August 6, 2025 • 26 mins
Is it a demon lurking in the woods behind Holly's home? Does it feed off the negative energy of her dad and her arguing? And actually, what even IS a demon, anyway? As always, stick around after the story for a spectral analysis from the Madame about this haunting and some spooky history about the origins of demons as we know them.
Thank you to Holly for granting permission to read their story. Remember, Strangers & Strangelings & Strangecetera: you can feel afraid and not be in danger.
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Produced by: Madame Strangeways
♫ Theme Music by: Marina Ryan at marinamakes.co
Cover artwork by: Andrea Giselle Roldán at @cultofteddy
Every true strange story narrated in this podcast was read with permission from the original author.
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(00:01):
Oh, I didn't hear you come in. What's that?
You've got a true strange story of the unexplained you'd like to
hear narrated on the show. E-mail it to me
madamstrangeways@gmail.com Welcome strangers to Madam
Strangeways, where I, Madam Strangeways, narrate your true
(00:24):
strange stories of the unexplained and.
As always, solicited. Or not, Usually not.
I share my strange thoughts and observations and drag you down
a. Slew of.
Strange rabbit holes, kicking and screaming if absolutely
necessary. Today I've got one new spine
(00:45):
tingling true strange story for you, but first the.
Strangest of shout outs to my. Patreon Patrons TJ Hotter, G Mad
Music, Ted Keith and Tori. Thank you SO.
Much to my. Feral fiendish. 5 For supporting
the show Do you want to hear your name?
At the beginning of every episode.
(01:06):
Or how about an exclusive sticker?
Or even access to Madam Strange notes.
AKA. Strange bonus content Join the
Patreon today at madamstrangeways.com or
patreon.com/madam Strange Ways And now on to our true strange
story here on Madam Strange Ways.
(01:53):
Experience with my dad that I still have nightmares about 25
years later. By Holly.
This happened circa 1998. I was about 13.
We lived next to a fenced and heavily wooded area behind one
of our local YMCA's. Being that we lived in a large
(02:14):
city, there was a ton of crime and a few bodies had been found
in these woods over the years. We had an extremely religious
Christian neighbor that my dad was close with as they were both
single parents. She told my dad that there was a
demon that lived in these woods.As a result of negative energy
from all the violence those woods had seen.
(02:38):
I wasn't allowed to go back there but I still would.
Never at night though and the few times I did I would hear
footsteps behind me or feel complete dread the whole way
home as I only used them as a shortcut to walk home sometimes
from a friend's house. I know this sounds silly, but
(03:01):
even in a lit up city. Those woods were.
So dark. I get that.
Woods are supposed. To be dark.
And what a stupid thing to say, but this was a different kind
of. Darkness.
I don't. Know how to describe it except
for saying they just felt evil. Anyhow, 1998, thirteen years
(03:24):
old. I didn't have the easiest
upbringing. My dad was in a constant state
of anxiety. We were poor.
My dad always owed money to somebody and my brother and I
were pretty much neglected, as all teens in the 90s seem to
have been. I love my dad very much, but
there was always some kind of negativity or hardship in his
(03:48):
life, which in turn was reflected onto my brother and me
because we lived with him. My mom moved out of state when I
was 10. There was literally no solace
and I lived a stone's throw awayfrom these woods.
It first started with the reoccurring nightmares.
A blackness would seep out of the woods like fog.
(04:10):
I could never get away fast enough.
It would envelope me and drag meinto the woods.
I had this dream every night formonths.
My dad was convinced we were under attack whereas I thought
it was just him and the neighborfreaking me out with their
(04:30):
theories. One night we were sitting in the
driveway and my dad's beat up old Volvo.
We were having an argument. I don't even remember what it
was about now, but we were goingback and forth just being nasty
to one another and I'll never forget it.
My dad said every time we do this we just feed this thing
(04:52):
that lives out in the woods. I laughed at him.
I remember saying something to belittle him, just can't
remember word for word. But it was something that pretty
much made fun of him. And the thing in the woods.
At that very minute, something started beating on the trunk of
the car. It felt like.
(05:14):
Two fists coming down on the trunk, over and over.
We both screamed. It got louder and harder at that
moment. I threw my.
Arms around my dad and I said. I love.
You, I'm sorry. And he said the same, almost
like a chant it became. And as we said the words to one
(05:36):
another, the blows to the trunk became softer and lesser until
they disappeared all together and we were both in tears.
Later, when he inspected the car, there were dents that
looked. Like fists.
(05:56):
On the back of his trunk. I know the car was already
beaten up to hell, but those were not there before.
My dad has since passed away, but even if he were alive he
would never talk about this. The few times I tried to bring
it up over the years, he shut the conversation down just as
(06:20):
fast as it was mentioned. We moved shortly after that.
I still believe in my heart and soul that those woods have
something evil living in them and I live 3 miles away from
them now sometimes. I feel curious.
