April 6, 2020 • 12 mins
Neil & Rachel discuss the psychological phenomenon of Copycat Criminals and how this relates to true crime.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Warning, the following podcast may containdescriptions that some listeners may find distressing.
Listener discretion is advised. Any viewsare all our own and do not in
any way reflect the places where wework. Hello and welcome to matt or
Bad. My name is Rachel andI'm Neil. And this week on Mini
(00:20):
Mado Bad, we're going to betalking about copycat killers. So the term
copycat criminals dates back to the lateeighteen hundreds, about the same time that
Jack the Ripper was at large.However, it's far more likely that the
copycat murders have existed for well aslong as murderers have existed themselves. The
(00:41):
actual inspiration can be both real orimaginary. For example, the Aurora,
Colorado movie Theater Shooting, in whichwas apparently inspired by Batman's Joker. Real
life inspiration, like we've already mentioned, could come from any crimes, such
as the likes of Jack the Ripper, Richard Ramiers, and the Zodiac killing.
(01:02):
Indeed, the idea of a copycatmurderer is a rather interesting one,
and certainly one that bears the questionwhat kind of person wishes to copy a
murder? What the motives underlying thechronal behavior and what can be done to
prevent this occurring in the first place. First, and foremost, let's examine
some psychological theory behind the idea ofa copycat murder. There are many theories
(01:25):
and factors which may explain this behavior. Psychologist Nigel Barber explains that these acts
seem to quote lie outside rational analysisand more in the realm of psychological disorders.
After all, why would the sameperson use the persona of a comic
book character to murder innocent people whodoes not even know end quote. Indeed,
(01:46):
Nigel, and it kind of sumsit up. Nigel knows what he's
talking about. So in essence,he is describing a psychological disorder or a
mental health disorder as being the causeof such behavior, which is quite interesting.
Indeed, there, my love,Well, I think it's quite interesting
because he's basically saying there's a disorderthere and it's not like a conscious choice
(02:08):
as such, so which obviously thenas implications of you know, the like
you mentioned earlier, the murder ofthe Colorado the cinema one. Yeah,
So I mean he does beg yourquestion, doesn't it, even even even
without a psychologist kind of comments,Why that who in the who in the
(02:30):
right mind would have been inspired byhis always died green And so remember this
and go and kill you know,lots of people that you don't even know.
But there again, it goes backto the title of this podcast.
Doesn't it mad or bad? Buthe does a big implications on obviously the
criminal justice system, doesn't it ifit is indeed a disorder rather than or
(02:57):
personality or character. But obviously youknow. So the key characteristic of true
copycat behavior is the presence of mediaexposure describing the original crime. The motivation
behind the criminal behavior is also important. Being inspired to commit a crime by
the behavior of someone else is generallyreferred to as the contagion effect. That
(03:22):
is, a baby in the background, the baby no one, so that
so basically it's it's generally referred toas a contagion effect rather than a copycat
crime, although the public tends touse these descriptors kind of interchangeably. I
don't think the contagion effect just extendsto murders. Like you look at suicide
even and you can say, youknow, almost like a cluster of suicides
(03:45):
in different places. And again it'sit comes down to media exposure or knowing
people who have killed themselves. There'sone place close to where I grew up
called Middleton, and it's really awell known for like young male suicides.
