May 1, 2025 • 29 mins
Through the story of Jeremiah being thrown into a muddy cistern for speaking God's truth, we discover profound lessons about standing firm in faith despite rejection and suffering.
• Jeremiah was punished merely for speaking God's truth to Israel about their coming captivity
• Standing for truth often leads to rejection, but these moments reveal what we truly believe
• Christians in other parts of the world face severe persecution while many American Christians mistake minor inconveniences for persecution
• Depression following loss can be overcome through God's intervention and deliverance
• We each choose to become either "empowered survivors or embittered victims"
• God's perfect love remains constant whether we're obedient or disobedient, in blessing or discipline
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thank you, reminder for us to recall in today's
divisive and dark culture, fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Well, welcome back, pastorSteve.
Thank you, we just did one fiveseconds ago, so here we are
doing it again.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Here we are again.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
yes, Episode 16.
Thank you all for joining usyet again.
We're going to walk through alittle bit more of Jeremiah
today, jeremiah 38, 1 through 13.
So I'll read that Jeremiah 38,1 through 13.
Now Shephetiah, the son of Matan, and Gedaliah, the son of
Pasher, and Jucal, the son ofShemaliah, and Pasher, the son
(01:02):
of Malchijahijah, heard thewords that Jeremiah was speaking
to all the people, saying Thussays the Lord, he who stays in
this city will die by the swordand by famine and by pestilence,
but he who goes out to theChaldeans will live and have his
own life and stay alive.
Thus says the Lord, this citywill certainly be given into the
hand of the army of the king ofBabylon, and he will capture it
(01:22):
.
Then the officials said to theking Now let this man be put to
death inasmuch as he isdiscouraging the men of war who
are left in the city and all thepeople by speaking such words
to them, for this man is notseeking the well-being of this
people, but rather their harm.
So king Zedekiah said Behold,he is in your hands, for the
king can do nothing against you.
(01:43):
Then they took Jeremiah andcast him into the cistern of
Malchutah, the king's son, whichwas the court of the guardhouse
, and they let Jeremiah down theropes.
Now in the cistern there was nowater but only mud, and
Jeremiah sank into the mud.
But Abed-Melech the Ethiopian,a eunuch, while he was in the
king's palace, heard that theyhad put Jeremiah into the
cistern.
(02:04):
Now the king was sitting in thegate of Benjamin and Abed-Melech
went out from the king's palaceand spoke to the king, saying
my lord the king, these men haveacted wickedly in all that they
have done to Jeremiah theprophet, whom they have cast
into the cistern and he will dieright where he is because of
the famine, for there is no morebread in the city.
Then the king commandedAbed-Melech the Ethiopian,
(02:25):
saying Take thirty men from hereunder your authority and bring
up Jeremiah the prophet from thecistern before he dies.
So Abed-Melech took the menunder his authority and went to
the king's palace, to a placebeneath the storeroom, and took
from there worn-out clothes andworn-out rags and let them down
by ropes into the cistern toJeremiah.
And worn out rags and let themdown by ropes into the cistern
to Jeremiah.
Then Abed-Melech the Ethiopiansaid to Jeremiah Now put these
(02:48):
worn out clothes and rags underyour armpits, under the ropes
and Jeremiah did so.
So they pulled Jeremiah up withthe ropes and lifted him up out
of the cistern and Jeremiahstayed in the court of the
guardhouse.
There's a few things I wanted tomention that's really
interesting here.
First, I had to dig it upbecause I was like what is a
cistern?
And I realized that cistern islimestone rock.
(03:10):
It's just a well, basically,and this one, of course, was
full of mud.
What I found interesting, steve, was that the king was.
It seemed he was afraid to justkill him outright, and scholars
believe that may have beenbecause, number one, he's a
prophet or, number two, it'sinnocent blood, so that would
(03:33):
bring guilt and wrath of.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
God upon them.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Another thing that I found interesting was Abed
Melech was a Kushite, whichliterally meant a person of
color from Nigeria, and he wasnot of God's kingdom in Israel
and Judah and all that, and soit showed compassion from
another ethnic group, aforeigner.
Jeremiah came from God for hisown people.
(04:00):
And then a foreigner fromsomeone else had compassion upon
Jeremiah.
I found that amazing, and itseems it reminds me of Jesus in
the New Testament with the storyof the Samaritan that was laid
out on the ground and nobodywanted to help him.
The priest didn't want to helphim, the religious leader didn't
want to help him.
(04:20):
So this idea we know thatIsrael's going to take captivity
, we understand that it's God'sjudgment, and we see that
Jeremiah is being punishedunjustly for him just speaking
the truth of God to Israel.
So we know that God's purposeof disciplining Israel was to
(04:43):
bring them back into arelationship with him.
In reference to Jeremiah, Ithink in many ways Christians
today, especially in othercountries I mean, we know of a
few people, through arelationship we have, that are
in prison right now for theirfaith in a country that detests
Christianity, and so I thinkfrom their perspective, they
(05:05):
understand this probably alittle more than we do.
But Jeremiah had to suffer forthe truth, and so what does that
mean for us?
And why are we in America soafraid of rejection when we
really don't have to facerejection like Christians in
other countries Right?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, you know, the reality is that it's during the
difficult times that you findout if you really believe what
it is you say you believe.
And from the beginning of time,those who have been faithful to
the Lord, who've loved him,who've tried to live for him,
(05:47):
teach his word, preach his word,have been rejected by an
element of society, those who,for whatever reason, totally
reject the love of our HeavenlyFather.