Enough to try to go back and record to catch something, but
(06:45):
then again, I'm so terrified to even think about walking into
those woods at night. Holly, thank you so much for.
Sharing. Your horrifying story with me
(07:07):
and allowing me to share it on the show, although it was
horrifying also, it kind of did like bring your dad and you back
together. At least I don't know long term
question mark, but at the time at least it kind of helped you
guys see eye to. Eye.
Because of the fear that you had.
Very, very scary, but also kind of sweet.
(07:28):
So was it a demon? Do demons bring people together,
you know, is or is the demon in the forest like shaking their
fists? Like, damn you.
No, The power of love, that's myone weakness.
You know, we'll never know. So I have a lot of thoughts
about demons, which I want to get into in a second.
(07:49):
But before I get there. Something.
That jumped out at me was the the trunk of the car, how it had
like fist indentation marks on it.
You know, that's really scary. What does that especially what
does that while you're arguing in the car, like, come on, read
the room, read the room. We're busy.
So I don't know if anyone out there has an idea of what could
(08:12):
have been pounding on the trunk of the car while they were
arguing inside of it. Let me know.
Also, the timing. That was really SUS.
That was really SUS. That's the timing.
Anyway. Let me know if you think, you
know, what could have caused that.
What, like what? What wildlife could have been
banging on the trunk of the car like that?
Let me know Madam strangeways@gmail.com Right?
(08:33):
So let's. Get into demons.
If you've OK, listen, if you've listened to the show before,
which I hope you have. If not, welcome.
Welcome. To Madam.
Strange ways. If you've listened before, you
may know that I feel a certain way about demons and the people
spreading demon propaganda and demon mongering, if you will,
(08:55):
for lack of a better term. So part of what I do this
podcast for is to undo some of that fear and anxiety for you in
the event that you do happen to get really scared of the thought
of a demonic presence out to getyou.
Or if demons really freak you out and they keep you up at
night after you've watched a scary movie and there's demons
(09:16):
and you're thinking, well, gosh,demons are everywhere.
They're invisible and they couldbe anywhere at any time.
Oh my God, like, and if that stresses you out, I feel you.
I get you because that used to be me.
That used to be me. And I'm not going.
To lie sometimes that is still me.
All right. So it's it's I'm in remission.
(09:39):
I am a recovering demon, scaredycat, all right.
But what helped me and what I hope also helps you is
researching to really understand, like, what is a
demon though actually, like, what is a demon?
So like for me, OK, when I was akid, you know, and I believed in
demons because I was told to believe in demons.
(10:02):
So for me as a kid, you know, listen, I didn't really
understand what demons were. I just knew they were really
scary. So even though I, I knew quote
UN quote that they were real andI knew that they could even be
in my bedroom at night and like lurking and watching me sleep, I
understood that. But what I kind of just accepted
was that like, well, hell is real.
(10:23):
Obviously. Satan's real, obviously.
And Satan is the demon king, andthe demons do his bidding, and
they're real. And they're actively trying to
harm me or my family or my lovedones in the pursuit of, I don't
know, demonic Glee. Is this like Monsters, Inc?
(10:46):
Is that the plot for Monsters Inc?
Except then the demons don't eventually figure out that
laughter gets them more demon juice?
I don't know. But what I couldn't have told
you as a child was what a demon actually was.
Like, maybe I maybe I would havesaid that like, evil spirit,
they were OK. Maybe I would have said that
like, demons were evil spirits sent by Satan.
(11:09):
But like, what does that mean? You know, I, I think I just
assumed that demons had been around forever plaguing
humanity. I mean, honestly, I don't know,
man. Because looking back, I sure
didn't ask myself any of these questions.
Not a single one of them. And I bet that there's a lot of
people who also haven't asked themselves these questions
either. So let's do it.
(11:31):
Let's ask what are demons? So when you hear the word.
Demon you could. Be picturing Lucifer and
Asmodeus if you're a Supernatural fan, for instance,
or Pizuzu if you've seen The Exorcist, or Baphomet if you
follow the Satanic Temple, or Mephistopheles if you're a fan
(11:52):
of the musical Cats. Oh no, that's, that's Mr.
Mustophiles. That's not mephistophiles, you
see. OK, anyway, there's Valic, if
you've seen The Conjuring, though he wasn't a nun.
There's Lilith, the first wife of Adam, who was painted as a
(12:13):
demon for wanting and achieving agency over her own body
directly in defiance of God. And she's actually in a ton of
modern media, from Supernatural to Evangelion.
To True Blood. And has been hotel so she's a
very popular demon. Demons in general are very
popular in modern media. Yeah.
So basically, you're probably picturing A malevolent,
(12:34):
intelligent agent of chaos who is hell bent on causing human
suffering. Now, some of us may be picturing
A malevolent, intelligent agent of chaos who is also very
attractive and charismatic. Let's put that to the side.
Let's unpack that on another day.
(12:54):
All right, let's come back to that later in another episode.
For now, Scary. OK, scary bad.
