April 24, 2025 • 30 mins
Robin talks with Timm Zumm with FLOW. FLOW works to protect the Lower Wisconsin State Riverway, by partnering with the Lower Wisconsin State Riverway Board and DNR to sponsor activities ranging from river cleanup events to water pollution investigations to river safety.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning. I'm Robin Colbert and this is Madison Forum.
I guess this morning is Tim Zum. He is the
president of the Friends of the Lower Wisconsin Riverway. Tim,
thanks so much for joining me this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
And Tim lives in spring Green. Are you born and
raised there or did you relocate there? It sounds like
you've been there quite a while.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, I'm about a twenty two year transplant to just
a little bit north of spring Green by the spring
Green Nature Preserve, which is a beautiful place where I
raised two boys. Actually, Fox Lake, Wisconsin is my hometown.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh okay, so you are a cheesehead just relocated from
fox Lake to the Wisconsin River area, and you're right.
Spring Green just breathtaking. It's beautiful, a lot of stuff
for raising boys, for boys to go out and do. Unfortunately,
starting off with my discussion with Tim this morning, it's
focusing on a tragic situation. Talking with Tim here on Thursday,
(00:59):
just before or this Sunday airs or this airs on
Sunday morning, and at this time, twenty year old Chicago
man is still missing in the Wisconsin River.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Correct, Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, And two weeks since that boat capsized. Really just
a tragic story here. This young fella was with his
grandpa and a cousin I believe, and they were boating
on the Wisconsin River and their boat capsized. Now the
Wisconsin River is rather high, I mean, would you advise
(01:33):
boaters to maybe steer clear for a while.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, at the time they went in, it was pretty high.
In fact, at the Kilbourne Dam where they were attempting
to fish down below that ways was but twenty three
thousand cubic feet per second. Last Sunday it was down
to thirteen thousand cubic feet per second, which is still
(01:57):
kind of high, and as compared to you know, if
there's anything as normal climate anymore, as if like we're
happy to have four or five thousand could be feet
per second during the summer with the canoe and the
kayak and then sandbar cambon and everything. So yes, I
was out all day yesterday again and it's still up
(02:19):
there compared to the four or five thousand of the summertime.
But the sandbars are starting to emerge, and especially the
wooded islands the water has dropped on, and kind of
the good news is because everything hasn't greened up yet
we could see sure well through the trees, and so
if anything had been deposited onto, especially the upper end
(02:42):
of these islands during the higher water, we would have
saw it. But we did not see anything again yesterday.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, and well, you got to have some hope here
that this tragic search will be coming to an end
sooner rather than later, bringing some peace to the family, because,
as you mentioned here, conditions are improving, unless, of course,
we get another deluge of rain. You know, the river
gives off such a peaceful, lazy vibe, but it's anything
(03:13):
but I mean, it really carries some hidden dangers, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Well, yes, but then again, you know, like they tell you,
there's no such thing as safe ice for ice fishing
and so forth. And while my argument, Robin that never
really gets me anywhere is is I maintain it's more
dangerous driving from spring Green to Madison on the Highway
fourteen than it is out on the river. True, especially
(03:40):
if you don't have any knowledge of it. And you
wouldn't want anybody driving on Highway Voorteine that didn't have
some practice, some experience and so forth. And that's the
same with the river. They shouldn't be going out there
unless they've educated themselves on it. And ideally we say
come along on a group paddle or whatever first, to
(04:04):
get hands on experience, to get a respect for the constant,
unrelenting current, which is great to utilize for going down river.
You can pretty much sit and steer in a canoe
or kayak, but if you are not aware of that,
that's where problems happen.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And now I don't know anything other than with this
recent young man and his grandfather and his cousin. Of course,
the body of his grandfather was found relatively quickly, but
all from the Chicago area. If have you heard anything,
Had they had experience with the Wisconsin River? I mean,
you got to think if Grandpa came up here for this,
(04:43):
he would have had some sort of knowledge of it.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I think what you just said would be accurate. I'm
pretty sure they had some knowledge of it, but perhaps
they hadn't been out when the water was this high
or whatever. And here's the other what I've pieced together
is they were in a fourteen foot john boat, which
is a kind of a small craft, and to have
(05:09):
three adults at the same time, I question how good,
how wise that is to take it out on a
calm lake even but so because typically a john boat
that the sides on it are rather low, it doesn't
take much for turbulent water to splash over the side
and camp size. Yeah, well, that sounds like what they
(05:32):
were doing, just like one compounded thing after the next
that it just didn't bode well. But here's the main
point is they had life vests neatly stored on the boat.
If they'd been wearing those life vests, we wouldn't be
(05:54):
having this conversation right now.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
That just made my stomach sink. That was going to
be my next question as far as life fast. But
oh man, that's really.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And that's what we I'm sorry, that's what we preach
and teach is especially especially along a river. Is the
lower the Wisconsin River. Uh, when you get to the
parking lot by a boat landing, Uh, you stop your vehicle,
you take your seatbelt off, and put your life vest
(06:26):
on right there before you even take a step towards
the water's edge. And then you don't, old man, I
forgot to put my vest on or whatever. And especially
you have kids with you, they get their vest on
right there because one wrong step along the shoreline and
the current would take you down, so put it on
in the parking lot.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I thought that also maybe it was an initiative a
couple of years ago where we've had instances not even
you know, people uh falling out of a boat, you know,
people around swimming or hanging out on sandbars. Was there
like kiosks or life jackets available for us put up
around that area.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Well, at this point in time, there is several years
ago now a little seven year old girl, Angela had
what you just described, remember at the Gotham landing the
town of Buena Vista, And so that's what motivated me
and others to put in what we now have. I
(07:26):
think it's thirteen boat landings. We have free life fest
available along to Lower Wisconsin. I know it's about one
hundred and fifty miles a week. We do a run
to make sure you're well stocked with good vest and
so yes, if you need one, to take one and
when you're done put it back. And that's in conjunction
(07:47):
with the Wisconsin DNR. And there's actually a US Coast
Guard money that helps to supply the vest good.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
And people haven't been walking off with them. That's encouraging.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah. In fact, you know the original d n R
guy that I worked with, his response to that, it
would be a question, what are people going to steal them?