And we still live with thattoday.
And if you're going to tell thetruth, you've got to remember
is it your truth or his truth?
(06:09):
Right?
Because if it's your truth andyou're suffering, you think you
will be better prepared to dealwith the suffering when it comes
(06:31):
.
There are so many examples thatI'm thinking of right now around
the globe where Christians arejust being slaughtered left and
right as we sit here right now,slaughtered left and right as we
sit here right now.
So the average AmericanChristian has not a clue what it
means to suffer for the truthor for their faith.
(06:53):
We think some guy at work tellsus we ought to keep our
religion to ourself, and that'spersecution.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
No.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
No, that's not persecution.
No, no, that's not persecution.
And so, yeah, yeah, if you'regoing to stand on the truth, you
may very well reach a place intime where you pay a price for
that truth, and you betterdoggone well know that you
believe in what it is you'restanding for Right.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, steve, would you agree that if we begin to
stand on the truth now and makeit our life to do that, that it
would be easier to stand on thetruth when we face those
situations later?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Oh, absolutely.
What happens in standing on thetruth as you go through what I
call navigational moments inlife where you've got to make
these decisions.
Will I continue to trust theLord?
Will I stand firm in my faith?
Will I claim His truths,regardless of the outcome?
We all go through those andevery time you go through one of
(08:05):
those and you see God isfaithful, it builds an inner
strength in you.
Because you've seen him befaithful, you know he'll be
faithful, and your confidence totrust his word and who he is
becomes stronger as a believer.
And so the longer we walk withthe Lord and I don't mean just
(08:27):
attend church the longer weliterally walk with the Lord and
we live for him and trust himin that living, the stronger our
faith becomes.
And look, you need to understand.
The stronger you become in yourfaith, the test may get harder.
Yes, you need to understand.
The stronger you become in yourfaith, the test may get harder.
Yes, and God's preparing youfor that to be a testimony, a
(08:50):
witness for him.
There are no tests.
I believe that God will allowyou to go through, just for the
sole purpose of you proving thatyou trust him or you don't.
You know, the sole purpose isalways to bring him honor and
(09:11):
glory Right.
And he may be helping youfigure out who you are, but the
purpose is still to give himhonor and glory Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Right, no, that's good.
And in those moments, thosenavigating moments, as you say,
I think those are the momentsthat we grow the most.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I know and I look back in my life and those
periods of deep brokenness,those were the periods I grew
the most and experienced God themost in those times.
And there's no doubt.
I mean you would imagineJeremiah's thrown in this muddy
well, just thinking about whatwas going through his mind, you
know.
I mean he's doing the Lord'swork.
(09:54):
Surely he would have known fromthe past how Israel has treated
prophets, so he was probablyexpecting that a little bit.
Jesus himself said you havemurdered your prophets.
You know the very ones thathave come from God to speak
truth to you.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And I know from my experience serving as a pastor.
Many times and this is a small,a lot of times squeaky wheels
get the grease.
Yes, the majority of it is good, but there have been times
where I'll speak something ofGod's Word in a very truthful,
(10:34):
clear, loving way and inevitablysomeone will get angry.
Yeah, and the reason they getangry is because they're dealing
with that in their life.
Yeah, they get angry is becausethey're dealing with that in
their life and they get angrywith the one speaking it when,
in actuality, they're gettingangry with God because God is
confronting them on that issue.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, there's an old saying, a bit dog barks, and
this is true of human nature.
You're anointed.
As long as you're preachingabout somebody else's sin,
that's right.
The moment you preach abouttheir sin, then you're a problem
.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You know, it's just human nature.
I mean, go out there any Sundayand preach that we ought not be
drunkards.
Go out there any Sunday andpreach that we ought to be
dedicated people to one spousefor life.
Go out there any Sunday andpreach that we ought to be
generous in our giving to theLord because he's been so
(11:32):
generous to us.
These are things that are closeto people's hearts and it will
always get a response from themand many times that response
will be negative.
But you're exactly right.
It's because they've got a sinin their own life they've not
dealt with, and it makes themvery uncomfortable, even furious
(11:55):
, that you brought it up.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Does a life of obedience alwaysinvolve rejection at some point
?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I think so.
I think at different levels.
You know, in God's wisdom weknow that Satan asked to sift
Job and if you read between thelines there, God basically says,
yeah, you can sift Job.
(12:29):
I know Job, he's not fallingfor it.
You know, A lot of other peopleprobably couldn't manage what.
Job managed.
So I think we're tempted,tested, I think we're challenged
at different levels in ourlives, and some believers have
(12:52):
the ability to go through greatturmoil and stand firm for the
Lord to give Him the honor andglory.
Others not so much so.
I think, the Lord probably usesHis children, his servants.
The Lord probably uses hischildren, his servants, for his
kingdom as they best fit tobring him honor and glory.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Right, as you were saying that.
It just reminded me of MissJanet Jones, a good friend of
mine.
She just passed a couple yearsago.
She was 95, 96.
She lost all three of her sonsto a tragic death and her
husband, and to the day she diedshe was a faithful follower of
Jesus and anytime I would visither she'd always share about her
(13:38):
boys and she'd always startcrying.
The hurt was there but she wasstill faithful.
And I think to myself could Ihandle something like that?
It was always a thought in mymind.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Well, I can tell you this, having been through some
of those moments in my life younever know until you're going
through the fire.