Not scary good. You're probably picturing that a
demon's soul motivation is causing harm or even possibly
death if the demon ends up possessing someone, which is a
thing that demons can do. So, in a nutshell, when you
(13:18):
think of demons, you may find yourself afraid of something.
You're just not sure exactly what, only that it would be bad.
For instance, going out into thescary dark forest outside of
Holly's home. Maybe you'll come back out
alive. Maybe you'll be murdered.
(13:39):
The result of leaving the woods is unknown, and that's what
you're afraid of. You're afraid of the unknown.
You don't know what's going to happen when you go in there, but
what might happen might be bad. So you're just afraid of the
unknown, right? Well, as it turns out, modern
humans really aren't that far removed from the ancient.
(13:59):
Humans of 6. 1000 years ago, maybe even 12,000 years ago or
more, because it's suggested that belief in demons started as
far back as the Paleolithic age,which is very far.
It's very far away so they didn't call them demons back
then though, and they believed in a wide range of unexplained
(14:21):
spiritual phenomena, not all of it bad, some of it even good.
And reminder Christianity was not there yet, it would not be
showing up for quite some time, so just keep that in mind.
From an anthropological perspective, demons result from
human fear of the unknown. That is straight up, I was going
(14:45):
to say a fact, but I don't know that.
I guess that anyway, whatever, it's as close to a fact as we're
going to get. That is what anthropologists
presume demons stem from, is a fear of the unknown, which makes
a lot of sense in the context ofthe scary dark woods.
Right. Like I said, like if you go into
the woods, maybe you'll come back, maybe you won't.
(15:07):
You don't want to get murdered, so it's best to just stay out of
there. But also, there's a feeling that
you're feeling when you're looking at those woods and
you're considering mortality andwhat?
How what do you, how what do youcall that feeling?
How do you do you assign something to it?
Yeah, maybe you do. So in ancient Greek religion and
(15:29):
mythology, specifically around 400 BC, they still didn't have
demons in the way that we understand them now, but they
did have something called daimons spelled Dai.
Mon. S So daimons weren't evil by
default. They could be good or bad, but
more specifically they were kindof more akin to like like a
(15:51):
guiding spirit or like a lesser God.
And diamonds were not servants of the Christian Satan, which
still has not been written into existence by the way, or still
not there yet. That would come with the New
Testament around 100 AD ish. Because even though the word
Satan shows up in the Old Testament slash Hebrew Bible up,
(16:15):
Satan actually wasn't a proper noun in the Old Testament.
It was more like a title referring to an opponent.
So anyway, sometimes it does seem that diamonds and Greek
culture were actually. Closer to ghosts.
Who might give spiritual guidance?
Think Obi Wan's ghost or Mufasa.Sometimes though, OK.
(16:38):
Sometimes though they could be more like Hamlet's father.
Hamlet's father's ghost, which spoiler alert doesn't didn't
Well, diamonds could be good or bad.
They were not always bad, in fact some even thought that
diamonds were randomly assigned a human at birth to live inside.
(17:00):
Like they cast lots to figure out which diamond was going to
be assigned to which human. Kind of sounds a little bit like
a soul to me, which is a whole nother conversation and also
involves the Roman views on whattheir version of diamonds were,
which I am going to hold myself back from doing because I think
(17:22):
I'm going to have to do a deep dive on demons.
Let me know, do you want to hearmore about demons?
Let me know I'm out of strange. Was at gmo.com.
Anyway, Fast forward, Fast forward just a little bit to the
Hellenistic period of ancient Greece, which was the space of
time between the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC
and the death of Cleopatra the 7th in 30 BC.
(17:45):
Yes, there were many Cleopatra's, but the Cleopatra,
our Cleopatra, who Cleopatra is named after was number 7.
And just so you have your bearings in time, just keep in
mind that the Roman Empire came right after Cleopatra's death
because Egypt was a Ptolemaic Kingdom, akaa Greek Kingdom
(18:05):
ruled by Cleopatra, who was Macedonian, and Macedonia was a
part of ancient Greece and by the way, Alexander the Great
also from Macedonia. And so when the Roman Empire
defeated Cleopatra's naval fleetand invaded Egypt and OK, you
know what? I really am just going to have
to do another separate deep diveon Cleopatra or like Ancient
(18:26):
Egypt, I don't know. Let me know
madamstrangeways@gmail.com. Let me know so I can continue.
Anyway, moving on, Demons, we'retalking about demons, demons,
demons, demons. During the Hellenistic period of
Ancient Greece, for the very first time, diamonds were split
into good versus evil categoriesand got their own names.
(18:48):
So there were noble spirits. Agathodimon.
This is terrible, I'm sorry. Please let me know.
Let me know how I mispronounced this Madam strangeways@gmail.com
Agathodimon versus malevolent spirits.
