to catch him is if he getsarrested for something else and his DNAs put
into the database, right, Imean, so basically we need him to

(01:00:49):
do something and get arrested so wecan get arrested. Yeah, m oh
yeah, all right, I thinkAmy's next. Yes, what do you
think, I'm just doing a quickstretch. Okay, he stood up and
put her handsome heavy. Leave thatin. I haven't paid that in.

(01:01:12):
Sometimes I just need to need alittle strike. The thing we can see
JT while she was stretching. That'sright, look at JT just covered his
face. So I'm Amy I'm fromE Crime along with Caitlin. So the
case that I brought today, it'sactually kind of a a popular, not

(01:01:37):
popular, a well known case.In written, Virginia almost said where we
live, it's if you talk toanybody about something called the World of Mirth
murders, people pretty much know whatyou're talking about. Nodding his head yet,
Virginia, Yeah, okay, wedo, okay, we yeah.

(01:02:01):
The body of Triva Gray, whowas the wife of Ricky Gray, was
found on November fifth, two thousandand five, in Washington, Pennsylvania.
So actually this story starts a littlemore north than we are. So Triva
Gray and Ricky Gray were not knownaround town as a pleasant, quiet,

(01:02:22):
nice couple. Many reports of screaming, matches, and fighting were reported to
have taken place between the married couple, but police actually never investigated Ricky her
husband, for her death. Theinvestigation went cold almost immediately, and Treva's
mom You talked about how she reallythinks that the police just were pretty lacadaisical
about trying to figure out who killedher, and she felt like, because

(01:02:45):
of Treva's drug history, that maybethey just kind of chalked it up to
being an overdose and that was it. So during Christmas that same year.
In two thousand and five, RickyGray and his nephew Rayed Andridge, who
are both twenty eight years old,which was weird. They moved to Arlington,
Virginia, which is in northern Virginia, to live with their grandmother,

(01:03:07):
Ricky's grandmother and raise great grandmother.On New Year's Eve two thousand and five,
a man named Ryan Carrey was attackedand robbed outside of his parents' house
in Arlington. He was really badlybeaten and he was in a coma for
two weeks. When he woke up, he completely had lost all movement in

(01:03:28):
his right arm, so he wasreally badly beaten. When you talk about
the World of Mirth murders, whatusually comes into into your mind as the
Harvey family Dad, Brian, momCathy, and daughter Stella who was nine,
and Ruby, who was four,lived in Richmond, Virginia and owned
the World of Mirth Toy Story inCarrytown Toy Story Toy Store in Richmond in

(01:03:53):
Carrytown, which is kind of likea little like an area where the artsy
hipster with some higher scale restaurants,some lower but like boutique shops and there's
a movie theater. But this Worldof Mirth, which is actually really hard
to say, so don't judge me. Is I've been going there since I

(01:04:14):
was a very little kid. Igrew up around the area and it's really
kind of unique and it has alot of kind of funky stuff that you
wouldn't find in you know, likeWalmart or Toys r Us. It's very
like a lot of retro toys andthings like that. Yeah, so the
cool stuff, it is very coolstuff. Yeah, it's like have any

(01:04:36):
of you seen mister mcgorian's wander Emporium, that kid's movie? Wow, you've
had seen it? What are kids? So? On New Year's Day two
thousand and six, Brian's friend andbandmate he was in a like a two

(01:04:57):
man band from his college days,noticed that the Harvey family's house was on
fire and he called nine one one. When the paramedics arrived, they found
the bodies of all four Harvey familymembers tied up in the basement at their
home. Autopsies would show that Brianand Cathy died from blunt force trauma to
the head. Stella, who wasnine, was killed by blunt force trauma

(01:05:17):
as well as smoke inhalation, andRuby, who was four, was killed
by a punctured lung from stab woundstoward back. Two days later, a
husband and wife were robbed in theirhome by two mass men, but they
were able to avoid getting tied upby the men due to their cooperation by
just saying, you know, here, take my stuff, and because the
wife had a medical disability, soI think that kind of played into them

(01:05:40):
being able to get out mostly unscathed. Ricky Gray and ray Dandridge were close
friends with a woman named Ashley Baskervillewho lived with her parents in Richmond.
On January sixth, a neighbor andsomeone who had also housed Ricky and Ray
called the police because she was concernedthat the men had something to do with
the Harvey family murders, and theywere concerned for ashley safety because they kind

(01:06:03):
of were always all together. Uponinvestigation, Ashley and her parents were found
at their home, tied up anddeceased with cuts to their throats. Ashley
was actually found with it was reallyawful, a bag like a plastic bag
around her head and then several layersof duct tape around the bag. So
terrible, terrible way to die.Evidence from the Harvey murders was found at

(01:06:25):
the home that Ray and Ricky hadbeen staying at, and so a man
hunt ensued. The next day,January seventh, the men were picked up
by police at Ray's father's house.The two men both confessed to the Harvey
murders and the Baskerville murders Ashley andher parents, and the attacks on the
other victims, and as it turnedout, actually was actually an accomplice in
the Harvey family murder. She wasthere as a lookout or you know,

(01:06:48):
on the street in the car whilethey went in and committed the crimes,
and she to The plan between thethree of them was that Ray and Gray
and Dandridge would go into the houseand of Ashley's parents and pretend to rob
them, and Ashley was supposed toplay the victim, but Gray actually decided

(01:07:10):
that he was just sick of herand decided to kill her anyway. While
seemingly upset and apologetic about killing thetwo girls, like I said, Ricky,
Gray just mentioned that he killed Ashleyjust because he was sick of the
men went on trial in Richmond,Virginia. Ray Dandridge was charged with three
counts of murder as an accomplice tothe Harvey murders. At first, Dandridge
went into the case and pled notguilty, but then changed his plea to

(01:07:31):
guilty to avoid the death penalty.Ricky Gray was charged with several counts of
murder, including two counts of murderof children under fourteen years of age,
and he pled not guilty. Gray'sdefense team worked on convincing the jury that
the killings happened because of Ricky's abuseof childhood and that he was under the
influence of PCP during the murders,but the jury only took thirty minutes of

(01:07:55):
deliberation to find him guilty and hewas sentenced to death. Job right,
good job jury, Yeah thanks RichmondRay. Dandridge was sends to life in
prison without the possibility of parole andis currently incarcerated at the Keen Mountain Correctional
Center in Oakwood, Virginia. RickyGray, actually, you know, just
because he's an excellent fellow, decidedto go through all the levels of appeals,

(01:08:19):
tried to even appeal to the SupremeCourt to change his sentence, but
they wouldn't even listen to his case. I think if you hear they killed
a nine year old and a fouryear old little girl, then you're kind
of kind of out of luck.Yeah. So Ricky Gray was actually killed
by lethal injection on January eighteenth,twenty seventeen, so like three years ago.

