January 2, 2025 • 42 mins
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This episode features Britney, a sex worker and long time friend of Julie. She offers a nuanced perspective on sex work that counters common stereotypes.
• Brittany’s journey and experiences in the sex industry
• The complexities of relationships and discretion within sex work
• How social media glamorizes the industry while neglecting its realities
• The emotional labor involved in providing intimacy to clients
• The significance of community and mutual support among sex workers
You're having trouble hearing Britney and Julie's conversations you can read a transcript here:
supplement.madampod.com/e07/Episode-7-Transcript.pdf
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
you have to be careful and I would never tell a
boyfriend that you know what Imean.
I mean it was that time aboyfriend that she met in that
business maybe or something, andthey know we'd like to have a
great relationship like that,you know.
But but it's just you know,since we're from nowhere, don't
(00:20):
tell them things like that, youyou know why not?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
They'll treat you different.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, they'll treat you different.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi everyone and welcome back to Madam, the
podcast about Julie Moya and NewYork City's most famous.
Bravo, I'm Ben Skye and sittingacross from me, as always, is
the amazing and talented Ms MVaughn.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey y'all.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
So today's episode has been a long time in the
making.
I know you've been working very, very hard on editing it and
putting it together.
We teased a little bit aboutwhat this episode was going to
be about in the previous episodewhen we asked about one of the
people that used to work withJulie a lot, whose name was
Brittany.
Now Brittany attended a coupleof our podcast recording
sessions before.
(01:01):
She has become very close toJulie over the years.
When Julie was having surgeryearlier this year, she was
basically by her bed in thehospital the whole time.
So we thought it would bereally interesting and
informative to bring in and talkto somebody who used to work
with Julie on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
We thought to give a little bit more color to the
podcast.
It would be beneficial for usand our listeners and Julie if
we had someone who is close toher, talking to her and about
her life and what she's like asa person, have been just that,
(01:41):
and we wanted to add moredimension and bring in Brittany,
who's known Julie for a reallylong time and in lots of
different capacities.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, so my first encounter with Julie was when I
went to visit her brothel many,many years ago.
It was one of my firstexperiences going to visit a sex
worker and while I wasn'treally yet an ally and didn't
know very much about the worldof sex work, I do remember
meeting Brittany.
Uh about, uh, gosh, it must havebeen 20 years ago or something
(02:12):
yeah, she's someone you neverforget that's right, and I think
one of the reasons we werereally excited about bringing
her in is that when she attendedsome podcast recording sessions
and tried desperately to sitquietly while we recorded our
conversation with Julie, wewould occasionally look over at
her and we could see her justdesperate to jump in and tell a
(02:36):
story or offer her opinion onwhat Julie was saying or what
the two of you were talkingabout.
She is a very high energyperson.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, yeah, love that .
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Love that too.
With that said, I think it'sreally interesting that when she
first starts out thisconversation, it's her first
time on a podcast and I get it,but she seems very reserved.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, I think she was nervous.
It's hard to have your voicerecorded and I understand that.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
For sure.
Now, one of the reasons thatthis episode has taken so long
to record is that Brittany andJulie have an amazing dynamic.
When I was listening to therecording that we did, they talk
over each other, they finisheach other's sentences, and I
was reminded I'm a lot olderthan you, but I was reminded of
this movie called when Harry MetSally, where they have these
interviews with these oldmarried couples who basically,
(03:27):
you know, sort of aggressivelybut also with love, talk over
each other and never let theother one say what they're
finished saying, but clearlycare for each other so deeply.
Now, unfortunately, that madeit pretty hard to edit, so we
couldn't use some of thatbecause it just sounded like
chaos.
But I know that you've done areally careful job of pulling
(03:48):
that relationship out of what wedid record and I'm really
excited to give people someinsight into that relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And I will just say I dated a Gen Xer who showed me
when Harry met Sally, so I wasaware of the film.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Thank God for that person.
Yeah, yeah, thank God.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So I was aware of the film Thank God for that person.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, thank God .
So without further ado.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Let's get into the lore of Britney.
How has the industry been foryou?
How long have you?
I don't know, I think maybe 22years?
Have you been like NYC based no, seattle.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I worked everywhere Seattle, I started in Seattle,
everywhere.
I love it, yeah.
Yeah, I don't think I want todo anything.
I mean I would love to, butthis is what I.
I like this.
What do you like about it?
The tension, the sex, the money, the community.
You get to meet so manydifferent people.
It's fun.
(04:47):
It's like dating.
Have fun, make money.
Think about it.
They're going to go to a barand spend way more money.
Let's come here, just give methe money.
Let's just have a tour.
There's been times where it wasrough, but it's always have
enough to order to get to.
I mean, there's been timeswhere it was rough, but it's
always been good to me.
(05:09):
Overall, I don't think I've hada lot of bad things.
The good outweighs the bad abit.
It's fun, it's exciting.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
What do you think when you hear her say that it's?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
good, I mean I'm happy for her.
Yeah, I mean because some girlsdon't have that kind of like
outlook.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
So you know, I might sometimes be addicted to it too.
Yeah, yeah Can you say moreabout that.
It's also like dependable.
It's always there, you know,even no matter what, say I'm
messed up with something all mylife and I have nothing.
I just go stick out my thumband you know start from there or
(05:54):
something.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Is that something that you like about the industry
or something it's kind?
Speaker 4 (05:58):
of comfortability with me.
I love everything about theindustry, except for, you know,
I mean, I can't even say that Ilove everything about it, even
the roughs and ups and downs andthe drama and the twists and
turns, and the slow days, thefun days, the chaotic days, but
it's fun especially.
You know I've been had, I'vebeen blessed to, you know, be
(06:21):
here with around, like beworking with Julie, working with
other places and being in aplace like Ben's, you know,
people meeting people.
It's just been really great.
I would.
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
This first part of the interview is, in a way, one
of the more interesting parts ofthe interview to me and, I
guess, one of the things I wantto ask you, because you work in
sex work do you love theindustry?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Do.
I love the industry.
I mean, I can only speak to myexperience.
And when we're talking aboutthe sex industry in general,
it's kind of hard because thatis so, uh, complex.
You know absolutely.
And britney, like she said, youknow over two decades in the
industry she's done a lot yeahyou know, so she knows better
(07:18):
way better than me, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
But do you love it?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But do you?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
love it.
Well, I guess, to not ask quiteas glib of a question, how do
you feel about your relationshipwith the sex industry?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
My relationship to it is pretty good.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I don't know that's so complicated it is yeah, I
guess here's what I'm getting at, I think In our first episode,
I think one of the things peoplereally were attracted to was
how we spoke about the sexindustry.
Our admiration for the peoplewho do it which remains, of
course, part of the process ofdoing this podcast has led me to
(08:02):
have some perhaps more in-depthconversations with a lot of my
friends who are sex workers, and, while my admiration remains, I
think that, for one reason oranother, people have started to
feel more comfortable expressingtheir complicated relationship
with the industry and the work,and it's something that you and
Julie touch on a little bitright, and I guess it's
something that, as I waslistening to this, I wondered if
(08:25):
I was giving, if we were givingrepresentation the difficult
part of the sex industry.
You know, to uh to how hard itcan be to do the work you know?
Um, yeah, you know the twistsand turns and ups and downs, as
Brittany calls it, but I thinkit's fair to say it can often be
a little bit more than that Alot of people doing it, even if
(08:51):
they have a very positive,healthy, which I believe I know
you do.
Um, yeah, I'm in awe of itoften, you know, but the work is
hard, as you said before.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
you know, work can be hard yeah, the work is hard, I
mean, but I also feel like lifeis hard sure, yeah, no, of
course that's not easy being acoal miner either, right?
yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah Imean, and and yes, like sex work
has its own like caveats andcomplications that a lot of
(09:14):
other professions you know don'thave.
Um, you know, for one thing,the stigma, the criminality
around it are just two of thebigger issues.
I mean, I can see it fromBrittany's perspective.