And you do see, you know, one person ends their life and somebody
(04:08):
else ends up doing the same thingin really close but the timing and they've
known the person and stuff. Yeah, definitely. But then I think there's
a whole load of fact multitude offactors, a plethora in facts of factors
that could be in play there.You know, it could be the socio
economic Yeah, there's definitely more too. You know, as we know,
(04:29):
you know, do they have underlyingmental illness anyway? And these mates know,
you know, because as me andyou know Rachel with you know,
the work that we do, understandablyquite often people with you know that coming
to hospital, they're kind of socialnetwork is people that they meet in hospital
and they got something in common withand you know, they're on the kind
of the same journey themselves. SoI don't know if this is these people
(04:50):
though most of these people don't comeinto contact with mentality. Yeah, but
that doesn't necessarily mean you know,as you said before to me off air,
so to speak that the you know, the mental health services certainly impatient
in Ireland was not I mean,we think it's not what it is here,
So that's not necessary. What I'msaying is with the people that you
(05:13):
mentioned there, it's not necessarily thatyou know, they will I've had an
underlying mental health issue. It justmight be that it wasn't picked up diagnosed,
I think. And did you sayas well that when I talk about
socioeconomic status to those people, whichobviously is a stress and it's going to
impact on people's well being, andyou know, did you say that that
area is not is quite not notyou know kind of poverty there or we
(05:41):
just made that up, not particularlyI know who I know who've killed themselves,
they wouldn't have been particularly poor ordeprived or anything. It just seems
to be I mean, I mean, we both know there's a lot of
clear person not too far from us, don't with it. We both know
and recently in life. And yeah, I don't think that you wasn't an
(06:02):
issue there, but it's just wherethey of note, there's a lot of
there's a lot of different factors.But I think I still think there is
a bit of a it's not acopycat thing. It's just a It almost
like turns a switch on with somebody, like it gives somebody that idea.
Yeah, I mean, yeah,you've got to be a psychologist to come
to that conclusion of you. Yeah, I mean, I mean, how
(06:23):
dare you? So? Many theoristsworking in this area are careful to note
that while media depictions of criminal behaviorcan be copied, they're unlikely to actually
cause the criminal act in themselves.So, in other words, someone who
wasn't already motivated to commit a crimewouldn't suddenly become motivated just because they see
something on television or they you know, read something in the newspaper like a
predisposition. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, I agree. So they're kind of
(06:47):
saying, you know, a contagiouseffect is there for quite rare so to
speak. There appears to be twomain theoretical methods of thinking in regards to
copycat killers. So there's two things. Is the we can't affect anti personalization.
So let's take a closer look atthe copycat effect. It is theorized
that murderers thrive on the attention andpublicity gain by the original crime and the
(07:12):
subsequent attention their acts will, undoubtto receive. A study conducted in the
late nineteen sixties by Canadian psychologist AlbertBandura, the Old Bandura, shed some
light on this particular explanation. Bandura'sstudy sort to find out if aggression was
a learned behavior. The studies showedthat even children could learn aggression, most
especially if they saw others being rewardedfor the behavior, so that the reward
(07:39):
is the expert media exposure of it. In yeah, yeah, and I
guess the trity as as it appliesto copycat crimes. The main idea behind
the theory is that these crimes drawmedia attention, which essentially rewards perpetrator if
you judge as we've just said,if you judge rewards and media exposure,
(08:01):
I would hate that. No,that I couldn't think about and work exactly.
But some people, for whatever reason, thrive off at why I eventually
become the rock store that you know, I won't like that bit about it.
Yes, well that's sorry another day, but you're just picking something off
media off your face. I think'sa bit of cheesecating. Actually, So
(08:22):
let's take a closer look at depersonalization. So depersonalization theory implies that murderers adopt
the persona of the one they arecopying in order to enable them to better
account and cope with the actions thatthey take. So, in other words,
copycat killers mimic their inspiration in orderto reduce their inhibitions and successfully carry
out the app that they need toie the murder. The copycat effect has
(08:46):
emerged in the twentieth century to includesuicides, murder suicides, familiar sides,
and rampage killings, so basically thattheory is all around kind of enabling the
person to be able to carry outtheir murder. Rampage killings became very familiar
to Americans in the late nineteen ninetieswhen they were literally hundreds of violent episodes
in schools involving threatened or actual useof guns. These are you know,
(09:11):
there's far too many examples to know. I mean, I literally googled American
school shootings and the list was neverending. I didn't realize there was that
many that were Like I knew thatthere was a lot because obviously it is
covered in the media. Yeah,but Jesus Christ, the amount of school
shootings is insane. Crackers in itabsolute crackers. But I think that the
(09:33):
main one that I know I wouldhave, like, the main one that
I would have Columbine. Yeah,I'm kind of the first one that I
would have been aware of would havebeen Columbine. Yeah, but there's been
so many bowling for Columbines. Yeah, but I mean there's been so many
since. When crimes that receive alot of attention form clusters of this sort,
it suggests that the desire for mediaattention notoriety is a strong motivating factor.
