June 26, 2025 • 25 mins
Discipleship requires complete surrender to Christ as both Savior and Lord, transforming belief into obedience and reproducing what God has placed inside us.
• Discipleship at its core means obedience and duplication of Christ's teachings
• Evangelism and discipleship function as two sides of the same coin
• Churches should balance winning the lost with developing believers
• Anything not growing spiritually is dying
• True salvation inherently includes lordship
Covenant Church
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Amen are for us to recall in today's divisive and
dark culture, From foundationaltruths and scripture to the hot
topics of today's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back to the Main Thing Podcast with Pastor
Steve.
So thankful you guys joined ustoday for discipleship.
We're going to talk aboutdiscipleship today, so, pastor
Steve, thanks for being herewith us as always and I want to
talk about discipleship today.
So, pastor Steve, thanks forbeing here with us, as always,
and I want to talk aboutdiscipleship today.
But let's start with Matthew 28, 19 through 20.
This is a verse that we kind ofbuild what we try to do here on
(00:55):
.
So it says Go, therefore, andmake disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name ofthe Father and of the Son and of
the Holy Spirit, teaching themto observe all that I have
commanded you.
You know there's so much thatgoes into the definition of
discipleship.
Would you just start today bygiving us your definition of
discipleship?
What does it mean to be adisciple?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, discipleship in its simplest form is obedience.
I mean, we call that the GreatCommission because it is the
marching orders that Jesus givesus before he returns to heaven.
This is your job, it's what I'mleaving you here to do, and
(01:35):
that is to teach others what youhave.
And so, to further expound onthe simple definition, it is
duplication.
It's reproducing that which isalready inside of us in other
people.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
You know, when I first became a minister of
education, way back when thisverse stood out to me and you
had just basically said it in 2Timothy, where Paul tells
Timothy to me, and you had justbasically said it in 2 Timothy,
where Paul tells Timothy.
You know what you've heard fromme in the presence of many
witnesses entrust to faithfulmen who will be able to teach
others also, and to me that isthe epitome of duplication.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So what are some ways here at Covenant, what are some
ways we seek to build disciples?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Well, we do that primarily here through covenant
groups.
We have many, many groups thatmeet several times a year,
hopefully with the purpose ofhelping a person go deeper in
their faith walk, but also tolearn to get outside of
themselves and to serve tominister in a real and
(02:45):
meaningful way.
That's when a person begins tobecome a real disciple.
It's not just in what webelieve, it's in what we live
out also, and so we have severalof us on our team here that are
ministers that have smallgroups outside of the C groups,
(03:07):
covenant groups, where we try tomentor and bring people along,
and so it's a process.
You never totally achieve it,but you've got to always be
working toward it, and so that'sthe primary means in which we
try to accomplish that.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So you know, we've got so many different flavors of
small groups here or covenantgroups.
We've got Sunday morning, whatwe kind of think of as
traditional Sunday school.
We've got groups that meet inhalls.
We've got Wednesday night Biblestudies, and I think all of
those can be effective.
All of those can be weak.
But what does a reallyeffective covenant group look
like to you?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Well, in my mind, an effective covenant group is a
group that's going deep in theWord in some way and then, as a
group, coming out of that study,living it better, or maybe for
the first time in their lives,as they go about their day,
(04:10):
their work, their recreation,whatever, understanding that
they are a representative.
An ambassador means literallythat, and Paul tells us we're
ambassadors, an ambassador ofthe Lord Jesus Christ.
They're representing him asthey go to work, as they go to
play, as they live in theirhomes, and so that's when it
(04:34):
becomes successful discipleship,when it is actually lived out.
It's more than academia, it'smore than theoretical in our
mind, it becomes reality.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You know, when you look at discipleship and at
least what we're trying to dohere, it kind of falls into four
categories.
You know covenant groups,prayer, evangelism,
accountability.
Talk a little bit about prayer.
How do the covenant groups helpus to become better prayer
people?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Talk a little bit about prayer.
How do the covenant groups helpus to become better prayer
people?
Well, we've even had covenantgroups that have focused
primarily on prayer at differenttimes.
I think probably the anemia ofthe modern-day church is because
we have made prayer a token.
(05:27):
You know, we pray before westart the service or we pray at
some point in the service andunfortunately that's usually to
get us from point A to point Bin the service.
Prayer has to be so much morethan that.
It's got to be personal, yetit's got to be corporate.
Personal, yet it's got to becorporate.
(05:49):
It's got to be general, yetit's got to be specific.