I've had a really blessedjourney with being in the
(09:35):
industry and there is theattention and the money part.
There are, I guess, glamorousaspects of it.
I wouldn't say it's definitelynot a glamorous profession, but
there can be like glamorousaspects to it.
For some people, you know, somepeople, it's not that at all.
You know, it's just a means toget by for a lot of people
(09:59):
actually.
But for me it's become myprofession and I don't know I
have a complicated relationshipwith that, but at the end of the
day it allows me to do thingsin my life that I think that I
would not be able to otherwise,just because of the way that
(10:21):
workforce is structured undercapitalism.
Because of the way thatworkforce is structured under
capitalism, to have, you know, alot of autonomy in my day to
day life is not something thatmost people get to have and I
feel very blessed about it andit's enabled me to figure out
what I actually want to do withmy life that is not influenced
by the workforce.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's why I called it one ofthe few.
What do they call it?
The renegade act or whateverrebellion act?
One of the few remaining actsof rebellion?
Something like that.
Yeah, yeah, radical.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, a few radical acts, yeah, yeah, yeah,
definitely.
But I don't have to feed intothis Western idea of what life
is supposed to look like.
Right, I can actually live lifein a more organic way and
figure out my dreams from there,and that's exactly what I've
(11:17):
done.
And the other part, too, isthat I didn't necessarily know
going into it, but I know now.
I like to make people feel good.
I like to, if it is possiblefor me, to, help someone with an
issue or help heal them to somecapacity.
Um, you know, physically ormentally, I, I really do love
(11:37):
that aspect of sex work.
You know it a lot of times itisn't that, you know, like it's
just transaction and semen on myclothes and hair.
But you know, sometimes it isthis really really beautiful
bond that I get to have withsomeone and I get to help them,
(12:02):
and that feels really good andget paid well for it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I often think about sex workers partially in the
same regard, uh, as socialworkers, right, um, which isn't
that they are asked to sometimescarry, carry someone's trauma
around sex.
And the Lord knows, in uhChristian fucking America, there
was a lot of trauma around sex.
Obviously, you are wise andstrong and intuitive when it
(12:35):
comes to humans.
But I guess what I want to copto is is initially, in those
first episodes, only seeing theadmirable, radical, empowered
act which it is, but maybe notmaking room for some of the
experiences that people have tohave on a day-to-day basis.
(12:55):
Yeah, absolutely you know.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
So it's like you got different girls from different
walks of life, different aspects.
I have no idea what they'redoing, and then they're usually
influenced because of how theystarted doing this from being
influenced for social media, Iwould not tell the boyfriend
nothing, it was no one'sbusiness.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
you, you know, I would say I was doing something
else, whether it be a phoneperson somewhere or whatever I
was doing right.
But these girls they get caughtlike on purpose.
You have to be careful and Iwould never tell a boyfriend
that you know what I?
mean, I mean, unless it was thattime a boyfriend that you met
in that business, maybe orsomething.
And they know, when you guyshave a great relationship like
(13:47):
that, you know.
But if it's just you know somesquare from nowhere you don't
tell them things like that.
You know why not they'll treatyou different.
Yeah, they'll treat youdifferent.
A lot of them have differentbeliefs and different you know.
They'll be like oh wow, she'sfucking some other guy.
They don't realize it's justfor business.
Even my grandson is like she'sfucking some other guy.
(14:07):
They don't realize it's justfor business.
Even my grandson is like oh, myGod, that's horrible.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Oh, my goodness, yeah .
So is that how you feel as well, brittany?
Like in relationships you don't.
I don't tell them.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
You tell them I don't tell them what I do, I just
tell them I do whatever it takes.
Let them think what they want.
I could be a stripper, I couldbe a bartender.
I'm not going to discuss what Ido with other men, with
somebody I have love interestwith and I don't even.
I'm tired of relationships,right, it's too much.
I have to focus on work and theclients because the boyfriend
just gets in the way.
(14:43):
Energy, drama, tears, can'tfind the things.
I miss it, but I'm good.
Why would I go outside and doit for free when I can go to
work and do it for money andhave fun?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
It's just I don't know.
It's weird.
Some of them just don't get it.
It's not just laying therefucking.
I just ask them what would youlike me to do while we're in
here?
And I just take direction fromhim.
I'm like that's not what it is.
You know, you can't just dothat.
That's just very boring.
Right, and that's not like it'snot interacting really, yeah,
(15:20):
yeah, it's just you know beinglike at his service.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
And they want to know you're having fun too.
And at the beginning of thissegment, brittany talks about
social influencers and I don'tknow.
I think that it's justsomething that again, because
I'm old, that maybe I don'tquite understand what she's
getting at as far as how that Idon't know may affect the
relationship with the industry.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
I just wonder if you can offer a little more insight,
at least for me, but maybe forour listeners.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I think Brittany was saying how I guess social media
has negatively well in somecases negatively impacted the
sex work industry.
It's complicated, obviously,but basically there's sex work
social media influencers ormaybe they're not explicitly
(16:23):
calling themselves that, butthere's Sugar Baby Influencers,
that sort of thing, and it'slike day in the life of a Sugar
Baby, day in the life of astripper.
I personally, I got reallyhooked on strip talk during the
pandemic.
I loved watching girls talkabout what they were wearing
(16:45):
going to the club, how muchmoney they would make an hour.
Some of them were real about it, but I would say a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
I mean, it is glamour , it's glamorization they're
showing the good stuff, justwhat we were talking about
before, right.
Yeah like the YSL bags and thebracelets and the red bottoms
and this luxurious life, thething that social media always
(17:14):
does Right Perfect hair, perfectskin, perfect body.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
And yeah, I mean yes, what social media does is, yeah
, glamorize things and andthat's particularly harmful in
sex work and I think that's kindof what I interpret as
britney's saying is, it's notthat, um, you know, because
social media can be a greatplatform for providers to make
(17:41):
money and get clients.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean I don't think.
I think this sex industry haschanged so much because of you
all being able to connect witheach other now.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, that's what has changed it from what it was
like when Julie came into it,right?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right, exactly, but it can be dangerous.
Like you come into thisindustry thinking that maybe
it's going to be a littletrauma-free, that I think
there's this idea, that I thinkwhat Brittany is saying is that,
with social media influencersin this way, portray it as it's
(18:18):
something that you don't reallyhave to work hard at, that you
don't really have to, that guyswill just kind of give you free
money and give you free tripsand give you free bags, and I
mean, if you look at femdoms,that is something that exists.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like a lot of them are probably
bragging a lot too right, likethat all feels a little like a
constructive image a lot of thetime when I you know run across
their accounts.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Definitely yeah, and I remember I was sitting in like
a sex worker support group.
We have like community meetingsonce a month here and this
older woman who'd been a sexworker over 10 years done a lot
of things she was talking aboutthis and she was like sometimes
you just got to suck a dick.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I mean not in a.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
No one should force you to suck a dick.
No, no, but in this context.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
It's like I got paid you gotta fucking babe like you,
maybe you could luck intosomething, yeah, but even that
it's, you're dealing with very,very toxic men, very toxic men,
very toxic people and theirrelationships, their lives,
you're.
I mean, you're playing withsome really hard shit.
(19:34):
And if you think that sex workis easy or you just are going to
get some free money, maybe hereand there but that's also has
to do with privilege and rightplace, right time, it's yeah,
you're going to have to work.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah, hey, here you are with a platform, you
crazy influencer, but uh, but Iguess what do you wish they were
talking about?
Um, that maybe would present amore realistic viewpoint of the
industry.
I mean it's because perhaps I'mlike it is more than just
sucking it.
I think it's encountering thesepeople that often that you're
(20:14):
talking about, you know, toxicmales, or I mean, or traumatized
male, or you know.
You know, what do you wish theywere talking about?
With regards to why it's notall Gucci bags, you know?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I mean well cause Gucci bags.
Do not fill your spiritual void.
Yeah, it is a 24 sevenprofession.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It is a 24 seven thing being a sex worker, um,
because because of the stigmaand criminality around it,
you're always having to kind ofwatch your back.
