March 20, 2025 • 22 mins
We dig into the book of Jeremiah and discover striking parallels between ancient Judah's cultural decline and our modern world, exploring how God's truth speaks to divisive times.
• Understanding the historical context of Jeremiah as the "weeping prophet"
• Exploring the tension between God's righteousness and His grace in a world that rejects His truth
• Confronting how cultural pressure and comfort numb our hearts to sin and spiritual urgency
• Examining why crisis often brings spiritual awakening while revealing superficial faith
• Learning to balance truth-telling with genuine love when sharing faith in a hostile culture
• Recognizing we are "not in management" - our job is to faithfully share God's message, not control outcomes
• Developing Jeremiah's heart for the lost through intercessory prayer and continued faithfulness
• Finding peace when prayers seem unanswered by trusting in God's ultimate sovereignty
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Amen, reminder for us to recall in today's divisive
and dark culture, fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture, allow this
podcast to inspire and motivateyou on your faith journey.
Well hello, steve, welcome back.
Good morning, glad to be herewith you today.
Again.
Happy to be here.
I'm excited to embark onanother series.
(00:41):
We're going to be digging intoJeremiah a little bit, and I
think what we'll find throughthis study is that there's a lot
of similarities between whathappened with Jeremiah back then
and what we're going throughtoday.
So what I'd like to do is justfill everyone in on a quick
contextual study, just kind ofwhat's going on around the scene
during that time, and then I'llread the passage and we'll jump
right in.
(01:01):
One of the things that in myresearch that reminded me of the
time of Jeremiah was theconflict that Jerusalem was
going through during this time.
Jeremiah was there with thelast five kings in Judah.
He witnessed the fall ofJerusalem to Babylon in 586 BC
and God used Babylon forjudgment on Israel.
(01:25):
That time, egypt attempted tocontrol Judah but was defeated
by Babylon.
I mean this was a time whenBabylon was the place.
I mean this was the epicenterof military and cultural reign.
A couple of theological thingsas we go through that will
continue to come up is thatJudah was urged to return to God
(01:46):
but refused, and Jeremiah isknown as the weeping prophet
because he basically beggedJudah to turn and they didn't.
Babylon was used as God'sinstrument of judgment, and this
is in Jeremiah when the newcovenant is mentioned.
God says that the law will bewritten on their hearts, we'll
(02:07):
have a personal relationshipwith God and there will be
forgiveness of sins.
And that's when you reallybegin to see and in times before
but the messianic hope of ourlife in Jesus Christ.
And so Jeremiah facedpersecution, imprisonment.
And so Jeremiah facedpersecution, imprisonment and
rejection, but ultimately heremained faithful to God's call.
(02:28):
And so we're in today.
We're in Jeremiah, chapter 8,verses 18, through chapter 9,
verse 1.
Jeremiah is gone.
Grief is upon me.
My heart is sick within me.
Behold the cry of the daughterof my people from the length and
(02:49):
breadth of the land.
Is the Lord not in Zion?
Is her king not in her?
Why have they provoked me toanger with their carved images
and their foreign idols?
The harvest is past, the summeris ended and we are not saved
For the wound of the daughter ofmy people is my heart wounded.
I mourn and dismay has takenhold on me.
(03:10):
Is there no balm in Gilead?
Is there no physician there?
Why, then, has the health ofthe daughter of my people not
been restored?
Oh, that my head were watersand my eyes a fountain of tears
that I might weep day and nightfor the slain of the.
In this, steve, we seeobviously Jeremiah's grieving
(03:32):
over Judah's unfaithfulness andimpending judgment.
But why did it matter toJeremiah that Judah was
unfaithful?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, I think, first and foremost, this is his people
.
Well, I think, first andforemost, this is his people,
you know, and God sent him tothese people to instruct them,
to teach them, to try to keepthem on the right track, and
they're rejecting the law of Godand the teaching of Jeremiah
and insisting on going down anopposite path that's going to
(04:05):
lead them to destruction.
So I think Jeremiah understandsthis is not going to end.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
well, you know and he cares deeply for these people.
There's a dynamic happening inthe text.