It's easy, as a Christian, tosay I'll tell you what I'd do.
Truth is you don't know evenwho you are until you're in that
moment.
Truth is, you don't know evenwho you are until you're in that
(14:11):
moment.
A very real story to my heart.
In the late 80s, early 90s, Iwas pastoring a great little
country church in Alabama and wehad a set of twins, born as a
boy and a girl, and we lost thegirl at seven months.
She was born with a malignantbrain tumor.
Nobody knew, the doctors didn'tknow.
We just realized that she wasnot developing properly, started
(14:36):
taking her back to thepediatrician.
They eventually found theproblem.
They operated and she passed onthe operating table.
And so we were a young family.
We took a month off.
A wonderful friend made theircondominium in Florida available
and we took our two childrenthat we had at the time my
(15:03):
youngest had not yet been bornand we went to Florida for a
month and we worked through allof the stuff that comes with
loss.
You know, we were angry, wewere bitter, we lashed out, we
punched the walls, we, you know,we cried out my God, we did
everything any normal personwith great loss would do.
(15:27):
And then we returned home, andit was only after the church
service the first Sunday backthat several people came up to
me and said they were relieved.
And I'm like what do you mean?
You're relieved?
And they're like well, we allexpected you to resign today.
(15:48):
Wow, so them not having walkedthrough that, they expected that
nobody else could walk throughthat, that it would destroy my
faith in God and Jan's faith inGod, and that we'd walk away
from the ministry and we'd bedone.
Faith in God, and that we'dwalk away from the ministry and
(16:11):
we'd be done.
But two things happen when acouple loses a child as you
either end up in divorce, youturn on one another, or you turn
toward one another and youbecome stronger than you would
have ever been, stronger thanyou ever thought you would have
been as a couple.
And that was our situation.
Our faith became stronger thanit had ever been, and so a part
(16:35):
of me was saddened and angrythat they thought my faith was
that thin, you know Right.
And a part of me understoodthat they hadn't walked through
that fire.
So they really thought theyunderstood it, but they really
couldn't.
I tell people it's a club noparent ever wants to be a part
(16:58):
of.
So when I'm doing churchnowadays and really ever since
then and somebody's complainingbecause somebody parked where
they usually park, or thethermostat's too cold, or you
know, y'all started two minutesearly and I wasn't in yet, I'm
(17:20):
always very kind in my responsebut in my mind I'm going are you
kidding me?
Really?
I hope you never have to dealwith a real problem.
You know, yeah.
So yeah, I don't think you everknow totally.
That's when you find out whatyou do believe.
That's when you find out whoyou really are, is when they
(17:44):
throw you in the bottom of awell.
Right, right, and you sink up inthe mud, you know.
I mean they threw him withintent to let him die in that.
Well, that's right.
He knew what their intent was.
Threw him out like today'strash, you know.
And so we have no way ofknowing what was going through
(18:05):
Jeremiah's mind, what he wasstruggling with.
He may have been like Paul andSilas and singing praises to God
in the mud.
Or he may have been going.
Lord, I've been obedient.
Why is this happening?
We have no way of knowing, butwe do know he remained faithful,
whatever struggles he may havehad.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
If you don't mind me pressing in a little bit with
that, because you shared alittle bit more.
Through the years I've heardthat story and you've shared a
little bit more and more.
Two things for those listening.
Number one, for those who haveexperience or maybe even going
through that right now how doyou press into each other as a
husband and wife when thathappens, and would you mind
(18:47):
sharing how the Lord removedthat anger from you?
I remember you shared it wassometime after your baby girl
had passed and then you weredriving listening to I think it
was Maxwell Leadership CDs.
No, I was listening to praisemusic.
Praise music, okay, would youmind sharing?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah yeah, everybody deals with it a little different
.
So, number one, you've got togive each other room to deal
with it in your own way.
My wife became a part of anorganization Compassionate
Friends, I believe, is thecorrect title and what they
would do is they would go tomeetings and they'd sit in a
(19:25):
circle, like so many of thesegroups, and they'd share their
hurts and stuff, what they weredealing with and all that.
And then they connected.
If another family was about tolose a child or had just lost a
child, they would go and makevisits and try to love on these
families and stuff like that,yeah, it has its purpose.
(19:49):
But one of the things they woulddo in the organization is they
would celebrate death days Likewe celebrate birthdays, and part
of me just thought that wasmorbid and I couldn't do it.
So I had nothing to do withthat organization.
She did.
It was good for her.
I being a man, a leader in myhome, a pastor, I didn't need
(20:13):
anybody.
I was tough, I was going to getthrough it.
Now what I didn't realize isfor about two years I was in a
deep depression and the funnything is everyone around me knew
it but I didn't know it.
Maybe I didn't want to know it,maybe I wanted to tell myself I
was fine.
(20:33):
And I remember it like it wasyesterday.
We lived in Talladega, alabama.
It's about an hour over toBirmingham by interstate and
most everybody went toBirmingham to the hospital.
So I'm driving to Birmingham tomake a hospital visit and I
have a terrible voice.
So I love when I can get in thevehicle by myself and sing to
(20:55):
praise music.
So, I've got the radio on andI'm singing to praise music and
I'm just worshiping the Lorddriving down the interstate and
you've heard it said I know Ihave all my life it's like the
Lord reached down and removed aheavy coat off of me and that
was the experience I had in thatmoment and in that moment it's
(21:19):
almost like God leaned down andwhispered to me.
