August 11, 2024 • 29 mins
Lee Rasch, executive director of LeaderEthics - a non-partisan, non-profit organization dedicated to promoting ethical political leadership - talks with Robin about the need to hold politicians to a higher standard, no matter how hard that is.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning. I'm Robin Colbert and this is Madisine Forum.
I guess this morning is Lee Rash is the executive
director of Leader Ethics Wisconsin. Mister Rash, thanks so much
for joining me this morning. If you can give a
quick synopsis just what is Leader Ethics Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The Leader Ethics is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that was
formed in twenty eighteen, and it's committed to promoting ethical
leadership among elected officials.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
And Boyne, you have your job cut out for you.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, you know, and irony is that. Obviously, ethical leadership
is something we respect in almost every other walk of life,
in business and education, healthcare and so on, and why
not why not among the elected officials?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And you know, maybe we just reminisced about the good
old days, but it seemed back in the day there
our leadership it appeared to be more ethical. But of course,
in this day and age, with social media and all that,
that kind of really changes the game, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well it has. I think other factors have contributed to
that too. And by the way, in our view, an
ethical leader is someone who is truthful, they're transparent with
public information, they're a unifier, and they to the best
of their ability work to represent their entire constituency. So
those are the four principles that we really hone in
(01:26):
on because we think those are key drivers to being
an effective ethical leader.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
And with the elections in full swing pretty much, we
got our primary coming up this week and then of
course in November the presidential election. And are people paying
attention to your message or are they Are they bored
by ethics and politics or are people just so cynical
(01:51):
at this point?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, that's really a good question. I think there are
segments that are turned off by the whole climate, the
visitsness of the climate today. At the same time, I'm
finding that there are a lot of people that are
looking for something better. They recall the years when things
(02:14):
were better, and essentially I would say that's probably the
majority of the people. It's just that there are sometimes
unwilling to speak up because they don't want to be
shouted down. So it's important for us in our role
to get our message out to help people feel that
we have a wonderful democratic republic it's worth working for
(02:38):
and fighting for to protect and speaking out is the
right thing.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
And there's been a focus with your organization In fact,
this past week you had a forum at Madison College
really with a focus not so much on the candidates
that are in the running, but on the people behind
the scenes, the election workers, and just the in tegrity
of our elections.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, it's very important because you know, the Wisconsin elections process,
if it isn't perfect, it's very close. You really consider
how it compares to other states, certainly other countries, and
it's interesting that Wisconsin has the most decentralized electoral process.
We have about eighteen hundred and fifty local elected officials
(03:26):
because of the various towns and municipalities that we have.
Think about that that's nearly one in five. Because there's
ten thousand local elected officials nationally, it's nearly one in
five is in Wisconsin. And so, on one hand, it
means that we have to really work on training so
that they are effective in the oversight of our elections process.
(03:50):
On the other hand, when you go to vote, you're
likely going to recognize as your neighbor or friends, the clerks,
the volunteers, and so there's a lot more I think
confidence and trust when you know somebody that has worked
hard to try to do the process and I think
and if you had something that was in a centralized, monolithic.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Way, oh, I would totally agree with that. Yeah. I
know the volunteers at my polling spot. You see them
several times a year, and I have complete trusts that
they're not trying to tip the scales one way or another.
But boy, some that aren't so ethical sure want us
(04:33):
all to believe that. Isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, and you know, the polls show that there is
the overwhelming majority of people have confidence in our voting process.
In fact, there was a recent poll. This was just
a Conservatives in Wisconsin. Oh, but the recent poll said
the sixty three percent believe the state's electoral process is
working properly, and seventy six percent answered yes, that my
(05:01):
vote counts. And so the vocal voices are not coming
from them. The outspoken criticism is coming from people that
are not a significant majority. But the concern is in
some cases these volunteers and election clerks are receiving intimidation
and threats, which is really concerning because we can't afford
(05:26):
to lose that vital link. And so we're hoping to
protect them and support them right now because they're a
vital part of our process surveying.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, there was just a recently report out, a story
out about there has been increased turnover as far as
volunteer clerks or people who want to be involved in
the process after twenty twenty. Part of you can't blame
them exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
You know they're doing this because they believe in our
Democrats republic. They feel it's the right thing to do
as a volunteer or if they're employed, it's the right
career choice to align with their values. And they certainly
didn't sign out for someone putting employee threaps. I mean
(06:18):
that wouldn't be in any job or any career. You
wouldn't want to be in a position where that's fand
of job.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, and just recently, I know our clerk here in
Dane County, Scott McDonald, had to speak out and get
a message out to the clerks around the county about
to an email not too long ago. But there's this guy,
I don't even want to say his name, but in
New London, I'm sure you're very well aware of him,
who has made it his mission to file one lawsuit
(06:48):
after another against state and local election officials and most
of them appear to be just meritless and it's how
why is that allowed? You know, I can't understand how
he continues to be allowed to do this.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, I can say that it's sad that that is occurring,
but in some ways, that kind of effort happens. It
happens for people who are in leadership role. But what
we need to do is support the people to let
them know that we don't accept that. We will defend
it legally, We'll support them with letters to the media,
(07:28):
will do things to show our appreciation so that they
understand that this kind of extreme position is not going
to be tolerated.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, because one of the recent mailings to the clerks
was that it was illegal to send out absentee ball
envelopes and just you know, things that are just totally untrue.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, And I've been through is a part of this
election year preparation. I've been through five different presentations with
representatives from the Wisconsin Elections Commission and the local clerks,
and I can tell you it's a very comprehensive, thorough process.
