May 15, 2025 • 30 mins
We explore our church's mission statement—love God, love people, and lead others to do the same—breaking down what it means to truly love God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
• True worship means loving God with every aspect of our being
• What matters most in worship is not the style but the heart
• People are always our business—changing lives and eternal destinies
• Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also
• Your entire life should be offered as worship to God
Covenant Church
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thank you for reminder for us to recall in
today's divisive and darkculture, from foundational
truths and scripture to the hottopics of today's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Well, hey, pastor, steve, goodmorning, good to be with you
again, good to be here.
We are on episode 17 nowrolling through.
(00:42):
The next four episodes will beabout our mission statement and
discipleship and really just howwe walk people in our own
church through discipleship, andI'm excited about this one.
So the main idea, our missionstatement, is love God, love
people and lead others to do thesame.
It's simple, but, as you say,what God calls us to do is
(01:05):
simple, and so that's the heartbehind it.
The first passage I wanted tolook at is Matthew 22, 37
through 38.
That says you shall love theLord, your God, with all your
heart and with all your soul andwith all your mind.
This is the great and firstcommandment and just doing a
quick word study there, heartmeans the source of life, the
(01:26):
soul means breath of life andthe mind means understanding.
So I like to rephrase that.
And says you shall love theLord, your God, with all your
life and with all your breathand with all your understanding,
Just paints a clear pictureabout that.
And so John 4, 23, 24, says butthe hour is coming, and now is
(01:46):
here, when the true worshiperswill worship the Father in the
Spirit and truth, for the Fatheris seeking such people to
worship Him, and worship meanscomplete dependence on God
Spirit.
You know Jesus is establishinghere, at the woman at the well,
that God is spirit and hedoesn't have to be worshiped on
the mountain Now.
He has access available, allpeople in every place, through
(02:11):
Jesus Christ.
And, of course, one of myfavorite scriptures, hebrews 10,
25, not neglecting to meettogether, as is the habit of
some, but encouraging oneanother, and all the more as you
see the day drawing near.
So whenever the writer says theday drawing near, what does
that mean, pastor Steve?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
As we would typically call it, the return of Christ,
the second coming.
That is the goal, the moment inhistory we look forward to it's
when Christ calls his childrenhome.
So yeah, we look forward withthat with great anticipation.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yes, yes, I remember during the COVID years, you know
this scripture was theheartbeat of every church.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah, yeah, come back , come back, come back, come
back.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yes, and you know the scripture says, you know why
are we commanded to meettogether?
And Paul writes to encourageone another.
And I think it's important toremember this was written during
a time of persecution,something we don't quite
understand.
And I was just meeting with afriend who does some underground
church work with the Chinesegovernment.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And he told me a story about a pastor just
recently.
Yeah, and he told me a storyabout a pastor just recently.
There were some sleepers in hiscell group and they were
discussing where to meet eachweek because they have to change
locations and they were tellingthe CCP where they were meeting
and so people were getting introuble and all that.
And so the pastor stood up oneSunday and this is a true hero
of the faith in my mind.
(03:41):
He stood up and said you knowwhat?
We're going to get rid of theseguys.
He said let's all pray aboutwhere to meet the following week
and not tell anybody and justshow up where the Holy Spirit
leads us.
Do you know?
Every single one of thosechurch members showed up at the
same place that next week.
That's awesome, and I thinkabout that and think us in
America.
We can't even fathom dependingon the Spirit like that.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No, no, no, no.
We're too blessed, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Right.
And so to dig into these alittle bit, pastor Steve, what
does it mean to truly love Godwith all of your heart?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
soul and mind.
Well, I think, to really getthat, you got to understand the
background of that passage.
That you got to understand thebackground of that passage, the
Jews, in their well-intentionedthinking, followed the letter of
the law, the biblical mandates,the Ten Commandments.
And so in that passage inMatthew, it's a lawyer
(04:45):
specializing in the scripturaltext that's asking the question
and what the Jews had done.
If you count the TenCommandments, the letter, each
letter, there are 613 letters,and so they then devised 613
(05:05):
additional laws divided intopositive and negative statements
for the people to follow Now intheir defense.
Moses is the guy who went up onthe mountain and God handed him
the Ten Commandments.
Moses is the guy that saw Godface to face.
(05:29):
Moses is the guy that God usedto lead the people out of Egypt
and deliver them, so rightfullyso.
They held Moses and the lawgiven by Moses in the highest
place of authority.
That's right.
So they could not conceiveanyone challenging the position
(05:53):
of Moses and the authority ofScripture.
And so Jesus was not doing that.
As we know, the Bible tells ushe came to fulfill the law,
right, not to eliminate it orchange it.
But what's happening in thisparticular place?
His interpretation of the lawis different than theirs.
(06:18):
He's taken all of those lawsand he's rolling them up in one
neat little concise statementand he's saying hey, you either
love the Lord or all of this isa waste.
You know, so his interpretationwas so different than theirs
(06:40):
they couldn't comprehend it.
I try to teach this to our teamall the time.
You got to love people and oneof the ways we talk about that
around here it is in humanpersonality to want to make
rules.
Yeah, and so we love to makerules, oh no.
