Dr. Darlene Konkle Wisconsin State Veterinarian

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning. I'm Robin Colbert and this is Madison Forum.
My guest this morning is doctor Darlene Conkle. She is
the state's veterinarian at the Wisconsin Department of Egg Trade
and Consumer Protection and she has definitely been the go
to here as we continue to grapple with this bird
flu outbreak. Doctor Conkle, thank you so much for joining

(00:21):
me this morning. And I'd imagine you're quite busy these days.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yes, we are busy. Thanks for having me this morning.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Absolutely, and I guess I was a little bit surprised.
This is a continuation of the outbreak that began in
twenty twenty two.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yes, yes, we've been dealing with this virus H five
and one avian influenza since in the United States, at
least since early in twenty twenty two.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Is this kind of routine for such a I mean,
I've heard of avian flu years past, obviously more so
over the past year, especially when we're looking at the
price of eggs and all that kind of stuff. But
is this a wave that comes through like this every
now and again, or is this unprecedented that we're in
our third year of this.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I guess in my experience. This is a little unprecedented
to be dealing with the virus for this long. US
has had different incursions of highly pathogenic aving influenza in
the past decades, and the poultry industry and our state
animal health and federal animal health colleagues have been preparing
for it for a for a long time as well. So,

(01:30):
for instance, in twenty fifteen, we had an avan influenza
virus that went through the United States and affected poultry
flocks that we dealt with for probably the better part
of a year, and then that virus died out. We
didn't see it again. And there's been a couple of
other avian influenza viruses that we've dealt with over the

(01:52):
years that have been fairly short lived as well. But
this son, as we said, came over to North America
from Europe in late twenty twenty one, and it is
changing a bit and reassorting, its mutating as blue viruses do.
But it's basically the same virus.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Good gosh, And yeah, I was going to ask you doctor,
as far as bird flu avian influenza, does it track
like the human flu A or B and the CDC
and the vaccine makers have to kind of do their
scientific best guests for the vaccine of the year is
that the same way it works with the bird flu.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, bird flo is a little different. We do not
typically vaccinate poultry in the United States for avian influenza.
The US has what we call a stamping out policy
to try to eradicate it as quickly as we can.
It does spread very rapidly among and bird populations, and
it causes really high mortality in those populations. So we

(02:54):
try very hard to control outbreaks of avian influenza to
prevent them spreading. But having said that, USDA has announced
that they will be stockpiling a vaccine. They're trying to
lean forward in the event that we would want to
use vaccine in the United States. So they are working
with vaccine manufacturers to get a good match for this

(03:18):
virus in case the US would elect to use a
vaccine in poultry.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
And I'd imagine hopefully that research is you know, it's
kind of these are trying times right now. A lot
of things have been paused. Is this ongoing though, this research?

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yes, it is okay.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
It has not been impacted by doge cuts or anything
like that.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Not that I'm aware of the research to continue looking
at vaccine for control of highly pathogenic giving if one
is ongoing, which is good.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Now, does the avian influenza impact different breed more than others?
Like you know, you have your chickens, your turkeys, does
one for more than the other? Does it even matter?

Speaker 2 (04:04):
In poultry the disease is pretty consistently, very highly pathogenic
and lethal in our poultry species, so chickens, turkeys are
affected fairly equally. This particular virus has shown the ability
to infect some mammal species as well. Since twenty twenty two,

(04:24):
we've seen this virus detected in some wild mammals. USCA
have a list actually on their website of the different
mammal species that have been affected, and recently about a
year ago was detected in dairy cattle herds in Texas
and Kansas, So we're also dealing with the same virus
in the US in some states in their dairy herds.

(04:46):
It acts very differently in dairy cattle than it does
in poultry. It's not lethal in dairy cattle. These cattle
mostly can recover from this virus, but just an added
layer of complexity with the virus.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, absolutely it's a fascinating and I don't mean that
in a good way, but I'd imagine with the size
of like dairy cattle as compared to a small poultry,
you know, chicken or what have you, just there, they
have an ability to fight it off better, a better
immune system.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's definitely a different immune response I think in cattle
in different receptors for this virus in different species that
indicate how it's going to behave, how the virus is
going to behave, and how much it's going to affect
a different species. So in dairy cattle, they concentrate this
virus in the mammary gland, and they can secrete this
virus at high concentrations in the milk. They also can