Um, you know, what are yougoing to do about your family,
people that you're connectedwith, things like that?
How is this going to affectyour future?
And also, yeah, I mean kind ofbeing in danger and and there's
(21:06):
no, if you do kind of findyourself in a whole situation
with the client, I mean there'snot much you can do legally.
There's just a lot of thingsthat can go wrong and a lot of
that that do go wrong for somepeople.
(21:27):
But yeah, and then also, likeyou're having having to
aesthetically, uh, kind of um,manipulate your body a lot.
I guess I should speak from myown experience, because there's
a lot of providers that they'resure they're like I don't fuck
with my yeah, yeah, any of mybody hair, like I'm not changing
(21:49):
any of myself Like clients arejust going to come to me as the,
which I really appreciate.
But I guess in my line of workit's it's having to keep up with
my mental state constantly, butalso like my physical state,
always having to think about mybody, what I look like, how I'm
being perceived, what I smelllike like, who I'm talking to
(22:11):
and am I, am I saying like, Ifeel like I live like four
different lives.
You know, and you know, part ofthat's like my decision, but it
is something that's I feel isall consuming.
And then the whole relationshippart, yeah, I all-consuming.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
And then the whole relationship part.
Yeah, I was gonna say, um, Iyou know gucci bags don't fill
your spiritual void, buttheoretically, love should right
, um, and one of the thingsyou're asked to do is, uh,
performatively love right or um,uh convince people.
I mean, which I know, at leastfrom some of the stuff that
you've told me and others havetold me sometimes there is real
intimacy there, but I also knowthat a lot of sex workers who
(22:56):
are friends of mine have verycomplicated relationships with
love and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And I think that that dovetails really nicely into
the next thing they were talkingabout.
And Brittany said somethingthat I've heard from so many sex
workers Uh, I don't even wantto bother with relationships
anymore.
It's just too much, you know.
Yeah, but then what is yourrelationship with love in
general?
Right, Right.
Yeah, yeah, I can likeproviders.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
They can say you know , I don't even want to bother
with relationships,relationships and then also
clients.
They seek providers becausethey don't want to, absolutely,
absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean the motives areare different on each side, but,
um, definitely I've had periodswhere I've felt just like
britney.
It's like why the hell would Igo meet some random dude on a
dating app and hook up with himfor free Excuse me, have bad sex
, when I could just get paid forthat?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
You know, has that performative aspect ever like
complicated relationship for you, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, I think so and I've I've talked to other
workers about this where they'relike they don't mean to do it,
but sometimes you know peoplewho they're dating can tell of
like, oh okay, you just switchedinto worker mode.
You know, and I've probablydone that a lot with people I've
(24:22):
dated Sure.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I mean we all switch into performative modes with all
of our relationships right.
It's just a very specific one.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, and something that I find really interesting,
julie is very adamant about youdon't tell the boyfriend, and I
think that is kind of like anold school way of kind of
talking about it.
I mean, I definitely do havevery good friends and they have
been with their partners formultiple years and they've not
(24:54):
told them yeah, and that's stillcommon um for me personally.
and you know, I haverelationship, I, I have issues
with relationships.
Sure, I try to be yeah, I dotry to be upfront about it.
It's always kind of thatbalance of like, when do I say
(25:29):
it, you know, or how do I kindof lead in that conversation?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
and often it would, I would just kind of end up
dating clients, um, because theyalready knew what they were
getting into.
Yeah, that's also a commonstory, I think.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah definitely um, but I think at this place in my
life now I've been moving awayfrom doing that just for
different reasons.
But yeah, the the line portionI, I can't do it.
I don't think that you need toor I don't think that I need to
(25:54):
be over descriptive abouteverything.
I think that what's importantis that I regularly get tested
and I know my boundaries and I'mnot like um passing anything to
a partner.
I think like that's bottom line.
You know.
You know we're taught to likeassociate love with possession.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yes, I was just.
I was just going to make thatpoint Exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Exactly so.
It's going to be hard.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah, um, I have dated a number of sex workers.
Um, that have been verymeaningful, loving relationships
.
I similarly hope and want themto talk about it with me.
Yeah, choices about what youtell about your life to who?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, and if you're the type of provider that has
really strict boundaries withclients.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I mean hell yeah.
I mean, it might just be youare getting money and like yeah
of course the feelings are notflowing, you know.
But I know, for me personally,my emotional boundaries are a
little bit porous.
So there is, you know,oftentimes like there's real
stuff involved.
So, whether I want there to beor not, usually I don't but yeah
(27:10):
for me, I have to betransparent about it.
Yeah, also like I want to beable to talk to them about my
day and like exactly, yeah, justkind of skirt around.
Well, I was here for six hours,but I have.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
You know, I've been in so many relationships where
you know you have to rememberall the lies.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Then you're like oh God.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Exactly Such a nightmare.
I get it.
I get where they're coming from, especially with maybe less
queer men than me, with dudesfor whom having a woman is
owning or possessing, and forwomen in that regard too.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
As Julie said, some square from Delaware.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Very, very straight guy from the Midwest.
Yeah, I mean, they usuallycan't handle it, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
We'd like to thank our sponsor, the Squares from
Delaware.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
You know I'd like to thank our sponsor, the Squares
from Delaware.
When you first meet a client,within the first minute he's
going to tell you how he wantsyou to take his money.
You have to just pay attentionand listen and then, if you do
it, if you're listening, he'lljust give it all to you
Interesting and he'll tell youhe wanted me to make him like
(28:27):
eat gum.
And when the guy had came, theguy had came and I like got the
gum.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Because I got the gum and I went to go like I wiped
it on me and I wiped it on him,and I went to go wipe it on his
mouth and he got hesitant andlike was trying to fight me and
I'm like, okay, you know what?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
You look like you're getting a little scared.
Let me back up a little bit.
And then I realized well,you're just playing a game, you
don't want this.
Cause he's like I want you tomake me suck the dick.
So I'm like okay, he's like no,turning back.
I'm like okay, she was like no,I don't think he wants it girl.
I a fantasy.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
It's something that gets them off.
Whatever gets them off,whatever turns them on, it's not
hurting you.
So what if it's?
So what if it's?
Um, no big deal, right?
I mean, it's just a fantasy.
Who cares, right?
Speaker 4 (29:17):
yeah, listen, I'd rather talk about it.
Whatever disgusting littlerandom thoughts are running
through that disgusting man'shead at the moment.
Let's talk about it don't acton it I don't guys talk about
kids and me being money daddy orokay, but at least you're here
with me as an adult, not actingup, not really doing it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
I don't care, it's fun.
And also some crazy stuffsometimes.
Yeah, I said that oh what, I'ma rabbi, I don't have too much.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
A rabbi.
No, now you have to tell thestory.
This guy was Jewish.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
And he wanted to role play and dirty talk and all
kinds of stuff.
And he was saying some wildstuff.
So I took it up a notch and Iwas like, well, how about I just
be the rabbi and I lift yourdick a little bit?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
And he was like, oh hell, no, forgive him, I'm not,
you know, it's just a joke, okay.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
That was a laugh, it's just a joke.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Oh, you took it too far.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Sometimes you Okay, that was a joke, you took it too
far.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
How do you deal with stress at work?
I don't get stressed.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Y'all are so funny Cause like I look at y'all and
y'all are kind of opposite in alot of ways.
You know it's like what, howI've been getting to know Julie
yeah, you're quiet, you wantthings and like you're over here
like wanting to make you knowenergy happen and everything.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
So when I need something crazy, you know where
to go.
Turn it up Brittany, Get itgoing Instigate this shit.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
You're the instigator , I'm just the one that's like
alright, let's throw some extraseed in there.
Stir it up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So y'all help balance each other out.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
That's where the love is a little bit, so y'all help
balance each other outAbsolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
That's where the love is a little bit.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
It's respect, it's more respect, it's always
respect.
Love is always good.
