September 18, 2025 • 24 mins
Jesus challenges us with the often-overlooked parable of the two sons, revealing how both empty promises and delayed obedience fall short of genuine faith. We explore the difference between religious performance and authentic heart transformation, examining how modern Christians often value image over true obedience.
• Words only have value when backed up by actions
• True repentance involves transformation, not merely compliance or empty words
• The gospel demands immediate response, as none of us knows how much time we have
• God has no grandchildren—each person must develop their own genuine relationship with Christ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Amen reminder for us to recall in today's divisive
and dark culture, Fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
All right.
Well, we're so glad you're backwith us for the Main Thing
podcast with Pastor Steve.
Pastor Steve, thanks for beinghere, absolutely.
As always you kind of have to behere because your name's on it.
So glad you're here.
But we're going to do a parabletoday.
That's really kind of one ofthose obscure parables.
Most people probably have readit and maybe just went right
(00:56):
over it.
Or you might read this parableand they'd be like that's not in
the Bible, but it is so beforewe get to the scripture in the
Bible, but it is so before weget to the Scripture.
I got a question for you.
Let's start here.
What matters more, our words orour actions?
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Oh, our actions absolutely.
Words only have value whenthey're backed up with action.
Otherwise they're meaningless.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Okay, so I want to go off on a little bit of a
tangent here, before we read thescripture.
I was thinking this morning asI was preparing for this between
me, you and Chet, we have 15kids, and I believe and correct
me if I'm wrong, but you havefive grandchildren, right?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
All right.
So thinking back to raisingyour boys and I'm thinking back
to raising my kids, what is oneof the hardest things about
raising kids, in your opinion?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Probably the hardest thing, and I think it's a dual
thing living your life beforethem, because they observe, they
see who you are, how you handlethings, how you respond.
So, living your life beforethem in a way that would be
honoring to Christ, and thennavigating the values that
(02:15):
you're trying to instill in them, while fighting the values
culture is trying to instill inthem, but you couldn't have
answered that any better.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
We didn't talk about this question beforehand.
But to segue into that, whenwe're trying to instill values
and we want them to live acertain way, I'd add to that
that what we're trying to do isdo a heart change.
Yes, you know, and one of thethings I've found as we do this
parenting journey is you know,we can sometimes make our kids
(02:45):
do the right thing or say theright thing because they fear a
punishment or whatever, but wecan't make a heart change.
And I think, really, what we'retalking about today is this
parent who desires a heartchange of his kids.
Yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So let me read our parable.
This is Matthew 21, 28 through32.
It would just be called the twosons.
Here's what it says.
Jesus tells the peoplelistening probably some
Pharisees there and he says whatdo you think?
A man had two sons.
He went to the first and saidso who's Jesus talking to here?
Speaker 4 (03:58):
to start off with this parable, Well, he's talking
to the chief priests andscribes, if you back up in that
chapter, so he's talking to thechief priests and scribes, if
you back up in that chapter, sohe's talking to the religious
leaders of the day, and, if Iunderstand it correctly, the
conversation's about obedience,doing what the Father responding
(04:20):
to him in obedience, what he'sasked you to do.
He's never complimentary of thereligious leadership in the New
Testament.
They seem to always be missingthe mark, and so, as best I can
understand this parable, it'sabout obedience and the first
(04:42):
son you would think is obedient,but he's actually not Delayed,
obedience is disobedience.
And then the second son is justblatantly disobedient.
So both of them are disobedient, and then he drives home the
point of you know, when you'reconfronted with the opportunity
(05:03):
to know Christ with the gospel,you respond.
Neither one of these two sonsresponded correctly to the
father's request, and so they'reboth disobedient.
In that sense, they both missedthe mark.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
So would you say, this is in fact a gospel parable
.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
I believe it is.
Yes, yeah, it's a little morevague than a lot of the parables
, but yeah, I think it's veryclearly about the gospel.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
You know, as I read it and we talk about the gospel,
I think one of the thingsthat's been good over the years
is the experience.
Probably you had the experienceI had growing up in church.
It seemed to me that what I wastaught growing up is that your
salvation consisted of yourwords.