(07:01):
A church member wants to dosomething on a Saturday
afternoon in the sanctuary?
Oh no.
You church member wants to dosomething on a Saturday
afternoon in the sanctuary?
Oh no, you can't do that.
Our rule says, you know?
Or somebody wants to use thechurch?
Well no.
The rule says the rule that Itry to follow in my life is
what's loving?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
What's loving.
So worship in its simplest formis our love expressed toward
our Savior right.
So I think what Jesus is doing?
He's boiling the whole thingdown, just like Paul did in 1
Corinthians 13.
And he's saying look, it's allabout you having a pure love for
(07:41):
Jesus and the people Jesuscreated.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
You know Paul, 1 Corinthians 12, he gives us all
those gifts and we got a lot ofpeople who love to celebrate
gifts today.
But then we forget the nextchapter, chapter 13, which we
call the wedding chapter, thelove chapter, and we totally
miss what it is.
(08:08):
It's Paul's explanation thatthose gifts are worthless if you
can't love people.
So what Jesus is doing isdriving home the truth that I
think the greatest example ofChrist in one's life, the
(08:28):
expression of one's worship toChrist, the expression of who
you are to other people, isfound in your ability to love.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And I think about that ability to love.
The only reason we had that isbecause God first loved us
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
He gave us Exactly, yeah, exactly.
He gave us the example of howto love people.
And the truth is, even in theChristian church, very few
understand this truth.
Very few understand this truth.
You know, we have all theseworldly processes and thoughts
(09:07):
that we apply to our Christianlife, but the bottom line is you
got to love God, love him how?
With your heart, soul and mind,every fiber of your being, and
love your neighbor as yourself.
Now we probably live in themost self-centered time in my
(09:29):
lifetime in America.
If we love Jesus like we loveourselves right now, man, we'd
be doing good yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
That's right.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's also difficultbecause of the position we're in
.
We're constantly in front ofpeople, helping people, loving
people, and if someone's notdoing that on a regular basis, I
think it's hard for them torealize the importance of it,
Because we see the hurt, we seethe healing, we see what walking
(10:03):
with someone through thosesituations takes.
Yes, For others it may be wellwe can't do this because it's a
rule, but we see it as this is arelationship and we want them
to know Jesus.
That's the ultimate goal.
Yes, You've always said peopleare our business.
That's right.
People is what we're in thisfor.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, why don't we do what we do to see people come
to the Lord Jesus, to see theircurrent destiny and their
eternal destiny change courseRight, you know I mean and to
hopefully help them come to aplace where they can help others
do the same thing.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's right.
That's right.
So, in our relationship withGod, you know, you just said
that worship is with everyloving God, with every fiber of
our being loving him andworshiping him.
What are some practical waysthat we, as a church, provide
opportunities for people toworship here?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Opportunities to worship here.
Opportunities to worship Well.
It begins with what we call theworship service on Sunday, when
Nathaniel and I talk routinely.
Our goal is not to provideentertainment, but to try to
create a service that istailored to help people enter
(11:26):
into a deeper worship with theLord Jesus.
You can't create that.
You can't make that happen, butto facilitate as best as we can
the environment so that it canbe a worshipful moment for
individuals.
You know I try to teach thatour worship is far greater than
(11:49):
what we do in an hour on Sundaymorning.
How you do your work is worship.
How you do your recreation isworship how you do your family
relationships is worship.
It is so much bigger than anhour on the weekend, and so we
(12:11):
try to teach our peopleroutinely that your entire life
is meant to be offered asworship to your Savior.
It's not a compartmentalizedjourney, you know.
It's an all-inclusive journey.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, amen, amen, amen.
So we have what we callcovenant class, and, goodness, I
can remember when I startedback in 2013, I think we were
calling it maybe the 101, 102class at that point, basics yeah
.
And I know before that, evenbefore Brent came, you were
(12:46):
doing something.
I'm sure you did something likethat at the other churches that
you pastored.
So why is that important whensomeone visits our church?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Well, number one a lot of churches today,
especially the ones thatpractice what some would think
is questionable worshippractices, they try to keep who
they really are kind of secretuntil they get you in.
We don't want to trick anybody.
(13:18):
So let's say, a Christian'scoming from another church.
They're already saved, theyknow Jesus.
Maybe they've been a Christian20 years, it doesn't matter.
We want them to understand ourcore beliefs because we don't
want them to come into this bodyand then go six months later.
(13:39):
Oh wait, y'all believe that Iwould have never joined here if
I believed that.
So one purpose is for those whoalready know the Lord and that
they know what we believe.
The other one is for a personwho is maybe new to their faith
or considering coming to Christ.
(13:59):
Is that we're teaching themthose same basics, but maybe
they're hearing them for thefirst time.
You know, what do we believeabout salvation?
There's soteriology.
How does a person come toChrist?
What does that mean?
What is baptism?
What is the importance of it?
How do we practice it?
(14:21):
Why do we practice it the waythey do?
What do we believe aboutScripture?
And so we want to begin to putthat foundation under them.
That'll help them succeed.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Amen.
I know it helped me personally,coming from the Catholic Church
.
Yeah, because I had a lot ofquestions about church practices
.
Yes, the practicality of church.
How do you do church?