It's all love, but it's respect.
We respect each other.
You need a leash.
I was going to say that and amuzzle, definitely a muzzle.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
A barf, a gag ball?
She'll just keep it like but,you love that about her
sometimes like when we went togo island and we had the little
girl with her, like thisgranddaughter and little girl
screamed when she if she doesn'tget what she wants, so she
(31:55):
started screaming.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
I'm like I want my mom too, but,
Speaker 1 (31:58):
screaming and everything, but the people
started coming around andstalled.
So we're in a lot of placestogether.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
They left me in there and walked out, and I'm still
there and I'm screaming.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And I'm screaming at all the ideas.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
I'm looking for them.
I get outside and I'm likewhere the hell did she go?
And then here goes Kate.
I was like there they go.
No one's yet here on this map.
It was hilarious.
People were like not in thebathroom.
They were like what the hell'sgoing on?
They were like what's going onin there On the bar?
(32:31):
The mothers are laughing.
It was hilarious.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Definitely need a little attention.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I'd love to go to Coney Island with y'all.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
I took the little girl to the haunted house that
was fucking awesome.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I said you shouldn't take her.
Oh my God, she talked aboutthat haunted house, for like
three days she was scared inthere.
It was great.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Did you go to the haunted house at Coney Island?
Great?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I literally just went for the first time today.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Oh, today you went to the zoo there's rabid wild
wolves they're literally closeenough to touch you and they
spit air on you.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
They looked so cool.
I was like dang, I was a littlekid.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
I was like shit myself we didn't even get out of
the car.
She was like oh my, I was alittle kid, I shit myself.
Yeah, we didn't get out thedoor.
She's like oh my grandma, I'mlike you know, wait a second
yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
The thing that I'm curious about is you know Julie
talks about this a lot that it'sjust a fantasy.
It's just a fantasy, right?
You're just giving them a spaceto express that energy as
opposed to engaging it in a moretoxic way.
But I'm curious what you think.
Are you providing a space forthat energy to be dissipated or
expressed or processed, or is asex worker doing that?
(33:51):
I don't want you to speak forall sex workers, but you know,
is it that kind of space, or areyou creating more of a
rehearsal room?
You know, are you creating moreof a practice at that kind of
behavior?
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah, that's something in my experience, I
don't know.
I've heard some providers sayyou know, yes, it kind of in a
way gets it out of their systemso that they don't do this with
unwilling people, and then I'veheard also that it does
(34:24):
encourage them to do this inreal life.
I mean, I'd say my service ispretty vanilla.
Mostly I will get asked to dohumiliation and I did have a lot
of discomfort with that when Ifirst started doing it but um,
why was it uncomfortable for you?
(34:45):
um, I'm just someone I was, youknow, raised to be like very
pleasing and you know I want tomake people feel happy at the
end of the day.
I don't want them to be upsetand, to say it actively, trying
to be upsetting people like thatfeels like wrong in my body.
I don't want to make anyoneupset, but kind of like reading
(35:10):
the experiences of dominatrix,dominatrixes and them kind of
explaining like the humiliationfetish and how their turn like
clients are turned on by that,um, I have like a more like
complex understanding of thatand so I'm more comfortable
(35:34):
doing, you know, humiliatingthem if that's what they want.
I mean, I would personally sayno to race play and this is just
like me.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Sure, of course, yeah , 100%.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I would just say the line is that if you don't feel
comfortable doing it as aprovider, then don't do it.
You're allowed to have your ownopinions and boundaries.
That's right.
That's right.
I don't know like some people.
It's easier for them to kind ofengage in the, in the fetish
and the humiliation or the raceplay or whatever that it is for
(36:11):
them to like.
What I primarily do is do thereal ass like do the like
intimacy.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Let's pretend we're in love.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Let's pretend we're in love.
I'm like um, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Very turned on by what's happening.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Sometimes you know it's just person to person.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Yeah, sure, which segues delightfully into our
next segment.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
She really likes to help people and she tries to
help remedy situations.
You know what I mean.
I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, what's in it for you when you're helping
someone, when I'm makingeverything like trying to run
slower because I can't.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
If it's chaotic and it's running a mess, I get off
balance.
I get making everything liketrying to run slower because I
can't.
If it's chaotic and it'srunning a mess, I get off
balance, I get off track and Iget unfocused.
It's smooth and everything isjust you know.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
But sometimes I try to stop helping these people
because it comes back and youknow what I mean.
I try to stop helping all theseassholes too much.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
So it's the same thing again, right, like it's
this balance that y'all have.
It's.
You know, you want to help, youwant to and you get involved,
maybe.
And then Julie's like hey,listen, you know back off you
know like it's it's a necessary,like balance that y'all have in
terms of your relationship.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Absolutely yeah.
She always looks out for mybest interests.
I have people in my personallife and she's like that person
is no good for you, that personis bad, she's right.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Do y'all talk about your personal lives together?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Absolutely, because she's always got the advice.
It's because she's not thatscary she looks out advice, you
know and it's because shedoesn't.
She's not that scary, she'slooking, she looks after my best
interest.
I really appreciate that.
You know it's not often you getsomebody in your life that's
looking out for your bestinterest you know, really like
unconditionally right there withyou it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
That is a beautiful thing, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
And when julie was kind of going through her health
issues with surgery and whatnot, you were yeah, from the start,
my work ethic, the way I dealwith clients and the magic and
beauty of it she elevated myservice by 100% Because I was
(38:38):
horrible.
Oh my god, if you read my oldreviews, I was bad.
I was bad.
No GFE condoms for handjobs, nokissing.
Straight wham bam.
Do you really want to get thefuck out?
She's put into this industryand the way that she loves it
and she sticks to it andappreciates it, like when she
(39:02):
said things, I'm going to listento her Because she's elite,
she's you know she's going tolast the week.
There's nothing, it's.
I'm going to listen to whatshe's got to say and as I listen
, everything changed.
My start getting better clientsto regulars and long, like
hourly, you know.
(39:23):
Only they only see me like.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
It completely changed everything okay, so julie's
nuggets of wisdom.
So your service and your umclients.
They got better after youstarted listening to Julie, did
you start enjoying your workmore?
You've always enjoyed it, butit's easier now.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
It's easier now.
It just flows after listening.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
And you think that's because of Julie's kind of?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
The notion of Julie warning people not to care too
much for people, of being a sortof like lookout for when people
might be giving too much ofthemselves.
Um, I think it's fair to saythat that has come from a
lifetime experience of juliecaring a lot for people in her
own way, um, as best she can,and so I think you know, as we
have listened to her stories ofsometimes caring too much for
(40:24):
people and how that may have bither to know that she still
cares so much for this person,britney, but wants her to look
out for herself yeah and ifyou're a sex worker, please take
care of yourself, please yeah,I think it's a really beautiful
thing when britney says you know, julie looks out for my best
interests, and it's rare thatyou find someone that's truly
(40:46):
looking after your bestinterests.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, I mean, it just makes me very grateful that you
know, like britney, I have verydear friends that feel like
family to me, who are providers,and it's just like a different
kind of you know, relationshipand bond, that an intimacy that
you're able to have with otherpeople that do the same work as
(41:10):
you.
Though, like your livedexperiences may be very
different, like I'm sureBrittany's and Julie's are,
they're from differentgenerations.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
They're from different generations, they're
from different places.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, doing different things, they still are family
to one another and it's just.
It really shows how likeimportant finding family is in
this industry.
And yeah, julie does care a lot, absolutely, and um is is
looking out for britney andbritney for her, so it was um
(41:46):
beautiful getting to talk tothem yeah, yeah, find your
family.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Madam is produced and co-hosted by M Vaughn and Ben
Skye.
To subscribe to M's newsletterwhere she writes about her
experiences as a sex worker,visit mvaughnme.
That's E-M-V-A-U-G-H-N dot me.
Our show is edited by NateNaxian Ward, our music was
(42:17):
composed by Timothy Reyes and,of course, the star of our show
is the madam herself, julie Moya.