(01:08:40):
And if you like I said,the Richmond people who have lived and
grown up in Richmond know about thiscase, and there's lots of memorials and
things like that in honor of theHarvey's. The store has been purchased by
somebody else and they've been running itand it seems to be doing pretty well.
And there's also like marathons. Andone of the little girls she went

(01:09:03):
to school around here and she theyhave like a memorial garden and stuff for
her. So, and they wereactually named two thousand and six is Richmonders
of the Year by Style Weekly,which is a magazine here in Richmond.
That is really really sad, veryheartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. I'm like,
I got nothing, I'm just heartbroken. Yeah. My wife grew up around

(01:09:25):
here and she has a hard timeeven walking into the world of Mirth Toy
Store just because it brings back allthe stuff that happened around that. You
know, that period of time.Yeah, she tends to take things pretty
hard, but at the same time, I totally get it. So,
yeah, it was a pretty roughtime for Richmond, specifically because they were
they were the World of Mirth waskind of a nice establishment here. Oh

(01:09:47):
yeah, and it's well known andpeople knew the Harvey family and they were,
you know, well known around Richmond. They had kids in the school
system and stuff, and it wasjust I think, knowing that it happened
in a busy neighborhood, you know, that's not I actually grew up in
the neighborhood. I my The firsthouse I lived in like twelve years was
like three blocks from where they werekilled. So I very familiar with the

(01:10:12):
area. And it would be Ididn't live there at the time. I'd
been moved out for like two years. But that's horrifying to think that something
that terrible can happen so close tohome. It is, and I have
to say consider, and I justdid the Michael Vick case not too long
ago. I'm think in Virginia,it's got a lot of bad people.
Just saying the Michael Vick those thedog fighting rings again happened like within a

(01:10:36):
mile radius of where I grew up. And another another case called the Southside
Strangler that I'll be covering later onthat happened in the eighties, I mean
blocks from where I grew up.Who knew. I didn't know that I
was in the danger zone growing upDenominator right, Yeah, And I wish

(01:11:00):
you should be worrying about her,Amy, and I wanted to do local
cases for this spectacular or whatever we'recalling it, and that's the official title,
yep. And we had trouble pickingsome because there are just so many
well known cases from Richmond and likeAmy, we never realized until we thought

(01:11:25):
of moving, and we were like, oh, look, because I was
going to do the DC Snipers becauseI was in elementary school when that happened,
and I remember we couldn't go outsideand and we had to be ushered
to the buses and everything. Soonce again, have you thought of moving?
Yeah? I mean, honestly thinkingabout this where I live now,

(01:11:46):
which is a much like more urbanarea. Somebody just died like three months
ago, was shot and kills.Urban people get murdered in front of her
house all the time. Yeah,you know, you're cursed, Amy.
I'm coming north to Canada. Yeah, I think murder still happens in Canada.

(01:12:06):
I think murder just happens, guys. It's kind of like shit happens.
Murder happens. Yeah, there aregoing to be jacked up people anywhere
you go. No, So,okay, who's next? I am?
And I'm just going to give adisclaimer. This is a brutal case,

(01:12:28):
very disturbing. I'm not going togo into all of the disturbing details.
This is Terry with true crime andwine time, and I'm going to tell
you about a case that Jess recentlyhappened over Christmas that broke my Heart's very
disturbing. I'm not going to getinto all of the crazy details. I'm
also going to try to focus moreon the victim than the person who did

(01:12:50):
it. JT's already looking. Heknows it's going to be uncomfortable for him.
Kevin Richard Bacon was born November twentyeight, nineteen ninety four, to
Carlin Pamela Bacon of Flint, Michigan. Kevin was like most twenty five year
olds today who have an online socialmedia presence in accounts and uses dating apps

(01:13:13):
to meet others. Kevin was atrained hire stylist and a very proud member
of the LGTBQ community who had planswith his family on Christmas Day twenty nineteen.
Sadly, Kevin never made his ChristmasDay events and his dad reported him
missing on December twenty fifth. Kevinhad hold his roommate Michelle Myers that he

(01:13:35):
was meeting with a man he meton grinder around five pm on Christmas Eve
and texad Myers a little after sixthat night, saying he would be out
for a while and he was havingfun. Little did Myers know that this
would be the last text she receivedfrom her close friend and roommate. Carl

(01:13:57):
Bacon, Kevin's father, met withpolice Christmas Day and found his son's car
in a parking lot with his cellphone and wallet inside Kevin's car keys,
where the only things police could determinewere missing from his car. The Bacon
family and friends organized a search partyand began looking for Kevin, but did
not have any luck finding his body. On Saturday, December twenty eighth,

(01:14:24):
the police went to the address ofseven oh three West Tyrrell Road in Bennington
Township, Michigan, the home ofMark Latinsky. The police at this time
have only told the public that theyreceived a tip that they should go to
a welfare check at this address.Mark Latinski was polite to the police when

(01:14:45):
they arrived and greented the axis tohis home and permission to search his house.
He was like, come on in, feel free to help yourself.
Upon searching the home, police founda naked body hanging from the ceiling and
the basement. The body was hangingfrom the ceiling bound at the ankles,
and it had been stabbed in theback. The throat had been cut and

(01:15:08):
the testicles had been removed. Ohmy gosh, I told you it was
bad. The body was identified ofthat of Kevin Bacon, aged twenty five,
who had been missing since Christmas Eve. When did they find him?
December twenty eighth. Okay, sojust a couple of days, right.

(01:15:30):
Police took the homeowner, Mark Latinskyinto custody and straight to the police station.
Latinsky immediately admitted to tying up,baking and to killing him. Latinsky
shocked the seasoned investigators when he toldthem he had also cooked and eaten Kevin
Bacon's testicles after killing him. Ohmy gosh, he openly everything I read.