What does it look like?
Why do we not take the Lord'sSupper every week?
Simple things like that that,through the years, I see as very
simple and foundational, butfor some people it's big stuff
(14:56):
that they're seeing for thefirst time.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Big stuff.
I'll tell you a true story,because if you go, do what we do
every week and you're in theWord of God and you're in deep
study and I've been studying now50 years the Word of God and
you make the mistake of assuminga lot of things.
(15:20):
I had an individual who hasbeen a Christian for many years
come up to me recently and say Ijust need to be clear Now,
jesus was God's only son,correct?
Now where I am in my walk, thatalmost knocked me off my feet
Like are you kidding me?
(15:41):
You didn't know this, but itreminded me of the importance of
not trying to impress yourselfwhen you're preaching with your
knowledge.
Communication only happens whenyou encode a message and send it
out and it's decoded the sameway you send it out.
(16:02):
That's the only timecommunication happens.
So we have to be mindful, aspreaching and teaching the Word,
that we've got people that areat every spectrum of the journey
and we don't need to believeour own press.
(16:22):
We need to remember to keep itsimple, teach the basics and
never assume that they just know.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, Amen, yeah Amen .
And especially here, because Ifeel like Steve, God has
especially placed our churchwhere it's at and what you've
done through all the years.
We uniquely reach adults whoare coming out of the Catholic
faith.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
A lot of our baptisms .
I haven't looked at the numbers, I'm just judging by what I see
on Sunday morning the baptismswe have.
There's a ton of children, butthere's also a lot of adults,
yes, and when you go to thecountry churches in the Bible
Belt it's predominantly childrenat your normal average church.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
The average church in America, the largest percentage
of their baptisms every year ischildren.
We have been accused by theCatholics of practicing infant
baptism, because we baptize somany children.
They're like what's thedifference in a baby and a
four-year-old right?
And there's some validity tothat criticism.
(17:30):
And so this is what I've beentold the whole time I've been
here.
It's not an arrogant statement.
I say it in all humilitybecause I'm just a country
preacher.
I'm educated beyond my meansand I just want to preach Jesus
and help people get to Jesus.
(17:53):
I just want to preach Jesus andhelp people get to Jesus.
But God gave me a gift oftaking the complex text and
putting it in a way people cangrasp it.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yes, you have.
I would compare with that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
On the farm.
We would call it putting thefodder, the food, down where the
calf can get it.
Right, right, okay, it doesn'tdo you any good to have the food
where only the mama cow can getit.
The calf needs food too, and soI had a couple tell me just two
weeks ago in their 70s.
We came here seven years agofor a funeral and we thought
(18:29):
this is the first preacher we'veever understood.
Wow, and they're coming now tojoin after seven years.
Yeah, they're coming to becomea part of our church family, our
home, and so if there'sanything God uses me for for any
good at all, I thank him forthe ability to make things
(18:53):
simple.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right, it just brought up a memory.
I remember when you walkedthrough Hebrews years ago and
you got to chapters six andseven, which are highly tense
chapters, but I remember as ayoung believer and a young
preacher at that time.
I still have the journalwriting it down because you were
able to help me make sense of alot of those tense issues.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And you do it in such a way where there's a
congregation filled withchildren, young adults, old
adults, all walks of life.
But there's no doubt that theLord has given you that gift.
I can concur with that for sure.
So one of the things that oneof the questions I'd like to
touch on is there's obviouslysome barriers that people bring
(19:36):
in the worship service, theybring in their work, they bring
in their hobbies and I've heardthis from many people they feel
like they don't experience Godand they feel like they are not
obeying Him and serving Him.
What could some of thesebarriers be in people's lives
that's hindering them fromexperiencing the Lord, loving
(19:58):
the Lord and serving Him the waythat he's calling them to serve
?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, basic human nature, our sin nature.
I don't care if it's theirrecreation, their work, their
home life, whatever it is.
The bottom line to me is this Idon't care what I do, I don't
care what the worship pastordoes, I don't care how hard we
work at setting up theenvironment.
If you don't come in to aworship service with the intent
(20:29):
that you're coming to worshipholy God, your creator, the one
who saved your soul, the one whochanged your direction from
hell to heaven, the one who, inmany cases, forked your family
tree right, changed the destinyof your family story, there's
(20:52):
nothing we can do for you.
It boils down to a willingnessto submit oneself to Jesus in
that moment of worship, whetherthat's in corporate worship at
church or in personal worship.
As a general rule, in our sinnature, we don't want anybody
(21:15):
else controlling our life.
We want to control our livesand that's our biggest barrier
right there to come and honestlyjust lay yourself before the
Lord as an open book and sayhere I am, do with me as you
will.
That's a concept the averageChristian cannot begin to
(21:41):
comprehend that.
I would do that, and it'smanifested in things like I want
God to use me, but I can't givehim more than an hour a week.
I want God to use me, but if hecalls me to do something, I'm
not moving away from here.
I want God to use me, but if itcosts me anything, I'm not
(22:04):
interested in that.
So, we set up all these barriersand then we wonder why we don't
experience God in a deeper,closer fellowship.
I think that's what many aresaying when they say I don't
feel it.
I don't feel it.