I can't say I can recite every item forbatim, but
(08:13):
I can tell you the questions that came up about
the connection. There is no connection between the voting machines
and the internet. There are paper ballots backing up everything.
So when there are doubts or questions that can be
audited completely. They basically have the checks and balances in
place ensure that the election is going to be run well.
(08:35):
If there is fraud, it's minute and it's an individual's
peril if they want to try to do something like
voting twice or doing something like that, to try to
try to do that given the safeguards that our place.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
You know, I've been in the media reporting in Wisconsin
elections for a couple of well three decades now, I
guess and I tell you just I remember just starting out,
just hearing the voter fraud claims. I mean, it's it's
gotten louder over the years, and it's gotten more legs.
(09:12):
And I guess that again social media. Back in the day,
it used to be vans coming up from Illinois to
stuff our ballot boxes and and the fight for voter
I d well, we have voter ID, but then it's
always something else, you.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Know, right, well, and that's unfortunately we are are are
with casual in the way we use the term voter fraud.
You know, the US Department Justice has a specific definition
and that's what basically, if someone is accused of that
and they're convicted of that, there's a significant penalty. There's
(09:49):
always this gray area that both political parties are vying
for and it involves trying to encourage voter turnout or
discourage order turnout or something right then, and that's not
violating the law. Unfortunately, that's part of politics. But those
are the things that sometimes we label that as fraud
(10:12):
and we go down this radical and unfortunately, many people
don't understand our electoral process and so they're more prone
to believe than misinformation that's out there.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
And you know, this year, I also just recently saw
a piece on some news program about real concern in
the November election coming up here as far as some
of the players that are involved around the nation that
have their thumbs on the scale, as far as we're
(10:46):
talking about election deniers that became very came forward in
twenty twenty into this day continue to claim that election
was fraudulent. Recently, in Arizona Maricopa County, they had their
they call it a county recorder who oversees the voter
registration and all that kind of stuff. He lost his
(11:07):
primary to one of these election deniers. Now he's going
to stay on through the November election. But I mean,
we're seeing these people come up in the ranks, these deniers,
and they're getting their hands in the pot here.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, you know, and that's that's that is a challenge
that we really as a as a nation, we need
to work on developing the countering legislation. I will say
one thing. Most of the states have a Secretary of
State that manages the guidance and the rules involving election
(11:42):
and Wisconsin has the Wisconsin Elections Commission, and I know
that that's been within the legislature. There's been some dispute
and controversy with the BAC. But the fact is there
are three Democratic appointed representatives and three Republicans, and that's
far safer than having an elected official who was in
(12:05):
one party or the other, given the extreme partisan pressure
that's under way right now. And so I think in
other states, the question is if the party is taking
a very extreme role in leveraging you've only got one
office to convince and that's concerning yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But even on our elections, Commission of the split between
Democrats and Republicans, and they hand off one party to
the other when it comes to elections. What is it
every two years, I believe when it comes to the
chair who is the chair of the Commission. But we
still a member of this elections Commission that I can't
(12:47):
even believe how ethically this is allowed. One of the
fake electors, Yeah, the fake electors schemes.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Mean I know there's not anything you can do about it,
but you know, just this is kind of your topic
of interest here, and just is that surprising to you?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah? Well, I thank you. This is where I would
do this, Okay, this is why we're promoting ethical leadership.
We're trying to encourage the next generation of elected officials,
the people running for office choose to be an ethical leader,
someone who's going to try to do those things in
that matter. And then we're trying to support and give
(13:30):
encouragement to the current role models that are out there
and right now, for me, it's a bigger concern when
I see really good, reputable leaders in both parties opting
to step down rather than have a hotly contested primary
or receive some kind of threat from one group or
(13:54):
the other. And that's a bigger concern because if you
lose the really good people and then the next generation
coming up is not believing get truth and and uh
transparency and so on. Well that's the pool, that's what
we're working with. And so so I think it's important
for us to raise our expectations as citizens. We should
(14:16):
be supporting in every way the people who we recognize
as other leaders.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, with the with the unethical uh leaders or those
I mean. Part of the part of the process I'm
guessing is, you know, you build mistrust in your your media,
mistrust in your government, education, and why not the voting process.