(05:43):
develop clinical signs to drop in milk production, dropping feed intakes.
So they do get thick from this virus for a time,
but with supportive care they mostly can recover the dairy.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Cattle and they don't deal with this as far as
eradication like you do with flocks of birds. Obviously you
don't go through and take out, you know, because it's
not fatal with the cattle.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Right, we haven't been as a US policy depopulating any
cattle herds. Definitely, States that have herds affected with dairy
herds affected with this virus are monitoring closely, trying again
to limit the spread of this virus and dairy herds.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Has there been doctor, have you heard of any stories
reports of like you know, when you think of chickens,
a lot of farms settings. Of course, Wisconsin a huge
state for farming where like it's overtaken farms where it's
not just dairy cattle or chickens, but perhaps if you
had pigs or.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
We have not heard of situations where it's really infected
multiple species on a farm. There was a detection in
pigs in the state of Oregon a few months back
where it was kind of a backyard operation where they
had backyard poultry and also some pigs mingling together. And

(07:05):
these animals also had contact with wildlife and wild birds.
So that was the only detection in swine so far
with this virus, and that's part of the reason we're
trying to maintain control and limit the spread of this
virus and eradicate in poultry flox and limit the spread

(07:26):
and dairy herds to avoid having this virus get a
chance to spread as.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Far as like a secondary infection. I don't know if
you would call it that, you know, when you were
talking about dairy cattle that we're finding there happen cases
of pats, house cats that have died from this through
like raw milk.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Right, Yes, there have been some cases in cats in
the United States. Not always possible to determine the route
of infection in the cats. That cats seem to be
highly susceptible to this virus, and in at least some
of the cases, these cats had access to either raw
milk if they were drinking, or pet food that contained

(08:08):
raw products that may have been infected with virus. So
American Veterinary Medical Association has information on their website for
how to protect household cats from the virus, which includes
feeding cooked materials to pets.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Sure, if you want to be extra cautious, make sure
that you get it up to a certain temperature. Correct.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Correct? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (08:33):
How about dogs? How about our dogs? Should I be worried,
my beloved pop. I don't feed them raw milk, but
if there's any sort of if the food's been tainted
by anything, or have you heard of anything like that?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Have not heard of much impact in dogs at all
at this point yet, So again, I think what you
stated is very good practice just in general to feed
pets cooked product, not for consideration of highly pathogenic influenza,
but other pathogens as well.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Doctor, what's the thinking. I know they're trying to get
this under control, but is it just scientifically it's just
a different strain that's come on stronger. Is there anything
that led up to a stronger strain is that we're seeing.
Does the popularity of backyard chickens is that adding into
the mix of the severity of this outbreak or does

(09:29):
it have anything at all to do with it.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
That's a great question for a virologists.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Okay, we're working on this.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Virus as well. It does that. Certainly is a different
virus than we dealt with in twenty fifteen in a
lot of ways. It's a completely different aving influenza virus
that came to the North American content continent at a
different time. This one's got the capability to not only
infect wild birds and poultry, but also some mammal species,
and it has, you know, maintained a reservoir in the

(09:59):
wild population for a period of years now. So there's
ongoing research on this virus that both USDA and CDC
federaland state partners as well as researchers are collaborating with.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, and we'll get to the Wisconsin caseload here in
a sac But I was just looking at the most
recent that I found, and this was as of mid January.
But still Iowa really taken a hit with this, just
shy of like some thirty thousand flocks, and that kind
of is the highest amount in the nation.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, I think most recently Ohio.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Actually, Ohio overtakes.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Number of cases recently. USCA has, by the way, information
on their website that they keep up to date on
both cases and poultry, domestic poultry and cases in cattle
as well as wildlife and other mammal species as well.
But yes, in poultry the latest the highest level of
activity in recent weeks has been in Ohio, in Indiana,

(11:00):
and somewhat in Pennsylvania and other mid Atlantic states. But
there's been another number of states dealing with the virus
in poultry over the past weeks as well. We had
three cases in Wisconsin in December of last year December
of twenty twenty four in domestic poultry in two flocks

(11:22):
in northwest Wisconsin and one flock in southeast Wisconsin. We
know the virus is in the environment in some of
the wild bird populations, but we have not had a
high number of cases in Wisconsin and we hope it
stays that way here through spring.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
And doctor, if you can just help me kind of
decipher the information here, I was just looking at these
stats that I got from. I'm not sure what the
agency was. It was, but scientific. It wasn't just some
Internet just grabbed off that. But I'm looking here at
the numbers now and I'm seeing do they consider a

(11:58):
flock like each bird or because some of these numbers,
I'm noticing the commas and it's like, wait, that wasn't
just under thirty thousand in Iowa. Looks like twenty nine million.
I mean, are they talking so a flock is each bird?