Make sure to follow us onTwitter and support the show by
joining our Patreon atpatreoncom.
Slash, madam pod.
Our patrons will receive theirown print of an original artwork
by Julie herself and get accessto special bonus interviews.
(42:38):
Thanks so much for listening.
We'll see you next time.
you have to be careful and I would never tell a
boyfriend that you know what Imean.
I mean it was that time aboyfriend that she met in that
business maybe or something, andthey know we'd like to have a
great relationship like that,you know.
But but it's just you know,since we're from nowhere, don't
(00:20):
tell them things like that, youyou know why not?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
They'll treat you different.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, they'll treat you different.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi everyone and welcome back to Madam, the
podcast about Julie Moya and NewYork City's most famous.
Bravo, I'm Ben Skye and sittingacross from me, as always, is
the amazing and talented Ms MVaughn.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey y'all.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
So today's episode has been a long time in the
making.
I know you've been working very, very hard on editing it and
putting it together.
We teased a little bit aboutwhat this episode was going to
be about in the previous episodewhen we asked about one of the
people that used to work withJulie a lot, whose name was
Brittany.
Now Brittany attended a coupleof our podcast recording
sessions before.
(01:01):
She has become very close toJulie over the years.
When Julie was having surgeryearlier this year, she was
basically by her bed in thehospital the whole time.
So we thought it would bereally interesting and
informative to bring in and talkto somebody who used to work
with Julie on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
We thought to give a little bit more color to the
podcast.
It would be beneficial for usand our listeners and Julie if
we had someone who is close toher, talking to her and about
her life and what she's like asa person, have been just that,
(01:41):
and we wanted to add moredimension and bring in Brittany,
who's known Julie for a reallylong time and in lots of
different capacities.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, so my first encounter with Julie was when I
went to visit her brothel many,many years ago.
It was one of my firstexperiences going to visit a sex
worker and while I wasn'treally yet an ally and didn't
know very much about the worldof sex work, I do remember
meeting Brittany.
Uh about, uh, gosh, it must havebeen 20 years ago or something
(02:12):
yeah, she's someone you neverforget that's right, and I think
one of the reasons we werereally excited about bringing
her in is that when she attendedsome podcast recording sessions
and tried desperately to sitquietly while we recorded our
conversation with Julie, wewould occasionally look over at
her and we could see her justdesperate to jump in and tell a
(02:36):
story or offer her opinion onwhat Julie was saying or what
the two of you were talkingabout.
She is a very high energyperson.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, yeah, love that .
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Love that too.
With that said, I think it'sreally interesting that when she
first starts out thisconversation, it's her first
time on a podcast and I get it,but she seems very reserved.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, I think she was nervous.
It's hard to have your voicerecorded and I understand that.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
For sure.
Now, one of the reasons thatthis episode has taken so long
to record is that Brittany andJulie have an amazing dynamic.
When I was listening to therecording that we did, they talk
over each other, they finisheach other's sentences, and I
was reminded I'm a lot olderthan you, but I was reminded of
this movie called when Harry MetSally, where they have these
interviews with these oldmarried couples who basically,
(03:27):
you know, sort of aggressivelybut also with love, talk over
each other and never let theother one say what they're
finished saying, but clearlycare for each other so deeply.
Now, unfortunately, that madeit pretty hard to edit, so we
couldn't use some of thatbecause it just sounded like
chaos.
But I know that you've done areally careful job of pulling
(03:48):
that relationship out of what wedid record and I'm really
excited to give people someinsight into that relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And I will just say I dated a Gen Xer who showed me
when Harry met Sally, so I wasaware of the film.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Thank God for that person.
Yeah, yeah, thank God.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So I was aware of the film Thank God for that person.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, thank God .
So without further ado.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Let's get into the lore of Britney.
How has the industry been foryou?
How long have you?
I don't know, I think maybe 22years?
Have you been like NYC based no, seattle.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I worked everywhere Seattle, I started in Seattle,
everywhere.
I love it, yeah.
Yeah, I don't think I want todo anything.
I mean I would love to, butthis is what I.
I like this.
What do you like about it?
The tension, the sex, the money, the community.
You get to meet so manydifferent people.
It's fun.
(04:47):
It's like dating.
Have fun, make money.
Think about it.
They're going to go to a barand spend way more money.
Let's come here, just give methe money.
Let's just have a tour.
There's been times where it wasrough, but it's always have
enough to order to get to.
I mean, there's been timeswhere it was rough, but it's
always been good to me.
(05:09):
Overall, I don't think I've hada lot of bad things.
The good outweighs the bad abit.
It's fun, it's exciting.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
What do you think when you hear her say that it's?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
good, I mean I'm happy for her.
Yeah, I mean because some girlsdon't have that kind of like
outlook.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
So you know, I might sometimes be addicted to it too.
Yeah, yeah Can you say moreabout that.
It's also like dependable.
It's always there, you know,even no matter what, say I'm
messed up with something all mylife and I have nothing.
I just go stick out my thumband you know start from there or
(05:54):
something.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Is that something that you like about the industry
or something it's kind?
Speaker 4 (05:58):
of comfortability with me.
I love everything about theindustry, except for, you know,
I mean, I can't even say that Ilove everything about it, even
the roughs and ups and downs andthe drama and the twists and
turns, and the slow days, thefun days, the chaotic days, but
it's fun especially.
You know I've been had, I'vebeen blessed to, you know, be
(06:21):
here with around, like beworking with Julie, working with
other places and being in aplace like Ben's, you know,
people meeting people.
It's just been really great.
I would.
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
This first part of the interview is, in a way, one
of the more interesting parts ofthe interview to me and, I
guess, one of the things I wantto ask you, because you work in
sex work do you love theindustry?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Do.
I love the industry.
I mean, I can only speak to myexperience.
And when we're talking aboutthe sex industry in general,
it's kind of hard because thatis so, uh, complex.
You know absolutely.
And britney, like she said, youknow over two decades in the
industry she's done a lot yeahyou know, so she knows better
(07:18):
way better than me, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
But do you love it?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But do you?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
love it.
Well, I guess, to not ask quiteas glib of a question, how do
you feel about your relationshipwith the sex industry?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
My relationship to it is pretty good.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I don't know that's so complicated it is yeah, I
guess here's what I'm getting at, I think In our first episode,
I think one of the things peoplereally were attracted to was
how we spoke about the sexindustry.
Our admiration for the peoplewho do it which remains, of
course, part of the process ofdoing this podcast has led me to
(08:02):
have some perhaps more in-depthconversations with a lot of my
friends who are sex workers, and, while my admiration remains, I
think that, for one reason oranother, people have started to
feel more comfortable expressingtheir complicated relationship
with the industry and the work,and it's something that you and
Julie touch on a little bitright, and I guess it's
something that, as I waslistening to this, I wondered if
(08:25):
I was giving, if we were givingrepresentation the difficult
part of the sex industry.
You know, to uh to how hard itcan be to do the work you know?
Um, yeah, you know the twistsand turns and ups and downs, as
Brittany calls it, but I thinkit's fair to say it can often be
a little bit more than that Alot of people doing it, even if
(08:51):
they have a very positive,healthy, which I believe I know
you do.
Um, yeah, I'm in awe of itoften, you know, but the work is
hard, as you said before.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
you know, work can be hard yeah, the work is hard, I
mean, but I also feel like lifeis hard sure, yeah, no, of
course that's not easy being acoal miner either, right?
yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah Imean, and and yes, like sex work
has its own like caveats andcomplications that a lot of
(09:14):
other professions you know don'thave.
Um, you know, for one thing,the stigma, the criminality
around it are just two of thebigger issues.
I mean, I can see it fromBrittany's perspective.
I've had a really blessedjourney with being in the
(09:35):
industry and there is theattention and the money part.
There are, I guess, glamorousaspects of it.
I wouldn't say it's definitelynot a glamorous profession, but
there can be like glamorousaspects to it.
For some people, you know, somepeople, it's not that at all.