Now, feelings is a legitimatepart of worship.
(22:26):
I don't feel it.
Now, feelings is a legitimatepart of worship.
Okay, right.
But it's got to be more thanthat and for you to have the
feelings you've got to get pastthat sin nature and that
selfishness and open your lifetotally to the Savior, and then
(22:48):
you'll have feelings, butthere'll be some concrete
foundation that'll come withthem.
I heard Johnny Hunt say one timeyou can raise your hands and
worship all day long, but atsome point, if you really want
to worship, you got to reach inthat back pocket and pull that
wallet out and give.
Well, that sounds manipulativeon its face, but what did Jesus
(23:10):
teach us in Matthew 18?
You got a problem with yourbrother.
Go to the altar, leave youroffering and then go get it
right.
Why does he say that If you lookat Scripture Old and New
Testament you don't dare comebefore the Lord without an
offering, right?
So we know that 70% 80% of thepeople in any church in America
(23:35):
never give a dime to the Lord,and so they've automatically
drawn a line in the sand andsaid here's a place I won't
cross.
Well, then they sit back andwonder why they don't experience
God better.
Right, see, it's not about themoney, because what the money
says is I trust you, right, Iknow you're going to take care
(24:00):
of me if I honor you with whatyou've blessed me with.
And the average Christian justcannot get a hold of that
concept.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
One of the things me and my family have found through
the years is that the Lord hasalways taken care of us, and
I've heard people say it.
I was just speaking to a newChristian not that long ago and
he was like, yeah, I still justdon't like it when the pastor
speaks about money and I lovethis because it's an opportunity
for me to share and I alwayssay well, if the pastor you're
(24:31):
listening to is not teaching youabout money, he's not properly
preaching the word to you.
That's right, because that'spart of growing, that's part of
discipleship.
If you're not giving, thenwhere's your heart?
Because where your money is,that's where your heart is.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's what Jesus said right?
Yeah, that's right.
That's what Jesus said right?
Yeah, that's right.
And since he designed us, heprobably knows that's right.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Exactly yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
It's amazing, steve, to think about that only 20,
probably less than that percentof people in every church is
giving.
I mean, can you imagine weprobably would have reached all
four corners of the earth by now?
Absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Our church is a little different.
We got about 35, 40% that aregivers.
It's amazing, but they're nottithers, they're small givers.
So our per capita these peoplethat study all this stuff our
average gift is $38 perindividual and the average when
(25:29):
you get up into the Bible beltis $78 per individual.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So you know a family of Per month or per week.
Per week, Per week, 38 a weekPer worship service yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
So you got you know a family of four here giving $40.
A family of four in JacksonMississippi, birmingham Alabama,
giving $150, $200.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
And so we're blessed here.
We were able to do ministry andpay the bills.
But if we could just get ourpeople to become obedient and to
give even at the nationalaverage not even exceed that we
could do so much for the kingdomof God.
Because it takes money to doministry.
(26:17):
That's just the reality.
But that's not the end, all tobe all.
The main thing is you're notgoing to experience deep worship
if you're holding on to thedollar with a clenched fist.
God will not bless that kind oflife.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's right.
I think it was in one of yoursermons recently with the last
few weeks.
You brought up where Jesus saidyou can't love both.
You either love God or lovemoney.
That's right, and so there'szero tension.
It's either one or the other.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, you know, yeah, and look, it's been said that
you don't have to be rich to begenerous, you just have to be
generous to be generous, right?
I know families that are whatwe would classify in America as
the working poor, and they'revery greedy.
They don't make a lot of money,but what they make, they're
very greedy about it.
(27:14):
I know rich families the sameway, and likewise I know rich
families and poor families thatare very generous, and so it's a
hard issue.
It's not a money issue, it's ahard issue, right.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It's not a money issue, it's a heart issue.
Yeah, yeah, amen.
So last question is how can weencourage others to make worship
a priority in their life?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Well, they've got to understand they were created to
worship holy God.
Your number one purpose as abeliever on planet earth is to
worship Holy God.
All this other stuff we do inchurch is a byproduct, and so I
think when you understand whatfirst place in your life, first
(27:59):
position, ought to be, it allbegins to line up and make sense
.
So if they can understand, ifthey can grasp that God created
you with a purpose, that purposeis to give Him honor and glory.
You are His greatest creationand so you're to point back to
(28:23):
Him in every way and give himhonor and glory.
That's your purpose.
So if you can understand that,worship will become so much more
meaningful for you.
That's that whole discussion.
Church has been fighting overmusic for 20 years now, and it's
so sad, because what makesChristian music is not the
(28:47):
musical arrangement, it's thewords of the song, is what makes
it Christian music, and so weget people with all these
preferences.
Well, I don't care if you'resinging hymns or choruses or
chanting like an old school monk, it doesn't matter.
(29:08):
What are you saying, right?
What are you saying, and areyou saying it with your heart
and an open life when you do it?
That's what matters, and so weare so superficial in the modern
day church.
We go to church because we likewhat they do, right, and I
(29:30):
think that's what's created ageneration of believers that are
about a half inch deep and fourmiles wide, right, you know.
So, yeah, you got to understandyour purpose, your purpose.