There's a tension between God'srighteousness and His grace and
I was just speaking with a goodfriend of mine.
I started discipling one of myneighbors in the neighborhood
and he had some real awesomequestions.
(04:32):
You know, when someone's freshand they just start reading the
Word, they're like why is thisthere?
Why is that there?
And one of the things hementioned and it brought memory
to me when I first beganmentioning was this tension of
God in the Old Testament.
Why did he seem so angry andwrathful?
(04:55):
How can we read Jeremiah andread other texts in the Old
Testament and balance out thattension in our own minds as
we're reading?
And preparing.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Well, the reason we struggle with that is because we
don't understand the holinessof God.
The Bible tells us our God's ajealous God.
He created us, he owns us, heis our master and he will not
compete with any other gods.
And so, truth be known, he hasthe right to smash us like a bug
(05:26):
, but he doesn't because of hisgrace.
And so we question these thingsbecause we don't understand, I
think, the effect that our sinhas on the heart of God, effect
that our sin has on the heart ofGod, and you know, when we
(05:51):
think about what he's done forus.
Israel's a prime example.
You know, he's brought them outof slavery, he's cared for them
, he's fed them, he's wateredthem, he's taken care of them,
and their response is to worshipother gods.
See is to worship other gods,right, see.
And so there is a wrath of Godthat in modern-day Christianity
(06:11):
for sure no-transcript.
And I like to tell people I'mnot your judge, but you do have
one, because we have so many inmodern Christianity who believe
there is no judgment, it's justall sweet love and kumbaya.
So, yeah, I think that if webetter understood the holiness
(06:34):
of God, I think that if webetter understood the holiness
of God and we understood what itmeans when we say he is God
with a capital G, then thosequestions wouldn't be as hard
for us.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Right right, many in our culture, not so much in
America, I mean.
Some people may argue thatwe're being targeted in America,
but truly we don't experiencepersecution.
There have been moments I'mthinking of a preacher in
Arizona just two years ago gotshot in the head as he was
preaching on a street corner.
Some of us may be targets here,definitely in other countries.
(07:15):
How does this truth impact ustoday?
In other words, when we're outsharing our faith and we're
living the testimony of Jesus,obviously there are going to be
people in the world that don'tlike that because they're of the
world.
And how do we have a sense ofurgency?
(07:35):
How do we grieve, like Jeremiahgrieved over sin, because, I'll
be honest, steve, I mean livingin the world we live in it's
easy to be desensitized to sin,and so I see something in
Jeremiah that I guess I wouldlike to have a little more of.
So how do we seek after that orreally try to get the heart of
(07:56):
the Lord in that way?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, well, I think you've got to genuinely believe
God is who he says he is.
You've got to genuinely believethere is a place called heaven
and hell, and you've got togenuinely believe that
everyone's headed to one ofthose places.
And so we all will receive theblessing of God at the end of
(08:20):
our time here on planet Earth orwe'll receive the wrath of God.
It's our choice, and so we areso spoiled in this country we
don't know what difficult is.
I get amused.
These millennials sit in thecoffee shops with their $2,000,
$3,000, $4,000 laptops, drinking$8 coffee and they think
(08:44):
they've been abused, they thinkthey're not getting a slice of
the American pie and life ishorrible.
But what it really boils down tois, as you said, between our
cultural understandings of whatsin is because unfortunately, I
think most people are gettingtheir understanding from
(09:08):
wherever not from Scripture butso between cultural
understanding and our lack ofknowing the Word of God and a
reverence for a holy God.
We naturally don't have abroken heart for lost people and
it happens so easily.
(09:29):
It just happens as you gothrough your life.
You know the next thing.
You know you're watching thingson TV you wouldn't watch five
years ago because it's socommonplace, right, you know?
And so we have to get back onour knees and into the Word and
(09:50):
allow God to speak into usbefore we'll have a heart for a
world that's unfortunately dyingand going to hell.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Right, a world that's unfortunately dying and going
to hell Right.
Could that be part of thereason why some of the greatest
movements of God happen aftercrisis?