He says, well, we'll just call that a long term loan. Especially,
you know, who's going to steal a light vest unless
you're actually going to use it? You know. Yeah, it
hasn't been a problem. And again on along that line
(08:23):
is we have had many more used vests donated than
would have disappeared. You know, kids, the grandkids, they outgrow
them so quick that it's great that people donate them
to us and then we put them back to work again.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, that's that's a great program that and you helped
start that up. Huh.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Well along the Lower Wisconsin River, Yeah yeah. And well
right as we speak, I just got off the phone
with my one of my cousins in Fox Lake where
I grew up, and we're going to put one in
there on Fox Lake at the city Park. But that's
getting again out of my turf, just like a the
Dells is out of my turf. But anywhere as we
can go to help for river safety, we will do it.
(09:04):
With the friends at the Lower Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
And how many searches over the years situations like this.
Have you been involved with him?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I think I'm well as far as actually finding a
drowning victim here, I think this will be number five.
But what you just mentioned earlier that the last one
in the Lower Wisconsin last year was a young man
that with two of his friends waded off from pax
Landing by the Highway twenty three bridge. And that's a
(09:36):
nice sandy beach there, and there's usually usually a lot
of acreach of sand bar even there that you can
walk out on. But if the wind's not blowing, it
looks like a pond, and people, again uninformed, just they
walk out and the next thing you know, the current's
taken them. And that the first response a human has
(10:00):
to try to swim back to where you got in trouble.
And if you just can't do it, an Olympic swimmer
can't do it. If but again with a little knowledge
ahead of time and ideally some experience with that current
getting in the water with a lifevest on. I go
several miles at a time, sometimes on a hot summer
day in the river with Joseph est On and as
(10:22):
long as you know, you know that you can do it.
And so just well, people panic, they use alter energy
and down they go. Or if they just conserve energy
to try to keep you ahead above water and just
work your way to one side or the other, you
might be a mile down the river, but you're going
to be alive.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, And that's another thing too, when the panic sets in. Unfortunately,
well fortunately because I survived. Obviously, I'm talking with you
probably thirty years ago out canoeing in western Wisconsin on
the Black River, but I think it was in like
early ninety one, and that was a bad year on
the Wisconsin as well.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Though.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
We had a lot of rain and the currents were
just incredible and I was in my life jacket, but
our canoe capsized, and going down that river and taking
in water, you just panic. I mean somebody came and
pulled me out. And I had the forethought too, because
you're supposed to put your your legs out so you're
(11:23):
not hitting your head when you're going down. Yeah, but
that was very scary, very scary.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
You know what I'm talking about. I do, I do,
but to talk about situations like that in advance, and
in fact, I say, what are you going to do
when your canoe cap size is not if you.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Know, yeah, yeah, and thank god, yeah I'd had that
conversation shortly somebody had said, now, remember make sure you
keep your legs out if for whatever reason, you get tossed.
And sure enough. So yeah, just what a well? And
what is it with? There seems to be an awful
lot of young men here that fall victim to this.
Is it considered? Uh, you're not a tough guy if
(12:06):
you don't wear the life aest or just young and
just inexperienced.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
All the above, I think pretty much. Uh, well, it's
been my personal experience that younger females are more sensible
and and I really have some great relationships with a
lot of younger females that have helped out, like you know,
intern type stuff through the years, that it is a
little bit more cautious. And so then you got you
(12:35):
proven your manhood and especially you get down with the
good old boy river rats, is you know, holding my
beery thing? And that's not good.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So and another tragedy comes to mind, uh and his
he was missing for like almost a year. I'm thinking
of the arena.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Man Parker Cruz.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yes, and that was boy, that's four years ago. Now,
just about that.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
We'll get this. I see his mom's trying to call
me right now, but I can get back to her.
Jackie and I were out on the river again yesterday
in two different boats, and she has committed herself to
help other families not have to hopefully go as long
(13:23):
as she had to go without before we you don't
find any remains and so forth.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
How do you how do you handle that sort of
I mean just overwhelming sadness being out there in the family.
I know, the family of this young man, the de
Filipo family has been out there and it's got to
be just heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, And so well, it's helped me a lot to
help Jackie because she's a tough cookie to you know,
to actually when she was out daily with her sisters
and friends and relatives looking for Parker's remains, and so
what what's the other choice is just, I guess, sit
(14:04):
on the shore and you wait for somebody to help
with stuff. But so she's taken around and give her
a little plug here with Promise Parkers, a nonprofit she started,
and we and refer to the people that help with
her as Promise Parker Warriors, And so we have a
combination of Promise Parker Warriors and members of the Friends
(14:26):
of the Lower Wisconsin, Uh, you know, working together on
anything like this, and when when we get on it
right away. When we first got word of this, we
immediately put in further downriver from what had happened, because
that's been our experience on you know, the the official
authorities and stuff. They start searching thoroughly right where it
(14:46):
happened and stuff, and they should do that. But if
we start down river right away, if for some reason
that you know, it just took whatever down there and
pops up, then we'll find it right away.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, and he was found like can Grant the Grant
County Sheriff's office found Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, So he was away by the port near the
Port Andrew Landing and he went in right by a
spring green boy at Wisconsin Riverside Resort. And then look
back to our earlier little Angela. She went in a
go with him. She was popped up down by Blue
River finally, and it's what both of them and even
this latest guy last year from Pax Landing. It's like
(15:27):
it seems to be the when the river decides to
give them up, that's when we find him.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
And I saw here too. I was just reading an
article one of the local TV stations covering this talked
with a couple also from California, who unfortunately lost their
teen son and they're out here. So it's just it's
it's a club you don't want to be in. But
I tell you what, they sure seem to be tight
knit and they go the extra mile to help out
(15:54):
when these situations happen.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yes, I saw them yesterday work in an area with
he's a professional diver and has all the other goodies
of gear, and that's in addition to Bruce's legacy. They
are up there right now, and they have more equipment
than I can even imagine to do uh, whatever it takes,
(16:18):
and including divers and drones and all that. So, lawyers,
there's everything possible as being utilized here.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Why and why do you know? It can't quite wrap
my head around. Why when the river, you know, gets
at a higher stage, why does it become so much
the current increases and more dangerous.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well it's, uh, the more water going over the dam
is just more more power. And so because it is
it's more water, it goes faster. Uh, But I don't know,
not necessarily maybe that much faster. And that's the other
fuller during low water is it don't look like it's
(16:59):
going as asked, but it still is constant, unrelenting. So
it's just uh in the lower water, like we just
talked about, you know, conservative energy, and and go down
a little bit or maybe one hundred yards down the river.