(05:57):
In other words, you pray theright prayer and you're saved.
And this one turns that on itshead right.
It absolutely does, because theword's been nothing here.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
You know I get frustrated when our Calvinist
brothers say things like there'sno such thing as a sinner's
prayer.
Well, but if you go to Romans,we're told to accept Christ into
our heart and our mind.
And so how do you do that?
I have never taught a personthat you just pray this prayer
(06:30):
and magically you're saved.
I think that what we call thesinner's prayer is just a tool,
okay, and then I always explainnow, in doing this, you're
committing your life to Christ,You're believing these things,
You're buying in.
He now is your master, yourboss.
(06:53):
Man, I've never once in my life,I believe, tried to teach
anybody easy believism.
Okay, but we have been guiltyof that in churches as a whole,
of telling people just come downthe aisle, pray this prayer,
you're in, you've punched yourticket, don't worry about a
(07:15):
thing.
And I think we probably havemisled not us individually here,
I don't believe we've done that, but a lot of evangelical
churches, I believe, have misleda lot of people.
And they prayed the prayer andthey don't understand.
There's a commitment and achange, a miracle that has to
(07:37):
take place.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So if we look at these two brothers or these two
sons, the second one said he'sgoing to go.
Two brothers or these two sons,the second one said he's going
to go and he never did.
Okay, so there's no repentance,there's no obedience there.
What does that look like today?
I guess when you were justtalking about the gospel, we
pray to prayer is that kind ofthe same thing, you think?
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Well, I think with the second son, he's just clear
I'm not interested, I don't wantit.
And so I think the way itcorresponds to us today is there
are a lot of times you sharethe gospel with your child or a
family member and they justreject it.
(08:20):
He rejected the father is whathe did in this parable.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And so the first son.
Would this represent, though,somebody who did come to Christ?
Was there repentance there byhis actions?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
You know, it's hard to know for sure, but it appears
to me that he went begrudgingly.
Okay, I can't state that for afact, that's just my opinion,
but it appears he wentbegrudgingly.
He didn't want to go, he toldhim he'd go, and out of
obligation he went begrudgingly.
He didn't want to go, he toldhim he'd go, and out of
obligation he went.
And I think, especially in theSouth, we have a lot of people
(08:59):
that attend church because it'swhat you do in the South, it's
cultural.
Good people go to church and Ithink he might line up with that
crowd pretty well.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Well, if I go back to the parenting thing for a
second, it makes me think about.
You know, with my kids, there'ssuch a difference between
telling them to do something andthen eventually going off and
doing it, and then doing whatneeds to be done long before you
ever say a word.
You know, that's when parentingbecomes, uh, really enjoyable,
(09:34):
I guess.
Yes, you know, yes, um, and sowe're looking at both these sons
, and whether it was I'm notgoing to do it or I'm going to
tell you I'll do it, I'm not, orI'm going to do it, but I don't
want to, but would they bothmiss the mark there?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
they both miss the mark.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, would you say.
That would maybe as hypocrisysome of the hypocrisy we see in
the church today Could be.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
I believe the Christian life is lived properly
when it's lived in a joyful,willing response.
We're not hedging, and I thinkyou see the first son hedging
and the second son flatlyrejecting.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, so what does true repentance look like, then,
for somebody who not goinggrudgingly, not being obedient
even though they don't reallywant to, or just outright
rejecting?
What does true repentance looklike when you have we're
presented with the gospel?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I think 2 Corinthians 5.17 is a definition of true
repentance.
The old things have passed away.
Behold, all things have becomenew.
It is a transformation of one'smind and heart.
Your intentions change yourappetite changes your language
changes your hopes and dreams,change your purpose for living
(10:54):
changes.
When we say the old things havepassed away, it's indicative of
my old life.
Everything I was has beenreplaced by the transformation
of Christ in my life, and sowhat you see in this parable is
two individuals that have notbeen transformed.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, so you know, I always think it's helpful when
you're reading Scripture to tryto put yourself back in that
time, in that culture, andpicture what it would have been
like.