Because it seems like in ourlives that's the one thing that
gets our attention as humans,that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
There's an old saying in ministry that you can have
your best opportunity to talk tosomebody about Jesus after
they're married, after theirchildren are born, after a death
in their family, and those arejust normal life cycles we all
go through.
(10:36):
But something like 9-11, we sawpeople flooding back to the
church, but it didn't last long.
We got short memories.
I think the reality is thatwhen we're in pain, we're
looking for relief.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
You know, and our problem is we're not looking for
the one who gives that reliefwhen we're not in pain.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And COVID was interesting too, because there
were some churches thatexperienced the decline and
others that experienced anuptick right after COVID.
And in my mind, while COVID washappening, I remember thinking
like, oh, this is going to begreat for the church, people are
going to flock to the doors.
But it wasn't like that andI've always wondered why.
(11:25):
Because that was a pretty bigcrisis, but there's so much
skepticism surrounding the wholeordeal.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, I believe God is growing His church and I
believe he's purging his churchat the same time.
Yes, I'll give you an example.
I don't know how many times I'mat a local restaurant right
down the street after COVID andI'd observe somebody in our
(11:52):
church and they're eating lunch,no mask, and they're like
little social butterflies,speaking to everybody in the
restaurant, and then they see me.
Oh, we're just so scared ofCOVID, we're going to get back.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, you're not scared of.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
COVID, you didn't really want to be here and for
whatever reason, covid gave youyour exit, and so I think God's
purging his church also, and Ithink we're going to be a
stronger church for it, not justus.
I think across the world Inthose times of crisis, you tend
(12:32):
to lose the fringe those thataren't really bought in.
They don't really have a deeprelationship with Jesus.
It's novelty to them.
They're interested, but they'venever come to Christ, they've
never bought in.
And so, yeah, I think that inCOVID, exposed the fringe is
(12:56):
what I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, that's good.
So how do we balance love forpeople with the urgency of God's
truth?
So we, as believers, we knowthat there's a heaven and hell,
we know that there's a lost anddying world, we know that the
time is urgent, but we also knowthat we can't push people too
hard.
And so what's the balance withthat?
(13:20):
How we do evangelism, how welove the lost in our world.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
It's a difficult balance.
I think we have to tell thetruth, regardless of the
consequences.
Jeremiah certainly did that.
He paid a high price for beingfaithful to God's truth and
today we pay a price I wouldn'tsay a high price, but we pay a
(13:46):
price for being faithful toGod's truth and we have to
remember that we are not holyGod.
We didn't write the book.
We don't have the authority tochange the book to make people
feel better about their sin, andI've had many conversations
with people who, basically, aretalking to me wanting me to
(14:11):
condone their sin and be in thechurch, and I always say to them
I'm in advertising.
God called me to tell you thestory in the book and your job
is to figure it out between youand him when you are exposed to
the truth.
And so we don't want to be mean, hateful evil and unfortunately
(14:34):
, some Christians go down thatpath.
I think that's a tragedy.
Go down that path.
I think that's a tragedy.
I think that when we walk awayfrom someone we've shared Jesus
with, the worst thought theyought to ever have about us is
that was a nice guy.
I don't believe what he said,but he's a nice guy.
(14:58):
Yeah, I always cringe when Isee the guy on the street corner
screaming at people and things.
You're not going to hateanybody to heaven, Right.
So everything we do should bedone in love and genuine love.
Not a make-believe love, but agenuine love.
We genuinely care about them.
We genuinely want to see themin glory with us one day, and it
(15:25):
should break our hearts whenthey reject that.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I love.
I think the first time I heardyou say that was Sunday when you
shared a story.
I forget the exact story, butyou mentioned you were talking
to someone and you told themyou're not in management.
You know how you can't controlthat.
I love that.
I'm like I'm going to use thatthat was a good one.
So how does Jeremiah'scompassion reflect God's heart
(15:49):
for the lost?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Well, I think when we look at Scripture overall and I
believe in the sovereignty ofGod deeply I believe he calls us
, he draws us.
Scripture says that.
Where I differ with some othersis I don't think he
predetermines the outcome ofthat drawing.