You can stand up, you see in the summer. Sure, yeah,
(17:19):
in fact I saw that once again. Know save yourself
you are and I said stand up.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
He was a little embarrassed. That'll do it.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Just stand But that is the key. You can be
h ankle deep, knee deep, and the next step you're
in over your head. So that's why you want a
word of ask even when you're waiting.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Now, as far as the Friends of the Lower Wisconsin
river Way, it's not all gloom and doom. It's not
always uh. I mean you're you're vital in these situations
when a search is underway, but uh, yeah, what do
you cover? What else does the organization have their hands in?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Sure? Yeah, Well, originally we were just a group of
people that we kind of friends and neighbors and river users.
We go out to do a river cleanup and uh,
and the dight. One nice new nice thing is we
can definitely see the results of our efforts because we
don't have to do official cleanups anymore. You know, old
(18:29):
cheese vests and tires and bicycles and all that kind
of debris. We've got that all auditor. Uh and and
so it's just maybe somebody loses something when they capsize
the canoe, like somebody that did on the Black River.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
You know, yeah, we lost our coolers and everything.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
But anyway, okay, well I had to throw that little
big in there. I'm sorry, but anyhow. Yeah, so that's
how we got started. And then they're just you know, basically,
like our mission statement says, is we're out to protect
and preserve the wilderness type experience of the Lower Wisconsin River,
which well with Riverway Law, even that Governor Tommy Thompson
(19:11):
signed in the law in nineteen eighty nine, makes it
so that structures have to be inconspicuous from the river
during lefon conditions and harmonize with colors for the surroundings
so you still feel like you're the first person out
there in a lot of places. And so that's what
we try to work hard to maintain and they're you know,
the pollution and whatever else is actually a bigger battle
(19:34):
these days than the actual physical debris. But another thing
is have you ever heard of a starhead top mental No,
I have tompsucker. Yeah, they're a smaller fish that like
the starhead top mineral. Specifically, it's a mineral with a
star on his head and the top mental because they
(19:55):
tend to swim more towards the top ten around deeper water,
and so they were thought to be a almost extinct
you but we found an abundance in some of the
back channels in the lower Wisconsin and so our science team,
which I believe is probably the best volunteer science team
in the state of Wisconsin, a lot of former dn
(20:15):
r UH water and fish and habitat specialists in there.
So we captured starhead top mentos and I'm going to
say chub suckers along with this and other fish. But
and and so we capture them down there and and
take them to a private pond one of our science
team members and rear them over the winter to make
(20:36):
sure they're good and healthy and uh and ready to
be transferred, transplanted whatever you want to call it. Above
the dam at period of sac so we get them
back up Wisconsin River where there they have disappeared, to
get them re established and and that that's been working.
And uh so, uh you know, say into the future,
(20:59):
something happens down in the Lower Wisconsin like uh, you know,
invasive carp or something comes in and start eating them all. Well,
you know, kids and grandkids could transplant them back down
to the lower Wisconsin again.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So has invasive carp been an issue?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It has not. They have been found sighted whatever they
want to call it up there. But uh, maybe it's
a fantasy of mine that I think they send some
scouts up there and hey, this is all sandy bottom here.
We like the muddy Mississippi better.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I could be dreaming. But nowaday, they haven't been a
problem like you see other places where they're jumping up
and knocking people out of their boats and stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So or the zebra zebra muscles.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, zebra brussels, we've had them, but not so bad either.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Do the rules still apply for on the Wisconsin River
are there because there are? Isn't it mandated? Or is
it just courtesy that boaters make sure they clean off
their their boats and uh, just make sure.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
There, it's mandatory. Yeah. In fact, the clean boats clean
water is the program, and so uh yeah, uh like well,
for instance, uh, when I'm just going from one riverway
boat landing to another, canoes and kayakers usually you shuttle
and all this kind of stuff. Uh, you know, it's
the same body of water. But when you go from
(22:20):
one body of water to another, you you want to
actually clean your watercraft off right there when you get
it out of water before you even go down the highway.
And then so, yes, that is a requirement. It's also
like you can't transfer minerals from one body of water
to another and your ear your ear fish has to
(22:42):
be dead before you leave that landing, which basically a
fish out of water is considered dead. You know.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
How is the fishing on the Lower Wisconsin excellent?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yes? You know, first of all, you know, every fish
that's in Wisconsin is in the Lower Wisconsin. And then
we have some that you don't find elsewhere. Our mascot
is uh we call our flow f l O flow
to paddlefish artists. Uh uh an artist local artists made
it the giant enough that floats on the water. Good.