You know, you've been indepression and I'm removing that
today, and so I really getaggravated because I believe in
the power of God.
And look, all theseorganizations that have these
meetings and step clubs and allthese things.
(21:39):
They serve a purpose, but theyget mad with me when I preach.
God can deliver you.
Well, I understand depression.
I've been there, depression.
I've been there.
Okay, they tend to think Idon't have a clue.
But yeah, I got a clue.
I've been there, I've walkedthat road and God delivered me
(22:04):
from it in his timing, in hiswisdom, and I probably handled
it as poorly as anybody canhandle it.
You know, I would catch myselfdoing things.
Somebody would say, isn't it abeautiful day?
And I'd say, well, there'snothing beautiful about it, and
I'd walk off and ask myself, whydid I say that?
(22:26):
You know, and so I believe.
Number one you give each otherroom.
You can't expect both parentsto necessarily respond and
handle it the same way.
Number two you're forced tograpple with the question is God
(22:54):
real?
Is God real?
You know, this is way more thanI lost a job or my car broke
down or I can't pay my bills.
All those things are veryserious, but this is light years
.
Worse than that.
You're forced to reconcile inyour heart this God that I get
(23:15):
up and preach about every week,this God that I say I gave my
life to Do.
I really believe that.
Is he really real?
And Jan and I came out of thatexperience way stronger in our
belief of our God than we everthought it could be our God,
than we ever thought it could be.
(23:37):
It's hard when a couple turnstoward one another.
There's not too many thingsthat can cause friction in their
marriage the things that mostfamilies deal with a couple
that's worked through the lossof a child and come out the
other side.
They're so strong that theaverage thing that upsets most
(24:00):
people's apple cart they giggleat Right.
You know, really that's aproblem for you.
Come on, you know and I'm notbeing belittling of other
people's problems Problems arerelative.
You know, one person thinkstheir world's coming to the end
because they had a flat tire onthe way to work.
(24:20):
And then you talk to somebodywho has had a child die and
they're like give me a flat tireevery morning on the way to
work I can deal with that, youknow.
So our pain is relative.
It doesn't mean it's less realfor the person with the flat
tire, because that's as deep,maybe, as they've experienced.
(24:44):
So you give each other room todeal with it in your own way and
you have to deal with that deepquestion.
You have to deal with that deepquestion.
You know I say this in churchall the time.
Let me get this right.
We believe this God that weworship can save our soul when
we die.
(25:04):
He can take us to heaven.
We can live with him for alleternity.
But he can't help my marriage,right?
He can't help my depression,right.
And to me, I think God findsthat thinking offensive.
So, yeah, those are the twothings that immediately happen
(25:24):
in that situation.
And then, thirdly, you willdevelop a disposition.
You will learn to give Godhonor and glory for that event
that you went through, or you'llbecome a whining complainer for
the rest of your life.
And that's where I often sharethe quote.
(25:47):
It's not original to me.
We all make a decision to beempowered, survivors or
embittered victims.
It's your choice.
Nobody makes you that.
You choose what you will be,and Jan and I chose consciously
to be empowered survivors in thepower of our Savior.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Amen, amen, amen.
When you look at God's love forIsrael, and actually I want to
read Lamentations 3, 22 through24.
Real quick, and then we'll endwith that one Lamentations 3, 22
through 24.
The Lord's loving kindnessindeed never cease, for his
(26:35):
compassions never fail.
They are new every morning.
Great is your faithfulness.
The Lord is my portion, says mysoul.
Therefore I have hope in him.
The Lord is good for those whowait for him.
To the person who seeks him, itis good that he waits silently
for the salvation of the Lord.
And you know, this not onlygoes in line with Israel obeying
(26:58):
God and going to captivity,accepting that, praying for
their enemies and obeying thevoice of the Lord, but it also
resonates with us because we'reall going through something.
We're in the world, we'reexperiencing different things,
we're in different seasons oflife, and so this idea of God's
(27:19):
mercy and His love enduringforever.
We believe love to mean andfeel one way in our culture, but
how is that different from theway God reveals His love for us
in Scripture?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yes.
Well, god's love for us is theperfect love.
We, as human beings, tend toput conditions on love.
This is most evident when we'rein those painful situations.
You know, if God loves me, whydid this happen?
If God loves me, why am I goingthrough this?
(27:54):
It's a screaming statement ofwe really don't understand His
love.
God loves you when your life isgreat.
He loves you when it stinks.
He loves you everywhere inbetween.
That is the picture of aperfect love.
So God loves His people whenthey're obedient.
He still loves them whenthey're disobedient.
(28:15):
He loves them when he'srewarding them and he loves them
when he has to punish them tohelp bring them back to where
they ought to be.
That's true love in its perfectform, and we tend to think of
love, I think, unfortunately, inour culture, on a superficial
(28:36):
level.
If somebody loves me, they dowhat I want.
You know, and I think you'vededuced it to its simplest form.
When you think like that,you've deduced it to its
simplest form.
When you think like that, youknow, love is caring about a
person who may have deliberatelyhurt you.
Love is caring about a spousewho may have done something in
(28:57):
the marriage that's created hardtimes, Love is being dedicated
to another person, whether it bein a marriage relationship, a
friendship, a churchrelationship, whatever, in spite
of the circumstances.
That's a picture of God's love.
That's why we have a covenantwith Him, and you'll notice in
(29:21):
Scripture, god never breaks Hiscovenant.
His love is consistent.