So I'm guessing that's kind of a victory if they
(14:43):
see people just stop fighting it and just get out,
get out of the way.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah. Well, we recently had an example in Wisconsin, Uh
you know, Congressman Mike Gallagher. Yeah, And there's an orderanization
called the Common Ground Committee, and they do ratings. They
have a scorecard on the forward and twenty five members
of Congress on how they practice by partisanship, and they
(15:12):
have a five point process and essentially they rate them
and then share that with citizens so they can consider
that in terms of voting. Mike Gallagher was in the
top twenty by this rated by this group in terms
of his willingness to work toward common ground, and he's
(15:36):
the one who's unfortunately resigning because the controversial decision they're party,
I mean, opted to make a vote regarding the impeachment
decision of the Secretary of Homeland Security, and then we
learned later that his family was swatted after that decision,
(15:59):
and the implication was that he signed up for this
kind of risk, but his family didn't. And so that's
a very very significant concern, and those are things we
should be openly trying to address in our electoral process
as we go forward.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, and whether it's our elected representatives here or appointed.
I mean, I've seen this happen in There was a
very good long term sheriff I know of whose wife
pretty much said we're done if you run for re
election because of the increased scrutiny and all that comes
(16:37):
with it. And yeah, you signed up for it, but
not your family. So yeah, there is I was encouraged
to see earlier this year the Wisconsin Democracy Defense Project.
Do you work with them?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Not directly, we don't, Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Well, this project to try and build trust, i'd imagine
your kind of companion project trying to build trust in
our elections here in Wisconsin and encouraging. I see some
big names on both sides of the political aisle that
are participating in this, like our former Republican Attorney General JB.
Van holland longtime Congressman Scott Klug, and then you've got
(17:17):
Democrats like Mandela Barnes working together. That's got to be
encouraging for you to see as well.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It is in fact, and there are some other organizations
that are involved in promoting trust in our elections. We're
involved with an organization called Keep Out Republic and they're
working with community and state leaders in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
There's an organization called wis Act. The co founders are
(17:48):
David Haynes and former Governor Scott McCollum, and we're actively
working with them. And I view that as encouraging because
Wisconsin is a big state that we're a state of regions,
and I think when you have different efforts going on
and they're complementary, that's the best way to reach the
(18:09):
average citizen. And so we're very supportive with We have
an upcoming event in October with an organization called the
Former Members of Congress, and there'll be a town hall meeting.
It'll be in the Cross and Beyond. It'll be livestream,
and we'll have former Congressman Scott klug, ron Kind, Read Ribel,
(18:30):
and Tom Petry and they're going to be talking about
what they're seeing in our elections process and where we
should be going. It should be an interesting program.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah. Yeah. As far as in your discussions or when
you hold these forums, I would think, what's a country
you perhaps point to as an example of why we
need to keep our democratic process. I'd imagine what just
happened in Venezuela is kind of a Glarian example of
why safe and secure, free, fair elections are so important.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Well, I think there are there are bad examples around
the around the world, and I think the concern globally
is that there has been a trend toward authoritarianism and
uh and that flies in the face of democracy. And
so when we see signs of that, I think those
(19:23):
are the things that we should be very concerned about.
And I think we've had a history of at times
conflict and partisan challenges, but this is probably unique in
one way. Whereas in the sixties when you had violence
and this agreement, it was based on policy and the
(19:45):
day a lot more and other things. Today, unfortunately, it's
tied to our political party, and that's a sad situation there.
There is nothing in the US Constitution about political part
It's all about representation, and so the idea of trying
to counter the belief that our political party should be
(20:08):
should supersede the country is a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Are you as we get closer to November, are you nervous?
Are you worried?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, we're going to do this. We're going to work
as an organization. We're going to collaborate with these other organizations,
and we're going to do everything we can to get
the information out to voters. We're going to encourage people
to do several things. First of all, have confidence in
the elections process. In Wisconsin. You know, in fact the
(20:40):
twenty twenty two election, without nobody complained about it, we
elected a Republican Republican US Senator and a Democratic governor.
So that's where we ought to come from. The second
is we should be very wary of disinformation and this
information and check our sources and make sure we we
know what we're we're seeing and that can verify that
(21:04):
in our votes and certainly and what we share on
social media. And then the third thing is just get
out and vote. And if we do that, and we
do that to the best of our ability, then then
we then the process should do what it's intended to
do and as elect the next generation.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And as you pointed to, just even a recent survey
of Republicans in the state, and I'm not trying to
sell whatsoever Sally Republicans. It's the grand ole Party, for
God's sakes, but there are seems, you know, this fringe
that broke off and that is behind it is the
(21:40):
big lie of twenty twenty that that was a fraudulent election.
But as you would point it to, that survey show
a majority of Wisconsin Knights do trust the process.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
They do and this election is likely to be very close.
