Mini Mad or Bad: False Memories

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show notes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome#Sexual_abuse_cases
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/false-memory-crime
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/false-memory-syndrome-false-confessions-memories
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/people-can-be-convinced-they-committed-a-crime-they-dont-remember.html

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello, matt Our Bad listeners.It's Rachel here. I just wanted to
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(00:48):
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Hello and welcome to mad or Bad. My name is Rachel and I'm Neil,
and today we are discussing the psychologicalphenomenon of false memories. So this

(01:12):
episode carries on quite nicely from oneof our episodes which we previously did.
It came out on February twenty fourth, and it was called False Confessions,
so they're both very closely linked.However, this episode looks more closely at
the actual false memory as opposed tothe confession in itself, and I guess
looking more at the psychology behind thefalse memory. So false memories are everywhere

(01:36):
in everyday situations. We don't reallynotice or care that they're happening. We
call the mistakes or say we misrememberthings. In psychology, false memory is
a phenomenon where a person wecall somethingthat did not happen, or we call
it differently from the way it actuallyhappened. Suggestibility, activation of associated information,
the incorporation of misinformation, and sourcemisattribution. I've been suggested to be

(02:00):
several mechanisms underlining a variety of typesof false memory phenomena. False memories are
a component of false memory syndrome,so f M S. False memories maybe
the result of recovered memory therapy.I'm also defined by they f M F
and in the early nineteen nineties,which describes a range of therapy methods that

(02:22):
are prone to creating confabulations. Someof the influential figures in the genesis of
the theory of forensic psychologists, thegreat name one the Vega and psychologists Elizabeth
Loftus and sociologist Richard Oh. Ithink you know what I've come before we

(02:44):
kind of go further with this.I've come across an amazing podcast which I'm
absolutely obsessed about, particularly around falseYeah. It's it's um It's called The
Walkers Switch and it's about Walker's Crisps. I've been on about. There's so
much to everyone of like, everyoneneeds to listen to this. So basically
it's about Walkers Crisps in the UKthey have, you know, lots of

(03:08):
different flavors, but basically they're cheeseand onion flavor is blue blue and the
salt vinegar is green. But traditionallythey're actually the other way around. So
why like any other brands basically andin Ireland, so yeah, but also
in the UK like other brands Walkersin Ireland Patoes, which is like the

(03:28):
equivalent to Walkers in Ireland, isn'tit. Yeah, well, different brands.
So basically the podcast is surrounding peoplehaving a memory, like a collective
memory of Walkers switching the colors ofthe flavors back in the nineties, but
Walkers actually say that it never happened. It's absolutely mad because people have like

(03:49):
specific memories about like ads that theydid to change it and stuff, but
it never happened. Well, well, what's happened? Saying never happened?
But Gary Lineker said I did wallOr in Match of the Day Yeah,
and he's obviously like the for foreverand he says it's always been the man
who did happened? Yeah, andagain this now. Yeah. I don't

(04:13):
know whether I've got a false memoryor I seem to think I was too
young. I distinctly remember something Iwas very young with myself, but I
just remember something about this. ButI don't know whether it's indeed, you
know, a false memory or socioYeah. Yeah, And did you say
there's some figures on it or somethingthat three? What was it that there

(04:33):
were some figures you quoted to mefrom this podcast? How many people said
that it? Oh, it waslike two thirds of British British people that
they had spoken to say that ithappened, and one third say that it
doesn't. And it's like, whydo two thirds of people say that it
happened? Just as why would theydo that? We like to get people
talking about Walkers. It's so mindblowing and I love it. There's something

(04:57):
so like interesting about it. Wouldlike psychologists a lot. It's so strange.
But even a guy from an advertisingagency who worked like Walkers was a
client for, said that he rememberssome kind of an ad but whether it
actually went out or I can't rememberbecause it was like back in the nineties,
and I'm like, oh my god, did they switch them right?