Caco diamond. This was probably due to
influence from Zoroastrianism, an ancient Iranian religion that
(19:11):
leaned on good versus evil and even had its own concept of
demons called Daiva. I let me know Madam St.
truth@gmail.com. So there's even something
similar to the Christian conceptof the devil in Zoroastrianism,
which is called the principle ofevil and not like the principle
of your school because that's Prince of pal.
(19:33):
This is Principal Prince E play ple OK, the principle of evil,
kind of like the devil who creates and leads the Davos.
And yes, I hear you shouting. Of course, Iran is relevant in
this situation because they werevery easily able to influence
ancient Greece and Rome because Iran was part, How did I say it
(19:58):
before? We're just going to move on
because Iran was a part of Alexander the Great's empire,
which ran from Greece all the way to India.
And I've said before, I know DanCarlin, I'm no Tony Soprano.
Also I'm no Bill Wertz. OK, so please forgive me for
oversimplifying history here andpossibly for getting small
(20:19):
details wrong. Hopefully the gist is correct.
So the concept of demons as servants of the devil entered
the Christian tradition via Judaism, which was also
influenced by Zoroastrianism as I understand it.
So as Judaism spread through Greece, the Greek translation of
(20:39):
the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh translated foreign gods as
malevolent diamonds. So the Greeks read this.
They said, what do we, what worddo we use to translate foreign
gods from Hebrew? I know we'll call them
malevolent diamonds. OK, that's a choice.
(21:02):
So from there, Christianity tookthis and.
Ran with it. Looking around and calling any
Pagan gods and goddesses, including Greek and Roman
deities, diamonds. The bad kind because of course.
So by around 800 ish AD Daimon became demon.
(21:23):
And even now to this day we still specifically use demon to
mean evil spirits under Satan's rule.
Specifically under Christian dogma.
Speaking of Christianity and medieval Christianity, demons
and spirits were generally considered to be fallen angels.
So nature spirits like fairies from Irish and Scandinavian
(21:45):
folklore were often explained asangels who remained neutral
during the War of Heaven. Which seems like just like a
really weird deal. Really weird detail to include,
but like, OK. Later though, Protestants
changed their mind on that stance and decided that actually
fairies are evil and also demons.
(22:06):
So there you go. Jumping from then to the late
1400s when Europeans started to when Europeans, gosh, words are
hard, When Europeans started to colonize North America, we see
those European colonizers applying the same logic to any
indigenous spirits and deities too, calling them demons, hence
(22:28):
demonizing the indigenous peoples whose land they wanted.
So historically, the demons thatso-called demonologists like Ed
Warren referred to could apparently range from fairies to
Aphrodite. Oh, Speaking of Aphrodite,
remember the God Pan, often depicted with the legs and horns
(22:51):
of a goat, cloven hooves, a beard, Mischievous.
Yeah. Sound familiar?
Uh huh. Pan influenced art imagery of
the devil and he was in fact called an evil diamond before it
became demon. Interesting.
So if it seems strange to you that we went from a sort of
(23:12):
laissez faire attitude towards these diamond types of spirits
to the Satanic Panic in the 1980s where people were falsely
accused and then literally jailed for unsubstantiated and
totally fictionalized instances of satanic ritual abuse of
children? And don't even get me started on
Pizzagate. Yeah, it is strange and not
cool. Strange, bad, strange, gross,
(23:34):
strange, scary, strange. According to scholar Joseph
Laycock, who is one of the co-authors of one of my favorite
books, The Exorcist Effect. During the Satanic Panic,
patients hypnotized by therapists to recover memories
of Satanic ritual abuse often seemed to be recalling scenes
from movies such as Rosemary's Baby, The Exorcist, and The
(23:58):
Omen. So they weren't even remembering
real things. They were remembering things
that happened in movies and mistaking them as actual
memories. So is is that kind of what we're
doing when we hear word that a demon might be wreaking havoc on
our lives or lurking in the woods outside our house?
Is that kind of what's happeningthere?
(24:20):
Is that we're picturing modern and terrifying depictions of
demons, or maybe our bodies are even recalling the way that we
felt fear and stress and anxietywhile watching a horror movie
involving a demon. I mean, just remembering
listening to the soundtrack thatis specifically meant to put you
on edge and scare you so that you are properly primed to be
(24:44):
terrified when the director wants you to be.
Is that what's happening? Is that our bodies are just
remembering that whenever we think of demons?
And is that why we're all so scared of demons?
Or is it really just actually fear of the unknown?
It's some food for thought, but as always, I want to remind you
that even when you are scared ofdemons, you can feel afraid, but
(25:08):
that doesn't mean you're in danger.
Thank you for joining me for more true strange stories of the
unexplained. Remember that you can feel
(25:29):
afraid and not be in danger. You're safe.
Here with me probably please. Follow the podcast.
Leave a rating on Spotify or Apple.
Or tell your. Friends and foes about the show.
It would mean the world to me. The underworld, obviously.
I mean, come on. Was that not?
Was that not clear, Madam? Strangeways is produced and
(25:52):
narrated by me, Madam Strangeways.