And we're also watching to uh to be able to
speak out quickly and act quickly if there is anyone
that is falsely claiming that the results are what they
should be. And so we're we're going to have community
(22:15):
spokespersons ready to speak out we'll have attorneys that are
poised to take action quickly, and so we're going to
do everything we can to ensure that it's a fair
election and it's supportant.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Does your organization have poll watchers? That's that's kind of
become the big thing, which I'd imagine is fine as
long as you know they keep their distance and don't distract,
which some of them do well.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
We encourage people, if you have doubts, become a toole
watcher and uh and it's one way to help them
to verify that that the election is run as I should.
You know Kathy Berner, former Republican states who's also a
former elections clerk. You know, frequently people in the northern
(23:05):
private state would say that, well, I don't I trust
my clerk, but I don't trust the people in Milwaukee.
And she's spent down there and she spent time as
a pole watcher, and she could verify that. You know,
there's a different culture in that community. But the elections
will run properly and fairly. And so I think I
(23:25):
have no concern about someone becoming a pole watcher because
I think the process is going to show them that
it's run fairly.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
As long as they play by the rules, of course.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
And that's where the concern about political turmoil comes in.
And I think if that moves into this election, either before, during,
or immediately after, that's a significancern in Our hope is
that we can talk about it ahead of time and
pre bunk that kind of thinking so that it's not
(23:57):
something that we can expect to happen.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Well, and then you know, we see the courts get
involved with the challenges and it's really it's become just
a drawn out process anymore, just when you think it
had there. I totally understand a challenge with you know,
if it's a close race, absolutely the recount and what
have you, but it just seems like there's a never,
(24:21):
never ending up legal path to take to keep fighting
something until the very possible end.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah. Well, I think the issue on that front is
most likely if it does with the presidential election. And
they did pass the federal legislation which clarified the electoral
college counting process, and it gave some specific timelines and
(24:52):
so if there is a if there is an attempt
to do a recount or whatever, there's a timeline that applies.
A has to be done, and if they don't meet
the timeline, the governor has to release the electoral votes,
and if they don't meet the timeline, they forfeit the
entire state's electoral votes. So there's a there's a lot
(25:13):
more pressure to get it done and to get it
done properly in the timeline. Now, I will say I
we're aware that there are attorneys that are looking at
to try to find loopholes, but I feel a whole
lot better about the preparation this time.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Oh you do, Okay, Yes, they do good. I've been
talking with if you're just joining us, I've been talking
with Lee rash As, the executive director of Leader Ethics Wisconsin.
How long has this group been around me?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We're in our seventh year and and you know, and
it's an important year for us. We you know, and
we have been formally allied with other organizations with Common
it's because we recognize that right now we need to
be moving in the same direction and trying to go
(26:07):
on alone. And so we're proud partners with Democracy Found
with Keep our Republic and the American Promise, and all
of those organizations are doing things that really align well
with our efforts and.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
We have a watch an untold number of Watchdog Wisconsin
democracy campaigns still around, Right and Common Cause and those groups.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yes, that's good news too. You know, if you look
at the challenges that we're facing, they're really multi layered,
and so each layer has its own issues and complexities.
And I think some groups are focusing on electoral process reform.
(26:54):
That's a good thing. We should be doing something about
trying to fix the partisan primary process, which is skewing
the way we elect people. We should be doing things
about campaign finance. But there are many other layers as well,
and I think when organizations own in their specialty, that's
great because it means that we can as a democratic republic,
(27:19):
see things moving in the right direction if we support them.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And just quickly here there has been some talk I
can't seriously think that this would ever go back to
being the case for our elections here in the United
States States with the advancement of technology, or do you
have an issue with technology or do you think we
need to go back to the old paper ballot way.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Well, there's there is no good reason to go back
to the paper ballot. That's a reflection of the mistrust
that is really part of the problem. And the machines
are not connected to the Internet. They're simply helping us
in processing votes. We have people that are saying that
(28:05):
if our votes aren't counted by election day, they shouldn't count.
And then there was legislation to try to step up
accounting a day early in Wisconsin. It didn't ask And so,
you know, at some point we need to recognize that
we have integrity in what we're doing. Anything can be
subject to improvement, but going to the paper ballot only
(28:27):
is not the answer.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Well, let's say for some crazy reason that happened, then
there would be something else. Yeah, I mean there's always.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Something because the mistrust is driving it. You're absolutely right correct.
And again, the most significant mistress is not coming from
that larger majority. I think that's the other thing we
have to recognize that. So we shouldn't let a minority
of our population that is skeptical about most anything to
(28:58):
be driving or overall demographic.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, I'm glad you will end with that. I'm glad
you made mention of that again, because it is easy
to get to, you know, dissuaded by the whole process
if you listen to the loud minority, and you fear
that just what's the point it's you know, but just
to remember what you said that a majority majority of
(29:22):
us believe it is being done correctly. Okay, anything else
do you want to add before we have to wrap
it up.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Well, thank you for the opportunity to chance and I'm
looking forward to the next ninety days.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Beautiful, he'll fly by. I've been talking with Lee rash Is,
the executive director of Leader Ethics Wisconsin. This is Madison
for him.