(16:12):
I believe firmly we have achoice in that choice in that.
And so you know, we have torealize that people have a
choice that they're going tomake and we want to do
everything we can to love theminto the proper choice so they
(16:34):
become a believer, part of thekingdom of God, just like us.
But we got to tell the story.
We got to tell the story, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Right.
One of the things I realizedjust recently and I've been
listening to you since I wassaved, 13, 14 years ago the
power of a story.
You know you tell stories welland you know when I'm looking at
the gospel accounts, jesus toldstories and we connect with
people through stories and justlike reading the narrative of
(17:09):
Jeremiah and connecting withthat, we're seeing the
distraught and the sin in Judahand we're seeing his heart and
how he's one of the prophets andhe's reflecting the heart of
God and it seems to me, like yousaid earlier, the tension in
our culture plays such a factoron the numbing of our hearts and
(17:34):
to me that's a sad state to bein.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yes, well, I think we're a reflection of Judah.
I think you can read Jeremiahand you see as if you're looking
in a mirror.
We're in that time.
We're an incredibly blessednation.
God's been so good to us and wechase our own idols, we chase
(17:58):
our own gods and we can't figureout why God would have a
problem with that.
You know, as I said recently,we have redefined Scripture.
You know, we have an epidemicof people living together
outside of the marriage bond andthey don't seem to have any
problem with that.
(18:19):
But if you don't put yourgrocery cart back at the grocery
store, you're a sinner, youknow.
So we've created our own moralcode and unfortunately, we're
naive enough to think God'sgoing to follow our created
moral code.
Right, he never did that before, so I'm pretty sure he's not
(18:41):
going to do it now Right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Amen.
What does Jeremiah teach usabout intercessory prayer?
I mean, we know that he had aheart of God, we know he cared
for his people and we know heprayed for his people.
What can we learn from that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Well, I think the key to intercessory prayer is
you're faithful from that.
Well, I think the key tointercessory prayer is you're
faithful.
You're faithful, you've got aheart for something or someone
and you lift it to the Lord overand over and over and over.
You know that New Testamentpassage knock, seek and ask is
in the perfect tense Keepknocking, keep seeking, keep
(19:20):
asking until you get abreakthrough or an answer in
that prayer.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And even though Jeremiah didn't get the answer
immediately he was looking for,god did answer his prayers
eventually, that's right, therewas a young lady that I prayed
with a few weeks ago and therewas some issues with her unborn
child and it was from prettyserious issues and we prayed and
(19:50):
then she came up to me lastweek saying, hey, everything is
good, we got a good report, andthat's exciting to see when God
comes through.
But so many times there aresituations like that and it
doesn't turn out well.
So what would you say to thosewho maybe have been praying
about something specific but Godhasn't answered and in their
(20:11):
mind it doesn't seem like he'slistening or that he will answer
favorably for their situation?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, I've taught this over the years and it comes
from deep within me.
My middle son was a twin and Ihad a little girl and we lost
her at seven months of age witha malignant brain tumor.
She was born with it.
Nobody knew, and I wascompleting my master's in
(20:37):
seminary at the time and,ironically, taking the theology
class and so went to lunch withProfessor J Terry Young one day
and I made the famous statementthat we all tend to make.
You know, dr Young, when I getto heaven I'm going to ask God
why little babies have to die.
(20:58):
We all think we have questions,and Dr Young was about legally
blind.
He had these big old Coke bottleglasses and they were four
inches thick, so his eyeballswere this big, looking at me,
and he said when you get toheaven, when you walk into the
throne room of God, you won'thave any questions.
(21:19):
Now that may seemoversimplified, but as one who's
lived through that, I can tellyou that I believe, when we see
the face of Jesus firsthand,that we won't have any arrogance
, we won't have any malice, wewon't have any questions, we
(21:39):
won't have any malice, we won'thave any questions.
And so we ask those questions,and I say this with all love and
kindness, because we reallydon't trust him.
If we really believe he'ssovereign, whatever he does,
(22:00):
it's going to be all right.
You know, we may not understandwhy, and that's hard for us.