(23:14):
We have kids and even adults, right on it in
the water. We bring it into Madison every year for
the Fools Flotilla at the River Alliance of Wisconsin Hosts
and so h the paddlefish is but the only place
you'll find it in Wisconsin and I'm aware of, is
below the damn at period of sack. Are they Well,
(23:36):
it's against the law to catch them in Wisconsin, you know,
but they are related to a sturgeon, so they do
get poached, like for the eggs for caviar type thing,
but not too bad. But other parts of the country.
I think down in Missouri they have fishing contest for
them and stuff like that, but around here they're not.
They're just they're a prehistoric monster. You know, it'd be
(23:59):
six foot long.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
You're kidding. Oh yeah, Well, after we're done, I'm going
to be poking around online so I can get.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
A Yeah, well, Robin, you can come and you can
have a ride on flow to battle fishing. You know
why event for you.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, that's that's going to be on my list of
things to do this summer.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Now.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
As far as is Lower Wisconsin or is it evenly
split amongst fishermen, kayakers, canoers, tubers, or is it more
thought of like a two being canoe sort of.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Well, first of all, I think it's nice because typically
it is lower water throughout the nice season and that
keeps a lot of the big, nasty go fast boats
away from there. Yeah, you know that the wakeboat. You'll
never see a wakeboat out there or nothing, because if
(24:52):
you do see a bigger boat out there, they maybe
come out once and after they find out how hard
it is to get it on stuck from hitting the sandbar,
they never come back again. But so yeah, you know,
the smaller fishing boats and things like that are more common,
and uh so, yeah, canoers and you know, kayaking has
(25:13):
probably become the most popular in recent times. But you know,
paddle boards and then yeah, tubing you can you do
your own or the like. The Wisconsin Riverside Resort is
a great place to do tubing. They take take you
up and put you in and you float back down
to their property there so forth.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, so definitely one of a huge recreational activity in
Wisconsin in the summer. How would you how would you
rank the lower Wisconsin compared to you know, we always
hear the Apple River or the Fox River.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, well, you know, like you know, there's other you know,
if you want, you know, a faster kind of whitewater
experience or something like that, go to one or these others.
But because yes, we have the constant, unrelenting current in
the lower Wisconsin that helps you go down river with
a nice lazy river type float, but we don't have
rapids or stuff to contend with on that. And then
(26:06):
really popular is you know, sandbar camping or even just
sandbar picnicking whatever. And especially for camping, you don't have
to reserve half a year in advance like a state
park sometimes, and you can just arrive and you pick
your own spot. And that the law was changed a
(26:27):
while back here to in order sandbar camp you have
to arrive by watercraft. And then you got to be
more river bottom. You don't camp on the high bank
at all. River bottom would be whatever, you know, like
underwater during high water. And then you can stay three
days at one spot. Nice, we'll move on to another.
So the expense is just getting there and getting home again.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, that's what a great time, especially good summertime or
early when does early fall you still I'm guessing have
people out there doing that.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, And then again back to the scenery with the
law that was put into place. Well, just looking for
Frank up here below the dells in that stretch between
Lake Delton and Decorra, which is like the upper end
of Lake Wisconsin. Similar natural with the islands and the
bottom land forests and the sandbars. But oh man, there's
(27:22):
a pink house on stilts and trailers on cinder blocks.
And they also they don't have a no glass law
that we have on the Lower Wisconsin. So it's just
kind of trashy compared to the pristine nature of the
Lower Wisconsin. I'm sorry if I'm insulting anybody, but I
think it's a hint to clean it up.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Hey have you ever been on I'm sure you have
the Kickapoo River? Holy, how is that thing crazy? Well
don't they call themselves the crookedest river in the nation
or something?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Oh? Yeah, great, great fun, great fun. You know you're
going around a ben yeah, another bend, and you're out
there for half a day, and and then your ride
comes to pick you up for the shuttle and it's
only a mile back.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
When you put in, it's nuts, it really is. Hey,
how about we're we're coming up on time here, Our
boy I could talk to you for another hour, so
Tim a lot of interesting uh information. Uh, the maze
of the nude Beach how long is? I was just
having a discussion with somebody the other day. They were
asking about it, and I'm like, now that's been closed
for It's been a few years, hasn't it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, well the infamous Maso beach. Yes, yeah, yeah, they
well sadly in my opinion, Uh, the way the d
n R finally uh like put an end to it.
It was they closed a pretty good size section of
the Maslemania unit to access by anyone, So that's you know,
(28:54):
they couldn't single out like one user group, so they
had to close access to everybody. And that's a beautiful,
beautiful spot that nobody can use right now because of that.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Eventually you think they'll they'll open it back up. Or
isn't it as simple as putting up a sign saying
nudity prohibited or what.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Well, it's so controversial, Robin that I'd like to believe that, yeah,
it can be opened again. And well my answer is
just you just need a little bit of enforcement down there.
And that was always the argument, Well, we don't have
the resources for enforcement but yeah, it doesn't take much enforcement.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Dur nudice have to ruin everything. It wasn't just that
they were nude. There was also some salacious activities from
what I had heard.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Ye, well, if I may, uh, there is a distinction
between like the Nasal beach, you know, one nice little
you know, like to all the sandbar, not an island,
but sand coming right off from the mainland in there.
That was the the beach. There wasn't problems on the beach.
(30:06):
It's in the area, that whole area around there, in
the woods and the willows in the parking lot when
a lot of ne'er do wells got kicked out of oh,
they go back in time. He got kicked out of
the waysides and he got kicked out of what Oland
Park and Madison.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh, yes, that's right Oland. Oh, I forgot all about that.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Boy.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
That was the time, all right, Tim, coming up on
time here, But thanks so much for your time today.