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Well, a flock would be the like a herd of cattle,
a flock of poultry. So a flock of poultry for
laying hens could be anything from a few hundred or
a few thousand to several million in some flocks in
some states. What you're seeing on those high numbers is
that the actual number of birds that needed to be
depopulated and over the course of the entire outbreak since

(12:40):
since twenty twenty two, You're right, Iowa did have a
large number of cases in twenty twenty two. Is some
large flocks, so overall they've got some higher numbers.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
And so when we look at walk me through the process.
I have chickens and oh, I'm suspicious they're lethargic or
you know, they're just often I'm kind of suspicious that
they could be impacted. What do I do? Do I
call Department of bag or how do you go about determining.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Brian. We certainly encourage flock owners, whether they're commercial or backyard,
to give us a call if they see anything concerning.
So for the average backyard flock person, definitely if you're
seeing something that makes you concerned, and certainly there are
other factors besides highly pathogenic eving influenza that can cause

(13:34):
illness in poultry, But if you have a veterinarian you're
working with, we encourage you to work with your veterinarian
working through that. If you have any question at all
that it might be highly pathogenic, even influenza, we encourage
people to call. We've got that information on our website
for how to get in contact with us at Department
of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection and one of our

(13:57):
staff veterinarians will help walk through whether this might be
a suspicious case or not. And we are suspicious of
HYPATHIAI in a poultry flock. Will work to get samples
taken to the veterinary diagnostic labs so we can find
out for sure and.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
If it comes back, and yes, it definitely is does
a strain of avian influenza. So when you say depopulated,
is depopulating the same as calling and just kind of
scientific terms for eradicating, right, you just get you kill
all the birds?

Speaker 2 (14:29):
It is. Yeah, we depopulation means trying to as humanly
and as expediently as possible euthanize the birds, and that's
to avoid spread to other flocks or within the flock.
As I said, this virus is highly lethal to poultry,
so it will go through a flock really rapidly, So
we want to try to limit that spread and that

(14:50):
viral load as much as we can, so we'll work
with flock owners on that. If it is positive for
even influenza, we get those testries results and detect that virus,
we do place the quarantine on the flock, work to
depopulate the flock, and then work with poultry owners on
any cleaning and disinfection of the premises or waiting period

(15:15):
for some backyard flocks before repopulating.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
And this has been the way it's been done for years, right, Yes, yes,
because now there's been questions. I'm sure you're very well aware.
Maybe you're not up to date on where they are
in the process. I was just looking at a store
the other day from the Trump administration looking at a
new strategy that would would not involve wiping out whole

(15:43):
flocks of chickens instead of doing a more targeted approach
mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
And certainly it's worth always relooking at a strategy and
trying to look at the best strategy available for controlling
this virus. In conversations with our USDA partners, we're understanding that, yes,
we're going to keep eliminating this virus and depopulating infected flocks.
Certainly there's different strategies we can take in different ways.

(16:15):
We can look at biosecurity and other factors to control
this virus.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
As well, And that's why and they're also have been
seeing cases as you can imagine with you know, just
the high price for eggs and the scarcity of them
at stores, the eggs smuggling at the southern border, and
what's the dangers of buying into smuggled eggs from a

(16:41):
different country.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Well, certainly we want any eggs coming into the US
to go through the appropriate procedures. And there are procedures
in place from federal agencies such as FDA and USDA
for imported products that they meet certain conditions and standards
for entry into the US. So definitely people would want
to make sure that any food product they're purchasing goes

(17:06):
through those safeguards.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Sure, And as far as you know, the novice, the
backyard chicken farmers, how how I mean, we haven't had
have we had any cases where the backyard chicken farmers
have produced or gotten eggs out that have been tainted