Good morning. I'm Robin Colbert and this is Madisine Forum.
I guess this morning is Lee Rash is the executive
director of Leader Ethics Wisconsin. Mister Rash, thanks so much
for joining me this morning. If you can give a
quick synopsis just what is Leader Ethics Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The Leader Ethics is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that was
formed in twenty eighteen, and it's committed to promoting ethical
leadership among elected officials.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
And Boyne, you have your job cut out for you.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, you know, and irony is that. Obviously, ethical leadership
is something we respect in almost every other walk of life,
in business and education, healthcare and so on, and why
not why not among the elected officials?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And you know, maybe we just reminisced about the good
old days, but it seemed back in the day there
our leadership it appeared to be more ethical. But of course,
in this day and age, with social media and all that,
that kind of really changes the game, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well it has. I think other factors have contributed to
that too. And by the way, in our view, an
ethical leader is someone who is truthful, they're transparent with
public information, they're a unifier, and they to the best
of their ability work to represent their entire constituency. So
those are the four principles that we really hone in
(01:26):
on because we think those are key drivers to being
an effective ethical leader.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
And with the elections in full swing pretty much, we
got our primary coming up this week and then of
course in November the presidential election. And are people paying
attention to your message or are they Are they bored
by ethics and politics or are people just so cynical
(01:51):
at this point?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, that's really a good question. I think there are
segments that are turned off by the whole climate, the
visitsness of the climate today. At the same time, I'm
finding that there are a lot of people that are
looking for something better. They recall the years when things
(02:14):
were better, and essentially I would say that's probably the
majority of the people. It's just that there are sometimes
unwilling to speak up because they don't want to be
shouted down. So it's important for us in our role
to get our message out to help people feel that
we have a wonderful democratic republic it's worth working for
(02:38):
and fighting for to protect and speaking out is the
right thing.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
And there's been a focus with your organization In fact,
this past week you had a forum at Madison College
really with a focus not so much on the candidates
that are in the running, but on the people behind
the scenes, the election workers, and just the in tegrity
of our elections.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, it's very important because you know, the Wisconsin elections process,
if it isn't perfect, it's very close. You really consider
how it compares to other states, certainly other countries, and
it's interesting that Wisconsin has the most decentralized electoral process.
We have about eighteen hundred and fifty local elected officials
(03:26):
because of the various towns and municipalities that we have.
Think about that that's nearly one in five. Because there's
ten thousand local elected officials nationally, it's nearly one in
five is in Wisconsin. And so, on one hand, it
means that we have to really work on training so
that they are effective in the oversight of our elections process.
(03:50):
On the other hand, when you go to vote, you're
likely going to recognize as your neighbor or friends, the clerks,
the volunteers, and so there's a lot more I think
confidence and trust when you know somebody that has worked
hard to try to do the process and I think
and if you had something that was in a centralized, monolithic.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Way, oh, I would totally agree with that. Yeah. I
know the volunteers at my polling spot. You see them
several times a year, and I have complete trusts that
they're not trying to tip the scales one way or another.
But boy, some that aren't so ethical sure want us
(04:33):
all to believe that. Isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, and you know, the polls show that there is
the overwhelming majority of people have confidence in our voting process.
In fact, there was a recent poll. This was just
a Conservatives in Wisconsin. Oh, but the recent poll said
the sixty three percent believe the state's electoral process is
working properly, and seventy six percent answered yes, that my
(05:01):
vote counts. And so the vocal voices are not coming
from them. The outspoken criticism is coming from people that
are not a significant majority. But the concern is in
some cases these volunteers and election clerks are receiving intimidation
and threats, which is really concerning because we can't afford
(05:26):
to lose that vital link. And so we're hoping to
protect them and support them right now because they're a
vital part of our process surveying.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, there was just a recently report out, a story
out about there has been increased turnover as far as
volunteer clerks or people who want to be involved in
the process after twenty twenty. Part of you can't blame
them exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
You know they're doing this because they believe in our
Democrats republic. They feel it's the right thing to do
as a volunteer or if they're employed, it's the right
career choice to align with their values. And they certainly
didn't sign out for someone putting employee threaps. I mean
(06:18):
that wouldn't be in any job or any career. You
wouldn't want to be in a position where that's fand
of job.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, and just recently, I know our clerk here in
Dane County, Scott McDonald, had to speak out and get
a message out to the clerks around the county about
to an email not too long ago. But there's this guy,
I don't even want to say his name, but in
New London, I'm sure you're very well aware of him,
who has made it his mission to file one lawsuit
(06:48):
after another against state and local election officials and most
of them appear to be just meritless and it's how
why is that allowed? You know, I can't understand how
he continues to be allowed to do this.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, I can say that it's sad that that is occurring,
but in some ways, that kind of effort happens. It
happens for people who are in leadership role. But what
we need to do is support the people to let
them know that we don't accept that. We will defend
it legally, We'll support them with letters to the media,
(07:28):
will do things to show our appreciation so that they
understand that this kind of extreme position is not going
to be tolerated.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, because one of the recent mailings to the clerks
was that it was illegal to send out absentee ball
envelopes and just you know, things that are just totally untrue.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, And I've been through is a part of this
election year preparation. I've been through five different presentations with
representatives from the Wisconsin Elections Commission and the local clerks,
and I can tell you it's a very comprehensive, thorough process.
