MURDER: The Death of Derek Kinder

Neil & Rachel discuss the murder of Derek Kinder in 2001.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Warning, the following podcast may containdescriptions that some listeners may find a stressing.
Listener discretion is advised. Any viewsare all our own and do not
in any way reflect the places wherewe work. Welcome to Mad or Bad.
My name's Rachel and I'm Neil,and this week we shall be discussing

(00:23):
another case that is very local toRachel and I and it is the murder
of Derek Kinder in two thousand andone. So we go back to May
of two thousand and one, andincidentally, that was the FA Cup final
day in England, so that's footballfor us and anyone listening in the US,

(00:44):
that's soccer. My team, DerbyCounty not surprisingly wasn't in the final
as of May two thousand and one. So Derek Kinder he was seventy years
of age and lived with his wifePeggy and steps on Brahm. Derek was
both an ex police officer and anex teacher. Being seventy and probably with

(01:08):
a couple of decent pensions, hehad been retired for several years by the
time of May two thousand and one. They lived in a town called belbur
which, as we have said,as a very local town to where both
of us live. Belbur is amarket town approximately eight miles from the city
of Derby. As with all places, there are nice parts and not so

(01:30):
nice parrots, but generally Belbur isa very nice town with very friendly people.
Derek and Peggy's house was a decentsized detached property in a nice residential
area, with its own drive andgarage. Derek had a good number of
friends and enjoyed going for a drinkin his local pub for grapes. Derek

(01:52):
and Peggy often went to see theirdaughter and family in Australia for several months
at a time. They both lefttogether in January two thousand and one to
go to Australia, with Derek returningalone on April the tenth. Peggy had
decided to stay on in Australia tohelp look after their daughter's newborn child.

(02:15):
So, as we have said,together with Derek and Peggy lived Michael,
Peggy's son and derek stepson. Michaelwas twenty four years old and until recent
to Maje thousand and one, hadworked part time at the Derby Telegraph newspaper.
At some stage he did study atuniversity, although didn't complete his course.

(02:38):
He had also worked for a whilewith the Benefit Agency. It was
said that Michael and Derek got onwell and that there had never been really
any arguments of knows. Michael,although living with his mum Peggy, and
stepped out. Derek spent quite alot of time with his girlfriend Lorraine in
Little Over, which is just aboutseven or eight miles away. As we've

(02:59):
said, it's just a sub ofDerby. It was said, apparently by
a close friend. We're not surewhich close friend this was, that Michael
had started to have money worries fromabout Christmas time two thousand. He was
intimittently in work and he found ithard to settle in a job and so
he you know, he would havegaps with no money coming in at all.

(03:23):
Peggy and Derek had helped him out, loaning him a couple of thousand
pounds that year. Peggy and Derekwere aware where It's not absolutely clear,
but Michael had been forging checks.Everyone remember checks. It's a long time
ago since I had a check.To get a check from my auntie.

(03:45):
It's your birthday. I wouldn't daresay some of your bloody business very kind
of anyway, So Michael had beentracing his mum's signature, and so he'd
been obviously cashing check writing checks outhimself from his mother, and that amount
of two nearly eleven hundred pounds inthe period from January two thousand and one.

(04:11):
I mean we presume that they're gonnaknow, I mean, they're gonna
notice eleven hundred quid go missing.You would do wouldn't check. Yeah,
But when Derek returned in April upuntil his death in May, so a
month there's no kind of reported argumentsspecifically about that. Certainly nothing that boiled
over that you know, neighbors wereaware of it. It didn't get to

(04:32):
that extent. So around that time, which was Christmas of two thousand,
do you remember what you were doingChristmas two thousand. I don't think I
was in nappies. I was tenyears old and nappies. As I say,
I wasn't napping. I was tenyears old. And I remember going
to a party across the road likethe neighbors had, like you know,