And I think as we pray we lineup more Our prayer lives, help
us line up with God's will forour lives, and therefore we're
more willing as individuals toenter into a real experience of
discipleship rather than justtalking about it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You know, if we could go back in Southern Baptist
history or church history overthe years, I remember growing up
as a kid we had Wednesday nightprayer meeting and it was a
prayer meeting.
It was for the sole purpose ofcoming to pray.
Why do you think that's changedover the years?
Because we haven't doneanything like that here at
Covenant in a long time and Ithink it's just kind of fallen
(06:35):
out of use in churches.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Yeah, if you'll remember, there was a time not
too many years ago I lose trackwhere we tried to do prayer
focus on Wednesday nights and westarted the first Wednesday
night I remember vividly we had130 people.
I was so excited we had thatmany people interested in coming
to pray and then it began todwindle, week after week after
(07:00):
week until we had like 15.
I think we fall into the trapof trying to scratch people's
itches what will they come for?
You know, we tend sometimes ormost of the times, I think all
churches do to design theirprogramming and I use that word
(07:23):
loosely their ministry aroundwhat will get people in the door
.
And sometimes I think we'd bebetter served, especially in
prayer, not to worry about howmany come, but that some come,
that some pray.
I think you know, probably intruth, 20 people in serious
(07:46):
prayer every week would be a lotmore beneficial to the kingdom
than 100 people sitting in aBible study and nothing
happening from it.
And so, yeah, I think probablywe're as guilty as anybody of
not following through because wedidn't see the interest in the
(08:10):
activity.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And I think what I hear you saying is we've made it
an event, not a lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I think so, I think so yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That so reminds me of one of our covenant groups is
on spiritual disciplines, andone of the spiritual disciplines
it talks about is servanthood,and it makes a distinction.
It says you either are aservant or you do services, and
the goal is not to.
I'm going to serve when theopportunity comes up.
(08:39):
The goal is I'm a servant,always ready, and I think it's
the same thing with prayer,right, I'm guessing what
happened was well, we're goingto pray because we're having an
event at church, not that it'sbecome a lifestyle.
Yes, I agree, and I thinkprayer leads into.
The next one I want to talkabout is evangelism, and forgive
me for not remembering thereference at the moment, but
(09:00):
where Jesus said you know, thefields are wide unto harvest,
pray to the Lord of the harvestthat he'd send workers out into
the field.
How does praying about workerslead into evangelism?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Well, we've got to understand that evangelism and
discipleship are two separatesides of the same coin.
You have groups and churchestoday that'll either focus
solely on evangelism, absolutelyconvinced they're the only ones
doing it right in the world.
But the truth is, to do itright, you have to do both.
(09:38):
You can't disciple someonewho's not committed to Christ,
who's not been saved, who hasn'tcome to the Lord.
All you're doing is anintellectual exercise.
If you've got lost peopleyou're trying to disciple.
What a lot of churches are doingis they just try to steal
somebody that got saved over theevangelistic church and then
(09:58):
tell them that they're going toteach them how to follow Jesus,
and I think that's a sad stateon today's church.
But what we've got tounderstand is there's got to be
a healthy balance.
We need to be people who shareour faith but then engage.
Engage with them and help them,begin the processes of growing,
(10:25):
whether that's getting themthat initial book where they
learn what it is they've done,getting them in that first few
classes of covenant groups tounderstand what it means to be a
Christian, what it means thatGod has gifted me, what he
expects from me.
You know, and we can sit hereand say and I say this again not
(10:51):
to disparage anybody, and I saythis again not to disparage
anybody.
But there are churches that arenot growing because two people
got saved last year and theywant to focus on those two
people Almost until they cangive them an ACT-style academic
(11:14):
test to prove that they loveJesus.
Well, in the book of Acts, whenthe church exploded by the
thousands, it didn't stopgrowing because they were
discipling people, and I thinkthis keeps a lot of us from
growing evangelistically,because it feels overwhelming
(11:34):
sometimes, and so we've got totry to keep a balance on that, I
think, at all costs.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, you know, I think at this point in history
we haven't come up with anythingnew in the church that hadn't
been done before.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
No, there's nothing new.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And so when you say discipleship and evangelism are
two sides of the same coin, andso when you say discipleship and
evangelism are two sides of thesame coin, it makes me think
back to the 1950s and 60s, whenchurches used their Sunday
school as an evangelistic tool.
Yes, and you had.
It was a natural extension, andwe've gotten away from that, oh
yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Yeah, well, a lot of people are very critical.
In the 70s and 80s, even intothe 90s, there was taught that
you use Sunday school as anevangelistic tool.