You are here, first andforemost, to worship your
creator.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Amen, amen.
Well, I appreciate you beinghere.
Pastor Steve, happy to be here.
Thank you, we'll see you guyson the next one.
Thank you for reminder for us to recall in
today's divisive and darkculture, from foundational
truths and scripture to the hottopics of today's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Well, hey, pastor, steve, goodmorning, good to be with you
again, good to be here.
We are on episode 17 nowrolling through.
(00:42):
The next four episodes will beabout our mission statement and
discipleship and really just howwe walk people in our own
church through discipleship, andI'm excited about this one.
So the main idea, our missionstatement, is love God, love
people and lead others to do thesame.
It's simple, but, as you say,what God calls us to do is
(01:05):
simple, and so that's the heartbehind it.
The first passage I wanted tolook at is Matthew 22, 37
through 38.
That says you shall love theLord, your God, with all your
heart and with all your soul andwith all your mind.
This is the great and firstcommandment and just doing a
quick word study there, heartmeans the source of life, the
(01:26):
soul means breath of life andthe mind means understanding.
So I like to rephrase that.
And says you shall love theLord, your God, with all your
life and with all your breathand with all your understanding,
Just paints a clear pictureabout that.
And so John 4, 23, 24, says butthe hour is coming, and now is
(01:46):
here, when the true worshiperswill worship the Father in the
Spirit and truth, for the Fatheris seeking such people to
worship Him, and worship meanscomplete dependence on God
Spirit.
You know Jesus is establishinghere, at the woman at the well,
that God is spirit and hedoesn't have to be worshiped on
the mountain Now.
He has access available, allpeople in every place, through
(02:11):
Jesus Christ.
And, of course, one of myfavorite scriptures, hebrews 10,
25, not neglecting to meettogether, as is the habit of
some, but encouraging oneanother, and all the more as you
see the day drawing near.
So whenever the writer says theday drawing near, what does
that mean, pastor Steve?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
As we would typically call it, the return of Christ,
the second coming.
That is the goal, the moment inhistory we look forward to it's
when Christ calls his childrenhome.
So yeah, we look forward withthat with great anticipation.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yes, yes, I remember during the COVID years, you know
this scripture was theheartbeat of every church.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah, yeah, come back , come back, come back, come
back.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yes, and you know the scripture says, you know why
are we commanded to meettogether?
And Paul writes to encourageone another.
And I think it's important toremember this was written during
a time of persecution,something we don't quite
understand.
And I was just meeting with afriend who does some underground
church work with the Chinesegovernment.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And he told me a story about a pastor just
recently.
Yeah, and he told me a storyabout a pastor just recently.
There were some sleepers in hiscell group and they were
discussing where to meet eachweek because they have to change
locations and they were tellingthe CCP where they were meeting
and so people were getting introuble and all that.
And so the pastor stood up oneSunday and this is a true hero
of the faith in my mind.
(03:41):
He stood up and said you knowwhat?
We're going to get rid of theseguys.
He said let's all pray aboutwhere to meet the following week
and not tell anybody and justshow up where the Holy Spirit
leads us.
Do you know?
Every single one of thosechurch members showed up at the
same place that next week.
That's awesome, and I thinkabout that and think us in
America.
We can't even fathom dependingon the Spirit like that.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No, no, no, no.
We're too blessed, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Right.
And so to dig into these alittle bit, pastor Steve, what
does it mean to truly love Godwith all of your heart?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
soul and mind.
Well, I think, to really getthat, you got to understand the
background of that passage.
That you got to understand thebackground of that passage, the
Jews, in their well-intentionedthinking, followed the letter of
the law, the biblical mandates,the Ten Commandments.
And so in that passage inMatthew, it's a lawyer
(04:45):
specializing in the scripturaltext that's asking the question
and what the Jews had done.
If you count the TenCommandments, the letter, each
letter, there are 613 letters,and so they then devised 613
(05:05):
additional laws divided intopositive and negative statements
for the people to follow Now intheir defense.
Moses is the guy who went up onthe mountain and God handed him
the Ten Commandments.
Moses is the guy that saw Godface to face.
(05:29):
Moses is the guy that God usedto lead the people out of Egypt
and deliver them, so rightfullyso.
They held Moses and the lawgiven by Moses in the highest
place of authority.
That's right.
So they could not conceiveanyone challenging the position
(05:53):
of Moses and the authority ofScripture.
And so Jesus was not doing that.
As we know, the Bible tells ushe came to fulfill the law,
right, not to eliminate it orchange it.
But what's happening in thisparticular place?
His interpretation of the lawis different than theirs.
(06:18):
He's taken all of those lawsand he's rolling them up in one
neat little concise statementand he's saying hey, you either
love the Lord or all of this isa waste.
You know, so his interpretationwas so different than theirs
(06:40):
they couldn't comprehend it.
I try to teach this to our teamall the time.
You got to love people and oneof the ways we talk about that
around here it is in humanpersonality to want to make
rules.
Yeah, and so we love to makerules, oh no.
(07:01):
A church member wants to dosomething on a Saturday
afternoon in the sanctuary?
Oh no.
You church member wants to dosomething on a Saturday
afternoon in the sanctuary?
Oh no, you can't do that.
