Mini Mad or Bad: Victim Blaming

Neil & Rachel discuss the psychological phenomenon of victim blaming in the context of true crime.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Warning, the following podcast may containdescriptions that some listeners may find distressing.
Listener discretion is advised. Any viewsare all our own and do not in
any way reflect the places where wework. Welcome to Mini Mado Bad.
My name is Rachel and I'm Neil, and this week we shall be talking

(00:22):
about the phenomenon of victim blaming,so we'll get straight into it. The
phenomenon of victim blaming can be describedas holding the victim of a crime at
fault for that very crime that befellthem. The term has historical links to
racism and social injustice of black peoplein the United States, and was originally

(00:44):
coined by the psychologist William Ryan inhis book Blaming the Victim, which was
published in nineteen seventy one. Ryan'sbook was actually written to refute the theory
of Moynahan's work in nineteen sixty fivetitled The nege Grow Family the Case for
National Action. Basically, to putit short, Minahin attributed the experiencing of

(01:07):
low socioeconomic status, poor housing,and violence experienced by black people to a
quotes disrupted familial structure, as opposedto the fact that these factors, in
reality are due to social structures andother complicated political factors completely outside of the

(01:27):
control of the victims themselves. Accordingto the as One Project, experiencing victim
blaming can be critically damaging to someonewho has been a victim of sexual violence.
Survivors commonly experience a sense of personalsafety, a loss of control over

(01:47):
their own body, and an increasedsense of vulnerability in the aftermath of an
assault. Because sexual violence involves aviolation of one of the most intimate parts
of a person, both physically andemotionally, hearing insinuations that the survivors somehow
brought that pain onto themselves can severelyworse than feelings of self blame that they
may already be experiencing. Even hearingvictim blaming comments not directed towards a survivor

(02:14):
can cause a chilling effect that mightlead a survivor to not disclose the past
experience for fear of shame and judgment. This is part of why it is
so important to challenge victim blaming statements. If you hear them, you never
know the experiences of those around you. Victim blaming that takes place both on
individual and societal levels is a significantthreat to survivors being able to safely disclose

(02:38):
their experiences and seek hell. So, looking at modern day victim blaming,
we tend to see this mostly withfemale who have experienced sexual assault and rape,
but it can also be in relationto more mundane criminal experiences or experiences
of crime such as robbery or pickpocketing. Victims are blamed for what they wear,

(03:01):
you know, how they behave.Because we had to talk about this.
Actually we listened back to the DawnAshworth a linden Man episode, didn't
we just just as a you know, like a quality control thing, just
listen back and just see how howwe might be able to And I came
across. It was dawn, wasn'tit that was walking back along the path?

(03:22):
No, I was, yeah,I was dawn and it was And
I said, what did I say? Well, it was day, it
was in daylight, wasn't it orsomething in you? Well, I basically
said something along the lines of kindof insinuating that she shouldn't be walking in
a in a quiet kind of aplace on her own. But it's like,

(03:43):
actually, she should be able towalk wherever she needs to walk,
because that's it's the person who didthe crime, that I'd fault here now
I think we said that. Butto be fair to you, though,
Rachel, when you when you saidthat, it was only because because obviously
we knew what happened. Well oneknows now that listened to it. We
knew what happened to us, Soit was only out of I think some

(04:04):
of that because we researched the case. No, I think it's a I
think it's a perfect example of victimblaming though. So rape victims, as
I said, are blamed for whatthey wear, how they behave, you
know, where they go, whatthey do, as if to say that
somehow they've brought it upon themselves,which is obviously completely wrong. But similarly,

(04:24):
victims of robbery are blamed for youknow, for example, leaving their
phone in their back pocket or youknow, leaving a window open or something.
But it's actually in reality, yeahthey should like they're not asking for
that crime to take place. Nothey're not, then they're not. But
I think when you talk about victimblaming again, I'm probably now victim blaming.

(04:48):
But but when you see it's especiallywomen, isn't it, when they've
got the mobile phone most sometimes likein the back pocket of the genes.
But you should be able to dothat. The criminal that's it's the criminal
that's too to be a criminal.But any conversation as regarding victim blaming has
to be born in mind the actualsociety that we're living in, if that
makes any sense at all. We'renot living in a utopia where things don't

(05:11):
happen, do thee And it's notabout victim blaming. Things don't just happen.
No, absolutely not about victim blaming. I'm the last person that would.
But sometimes when you see phones andyou know, you've got these phones
that can be I mean, whatif you saw a phone though you wouldn't
you wouldn't nick it. I wouldn'tnick it, But it doesn't make But