(01:15:56):
He was like, yeah, soI did this and I ate his
balls. They did not know thisinformation until he shared it. They just
thought they were missing, and itmakes my stomach turn. Thankfully, it
appears at the time that Bacon wascastrated, he was already deceased when his
testicles were removed, so he didn'tsuffer through that. Still being stabbed in
the back and then having your throatslit as an awful way to die,

(01:16:20):
I mean, just beyond anything getsa little bit harder as details in this
case are coming to light. Ithas been reported that Mark Latinski was married
to Jamie Arnold, who had movedout of the home in September of twenty
nineteen as he and Latinsky separated.Lutinsky had previously been married to a woman,

(01:16:42):
Emily, and they had four childrentogether, which Latinsky had previously been
charged with kidnapping of those children,and at the time Lutinski was diagnosed with
major depression, paranoid schizophrenia, andtraits of a personality disorder. After Letinsky
sought professional help for his mental illnessand agreed to take medication, the charges

(01:17:03):
were dropped entirely. His new husbanddid not know of all of this.
Mark had joint cussidy of his fourchildren. However, Emily, his ex
wife, had gone back to courtrecently saying he was not taking his medication
and was acting erratic again. Arnoldand Lutinsky separated because he said Letinsky started

(01:17:29):
spiraling out of control and was havinga lot of issues after being fired from
his job, but swore he wasnever dangerous. Police said that Mark Letinsky
had been on their radar for severalmonths after two different men reported consensual bondage
sessions that went too far. Bothof the men did not went to file

(01:17:51):
charges and said they were just creepedout. Based on the nine one one
call on October tenth, twenty nineteenby one of the men, it is
presumed that Letinski had drugged the man, as he indicated he woke up in
the basement, chained up and wasable to use his knife to cut a
leather strap which was connected to ametal chain, and then he fled the

(01:18:14):
home. Then, about a monthlater, in November of twenty nineteen,
a month before Kevin was killed,another man fled the home wearing a leather
kilt and told the nine one operatorthat he escaped a home where he had
been chained up in the basement.So because these two men were scared for
their personal life to get out therea consensual bondage episode went too far,

(01:18:41):
they were scared to come out.If they had, Kevin maybe would still
be alive today. Awful, It'sawful. Another thing that gets me crazy.
Kevin Bacon's family has told the pressand the people in the community,
we want you to not focus onthe fact that our son had some dark

(01:19:02):
issues. Just focus on him beingmurdered. You do not shame the victim.
Consensual bondage guys, I'm not intoit. But if you are,
and you're consensual, and you havea safe word, everybody, do you
agreed? Do you parents? Sorry, I have a son that's gay.
Hope he's not doing that. Butif he is, he didn't ask to

(01:19:23):
be murdered. O. No,it's irrelevanble It's exactly so. Mark Letsinsky
has been charged with murder in mutilationof a body in connection with Kevin's murder.
The judge in the case ordered Letinskyto undergo psychiatric evaluation to determine his
mental fitness. They are currently doingthat over the next ninety days. Latinsky

(01:19:45):
has pled not guilty. Remember heconfessed his attorney is preparing an insanity offense,
which, based on everything's highly likely. I was gonna say that sounds
reasonable, pretty insane to me.Yeah, yeah, I would rather see
him go to the worst prison.On the day he arrived for his arrayment,

(01:20:09):
when he was asked if his namewas Mark Latinsky, he replied,
no, my name is Edgar ThomasHeel and Mark Latinsky is my nephew.
So I don't know if he's justsetting a stage seeing Worfi's truly Benny Boiler
crazy, as I like to say. They do have him back on his
medication, so we will see.I can only imagine that Kevin's family wants

(01:20:34):
him to go to the worst prisonand things done to him, So if
anyone is interested, the homework Kevinwas murdered has been put on the market
for sale after Security Federal Credit Unionforeclosed on the property in January of twenty
twenty. The property is due tobe auctioned off on February twenty six in

(01:20:54):
Shawassee County Circuit Court. It's fiveacres valued at ninety thousand dollars. Is
that what they're starting at for theauction? They haven't said that's just what
the it's valued at. So I'mhoping someone buys it, tears down the
house, and gets rid of it. That's what I'm kind of very fast

(01:21:16):
turnover. He was already in defaultfor not paying. Oh, I can
tell you. In Texas they wouldn'tallow that because what if during the trial
the people want, you know,the jury wants to go and visit the
scene. I don't know about Michigan. Apparently it's done. It's going up.
You can see hit and the auctionsite. Where in Michigan was this

(01:21:43):
around Flint? Oh? Yeah,well that's like a bankruptcity. It is,
And I think that's what it comesdown to. They need to do
it. Yeah. The one thingI would like to say, Kevin Bacon
was a colorful, vibrant person,says his best friends. He loved his
life, his cats, Smokey andFuzzy, and he had a dog named

(01:22:05):
Hannah, which just breaks my heart. And the other thing I would like
to say, if your friends areon any dating app, make sure they
give you the name of the person, the address where they're going. Because
back when I was around those agewhere you know, you things happen,
you want to hook up I madethe guys give me their driver's license for

(01:22:26):
my girlfriends before they could go homewith them from a club. Very smart.
Tell somebody where you're going, turnon a location thing on your phone.
People can find you. Do notshame a victim because they met up
with somebody on an app. Right, It's sad, and it just happened
Christmas Day. His family was waitingfor him to show up for breakfast at

(01:22:50):
nine am and he never showed up. Well, so sad. That's really
we were just I was just talkingwith this about this case with the girl
friend of mine the other day becauseshe's her kids are older than mine right
now, they're twenty three, Andit just hits home because you just view

(01:23:13):
view this as a parent. Ithink once you get to this stage,
it's just a completely different way thatyou can never ever fathom to view it.
It is, and with me havinga son who's gay, and I
know there was a time that Hannah'spartner of like seventeen years split up and
he was on those at and I'mthankful that he would always, even though
it was an uncomfortable conversation, hewould shoot me a text, Mom,