Our rule says, you know?
Or somebody wants to use thechurch?
Well no.
The rule says the rule that Itry to follow in my life is
what's loving?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
What's loving.
So worship in its simplest formis our love expressed toward
our Savior right.
So I think what Jesus is doing?
He's boiling the whole thingdown, just like Paul did in 1
Corinthians 13.
And he's saying look, it's allabout you having a pure love for
(07:41):
Jesus and the people Jesuscreated.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
You know Paul, 1 Corinthians 12, he gives us all
those gifts and we got a lot ofpeople who love to celebrate
gifts today.
But then we forget the nextchapter, chapter 13, which we
call the wedding chapter, thelove chapter, and we totally
miss what it is.
(08:08):
It's Paul's explanation thatthose gifts are worthless if you
can't love people.
So what Jesus is doing isdriving home the truth that I
think the greatest example ofChrist in one's life, the
(08:28):
expression of one's worship toChrist, the expression of who
you are to other people, isfound in your ability to love.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And I think about that ability to love.
The only reason we had that isbecause God first loved us
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
He gave us Exactly, yeah, exactly.
He gave us the example of howto love people.
And the truth is, even in theChristian church, very few
understand this truth.
Very few understand this truth.
You know, we have all theseworldly processes and thoughts
(09:07):
that we apply to our Christianlife, but the bottom line is you
got to love God, love him how?
With your heart, soul and mind,every fiber of your being, and
love your neighbor as yourself.
Now we probably live in themost self-centered time in my
(09:29):
lifetime in America.
If we love Jesus like we loveourselves right now, man, we'd
be doing good yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
That's right.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's also difficultbecause of the position we're in
.
We're constantly in front ofpeople, helping people, loving
people, and if someone's notdoing that on a regular basis, I
think it's hard for them torealize the importance of it,
Because we see the hurt, we seethe healing, we see what walking
(10:03):
with someone through thosesituations takes.
Yes, For others it may be wellwe can't do this because it's a
rule, but we see it as this is arelationship and we want them
to know Jesus.
That's the ultimate goal.
Yes, You've always said peopleare our business.
That's right.
People is what we're in thisfor.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, why don't we do what we do to see people come
to the Lord Jesus, to see theircurrent destiny and their
eternal destiny change courseRight, you know I mean and to
hopefully help them come to aplace where they can help others
do the same thing.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's right.
That's right.
So, in our relationship withGod, you know, you just said
that worship is with everyloving God, with every fiber of
our being loving him andworshiping him.
What are some practical waysthat we, as a church, provide
opportunities for people toworship here?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Opportunities to worship here.
Opportunities to worship Well.
It begins with what we call theworship service on Sunday, when
Nathaniel and I talk routinely.
Our goal is not to provideentertainment, but to try to
create a service that istailored to help people enter
(11:26):
into a deeper worship with theLord Jesus.
You can't create that.
You can't make that happen, butto facilitate as best as we can
the environment so that it canbe a worshipful moment for
individuals.
You know I try to teach thatour worship is far greater than
(11:49):
what we do in an hour on Sundaymorning.
How you do your work is worship.
How you do your recreation isworship how you do your family
relationships is worship.
It is so much bigger than anhour on the weekend, and so we
(12:11):
try to teach our peopleroutinely that your entire life
is meant to be offered asworship to your Savior.
It's not a compartmentalizedjourney, you know.
It's an all-inclusive journey.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, amen, amen, amen.
So we have what we callcovenant class, and, goodness, I
can remember when I startedback in 2013, I think we were
calling it maybe the 101, 102class at that point, basics yeah
.
And I know before that, evenbefore Brent came, you were
(12:46):
doing something.
I'm sure you did something likethat at the other churches that
you pastored.
So why is that important whensomeone visits our church?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Well, number one a lot of churches today,
especially the ones thatpractice what some would think
is questionable worshippractices, they try to keep who
they really are kind of secretuntil they get you in.
We don't want to trick anybody.
(13:18):
So let's say, a Christian'scoming from another church.
They're already saved, theyknow Jesus.
Maybe they've been a Christian20 years, it doesn't matter.
We want them to understand ourcore beliefs because we don't
want them to come into this bodyand then go six months later.
(13:39):
Oh wait, y'all believe that Iwould have never joined here if
I believed that.
So one purpose is for those whoalready know the Lord and that
they know what we believe.
The other one is for a personwho is maybe new to their faith
or considering coming to Christ.
(13:59):
Is that we're teaching themthose same basics, but maybe
they're hearing them for thefirst time.
You know, what do we believeabout salvation?
There's soteriology.
How does a person come toChrist?
What does that mean?
What is baptism?
What is the importance of it?
How do we practice it?
(14:21):
Why do we practice it the waythey do?
What do we believe aboutScripture?
And so we want to begin to putthat foundation under them.
That'll help them succeed.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Amen.
I know it helped me personally,coming from the Catholic Church
.
Yeah, because I had a lot ofquestions about church practices
.
Yes, the practicality of church.
How do you do church?
What does it look like?
Why do we not take the Lord'sSupper every week?
Simple things like that that,through the years, I see as very
simple and foundational, butfor some people it's big stuff
(14:56):
that they're seeing for thefirst time.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Big stuff.