(09:56):
As we yeah, generally speaking,journalists and social media you writers are
willing to accept that sensational coverage ofmass shootings makes these crimes more common,
which is obviously a massive issue.And yeah, I mean it is a
massive issue. But it's like wherewhat do you do? I think it's
difficult because like I think the population, like people deserve to have the information
(10:18):
and what's never going to not beis it? No, But I guess
there's a way of reporting it.Possibly, Again, that's not a big
sales papers seals papers for watching thenews, and this isn't really it's not
really the same thing. But likethe whole thing with the coronavirus, it's
kind of an example, but ina different way. I guess, like
(10:39):
the way the media cover initially wasfucking ridiculous and it causes massive panic and
people you know, were freaking outand going to supermarkets and blowing stocks of
toilet rolls and hand gil and it'slike, lads, seriously, flu kills
more people everybody. Yeah, soyeah, I do really think there is
a responsibility for me. Yeah too, obviously cover things, but'll cover it
(11:01):
in a I don't know, aresponsible way, I guess, yeah,
but it's difficult because it does inspirepeople and what like, what are you
supposed to do with that? Youknow, what's responsible reporting to us is
irresponsible to others and vice versing.We all know, don't we. It's
not good about all the phone hacking, and yeah, I guess it's an
(11:22):
interesting one. It'll be interesting tosee if anyone could hit us up on
Twitter and give us their views.I hope you've enjoyed listening to this minimad
or Bad episode. As always,catch us on Facebook, dot com forward
slash mad or Bad. You cancatch us on Twitter. Our handle is
at mad or Bad the Pod.And also we now have a Patreon account,
(11:46):
so please go look us up atas patreon dot com forward slash mad
or bad, you can access exclusivecontent. We have exclusive episodes only available
to Patreon supporters, So yeah,go find us
Warning, the following podcast may containdescriptions that some listeners may find distressing.
Listener discretion is advised. Any viewsare all our own and do not in
any way reflect the places where wework. Hello and welcome to matt or
Bad. My name is Rachel andI'm Neil. And this week on Mini
(00:20):
Mado Bad, we're going to betalking about copycat killers. So the term
copycat criminals dates back to the lateeighteen hundreds, about the same time that
Jack the Ripper was at large.However, it's far more likely that the
copycat murders have existed for well aslong as murderers have existed themselves. The
(00:41):
actual inspiration can be both real orimaginary. For example, the Aurora,
Colorado movie Theater Shooting, in whichwas apparently inspired by Batman's Joker. Real
life inspiration, like we've already mentioned, could come from any crimes, such
as the likes of Jack the Ripper, Richard Ramiers, and the Zodiac killing.
(01:02):
Indeed, the idea of a copycatmurderer is a rather interesting one,
and certainly one that bears the questionwhat kind of person wishes to copy a
murder? What the motives underlying thechronal behavior and what can be done to
prevent this occurring in the first place. First, and foremost, let's examine
some psychological theory behind the idea ofa copycat murder. There are many theories
(01:25):
and factors which may explain this behavior. Psychologist Nigel Barber explains that these acts
seem to quote lie outside rational analysisand more in the realm of psychological disorders.
After all, why would the sameperson use the persona of a comic
book character to murder innocent people whodoes not even know end quote. Indeed,
(01:46):
Nigel, and it kind of sumsit up. Nigel knows what he's
talking about. So in essence,he is describing a psychological disorder or a
mental health disorder as being the causeof such behavior, which is quite interesting.
Indeed, there, my love,Well, I think it's quite interesting
because he's basically saying there's a disorderthere and it's not like a conscious choice
(02:08):
as such, so which obviously thenas implications of you know, the like
you mentioned earlier, the murder ofthe Colorado the cinema one. Yeah,
So I mean he does beg yourquestion, doesn't it, even even even
without a psychologist kind of comments,Why that who in the who in the
(02:30):
right mind would have been inspired byhis always died green And so remember this
and go and kill you know,lots of people that you don't even know.