It is the human beings that arealways breaking the covenant,
that's right, and God stillloves us, even though we break
the agreements that we have withHim.
And so yeah, his love is aperfect, never-ending love.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Amen, amen.
Well, I appreciate you, brother.
Thank you for being here again.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Oh, I love you too.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Thank you All right guys.
See y'all in the next one.
Thank you, reminder for us to recall in today's
divisive and dark culture, fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Well, welcome back, pastorSteve.
Thank you, we just did one fiveseconds ago, so here we are
doing it again.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Here we are again.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
yes, Episode 16.
Thank you all for joining usyet again.
We're going to walk through alittle bit more of Jeremiah
today, jeremiah 38, 1 through 13.
So I'll read that Jeremiah 38,1 through 13.
Now Shephetiah, the son of Matan, and Gedaliah, the son of
Pasher, and Jucal, the son ofShemaliah, and Pasher, the son
(01:02):
of Malchijahijah, heard thewords that Jeremiah was speaking
to all the people, saying Thussays the Lord, he who stays in
this city will die by the swordand by famine and by pestilence,
but he who goes out to theChaldeans will live and have his
own life and stay alive.
Thus says the Lord, this citywill certainly be given into the
hand of the army of the king ofBabylon, and he will capture it
(01:22):
.
Then the officials said to theking Now let this man be put to
death inasmuch as he isdiscouraging the men of war who
are left in the city and all thepeople by speaking such words
to them, for this man is notseeking the well-being of this
people, but rather their harm.
So king Zedekiah said Behold,he is in your hands, for the
king can do nothing against you.
(01:43):
Then they took Jeremiah andcast him into the cistern of
Malchutah, the king's son, whichwas the court of the guardhouse
, and they let Jeremiah down theropes.
Now in the cistern there was nowater but only mud, and
Jeremiah sank into the mud.
But Abed-Melech the Ethiopian,a eunuch, while he was in the
king's palace, heard that theyhad put Jeremiah into the
cistern.
(02:04):
Now the king was sitting in thegate of Benjamin and Abed-Melech
went out from the king's palaceand spoke to the king, saying
my lord the king, these men haveacted wickedly in all that they
have done to Jeremiah theprophet, whom they have cast
into the cistern and he will dieright where he is because of
the famine, for there is no morebread in the city.
Then the king commandedAbed-Melech the Ethiopian,
(02:25):
saying Take thirty men from hereunder your authority and bring
up Jeremiah the prophet from thecistern before he dies.
So Abed-Melech took the menunder his authority and went to
the king's palace, to a placebeneath the storeroom, and took
from there worn-out clothes andworn-out rags and let them down
by ropes into the cistern toJeremiah.
And worn out rags and let themdown by ropes into the cistern
to Jeremiah.
Then Abed-Melech the Ethiopiansaid to Jeremiah Now put these
(02:48):
worn out clothes and rags underyour armpits, under the ropes
and Jeremiah did so.
So they pulled Jeremiah up withthe ropes and lifted him up out
of the cistern and Jeremiahstayed in the court of the
guardhouse.
There's a few things I wanted tomention that's really
interesting here.
First, I had to dig it upbecause I was like what is a
cistern?
And I realized that cistern islimestone rock.
(03:10):
It's just a well, basically,and this one, of course, was
full of mud.
What I found interesting, steve, was that the king was.
It seemed he was afraid to justkill him outright, and scholars
believe that may have beenbecause, number one, he's a
prophet or, number two, it'sinnocent blood, so that would
(03:33):
bring guilt and wrath of.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
God upon them.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Another thing that I found interesting was Abed
Melech was a Kushite, whichliterally meant a person of
color from Nigeria, and he wasnot of God's kingdom in Israel
and Judah and all that, and soit showed compassion from
another ethnic group, aforeigner.
Jeremiah came from God for hisown people.
(04:00):
And then a foreigner fromsomeone else had compassion upon
Jeremiah.
I found that amazing, and itseems it reminds me of Jesus in
the New Testament with the storyof the Samaritan that was laid
out on the ground and nobodywanted to help him.
The priest didn't want to helphim, the religious leader didn't
want to help him.
(04:20):
So this idea we know thatIsrael's going to take captivity
, we understand that it's God'sjudgment, and we see that
Jeremiah is being punishedunjustly for him just speaking
the truth of God to Israel.
So we know that God's purposeof disciplining Israel was to
(04:43):
bring them back into arelationship with him.
In reference to Jeremiah, Ithink in many ways Christians
today, especially in othercountries I mean, we know of a
few people, through arelationship we have, that are
in prison right now for theirfaith in a country that detests
Christianity, and so I thinkfrom their perspective, they
(05:05):
understand this probably alittle more than we do.
But Jeremiah had to suffer forthe truth, and so what does that
mean for us?
And why are we in America soafraid of rejection when we
really don't have to facerejection like Christians in
other countries Right?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, you know, the reality is that it's during the
difficult times that you findout if you really believe what
it is you say you believe.
And from the beginning of time,those who have been faithful to
the Lord, who've loved him,who've tried to live for him,
(05:47):
teach his word, preach his word,have been rejected by an
element of society, those who,for whatever reason, totally
reject the love of our HeavenlyFather.
And we still live with thattoday.
And if you're going to tell thetruth, you've got to remember
is it your truth or his truth?
(06:09):
Right?
Because if it's your truth andyou're suffering, you think you
will be better prepared to dealwith the suffering when it comes
(06:31):
.