(05:17):
You know? And and I feltthat it was the advertisements for four Walkers
all did but then again as eitherfault. But but what everyone I have
with this false memory is just that, and it's a mystery. It is,
honestly example, anyone, if anyoneremembers the Walker switch, let us

(05:41):
know. So. In nineteen ohsix, Hugo. Munsterberg, the chair
of the Psychology Laboratory at Harvard Universityand the president of the American Psychological Association,
wrote in The Times magazine about acase of false confession. A woman
had been found dead in Chicago anda man had been accused for murder.
The young man was quote quite willingto repeat his confession again and again,

(06:02):
each time it became richer in detail. The account of the murder was quote
absurd and contradictory, a clear instanceof the involuntary elaboration of a suggestion from
his interrogators. One case that Martinpreschool trial was based on nine victims memories
of molestation and ritual abuse, memoriesthat they had supposedly forgotten and then,

(06:25):
after being interviewed, recovered. Thecase fell apart in nineteen ninety because the
prosecution could produce no evidence of thevictims claims. A cognitive psychologist named Elizabeth
Loftus, who just mentioned we wereconsulted on the case. Wondered whether the
children's memories might have been fabricated sobasically involuntary elaborated, almost involuntary planted in

(06:45):
their minds, rather than actually recoveredfrom real memories. So Loftus conducted an
experiment to test this theory. Subjectsof the experiment were told a story where
they had gotten lost in a shoppingcenter and were subsequently rescued by an ad.
To make the story more believable,loft has added kind of biological information
given from the subject's parents. Thesubjects were interviewed twice, at one week

(07:09):
in two week intervals, and itappeared by the second week's interview that many
subjects had internalized the story and actuallybelieved it to be true to Other psychologists,
Julia Shaw of the University of Bedfordshireand Stephen Porter of the University of
British Columbia have since expanded on thistheory and have successfully implanted false memories of
criminal activities in participants' minds. Soquote, we thought we'd have something like

(07:31):
a thirty percent success rate, andwe ended up having over seventy percent,
said Shaw. We only had ahandful of people who didn't believe us.
So the importance seems to lay intaking that information and suggestion from people from
power or people from authority of sources, So police psychologists, people in power
basically yeah. So. Another exampleis that our nineteen year old California girl

(07:58):
named Holly Amona, who began torecord being abused by her father doing a
therapy session in the nineties. Hermemories were aided by doses of sodium amaturals,
so called truth serum, known tomake people believe they recalling real events.
Her father successfully soothed therapist for negligencein nineteen ninety four and was the
first case to find therapists guilty ofin planting false marrors. It's interesting,

(08:20):
isn't it. I presume that theydidn't intentionally false memories, but it's that
kind of suggestion thing, isn't it. Of Yeah, it's so easy to
suggest anything. Like if you're havinglike this counseling kind of therapy session and
you're saying, you know, describethe abuse that you encountered. Yeah,
that already is basically saying that you'vebeen abused, so describe it. And

(08:43):
it's almost like you have to describeit then because you're you're kind of almost
yeah. I guess it's kind ofon the spot sort of the expectation is,
yeah, Yeah, it's weird,isn't it. I Mean, I
think the best example so far isthe mean it's easy to relate to,
isn't it? War Just n Iloved so much that it's the word like,

(09:05):
you know, he's kind of notas important or whatever, but but
but it's an interesting example of that'skind of collective false memory. So in
August twenty fifteen, so much morerecently, the UK Police launch an investigation
into the alleged pedophilia of deceased formthe UK Prime Minister Edward Heath, So
that was in the When was heprime minister? He was seven? I

(09:31):
think I think he was electing somelike seventy three and then I think he
got No, he wasn't he wasprime minister, but he I think he
was, but I think he wasout of office. He was like in
the shadow cabinet, shadow prime minister. And then I think he Margaret Thatcher
thinking like seventy five or something likehe's either stepped down or shadow Maggie.