And you went out in thecommunity and you signed people
up for Sunday school and whatthey knew was, if you signed up
10 people for Sunday school, oneor two would actually come and
(12:34):
they would see people come tothe Lord as that result.
And you had what I call thechurch anchors you know we shall
not be moved who wereabsolutely vehement that we were
putting all these people on thechurch rolls that were lost,
and that wasn't the case at all.
You were putting them on aSunday school roll, not the
(12:57):
church roll, and so there wasconflict within the church body.
Almost everywhere you looked,they were ruining the church.
But the bottom line isconventions, denominations,
exist to try to help us to do,or to get us to do, what it is.
(13:21):
We ought to already be doing so.
If you're a church thatactually is trying to do
evangelism, train your people insome avenues toward evangelism.
You're trying to dodiscipleship.
You don't really need anoutside entity to come in and
help you.
You're being obedient, andthat's the bottom line of
(13:44):
discipleship is obedience.
That's, in a nutshell, what itis.
Jesus said, observing allthings that I taught you.
Now here's one of the goodthings about what we did in
times past Forever.
On Sunday night you met for anhour before church in what we
(14:04):
call the old school trainingunion.
But in that old school trainingunion you taught people the
doctrines of the faith.
You taught people the doctrinesof the faith, and so you had an
(14:31):
average church member who iswe've all tried to get so cute
and do it in the latest,greatest, coolest way I'm afraid
the average church membersitting in church.
They can't explain much to youat all.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
You know it's funny.
You talked about the criticismearlier with the Sunday School
stuff.
I believe it was Dwight Moodywhen he told somebody well, I
like my way of doing evangelismmore than your way of not doing
evangelism.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I've always loved that quote.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, yeah, because there's always somebody that
knows what you're doing wrong.
Yep, yeah, they're everywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
So kind of falling into.
The next thing I want to talkabout is accountability.
Where does accountability fallin with discipleship?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I think it's a part of discipleship, it's a part of
the DNA of discipleship.
You know, we live in thisculture, in our society, where
it's my life.
Don't tell me what to do, it'snone of your business.
But when it comes to the familyof God, we are to be
accountable to one another andwe should, I think, very
(15:36):
lovingly encourage one another,almost in an aggravating way, to
continue to grow, continue tostretch, continue to serve the
Lord.
If you're not growing I believethis firmly anything that's not
growing is dying.
We know that even concrete willgrow stronger for 28 days after
(16:00):
it's poured, and after that itbegins to deteriorate, and so
anything not growing is dying.
So what we have fooled ourselvesinto as the Christian church is
we have all these peoplesitting in church on Sunday and
so many of them are not growing.
They've not grown in decades,yet somehow or another they're
(16:30):
lulled into this false assurancethat they're good with God.
And look, Jesus tells us tocount the cost.
He tells us that if we put ourhand to the plow and look back,
we're not fit for the kingdom ofGod.
We are told by the Gospels upfront.
This is an all-in commitment,it's not an optional lifestyle
and I'm afraid we've painted apicture to people.
(16:51):
If they'll just believe, theydon't have to do anything.
Yet James tells us our faithwithout works is totally dead,
it's useless.
I think that's pretty clear.
It's a no faith and while Iknow many would argue with me on
this, can you truly say aperson is saved who has
(17:15):
absolutely no faith?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
That reminds me.
I think all of us in here havegotten the question over the
years do I have to be baptizedto be a Christian?
And my answer has always beenokay.
Baptism is the first thing Godasked you to do after you're
saved.
If you tell God no to the veryfirst thing he asks you to do, I
think your answer is rightthere.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
You don't know God.
Well, at the very minimum, youdidn't count the cost.
You don't understand what yousigned up for.
You know, and I think look, I'mnot trying to be mean-spirited,
but because we obviouslybelieve in evangelism here we
practice it.
We believe in church growth.
I think this new paradigm inAmerica today, where you know
(18:05):
it's mama, me and us three andwe were real Christians, that's
why our church doesn't grow is alie of Satan.
But I believe the other side ofthat is if we're not careful,
we're so busy trying to fill theseats that we don't teach
people the truth of what itmeans to be a disciple of the
(18:27):
Lord Jesus Christ.
It is a total lifestyle change.
It is going all in in a newdirection.
That's what repentance is, andyou can't be saved without
repentance.
So again, can we say a personis a disciple?
Are they saved?
Are they a part of the familyof God?
(18:48):
If they came in, but they'renot all in?
You know it was a big thingthat went on in the 80s and 90s
and still in some circles thisthing called lordship salvation.
And so what we have is the samepastor that baptized 100 people
(19:10):
last year.
He baptized 75 of the same 100next year because they were
saved but they didn't acceptlordship salvation.