There are so many examples thatI'm thinking of right now around
the globe where Christians arejust being slaughtered left and
right as we sit here right now,slaughtered left and right as we
sit here right now.
So the average AmericanChristian has not a clue what it
means to suffer for the truthor for their faith.
(06:53):
We think some guy at work tellsus we ought to keep our
religion to ourself, and that'spersecution.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
No.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
No, that's not persecution.
No, no, that's not persecution.
And so, yeah, yeah, if you'regoing to stand on the truth, you
may very well reach a place intime where you pay a price for
that truth, and you betterdoggone well know that you
believe in what it is you'restanding for Right.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, steve, would you agree that if we begin to
stand on the truth now and makeit our life to do that, that it
would be easier to stand on thetruth when we face those
situations later?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Oh, absolutely.
What happens in standing on thetruth as you go through what I
call navigational moments inlife where you've got to make
these decisions.
Will I continue to trust theLord?
Will I stand firm in my faith?
Will I claim His truths,regardless of the outcome?
We all go through those andevery time you go through one of
(08:05):
those and you see God isfaithful, it builds an inner
strength in you.
Because you've seen him befaithful, you know he'll be
faithful, and your confidence totrust his word and who he is
becomes stronger as a believer.
And so the longer we walk withthe Lord and I don't mean just
(08:27):
attend church the longer weliterally walk with the Lord and
we live for him and trust himin that living, the stronger our
faith becomes.
And look, you need to understand.
The stronger you become in yourfaith, the test may get harder.
Yes, you need to understand.
The stronger you become in yourfaith, the test may get harder.
Yes, and God's preparing youfor that to be a testimony, a
(08:50):
witness for him.
There are no tests.
I believe that God will allowyou to go through, just for the
sole purpose of you proving thatyou trust him or you don't.
You know, the sole purpose isalways to bring him honor and
(09:11):
glory Right.
And he may be helping youfigure out who you are, but the
purpose is still to give himhonor and glory Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Right, no, that's good.
And in those moments, thosenavigating moments, as you say,
I think those are the momentsthat we grow the most.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I know and I look back in my life and those
periods of deep brokenness,those were the periods I grew
the most and experienced God themost in those times.
And there's no doubt.
I mean you would imagineJeremiah's thrown in this muddy
well, just thinking about whatwas going through his mind, you
know.
I mean he's doing the Lord'swork.
(09:54):
Surely he would have known fromthe past how Israel has treated
prophets, so he was probablyexpecting that a little bit.
Jesus himself said you havemurdered your prophets.
You know the very ones thathave come from God to speak
truth to you.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And I know from my experience serving as a pastor.
Many times and this is a small,a lot of times squeaky wheels
get the grease.
Yes, the majority of it is good, but there have been times
where I'll speak something ofGod's Word in a very truthful,
(10:34):
clear, loving way and inevitablysomeone will get angry.
Yeah, and the reason they getangry is because they're dealing
with that in their life.
Yeah, they get angry is becausethey're dealing with that in
their life and they get angrywith the one speaking it when,
in actuality, they're gettingangry with God because God is
confronting them on that issue.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, there's an old saying, a bit dog barks, and
this is true of human nature.
You're anointed.
As long as you're preachingabout somebody else's sin,
that's right.
The moment you preach abouttheir sin, then you're a problem
.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You know, it's just human nature.
I mean, go out there any Sundayand preach that we ought not be
drunkards.
Go out there any Sunday andpreach that we ought to be
dedicated people to one spousefor life.
Go out there any Sunday andpreach that we ought to be
generous in our giving to theLord because he's been so
(11:32):
generous to us.
These are things that are closeto people's hearts and it will
always get a response from themand many times that response
will be negative.
But you're exactly right.
It's because they've got a sinin their own life they've not
dealt with, and it makes themvery uncomfortable, even furious
(11:55):
, that you brought it up.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Does a life of obedience alwaysinvolve rejection at some point
?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I think so.
I think at different levels.
You know, in God's wisdom weknow that Satan asked to sift
Job and if you read between thelines there, God basically says,
yeah, you can sift Job.
(12:29):
I know Job, he's not fallingfor it.
You know, A lot of other peopleprobably couldn't manage what.
Job managed.
So I think we're tempted,tested, I think we're challenged
at different levels in ourlives, and some believers have
(12:52):
the ability to go through greatturmoil and stand firm for the
Lord to give Him the honor andglory.
Others not so much so.
I think, the Lord probably usesHis children, his servants.
The Lord probably uses hischildren, his servants, for his
kingdom as they best fit tobring him honor and glory.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Right, as you were saying that.
It just reminded me of MissJanet Jones, a good friend of
mine.
She just passed a couple yearsago.
She was 95, 96.
She lost all three of her sonsto a tragic death and her
husband, and to the day she diedshe was a faithful follower of
Jesus and anytime I would visither she'd always share about her
(13:38):
boys and she'd always startcrying.
The hurt was there but she wasstill faithful.
And I think to myself could Ihandle something like that?
It was always a thought in mymind.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Well, I can tell you this, having been through some
of those moments in my life younever know until you're going
through the fire.
It's easy, as a Christian, tosay I'll tell you what I'd do.
Truth is you don't know evenwho you are until you're in that
moment.
Truth is, you don't know evenwho you are until you're in that
(14:11):
moment.
A very real story to my heart.
In the late 80s, early 90s, Iwas pastoring a great little
country church in Alabama and wehad a set of twins, born as a
boy and a girl, and we lost thegirl at seven months.