(04:55):
like a New Year's Eve kind ofparty, rocking, and I remember wearing
this even what I wore because Iwas this white T shirt and I had
like two thousand on the front ofit and like sparkles, and I thought,
I was so, was this Christmastwo thousand or Christmas ninety nine going
into two thousand? That? Ohyou know what I'm saying. Yeah,

(05:15):
that's so. Around that time Christmasof two thousand, Michael had picked up
a leaflet in a local pub advertisinga money lending service. He promptly rang
them and arranged to borrow one thousandpounds, which was repayable at about one
hundred pounds fortnightly, with a totalmount repayable of one thousand, five hundred.
So every fortnight two to three mencame to the house of Derek and

(05:39):
Peggy to collect the one hundred pounds. For the first few weeks, Michael
managed to make the repayments with noissues. However, he soon defaulted and
began to actively avoid the men comingto the house. It was easy for
them at this time as Peggy wasstill in Australia and up until April so
was Derek, so it was easierfor I guess Michael to avoid these could

(06:02):
have gone to his girlfriends. Yeah, yeah, I kind of weird though,
that people just like came to yourhouse to demand the money. About
demand I mean that's probably in need. Was that normal? Um? I
know when I was a kid,I mean I know it was twenty years
ago and dad didn't have a lotof money. But to my knowledge,

(06:23):
there was a company called I thinkit's still going now. This is in
England of course, called Providence,and you know that is probably very regulated
as far as I know, obviously, very eye interest rates. Yeah,
like a paid day loan kind ofa thing. Um, I don't know
what the definition of a paid Imean I know what those really short term
loans are basically, but the Providence, but the Provident woman. It was

(06:46):
like the prov woman, the provwoman, and she would come around to
your house. I'm all suggesting thatthese people work for Providence, but it
still exists today. I'm sure neverever get a paid day loan. Yeah.
Well, I guess it depends ourdesperate you are, doesn't it.
If you desperate for money to paythe rent, then you got to do
it, haven't you. Yeah.So back to the day of May the

(07:11):
twelfth, two thousand and one,Derek had been seen the evening before at
the Grapes Pub which is in Belper, and as we've already said, that
was his local and he's said tosome mates, I'll see you tomorrow evening,
probably though it was last seen byneighbors on his street during the in
the daytime hours of May the twelve. That evening, Michael planned to possibly

(07:34):
spend the night at his girlfriends orcertainly the evening, and as we say,
she lived in Derby. The alarmwas raised by Derek's son Philip on
May the fourteenth, so a coupleof days later Derek could plan to pick
up his son and family from ManchesterAirport. They'd been on holiday, returning

(07:56):
Manchester about sixty miles away, sothere it was going to pick him up
now, Derek, he just hejust didn't arrive, which was not at
all like Derry. It was areliable family man who wouldn't miss picking you
know, his grandkids and his son, or he just wouldn't do that.
At that stage, Michael denied knowingwhere his step further was. He stated
that he'd come back later that evening, really late on from his girlfriends and

(08:20):
when he got back home, Derekwasn't there. So Peggy was contacted,
who as we have already said,was in Australia with her daughter. Probably
contacted by Philip would have thought it, I presumed, So yeah. She
made immediate plans to return and wasback at home by Friday of the following
week. On her return, shepretty much straightaway noticed spots of blood in

(08:43):
her lounge. Michael said that hehad seen these spots but presumed that they
were merely paint. I mean,why would you, I mean, I
have no idea what the color ofthe well depends what color of the lounge
was. I mean, presumably itwasn't. Just yeah, I mean either
way. Peggy disagreed straight away,and she was like, absolutely not.
You know, I'm going to callthe police, you know, then and

(09:03):
there. So the police promptly attendedand at that stage began an investigation into
Derek's disappearance. So how long haveyou been? Just how long as we
have you been gone? So thetwelfth, the night it was very late
on and the twelfth, going intothe early hours of the thirteenth of May
when Michael said that he and Ithink it was when the police investigating they