I can't say I can recite every item forbatim, but
(08:13):
I can tell you the questions that came up about
the connection. There is no connection between the voting machines
and the internet. There are paper ballots backing up everything.
So when there are doubts or questions that can be
audited completely. They basically have the checks and balances in
place ensure that the election is going to be run well.
(08:35):
If there is fraud, it's minute and it's an individual's
peril if they want to try to do something like
voting twice or doing something like that, to try to
try to do that given the safeguards that our place.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
You know, I've been in the media reporting in Wisconsin
elections for a couple of well three decades now, I
guess and I tell you just I remember just starting out,
just hearing the voter fraud claims. I mean, it's it's
gotten louder over the years, and it's gotten more legs.
(09:12):
And I guess that again social media. Back in the day,
it used to be vans coming up from Illinois to
stuff our ballot boxes and and the fight for voter
I d well, we have voter ID, but then it's
always something else, you.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Know, right, well, and that's unfortunately we are are are
with casual in the way we use the term voter fraud.
You know, the US Department Justice has a specific definition
and that's what basically, if someone is accused of that
and they're convicted of that, there's a significant penalty. There's
(09:49):
always this gray area that both political parties are vying
for and it involves trying to encourage voter turnout or
discourage order turnout or something right then, and that's not
violating the law. Unfortunately, that's part of politics. But those
are the things that sometimes we label that as fraud
(10:12):
and we go down this radical and unfortunately, many people
don't understand our electoral process and so they're more prone
to believe than misinformation that's out there.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
And you know, this year, I also just recently saw
a piece on some news program about real concern in
the November election coming up here as far as some
of the players that are involved around the nation that
have their thumbs on the scale, as far as we're
(10:46):
talking about election deniers that became very came forward in
twenty twenty into this day continue to claim that election
was fraudulent. Recently, in Arizona Maricopa County, they had their
they call it a county recorder who oversees the voter
registration and all that kind of stuff. He lost his
(11:07):
primary to one of these election deniers. Now he's going
to stay on through the November election. But I mean,
we're seeing these people come up in the ranks, these deniers,
and they're getting their hands in the pot here.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, you know, and that's that's that is a challenge
that we really as a as a nation, we need
to work on developing the countering legislation. I will say
one thing. Most of the states have a Secretary of
State that manages the guidance and the rules involving election
(11:42):
and Wisconsin has the Wisconsin Elections Commission, and I know
that that's been within the legislature. There's been some dispute
and controversy with the BAC. But the fact is there
are three Democratic appointed representatives and three Republicans, and that's
far safer than having an elected official who was in
(12:05):
one party or the other, given the extreme partisan pressure
that's under way right now. And so I think in
other states, the question is if the party is taking
a very extreme role in leveraging you've only got one
office to convince and that's concerning yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But even on our elections, Commission of the split between
Democrats and Republicans, and they hand off one party to
the other when it comes to elections. What is it
every two years, I believe when it comes to the
chair who is the chair of the Commission. But we
still a member of this elections Commission that I can't
(12:47):
even believe how ethically this is allowed. One of the
fake electors, Yeah, the fake electors schemes.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Mean I know there's not anything you can do about it,
but you know, just this is kind of your topic
of interest here, and just is that surprising to you?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah? Well, I thank you. This is where I would
do this, Okay, this is why we're promoting ethical leadership.
We're trying to encourage the next generation of elected officials,
the people running for office choose to be an ethical leader,
someone who's going to try to do those things in
that matter. And then we're trying to support and give
(13:30):
encouragement to the current role models that are out there
and right now, for me, it's a bigger concern when
I see really good, reputable leaders in both parties opting
to step down rather than have a hotly contested primary
or receive some kind of threat from one group or
(13:54):
the other. And that's a bigger concern because if you
lose the really good people and then the next generation
coming up is not believing get truth and and uh
transparency and so on. Well that's the pool, that's what
we're working with. And so so I think it's important
for us to raise our expectations as citizens. We should
(14:16):
be supporting in every way the people who we recognize
as other leaders.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, with the with the unethical uh leaders or those
I mean. Part of the part of the process I'm
guessing is, you know, you build mistrust in your your media,
mistrust in your government, education, and why not the voting process.