Theme music. Isbymarina.ryan@marinamakes.co
Cover art is by Andrea Chisel Roldan at Cult of Teddy.
On Instagram, you. Can submit your own true strange
story at madamstrangeways.com ore-mail it to
(26:12):
madamstrangeways@gmail.com. See you soon, she said
ominously.
Oh, I didn't hear you come in. What's that?
You've got a true strange story of the unexplained you'd like to
hear narrated on the show. E-mail it to me
madamstrangeways@gmail.com Welcome strangers to Madam
Strangeways, where I, Madam Strangeways, narrate your true
(00:24):
strange stories of the unexplained and.
As always, solicited. Or not, Usually not.
I share my strange thoughts and observations and drag you down
a. Slew of.
Strange rabbit holes, kicking and screaming if absolutely
necessary. Today I've got one new spine
(00:45):
tingling true strange story for you, but first the.
Strangest of shout outs to my. Patreon Patrons TJ Hotter, G Mad
Music, Ted Keith and Tori. Thank you SO.
Much to my. Feral fiendish. 5 For supporting
the show Do you want to hear your name?
At the beginning of every episode.
(01:06):
Or how about an exclusive sticker?
Or even access to Madam Strange notes.
AKA. Strange bonus content Join the
Patreon today at madamstrangeways.com or
patreon.com/madam Strange Ways And now on to our true strange
story here on Madam Strange Ways.
(01:53):
Experience with my dad that I still have nightmares about 25
years later. By Holly.
This happened circa 1998. I was about 13.
We lived next to a fenced and heavily wooded area behind one
of our local YMCA's. Being that we lived in a large
(02:14):
city, there was a ton of crime and a few bodies had been found
in these woods over the years. We had an extremely religious
Christian neighbor that my dad was close with as they were both
single parents. She told my dad that there was a
demon that lived in these woods.As a result of negative energy
from all the violence those woods had seen.
(02:38):
I wasn't allowed to go back there but I still would.
Never at night though and the few times I did I would hear
footsteps behind me or feel complete dread the whole way
home as I only used them as a shortcut to walk home sometimes
from a friend's house. I know this sounds silly, but
(03:01):
even in a lit up city. Those woods were.
So dark. I get that.
Woods are supposed. To be dark.
And what a stupid thing to say, but this was a different kind
of. Darkness.
I don't. Know how to describe it except
for saying they just felt evil. Anyhow, 1998, thirteen years
(03:24):
old. I didn't have the easiest
upbringing. My dad was in a constant state
of anxiety. We were poor.
My dad always owed money to somebody and my brother and I
were pretty much neglected, as all teens in the 90s seem to
have been. I love my dad very much, but
there was always some kind of negativity or hardship in his
(03:48):
life, which in turn was reflected onto my brother and me
because we lived with him. My mom moved out of state when I
was 10. There was literally no solace
and I lived a stone's throw awayfrom these woods.
It first started with the reoccurring nightmares.
A blackness would seep out of the woods like fog.
(04:10):
I could never get away fast enough.
It would envelope me and drag meinto the woods.
I had this dream every night formonths.
My dad was convinced we were under attack whereas I thought
it was just him and the neighborfreaking me out with their
(04:30):
theories. One night we were sitting in the
driveway and my dad's beat up old Volvo.
We were having an argument. I don't even remember what it
was about now, but we were goingback and forth just being nasty
to one another and I'll never forget it.
My dad said every time we do this we just feed this thing
(04:52):
that lives out in the woods. I laughed at him.
I remember saying something to belittle him, just can't
remember word for word. But it was something that pretty
much made fun of him. And the thing in the woods.
At that very minute, something started beating on the trunk of
the car. It felt like.
(05:14):
Two fists coming down on the trunk, over and over.
We both screamed. It got louder and harder at that
moment. I threw my.
Arms around my dad and I said. I love.
You, I'm sorry. And he said the same, almost
like a chant it became. And as we said the words to one
(05:36):
another, the blows to the trunk became softer and lesser until
they disappeared all together and we were both in tears.
Later, when he inspected the car, there were dents that
looked. Like fists.
(05:56):
On the back of his trunk. I know the car was already
beaten up to hell, but those were not there before.
My dad has since passed away, but even if he were alive he
would never talk about this. The few times I tried to bring
it up over the years, he shut the conversation down just as
(06:20):
fast as it was mentioned. We moved shortly after that.
I still believe in my heart and soul that those woods have
something evil living in them and I live 3 miles away from
them now sometimes. I feel curious.
Enough to try to go back and record to catch something, but
(06:45):
then again, I'm so terrified to even think about walking into
those woods at night. Holly, thank you so much for.
Sharing. Your horrifying story with me
(07:07):
and allowing me to share it on the show, although it was
horrifying also, it kind of did like bring your dad and you back
together. At least I don't know long term
question mark, but at the time at least it kind of helped you
guys see eye to. Eye.