You know, it's just a means toget by for a lot of people
(09:59):
actually.
But for me it's become myprofession and I don't know I
have a complicated relationshipwith that, but at the end of the
day it allows me to do thingsin my life that I think that I
would not be able to otherwise,just because of the way that
(10:21):
workforce is structured undercapitalism.
Because of the way thatworkforce is structured under
capitalism, to have, you know, alot of autonomy in my day to
day life is not something thatmost people get to have and I
feel very blessed about it andit's enabled me to figure out
what I actually want to do withmy life that is not influenced
by the workforce.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's why I called it one ofthe few.
What do they call it?
The renegade act or whateverrebellion act?
One of the few remaining actsof rebellion?
Something like that.
Yeah, yeah, radical.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, a few radical acts, yeah, yeah, yeah,
definitely.
But I don't have to feed intothis Western idea of what life
is supposed to look like.
Right, I can actually live lifein a more organic way and
figure out my dreams from there,and that's exactly what I've
(11:17):
done.
And the other part, too, isthat I didn't necessarily know
going into it, but I know now.
I like to make people feel good.
I like to, if it is possiblefor me, to, help someone with an
issue or help heal them to somecapacity.
Um, you know, physically ormentally, I, I really do love
(11:37):
that aspect of sex work.
You know it a lot of times itisn't that, you know, like it's
just transaction and semen on myclothes and hair.
But you know, sometimes it isthis really really beautiful
bond that I get to have withsomeone and I get to help them,
(12:02):
and that feels really good andget paid well for it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I often think about sex workers partially in the
same regard, uh, as socialworkers, right, um, which isn't
that they are asked to sometimescarry, carry someone's trauma
around sex.
And the Lord knows, in uhChristian fucking America, there
was a lot of trauma around sex.
Obviously, you are wise andstrong and intuitive when it
(12:35):
comes to humans.
But I guess what I want to copto is is initially, in those
first episodes, only seeing theadmirable, radical, empowered
act which it is, but maybe notmaking room for some of the
experiences that people have tohave on a day-to-day basis.
(12:55):
Yeah, absolutely you know.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
So it's like you got different girls from different
walks of life, different aspects.
I have no idea what they'redoing, and then they're usually
influenced because of how theystarted doing this from being
influenced for social media, Iwould not tell the boyfriend
nothing, it was no one'sbusiness.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
you, you know, I would say I was doing something
else, whether it be a phoneperson somewhere or whatever I
was doing right.
But these girls they get caughtlike on purpose.
You have to be careful and Iwould never tell a boyfriend
that you know what I?
mean, I mean, unless it was thattime a boyfriend that you met
in that business, maybe orsomething.
And they know, when you guyshave a great relationship like
(13:47):
that, you know.
But if it's just you know somesquare from nowhere you don't
tell them things like that.
You know why not they'll treatyou different.
Yeah, they'll treat youdifferent.
A lot of them have differentbeliefs and different you know.
They'll be like oh wow, she'sfucking some other guy.
They don't realize it's justfor business.
Even my grandson is like she'sfucking some other guy.
(14:07):
They don't realize it's justfor business.
Even my grandson is like oh, myGod, that's horrible.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Oh, my goodness, yeah .
So is that how you feel as well, brittany?
Like in relationships you don't.
I don't tell them.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
You tell them I don't tell them what I do, I just
tell them I do whatever it takes.
Let them think what they want.
I could be a stripper, I couldbe a bartender.
I'm not going to discuss what Ido with other men, with
somebody I have love interestwith and I don't even.
I'm tired of relationships,right, it's too much.
I have to focus on work and theclients because the boyfriend
just gets in the way.
(14:43):
Energy, drama, tears, can'tfind the things.
I miss it, but I'm good.
Why would I go outside and doit for free when I can go to
work and do it for money andhave fun?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
It's just I don't know.
It's weird.
Some of them just don't get it.
It's not just laying therefucking.
I just ask them what would youlike me to do while we're in
here?
And I just take direction fromhim.
I'm like that's not what it is.
You know, you can't just dothat.
That's just very boring.
Right, and that's not like it'snot interacting really, yeah,
(15:20):
yeah, it's just you know beinglike at his service.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
And they want to know you're having fun too.
And at the beginning of thissegment, brittany talks about
social influencers and I don'tknow.
I think that it's justsomething that again, because
I'm old, that maybe I don'tquite understand what she's
getting at as far as how that Idon't know may affect the
relationship with the industry.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
I just wonder if you can offer a little more insight,
at least for me, but maybe forour listeners.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I think Brittany was saying how I guess social media
has negatively well in somecases negatively impacted the
sex work industry.
It's complicated, obviously,but basically there's sex work
social media influencers ormaybe they're not explicitly
(16:23):
calling themselves that, butthere's Sugar Baby Influencers,
that sort of thing, and it'slike day in the life of a Sugar
Baby, day in the life of astripper.
I personally, I got reallyhooked on strip talk during the
pandemic.
I loved watching girls talkabout what they were wearing
(16:45):
going to the club, how muchmoney they would make an hour.
Some of them were real about it, but I would say a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
I mean, it is glamour , it's glamorization they're
showing the good stuff, justwhat we were talking about
before, right.
Yeah like the YSL bags and thebracelets and the red bottoms
and this luxurious life, thething that social media always
(17:14):
does Right Perfect hair, perfectskin, perfect body.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
And yeah, I mean yes, what social media does is, yeah
, glamorize things and andthat's particularly harmful in
sex work and I think that's kindof what I interpret as
britney's saying is, it's notthat, um, you know, because
social media can be a greatplatform for providers to make
(17:41):
money and get clients.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean I don't think.
I think this sex industry haschanged so much because of you
all being able to connect witheach other now.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, that's what has changed it from what it was
like when Julie came into it,right?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right, exactly, but it can be dangerous.
Like you come into thisindustry thinking that maybe
it's going to be a littletrauma-free, that I think
there's this idea, that I thinkwhat Brittany is saying is that,
with social media influencersin this way, portray it as it's
(18:18):
something that you don't reallyhave to work hard at, that you
don't really have to, that guyswill just kind of give you free
money and give you free tripsand give you free bags, and I
mean, if you look at femdoms,that is something that exists.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like a lot of them are probably
bragging a lot too right, likethat all feels a little like a
constructive image a lot of thetime when I you know run across
their accounts.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Definitely yeah, and I remember I was sitting in like
a sex worker support group.
We have like community meetingsonce a month here and this
older woman who'd been a sexworker over 10 years done a lot
of things she was talking aboutthis and she was like sometimes
you just got to suck a dick.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I mean not in a.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
No one should force you to suck a dick.
No, no, but in this context.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
It's like I got paid you gotta fucking babe like you,
maybe you could luck intosomething, yeah, but even that
it's, you're dealing with very,very toxic men, very toxic men,
very toxic people and theirrelationships, their lives,
you're.
I mean, you're playing withsome really hard shit.
(19:34):
And if you think that sex workis easy or you just are going to
get some free money, maybe hereand there but that's also has
to do with privilege and rightplace, right time, it's yeah,
you're going to have to work.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah, hey, here you are with a platform, you
crazy influencer, but uh, but Iguess what do you wish they were
talking about?
Um, that maybe would present amore realistic viewpoint of the
industry.
I mean it's because perhaps I'mlike it is more than just
sucking it.
I think it's encountering thesepeople that often that you're
(20:14):
talking about, you know, toxicmales, or I mean, or traumatized
male, or you know.
You know, what do you wish theywere talking about?
With regards to why it's notall Gucci bags, you know?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I mean well cause Gucci bags.
Do not fill your spiritual void.
Yeah, it is a 24 sevenprofession.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It is a 24 seven thing being a sex worker, um,
because because of the stigmaand criminality around it,
you're always having to kind ofwatch your back.
Um, you know, what are yougoing to do about your family,
people that you're connectedwith, things like that?
How is this going to affectyour future?