(09:26):
could tell from he had a taxiabout from Derby to Belper. So we
arrived back in Belpur very very lateon the twelfth, very early hours of
the thirteenth, right, Yeah,so the fourteenth was when Philip, Derek's
son was due to be picked upfor Manchester report. So that's the fourteenth.
And presuming then that Philip ran Peggywho Bury minds in Australia, Yeah,

(09:50):
going where the hell's my dad?Yeah? Then she arrived like yeah,
three or four days later. Yeah, so we'd been gone really probably
the bold a week. Yeah,pretty much a week when the police were
Yeah, yeah, makes sense.So police have just got involved, was
ray? She just said then,Michael he then divulged that when he returned

(10:13):
from his girlfriends. So as wejust said that late evening of the twelve
or very early the thirteenth, Derrywasn't there instead of Derek being there.
Michael said that he was faced withthree men. We think he's suggesting here
that three men are the loan collectors, although it's not altogether kind of clear.
So according to Michael, he saidthat Derek had had an accident,

(10:39):
but he didn't, you know,they didn't say specifically say what kind of
accident, was he injured? Washe what had he gone to the local
A and E department, Just thathe had had an accident. According to
Michael, he was unthreatened. That'sMichael with violence if he told any one
of this, or if he wentto the police to say that, you

(11:00):
know, three men were in thehouse when I got back, and they
said that Derek. Yeah, that'sstrange, isn't it. Well, yeah,
I mean it's not normal. It'snot normal. So Michael said that
the men had returned that Monday tocollect the car keys for Derek's care.
They then apparently drove the care away. Michael said that he had been too

(11:22):
frightened to tell the police until now. He thought that Derek would turn up
eventually. After all, the mendidn't say that Derek was, you know,
dead, or that they had anyplans to kill him. Apparently.
In addition, Michael had said atsome point in the preceding months that the
money lenders had caught up with himand, as a penalty for defaulting on
the loan, made him deliver apackage to Sheffield. Michael said that he

(11:45):
strongly believed that the package contained illicitdrugs, but that he had been too
frightened to either query this or totake a look. So obviously, what
we have just described as Michael's accountof Derek's disappearance. However, what we
do know for certain, sadly,is that Derek's body was found partly decomposed
in the River Trent near Newark,approximately thirty miles away. His head had

(12:09):
been removed, together with both legsand his right arm. And this was
really when the murder hunt began.Yeah, absolutely, yeah, Yeah,
they suspected that as you would,wouldn't you do we know when his body
was found like this date? No, there's different dates have found on the

(12:30):
internet. So the police obviously,as is usually the case, isn't it
need to investigate those closest to thevictim first? Obviously Peggy was Peggy's out
the scene anyway, Peggy's off offthe subspetalists. She's miles away, Philips
in wherever he went on only withhis family. Yeah, so I think
I think Derek had quite a lotto do with well, you know,

(12:52):
it's his son. Yeah, sohe wasn't there. So really to begin
with, it meant a thor investigationand have stepped from Michael and his whereabouts.
Yeah, which makes sense really,So at this stage the police were
made aware of Michael's financial difficulties andhypothesized that he and Derek Hauld had a
large argument or a huge argument aboutit when Michael returned on the twelfth of

(13:18):
May, and whether you know itwas when we talk about financial difficulties,
whether Derek was like pissed off becausethese three mankey turning up once in one
hundred quid every fortnight wouldn't change.Yeah, you would be or or it
was indeed an argument about the forgingof the checks. It's probably a bit

(13:39):
of both. Yeah, you'd imagine, Yeah, I bet you. Some
strong words were said. So policesaid that, you know, that kind
of precipitated Michael murdering Derek at thisstage. Michael was then promptly arrested and
charged with the murder of Derek.They believed that Michael had a derrick with