Because of the fear that you had.
Very, very scary, but also kind of sweet.
(07:28):
So was it a demon? Do demons bring people together,
you know, is or is the demon in the forest like shaking their
fists? Like, damn you.
No, The power of love, that's myone weakness.
You know, we'll never know. So I have a lot of thoughts
about demons, which I want to get into in a second.
(07:49):
But before I get there. Something.
That jumped out at me was the the trunk of the car, how it had
like fist indentation marks on it.
You know, that's really scary. What does that especially what
does that while you're arguing in the car, like, come on, read
the room, read the room. We're busy.
So I don't know if anyone out there has an idea of what could
(08:12):
have been pounding on the trunk of the car while they were
arguing inside of it. Let me know.
Also, the timing. That was really SUS.
That was really SUS. That's the timing.
Anyway. Let me know if you think, you
know, what could have caused that.
What, like what? What wildlife could have been
banging on the trunk of the car like that?
Let me know Madam strangeways@gmail.com Right?
(08:33):
So let's. Get into demons.
If you've OK, listen, if you've listened to the show before,
which I hope you have. If not, welcome.
Welcome. To Madam.
Strange ways. If you've listened before, you
may know that I feel a certain way about demons and the people
spreading demon propaganda and demon mongering, if you will,
(08:55):
for lack of a better term. So part of what I do this
podcast for is to undo some of that fear and anxiety for you in
the event that you do happen to get really scared of the thought
of a demonic presence out to getyou.
Or if demons really freak you out and they keep you up at
night after you've watched a scary movie and there's demons
(09:16):
and you're thinking, well, gosh,demons are everywhere.
They're invisible and they couldbe anywhere at any time.
Oh my God, like, and if that stresses you out, I feel you.
I get you because that used to be me.
That used to be me. And I'm not going.
To lie sometimes that is still me.
All right. So it's it's I'm in remission.
(09:39):
I am a recovering demon, scaredycat, all right.
But what helped me and what I hope also helps you is
researching to really understand, like, what is a
demon though actually, like, what is a demon?
So like for me, OK, when I was akid, you know, and I believed in
demons because I was told to believe in demons.
(10:02):
So for me as a kid, you know, listen, I didn't really
understand what demons were. I just knew they were really
scary. So even though I, I knew quote
UN quote that they were real andI knew that they could even be
in my bedroom at night and like lurking and watching me sleep, I
understood that. But what I kind of just accepted
was that like, well, hell is real.
(10:23):
Obviously. Satan's real, obviously.
And Satan is the demon king, andthe demons do his bidding, and
they're real. And they're actively trying to
harm me or my family or my lovedones in the pursuit of, I don't
know, demonic Glee. Is this like Monsters, Inc?
(10:46):
Is that the plot for Monsters Inc?
Except then the demons don't eventually figure out that
laughter gets them more demon juice?
I don't know. But what I couldn't have told
you as a child was what a demon actually was.
Like, maybe I maybe I would havesaid that like, evil spirit,
they were OK. Maybe I would have said that
like, demons were evil spirits sent by Satan.
(11:09):
But like, what does that mean? You know, I, I think I just
assumed that demons had been around forever plaguing
humanity. I mean, honestly, I don't know,
man. Because looking back, I sure
didn't ask myself any of these questions.
Not a single one of them. And I bet that there's a lot of
people who also haven't asked themselves these questions
either. So let's do it.
(11:31):
Let's ask what are demons? So when you hear the word.
Demon you could. Be picturing Lucifer and
Asmodeus if you're a Supernatural fan, for instance,
or Pizuzu if you've seen The Exorcist, or Baphomet if you
follow the Satanic Temple, or Mephistopheles if you're a fan
(11:52):
of the musical Cats. Oh no, that's, that's Mr.
Mustophiles. That's not mephistophiles, you
see. OK, anyway, there's Valic, if
you've seen The Conjuring, though he wasn't a nun.
There's Lilith, the first wife of Adam, who was painted as a
(12:13):
demon for wanting and achieving agency over her own body
directly in defiance of God. And she's actually in a ton of
modern media, from Supernatural to Evangelion.
To True Blood. And has been hotel so she's a
very popular demon. Demons in general are very
popular in modern media. Yeah.
So basically, you're probably picturing A malevolent,
(12:34):
intelligent agent of chaos who is hell bent on causing human
suffering. Now, some of us may be picturing
A malevolent, intelligent agent of chaos who is also very
attractive and charismatic. Let's put that to the side.
Let's unpack that on another day.
(12:54):
All right, let's come back to that later in another episode.
For now, Scary. OK, scary bad.
Not scary good. You're probably picturing that a
demon's soul motivation is causing harm or even possibly
death if the demon ends up possessing someone, which is a
thing that demons can do. So, in a nutshell, when you
(13:18):
think of demons, you may find yourself afraid of something.
You're just not sure exactly what, only that it would be bad.