So I picture Jesus talking tothis group of Pharisees, group
of scribes, group of religiousprofessionals, and maybe over on
the side, or probably becausethey don't feel comfortable
being near Jesus.
(11:36):
You got all the people in thegutters of life the prostitutes,
the tax collectors, the onesthat are hated and I just
picture Jesus looking at thePharisees and saying, yeah, you
guys don't have a chance.
Y'all are nothing like theseones over here who were obedient
.
And if we could move that overto today's culture, I mean, what
does that look like?
(11:57):
Who are the ones do you think?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Jesus would be saying you didn't accept.
Sure, we have to remember whatthe New Testament, jesus in
particular, is teaching us isreligion is a crutch, and this
is what we have to remember.
All religion is man-made in aneffort to worship God, and the
(12:23):
Jews, in their man-made religionin an effort to worship God,
got it totally wrong, and theywere putting ball and chain
around people's ankles.
There was no joy, there was nofreedom, there was no
expectation of good life inworshiping God.
(12:45):
It was all restrictions andrules and everything you
couldn't do and what you had todo to please God.
And Jesus comes along and hesays you'll know the truth and
the truth will set you free Freefrom what Religion, and we're
just as guilty.
(13:05):
Today we want to hold up ourreligion as our banner, and our
banner is not our religion, it'sJesus, and so I think we're
still making the same mistakes.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
You know, the Pharisees had all their rules in
regard to the Ten Commandmentsand all that and they said you
had to follow.
What are some rules we do today?
Do you think you know what Imean?
I know we have our unwrittenrules in church that if you do
this, it means you really loveJesus.
If you do this, you're a goodChristian.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Well, it's what I said in the last podcast.
It's the old adage I grew upwith you don't drink, cuss, chew
or run with girls that do.
We've got all these littlethings that, in our mind, make
you a good Christian or not, andthey have nothing to do with
(14:00):
our relationship with Christ.
You know, our relationship withChrist provides freedom to live
life in joy.
It's not constricting, it'sexpansive, and every church I
know, this one included.
You've got all these people whohave in their image, an image
(14:21):
in their mind.
This is what a Christian is andunfortunately, most of the time
they're totally off the mark.
You know, a good Christian doesthese things, whatever they may
have in their head, and if youdo this, you can't be a good
(14:44):
Christian.
I'll give you an example.
I served on a college board someyears back and we had this one
board member who wanted to getthe president run off.
So he comes to a board meetingand the president of the college
and the head of the Englishdepartment the president was a
man, head of the Englishdepartment was a woman and they
had been at a conferencetogether and this board member
(15:07):
came in and said and we need toaddress this trip because she
wore fishnet stockings on thistrip, mm-hmm, and I was blown
away.
I'm sitting here thinking whatdoes that mean?
He was obviously implying thatshe dressed inappropriately,
(15:34):
some kind of sexual innuendo orwhatever, but in his mind he was
very genuine.
In his mind, a Christian womanthat would wear fishnet
stockings was not a goodChristian.
See, that's the kind of stuffthat we come up with in our
heads.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, the big topic nowadays is yoga pants.
You know, yeah well.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
I'd be the first to say somebody need to tell
someone you know.
But, yeah, I'll leave thatthere.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
You're going to get us in trouble on the podcast.
We're going to have some emailshere.
Yeah, all right.
Well, you know, jesus even madeup a word for the Pharisees.
Before Jesus, nobody used theword hypocrite, right, okay,
called the Pharisees hypocrite,being something they weren't.
Do we have that issue in thechurch today?
Speaker 4 (16:26):
We do in its truest sense of the word.
Hypocrite was a word that wasused in the theater.
You know, in ancient theaters,when they changed characters,
they would put a mask over theirface to become a different
person.
And that's where that wordcomes from, and it's the idea
(16:47):
that you're wearing a mask.
You're not who you really are,you're someone else.
And look in its simplest form,all of us are hypocrites to some
degree.
There are times that, maybeintentionally or not
intentionally, we're not who wereally are in a moment, in a
(17:10):
place in time, and so you knowwe need to take that to heart.
I think Christ died for us tobe who we are in him, to be
genuine in him, not to behypocrites in any way.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So I think that brings up another question why
do we value image over obedience?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
I don't really understand it.