Well, I would contend they werenever saved.
Right, because lordship issalvation, that's right Lordship
is salvation, and so it becomesgreat in the denominational
(19:32):
papers.
And so it becomes great in thedenominational papers.
Your church is recognized forbeing one of the highest-ranking
baptisms in your denomination.
But the reality is all you didwas manipulate people.
I mean, you're either saved oryou're lost.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
There's no in-between there are no steps there to be
more and more saved.
It's like being a little bitpregnant that doesn't exist.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And so we played word games with people.
So I would say and I standfirmly behind this, if you're
not growing in your faith andthat's what it means to be a
disciple growing, becoming morelike Christ, and that results in
how you live out your dailylife, then you're lost, right?
(20:18):
I believe that firmly.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
You know I want to circle back to something you
said earlier, and look, all theministers here.
We can't answer to this becausewe'd have all been in grade
school when this happened, butyou were already pastoring, so
I'll let you answer this.
But back in the mid-'80s when,like Willow Creek, saddleback,
all those big churches, theystarted doing something that
(20:40):
kind of came to be termedseeker-sensitive and you had
talked about we fall into thetrap of just let's get them in
the pews, how do you think thatidea of seeker-sensitive
affected discipleship over theyears, when maybe churches
didn't quite understand whatWillow Creek or Saddleback meant
by seeker-sensitive?
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I sat under Bill Hybels.
I sat under Rick Warren.
I was in the room with them.
I heard their hearts.
I think if you really listen towhat they said, their idea of
Seeker Sensitive was make yourbuilding aesthetically pleasing,
(21:19):
clean up your environment, yourparking lots, paint the place,
have comfortable seating.
You know it was let's don'tcreate barriers that keep people
(21:39):
from wanting to come in.
And their hearts both of themwas to see people come to Christ
.
Now the argument against thatwould be is that what they did?
They tried to create a servicewhere lost people were
comfortable, and I would saythat you got to be careful with
that.
You can go too far where youcreate an environment where you
(22:03):
don't want to offend anybody,but we know the gospel is
offensive.
We have people walk outroutinely here.
I never try to offend them, butthe gospel is offensive.
They will get up and leave.
So I think their hearts wereright.
I don't want to disparage eitherone of those men.
Think their hearts were right.
(22:25):
I don't want to disparageeither one of those men, but I
think there were areas that theywent.
I heard them teach thisthemselves.
I heard Rick Warren say theydidn't sing the hymns because
you know you're singing the oldhymn, the Blood from Emmanuel's
Veins, and people start lookingaround the room.
You're thinking you're going tosacrifice a cat or something
(22:46):
you know.
Well, maybe in SouthernCalifornia they would think that
, but in the Southeast I don'tthink anybody would confuse it.
I don't think anybody wouldmisunderstand it.
So I think there's areas whereSecret S sensitive went too far,
there's no doubt.
I think there are areas whereit's still going too far, where
(23:12):
churches are just trying to bethe cool church, the in-church,
the flavor of the month, and Ithink that's very dangerous.
You're creating a comfortablefalse believism.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, if I could ask you onefinal question.
Somebody walks up to you on aSunday and they say Pastor Steve
, I really want to know what itmeans to be a disciple.
What do I do?
How would you answer thatquestion for somebody ready to
be a disciple?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yes, my first answer would be let's talk about your
salvation.
Understanding.
When you came to Christ, do youunderstand that he requires you
to be all in that?
It's all Jesus.
He's in charge.
To use a phrase a lot of peoplesee as a negative he's my boss
(24:02):
man.
He's the one To use a phrase alot of people see as a negative
he's my boss man.
He's the one I answer to.
He's the one who demands how Ilive my life.
Do you understand?
That's what salvation means.
And assuming that answer is yes, you then say no.
The obvious thing is we've gotto get our prayer life active.
We've got to get in the Word ofGod.
Those are basics.
(24:24):
I remember when I came toChrist as a 15-year-old and it
amazes me We've created thisenvironment in America where you
almost need to go take a classand get a certification to crank
your lawnmower, and I thinkthat has rolled over to the
church.
People feel like they got to becertified.
(24:46):
You know, I just knew as a15-year-old I should read my
Bible.
I don't understand why peopledon't get this.
You need to start talking toyour Savior and you need to
start reading your Bible,because that's his love letter
to you.
That's where he tells you whohe is, how he thinks, what his
(25:08):
desires are for you, and so thatwould be the genesis of that
conversation, and then we woulddirect that person toward what I
would believe at the time wouldbe the best covenant group for
us to get them into, to get themon a solid footing.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I appreciate your time.