(14:00):
a sustained physical assault. The assaultstarted in Derek's bedroom as he was preparing
to go to bed. The assaultthen continued downstairs and Derek was murdered in
the lounge. Police believed Derek's carwas driven by Michael to Sheffield and abandoned
there. It was later finding Sheffieldso approximately thirty miles away. Oh that's

(14:22):
interesting. Yeah. Derek was thenpulled through the patio doors off his lounge
into the garden. His head andlimbs were removed and wrapped in black plastic
sheets. It was then believed thatDerek's body was thrown into the River Durrant
at Balper, with it eventually endingup in the River Trent. The River
Durrant runs into the River Trent eventually, and with the decomposition setting in gasses

(14:46):
in the body, would allow thebody to become buoyant and basically float along
the river. Derek's head, incidentally, to our knowledge, has never been
located. I find something. Imean, it's all arendous, isn't it.
I mean losing But the way thatI don't know, the way that
it's just just like dehumanizing something.And it goes back to obviously, you

(15:07):
know, if there's no head,then it takes longer for the body to
be identified. Imagine that cutting someone'shead off. No, you just can't
imagine. I can imagine cutting yourhead off sometimes besides you. The eventual
trial was May two thousand and two. Michael was adamant then and has never

(15:28):
since admitted to murdering Derek or arein anything to do with his disappearance.
His girlfriend Lorraine stated at the trialthat she was abducted by two strangers outside
of a pub in Derby. Lorrainestated that the two men threatened her and
said that she will be the nextperson floating down the river. No,

(15:52):
this was totally, like, well, that was totally Michael Gorn Lorraine.
Can you say this, because thenit looks like, well, for the
purposes of the potential legal action againstus with Lorraine, should you be listening
to this, that's what that's what. Well, my personal opinion is that
that is bullshit. Yeah, possible, Loraine, if that actually did happen.

(16:17):
But it sounds like, well,the jury and the police also agreed
with us. But oh well,you know mines link a line. Yeah,
so the prosecution case centered on thefinancial issues, including the forging of
checks. They put forward the casethat, although Michael had not pre planned
the murder, arguments over the forgingof the checks was a factor in his

(16:41):
murder of Derek on that night.Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,
So a pathologist during Michael's trial statedthat there was insufficient blood found in either
the house or the garden to suggestthat Derek had been decapitated. And you
knows, um, you know,at that place. The question remains that
maybe his body was cut up somewhereelse, but obviously, you know,

(17:04):
we don't know where that was,and that's not Yeah, and the pathologis
you're saying that, well, yeah, that's a note obviously, but that's
that doesn't let's say it wasn't Michael. Um all, let's say it was
Mike, you know, all allthe saying is that he wasn't you know,
he wasn't kind of to put itbluntly, cut up in the house

(17:27):
or the garden. It could havebeen. It could have been Michael that
killed him. All the other peoplebutts were But to me, that's not
really that's not for the pathologist tosay. That's more for the detective to
say. Pathologists looks at the causeof death, but how does he know
how much blood was in the house? And also, well, I'm presuming

(17:47):
it was in the garden or something. I mean, was it raining,
Like do you know a lots ofdifferent factors there? Yeah, there are,
but well yeah, absolutely there are. But I mean presumably the soil.
You know, it's not it's ascience too, it isn't. But
yeah, ok, sorry, Like, was there like an evidence of like

(18:08):
a struggle in the house or anything. There was in the lounge. As
we've said, with the blood,there was blood kind of splatter. Yeah,
but I mean to what I mean, obviously Peggy story straight away,
didn't you when she come into thelounge, Peggy knew what what was going
on? She yeah, she sheshe could tell straight away. I mean,

(18:29):
I think my theory is like theyprobably had an argument and then it
was an accident. I would imaginethey had a struggle and it was an
accent maybe like you know, Derekhit his head off something and then my
planet and blah blah blah. That'skind of like how I make sense of
it at the moment. Maybe.I mean, we'll have a little come