(17:28):
by the avian flu or because we've had a human case, right,
that's the big concern here, is that somehow it'll transmit
into humans.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Right, we have had human cases in the US, and
there was one human case in Wisconsin as well. CDC
reports seventy cases and people since the start of the outbreak,
and they've been. In the vast majority of cases, the
human infections have been a result of exposure people working

(18:00):
directly with infected purds or flocks, so having the chance
to become exposed to that virus through working closely with
the animals. CDC in our Wisconsin Department of Health Services
have recommendations for those folks who work on dairy and
poultry farms for additional personal protective equipment and procedures to
keep people safe as far as consumption of eggs or

(18:25):
milk food products are safe. Milk is pasteurized and help
pasteurization kills this virus any egg laying flocks. This virus
moves so quickly through poultry that drop an egg production
occurs at the very beginning of an infection, so infected

(18:45):
poultry do not really lay eggs after they are infected
very readily, and the depopulation process and the safeguards in
place don't allow milk, eggs, or meat from affected flocks
into the food chain. Also, the additional safeguard is our

(19:08):
food safety partners will say as well that proper cooking
and handling techniques help prevent against even influenza as well
as a lot of other pathogens.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
So I may have had contact, may have purchased some
eggs that may be kind of past could be impacted here,
but if I cook them, I should be okay.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yes, And it's very unlikely that infected eggs or eggs
from an infected flock would be entering the food chain
at all.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Because you said once they get the infection, they don't
lay correct, okay, and that's kind of continue.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Oh, uninfected flocks as well. There's procedures in place too
if there are eggs stored on the facility to appropriately
dispose of those as well.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
And the chickens that are you say, humanely called or depopulated,
those are all like then incinerated. Correct, People aren't like
taking the meat or something like that.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Correct, Yes, And birds from an infected slock that need
to be depopulated or that die from the virus are
disposed of in a way that prevents additional contamination or
additional transmission of the virus. So incineration might be one
way to do that. There are other methods as well.
Composting has been an effective method for us in Wisconsin,

(20:36):
and other methods as well, and we work with our
USDA colleagues and other environmental specialists on those disposal methods.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
And I understand you're not with Wisconsin's Department of Health
dealing with the research and handling of human transmission, but
this is all under the same umbrella. I would imagine
this kind of tracks along like if you're exposed to
you know, regular influenza or like back or COVID anymore,

(21:09):
that those that are immune compromised or very young or
very old are the most at risk here should they
get a tainted product.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Again, the tainted product would not be the worry of really,
because food safety is well maintained throughout those virus but
I mean especially people who are immune compromised or have
other underlying health conditions. Department of Health Services has information
on their website as well. We just want those folks
to be careful about visiting animals or being in contact

(21:44):
with animals and just to take additional precautions.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yes, and I'm sorry, but I said tainted product, And yes,
it's not getting to the product level transmission through the
contact with There was a fatal case down south, if
I recall, and yeah, and that was from I suppose
this person had worked directly with flocks.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yes, there was a fatal case of having influence and
a human to my knowledge, the only one in the
US to this point, and the person had contact with
backyard poultry, and my understanding has also had some underlying
medical conditions.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
And so now the whole egg laying process why this
has just taken such a hit and why eggs have
become a well high priced or scarce because chickens aren't
created equally when it comes to laying eggs, Like, isn't
it the older they they get, the slower of the process.
You want some real young, spry chickens to get those eggs, right.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
That's actually a little beyond my level of expertise for
poultry production story, But certainly we've had with the recent
cases across the US US some impact on egg laying
facilities through this virus as well. So that's again the

(23:08):
additional reason for why we're trying so hard to eliminate virus.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Sure, and have you heard of these if rent a chicken,
these new operations that have popped up were I guess
it's not all that new, but it's getting more attention
in light of egg shortage and just the bird flew
outbreak here where people can rent a couple of backyard

(23:33):
chickens and get the feed and all that for like
five hundred bucks.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
And I have not heard of the rent rented chicken idea.
But again, I just would point people to our website
DATCP do w I dot gov for information for backyard
flock enthusiasts on biosecurity and good management practices for the
backyard flocks.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
And do you doctor, do you have backyard chickens or
you don't take your walk home with you.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
I don't have backyard chickens myself. I do live in
Madison where it's quite popular. Yeah, backyard chickens.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
And has there been any indication? I mean, just how
long is this outbreak gonna run? I mean, eventually it's
got to run its course or or not. I mean
this is just yeah, going into three years here.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah. I wish I had a crystal ball to predict
how long we're going to be dealing with this virus,
and unfortunately I don't. But certainly we're working closely with
our state and federal counterparts and the researchers to learn
more about this virus as we go.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
And just chickens aside just any sort of deceased You
know this time of year that temp's getting nicer. People
out and about, whether you're out walking your pets, or
you're out with your kids or what have you, and
coming across sort of deceased wildlife, i'd imagine take extra precaution,