Thank you, good to be here.
It's been informative,especially hearing about the
olden days, but we appreciateyour time.
Thanks again, guys, forwatching and listening.
We'll catch you next time onthe main thing podcast.
Amen are for us to recall in today's divisive and
dark culture, From foundationaltruths and scripture to the hot
topics of today's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back to the Main Thing Podcast with Pastor
Steve.
So thankful you guys joined ustoday for discipleship.
We're going to talk aboutdiscipleship today, so, pastor
Steve, thanks for being herewith us as always and I want to
talk about discipleship today.
So, pastor Steve, thanks forbeing here with us, as always,
and I want to talk aboutdiscipleship today.
But let's start with Matthew 28, 19 through 20.
This is a verse that we kind ofbuild what we try to do here on
(00:55):
.
So it says Go, therefore, andmake disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name ofthe Father and of the Son and of
the Holy Spirit, teaching themto observe all that I have
commanded you.
You know there's so much thatgoes into the definition of
discipleship.
Would you just start today bygiving us your definition of
discipleship?
What does it mean to be adisciple?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, discipleship in its simplest form is obedience.
I mean, we call that the GreatCommission because it is the
marching orders that Jesus givesus before he returns to heaven.
This is your job, it's what I'mleaving you here to do, and
(01:35):
that is to teach others what youhave.
And so, to further expound onthe simple definition, it is
duplication.
It's reproducing that which isalready inside of us in other
people.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
You know, when I first became a minister of
education, way back when thisverse stood out to me and you
had just basically said it in 2Timothy, where Paul tells
Timothy to me, and you had justbasically said it in 2 Timothy,
where Paul tells Timothy.
You know what you've heard fromme in the presence of many
witnesses entrust to faithfulmen who will be able to teach
others also, and to me that isthe epitome of duplication.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So what are some ways here at Covenant, what are some
ways we seek to build disciples?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Well, we do that primarily here through covenant
groups.
We have many, many groups thatmeet several times a year,
hopefully with the purpose ofhelping a person go deeper in
their faith walk, but also tolearn to get outside of
themselves and to serve tominister in a real and
(02:45):
meaningful way.
That's when a person begins tobecome a real disciple.
It's not just in what webelieve, it's in what we live
out also, and so we have severalof us on our team here that are
ministers that have smallgroups outside of the C groups,
(03:07):
covenant groups, where we try tomentor and bring people along,
and so it's a process.
You never totally achieve it,but you've got to always be
working toward it, and so that'sthe primary means in which we
try to accomplish that.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So you know, we've got so many different flavors of
small groups here or covenantgroups.
We've got Sunday morning, whatwe kind of think of as
traditional Sunday school.
We've got groups that meet inhalls.
We've got Wednesday night Biblestudies, and I think all of
those can be effective.
All of those can be weak.
But what does a reallyeffective covenant group look
like to you?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Well, in my mind, an effective covenant group is a
group that's going deep in theWord in some way and then, as a
group, coming out of that study,living it better, or maybe for
the first time in their lives,as they go about their day,
(04:10):
their work, their recreation,whatever, understanding that
they are a representative.
An ambassador means literallythat, and Paul tells us we're
ambassadors, an ambassador ofthe Lord Jesus Christ.
They're representing him asthey go to work, as they go to
play, as they live in theirhomes, and so that's when it
(04:34):
becomes successful discipleship,when it is actually lived out.
It's more than academia, it'smore than theoretical in our
mind, it becomes reality.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You know, when you look at discipleship and at
least what we're trying to dohere, it kind of falls into four
categories.
You know covenant groups,prayer, evangelism,
accountability.
Talk a little bit about prayer.
How do the covenant groups helpus to become better prayer
people?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Talk a little bit about prayer.
How do the covenant groups helpus to become better prayer
people?
Well, we've even had covenantgroups that have focused
primarily on prayer at differenttimes.
I think probably the anemia ofthe modern-day church is because
we have made prayer a token.
(05:27):
You know, we pray before westart the service or we pray at
some point in the service andunfortunately that's usually to
get us from point A to point Bin the service.
Prayer has to be so much morethan that.
It's got to be personal, yetit's got to be corporate.
Personal, yet it's got to becorporate.
(05:49):
It's got to be general, yetit's got to be specific.
And I think as we pray we lineup more Our prayer lives, help
us line up with God's will forour lives, and therefore we're
more willing as individuals toenter into a real experience of
discipleship rather than justtalking about it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You know, if we could go back in Southern Baptist
history or church history overthe years, I remember growing up
as a kid we had Wednesday nightprayer meeting and it was a
prayer meeting.