I'll tell you a true story,because if you go, do what we do
every week and you're in theWord of God and you're in deep
study and I've been studying now50 years the Word of God and
you make the mistake of assuminga lot of things.
(15:20):
I had an individual who hasbeen a Christian for many years
come up to me recently and say Ijust need to be clear Now,
jesus was God's only son,correct?
Now where I am in my walk, thatalmost knocked me off my feet
Like are you kidding me?
(15:41):
You didn't know this, but itreminded me of the importance of
not trying to impress yourselfwhen you're preaching with your
knowledge.
Communication only happens whenyou encode a message and send it
out and it's decoded the sameway you send it out.
(16:02):
That's the only timecommunication happens.
So we have to be mindful, aspreaching and teaching the Word,
that we've got people that areat every spectrum of the journey
and we don't need to believeour own press.
(16:22):
We need to remember to keep itsimple, teach the basics and
never assume that they just know.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, Amen, yeah Amen .
And especially here, because Ifeel like Steve, God has
especially placed our churchwhere it's at and what you've
done through all the years.
We uniquely reach adults whoare coming out of the Catholic
faith.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
A lot of our baptisms .
I haven't looked at the numbers, I'm just judging by what I see
on Sunday morning the baptismswe have.
There's a ton of children, butthere's also a lot of adults,
yes, and when you go to thecountry churches in the Bible
Belt it's predominantly childrenat your normal average church.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
The average church in America, the largest percentage
of their baptisms every year ischildren.
We have been accused by theCatholics of practicing infant
baptism, because we baptize somany children.
They're like what's thedifference in a baby and a
four-year-old right?
And there's some validity tothat criticism.
(17:30):
And so this is what I've beentold the whole time I've been
here.
It's not an arrogant statement.
I say it in all humilitybecause I'm just a country
preacher.
I'm educated beyond my meansand I just want to preach Jesus
and help people get to Jesus.
(17:53):
I just want to preach Jesus andhelp people get to Jesus.
But God gave me a gift oftaking the complex text and
putting it in a way people cangrasp it.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yes, you have.
I would compare with that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
On the farm.
We would call it putting thefodder, the food, down where the
calf can get it.
Right, right, okay, it doesn'tdo you any good to have the food
where only the mama cow can getit.
The calf needs food too, and soI had a couple tell me just two
weeks ago in their 70s.
We came here seven years agofor a funeral and we thought
(18:29):
this is the first preacher we'veever understood.
Wow, and they're coming now tojoin after seven years.
Yeah, they're coming to becomea part of our church family, our
home, and so if there'sanything God uses me for for any
good at all, I thank him forthe ability to make things
(18:53):
simple.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right, it just brought up a memory.
I remember when you walkedthrough Hebrews years ago and
you got to chapters six andseven, which are highly tense
chapters, but I remember as ayoung believer and a young
preacher at that time.
I still have the journalwriting it down because you were
able to help me make sense of alot of those tense issues.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And you do it in such a way where there's a
congregation filled withchildren, young adults, old
adults, all walks of life.
But there's no doubt that theLord has given you that gift.
I can concur with that for sure.
So one of the things that oneof the questions I'd like to
touch on is there's obviouslysome barriers that people bring
(19:36):
in the worship service, theybring in their work, they bring
in their hobbies and I've heardthis from many people they feel
like they don't experience Godand they feel like they are not
obeying Him and serving Him.
What could some of thesebarriers be in people's lives
that's hindering them fromexperiencing the Lord, loving
(19:58):
the Lord and serving Him the waythat he's calling them to serve
?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, basic human nature, our sin nature.
I don't care if it's theirrecreation, their work, their
home life, whatever it is.
The bottom line to me is this Idon't care what I do, I don't
care what the worship pastordoes, I don't care how hard we
work at setting up theenvironment.
If you don't come in to aworship service with the intent
(20:29):
that you're coming to worshipholy God, your creator, the one
who saved your soul, the one whochanged your direction from
hell to heaven, the one who, inmany cases, forked your family
tree right, changed the destinyof your family story, there's
(20:52):
nothing we can do for you.
It boils down to a willingnessto submit oneself to Jesus in
that moment of worship, whetherthat's in corporate worship at
church or in personal worship.
As a general rule, in our sinnature, we don't want anybody
(21:15):
else controlling our life.
We want to control our livesand that's our biggest barrier
right there to come and honestlyjust lay yourself before the
Lord as an open book and sayhere I am, do with me as you
will.
That's a concept the averageChristian cannot begin to
(21:41):
comprehend that.
I would do that, and it'smanifested in things like I want
God to use me, but I can't givehim more than an hour a week.
I want God to use me, but if hecalls me to do something, I'm
not moving away from here.
I want God to use me, but if itcosts me anything, I'm not
(22:04):
interested in that.
So, we set up all these barriersand then we wonder why we don't
experience God in a deeper,closer fellowship.
I think that's what many aresaying when they say I don't
feel it.
I don't feel it.
Now, feelings is a legitimatepart of worship.
(22:26):
I don't feel it.
Now, feelings is a legitimatepart of worship.
Okay, right.