I'm not saying the questionsare not legitimate.
What I am saying is they comeout of a place of insecurity and
doubt in our God, and so Ibelieve deeply in his
(22:20):
sovereignty and that whatever hedoes or allows to happen, he's
still in control.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Amen, yeah, amen.
Well, I think we'll end it onthat note, brother, unless you
got anything else.
No, that was good.
Well, thank you, steve.
Thank you, see you all on thenext one.
Amen, reminder for us to recall in today's divisive
and dark culture, fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture, allow this
podcast to inspire and motivateyou on your faith journey.
Well hello, steve, welcome back.
Good morning, glad to be herewith you today.
Again.
Happy to be here.
I'm excited to embark onanother series.
(00:41):
We're going to be digging intoJeremiah a little bit, and I
think what we'll find throughthis study is that there's a lot
of similarities between whathappened with Jeremiah back then
and what we're going throughtoday.
So what I'd like to do is justfill everyone in on a quick
contextual study, just kind ofwhat's going on around the scene
during that time, and then I'llread the passage and we'll jump
right in.
(01:01):
One of the things that in myresearch that reminded me of the
time of Jeremiah was theconflict that Jerusalem was
going through during this time.
Jeremiah was there with thelast five kings in Judah.
He witnessed the fall ofJerusalem to Babylon in 586 BC
and God used Babylon forjudgment on Israel.
(01:25):
That time, egypt attempted tocontrol Judah but was defeated
by Babylon.
I mean this was a time whenBabylon was the place.
I mean this was the epicenterof military and cultural reign.
A couple of theological thingsas we go through that will
continue to come up is thatJudah was urged to return to God
(01:46):
but refused, and Jeremiah isknown as the weeping prophet
because he basically beggedJudah to turn and they didn't.
Babylon was used as God'sinstrument of judgment, and this
is in Jeremiah when the newcovenant is mentioned.
God says that the law will bewritten on their hearts, we'll
(02:07):
have a personal relationshipwith God and there will be
forgiveness of sins.
And that's when you reallybegin to see and in times before
but the messianic hope of ourlife in Jesus Christ.
And so Jeremiah facedpersecution, imprisonment.
And so Jeremiah facedpersecution, imprisonment and
rejection, but ultimately heremained faithful to God's call.
(02:28):
And so we're in today.
We're in Jeremiah, chapter 8,verses 18, through chapter 9,
verse 1.
Jeremiah is gone.
Grief is upon me.
My heart is sick within me.
Behold the cry of the daughterof my people from the length and
(02:49):
breadth of the land.
Is the Lord not in Zion?
Is her king not in her?
Why have they provoked me toanger with their carved images
and their foreign idols?
The harvest is past, the summeris ended and we are not saved
For the wound of the daughter ofmy people is my heart wounded.
I mourn and dismay has takenhold on me.
(03:10):
Is there no balm in Gilead?
Is there no physician there?
Why, then, has the health ofthe daughter of my people not
been restored?
Oh, that my head were watersand my eyes a fountain of tears
that I might weep day and nightfor the slain of the.
In this, steve, we seeobviously Jeremiah's grieving
(03:32):
over Judah's unfaithfulness andimpending judgment.
But why did it matter toJeremiah that Judah was
unfaithful?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, I think, first and foremost, this is his people
.
Well, I think, first andforemost, this is his people,
you know, and God sent him tothese people to instruct them,
to teach them, to try to keepthem on the right track, and
they're rejecting the law of Godand the teaching of Jeremiah
and insisting on going down anopposite path that's going to
(04:05):
lead them to destruction.
So I think Jeremiah understandsthis is not going to end.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
well, you know and he cares deeply for these people.
There's a dynamic happening inthe text.
There's a tension between God'srighteousness and His grace and
I was just speaking with a goodfriend of mine.
I started discipling one of myneighbors in the neighborhood
and he had some real awesomequestions.
(04:32):
You know, when someone's freshand they just start reading the
Word, they're like why is thisthere?
Why is that there?
And one of the things hementioned and it brought memory
to me when I first beganmentioning was this tension of
God in the Old Testament.