I've been speaking with Tim Zum. He is the president
of the Friends of the Lower Wisconsin river Way. You've
been listening to Madison for him
Good morning. I'm Robin Colbert and this is Madison Forum.
I guess this morning is Tim Zum. He is the
president of the Friends of the Lower Wisconsin Riverway. Tim,
thanks so much for joining me this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
And Tim lives in spring Green. Are you born and
raised there or did you relocate there? It sounds like
you've been there quite a while.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, I'm about a twenty two year transplant to just
a little bit north of spring Green by the spring
Green Nature Preserve, which is a beautiful place where I
raised two boys. Actually, Fox Lake, Wisconsin is my hometown.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh okay, so you are a cheesehead just relocated from
fox Lake to the Wisconsin River area, and you're right.
Spring Green just breathtaking. It's beautiful, a lot of stuff
for raising boys, for boys to go out and do. Unfortunately,
starting off with my discussion with Tim this morning, it's
focusing on a tragic situation. Talking with Tim here on Thursday,
(00:59):
just before or this Sunday airs or this airs on
Sunday morning, and at this time, twenty year old Chicago
man is still missing in the Wisconsin River.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Correct, Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, And two weeks since that boat capsized. Really just
a tragic story here. This young fella was with his
grandpa and a cousin I believe, and they were boating
on the Wisconsin River and their boat capsized. Now the
Wisconsin River is rather high, I mean, would you advise
(01:33):
boaters to maybe steer clear for a while.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, at the time they went in, it was pretty high.
In fact, at the Kilbourne Dam where they were attempting
to fish down below that ways was but twenty three
thousand cubic feet per second. Last Sunday it was down
to thirteen thousand cubic feet per second, which is still
(01:57):
kind of high, and as compared to you know, if
there's anything as normal climate anymore, as if like we're
happy to have four or five thousand could be feet
per second during the summer with the canoe and the
kayak and then sandbar cambon and everything. So yes, I
was out all day yesterday again and it's still up
(02:19):
there compared to the four or five thousand of the summertime.
But the sandbars are starting to emerge, and especially the
wooded islands the water has dropped on, and kind of
the good news is because everything hasn't greened up yet
we could see sure well through the trees, and so
if anything had been deposited onto, especially the upper end
(02:42):
of these islands during the higher water, we would have
saw it. But we did not see anything again yesterday.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, and well, you got to have some hope here
that this tragic search will be coming to an end
sooner rather than later, bringing some peace to the family, because,
as you mentioned here, conditions are improving, unless, of course,
we get another deluge of rain. You know, the river
gives off such a peaceful, lazy vibe, but it's anything
(03:13):
but I mean, it really carries some hidden dangers, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Well, yes, but then again, you know, like they tell you,
there's no such thing as safe ice for ice fishing
and so forth. And while my argument, Robin that never
really gets me anywhere is is I maintain it's more
dangerous driving from spring Green to Madison on the Highway
fourteen than it is out on the river. True, especially
(03:40):
if you don't have any knowledge of it. And you
wouldn't want anybody driving on Highway Voorteine that didn't have
some practice, some experience and so forth. And that's the
same with the river. They shouldn't be going out there
unless they've educated themselves on it. And ideally we say
come along on a group paddle or whatever first, to
(04:04):
get hands on experience, to get a respect for the constant,
unrelenting current, which is great to utilize for going down river.
You can pretty much sit and steer in a canoe
or kayak, but if you are not aware of that,
that's where problems happen.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And now I don't know anything other than with this
recent young man and his grandfather and his cousin. Of course,
the body of his grandfather was found relatively quickly, but
all from the Chicago area. If have you heard anything,
Had they had experience with the Wisconsin River? I mean,
you got to think if Grandpa came up here for this,
(04:43):
he would have had some sort of knowledge of it.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I think what you just said would be accurate. I'm
pretty sure they had some knowledge of it, but perhaps
they hadn't been out when the water was this high
or whatever. And here's the other what I've pieced together
is they were in a fourteen foot john boat, which
is a kind of a small craft, and to have
(05:09):
three adults at the same time, I question how good,
how wise that is to take it out on a
calm lake even but so because typically a john boat
that the sides on it are rather low, it doesn't
take much for turbulent water to splash over the side
and camp size. Yeah, well, that sounds like what they
(05:32):
were doing, just like one compounded thing after the next
that it just didn't bode well. But here's the main
point is they had life vests neatly stored on the boat.
If they'd been wearing those life vests, we wouldn't be
(05:54):
having this conversation right now.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
That just made my stomach sink. That was going to
be my next question as far as life fast. But
oh man, that's really.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And that's what we I'm sorry, that's what we preach
and teach is especially especially along a river. Is the
lower the Wisconsin River. Uh, when you get to the
parking lot by a boat landing, Uh, you stop your vehicle,
you take your seatbelt off, and put your life vest
(06:26):
on right there before you even take a step towards
the water's edge. And then you don't, old man, I
forgot to put my vest on or whatever. And especially
you have kids with you, they get their vest on
right there because one wrong step along the shoreline and
the current would take you down, so put it on
in the parking lot.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I thought that also maybe it was an initiative a
couple of years ago where we've had instances not even
you know, people uh falling out of a boat, you know,
people around swimming or hanging out on sandbars. Was there
like kiosks or life jackets available for us put up
around that area.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Well, at this point in time, there is several years
ago now a little seven year old girl, Angela had
what you just described, remember at the Gotham landing the
town of Buena Vista, And so that's what motivated me
and others to put in what we now have. I
(07:26):
think it's thirteen boat landings. We have free life fest
available along to Lower Wisconsin. I know it's about one
hundred and fifty miles a week. We do a run
to make sure you're well stocked with good vest and
so yes, if you need one, to take one and
when you're done put it back. And that's in conjunction
(07:47):
with the Wisconsin DNR. And there's actually a US Coast
Guard money that helps to supply the vest good.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
And people haven't been walking off with them. That's encouraging.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah. In fact, you know the original d n R
guy that I worked with, his response to that, it
would be a question, what are people going to steal them?