But it's got to be more thanthat and for you to have the
feelings you've got to get pastthat sin nature and that
selfishness and open your lifetotally to the Savior, and then
(22:48):
you'll have feelings, butthere'll be some concrete
foundation that'll come withthem.
I heard Johnny Hunt say one timeyou can raise your hands and
worship all day long, but atsome point, if you really want
to worship, you got to reach inthat back pocket and pull that
wallet out and give.
Well, that sounds manipulativeon its face, but what did Jesus
(23:10):
teach us in Matthew 18?
You got a problem with yourbrother.
Go to the altar, leave youroffering and then go get it
right.
Why does he say that If you lookat Scripture Old and New
Testament you don't dare comebefore the Lord without an
offering, right?
So we know that 70% 80% of thepeople in any church in America
(23:35):
never give a dime to the Lord,and so they've automatically
drawn a line in the sand andsaid here's a place I won't
cross.
Well, then they sit back andwonder why they don't experience
God better.
Right, see, it's not about themoney, because what the money
says is I trust you, right, Iknow you're going to take care
(24:00):
of me if I honor you with whatyou've blessed me with.
And the average Christian justcannot get a hold of that
concept.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
One of the things me and my family have found through
the years is that the Lord hasalways taken care of us, and
I've heard people say it.
I was just speaking to a newChristian not that long ago and
he was like, yeah, I still justdon't like it when the pastor
speaks about money and I lovethis because it's an opportunity
for me to share and I alwayssay well, if the pastor you're
(24:31):
listening to is not teaching youabout money, he's not properly
preaching the word to you.
That's right, because that'spart of growing, that's part of
discipleship.
If you're not giving, thenwhere's your heart?
Because where your money is,that's where your heart is.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's what Jesus said right?
Yeah, that's right.
That's what Jesus said right?
Yeah, that's right.
And since he designed us, heprobably knows that's right.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Exactly yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
It's amazing, steve, to think about that only 20,
probably less than that percentof people in every church is
giving.
I mean, can you imagine weprobably would have reached all
four corners of the earth by now?
Absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Our church is a little different.
We got about 35, 40% that aregivers.
It's amazing, but they're nottithers, they're small givers.
So our per capita these peoplethat study all this stuff our
average gift is $38 perindividual and the average when
(25:29):
you get up into the Bible beltis $78 per individual.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So you know a family of Per month or per week.
Per week, Per week, 38 a weekPer worship service yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
So you got you know a family of four here giving $40.
A family of four in JacksonMississippi, birmingham Alabama,
giving $150, $200.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
And so we're blessed here.
We were able to do ministry andpay the bills.
But if we could just get ourpeople to become obedient and to
give even at the nationalaverage not even exceed that we
could do so much for the kingdomof God.
Because it takes money to doministry.
(26:17):
That's just the reality.
But that's not the end, all tobe all.
The main thing is you're notgoing to experience deep worship
if you're holding on to thedollar with a clenched fist.
God will not bless that kind oflife.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's right.
I think it was in one of yoursermons recently with the last
few weeks.
You brought up where Jesus saidyou can't love both.
You either love God or lovemoney.
That's right, and so there'szero tension.
It's either one or the other.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, you know, yeah, and look, it's been said that
you don't have to be rich to begenerous, you just have to be
generous to be generous, right?
I know families that are whatwe would classify in America as
the working poor, and they'revery greedy.
They don't make a lot of money,but what they make, they're
very greedy about it.
(27:14):
I know rich families the sameway, and likewise I know rich
families and poor families thatare very generous, and so it's a
hard issue.
It's not a money issue, it's ahard issue, right.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It's not a money issue, it's a heart issue.
Yeah, yeah, amen.
So last question is how can weencourage others to make worship
a priority in their life?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Well, they've got to understand they were created to
worship holy God.
Your number one purpose as abeliever on planet earth is to
worship Holy God.
All this other stuff we do inchurch is a byproduct, and so I
think when you understand whatfirst place in your life, first
(27:59):
position, ought to be, it allbegins to line up and make sense
.
So if they can understand, ifthey can grasp that God created
you with a purpose, that purposeis to give Him honor and glory.
You are His greatest creationand so you're to point back to
(28:23):
Him in every way and give himhonor and glory.
That's your purpose.
So if you can understand that,worship will become so much more
meaningful for you.
That's that whole discussion.
Church has been fighting overmusic for 20 years now, and it's
so sad, because what makesChristian music is not the
(28:47):
musical arrangement, it's thewords of the song, is what makes
it Christian music, and so weget people with all these
preferences.
Well, I don't care if you'resinging hymns or choruses or
chanting like an old school monk, it doesn't matter.
(29:08):
What are you saying, right?
What are you saying, and areyou saying it with your heart
and an open life when you do it?
That's what matters, and so weare so superficial in the modern
day church.
We go to church because we likewhat they do, right, and I
(29:30):
think that's what's created ageneration of believers that are
about a half inch deep and fourmiles wide, right, you know.
So, yeah, you got to understandyour purpose, your purpose.
You are here, first andforemost, to worship your
creator.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Amen, amen.
Well, I appreciate you beinghere.
Pastor Steve, happy to be here.
Thank you, we'll see you guyson the next one.
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