(01:23:36):
I'm meeting the person says, theirname is this, I'm meeting them here
because you don't know. Yeah,And I can't imagine as parents getting that
call and this information began released thepublic. I mean, that's one of
the parents to say, you know, to be open to that and being
like, you know, even ifI don't necessarily agree with what you're doing,

(01:23:59):
I want you to be safe aboveanything else. So exactly, always
come to me and let me knowwhat's going on. And the media sometimes
too, has a tendency to revictimizevictims. That's why you get a lot
of people who are assaulted that don'twant to come forward. Yeah, I
mean, and why shame him?So what it was Christmas Eve? He
was single, he was a youngviral man, so he wanted to go

(01:24:20):
meet up with somebody and they liketo do a little kink. Doesn't mean
he deserved to be killed, Saly. And so it just breaks my heart
and I'm in shock that that propertyis up for sale. This happened just
a couple of months ago. Howcan you put that property up I mean,

(01:24:41):
I know the town. I knewa lot about this case because the
corporate headquarters for my company is nearthat area, and so someone from the
office shared it with me and I'vejust been heartbroken. Sense that's all I
got and I need a drink afterthat because it just take a big speak
Terry. And I also want tosay all of the stuff on Twitter is
horrible. People making jokes about whetheror not the parts that were eaten tasted

(01:25:06):
like bacon. I'm just going tosay that's wrong. And Kevin Bacon,
the actor, even spoke out andsaid he was horrified by the puns people
were saying, I hope your caseisn't quite as dark. We are a
true crime group, right, Well, what we'll see. I mean I've

(01:25:27):
gloss over some stuff, so we'llwe'll get So this is Jene feve Germaine
from True Crime Real Time. Andbefore I get started, I just want
to give a big shout out toJohn Wells because typically I like to have,
you know, at least twenty differentsources when I'm doing this, but
as you all know, I justput this together last minute, so I

(01:25:48):
have two main sources. One asJohn Wells. He's a fantastic award winning
journalist who specializes in long form journalismwho actually works at the Hamilton's Spectator.
He's also got a couple of booksout, and then the other one is
from Lee Milor or Mellor, whichis an author of Cold North Killers,

(01:26:10):
focuses on Canadian killers. So thatbeing said, those were my two main
sources of information. But I'll havethat. I'll listen to it later,
so we'll try to do this.I thought long about how I wanted to
tell the story because there's a lotof different kind of moving parts, but
I'll start with this, so we'regoing to center around Pasquale. Pasquale was

(01:26:31):
often called Pat by his friends andfamily. He was the firstborn son of
Ruth and Flavio in the apple ofRuth's eye. She just adored him.
It was her firstborn son. Theywere really really close. Pat was twenty
six at the time, strong,burly. He was a father of to
a little girl from a previous relationship. He lived in the family home with

(01:26:53):
his parents and all his brothers andsisters. Living at home at twenty six
typically very normal or a European descentfamily, especially Portuguese Italian, they stay
at home until they get married.It's odd if they do move out.
In fact, it's discouraged. SoFlaviot started a renovation construction company was pretty

(01:27:15):
successful. All of his boys workfor him, so Pat obviously worked for
him. Was a talented worker.He'd won awards when he was younger for
woodworking, so in that respect,he was kind of artistic. They're very
close knit family. They did alot of family events together. The kids
would come and go out of thehouse, so it wasn't, you know,
super strict. They were in theirtwenties, so they would come and

(01:27:38):
go, but typically, out ofrespect for their parents, they'd be home
every night for sleeping. So ifthey went out to the club, if
they went out to the bar,if they went to go see their girlfriends,
they'd still come home at some pointduring the night and stay there and
they'd be woken up the next morningthey'd be at home. So it was
Saturday before Father's Day in the yeartwo thousand, Pat went to spend time
with his girlfriend, Charlisa and herthree year old blonde little boy, Eugene.

(01:28:01):
Eugene loved when Pat was around.He's always making him laugh. Pat
and Charlisa had known each other sincehigh school, but they only just started
dating for the last couple of months. At some point on Saturday, Pat
said goodbye. He left Charlisa andlittle Eugene and went to meet up with
a couple of his friends for afew drinks at a read midnight, they
decided to call it a night.I guess they were like, yeah,

(01:28:26):
forget it, and they dropped Patoff at his home. They had big
plans the next day for Father's Dayas a family, but shortly after he
got home, he got a callin his cell room from Charlisa, his
girlfriend, asking if he could comeover for a bit, and obviously he
wanted to, so he picked uphis dad's keys, took the white work
fan with them, drove the fifteenminutes to Charlisa's place, and they spent

(01:28:51):
some time together. His mom didnot want him to go. She just
she was like, it's too late. We got plans tomorrow. But she
didn't say anything to him because hisdad had previously kind of got mad at
her for doing that and said,listen, he's a grown man. Let
him do his thing. So shedidn't say anything, but you know,
she regretted it. She has regrettedit since that day to this day.

(01:29:15):
Charlie said, put Eugene to bed. He was feeling a bit sick.
He was looking forward to and shewas looking forward to seeing Pat for some
alone time. So when Ruth andFlavio got up the next morning, Pat
wasn't home. Ruth called Pat,no answer. She was constantly trying his
number, and each attempt to reachher son yielded the same results, no

(01:29:36):
answer. At around quarter to fiveon the eighteenth, so it was on
Father's Day, Flavio and Ruth weredriving on King Street East and noticed the
white construction van parked on the sidethe street. Flavio immediately called one of
his other sons and asked him tobring him the extra set of keys to
the van. He then opened theback doors. They weren't locked, but

(01:29:57):
the alarm went off. Nothing seemedunto with the van, so Flabio ended
up driving that van home at thattime, and his other son brought his
mom home in the other car.So not too long after this, a
blonde toddler wearing a very dirty diaperand a dirty T shirt was seen walking
down King Street East alone in hisbare feet. It had rained really hard

(01:30:20):
earlier, but it was drawing upat this point and was around twenty two
degrees celsius, which is sixty eightdegreased spahrenheit. After walking one hundred and
forty meters or just under four hundredand sixty feet, he entered a convenience
store. Their clerk was concerned.Here was this dirty little boy in bare
feet and he bout three years old, all alone. The boy was feeling