It was for the sole purpose ofcoming to pray.
Why do you think that's changedover the years?
Because we haven't doneanything like that here at
Covenant in a long time and Ithink it's just kind of fallen
(06:35):
out of use in churches.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Yeah, if you'll remember, there was a time not
too many years ago I lose trackwhere we tried to do prayer
focus on Wednesday nights and westarted the first Wednesday
night I remember vividly we had130 people.
I was so excited we had thatmany people interested in coming
to pray and then it began todwindle, week after week after
(07:00):
week until we had like 15.
I think we fall into the trapof trying to scratch people's
itches what will they come for?
You know, we tend sometimes ormost of the times, I think all
churches do to design theirprogramming and I use that word
(07:23):
loosely their ministry aroundwhat will get people in the door
.
And sometimes I think we'd bebetter served, especially in
prayer, not to worry about howmany come, but that some come,
that some pray.
I think you know, probably intruth, 20 people in serious
(07:46):
prayer every week would be a lotmore beneficial to the kingdom
than 100 people sitting in aBible study and nothing
happening from it.
And so, yeah, I think probablywe're as guilty as anybody of
not following through because wedidn't see the interest in the
(08:10):
activity.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And I think what I hear you saying is we've made it
an event, not a lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I think so, I think so yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That so reminds me of one of our covenant groups is
on spiritual disciplines, andone of the spiritual disciplines
it talks about is servanthood,and it makes a distinction.
It says you either are aservant or you do services, and
the goal is not to.
I'm going to serve when theopportunity comes up.
(08:39):
The goal is I'm a servant,always ready, and I think it's
the same thing with prayer,right, I'm guessing what
happened was well, we're goingto pray because we're having an
event at church, not that it'sbecome a lifestyle.
Yes, I agree, and I thinkprayer leads into.
The next one I want to talkabout is evangelism, and forgive
me for not remembering thereference at the moment, but
(09:00):
where Jesus said you know, thefields are wide unto harvest,
pray to the Lord of the harvestthat he'd send workers out into
the field.
How does praying about workerslead into evangelism?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Well, we've got to understand that evangelism and
discipleship are two separatesides of the same coin.
You have groups and churchestoday that'll either focus
solely on evangelism, absolutelyconvinced they're the only ones
doing it right in the world.
But the truth is, to do itright, you have to do both.
(09:38):
You can't disciple someonewho's not committed to Christ,
who's not been saved, who hasn'tcome to the Lord.
All you're doing is anintellectual exercise.
If you've got lost peopleyou're trying to disciple.
What a lot of churches are doingis they just try to steal
somebody that got saved over theevangelistic church and then
(09:58):
tell them that they're going toteach them how to follow Jesus,
and I think that's a sad stateon today's church.
But what we've got tounderstand is there's got to be
a healthy balance.
We need to be people who shareour faith but then engage.
Engage with them and help them,begin the processes of growing,
(10:25):
whether that's getting themthat initial book where they
learn what it is they've done,getting them in that first few
classes of covenant groups tounderstand what it means to be a
Christian, what it means thatGod has gifted me, what he
expects from me.
You know, and we can sit hereand say and I say this again not
(10:51):
to disparage anybody, and I saythis again not to disparage
anybody.
But there are churches that arenot growing because two people
got saved last year and theywant to focus on those two
people Almost until they cangive them an ACT-style academic
(11:14):
test to prove that they loveJesus.
Well, in the book of Acts, whenthe church exploded by the
thousands, it didn't stopgrowing because they were
discipling people, and I thinkthis keeps a lot of us from
growing evangelistically,because it feels overwhelming
(11:34):
sometimes, and so we've got totry to keep a balance on that, I
think, at all costs.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, you know, I think at this point in history
we haven't come up with anythingnew in the church that hadn't
been done before.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
No, there's nothing new.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And so when you say discipleship and evangelism are
two sides of the same coin, andso when you say discipleship and
evangelism are two sides of thesame coin, it makes me think
back to the 1950s and 60s, whenchurches used their Sunday
school as an evangelistic tool.
Yes, and you had.
It was a natural extension, andwe've gotten away from that, oh
yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Yeah, well, a lot of people are very critical.
In the 70s and 80s, even intothe 90s, there was taught that
you use Sunday school as anevangelistic tool.
And you went out in thecommunity and you signed people
up for Sunday school and whatthey knew was, if you signed up
10 people for Sunday school, oneor two would actually come and
(12:34):
they would see people come tothe Lord as that result.
And you had what I call thechurch anchors you know we shall
not be moved who wereabsolutely vehement that we were
putting all these people on thechurch rolls that were lost,
and that wasn't the case at all.