She was born with a malignantbrain tumor.
Nobody knew, the doctors didn'tknow.
We just realized that she wasnot developing properly, started
(14:36):
taking her back to thepediatrician.
They eventually found theproblem.
They operated and she passed onthe operating table.
And so we were a young family.
We took a month off.
A wonderful friend made theircondominium in Florida available
and we took our two childrenthat we had at the time my
(15:03):
youngest had not yet been bornand we went to Florida for a
month and we worked through allof the stuff that comes with
loss.
You know, we were angry, wewere bitter, we lashed out, we
punched the walls, we, you know,we cried out my God, we did
everything any normal personwith great loss would do.
(15:27):
And then we returned home, andit was only after the church
service the first Sunday backthat several people came up to
me and said they were relieved.
And I'm like what do you mean?
You're relieved?
And they're like well, we allexpected you to resign today.
(15:48):
Wow, so them not having walkedthrough that, they expected that
nobody else could walk throughthat, that it would destroy my
faith in God and Jan's faith inGod, and that we'd walk away
from the ministry and we'd bedone.
Faith in God, and that we'dwalk away from the ministry and
(16:11):
we'd be done.
But two things happen when acouple loses a child as you
either end up in divorce, youturn on one another, or you turn
toward one another and youbecome stronger than you would
have ever been, stronger thanyou ever thought you would have
been as a couple.
And that was our situation.
Our faith became stronger thanit had ever been, and so a part
(16:35):
of me was saddened and angrythat they thought my faith was
that thin, you know Right.
And a part of me understoodthat they hadn't walked through
that fire.
So they really thought theyunderstood it, but they really
couldn't.
I tell people it's a club noparent ever wants to be a part
(16:58):
of.
So when I'm doing churchnowadays and really ever since
then and somebody's complainingbecause somebody parked where
they usually park, or thethermostat's too cold, or you
know, y'all started two minutesearly and I wasn't in yet, I'm
(17:20):
always very kind in my responsebut in my mind I'm going are you
kidding me?
Really?
I hope you never have to dealwith a real problem.
You know, yeah.
So yeah, I don't think you everknow totally.
That's when you find out whatyou do believe.
That's when you find out whoyou really are, is when they
(17:44):
throw you in the bottom of awell.
Right, right, and you sink up inthe mud, you know.
I mean they threw him withintent to let him die in that.
Well, that's right.
He knew what their intent was.
Threw him out like today'strash, you know.
And so we have no way ofknowing what was going through
(18:05):
Jeremiah's mind, what he wasstruggling with.
He may have been like Paul andSilas and singing praises to God
in the mud.
Or he may have been going.
Lord, I've been obedient.
Why is this happening?
We have no way of knowing, butwe do know he remained faithful,
whatever struggles he may havehad.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
If you don't mind me pressing in a little bit with
that, because you shared alittle bit more.
Through the years I've heardthat story and you've shared a
little bit more and more.
Two things for those listening.
Number one, for those who haveexperience or maybe even going
through that right now how doyou press into each other as a
husband and wife when thathappens, and would you mind
(18:47):
sharing how the Lord removedthat anger from you?
I remember you shared it wassometime after your baby girl
had passed and then you weredriving listening to I think it
was Maxwell Leadership CDs.
No, I was listening to praisemusic.
Praise music, okay, would youmind sharing?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah yeah, everybody deals with it a little different
.
So, number one, you've got togive each other room to deal
with it in your own way.
My wife became a part of anorganization Compassionate
Friends, I believe, is thecorrect title and what they
would do is they would go tomeetings and they'd sit in a
(19:25):
circle, like so many of thesegroups, and they'd share their
hurts and stuff, what they weredealing with and all that.
And then they connected.
If another family was about tolose a child or had just lost a
child, they would go and makevisits and try to love on these
families and stuff like that,yeah, it has its purpose.
(19:49):
But one of the things they woulddo in the organization is they
would celebrate death days Likewe celebrate birthdays, and part
of me just thought that wasmorbid and I couldn't do it.
So I had nothing to do withthat organization.
She did.
It was good for her.
I being a man, a leader in myhome, a pastor, I didn't need
(20:13):
anybody.
I was tough, I was going to getthrough it.
Now what I didn't realize isfor about two years I was in a
deep depression and the funnything is everyone around me knew
it but I didn't know it.
Maybe I didn't want to know it,maybe I wanted to tell myself I
was fine.
(20:33):
And I remember it like it wasyesterday.
We lived in Talladega, alabama.
It's about an hour over toBirmingham by interstate and
most everybody went toBirmingham to the hospital.
So I'm driving to Birmingham tomake a hospital visit and I
have a terrible voice.
So I love when I can get in thevehicle by myself and sing to
(20:55):
praise music.
So, I've got the radio on andI'm singing to praise music and
I'm just worshiping the Lorddriving down the interstate and
you've heard it said I know Ihave all my life it's like the
Lord reached down and removed aheavy coat off of me and that
was the experience I had in thatmoment and in that moment it's
(21:19):
almost like God leaned down andwhispered to me.
You know, you've been indepression and I'm removing that
today, and so I really getaggravated because I believe in
the power of God.
And look, all theseorganizations that have these
meetings and step clubs and allthese things.
(21:39):
They serve a purpose, but theyget mad with me when I preach.
God can deliver you.
Well, I understand depression.
I've been there, depression.
I've been there.