(01:30:44):
sick. He ended up vomiting onthe floor. The clerk called the police
to say there was a child herewith no parents, like, can you
come and check this out. ConstableCarter was on his way home from work.
It was father Day, so hehad arranged to actually leave work earlier
so that he could go spend timewith his family to celebrate Father's Day.
And on his way, he wasstill in his cruiser, he got a

(01:31:06):
call to say, Okay, youneed to go check out this found child.
It shouldn't take too long. Mostof the fine found child calls usually
don't end up badly. It doesn'ttake too long. They just reunite the
child with the parents. It couldbe that one of the kids get out
of the house without them seeing andwandered down the street. And that was
what typically happened with the types ofcalls that they got. And nine O

(01:31:27):
O the ten times so he figured, you know, it should take too
long. I should be hallly notime. That's what they told him.
Anyways, So when he stepped intothe variety store and he saw the little
boy, he said, his diaperlooked as though it was about to explode.
He had been in it for avery long time. The clerk told
Constable Carter that the boy had fommedit on the floor. So Constable Carter
thought, okay, let me pickhim up. We'll bring him outside,

(01:31:48):
get him some fresh air, probablybecause probably because the smell was pretty bad.
While he was out with the littleboy, two women approached him and
told him that they knew who thislittle boy was. His name was Eugene
and that he lived with his mom, Charlie set the apartment building down the

(01:32:09):
street. Constable Carter followed the twowomen with a little boy in his arms.
They ran around the back of thebuilding and the women pointed out which
apartment was Charlie's. So he climbedthe eight metal steps to the second floor
and knocked on the back door.No answer. He called out police again
and knocked again, still no answer. Growing aggravated, he knocked again.

(01:32:30):
By this time he's knocking really hardbecause he's just thinking, he's not thinking
that anything bad is going on.He's thinking these guys somehow aren't watching their
child. And he got out ofthe house, so he's knocked. He
like really pummels the door, andthe door kind of opened slightly, and
but something was blocking the door soit didn't open all the way. That's
when he got a really terrible feelinglike this is not good. The door

(01:32:54):
opened, it wasn't shut properly.So he turned around, talked to the
two women, asked them to takecare of Eugene temporarily. He needed to
be cleaned, fed, whatnot,and took their information. At the same
time, another tenant came out becauseobviously of all the noise and said,
hey, Charlie's keys are actually danglingfrom the front door. So he thought,

(01:33:17):
okay, not good, so hecalled for backup. It went around
to the front of the building,waited for backup to arrive, and then
when another officer got there, decidedto go into the apartment unit with him,
and that's when he called out forten three. So ten threes when
they're called when a police calls itfor ten three, that's for radio silence.
So that's to keep the channel clearin case they need to call for

(01:33:40):
additional backup. But it's also incase somebody's listening in like the perpetrator.
They don't want to give away theirinformation, so the channels to be kept
clear. It's on silence and lessabsolutely necessary. So he entered the messy
into shoveled apartment, muscles tents,ready to react, his gun at his
hand, at his hip to wherehis gun is. The front door opened

(01:34:03):
up to the living room. Afew paces down the hall was a small
bathroom to the left and a crossroom at a little boy's room. Toys
littered the floor, the bed closeto the closet, and the closet door
opened a little further down the hallwas the main bedroom. Blood spattered the
wall and the bed was saturated.He called for an ambulance, then corrected
himself, make that two ambulances.Flavio and Ruth still hadn't heard from Pat,

(01:34:27):
despite their Benny frank It calls.Flavio, his two sons, one
of his son's fiances, and thetwo friends that Pat hung out with the
night before all got in a carand headed towards the area where they had
found Pat. The construction truck orvan on King Street East, and when
they got there, they were verysurprised to see JT. What is the

(01:34:49):
going on? I didn't know thatsubject did it for you? Sorry?
But Caitlin sat up when JT wasunderneath her, so you know, he
was all finishing himself. So Iwas just finishing script. Oh okay,

(01:35:10):
well I didn't even but hard anymore. I have to say, my heart
is hurting for this kid and thestiper. I'm just yeah, it's he's
yea, I know it's really sad. And he said there's the more sad
part in here, but um,it's it's sad. He was so little,
right, and he was there atthe time. So anyway, so

(01:35:32):
the next day his dad went withhis entourage down to the area where the
van was and when they got there, it was just covered in yellow police
tape. There was a bunch ofuniforms and and uh out of uniform police
as well as a bunch of reporters. And he went to the police officer
and one of them told him whilewe there's a double murder. So they

(01:35:56):
were freaking out a bit about that, and Ruth was like pray and praying
and praying that it wasn't her son, but it did end up being her
son. Um, so they thoughtit was a murder, not like a
murder suicide right right off the bat, Yeah, right off the bat.
So Eugene had been cleaned up andfed placed in the care of social services.

(01:36:18):
What is JT doing now? Itwas terried? Sorry maybe now they're
making all these terrible jokes. Ohmy gosh. So just like, stand
up and show your whole body.So everybody, nobody, I think we're

(01:36:40):
just trying to find some lightheartedness andwhat's going on. Yeah, so you
After Eugene was cleaned up, hewas brought to the central station about four
hours after he was seen wandering onthe streets by himself, and they tried
to talk to him because they figuredhe's the only eyewitness to to the event

(01:37:01):
and that anything that happens in theinvestigation within the few hours are going to
be essential to the case. Eugenetold the officers that there was paint all
over Mamma's walls and that he waswith his shoes when things were happening.
He said he was sick that nightand that later Pat's fan was gone,

(01:37:23):
and then a man wrote it.The police officer asked Eugene if he woke
up, and he said yeah,and then he said, Mama's gone.
The officer asked, did you seeanyone hurt your mom or Pat? Eugene
said, Mom and Pat they aregone. Mom's sleeping, Pat sleeping.
The forensic unit started that evening first, just a walk through. Don't touch
anything because the bodies of Pat andCharlie that were still in that room.