So I'm guessing that's kind of a victory if they
(14:43):
see people just stop fighting it and just get out,
get out of the way.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah. Well, we recently had an example in Wisconsin, Uh
you know, Congressman Mike Gallagher. Yeah, And there's an orderanization
called the Common Ground Committee, and they do ratings. They
have a scorecard on the forward and twenty five members
of Congress on how they practice by partisanship, and they
(15:12):
have a five point process and essentially they rate them
and then share that with citizens so they can consider
that in terms of voting. Mike Gallagher was in the
top twenty by this rated by this group in terms
of his willingness to work toward common ground, and he's
(15:36):
the one who's unfortunately resigning because the controversial decision they're party,
I mean, opted to make a vote regarding the impeachment
decision of the Secretary of Homeland Security, and then we
learned later that his family was swatted after that decision,
(15:59):
and the implication was that he signed up for this
kind of risk, but his family didn't. And so that's
a very very significant concern, and those are things we
should be openly trying to address in our electoral process
as we go forward.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, and whether it's our elected representatives here or appointed.
I mean, I've seen this happen in There was a
very good long term sheriff I know of whose wife
pretty much said we're done if you run for re
election because of the increased scrutiny and all that comes
(16:37):
with it. And yeah, you signed up for it, but
not your family. So yeah, there is I was encouraged
to see earlier this year the Wisconsin Democracy Defense Project.
Do you work with them?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Not directly, we don't, Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Well, this project to try and build trust, i'd imagine
your kind of companion project trying to build trust in
our elections here in Wisconsin and encouraging. I see some
big names on both sides of the political aisle that
are participating in this, like our former Republican Attorney General JB.
Van holland longtime Congressman Scott Klug, and then you've got
(17:17):
Democrats like Mandela Barnes working together. That's got to be
encouraging for you to see as well.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It is in fact, and there are some other organizations
that are involved in promoting trust in our elections. We're
involved with an organization called Keep Out Republic and they're
working with community and state leaders in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
There's an organization called wis Act. The co founders are
(17:48):
David Haynes and former Governor Scott McCollum, and we're actively
working with them. And I view that as encouraging because
Wisconsin is a big state that we're a state of regions,
and I think when you have different efforts going on
and they're complementary, that's the best way to reach the
(18:09):
average citizen. And so we're very supportive with We have
an upcoming event in October with an organization called the
Former Members of Congress, and there'll be a town hall meeting.
It'll be in the Cross and Beyond. It'll be livestream,
and we'll have former Congressman Scott klug, ron Kind, Read Ribel,
(18:30):
and Tom Petry and they're going to be talking about
what they're seeing in our elections process and where we
should be going. It should be an interesting program.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah. Yeah. As far as in your discussions or when
you hold these forums, I would think, what's a country
you perhaps point to as an example of why we
need to keep our democratic process. I'd imagine what just
happened in Venezuela is kind of a Glarian example of
why safe and secure, free, fair elections are so important.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Well, I think there are there are bad examples around
the around the world, and I think the concern globally
is that there has been a trend toward authoritarianism and
uh and that flies in the face of democracy. And
so when we see signs of that, I think those
(19:23):
are the things that we should be very concerned about.
And I think we've had a history of at times
conflict and partisan challenges, but this is probably unique in
one way. Whereas in the sixties when you had violence
and this agreement, it was based on policy and the
(19:45):
day a lot more and other things. Today, unfortunately, it's
tied to our political party, and that's a sad situation there.
There is nothing in the US Constitution about political part
It's all about representation, and so the idea of trying
to counter the belief that our political party should be
(20:08):
should supersede the country is a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Are you as we get closer to November, are you nervous?
Are you worried?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, we're going to do this. We're going to work
as an organization. We're going to collaborate with these other organizations,
and we're going to do everything we can to get
the information out to voters. We're going to encourage people
to do several things. First of all, have confidence in
the elections process. In Wisconsin. You know, in fact the
(20:40):
twenty twenty two election, without nobody complained about it, we
elected a Republican Republican US Senator and a Democratic governor.
So that's where we ought to come from. The second
is we should be very wary of disinformation and this
information and check our sources and make sure we we
know what we're we're seeing and that can verify that
(21:04):
in our votes and certainly and what we share on
social media. And then the third thing is just get
out and vote. And if we do that, and we
do that to the best of our ability, then then
we then the process should do what it's intended to
do and as elect the next generation.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And as you pointed to, just even a recent survey
of Republicans in the state, and I'm not trying to
sell whatsoever Sally Republicans. It's the grand ole Party, for
God's sakes, but there are seems, you know, this fringe
that broke off and that is behind it is the
(21:40):
big lie of twenty twenty that that was a fraudulent election.
But as you would point it to, that survey show
a majority of Wisconsin Knights do trust the process.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
They do and this election is likely to be very close.