He says, well, we'll just call that a long term loan. Especially,
you know, who's going to steal a light vest unless
you're actually going to use it? You know. Yeah, it
hasn't been a problem. And again on along that line
(08:23):
is we have had many more used vests donated than
would have disappeared. You know, kids, the grandkids, they outgrow
them so quick that it's great that people donate them
to us and then we put them back to work again.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, that's that's a great program that and you helped
start that up. Huh.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Well along the Lower Wisconsin River, Yeah yeah. And well
right as we speak, I just got off the phone
with my one of my cousins in Fox Lake where
I grew up, and we're going to put one in
there on Fox Lake at the city Park. But that's
getting again out of my turf, just like a the
Dells is out of my turf. But anywhere as we
can go to help for river safety, we will do it.
(09:04):
With the friends at the Lower Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
And how many searches over the years situations like this.
Have you been involved with him?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I think I'm well as far as actually finding a
drowning victim here, I think this will be number five.
But what you just mentioned earlier that the last one
in the Lower Wisconsin last year was a young man
that with two of his friends waded off from pax
Landing by the Highway twenty three bridge. And that's a
(09:36):
nice sandy beach there, and there's usually usually a lot
of acreach of sand bar even there that you can
walk out on. But if the wind's not blowing, it
looks like a pond, and people, again uninformed, just they
walk out and the next thing you know, the current's
taken them. And that the first response a human has
(10:00):
to try to swim back to where you got in trouble.
And if you just can't do it, an Olympic swimmer
can't do it. If but again with a little knowledge
ahead of time and ideally some experience with that current
getting in the water with a lifevest on. I go
several miles at a time, sometimes on a hot summer
day in the river with Joseph est On and as
(10:22):
long as you know, you know that you can do it.
And so just well, people panic, they use alter energy
and down they go. Or if they just conserve energy
to try to keep you ahead above water and just
work your way to one side or the other, you
might be a mile down the river, but you're going
to be alive.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, And that's another thing too, when the panic sets in. Unfortunately,
well fortunately because I survived. Obviously, I'm talking with you
probably thirty years ago out canoeing in western Wisconsin on
the Black River, but I think it was in like
early ninety one, and that was a bad year on
the Wisconsin as well.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Though.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
We had a lot of rain and the currents were
just incredible and I was in my life jacket, but
our canoe capsized, and going down that river and taking
in water, you just panic. I mean somebody came and
pulled me out. And I had the forethought too, because
you're supposed to put your your legs out so you're
(11:23):
not hitting your head when you're going down. Yeah, but
that was very scary, very scary.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
You know what I'm talking about. I do, I do,
but to talk about situations like that in advance, and
in fact, I say, what are you going to do
when your canoe cap size is not if you.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Know, yeah, yeah, and thank god, yeah I'd had that
conversation shortly somebody had said, now, remember make sure you
keep your legs out if for whatever reason, you get tossed.
And sure enough. So yeah, just what a well? And
what is it with? There seems to be an awful
lot of young men here that fall victim to this.
Is it considered? Uh, you're not a tough guy if
(12:06):
you don't wear the life aest or just young and
just inexperienced.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
All the above, I think pretty much. Uh, well, it's
been my personal experience that younger females are more sensible
and and I really have some great relationships with a
lot of younger females that have helped out, like you know,
intern type stuff through the years, that it is a
little bit more cautious. And so then you got you
(12:35):
proven your manhood and especially you get down with the
good old boy river rats, is you know, holding my
beery thing? And that's not good.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So and another tragedy comes to mind, uh and his
he was missing for like almost a year. I'm thinking
of the arena.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Man Parker Cruz.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yes, and that was boy, that's four years ago. Now,
just about that.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
We'll get this. I see his mom's trying to call
me right now, but I can get back to her.
Jackie and I were out on the river again yesterday
in two different boats, and she has committed herself to
help other families not have to hopefully go as long
(13:23):
as she had to go without before we you don't
find any remains and so forth.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
How do you how do you handle that sort of
I mean just overwhelming sadness being out there in the family.
I know, the family of this young man, the de
Filipo family has been out there and it's got to
be just heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, And so well, it's helped me a lot to
help Jackie because she's a tough cookie to you know,
to actually when she was out daily with her sisters
and friends and relatives looking for Parker's remains, and so
what what's the other choice is just, I guess, sit
(14:04):
on the shore and you wait for somebody to help
with stuff. But so she's taken around and give her
a little plug here with Promise Parkers, a nonprofit she started,
and we and refer to the people that help with
her as Promise Parker Warriors, And so we have a
combination of Promise Parker Warriors and members of the Friends
(14:26):
of the Lower Wisconsin, Uh, you know, working together on
anything like this, and when when we get on it
right away. When we first got word of this, we
immediately put in further downriver from what had happened, because
that's been our experience on you know, the the official
authorities and stuff. They start searching thoroughly right where it
(14:46):
happened and stuff, and they should do that. But if
we start down river right away, if for some reason
that you know, it just took whatever down there and
pops up, then we'll find it right away.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, and he was found like can Grant the Grant
County Sheriff's office found Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, So he was away by the port near the
Port Andrew Landing and he went in right by a
spring green boy at Wisconsin Riverside Resort. And then look
back to our earlier little Angela. She went in a
go with him. She was popped up down by Blue
River finally, and it's what both of them and even
this latest guy last year from Pax Landing. It's like
(15:27):
it seems to be the when the river decides to
give them up, that's when we find him.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
And I saw here too. I was just reading an
article one of the local TV stations covering this talked
with a couple also from California, who unfortunately lost their
teen son and they're out here. So it's just it's
it's a club you don't want to be in. But
I tell you what, they sure seem to be tight
knit and they go the extra mile to help out
(15:54):
when these situations happen.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yes, I saw them yesterday work in an area with
he's a professional diver and has all the other goodies
of gear, and that's in addition to Bruce's legacy. They
are up there right now, and they have more equipment
than I can even imagine to do uh, whatever it takes,
(16:18):
and including divers and drones and all that. So, lawyers,
there's everything possible as being utilized here.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Why and why do you know? It can't quite wrap
my head around. Why when the river, you know, gets
at a higher stage, why does it become so much
the current increases and more dangerous.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well it's, uh, the more water going over the dam
is just more more power. And so because it is
it's more water, it goes faster. Uh, But I don't know,
not necessarily maybe that much faster. And that's the other
fuller during low water is it don't look like it's
(16:59):
going as asked, but it still is constant, unrelenting. So
it's just uh in the lower water, like we just
talked about, you know, conservative energy, and and go down
a little bit or maybe one hundred yards down the river.