(01:37:45):
So what they do is they'll generallydo a walk through first before the coroner
comes in and pronounces them dead,and then they set their forensic testing and
everything. So the forensic leads firstnote that the balcony door facing King Street
was open, and on the balconythere was an open person, a couch

(01:38:08):
and a pair of men's sandals.Beside the living room was the front door.
The front door was closed and thekey link lock dangling from the lock,
and then also their work keys inthe doorknob from the outside that we're
hanging. The door was soaked thesidelofts the door was closed at the time,

(01:38:29):
so that one it was the balconydoor, the sliding door that was
open. They walked past the bathroomon the left and across the bathroom was
Eugene's room. The overhead light wason and the table lamp was on.
Blood was noted on the left hallwaywall by the light switch and radiator.
The door to the main bedroom wasopen and blood was evident on the door

(01:38:49):
frame. Two bodies were discovered inthe room, that of a male and
a female. Both victims were nudeexcept for a pair of socks and a
watch worn by the mail. Themail was faced down on the bed and
the female was almost in a kneelingposition on the side of the bed with
her head and arms on the mattressand her ankles were crossed on the floor.

(01:39:09):
There was a one inch bruise.There was a one inch bruise on
her left elbow. Blood saturated thesheets and pillows, and cast off patterns
and splatter were all over the wallsand ceiling littered under the pile by the
way. The scene was so badthat were the first officers who attended thought
they were gunshot wounds because of thesplatter. Littered under a pile of clothing

(01:39:33):
was an aluminum baseball bat with onlyits handle visible at the time. Further
down from The room to the rightwas an art room. Charlisa was an
artist and it was full of paints, brushes, canvases, easels, and
she even had a little easel forEugene to use. And this because she's
an artist and uses paints. Thisis why Eugene described the area as having

(01:39:57):
paint over Mamma's walls. Further intothe kitchen, the rear door was ajar.
This is where Constable Carter had knockedon it and the chain lock was
still in place, so that's whatwas blocking the door from opening it.
Further, the crime scene was veryviolent, with high velocity spatter on the
walls and ceiling. The baseball bathad evidence of blood on the fat part

(01:40:17):
of the bat. A neighbor toldthe police that they had loaned Charlisa the
bat for protection, which she keptat the front door, so the murder
had used a weapon of opportunity.Anne had left it on scene. Additionally,
a shoeprint from the athletic shoe wasleft in a trail of blood.
The corner arrived to announce that thetwo victims were dead and they were removed

(01:40:39):
from the scene. Their autopsies werescheduled the following day, the forensic pathologists
completely the autopsy and confirmed that bothwere blooded to death, struck numerous times
over the head and face, withmultiple skull fractures, and brain hemorrhaging complete
with tramline bruising, which is causedby a cylindrical object. A palm print
was found on the handle of thebaseball bat, but no other frank or

(01:41:00):
prints were found. They brought inthe opp to do the like a laser
fingerprinting unit, and what they dois they have the laser goat with to
fiber optic cable. But they couldn'tfind any fingerprints. So Sue Charlie's mom
had a terrible feeling. That Sunday, she drove past her daughter's apartment she's

(01:41:21):
done a few times and slowed downon the side street, honked, waited
to see if somebody would come outon the balcony, which I've guessed she's
done before, But nobody came outat two in the morning on that Monday.
So the following day, her husbandwoke her up, told her get
a robe on and come downstairs,and there in the kitchen she was told
the terrible news. She was sodistraught she rander her sixteen year old son's

(01:41:45):
basement bedroom to wake him up screaming, your sister's dead. So a little
bit about Charlisa. Charlisa was anartist. She was just twenty four at
the time. One of her paintingsjust days before this happened, one of
her paintings was actually shown in oneof the Hamilton museums and her name was
in the newspaper as one of theartists. And she had gotten her name

(01:42:06):
out there. And she loved allarts and all kinds and she was looking
into doing some animation as work,so she was maybe going to go into
that area. She also volunteered withat risk kids and teens. She would
mentor them, teaching them art andcooking for them. So, you know,
she was a very young lady.She was a young mom. She
was out there, she was artisticand just in a new relationship, just

(01:42:30):
had a really good part in herlife. And her mom actually thought that
she was pregnant at the time.By that hasn't been comforted. So the
investigation was extremely lengthy. It wasexhaustive. They ruled out so many people,
and because there was no fourth entry, and just the way that the
murders were looked personal, so theythought The police originally thought that this is

(01:42:51):
somebody that knew these people, atleast one of them was a target,
and but they ruled everybody out intheir close circle. They rudult family,
they ruled up friends, they ruledout all of Charlie's ex boyfriends. The
palm print was promising, but atthe time only fingerprints were in the database,
no palm prints, so everything wason cards, and they had about

(01:43:13):
three thousand different palm print cards thatsomebody would have to manually check. And
by this time in the investigation,they had so many other cases coming in
that the resources were not no longeron that one case, right, because
at first everything's all out on theone case, So now they're spread out

(01:43:34):
a little bit more and they don'thave enough resources to really look at this.
So it took a very long timeto start through these and this guy
that was doing on the side ofhis own job basically can only do so
much at a time, so asyou can imagine, that took forever.
So the case remained open and unsolvedfor about eighteen months from the time that

(01:43:56):
the murders took place, and thenin August of two thousand and one,
thirty six year old part time prostituteJackie McClane was blunted to death and an
upstairs unit unit four of a knowncrack house over this bar. There was
semen found in the high part ofher vagina, meaning that she didn't have

(01:44:17):
sex get up and walk around likeshe was. Basically, they figured the
last person that had sex with heris her murderer because of that, so
leading the pathologist to determinant that whereshe was found was the place that she
had the sex act was done andalso was the murderer was her that person

(01:44:42):
She had been dragged up the stairs, so she was. There was blood
evidence down the stairs, and thenthere's blood evidence going up the stairs,
and then there was more blood upthe stairs where she was blunted to death.
The day following Jackie's murder, andman named Carl Hall checked himself into
an addiction rehab center home he meta fellow person from Atlantic Canada. By

(01:45:02):
the way, Carl's from the AtlanticCanada. He lived in Ontario, New
Brunswick. So he met this otherguy, Shane that's also from Atlantic Canada
that's also in rehab. So theyhit it off because they had something in
common. And one night Carl camein to talk to Shane and sat on

(01:45:24):
the edge of Shane's bed, saying, I did something horrible. So he
admitted, Now he got Carl isa crackhead, and he got some of
his stories a little bit mixed up. But he did say that he had
there was an a drug dealer thathe knew and that was giving a hard