For instance, going out into thescary dark forest outside of
Holly's home. Maybe you'll come back out
alive. Maybe you'll be murdered.
(13:39):
The result of leaving the woods is unknown, and that's what
you're afraid of. You're afraid of the unknown.
You don't know what's going to happen when you go in there, but
what might happen might be bad. So you're just afraid of the
unknown, right? Well, as it turns out, modern
humans really aren't that far removed from the ancient.
(13:59):
Humans of 6. 1000 years ago, maybe even 12,000 years ago or
more, because it's suggested that belief in demons started as
far back as the Paleolithic age,which is very far.
It's very far away so they didn't call them demons back
then though, and they believed in a wide range of unexplained
(14:21):
spiritual phenomena, not all of it bad, some of it even good.
And reminder Christianity was not there yet, it would not be
showing up for quite some time, so just keep that in mind.
From an anthropological perspective, demons result from
human fear of the unknown. That is straight up, I was going
(14:45):
to say a fact, but I don't know that.
I guess that anyway, whatever, it's as close to a fact as we're
going to get. That is what anthropologists
presume demons stem from, is a fear of the unknown, which makes
a lot of sense in the context ofthe scary dark woods.
Right. Like I said, like if you go into
the woods, maybe you'll come back, maybe you won't.
(15:07):
You don't want to get murdered, so it's best to just stay out of
there. But also, there's a feeling that
you're feeling when you're looking at those woods and
you're considering mortality andwhat?
How what do you, how what do youcall that feeling?
How do you do you assign something to it?
Yeah, maybe you do. So in ancient Greek religion and
(15:29):
mythology, specifically around 400 BC, they still didn't have
demons in the way that we understand them now, but they
did have something called daimons spelled Dai.
Mon. S So daimons weren't evil by
default. They could be good or bad, but
more specifically they were kindof more akin to like like a
(15:51):
guiding spirit or like a lesser God.
And diamonds were not servants of the Christian Satan, which
still has not been written into existence by the way, or still
not there yet. That would come with the New
Testament around 100 AD ish. Because even though the word
Satan shows up in the Old Testament slash Hebrew Bible up,
(16:15):
Satan actually wasn't a proper noun in the Old Testament.
It was more like a title referring to an opponent.
So anyway, sometimes it does seem that diamonds and Greek
culture were actually. Closer to ghosts.
Who might give spiritual guidance?
Think Obi Wan's ghost or Mufasa.Sometimes though, OK.
(16:38):
Sometimes though they could be more like Hamlet's father.
Hamlet's father's ghost, which spoiler alert doesn't didn't
Well, diamonds could be good or bad.
They were not always bad, in fact some even thought that
diamonds were randomly assigned a human at birth to live inside.
(17:00):
Like they cast lots to figure out which diamond was going to
be assigned to which human. Kind of sounds a little bit like
a soul to me, which is a whole nother conversation and also
involves the Roman views on whattheir version of diamonds were,
which I am going to hold myself back from doing because I think
(17:22):
I'm going to have to do a deep dive on demons.
Let me know, do you want to hearmore about demons?
Let me know I'm out of strange. Was at gmo.com.
Anyway, Fast forward, Fast forward just a little bit to the
Hellenistic period of ancient Greece, which was the space of
time between the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC
and the death of Cleopatra the 7th in 30 BC.
(17:45):
Yes, there were many Cleopatra's, but the Cleopatra,
our Cleopatra, who Cleopatra is named after was number 7.
And just so you have your bearings in time, just keep in
mind that the Roman Empire came right after Cleopatra's death
because Egypt was a Ptolemaic Kingdom, akaa Greek Kingdom
(18:05):
ruled by Cleopatra, who was Macedonian, and Macedonia was a
part of ancient Greece and by the way, Alexander the Great
also from Macedonia. And so when the Roman Empire
defeated Cleopatra's naval fleetand invaded Egypt and OK, you
know what? I really am just going to have
to do another separate deep diveon Cleopatra or like Ancient
(18:26):
Egypt, I don't know. Let me know
madamstrangeways@gmail.com. Let me know so I can continue.
Anyway, moving on, Demons, we'retalking about demons, demons,
demons, demons. During the Hellenistic period of
Ancient Greece, for the very first time, diamonds were split
into good versus evil categoriesand got their own names.
(18:48):
So there were noble spirits. Agathodimon.
This is terrible, I'm sorry. Please let me know.
Let me know how I mispronounced this Madam strangeways@gmail.com
Agathodimon versus malevolent spirits.
Caco diamond. This was probably due to
influence from Zoroastrianism, an ancient Iranian religion that
(19:11):
leaned on good versus evil and even had its own concept of
demons called Daiva. I let me know Madam St.
truth@gmail.com. So there's even something
similar to the Christian conceptof the devil in Zoroastrianism,
which is called the principle ofevil and not like the principle
of your school because that's Prince of pal.
(19:33):
This is Principal Prince E play ple OK, the principle of evil,
kind of like the devil who creates and leads the Davos.