(18:52):
onto some of that in a minute. So yeah, So insufficient blood in
the house and the garden, andobviously the question remains, well, if
if you wasn't cut up there,then where, you know, where did
it happen? The pathologist's findings arenot necessarily indicative of Michael's innocence. The
pathologist's findings are not necessarily indicative ofMichael's innocence. Potentially, more of that
Derek's body was maybe cut up elsewherePeggy, Michael's mother, has continued to

(19:18):
stand by Michael, stating that hewould never commit such a crime and that
he was simply not capable of suchchain as acts. I mean, I
guess you never want to think thatare your kids, and as far as
we know, we've not had any. But that's you know, people do
commit murder on the first offense,didn't they. This is why I think

(19:41):
it was an accident. He panic. But as we said, though,
I think the police think that,you know, it was a sustained attack,
which I mean, I kind ofa sustained attack being an accident,
do you know what I mean?Yeah, it's not like he I mean,
we don't know for it, butI mean, was there signs on

(20:03):
the body of a struggle that weknow well, I'm presuming so if the
police said that he suffered a sustainedat time, Yeah, interesting though,
I mean obviously we you know,it's like with any of the cases that
were covered. We haven't some casesmore than others, but you know,
we haven't gotten me to see thepathologists report. Well funnily enough as to
access to that. If anyone hasit on file, can you please send

(20:26):
it so if we go to Maytwo thousand and two and the conclusion of
the trial. On the day Michaelstayed in his cell. He was on
romand at Nottingham Prison, which Ithink we've said before in a previous case.
It's a grim place, old Victoriansort of building. I've never been
there, awful I've been by it, you know, I mean I've So

(20:51):
we didn't go up to the dockto hear the sentence in he didn't.
He didn't know what he stayed.So he was found guilty of the murder
of Derek Kinder, who was jailedfor life with the minimum of sixteen years,
with the judge branding him and Iquote, an evil liar. Oh,

(21:11):
so spin forward to June two thousandand four. Some bones were found
by campers near to Belper at aplace called Ambergate, so probably about three
miles from Belper. Eventually, byDNA they were found to be bones of
Derek. But it has already saidhis head to this date or to our

(21:33):
knowledge, has never been found.Oh that's interesting. So now we come
to two thousand and five and anappeal to challenge Michael's guilty verdict was turned
down. Derekson Philip previously said intwo thousand and six that he was one
hundred percent sure that Michael was guiltyof murdering his father, also that he

(21:55):
had total faith in the police investigationand that Michael should face up to his
time. In two thousand and nine, Inside Justice, who investigate alleged miscarriages
of justice, looked into the case. They believe that Michael was innocent,
commenting on several aspects of the case. So they said that Michael he was

(22:15):
five foot ten and well by thetime of the trial he was only nine
stone, but he probably lost weightbeing in prison world. You know,
you probably would do, wouldn't you. But even before this he wasn't described
as physically strong, and there weredoubts that how could he overcome Derek who
yes, he was seventy, buthe was apparently in good physical condition ex

(22:40):
police officer. You know, hewas capable even at seventy of andel himself.
I mean, you can look atthat in two ways, can't you.
Well what if? I mean,we don't know, But it doesn't
matter how strong you're worth. IfMichael, yeah, or want to know
something to kind of disable him slightly, it doesn't matter, does it.

(23:02):
Yeah? So they made mention We'vementioned this, but they made mention of
the pathologists report stating that blood wasnot in the amount of blood in the
lounge and in the garden was notindicative of the body being cut there.
You know, as we've already said, you make of that what you will.

(23:23):
I mean, okay, let's sayas the jury found Michael's guilty,
Well, okay, what if hestill killed him, but it just didn't
cut him up where you know,like we've already said, haven't we he
dragged him into the car, cuthim up somewhere else. But surely they
looked at the car, the caras well. That was something that they

(23:45):
commented on this inside Justice when thecar was found in Sheffield. So if
you remember Michael said that they comefor the car keys, these three men.
Yeah, the police say that Michaeldrove it there, abandoned it himself.
Yeah. Nah. The passenger sideit was white, clean of prince.