But there again, it goes backto the title of this podcast.
Doesn't it mad or bad? Buthe does a big implications on obviously the
criminal justice system, doesn't it ifit is indeed a disorder rather than or
(02:57):
personality or character. But obviously youknow. So the key characteristic of true
copycat behavior is the presence of mediaexposure describing the original crime. The motivation
behind the criminal behavior is also important. Being inspired to commit a crime by
the behavior of someone else is generallyreferred to as the contagion effect. That
(03:22):
is, a baby in the background, the baby no one, so that
so basically it's it's generally referred toas a contagion effect rather than a copycat
crime, although the public tends touse these descriptors kind of interchangeably. I
don't think the contagion effect just extendsto murders. Like you look at suicide
even and you can say, youknow, almost like a cluster of suicides
(03:45):
in different places. And again it'sit comes down to media exposure or knowing
people who have killed themselves. There'sone place close to where I grew up
called Middleton, and it's really awell known for like young male suicides.
And you do see, you know, one person ends their life and somebody
(04:08):
else ends up doing the same thingin really close but the timing and they've
known the person and stuff. Yeah, definitely. But then I think there's
a whole load of fact multitude offactors, a plethora in facts of factors
that could be in play there.You know, it could be the socio
economic Yeah, there's definitely more too. You know, as we know,
(04:29):
you know, do they have underlyingmental illness anyway? And these mates know,
you know, because as me andyou know Rachel with you know,
the work that we do, understandablyquite often people with you know that coming
to hospital, they're kind of socialnetwork is people that they meet in hospital
and they got something in common withand you know, they're on the kind
of the same journey themselves. SoI don't know if this is these people
(04:50):
though most of these people don't comeinto contact with mentality. Yeah, but
that doesn't necessarily mean you know,as you said before to me off air,
so to speak that the you know, the mental health services certainly impatient
in Ireland was not I mean,we think it's not what it is here,
So that's not necessary. What I'msaying is with the people that you
(05:13):
mentioned there, it's not necessarily thatyou know, they will I've had an
underlying mental health issue. It justmight be that it wasn't picked up diagnosed,
I think. And did you sayas well that when I talk about
socioeconomic status to those people, whichobviously is a stress and it's going to
impact on people's well being, andyou know, did you say that that
area is not is quite not notyou know kind of poverty there or we
(05:41):
just made that up, not particularlyI know who I know who've killed themselves,
they wouldn't have been particularly poor ordeprived or anything. It just seems
to be I mean, I mean, we both know there's a lot of
clear person not too far from us, don't with it. We both know
and recently in life. And yeah, I don't think that you wasn't an
(06:02):
issue there, but it's just wherethey of note, there's a lot of
there's a lot of different factors.But I think I still think there is
a bit of a it's not acopycat thing. It's just a It almost
like turns a switch on with somebody, like it gives somebody that idea.
Yeah, I mean, yeah,you've got to be a psychologist to come
to that conclusion of you. Yeah, I mean, I mean, how
(06:23):
dare you? So? Many theoristsworking in this area are careful to note
that while media depictions of criminal behaviorcan be copied, they're unlikely to actually
cause the criminal act in themselves.So, in other words, someone who
wasn't already motivated to commit a crimewouldn't suddenly become motivated just because they see
something on television or they you know, read something in the newspaper like a
predisposition. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, I agree. So they're kind of
(06:47):
saying, you know, a contagiouseffect is there for quite rare so to
speak. There appears to be twomain theoretical methods of thinking in regards to
copycat killers. So there's two things. Is the we can't affect anti personalization.