I think it's human nature.
We want to see the best inpeople.
We want to see people doingwhat we think is appropriate and
right, and the problem withthat is when it comes to image.
We all have our own set ofrules and guidelines as to what
the proper image is.
You know, james was very clearfaith without works is dead, and
(17:55):
so image is useless unless it'sbacked up by an actual doing of
what that image is.
You know, one of my favoritebooks and I forget the title one
of Jimmy Carter's CIA agentsthat was assigned to him wrote a
(18:18):
book, as they always do, afterCarter was out of office, and he
tells the story of how Carteralways carried his own suitcase.
He wanted people to see himcarrying his own suitcase, but
what people didn't know is itwas always empty.
He never carried his ownsuitcase, he just carried one to
(18:39):
give the image to people thathe was a regular guy.
In essence, he was not.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
You know it's funny Every morning Kelly and I get up
and we make coffee and we havesome time before the kids wake
up to talk and all that.
But I remember a couple ofyears ago when we started doing
that Kelly would never drink hercoffee and so it ended up just
getting poured down the sink.
And I remember one time I askedher about it she says I think I
like the idea of coffee betterthan I actually like coffee.
(19:07):
And I think that's what we doas Christians.
A lot of us like the idea ofbeing a Christian way more than
we like actually being aChristian.
And we see that everywhere insociety.
We see the kids playingbaseball.
Who've got the.
They look like major leaguersdecked out and they probably
(19:27):
can't catch a ground ball.
I know me and you see this onthe golf course when we see some
guy look like he's coming offthe PGA Tour who can't hit the
ball 20 yards.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Why you got to bring me up.
No, I believe neither of uslook like we're on the PGA Tour.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But we do.
We like image over obedienceand I think both these sons were
trying to present an image overtheir obedience?
Yes, you know.
And so what are some subtleways we do that, like we say
we'll do something but we neverdo?
What are some ways we do thatyou think in the church?
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Oh goodness, there are many ways Um sharing our
faith, tithing, um, you know,actually interacting with other
believers, building the familyUh, there's a plethora of things
that that we're in love with,the idea of that, that we seem
to never get around to doing aswe should.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Willing to do the work, huh.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
So, going back to this parable being warned about
the gospel, if we got right downto it, how does this parable
explain the gospel?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Well, the gospel is immediate, and I think it's
immediate because none of usknows how much time is on our
life clock, and so when you havethe opportunity to respond to
the Father, you need to do it,then in that moment.
(21:01):
Doing it later may be too late,and not doing it all is be too
late, and not doing it all iscertainly too late, and so I
think, if I'm understanding thisparable right, it's about being
obedient to the Father rightnow not later.
(21:23):
I've heard a lot of deathbedconfessions in my life and I
always think I just can't helpmyself but think, yeah, you got
lucky.
You know the good Lord let youdie slow.
And you realized I think that'sthe second son, you know.
You realized.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
But you're not guaranteed.
That's the danger.
Yeah, you know, if I could toend today, if I can bring it
back to the parenting thing, youknow we want our kids to have a
different heart and ultimately,either those sons, their heart
changed.
Right, you know, and right, wecome to christ when our heart
turns from ourselves to AlmightyGod and we have a heart change
and that's how we know thatChrist has come into our life
(22:13):
and redeemed us.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Absolutely.
One of my boys told me one timewhen he was a teenager.
He came to me and he said Dad,I'm tired of being a preacher's
kid.
And my response to him was well, let's talk about this Because
the standards of our home.
I've never raised my kids to bepreacher's kids.
I've never once said to thembecause I'm the pastor, you have
(22:36):
to go to church.
Because I'm the pastor, youcan't do this or that.
Never once.
I've been very conscious of that, because a pastor's kids
deserve to be raised as thechildren of their parents in
their home, not under themicroscope of a bunch of church
members.
And I said so.
Let's understand this thestandards we have for our home.
(23:00):
If I were a doctor or a ditchdigger or a plumber or whatever,
our standards would be the samebecause they're Christian
standards.