(01:45:45):
time to his ex girlfriend who's themother of his daughter, and that needs
to be rectified. And he wasalso met that he wasn't allowed to see
his daughter on Father's Day because ofa restraining order. And so he said
that he killed these two people thathe went in and he wasn't the intention

(01:46:06):
to kill anybody, but he wentinto the apartment and at some point the
guy grabbed his arm and he gotscared because the guy was bigger than him,
so he beat him to death,and then when he was doing that,
the woman came in and so hebeat him. Eugene actually saw him
because he said he described him ashaving scary eyes. So Carl actually saw

(01:46:30):
Eugene, didn't didn't do anything withhim, but left him there with his
dead mom. And can I aska quick hat. I'm assuming Eugene got
out that back open door, thepatio door. Eugene, the front door
was shut with the chain I thinkright. The chain was off on the
front door. The chain was lockedon the back door. So what he

(01:46:51):
did Eugene actually let himself out throughthe front door, Okay, And he
had seen his mom locked the keythe house before, like the front door,
so that's why the keys were inthe lock. So he tried to
lock the door, didn't realize heactually needs to take the keys with them.
Yeah, that's heartbreaking. So anyways, he kind of convince us that

(01:47:13):
he's done this double murder and thatyou know, he's whatever about it.
So the next day, Shane's leavingfor the weekend and he's like, oh
see yah Monday. But he waslying he had no intentions of ever going
back. That scared the crap outof him because he doesn't know if he
that guy did any other murders orAnd then he was also afraid like he's
going to find out where I live, and you know, turns up because

(01:47:36):
Shane actually lived in Brantford. Soturns out Carl was actually arrested in Brantford.
And this main Shane like super nervousbecause he's found that out afterwards,
saying why did he come to BrantfordBecause he knew I lived there? Was
he trying to find me? Andso he actually Shane actually gave an anonymous
tip to the RCMP, and forthe longest time, the RCMP didn't want

(01:48:00):
to give that information to the Hamiltonthey gave the tip, they didn't want
to give the name of the personto the Hamilton PDUM. But the Hamilton
PD knew that if they didn't gethis name and his witness testimony that it
would be very difficult position because theywould say, well, how do we
know that tip? It could havebeen him that's saying it, and try
to pass it off on somebody else. So y'all tips not anonymous, they

(01:48:20):
are, but that went through theRCMP and not through crime stoppers. Okay,
yes, yeah, so um.Eventually they did find out who Shane
was and they ended up showing upat his door to do that. In
the meantime, Carl was actually inprison in Brantford because he is I don't

(01:48:45):
know what gets stuff wrong with them? He decides to mouth off an assault
police officer and assault whoever else sothey incarcerated him and the Hamilton police when
they found this, so they madeit a request to the judge to get
a DNA sample from him as arequirement. So that took a couple of
months. When they didn't get thatthe seamen, the DNA from the semen

(01:49:08):
and his DNA matched. So therewas other circumstantial evidence, witness testimony seeing
him at the bar with Jackie andsome other things. So he was arrested
and convicted a first degree murder forJackie's death, and then he also had
admitted to the deaths of Pat andCharlie Sa So they were able to finally

(01:49:33):
match his pump print with that thatof the pump print that was left on
the baseball bat. And they alsotracked down the previous tenant of that apartment
and whose name was Paul. Hewas a known drug dealer. Paul said
that he kneved Carl and that therewas a previous altercation between the two of
them. So this whole situation wasbasically Carl was high on crack cocaine and

(01:50:00):
he decided that I'm pissed off becauseI can't go see my daughter. As
you know, crack cocaine gives yousome really side effects of crack cocaine is
paranoia, aggression, anxiety, excessivelyexcessive aggressiveness. So he went out over
to that apartment, thinking it wasstill Paul's. He jumped up. He

(01:50:21):
was pretty muscular at the time.He jumped up, using like the lamp
post to get onto the balcony andgot himself into the apartment that way.
He went in to get some walletsand whatever else from the bedroom, and
that's when he said Pat grabbed hisarm, and he got scared because Pat
was bigger than him, and hehad he had grabbed the baseball bat from

(01:50:44):
the front door and started beating him, and then Charlisa had come in,
probably from the bathroom, and thenhurt everything, and then he beat both
of them to death. Then heleft. Coincidentally, he came back into
the apartment about three times trying towipe down evidence, so wipe down any
place that he would have put hisfingers forgot about the baseball bat though,

(01:51:06):
and then left that way, sothey had they did find it a heavy
impression in the soil outside the frontbalcony of a foot impression. He took
his shoes, he threw them indifferent like sewers and dumpsters. He took
the wallets and everything else that hetook from the place and threw it down
another sewer and then just was actingreal shady afterwards. There was obviously something

(01:51:29):
that he did. Even his exgirlfriend who he was with at the time,
said that he came home right awaythe next day trying to watch the
news, and he actually revisited thecrime scene the next day too, and
all the police were there. Sohe was charged with second degree homicide,
so second dream murder for the caseof pat And and Charlisa. Served consecutively,

(01:51:53):
so not concurrently, and he thetrial started. He had originally cleaned
it not guilty, and then afteropening statements, I guess he felt bad
or for whatever his own reasons,he went back to his lawyers after I
guess sobbing was what they described andchanged his pleaded guilty so that they wouldn't

(01:52:15):
go through the trial. During theimpact statement, Eugene was now ten at
this time, and he came upon the stand to say, you know,
I don't have a mom basically,and that the family was very heartbroken
just seeing just seeing him go there. So his Eugene is raised by his

(01:52:35):
grandma, So Charlie's mom and Charlie'sbrother Greg stayed home instead of going out
and traveling and doing that stuff,just so that he could be a part
of Eugene's life while he was stillyoung. And that's what happened with them.
Coincidentally, as a side note,carl had said I that he hated

(01:52:58):
being labeled a serial that he wasn'ta serial killer, and that didn't describe
him. He always maintained his innocencewith regards to the death of Jackie McClean.
And he actually wasn't an appeal forretrial so by the Ontario Supreme Court
and he was granted a retrial,and in the retrial he was acquitted of

(01:53:24):
Jackie's a murder. So, buthe's still in jail serving the time for
pat His lawyer said, Listen,he admitted to these two other murders.
He's already in jail. He's notgoing to be out until he's you know,
seventy. If that so, whywould he just not leave it?
But he killed them, He waswent to the the person who he went