Okay, they tend to think Idon't have a clue.
But yeah, I got a clue.
I've been there, I've walkedthat road and God delivered me
(22:04):
from it in his timing, in hiswisdom, and I probably handled
it as poorly as anybody canhandle it.
You know, I would catch myselfdoing things.
Somebody would say, isn't it abeautiful day?
And I'd say, well, there'snothing beautiful about it, and
I'd walk off and ask myself, whydid I say that?
(22:26):
You know, and so I believe.
Number one you give each otherroom.
You can't expect both parentsto necessarily respond and
handle it the same way.
Number two you're forced tograpple with the question is God
(22:54):
real?
Is God real?
You know, this is way more thanI lost a job or my car broke
down or I can't pay my bills.
All those things are veryserious, but this is light years
.
Worse than that.
You're forced to reconcile inyour heart this God that I get
(23:15):
up and preach about every week,this God that I say I gave my
life to Do.
I really believe that.
Is he really real?
And Jan and I came out of thatexperience way stronger in our
belief of our God than we everthought it could be our God,
than we ever thought it could be.
(23:37):
It's hard when a couple turnstoward one another.
There's not too many thingsthat can cause friction in their
marriage the things that mostfamilies deal with a couple
that's worked through the lossof a child and come out the
other side.
They're so strong that theaverage thing that upsets most
(24:00):
people's apple cart they giggleat Right.
You know, really that's aproblem for you.
Come on, you know and I'm notbeing belittling of other
people's problems Problems arerelative.
You know, one person thinkstheir world's coming to the end
because they had a flat tire onthe way to work.
(24:20):
And then you talk to somebodywho has had a child die and
they're like give me a flat tireevery morning on the way to
work I can deal with that, youknow.
So our pain is relative.
It doesn't mean it's less realfor the person with the flat
tire, because that's as deep,maybe, as they've experienced.
(24:44):
So you give each other room todeal with it in your own way and
you have to deal with that deepquestion.
You have to deal with that deepquestion.
You know I say this in churchall the time.
Let me get this right.
We believe this God that weworship can save our soul when
we die.
(25:04):
He can take us to heaven.
We can live with him for alleternity.
But he can't help my marriage,right?
He can't help my depression,right.
And to me, I think God findsthat thinking offensive.
So, yeah, those are the twothings that immediately happen
(25:24):
in that situation.
And then, thirdly, you willdevelop a disposition.
You will learn to give Godhonor and glory for that event
that you went through, or you'llbecome a whining complainer for
the rest of your life.
And that's where I often sharethe quote.
(25:47):
It's not original to me.
We all make a decision to beempowered, survivors or
embittered victims.
It's your choice.
Nobody makes you that.
You choose what you will be,and Jan and I chose consciously
to be empowered survivors in thepower of our Savior.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Amen, amen, amen.
When you look at God's love forIsrael, and actually I want to
read Lamentations 3, 22 through24.
Real quick, and then we'll endwith that one Lamentations 3, 22
through 24.
The Lord's loving kindnessindeed never cease, for his
(26:35):
compassions never fail.
They are new every morning.
Great is your faithfulness.
The Lord is my portion, says mysoul.
Therefore I have hope in him.
The Lord is good for those whowait for him.
To the person who seeks him, itis good that he waits silently
for the salvation of the Lord.
And you know, this not onlygoes in line with Israel obeying
(26:58):
God and going to captivity,accepting that, praying for
their enemies and obeying thevoice of the Lord, but it also
resonates with us because we'reall going through something.
We're in the world, we'reexperiencing different things,
we're in different seasons oflife, and so this idea of God's
(27:19):
mercy and His love enduringforever.
We believe love to mean andfeel one way in our culture, but
how is that different from theway God reveals His love for us
in Scripture?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yes.
Well, god's love for us is theperfect love.
We, as human beings, tend toput conditions on love.
This is most evident when we'rein those painful situations.
You know, if God loves me, whydid this happen?
If God loves me, why am I goingthrough this?
(27:54):
It's a screaming statement ofwe really don't understand His
love.
God loves you when your life isgreat.
He loves you when it stinks.
He loves you everywhere inbetween.
That is the picture of aperfect love.
So God loves His people whenthey're obedient.
He still loves them whenthey're disobedient.
(28:15):
He loves them when he'srewarding them and he loves them
when he has to punish them tohelp bring them back to where
they ought to be.
That's true love in its perfectform, and we tend to think of
love, I think, unfortunately, inour culture, on a superficial
(28:36):
level.
If somebody loves me, they dowhat I want.
You know, and I think you'vededuced it to its simplest form.
When you think like that,you've deduced it to its
simplest form.
When you think like that, youknow, love is caring about a
person who may have deliberatelyhurt you.
Love is caring about a spousewho may have done something in
(28:57):
the marriage that's created hardtimes, Love is being dedicated
to another person, whether it bein a marriage relationship, a
friendship, a churchrelationship, whatever, in spite
of the circumstances.
That's a picture of God's love.
That's why we have a covenantwith Him, and you'll notice in
(29:21):
Scripture, god never breaks Hiscovenant.
His love is consistent.
It is the human beings that arealways breaking the covenant,
that's right, and God stillloves us, even though we break
the agreements that we have withHim.
And so yeah, his love is aperfect, never-ending love.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Amen, amen.
Well, I appreciate you, brother.
Thank you for being here again.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Oh, I love you too.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Thank you All right guys.
See y'all in the next one.
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