(25:06):
not just for bird influenza, but other sort of viruses
I'm guessing you can contract mm HM.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
And yeah, Wisconsin d and our colleagues have information on
their website as well, but their recommendations are to not
touch sick or dead wildlife. If you're concerned about sick
or dead wildlife, they do have a number on their
website that people can call the report that.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
And you even have to be aware of whether you
can transmit via your clothes, right.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yes, and that's part of good biosecurity. We have that
information on our website as well. But some of the
practices we want people to be aware of, just good
practices when working around poultry or cattle or really any livestock,
is to keep everything clean, to wash hands regularly, use
dedicated footwear or booties you can remove when you're working

(26:01):
with animals, and also wear coveralls or other dedicated clothing
because it is possible for this virus to basically hitch
a ride on boots or other surfaces from one flock
of from one farm to another. So good biosecurity practices
helped present that.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah, and foot baths. Hearing a lot more about that
at zoos. I know Milwaukee County Zoo. One of their
bird exhibits they closed down, but I believe that's because
there were some impacted infected birds found through the Great
Lakes traveled that way. Here in Madison, I know Henry
vilas the birds the exhibits still open, but they said

(26:44):
that foot baths have become kind of routine here, and.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
That's one biosecurity measure that voos or other facilities might
put into place. Different zoos have been aware of this
virus for a number of years as well, and take
good care to p check their their collections there. They're
avian animals.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Now, is the Midwest here regionally the or is it
spread out evenly? Or is the Midwest uh impacted more
than other parts of the country. I know, uh, you know,
we have a well, I would have I would think
we have a higher concentration of farms. But if then
of course, you have like places like California where they

(27:25):
just have just extremely high numbers of such operations mm hm.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well, over the past three years, this virus has moved
around to basically all fifty states, and it depends a
little bit for us here in the Upper Midwest on
the time of year of when the highest levels of
risk are. We usually see a higher level of risk
to our poultry flocks during times that the wild waterfowl

(27:53):
are migrating through at higher rates, So spring and fall
is when we tend to see enough ticking cases. We're
going to in different parts of the country can be
affected at different times.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
So we're kind of right now in a high risk
time of year.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
We may be heading into a high risk time of
the year now as the snow and ice starts melting
and we start seeing more birds come up from the
south through our part of the country. So we've been
putting out information to our poultry flocks that are registered
with our premises registration system and dry herds as well

(28:33):
at different times, just reminding them to be on the
lookout for anything unusual in their animals and to keep
practicing good biosecurity.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Do backyard chicken farmers. Do they need to register as
well with the state.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yes, they do. Premises registration for livestock species is mandatory
in Wisconsin, and good news is it's free and it's easy.
People can register online or by phone, and we've got
links to our web on our website to those methods
as well. But yes, anybody with as few as one
chicken in their backyard would need to register, and that's

(29:08):
so we know where to look. Oh, absolutely if we
have if we have a disease of concern, and we
can reach out to those folks that they provide their
email addresses as well with updated information.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Well, especially in times like these too, where it's so
vital that you can track you know, where a new
infections has popped up and just yeah, so you don't
have some nar to well chicken operation under the cover
of night, you know, tainting the whole state.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yes, and we've had good, good compliance with the premises
registration system. This current year in twenty twenty five is
a renewal year, so we're sending out additional information letting
people know to re up their information so we have
the most current information.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Available all right. I've been speaking with doctor Darlene Concoles.
She is the state's veterinarian with Wisconsin's Department of Egg
Trade and Consumer Protection. Doctor anything else you want to
add before we have to go, I.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Would just point people to our website, as I've mentioned
a couple of times, DATCP dot Wi dot gov for
the latest information on H five and one influenza. We
keep both poultry and dairy sites updated and have great
obscurity information and other information available for people there as well.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
All right, again, thanks so much. A lot of good
information here. You've been listening to Madison for them.