You can stand up, you see in the summer. Sure, yeah,
(17:19):
in fact I saw that once again. Know save yourself
you are and I said stand up.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
He was a little embarrassed. That'll do it.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Just stand But that is the key. You can be
h ankle deep, knee deep, and the next step you're
in over your head. So that's why you want a
word of ask even when you're waiting.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Now, as far as the Friends of the Lower Wisconsin
river Way, it's not all gloom and doom. It's not
always uh. I mean you're you're vital in these situations
when a search is underway, but uh, yeah, what do
you cover? What else does the organization have their hands in?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Sure? Yeah, Well, originally we were just a group of
people that we kind of friends and neighbors and river users.
We go out to do a river cleanup and uh,
and the dight. One nice new nice thing is we
can definitely see the results of our efforts because we
don't have to do official cleanups anymore. You know, old
(18:29):
cheese vests and tires and bicycles and all that kind
of debris. We've got that all auditor. Uh and and
so it's just maybe somebody loses something when they capsize
the canoe, like somebody that did on the Black River.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
You know, yeah, we lost our coolers and everything.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
But anyway, okay, well I had to throw that little
big in there. I'm sorry, but anyhow. Yeah, so that's
how we got started. And then they're just you know, basically,
like our mission statement says, is we're out to protect
and preserve the wilderness type experience of the Lower Wisconsin River,
which well with Riverway Law, even that Governor Tommy Thompson
(19:11):
signed in the law in nineteen eighty nine, makes it
so that structures have to be inconspicuous from the river
during lefon conditions and harmonize with colors for the surroundings
so you still feel like you're the first person out
there in a lot of places. And so that's what
we try to work hard to maintain and they're you know,
the pollution and whatever else is actually a bigger battle
(19:34):
these days than the actual physical debris. But another thing
is have you ever heard of a starhead top mental No,
I have tompsucker. Yeah, they're a smaller fish that like
the starhead top mineral. Specifically, it's a mineral with a
star on his head and the top mental because they
(19:55):
tend to swim more towards the top ten around deeper water,
and so they were thought to be a almost extinct
you but we found an abundance in some of the
back channels in the lower Wisconsin and so our science team,
which I believe is probably the best volunteer science team
in the state of Wisconsin, a lot of former dn
(20:15):
r UH water and fish and habitat specialists in there.
So we captured starhead top mentos and I'm going to
say chub suckers along with this and other fish. But
and and so we capture them down there and and
take them to a private pond one of our science
team members and rear them over the winter to make
(20:36):
sure they're good and healthy and uh and ready to
be transferred, transplanted whatever you want to call it. Above
the dam at period of sac so we get them
back up Wisconsin River where there they have disappeared, to
get them re established and and that that's been working.
And uh so, uh you know, say into the future,
(20:59):
something happens down in the Lower Wisconsin like uh, you know,
invasive carp or something comes in and start eating them all. Well,
you know, kids and grandkids could transplant them back down
to the lower Wisconsin again.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So has invasive carp been an issue?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It has not. They have been found sighted whatever they
want to call it up there. But uh, maybe it's
a fantasy of mine that I think they send some
scouts up there and hey, this is all sandy bottom here.
We like the muddy Mississippi better.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I could be dreaming. But nowaday, they haven't been a
problem like you see other places where they're jumping up
and knocking people out of their boats and stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So or the zebra zebra muscles.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, zebra brussels, we've had them, but not so bad either.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Do the rules still apply for on the Wisconsin River
are there because there are? Isn't it mandated? Or is
it just courtesy that boaters make sure they clean off
their their boats and uh, just make sure.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
There, it's mandatory. Yeah. In fact, the clean boats clean
water is the program, and so uh yeah, uh like well,
for instance, uh, when I'm just going from one riverway
boat landing to another, canoes and kayakers usually you shuttle
and all this kind of stuff. Uh, you know, it's
the same body of water. But when you go from
(22:20):
one body of water to another, you you want to
actually clean your watercraft off right there when you get
it out of water before you even go down the highway.
And then so, yes, that is a requirement. It's also
like you can't transfer minerals from one body of water
to another and your ear your ear fish has to
(22:42):
be dead before you leave that landing, which basically a
fish out of water is considered dead. You know.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
How is the fishing on the Lower Wisconsin excellent?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yes? You know, first of all, you know, every fish
that's in Wisconsin is in the Lower Wisconsin. And then
we have some that you don't find elsewhere. Our mascot
is uh we call our flow f l O flow
to paddlefish artists. Uh uh an artist local artists made
it the giant enough that floats on the water. Good.