(09:56):
Yeah. Then then obviously she wenton in Yeah, something on between the
election. But we're going on track. The heart of this allegation, so
against Edward Eath was a woman,So it was called Lucy Eggs, who
investigating criminologists Virtual Hoskins has since discoveredunderwent psychotherapy and hypnosis, which may have
fueled the allegations. In March twentyseventeen, police shut down Inquired, which

(10:18):
could cost more than one million poundsquortally due to interficient evidence. Yeah,
yeah, he wasn't alive. Thatwas it Ted Heath. But obviously it's
his good name, is it inhis family? And I remember this actually
at the time which not long ago, when I when we were going to
do this episode. Yeah, Iremember that I did. Before we did

(10:41):
the research for this, I wonderedwhat had happened with that kind of allegation.
It's a lot of money, though, want money. So the evidence
is there showing that innocent adult participantscan be convinced over the course of even
a few hours, that they haveperpetrated crimes. And these are crimes as
serious as you know, assaulted wareopens or you know, rapes, that

(11:01):
kind of a thing. The findingshave clear implications for criminal interrogation and other
aspects of legal procedure, potentially affectingsuspects, witnesses, and those involved in
boat law enforcement and in legal counselBut they almost you know, could apply
to really interviews that take place inother kind of settings and contexts, including
more therapeutic counseling or you know,even personal settings. Really so quote and

(11:26):
this is a quote from Julia Shaw, one of the psychologists who were speaking
about so she says, understanding thatthese complex false memories exist and that quote
normal individuals can be led to generatethem quite easily, is the first step
in preventing them from happening. Byempirically demonstrating the harm bad interview techniques,
those which are known to cause falsememories can cause, we can more readily

(11:48):
convince interviewers to avoid them and touse good techniques instead. So it's obviously
quite worrying when you think about policeinterviews and false confessions. The psychologists soul
casset and has studied interrogation and falseconfessions for decades, And you know he
says how basically his experiment illustrates perfectlyhow social pressure can make innocent people admit

(12:11):
to wrongdoing. And I quote fromhim, think about the dilemma the suspect
now faces. I don't have amemory for this, but the person who
took care of me does. Thereforeit must be true, and I have
to find a way to remember it. So it's almost like a self fulfilling
prophecy. Okay, it happened,I don't remember it, but it must
have happened, so I will almostkind of concoct that story to make sense

(12:33):
of things. So yeah, itis really interesting, isn't it. And
there's loads of different examples, likemaking a murderer depends who you ask though,
But I mean there was the wholething of the young chap. I
can't remember his name. Yeah,the nephew was the nephew of us and
he and how he apparently confessed underyou know, police interrogation that he helped

(13:00):
in this merger. But some peopleseem to think he did. Actually you
know that he was involved, somepeople don't. I don't know. Stephen
Avery, that was the fella.And then and Brendan Dassy Brendan Dacy.
Um, so yeah, that isthe episode for this week. Um.
This is the second last episode actuallymini of Mini mad or Bad. We

(13:22):
will be doing Lunacy and the Moon, which I is really interesting one actually
because obviously working in healthcare, youtend to use that phrase a lot.
So we will be doing that onein two weeks time. And then I
think we're going to take a breakfor a while because well, from from
Mini matter, we've just had ababy and the baby is not sleeping very

(13:43):
well, so basically we're not sleepingvery well, and also it's just really
hard to get time when there's ababy. Will be no matter, normal
Matter Bad will be back. Ohyes, we'll just continue. We'll continue
as is, although we are goingto change the way we do it a
little bit. So we're going tostart doing two stories in one episode and

(14:07):
we're basically going to tell each otherthe story because we did that for Christmas
and we really enjoyed doing it thatway. That was John Lennon and the
Loss Volase Murder Mansion. That wasfun. I'd like to doing it that
way, just to change it upa little bit and keep things interesting.
So thank you for listening, andwe shall see you again next week for
a long episode. Keep well,Yes COVID nineteen, Keep well, keep

(14:30):
it home, stay home, goodbye, see you bye. As always,
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(14:52):
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