Why did he seem so angry andwrathful?
(04:55):
How can we read Jeremiah andread other texts in the Old
Testament and balance out thattension in our own minds as
we're reading?
And preparing.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Well, the reason we struggle with that is because we
don't understand the holinessof God.
The Bible tells us our God's ajealous God.
He created us, he owns us, heis our master and he will not
compete with any other gods.
And so, truth be known, he hasthe right to smash us like a bug
(05:26):
, but he doesn't because of hisgrace.
And so we question these thingsbecause we don't understand, I
think, the effect that our sinhas on the heart of God, effect
that our sin has on the heart ofGod, and you know, when we
(05:51):
think about what he's done forus.
Israel's a prime example.
You know, he's brought them outof slavery, he's cared for them
, he's fed them, he's wateredthem, he's taken care of them,
and their response is to worshipother gods.
See is to worship other gods,right, see.
And so there is a wrath of Godthat in modern-day Christianity
(06:11):
for sure no-transcript.
And I like to tell people I'mnot your judge, but you do have
one, because we have so many inmodern Christianity who believe
there is no judgment, it's justall sweet love and kumbaya.
So, yeah, I think that if webetter understood the holiness
(06:34):
of God, I think that if webetter understood the holiness
of God and we understood what itmeans when we say he is God
with a capital G, then thosequestions wouldn't be as hard
for us.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Right right, many in our culture, not so much in
America, I mean.
Some people may argue thatwe're being targeted in America,
but truly we don't experiencepersecution.
There have been moments I'mthinking of a preacher in
Arizona just two years ago gotshot in the head as he was
preaching on a street corner.
Some of us may be targets here,definitely in other countries.
(07:15):
How does this truth impact ustoday?
In other words, when we're outsharing our faith and we're
living the testimony of Jesus,obviously there are going to be
people in the world that don'tlike that because they're of the
world.
And how do we have a sense ofurgency?
(07:35):
How do we grieve, like Jeremiahgrieved over sin, because, I'll
be honest, steve, I mean livingin the world we live in it's
easy to be desensitized to sin,and so I see something in
Jeremiah that I guess I wouldlike to have a little more of.
So how do we seek after that orreally try to get the heart of
(07:56):
the Lord in that way?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, well, I think you've got to genuinely believe
God is who he says he is.
You've got to genuinely believethere is a place called heaven
and hell, and you've got togenuinely believe that
everyone's headed to one ofthose places.
And so we all will receive theblessing of God at the end of
(08:20):
our time here on planet Earth orwe'll receive the wrath of God.
It's our choice, and so we areso spoiled in this country we
don't know what difficult is.
I get amused.
These millennials sit in thecoffee shops with their $2,000,
$3,000, $4,000 laptops, drinking$8 coffee and they think
(08:44):
they've been abused, they thinkthey're not getting a slice of
the American pie and life ishorrible.
But what it really boils down tois, as you said, between our
cultural understandings of whatsin is because unfortunately, I
think most people are gettingtheir understanding from
(09:08):
wherever not from Scripture butso between cultural
understanding and our lack ofknowing the Word of God and a
reverence for a holy God.
We naturally don't have abroken heart for lost people and
it happens so easily.
(09:29):
It just happens as you gothrough your life.
You know the next thing.
You know you're watching thingson TV you wouldn't watch five
years ago because it's socommonplace, right, you know?
And so we have to get back onour knees and into the Word and
(09:50):
allow God to speak into usbefore we'll have a heart for a
world that's unfortunately dyingand going to hell.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Right, a world that's unfortunately dying and going
to hell Right.
Could that be part of thereason why some of the greatest
movements of God happen aftercrisis?
Because it seems like in ourlives that's the one thing that
gets our attention as humans,that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
There's an old saying in ministry that you can have
your best opportunity to talk tosomebody about Jesus after
they're married, after theirchildren are born, after a death
in their family, and those arejust normal life cycles we all
go through.
(10:36):
But something like 9-11, we sawpeople flooding back to the
church, but it didn't last long.
We got short memories.