(05:33):
I see it, and I think, Jesus, you know, and I
suppose I've got to stop myself therebecause I was going to say, Jesus,
you're flipping asking to get your phonename. But that's a victim,
ye, But we're so it's it'sso like normal to do it though that
you just that's what you think,isn't it. Yeah? Absolutely, I
mean it is a shame that peoplecan't walk you know, but I don't

(05:57):
know. It's a tough one.It's it's just I get what you're saying.
We're discussing it in the context ofthe society that we live in.
But the society that we live inis made by I mean, when we're
talking about criminal things, that's becausepeople choose to be criminals. Yeah,
that's true. So interestingly, aprofessor of psychology at the University of the

(06:17):
South called Sherry Hamby, so shewas called Sherry Hamby, and she speaks
out about victim blaming in the contextof a just world hypothesis. So,
quoting her, she says, Ithink the biggest factor that promotes victim blaming
is something called the just world hypothesis. It's the idea that people deserve what

(06:39):
happens to them. There's just areally strong need to believe that we all
deserve our outcomes and consequences. Closequote. So it just seems to be
something embedded in our human nature thatwe like to blame people. The just
world bias was researched substantially by psychologiescalled Melvin Learner in the nineteen sixties.

(07:00):
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(08:33):
These experiments involved women who are askedto observe what appeared to be learning by
punishment. When the learner, actuallyan actor, gave everyone answer, she
received painful electric shocks. Christ andyou can get away. We're doing this
now. It's such a like nineties. I always picked these funny experiments from
the nineteen sixties because you never getaway. We're doing them these days.

(08:54):
Afterwards, observers were asked to describehow they felt about the victim, how
likable or morally worthy she appeared tobe. One group of women that just
saw the victim get repeatedly shot tendedto criticize her, but another group which
before being asked to characterize the victim, was told that she was not seriously
harmed, did not engage in victimblaming. Seeing innocent people get hurt with

(09:18):
no resolution of the situation violated theobserver's sense of the world as just.
In order to reduce the threat,they saw the victim as deserving of her
fate. Several other iterations of thisexperiment showed that the more innocent the experiment
has made the victim seeming an unresolvedsituation, the more she was devalued.

(09:39):
Interesting It's just a weird experiment wasan excellent example of victim blaming in real
life and at its absolute worst.Is a trial that took place in Cork,
Ireland in twenty eighteen. Names arenow published to protect the victim,
who was seventeen years old at thetime, and also the name of the
alleged perpetrator has not been published becausehe got off so well he got off

(10:05):
or what we'll see. I mean, I don't know whether he is guilty
or not, but yeah, guilty, yeah, yeah, I mean yeah,
he was found not guilty. Soa twenty seven year old mail was
alleged to have raped the seventeen yearold girl. I don't think the final
details of the trial should even be, you know, spoken about. It's
really not applicable in a sense tothis case. However, you'll be surprised

(10:28):
and disgusted by what I'm about todescribe. So bearing in mind that this
all happened in court. As partof the defense, the defense lawyer told
the jury. This was in theclosing statement. You and this isn't quote.
You have to look at the wayshe was dressed. She was wearing
a thong with a lace front.In quotes, he literally held up a

(10:50):
pair of knickers in front of thewhole court. In his closing argument,
I mean, I just believe Ihave no words, and I was going
to say something really sexist, likeyou, it was, it's typical it
was a man, but actually thatwould be really sexist. So I'm going
to hold back on that. Basically, it's a defense lawyer, isn't he.

(11:11):
I mean, who's to saying thata woman wouldn't say? I know
what you're saying. No, thatis sexist, though you shouldn't say that
because I can't presume a woman wouldn'tdo the same. In his closing argument,
the defense lawyer was trying to arguethat wearing lacey knickers applied consent to
sex, which is obviously fucking ludicrousand a total load of bullshit, even

(11:31):
if in a way it did implythat maybe she was looking for somebody that
night. I'm pretty sure she wasn'tlooking to get raped. It doesn't apply.
Consent doesn't know. There's just twoseparate completely differently. He just like
it just makes me so fucking angry. And the accused was subsequently acquitted.
I mean, I don't know theins and outs of this, that's right.