And we're also watching to uh to be able to
speak out quickly and act quickly if there is anyone
that is falsely claiming that the results are what they
should be. And so we're we're going to have community
(22:15):
spokespersons ready to speak out we'll have attorneys that are
poised to take action quickly, and so we're going to
do everything we can to ensure that it's a fair
election and it's supportant.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Does your organization have poll watchers? That's that's kind of
become the big thing, which I'd imagine is fine as
long as you know they keep their distance and don't distract,
which some of them do well.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
We encourage people, if you have doubts, become a toole
watcher and uh and it's one way to help them
to verify that that the election is run as I should.
You know Kathy Berner, former Republican states who's also a
former elections clerk. You know, frequently people in the northern
(23:05):
private state would say that, well, I don't I trust
my clerk, but I don't trust the people in Milwaukee.
And she's spent down there and she spent time as
a pole watcher, and she could verify that. You know,
there's a different culture in that community. But the elections
will run properly and fairly. And so I think I
(23:25):
have no concern about someone becoming a pole watcher because
I think the process is going to show them that
it's run fairly.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
As long as they play by the rules, of course.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
And that's where the concern about political turmoil comes in.
And I think if that moves into this election, either before, during,
or immediately after, that's a significancern in Our hope is
that we can talk about it ahead of time and
pre bunk that kind of thinking so that it's not
(23:57):
something that we can expect to happen.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Well, and then you know, we see the courts get
involved with the challenges and it's really it's become just
a drawn out process anymore, just when you think it
had there. I totally understand a challenge with you know,
if it's a close race, absolutely the recount and what
have you, but it just seems like there's a never,
(24:21):
never ending up legal path to take to keep fighting
something until the very possible end.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah. Well, I think the issue on that front is
most likely if it does with the presidential election. And
they did pass the federal legislation which clarified the electoral
college counting process, and it gave some specific timelines and
(24:52):
so if there is a if there is an attempt
to do a recount or whatever, there's a timeline that applies.
A has to be done, and if they don't meet
the timeline, the governor has to release the electoral votes,
and if they don't meet the timeline, they forfeit the
entire state's electoral votes. So there's a there's a lot
(25:13):
more pressure to get it done and to get it
done properly in the timeline. Now, I will say I
we're aware that there are attorneys that are looking at
to try to find loopholes, but I feel a whole
lot better about the preparation this time.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Oh you do, Okay, Yes, they do good. I've been
talking with if you're just joining us, I've been talking
with Lee rash As, the executive director of Leader Ethics Wisconsin.
How long has this group been around me?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We're in our seventh year and and you know, and
it's an important year for us. We you know, and
we have been formally allied with other organizations with Common
it's because we recognize that right now we need to
be moving in the same direction and trying to go
(26:07):
on alone. And so we're proud partners with Democracy Found
with Keep our Republic and the American Promise, and all
of those organizations are doing things that really align well
with our efforts and.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
We have a watch an untold number of Watchdog Wisconsin
democracy campaigns still around, Right and Common Cause and those groups.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yes, that's good news too. You know, if you look
at the challenges that we're facing, they're really multi layered,
and so each layer has its own issues and complexities.
And I think some groups are focusing on electoral process reform.
(26:54):
That's a good thing. We should be doing something about
trying to fix the partisan primary process, which is skewing
the way we elect people. We should be doing things
about campaign finance. But there are many other layers as well,
and I think when organizations own in their specialty, that's
great because it means that we can as a democratic republic,
(27:19):
see things moving in the right direction if we support them.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And just quickly here there has been some talk I
can't seriously think that this would ever go back to
being the case for our elections here in the United
States States with the advancement of technology, or do you
have an issue with technology or do you think we
need to go back to the old paper ballot way.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Well, there's there is no good reason to go back
to the paper ballot. That's a reflection of the mistrust
that is really part of the problem. And the machines
are not connected to the Internet. They're simply helping us
in processing votes. We have people that are saying that
(28:05):
if our votes aren't counted by election day, they shouldn't count.
And then there was legislation to try to step up
accounting a day early in Wisconsin. It didn't ask And so,
you know, at some point we need to recognize that
we have integrity in what we're doing. Anything can be
subject to improvement, but going to the paper ballot only
(28:27):
is not the answer.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Well, let's say for some crazy reason that happened, then
there would be something else. Yeah, I mean there's always.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Something because the mistrust is driving it. You're absolutely right correct.
And again, the most significant mistress is not coming from
that larger majority. I think that's the other thing we
have to recognize that. So we shouldn't let a minority
of our population that is skeptical about most anything to
(28:58):
be driving or overall demographic.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, I'm glad you will end with that. I'm glad
you made mention of that again, because it is easy
to get to, you know, dissuaded by the whole process
if you listen to the loud minority, and you fear
that just what's the point it's you know, but just
to remember what you said that a majority majority of
(29:22):
us believe it is being done correctly. Okay, anything else
do you want to add before we have to wrap
it up.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Well, thank you for the opportunity to chance and I'm
looking forward to the next ninety days.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Beautiful, he'll fly by. I've been talking with Lee rash Is,
the executive director of Leader Ethics Wisconsin. This is Madison
for him.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides.  Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer  Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.