(01:53:46):
killed it and lived there. Sothese people were killed and a child was
there. I mean, I'm sorry, he didn't kill the kid, but
he doesn't get killed on it forthat. He still and he's a serial
killer. He killed more than oneperson. Yeah, so he's sorry.
Did he did he remember that hehad killed these people? Yes? He

(01:54:11):
has. He definitely, he definitelyremembers killing people. He got the two
scenes mixed up and um in thedescription it is, but he definitely he
definitely remembers killing them. I mean, for someone who says that they didn't

(01:54:33):
mean to murder them, that wasextremely violent. It was extremely violent.
Yeah, but he was also ifhe was on crack, I mean,
that's not an excuse, but I'veheard that put it on YouTube, but

(01:54:53):
I've heard that you're more aggressive,like you said, inner thing, so
and strong. He may not haverealized it was as violent as it was,
but I'm sorry. Drugs do notare not an excuse. Nope,
and that is why he isn't Joeland this ten year old who you know

(01:55:13):
saw had they ever said he sawthe eyes? But did Eugene actually see
the vicious attack or just the person? I think he saw the person.
I mean, he definitely saw theaftermath, right, but did he see
it happening? I mean because Ijust wonder what is it? What does
that do to a child? Basically, he said that during the attack,

(01:55:34):
from what they could glean from him, because he went through different because you
know when they interviewed children, theygo through like a play therapy. Basically,
what he had said is during thattime he was hiding with his shoes,
which they assumed was his closet becausethe closet door had been opened.
So afterwards, because Carl came backinto the apartment three different times, that's

(01:56:00):
probably when when Eugene stopped. ButEugene said he did get up in the
night because he had been sick,and that when he went to go try
to wake his mom up, shewas gone. So he understood that she
was gone, and that there's paintall over the walls in beds, So
it means very very sad. Eugenewould be Eugene, I believe he was

(01:56:20):
still living in Hamilton. He wouldbe what twenty three, no, twenty
three? Yeah? Yeah, som so now, yeah, I know
that he had said that he doesn'treally tell people about what happened with his

(01:56:42):
mom, and he calls his grandmamom because he just doesn't want to get
into it. But if somebody's reallyclose to him, he'll he'll tell them.
But yeah, that's a sad casefrom my neighboring city, which is
what I cover a lot of.Well, I'm glad he's in jail for
doing it. I mean in theway that they found him because of that

(01:57:04):
other crime that she was then acquittedfor. Right just as happened. Yeah,
somewhat, somewhat somewhat. The policestill believe that he was responsible for
Jackie McClain's death, but according tothe courts, was acquitted. So and

(01:57:27):
why would he confess? I mean, you look at serial killers like Robert
Yates that I just covered. He'sonly admitting to the ones that they have
DNA and he's he can't lie hisway out of So don't say just because
he's in jail that he would tellyou the truth. No, a narcissist,
the liar is gonna lie until theycan't. Oh, JT, you're

(01:57:48):
a wick. I wanted them topull water on him, so we've at
him. I whipped a cook.Glad to know that my voice is toothing.
It's so soothing that you just wentto sleep, now, ask ask
Caitlin and Amy the first time thatI did something with them. He fell

(01:58:08):
asleep and started snoring. Never that'sbecause he never sleeps night. An like,
I've literally got a health problem.You have narclepsy? Do you have
narcolepsy? It's a form of yeah, yeah, I mean not necrophilia.
I did say narcolepsy could be warmof that. Yes, I like totally

(01:58:30):
picturing you as Abraham Simpson. Aswho Abraham Simpson? You know, did
she watches Simpsons? He like fallsasleep in the middle of sentences Abraham Simpson.
Oh God, that was I haveto say, not only one of
these cases had I heard of,and I hadn't heard very much about it.

(01:58:53):
So you guys did a great jobpick in good cases. I'm glad
we didn't for the same case.I know. Yeah, so JT,
do you want to give us aproper send off for the recording so that
handsome hubby has something to work withfor the ending? Sure? Um?

(01:59:15):
Yeah. Now that you're awake andhe finished getting under, you know you're
no longer underneath, Caitlin, Dan, I'm so sorry it was not you,
I promise you. It's a lotof other stuff going on. And
then he had to go get thedogs. To finish him off because you
got all kinds of weird stuff goingon while you were going to take the

(01:59:39):
dogs out. This has been alot of fun, everybody. We're going
to have to do it again andfight crime with justice. UM. Why
don't we go around and say wherewe can be found? UM? I
think that would be good to makesure everybody knows where they can find us.

(02:00:00):
I can be found on Twitter,at the TCL pod. I can
be found and online as well atthe let's try that again blah blah blah
blah or there. Well, thankseverybody for getting together. We did.
That was an awesome job. Theywere all different cases. We didn't double
up. So we're gonna go aroundand say where we can be found.

(02:00:20):
Um. I can be found atthe TCL podum on Twitter, and then
I can be found at True CrimeLab pod dot com online. Um,
and then let's go around in theorder we presented. Oh my god,
I don't even know all my handles. That's really bad. I prerecord that
stuff for a reason. You candefinitely find mad or bad on Twitter,

(02:00:44):
though it is a matter about thepod. I'm just you know, Googles,
we're there on the internet. You'remad or bad? The podcasts on
Instagram raach mate, I don't evenknow who am I? Okay, well

(02:01:08):
maybe this is not Maybe we'll justput it in the show notes. Let's
put it in the show notes.I just have a linkage trip eight crime.
You want to give yours? Sure? So. You can find us
on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTubeat eat crime. And you can find
us on Facebook at eat Crime pod. Maybe you're uh um. You can

(02:01:32):
find me on Twitter at Murder andMore, Instagram at Murder and More pot
Facebook at Murder and More podcast.And this is Terry. You can find
me on the Twitter at Terry trueCrime, on Facebook true Crime and Wine
Time, and on the Instagram atTerry Loving Life. And this is Genevieve.

(02:01:55):
You can find me on Instagram atTrue Crime Real Time Podcast or on
Twitter at True Crime rtpod. Oryou can check out the news articles or
crime articles at Truecrime realtimepod dot com. And all show notes and sources will
be listed in the episode notes.Go team YEA A great job, guys,