I think the reality is thatwhen we're in pain, we're
looking for relief.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
You know, and our problem is we're not looking for
the one who gives that reliefwhen we're not in pain.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And COVID was interesting too, because there
were some churches thatexperienced the decline and
others that experienced anuptick right after COVID.
And in my mind, while COVID washappening, I remember thinking
like, oh, this is going to begreat for the church, people are
going to flock to the doors.
But it wasn't like that andI've always wondered why.
(11:25):
Because that was a pretty bigcrisis, but there's so much
skepticism surrounding the wholeordeal.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, I believe God is growing His church and I
believe he's purging his churchat the same time.
Yes, I'll give you an example.
I don't know how many times I'mat a local restaurant right
down the street after COVID andI'd observe somebody in our
(11:52):
church and they're eating lunch,no mask, and they're like
little social butterflies,speaking to everybody in the
restaurant, and then they see me.
Oh, we're just so scared ofCOVID, we're going to get back.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, you're not scared of.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
COVID, you didn't really want to be here and for
whatever reason, covid gave youyour exit, and so I think God's
purging his church also, and Ithink we're going to be a
stronger church for it, not justus.
I think across the world Inthose times of crisis, you tend
(12:32):
to lose the fringe those thataren't really bought in.
They don't really have a deeprelationship with Jesus.
It's novelty to them.
They're interested, but they'venever come to Christ, they've
never bought in.
And so, yeah, I think that inCOVID, exposed the fringe is
(12:56):
what I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, that's good.
So how do we balance love forpeople with the urgency of God's
truth?
So we, as believers, we knowthat there's a heaven and hell,
we know that there's a lost anddying world, we know that the
time is urgent, but we also knowthat we can't push people too
hard.
And so what's the balance withthat?
(13:20):
How we do evangelism, how welove the lost in our world.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
It's a difficult balance.
I think we have to tell thetruth, regardless of the
consequences.
Jeremiah certainly did that.
He paid a high price for beingfaithful to God's truth and
today we pay a price I wouldn'tsay a high price, but we pay a
(13:46):
price for being faithful toGod's truth and we have to
remember that we are not holyGod.
We didn't write the book.
We don't have the authority tochange the book to make people
feel better about their sin, andI've had many conversations
with people who, basically, aretalking to me wanting me to
(14:11):
condone their sin and be in thechurch, and I always say to them
I'm in advertising.
God called me to tell you thestory in the book and your job
is to figure it out between youand him when you are exposed to
the truth.
And so we don't want to be mean, hateful evil and unfortunately
(14:34):
, some Christians go down thatpath.
I think that's a tragedy.
Go down that path.
I think that's a tragedy.
I think that when we walk awayfrom someone we've shared Jesus
with, the worst thought theyought to ever have about us is
that was a nice guy.
I don't believe what he said,but he's a nice guy.
(14:58):
Yeah, I always cringe when Isee the guy on the street corner
screaming at people and things.
You're not going to hateanybody to heaven, Right.
So everything we do should bedone in love and genuine love.
Not a make-believe love, but agenuine love.
We genuinely care about them.
We genuinely want to see themin glory with us one day, and it
(15:25):
should break our hearts whenthey reject that.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I love.
I think the first time I heardyou say that was Sunday when you
shared a story.
I forget the exact story, butyou mentioned you were talking
to someone and you told themyou're not in management.
You know how you can't controlthat.
I love that.
I'm like I'm going to use thatthat was a good one.
So how does Jeremiah'scompassion reflect God's heart
(15:49):
for the lost?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Well, I think when we look at Scripture overall and I
believe in the sovereignty ofGod deeply I believe he calls us
, he draws us.
Scripture says that.
Where I differ with some othersis I don't think he
predetermines the outcome ofthat drawing.
(16:12):
I believe firmly we have achoice in that choice in that.
And so you know, we have torealize that people have a
choice that they're going tomake and we want to do
everything we can to love theminto the proper choice so they
(16:34):
become a believer, part of thekingdom of God, just like us.
But we got to tell the story.
We got to tell the story, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Right.
One of the things I realizedjust recently and I've been
listening to you since I wassaved, 13, 14 years ago the
power of a story.