(23:14):
We have kids and even adults, right on it in
the water. We bring it into Madison every year for
the Fools Flotilla at the River Alliance of Wisconsin Hosts
and so h the paddlefish is but the only place
you'll find it in Wisconsin and I'm aware of, is
below the damn at period of sack. Are they Well,
(23:36):
it's against the law to catch them in Wisconsin, you know,
but they are related to a sturgeon, so they do
get poached, like for the eggs for caviar type thing,
but not too bad. But other parts of the country.
I think down in Missouri they have fishing contest for
them and stuff like that, but around here they're not.
They're just they're a prehistoric monster. You know, it'd be
(23:59):
six foot long.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
You're kidding. Oh yeah, Well, after we're done, I'm going
to be poking around online so I can get.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
A Yeah, well, Robin, you can come and you can
have a ride on flow to battle fishing. You know
why event for you.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, that's that's going to be on my list of
things to do this summer.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Now.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
As far as is Lower Wisconsin or is it evenly
split amongst fishermen, kayakers, canoers, tubers, or is it more
thought of like a two being canoe sort of.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Well, first of all, I think it's nice because typically
it is lower water throughout the nice season and that
keeps a lot of the big, nasty go fast boats
away from there. Yeah, you know that the wakeboat. You'll
never see a wakeboat out there or nothing, because if
(24:52):
you do see a bigger boat out there, they maybe
come out once and after they find out how hard
it is to get it on stuck from hitting the sandbar,
they never come back again. But so yeah, you know,
the smaller fishing boats and things like that are more common,
and uh so, yeah, canoers and you know, kayaking has
(25:13):
probably become the most popular in recent times. But you know,
paddle boards and then yeah, tubing you can you do
your own or the like. The Wisconsin Riverside Resort is
a great place to do tubing. They take take you
up and put you in and you float back down
to their property there so forth.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, so definitely one of a huge recreational activity in
Wisconsin in the summer. How would you how would you
rank the lower Wisconsin compared to you know, we always
hear the Apple River or the Fox River.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, well, you know, like you know, there's other you know,
if you want, you know, a faster kind of whitewater
experience or something like that, go to one or these others.
But because yes, we have the constant, unrelenting current in
the lower Wisconsin that helps you go down river with
a nice lazy river type float, but we don't have
rapids or stuff to contend with on that. And then
(26:06):
really popular is you know, sandbar camping or even just
sandbar picnicking whatever. And especially for camping, you don't have
to reserve half a year in advance like a state
park sometimes, and you can just arrive and you pick
your own spot. And that the law was changed a
(26:27):
while back here to in order sandbar camp you have
to arrive by watercraft. And then you got to be
more river bottom. You don't camp on the high bank
at all. River bottom would be whatever, you know, like
underwater during high water. And then you can stay three
days at one spot. Nice, we'll move on to another.
So the expense is just getting there and getting home again.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, that's what a great time, especially good summertime or
early when does early fall you still I'm guessing have
people out there doing that.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, And then again back to the scenery with the
law that was put into place. Well, just looking for
Frank up here below the dells in that stretch between
Lake Delton and Decorra, which is like the upper end
of Lake Wisconsin. Similar natural with the islands and the
bottom land forests and the sandbars. But oh man, there's
(27:22):
a pink house on stilts and trailers on cinder blocks.
And they also they don't have a no glass law
that we have on the Lower Wisconsin. So it's just
kind of trashy compared to the pristine nature of the
Lower Wisconsin. I'm sorry if I'm insulting anybody, but I
think it's a hint to clean it up.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Hey have you ever been on I'm sure you have
the Kickapoo River? Holy, how is that thing crazy? Well
don't they call themselves the crookedest river in the nation
or something?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Oh? Yeah, great, great fun, great fun. You know you're
going around a ben yeah, another bend, and you're out
there for half a day, and and then your ride
comes to pick you up for the shuttle and it's
only a mile back.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
When you put in, it's nuts, it really is. Hey,
how about we're we're coming up on time here, Our
boy I could talk to you for another hour, so
Tim a lot of interesting uh information. Uh, the maze
of the nude Beach how long is? I was just
having a discussion with somebody the other day. They were
asking about it, and I'm like, now that's been closed
for It's been a few years, hasn't it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, well the infamous Maso beach. Yes, yeah, yeah, they
well sadly in my opinion, Uh, the way the d
n R finally uh like put an end to it.
It was they closed a pretty good size section of
the Maslemania unit to access by anyone, So that's you know,
(28:54):
they couldn't single out like one user group, so they
had to close access to everybody. And that's a beautiful,
beautiful spot that nobody can use right now because of that.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Eventually you think they'll they'll open it back up. Or
isn't it as simple as putting up a sign saying
nudity prohibited or what.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Well, it's so controversial, Robin that I'd like to believe that, yeah,
it can be opened again. And well my answer is
just you just need a little bit of enforcement down there.
And that was always the argument, Well, we don't have
the resources for enforcement but yeah, it doesn't take much enforcement.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Dur nudice have to ruin everything. It wasn't just that
they were nude. There was also some salacious activities from
what I had heard.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Ye, well, if I may, uh, there is a distinction
between like the Nasal beach, you know, one nice little
you know, like to all the sandbar, not an island,
but sand coming right off from the mainland in there.
That was the the beach. There wasn't problems on the beach.
(30:06):
It's in the area, that whole area around there, in
the woods and the willows in the parking lot when
a lot of ne'er do wells got kicked out of oh,
they go back in time. He got kicked out of
the waysides and he got kicked out of what Oland
Park and Madison.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh, yes, that's right Oland. Oh, I forgot all about that.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Boy.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
That was the time, all right, Tim, coming up on
time here, But thanks so much for your time today.
I've been speaking with Tim Zum. He is the president
of the Friends of the Lower Wisconsin river Way. You've
been listening to Madison for him
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