And yes, I hear you shouting. Of course, Iran is relevant in
this situation because they werevery easily able to influence
ancient Greece and Rome because Iran was part, How did I say it
(19:58):
before? We're just going to move on
because Iran was a part of Alexander the Great's empire,
which ran from Greece all the way to India.
And I've said before, I know DanCarlin, I'm no Tony Soprano.
Also I'm no Bill Wertz. OK, so please forgive me for
oversimplifying history here andpossibly for getting small
(20:19):
details wrong. Hopefully the gist is correct.
So the concept of demons as servants of the devil entered
the Christian tradition via Judaism, which was also
influenced by Zoroastrianism as I understand it.
So as Judaism spread through Greece, the Greek translation of
(20:39):
the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh translated foreign gods as
malevolent diamonds. So the Greeks read this.
They said, what do we, what worddo we use to translate foreign
gods from Hebrew? I know we'll call them
malevolent diamonds. OK, that's a choice.
(21:02):
So from there, Christianity tookthis and.
Ran with it. Looking around and calling any
Pagan gods and goddesses, including Greek and Roman
deities, diamonds. The bad kind because of course.
So by around 800 ish AD Daimon became demon.
(21:23):
And even now to this day we still specifically use demon to
mean evil spirits under Satan's rule.
Specifically under Christian dogma.
Speaking of Christianity and medieval Christianity, demons
and spirits were generally considered to be fallen angels.
So nature spirits like fairies from Irish and Scandinavian
(21:45):
folklore were often explained asangels who remained neutral
during the War of Heaven. Which seems like just like a
really weird deal. Really weird detail to include,
but like, OK. Later though, Protestants
changed their mind on that stance and decided that actually
fairies are evil and also demons.
(22:06):
So there you go. Jumping from then to the late
1400s when Europeans started to when Europeans, gosh, words are
hard, When Europeans started to colonize North America, we see
those European colonizers applying the same logic to any
indigenous spirits and deities too, calling them demons, hence
(22:28):
demonizing the indigenous peoples whose land they wanted.
So historically, the demons thatso-called demonologists like Ed
Warren referred to could apparently range from fairies to
Aphrodite. Oh, Speaking of Aphrodite,
remember the God Pan, often depicted with the legs and horns
(22:51):
of a goat, cloven hooves, a beard, Mischievous.
Yeah. Sound familiar?
Uh huh. Pan influenced art imagery of
the devil and he was in fact called an evil diamond before it
became demon. Interesting.
So if it seems strange to you that we went from a sort of
(23:12):
laissez faire attitude towards these diamond types of spirits
to the Satanic Panic in the 1980s where people were falsely
accused and then literally jailed for unsubstantiated and
totally fictionalized instances of satanic ritual abuse of
children? And don't even get me started on
Pizzagate. Yeah, it is strange and not
cool. Strange, bad, strange, gross,
(23:34):
strange, scary, strange. According to scholar Joseph
Laycock, who is one of the co-authors of one of my favorite
books, The Exorcist Effect. During the Satanic Panic,
patients hypnotized by therapists to recover memories
of Satanic ritual abuse often seemed to be recalling scenes
from movies such as Rosemary's Baby, The Exorcist, and The
(23:58):
Omen. So they weren't even remembering
real things. They were remembering things
that happened in movies and mistaking them as actual
memories. So is is that kind of what we're
doing when we hear word that a demon might be wreaking havoc on
our lives or lurking in the woods outside our house?
Is that kind of what's happeningthere?
(24:20):
Is that we're picturing modern and terrifying depictions of
demons, or maybe our bodies are even recalling the way that we
felt fear and stress and anxietywhile watching a horror movie
involving a demon. I mean, just remembering
listening to the soundtrack thatis specifically meant to put you
on edge and scare you so that you are properly primed to be
(24:44):
terrified when the director wants you to be.
Is that what's happening? Is that our bodies are just
remembering that whenever we think of demons?
And is that why we're all so scared of demons?
Or is it really just actually fear of the unknown?
It's some food for thought, but as always, I want to remind you
that even when you are scared ofdemons, you can feel afraid, but
(25:08):
that doesn't mean you're in danger.
Thank you for joining me for more true strange stories of the
unexplained. Remember that you can feel
(25:29):
afraid and not be in danger. You're safe.
Here with me probably please. Follow the podcast.
Leave a rating on Spotify or Apple.
Or tell your. Friends and foes about the show.
It would mean the world to me. The underworld, obviously.
I mean, come on. Was that not?
Was that not clear, Madam? Strangeways is produced and
(25:52):
narrated by me, Madam Strangeways.
Theme music. Isbymarina.ryan@marinamakes.co
Cover art is by Andrea Chisel Roldan at Cult of Teddy.
On Instagram, you. Can submit your own true strange
story at madamstrangeways.com ore-mail it to
(26:12):
madamstrangeways@gmail.com. See you soon, she said
ominously.
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