And also, yeah, I mean kind ofbeing in danger and and there's
(21:06):
no, if you do kind of findyourself in a whole situation
with the client, I mean there'snot much you can do legally.
There's just a lot of thingsthat can go wrong and a lot of
that that do go wrong for somepeople.
(21:27):
But yeah, and then also, likeyou're having having to
aesthetically, uh, kind of um,manipulate your body a lot.
I guess I should speak from myown experience, because there's
a lot of providers that they'resure they're like I don't fuck
with my yeah, yeah, any of mybody hair, like I'm not changing
(21:49):
any of myself Like clients arejust going to come to me as the,
which I really appreciate.
But I guess in my line of workit's it's having to keep up with
my mental state constantly, butalso like my physical state,
always having to think about mybody, what I look like, how I'm
being perceived, what I smelllike like, who I'm talking to
(22:11):
and am I, am I saying like, Ifeel like I live like four
different lives.
You know, and you know, part ofthat's like my decision, but it
is something that's I feel isall consuming.
And then the whole relationshippart, yeah, I all-consuming.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
And then the whole relationship part.
Yeah, I was gonna say, um, Iyou know gucci bags don't fill
your spiritual void, buttheoretically, love should right
, um, and one of the thingsyou're asked to do is, uh,
performatively love right or um,uh convince people.
I mean, which I know, at leastfrom some of the stuff that
you've told me and others havetold me sometimes there is real
intimacy there, but I also knowthat a lot of sex workers who
(22:56):
are friends of mine have verycomplicated relationships with
love and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And I think that that dovetails really nicely into
the next thing they were talkingabout.
And Brittany said somethingthat I've heard from so many sex
workers Uh, I don't even wantto bother with relationships
anymore.
It's just too much, you know.
Yeah, but then what is yourrelationship with love in
general?
Right, Right.
Yeah, yeah, I can likeproviders.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
They can say you know , I don't even want to bother
with relationships,relationships and then also
clients.
They seek providers becausethey don't want to, absolutely,
absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean the motives areare different on each side, but,
um, definitely I've had periodswhere I've felt just like
britney.
It's like why the hell would Igo meet some random dude on a
dating app and hook up with himfor free Excuse me, have bad sex
, when I could just get paid forthat?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
You know, has that performative aspect ever like
complicated relationship for you, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, I think so and I've I've talked to other
workers about this where they'relike they don't mean to do it,
but sometimes you know peoplewho they're dating can tell of
like, oh okay, you just switchedinto worker mode.
You know, and I've probablydone that a lot with people I've
(24:22):
dated Sure.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I mean we all switch into performative modes with all
of our relationships right.
It's just a very specific one.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, and something that I find really interesting,
julie is very adamant about youdon't tell the boyfriend, and I
think that is kind of like anold school way of kind of
talking about it.
I mean, I definitely do havevery good friends and they have
been with their partners formultiple years and they've not
(24:54):
told them yeah, and that's stillcommon um for me personally.
and you know, I haverelationship, I, I have issues
with relationships.
Sure, I try to be yeah, I dotry to be upfront about it.
It's always kind of thatbalance of like, when do I say
(25:29):
it, you know, or how do I kindof lead in that conversation?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
and often it would, I would just kind of end up
dating clients, um, because theyalready knew what they were
getting into.
Yeah, that's also a commonstory, I think.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah definitely um, but I think at this place in my
life now I've been moving awayfrom doing that just for
different reasons.
But yeah, the the line portionI, I can't do it.
I don't think that you need toor I don't think that I need to
(25:54):
be over descriptive abouteverything.
I think that what's importantis that I regularly get tested
and I know my boundaries and I'mnot like um passing anything to
a partner.
I think like that's bottom line.
You know.
You know we're taught to likeassociate love with possession.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yes, I was just.
I was just going to make thatpoint Exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Exactly so.
It's going to be hard.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah, um, I have dated a number of sex workers.
Um, that have been verymeaningful, loving relationships
.
I similarly hope and want themto talk about it with me.
Yeah, choices about what youtell about your life to who?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, and if you're the type of provider that has
really strict boundaries withclients.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I mean hell yeah.
I mean, it might just be youare getting money and like yeah
of course the feelings are notflowing, you know.
But I know, for me personally,my emotional boundaries are a
little bit porous.
So there is, you know,oftentimes like there's real
stuff involved.
So, whether I want there to beor not, usually I don't but yeah
(27:10):
for me, I have to betransparent about it.
Yeah, also like I want to beable to talk to them about my
day and like exactly, yeah, justkind of skirt around.
Well, I was here for six hours,but I have.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
You know, I've been in so many relationships where
you know you have to rememberall the lies.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Then you're like oh God.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Exactly Such a nightmare.
I get it.
I get where they're coming from, especially with maybe less
queer men than me, with dudesfor whom having a woman is
owning or possessing, and forwomen in that regard too.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
As Julie said, some square from Delaware.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Very, very straight guy from the Midwest.
Yeah, I mean, they usuallycan't handle it, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
We'd like to thank our sponsor, the Squares from
Delaware.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
You know I'd like to thank our sponsor, the Squares
from Delaware.
When you first meet a client,within the first minute he's
going to tell you how he wantsyou to take his money.
You have to just pay attentionand listen and then, if you do
it, if you're listening, he'lljust give it all to you
Interesting and he'll tell youhe wanted me to make him like
(28:27):
eat gum.
And when the guy had came, theguy had came and I like got the
gum.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Because I got the gum and I went to go like I wiped
it on me and I wiped it on him,and I went to go wipe it on his
mouth and he got hesitant andlike was trying to fight me and
I'm like, okay, you know what?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
You look like you're getting a little scared.
Let me back up a little bit.
And then I realized well,you're just playing a game, you
don't want this.
Cause he's like I want you tomake me suck the dick.
So I'm like okay, he's like no,turning back.
I'm like okay, she was like no,I don't think he wants it girl.
I a fantasy.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
It's something that gets them off.
Whatever gets them off,whatever turns them on, it's not
hurting you.
So what if it's?
So what if it's?
Um, no big deal, right?
I mean, it's just a fantasy.
Who cares, right?
Speaker 4 (29:17):
yeah, listen, I'd rather talk about it.
Whatever disgusting littlerandom thoughts are running
through that disgusting man'shead at the moment.
Let's talk about it don't acton it I don't guys talk about
kids and me being money daddy orokay, but at least you're here
with me as an adult, not actingup, not really doing it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
I don't care, it's fun.
And also some crazy stuffsometimes.
Yeah, I said that oh what, I'ma rabbi, I don't have too much.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
A rabbi.
No, now you have to tell thestory.
This guy was Jewish.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
And he wanted to role play and dirty talk and all
kinds of stuff.
And he was saying some wildstuff.
So I took it up a notch and Iwas like, well, how about I just
be the rabbi and I lift yourdick a little bit?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
And he was like, oh hell, no, forgive him, I'm not,
you know, it's just a joke, okay.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
That was a laugh, it's just a joke.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Oh, you took it too far.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Sometimes you Okay, that was a joke, you took it too
far.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
How do you deal with stress at work?
I don't get stressed.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Y'all are so funny Cause like I look at y'all and
y'all are kind of opposite in alot of ways.
You know it's like what, howI've been getting to know Julie
yeah, you're quiet, you wantthings and like you're over here
like wanting to make you knowenergy happen and everything.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
So when I need something crazy, you know where
to go.
Turn it up Brittany, Get itgoing Instigate this shit.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
You're the instigator , I'm just the one that's like
alright, let's throw some extraseed in there.
Stir it up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So y'all help balance each other out.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
That's where the love is a little bit, so y'all help
balance each other outAbsolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
That's where the love is a little bit.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
It's respect, it's more respect, it's always
respect.
Love is always good.
It's all love, but it's respect.
We respect each other.
You need a leash.
I was going to say that and amuzzle, definitely a muzzle.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
A barf, a gag ball?