You know you tell stories welland you know when I'm looking at
the gospel accounts, jesus toldstories and we connect with
people through stories and justlike reading the narrative of
(17:09):
Jeremiah and connecting withthat, we're seeing the
distraught and the sin in Judahand we're seeing his heart and
how he's one of the prophets andhe's reflecting the heart of
God and it seems to me, like yousaid earlier, the tension in
our culture plays such a factoron the numbing of our hearts and
(17:34):
to me that's a sad state to bein.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yes, well, I think we're a reflection of Judah.
I think you can read Jeremiahand you see as if you're looking
in a mirror.
We're in that time.
We're an incredibly blessednation.
God's been so good to us and wechase our own idols, we chase
(17:58):
our own gods and we can't figureout why God would have a
problem with that.
You know, as I said recently,we have redefined Scripture.
You know, we have an epidemicof people living together
outside of the marriage bond andthey don't seem to have any
problem with that.
(18:19):
But if you don't put yourgrocery cart back at the grocery
store, you're a sinner, youknow.
So we've created our own moralcode and unfortunately, we're
naive enough to think God'sgoing to follow our created
moral code.
Right, he never did that before, so I'm pretty sure he's not
(18:41):
going to do it now Right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Amen.
What does Jeremiah teach usabout intercessory prayer?
I mean, we know that he had aheart of God, we know he cared
for his people and we know heprayed for his people.
What can we learn from that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Well, I think the key to intercessory prayer is
you're faithful from that.
Well, I think the key tointercessory prayer is you're
faithful.
You're faithful, you've got aheart for something or someone
and you lift it to the Lord overand over and over and over.
You know that New Testamentpassage knock, seek and ask is
in the perfect tense Keepknocking, keep seeking, keep
(19:20):
asking until you get abreakthrough or an answer in
that prayer.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And even though Jeremiah didn't get the answer
immediately he was looking for,god did answer his prayers
eventually, that's right, therewas a young lady that I prayed
with a few weeks ago and therewas some issues with her unborn
child and it was from prettyserious issues and we prayed and
(19:50):
then she came up to me lastweek saying, hey, everything is
good, we got a good report, andthat's exciting to see when God
comes through.
But so many times there aresituations like that and it
doesn't turn out well.
So what would you say to thosewho maybe have been praying
about something specific but Godhasn't answered and in their
(20:11):
mind it doesn't seem like he'slistening or that he will answer
favorably for their situation?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, I've taught this over the years and it comes
from deep within me.
My middle son was a twin and Ihad a little girl and we lost
her at seven months of age witha malignant brain tumor.
She was born with it.
Nobody knew, and I wascompleting my master's in
(20:37):
seminary at the time and,ironically, taking the theology
class and so went to lunch withProfessor J Terry Young one day
and I made the famous statementthat we all tend to make.
You know, dr Young, when I getto heaven I'm going to ask God
why little babies have to die.
(20:58):
We all think we have questions,and Dr Young was about legally
blind.
He had these big old Coke bottleglasses and they were four
inches thick, so his eyeballswere this big, looking at me,
and he said when you get toheaven, when you walk into the
throne room of God, you won'thave any questions.
(21:19):
Now that may seemoversimplified, but as one who's
lived through that, I can tellyou that I believe, when we see
the face of Jesus firsthand,that we won't have any arrogance
, we won't have any malice, wewon't have any questions, we
(21:39):
won't have any malice, we won'thave any questions.
And so we ask those questions,and I say this with all love and
kindness, because we reallydon't trust him.
If we really believe he'ssovereign, whatever he does,
(22:00):
it's going to be all right.
You know, we may not understandwhy, and that's hard for us.
I'm not saying the questionsare not legitimate.
What I am saying is they comeout of a place of insecurity and
doubt in our God, and so Ibelieve deeply in his
(22:20):
sovereignty and that whatever hedoes or allows to happen, he's
still in control.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Amen, yeah, amen.
Well, I think we'll end it onthat note, brother, unless you
got anything else.
No, that was good.
Well, thank you, steve.
Thank you, see you all on thenext one.
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