So let's take a closer look atthe copycat effect. It is theorized
that murderers thrive on the attention andpublicity gain by the original crime and the
(07:12):
subsequent attention their acts will, undoubtto receive. A study conducted in the
late nineteen sixties by Canadian psychologist AlbertBandura, the Old Bandura, shed some
light on this particular explanation. Bandura'sstudy sort to find out if aggression was
a learned behavior. The studies showedthat even children could learn aggression, most
especially if they saw others being rewardedfor the behavior, so that the reward
(07:39):
is the expert media exposure of it. In yeah, yeah, and I
guess the trity as as it appliesto copycat crimes. The main idea behind
the theory is that these crimes drawmedia attention, which essentially rewards perpetrator if
you judge as we've just said,if you judge rewards and media exposure,
(08:01):
I would hate that. No,that I couldn't think about and work exactly.
But some people, for whatever reason, thrive off at why I eventually
become the rock store that you know, I won't like that bit about it.
Yes, well that's sorry another day, but you're just picking something off
media off your face. I think'sa bit of cheesecating. Actually, So
(08:22):
let's take a closer look at depersonalization. So depersonalization theory implies that murderers adopt
the persona of the one they arecopying in order to enable them to better
account and cope with the actions thatthey take. So, in other words,
copycat killers mimic their inspiration in orderto reduce their inhibitions and successfully carry
out the app that they need toie the murder. The copycat effect has
(08:46):
emerged in the twentieth century to includesuicides, murder suicides, familiar sides,
and rampage killings, so basically thattheory is all around kind of enabling the
person to be able to carry outtheir murder. Rampage killings became very familiar
to Americans in the late nineteen ninetieswhen they were literally hundreds of violent episodes
in schools involving threatened or actual useof guns. These are you know,
(09:11):
there's far too many examples to know. I mean, I literally googled American
school shootings and the list was neverending. I didn't realize there was that
many that were Like I knew thatthere was a lot because obviously it is
covered in the media. Yeah,but Jesus Christ, the amount of school
shootings is insane. Crackers in itabsolute crackers. But I think that the
(09:33):
main one that I know I wouldhave, like, the main one that
I would have Columbine. Yeah,I'm kind of the first one that I
would have been aware of would havebeen Columbine. Yeah, but there's been
so many bowling for Columbines. Yeah, but I mean there's been so many
since. When crimes that receive alot of attention form clusters of this sort,
it suggests that the desire for mediaattention notoriety is a strong motivating factor.
(09:56):
As we yeah, generally speaking,journalists and social media you writers are
willing to accept that sensational coverage ofmass shootings makes these crimes more common,
which is obviously a massive issue.And yeah, I mean it is a
massive issue. But it's like wherewhat do you do? I think it's
difficult because like I think the population, like people deserve to have the information
(10:18):
and what's never going to not beis it? No, But I guess
there's a way of reporting it.Possibly, Again, that's not a big
sales papers seals papers for watching thenews, and this isn't really it's not
really the same thing. But likethe whole thing with the coronavirus, it's
kind of an example, but ina different way. I guess, like
(10:39):
the way the media cover initially wasfucking ridiculous and it causes massive panic and
people you know, were freaking outand going to supermarkets and blowing stocks of
toilet rolls and hand gil and it'slike, lads, seriously, flu kills
more people everybody. Yeah, soyeah, I do really think there is
a responsibility for me. Yeah too, obviously cover things, but'll cover it
(11:01):
in a I don't know, aresponsible way, I guess, yeah,
but it's difficult because it does inspirepeople and what like, what are you
supposed to do with that? Youknow, what's responsible reporting to us is
irresponsible to others and vice versing.We all know, don't we. It's
not good about all the phone hacking, and yeah, I guess it's an
(11:22):
interesting one. It'll be interesting tosee if anyone could hit us up on
Twitter and give us their views.I hope you've enjoyed listening to this minimad
or Bad episode. As always,catch us on Facebook, dot com forward
slash mad or Bad. You cancatch us on Twitter. Our handle is
at mad or Bad the Pod.And also we now have a Patreon account,
(11:46):
so please go look us up atas patreon dot com forward slash mad
or bad, you can access exclusivecontent. We have exclusive episodes only available
to Patreon supporters, So yeah,go find us
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