You were putting them on aSunday school roll, not the
(12:57):
church roll, and so there wasconflict within the church body.
Almost everywhere you looked,they were ruining the church.
But the bottom line isconventions, denominations,
exist to try to help us to do,or to get us to do, what it is.
(13:21):
We ought to already be doing so.
If you're a church thatactually is trying to do
evangelism, train your people insome avenues toward evangelism.
You're trying to dodiscipleship.
You don't really need anoutside entity to come in and
help you.
You're being obedient, andthat's the bottom line of
(13:44):
discipleship is obedience.
That's, in a nutshell, what itis.
Jesus said, observing allthings that I taught you.
Now here's one of the goodthings about what we did in
times past Forever.
On Sunday night you met for anhour before church in what we
(14:04):
call the old school trainingunion.
But in that old school trainingunion you taught people the
doctrines of the faith.
You taught people the doctrinesof the faith, and so you had an
(14:31):
average church member who iswe've all tried to get so cute
and do it in the latest,greatest, coolest way I'm afraid
the average church membersitting in church.
They can't explain much to youat all.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
You know it's funny.
You talked about the criticismearlier with the Sunday School
stuff.
I believe it was Dwight Moodywhen he told somebody well, I
like my way of doing evangelismmore than your way of not doing
evangelism.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I've always loved that quote.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, yeah, because there's always somebody that
knows what you're doing wrong.
Yep, yeah, they're everywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
So kind of falling into.
The next thing I want to talkabout is accountability.
Where does accountability fallin with discipleship?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I think it's a part of discipleship, it's a part of
the DNA of discipleship.
You know, we live in thisculture, in our society, where
it's my life.
Don't tell me what to do, it'snone of your business.
But when it comes to the familyof God, we are to be
accountable to one another andwe should, I think, very
(15:36):
lovingly encourage one another,almost in an aggravating way, to
continue to grow, continue tostretch, continue to serve the
Lord.
If you're not growing I believethis firmly anything that's not
growing is dying.
We know that even concrete willgrow stronger for 28 days after
(16:00):
it's poured, and after that itbegins to deteriorate, and so
anything not growing is dying.
So what we have fooled ourselvesinto as the Christian church is
we have all these peoplesitting in church on Sunday and
so many of them are not growing.
They've not grown in decades,yet somehow or another they're
(16:30):
lulled into this false assurancethat they're good with God.
And look, Jesus tells us tocount the cost.
He tells us that if we put ourhand to the plow and look back,
we're not fit for the kingdom ofGod.
We are told by the Gospels upfront.
This is an all-in commitment,it's not an optional lifestyle
and I'm afraid we've painted apicture to people.
(16:51):
If they'll just believe, theydon't have to do anything.
Yet James tells us our faithwithout works is totally dead,
it's useless.
I think that's pretty clear.
It's a no faith and while Iknow many would argue with me on
this, can you truly say aperson is saved who has
(17:15):
absolutely no faith?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
That reminds me.
I think all of us in here havegotten the question over the
years do I have to be baptizedto be a Christian?
And my answer has always beenokay.
Baptism is the first thing Godasked you to do after you're
saved.
If you tell God no to the veryfirst thing he asks you to do, I
think your answer is rightthere.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
You don't know God.
Well, at the very minimum, youdidn't count the cost.
You don't understand what yousigned up for.
You know, and I think look, I'mnot trying to be mean-spirited,
but because we obviouslybelieve in evangelism here we
practice it.
We believe in church growth.
I think this new paradigm inAmerica today, where you know
(18:05):
it's mama, me and us three andwe were real Christians, that's
why our church doesn't grow is alie of Satan.
But I believe the other side ofthat is if we're not careful,
we're so busy trying to fill theseats that we don't teach
people the truth of what itmeans to be a disciple of the
(18:27):
Lord Jesus Christ.
It is a total lifestyle change.
It is going all in in a newdirection.
That's what repentance is, andyou can't be saved without
repentance.
So again, can we say a personis a disciple?
Are they saved?
Are they a part of the familyof God?
(18:48):
If they came in, but they'renot all in?
You know it was a big thingthat went on in the 80s and 90s
and still in some circles thisthing called lordship salvation.
And so what we have is the samepastor that baptized 100 people
(19:10):
last year.
He baptized 75 of the same 100next year because they were
saved but they didn't acceptlordship salvation.
Well, I would contend they werenever saved.
Right, because lordship issalvation, that's right Lordship
is salvation, and so it becomesgreat in the denominational
(19:32):
papers.
And so it becomes great in thedenominational papers.