(11:52):
I mean, the chat, whetherwhether he did or not, I
don't know, but the discussion aroundthe the lacey knickers being you know,
she's basically she was looking for it. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's again
and again she may have been thatnight, but that does not well we've
all been our clubbing, like we'veall been, you know, at that
age. That's fine, but thatwe don't. We're not asking to get

(12:15):
rape, absolutely, and we're alsoentitled to change her mind at whatever point
that may be. Needless to say, there was absolute uproaring Ireland. Needless
to say, there was absolute uproaringIreland. In Dublin, women hung thongs
and clotheslines along payments in the citycenter in Cork protested Lady Lingerie across the

(12:35):
steps of the courthouse. An onlineunder the hashtag this is not consent,
Irish women posted the photographs of theirunderwear in all shapes, colors and materials
to protest the use of such techniquesin court. Yeah. Again, it's
absolutely bloody fucking like ridiculous. Likeyou've got that seventeen year old girl who
was in court presumably at the time. Yeah, he was having to Jesus

(12:58):
Christ. Can you imagine that?Um awful awful. Mary crilly, directed
the corks Sexual Violence Center, said, I quote, my issue isn't just
the barrister, it's a system thatallows it. She also said what a
woman was it is her business,does not indicate interest or consent. It's

(13:18):
never a fault. She said,we're allowing the perpetrators to get away.
However, I mean again, justgoing back to this twenty seven year old
chap on this. You know hewas acquitted, Yeah, we did.
We're not well yeah, I mean, I don't know, the fact is
it's more about either way. It'sirrelevant because people have you gotten raped before,
regardless and people do like you,you do hear people saying shit like

(13:41):
she was asking for it, orhave you seen the way she looked or
look at what she was wearing.No wonder ye And I'm not suggesting it
was I remember was it last week? There was a big thing online about
that twap. Piers Morgan and backagain opinionated, Well, now we can

(14:01):
have an opinion, of course hecan. I just he said some stuff
about I don't know the quotes,so, but about mental health before,
about it being overused and you knoweveryone's got depression and and all this bollocks.
There's a there's a weather lady onthe well, she does the weather

(14:24):
good Morning TV, GMT or whateverit's called a MTV whatever GMTV, So
what it's called, I don't know. Do you mean the Lorraine Show?
No, No, that she startsat nine o'clock the ones before. I
don't know, an ITV good Morningor something. Yeah, some ITV anyway,
and I think her name's Laura Tobywho does the weather. She had
the I want to she had thesekind of leather whether they were leather or

(14:46):
not leather look tight trousers which arein fashion at the moment, not that
it should make it and she wantsto wear them. So, you know,
Morgan said something along the line,so this is on online anyway,
saying something on the lines of itdidn't insinuate that she should be read.
I'm not saying that at all,Piers Morgan. If you listen to this,

(15:07):
I know you you're not because wedon't like you. But anyway,
he said something on the line thisis live on Telly, something on the
line of firstly called I think hecalled them hot pants, and then he
said, oh, you wanting toget noticed? That is so fun.
She said something like that, Ilike them to feel nice on and no,
and what's wrong with and things?Yeah? I look nice in them?

(15:30):
What's wrong with that? But thething is, though it might not
be to get noticed. But noone would ever say that to a man
um not on a not on aprime time would never happen. No,
not not on a television thing likethat. Yeah, and he wasn't.
I'm not suggesting he wasn't victim blamingbecause there was no victim. But it's
sort of that's just that sexist fuckingshit. And you know, I don't

(15:56):
know Piers Morgan the personally might bea loving bloke. I'm sure I don't
know. Well, I mean,I don't know him. I'm just commenting
on that, that's all. That'sjust my opinion. But yeah, it's
good to be. Where are thesethings though, because it definitely made me
aware of it's just wor like ifyou look on YouTube or something, I'm
sure it's on there. No,I just mean victim blaming in absolutely in
general. So it is because Idon't think I even realized that I actually
like thought that way in a way. M hm. But yeah, it

(16:19):
is good I said about the thing, didn't you know? Yeah, but
where did that come from? ActuallyI've noticed like the last few years women's
asses, but well but they doyours, melle. But what what what?
I don't know if you noticed that? No, I have noticed that

(16:40):
three four years. Or is itjust because when generally people have time so
and you can't get it in theNo. I think it's just people have
pockets and it's just yeah, butI didn't used to notice it. I
don't know anyway, So I'm goingoff line here, off line off line,
not off line off off no noticeare so finally I know we've been

(17:06):
arsening around but if you are yourloved ones been affected by rape or sexual
assault. And I know we've spokeprimarily about women in the example i e.
About Piers Morgan and the Rachel,but it is where it mostly men
as well, obvious. Yeah,I mean just recently Rand did the Yeah
Chap that was found guilty of rape. God knows how many people. So

(17:27):
men also get raped and can beit's actually assaulted. So please note,
are ever difficulty I'm sure it isdifficult to come forward the result part there
and we're in the show notes,We've we've put a few were a few
people in there. Obviously the policein the first instance will go to the
nearest emergency department if you acquire emergencyphysical health. So thank you for listening

(17:51):
to this episode of Mini Mad orBad. Yes, we will see you
next week for a full length episode. See you then, Thank you,
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(18:11):
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