(24:07):
And inside Justice so well, whywould Michael, if it was Michael,
why would he bother wiping it orclean of Prince. He'd been driving
that car around over the last fewmonths while Derek was with Peggy in Australia.
Maybe he wasn't wiping a cleaner prince. Maybe he was wiping a cleaner
blood though presumably possibly body and possiblybut apparently it had been kind of semi

(24:29):
professionally wiped of prince, which youknow is interesting. Yeah, yeah,
and nothing in the booth then nothingmentioned, so obviously, you know,
kind of goes to the was hemoved in that care? Did three men
take him in the three men's care, if the three men existed, if
the three men made just last todifferent possibilities, Yeah, I mean the

(24:52):
police are Nodart and neither did Philip. But there you go, so inside
justice as well, they said thatthe police say that a saw was used,
well they say by Michael to cutDerek Derek Cook to put it And

(25:14):
because now the main mention of ofa saw in the shed which had Derek's
DNA on it, which kind ofit would there was no Derek's blood on
it or anything. But I don'tit could have been another saw, couldn't
it. I mean, of course, you know what I mean, I
don't really stick that in the riveras well somewhere quite I think it's quite

(25:37):
interesting that when the police were obviouslyfingerprinting et cetera. In the in the
house, there were several glove prints, so Prince on the in the lounge
inside Justice saying, well, whyMichaels lived there for some time. We're

(25:57):
not sure how many years, butquite a you know, why would he
why would he bother putting gloves on? Well maybe he just didn't want to
touch the blood though, Michael,you know, he said in his defense
that it was these men were gloved. Oh yeah, pair of kitchen gloves.
Well I'm just singing around, handsunder his fingernails. Yeah. We

(26:18):
can only say it's just like thereis there's so many options or something.
What could have happened, Like Godonly knows. So I guess this adds
to their hypotheses of the three menMichael alleged were in the house when he
returned the night of May the twelve, two thousand and one. So they
believe they used a cover as moneylenders to recruit young men who would eventually

(26:41):
default on loan repayments, with theintention of then using them to deliver drugs.
Inside Justice believed these unknown men ordrug dealers were responsible for Derek's murder.
From the time of the murder throughouthis trial and imprisonment. Michael always
maintained his innocence in regards to themmurder of a stepfather Derek. So,

(27:02):
now in twenty twenty, if Michaelhad served his minimum sentence, he would
have been released in May twenty seventeen. However, as a minimum he could
well still be in jail. Nowwe've tried to find out if he's been
released, and we are able toestablish this. Actually there's nothing. There's
nothing readily available. Where is he? Where is he? Where are you

(27:25):
can't let us know contacts on socialmedia? Please don't? That would be
weird. Yeah, interesting case though, yeah, really interesting case. I'm
I'm I have a firm belief ofwhat happened, though, I think he
did it. Do you want toelaborate? I just think things got to

(27:48):
get it. Yeah, No,I think you know, all this loans
and all this shit that he wasdoing with his parents. I think Derek
just got pissed off one day andjust kind of said it to him.
You know, this needs to startbig. Probably a big argument doesn't mean,
like, you know, just becauseno one heard it doesn't mean it
didn't happen. Yeah, Well,and then something like it was it was

(28:08):
something like you know, somebody pushedsomebody and then it all went to ship
and then Michael panicked and you knowcovered it up well. As we said.
The judge said he was a evilliar, a vile evil or an
evil violet. I don't know.But so that's the case of the mid

(28:30):
of Derek kinda. It's a casethat I remember pretty well, actually been
in the papers, local papers.And thank you for listening, and we'll
see you next week, see younext week for a mini episode. Thank
you, thank you for listening.Bye. As always, catch us on
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(28:52):
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