She'll just keep it like but,you love that about her
sometimes like when we went togo island and we had the little
girl with her, like thisgranddaughter and little girl
screamed when she if she doesn'tget what she wants, so she
(31:55):
started screaming.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
I'm like I want my mom too, but,
Speaker 1 (31:58):
screaming and everything, but the people
started coming around andstalled.
So we're in a lot of placestogether.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
They left me in there and walked out, and I'm still
there and I'm screaming.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And I'm screaming at all the ideas.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
I'm looking for them.
I get outside and I'm likewhere the hell did she go?
And then here goes Kate.
I was like there they go.
No one's yet here on this map.
It was hilarious.
People were like not in thebathroom.
They were like what the hell'sgoing on?
They were like what's going onin there On the bar?
(32:31):
The mothers are laughing.
It was hilarious.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Definitely need a little attention.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I'd love to go to Coney Island with y'all.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
I took the little girl to the haunted house that
was fucking awesome.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I said you shouldn't take her.
Oh my God, she talked aboutthat haunted house, for like
three days she was scared inthere.
It was great.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Did you go to the haunted house at Coney Island?
Great?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I literally just went for the first time today.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Oh, today you went to the zoo there's rabid wild
wolves they're literally closeenough to touch you and they
spit air on you.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
They looked so cool.
I was like dang, I was a littlekid.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
I was like shit myself we didn't even get out of
the car.
She was like oh my, I was alittle kid, I shit myself.
Yeah, we didn't get out thedoor.
She's like oh my grandma, I'mlike you know, wait a second
yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
The thing that I'm curious about is you know Julie
talks about this a lot that it'sjust a fantasy.
It's just a fantasy, right?
You're just giving them a spaceto express that energy as
opposed to engaging it in a moretoxic way.
But I'm curious what you think.
Are you providing a space forthat energy to be dissipated or
expressed or processed, or is asex worker doing that?
(33:51):
I don't want you to speak forall sex workers, but you know,
is it that kind of space, or areyou creating more of a
rehearsal room?
You know, are you creating moreof a practice at that kind of
behavior?
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah, that's something in my experience, I
don't know.
I've heard some providers sayyou know, yes, it kind of in a
way gets it out of their systemso that they don't do this with
unwilling people, and then I'veheard also that it does
(34:24):
encourage them to do this inreal life.
I mean, I'd say my service ispretty vanilla.
Mostly I will get asked to dohumiliation and I did have a lot
of discomfort with that when Ifirst started doing it but um,
why was it uncomfortable for you?
(34:45):
um, I'm just someone I was, youknow, raised to be like very
pleasing and you know I want tomake people feel happy at the
end of the day.
I don't want them to be upsetand, to say it actively, trying
to be upsetting people like thatfeels like wrong in my body.
I don't want to make anyoneupset, but kind of like reading
(35:10):
the experiences of dominatrix,dominatrixes and them kind of
explaining like the humiliationfetish and how their turn like
clients are turned on by that,um, I have like a more like
complex understanding of thatand so I'm more comfortable
(35:34):
doing, you know, humiliatingthem if that's what they want.
I mean, I would personally sayno to race play and this is just
like me.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Sure, of course, yeah , 100%.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I would just say the line is that if you don't feel
comfortable doing it as aprovider, then don't do it.
You're allowed to have your ownopinions and boundaries.
That's right.
That's right.
I don't know like some people.
It's easier for them to kind ofengage in the, in the fetish
and the humiliation or the raceplay or whatever that it is for
(36:11):
them to like.
What I primarily do is do thereal ass like do the like
intimacy.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Let's pretend we're in love.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Let's pretend we're in love.
I'm like um, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Very turned on by what's happening.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Sometimes you know it's just person to person.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Yeah, sure, which segues delightfully into our
next segment.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
She really likes to help people and she tries to
help remedy situations.
You know what I mean.
I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, what's in it for you when you're helping
someone, when I'm makingeverything like trying to run
slower because I can't.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
If it's chaotic and it's running a mess, I get off
balance.
I get making everything liketrying to run slower because I
can't.
If it's chaotic and it'srunning a mess, I get off
balance, I get off track and Iget unfocused.
It's smooth and everything isjust you know.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
But sometimes I try to stop helping these people
because it comes back and youknow what I mean.
I try to stop helping all theseassholes too much.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
So it's the same thing again, right, like it's
this balance that y'all have.
It's.
You know, you want to help, youwant to and you get involved,
maybe.
And then Julie's like hey,listen, you know back off you
know like it's it's a necessary,like balance that y'all have in
terms of your relationship.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Absolutely yeah.
She always looks out for mybest interests.
I have people in my personallife and she's like that person
is no good for you, that personis bad, she's right.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Do y'all talk about your personal lives together?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Absolutely, because she's always got the advice.
It's because she's not thatscary she looks out advice, you
know and it's because shedoesn't.
She's not that scary, she'slooking, she looks after my best
interest.
I really appreciate that.
You know it's not often you getsomebody in your life that's
looking out for your bestinterest you know, really like
unconditionally right there withyou it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
That is a beautiful thing, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
And when julie was kind of going through her health
issues with surgery and whatnot, you were yeah, from the start,
my work ethic, the way I dealwith clients and the magic and
beauty of it she elevated myservice by 100% Because I was
(38:38):
horrible.
Oh my god, if you read my oldreviews, I was bad.
I was bad.
No GFE condoms for handjobs, nokissing.
Straight wham bam.
Do you really want to get thefuck out?
She's put into this industryand the way that she loves it
and she sticks to it andappreciates it, like when she
(39:02):
said things, I'm going to listento her Because she's elite,
she's you know she's going tolast the week.
There's nothing, it's.
I'm going to listen to whatshe's got to say and as I listen
, everything changed.
My start getting better clientsto regulars and long, like
hourly, you know.
(39:23):
Only they only see me like.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
It completely changed everything okay, so julie's
nuggets of wisdom.
So your service and your umclients.
They got better after youstarted listening to Julie, did
you start enjoying your workmore?
You've always enjoyed it, butit's easier now.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
It's easier now.
It just flows after listening.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
And you think that's because of Julie's kind of?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
The notion of Julie warning people not to care too
much for people, of being a sortof like lookout for when people
might be giving too much ofthemselves.
Um, I think it's fair to saythat that has come from a
lifetime experience of juliecaring a lot for people in her
own way, um, as best she can,and so I think you know, as we
have listened to her stories ofsometimes caring too much for
(40:24):
people and how that may have bither to know that she still
cares so much for this person,britney, but wants her to look
out for herself yeah and ifyou're a sex worker, please take
care of yourself, please yeah,I think it's a really beautiful
thing when britney says you know, julie looks out for my best
interests, and it's rare thatyou find someone that's truly
(40:46):
looking after your bestinterests.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, I mean, it just makes me very grateful that you
know, like britney, I have verydear friends that feel like
family to me, who are providers,and it's just like a different
kind of you know, relationshipand bond, that an intimacy that
you're able to have with otherpeople that do the same work as
(41:10):
you.
Though, like your livedexperiences may be very
different, like I'm sureBrittany's and Julie's are,
they're from differentgenerations.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
They're from different generations, they're
from different places.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, doing different things, they still are family
to one another and it's just.
It really shows how likeimportant finding family is in
this industry.
And yeah, julie does care a lot, absolutely, and um is is
looking out for britney andbritney for her, so it was um
(41:46):
beautiful getting to talk tothem yeah, yeah, find your
family.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Madam is produced and co-hosted by M Vaughn and Ben
Skye.
To subscribe to M's newsletterwhere she writes about her
experiences as a sex worker,visit mvaughnme.
That's E-M-V-A-U-G-H-N dot me.
Our show is edited by NateNaxian Ward, our music was
(42:17):
composed by Timothy Reyes and,of course, the star of our show
is the madam herself, julie Moya.
Make sure to follow us onTwitter and support the show by
joining our Patreon atpatreoncom.
Slash, madam pod.
Our patrons will receive theirown print of an original artwork
by Julie herself and get accessto special bonus interviews.
(42:38):
Thanks so much for listening.
We'll see you next time.
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