Your church is recognized forbeing one of the highest-ranking
baptisms in your denomination.
But the reality is all you didwas manipulate people.
I mean, you're either saved oryou're lost.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
There's no in-between there are no steps there to be
more and more saved.
It's like being a little bitpregnant that doesn't exist.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And so we played word games with people.
So I would say and I standfirmly behind this, if you're
not growing in your faith andthat's what it means to be a
disciple growing, becoming morelike Christ, and that results in
how you live out your dailylife, then you're lost, right?
(20:18):
I believe that firmly.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
You know I want to circle back to something you
said earlier, and look, all theministers here.
We can't answer to this becausewe'd have all been in grade
school when this happened, butyou were already pastoring, so
I'll let you answer this.
But back in the mid-'80s when,like Willow Creek, saddleback,
all those big churches, theystarted doing something that
(20:40):
kind of came to be termedseeker-sensitive and you had
talked about we fall into thetrap of just let's get them in
the pews, how do you think thatidea of seeker-sensitive
affected discipleship over theyears, when maybe churches
didn't quite understand whatWillow Creek or Saddleback meant
by seeker-sensitive?
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I sat under Bill Hybels.
I sat under Rick Warren.
I was in the room with them.
I heard their hearts.
I think if you really listen towhat they said, their idea of
Seeker Sensitive was make yourbuilding aesthetically pleasing,
(21:19):
clean up your environment, yourparking lots, paint the place,
have comfortable seating.
You know it was let's don'tcreate barriers that keep people
(21:39):
from wanting to come in.
And their hearts both of themwas to see people come to Christ
.
Now the argument against thatwould be is that what they did?
They tried to create a servicewhere lost people were
comfortable, and I would saythat you got to be careful with
that.
You can go too far where youcreate an environment where you
(22:03):
don't want to offend anybody,but we know the gospel is
offensive.
We have people walk outroutinely here.
I never try to offend them, butthe gospel is offensive.
They will get up and leave.
So I think their hearts wereright.
I don't want to disparage eitherone of those men.
Think their hearts were right.
(22:25):
I don't want to disparageeither one of those men, but I
think there were areas that theywent.
I heard them teach thisthemselves.
I heard Rick Warren say theydidn't sing the hymns because
you know you're singing the oldhymn, the Blood from Emmanuel's
Veins, and people start lookingaround the room.
You're thinking you're going tosacrifice a cat or something
(22:46):
you know.
Well, maybe in SouthernCalifornia they would think that
, but in the Southeast I don'tthink anybody would confuse it.
I don't think anybody wouldmisunderstand it.
So I think there's areas whereSecret S sensitive went too far,
there's no doubt.
I think there are areas whereit's still going too far, where
(23:12):
churches are just trying to bethe cool church, the in-church,
the flavor of the month, and Ithink that's very dangerous.
You're creating a comfortablefalse believism.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, if I could ask you onefinal question.
Somebody walks up to you on aSunday and they say Pastor Steve
, I really want to know what itmeans to be a disciple.
What do I do?
How would you answer thatquestion for somebody ready to
be a disciple?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yes, my first answer would be let's talk about your
salvation.
Understanding.
When you came to Christ, do youunderstand that he requires you
to be all in that?
It's all Jesus.
He's in charge.
To use a phrase a lot of peoplesee as a negative he's my boss
(24:02):
man.
He's the one To use a phrase alot of people see as a negative
he's my boss man.
He's the one I answer to.
He's the one who demands how Ilive my life.
Do you understand?
That's what salvation means.
And assuming that answer is yes, you then say no.
The obvious thing is we've gotto get our prayer life active.
We've got to get in the Word ofGod.
Those are basics.
(24:24):
I remember when I came toChrist as a 15-year-old and it
amazes me We've created thisenvironment in America where you
almost need to go take a classand get a certification to crank
your lawnmower, and I thinkthat has rolled over to the
church.
People feel like they got to becertified.
(24:46):
You know, I just knew as a15-year-old I should read my
Bible.
I don't understand why peopledon't get this.
You need to start talking toyour Savior and you need to
start reading your Bible,because that's his love letter
to you.
That's where he tells you whohe is, how he thinks, what his
(25:08):
desires are for you, and so thatwould be the genesis of that
conversation, and then we woulddirect that person toward what I
would believe at the time wouldbe the best covenant group for
us to get them into, to get themon a solid footing.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I appreciate your time.
Thank you, good to be here.
It's been informative,especially hearing about the
olden days, but we appreciateyour time.
Thanks again, guys, forwatching and listening.
We'll catch you next time onthe main thing podcast.
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