They have nothing to do withbeing a pastor.
So if I resign today and you'reno longer a pastor's son,
nothing in our home changes foryou.
(23:22):
And so I think the desire foryour children is for them to
understand they have to owntheir own relationship with the
Lord.
Just like they can't get intoheaven because their daddy's a
pastor, their relationship hasto be individual with him, it
(23:47):
can't be on their parents'coattails, and so if you can
find a way to help themunderstand that God has no
grandchildren, just children,then you've done a good thing
with your kids, a positive thing.
(24:08):
But I would also say that's oneof the hardest things to get
them to understand.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Also, yeah, absolutely yeah, all right.
Well, I think that's going towrap up today.
Talk about the two sons.
Next time we do a podcast,we're going to do something a
little different.
We're going to take a breakfrom deep talks about Scripture
and we thought it'd be fun totalk about some of the stories,
some of the things that havehappened over the years with
being First Baptist and beingcoming to church and just how
(24:36):
did we get to where we are today.
So I hope you guys will join usnext time.
Thanks again for listening.
Amen reminder for us to recall in today's divisive
and dark culture, Fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
All right.
Well, we're so glad you're backwith us for the Main Thing
podcast with Pastor Steve.
Pastor Steve, thanks for beinghere, absolutely.
As always you kind of have to behere because your name's on it.
So glad you're here.
But we're going to do a parabletoday.
That's really kind of one ofthose obscure parables.
Most people probably have readit and maybe just went right
(00:56):
over it.
Or you might read this parableand they'd be like that's not in
the Bible, but it is so beforewe get to the scripture in the
Bible, but it is so before weget to the Scripture.
I got a question for you.
Let's start here.
What matters more, our words orour actions?
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Oh, our actions absolutely.
Words only have value whenthey're backed up with action.
Otherwise they're meaningless.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Okay, so I want to go off on a little bit of a
tangent here, before we read thescripture.
I was thinking this morning asI was preparing for this between
me, you and Chet, we have 15kids, and I believe and correct
me if I'm wrong, but you havefive grandchildren, right?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
All right.
So thinking back to raisingyour boys and I'm thinking back
to raising my kids, what is oneof the hardest things about
raising kids, in your opinion?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Probably the hardest thing, and I think it's a dual
thing living your life beforethem, because they observe, they
see who you are, how you handlethings, how you respond.
So, living your life beforethem in a way that would be
honoring to Christ, and thennavigating the values that
(02:15):
you're trying to instill in them, while fighting the values
culture is trying to instill inthem, but you couldn't have
answered that any better.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
We didn't talk about this question beforehand.
But to segue into that, whenwe're trying to instill values
and we want them to live acertain way, I'd add to that
that what we're trying to do isdo a heart change.
Yes, you know, and one of thethings I've found as we do this
parenting journey is you know,we can sometimes make our kids
(02:45):
do the right thing or say theright thing because they fear a
punishment or whatever, but wecan't make a heart change.
And I think, really, what we'retalking about today is this
parent who desires a heartchange of his kids.
Yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So let me read our parable.
This is Matthew 21, 28 through32.
It would just be called the twosons.
Here's what it says.
Jesus tells the peoplelistening probably some
Pharisees there and he says whatdo you think?
A man had two sons.
He went to the first and saidso who's Jesus talking to here?
Speaker 4 (03:58):
to start off with this parable, Well, he's talking
to the chief priests andscribes, if you back up in that
chapter, so he's talking to thechief priests and scribes, if
you back up in that chapter, sohe's talking to the religious
leaders of the day, and, if Iunderstand it correctly, the
conversation's about obedience,doing what the Father responding
(04:20):
to him in obedience, what he'sasked you to do.
He's never complimentary of thereligious leadership in the New
Testament.
They seem to always be missingthe mark, and so, as best I can
understand this parable, it'sabout obedience and the first
(04:42):
son you would think is obedient,but he's actually not Delayed,
obedience is disobedience.
And then the second son is justblatantly disobedient.
So both of them are disobedient, and then he drives home the
point of you know, when you'reconfronted with the opportunity
(05:03):
to know Christ with the gospel,you respond.
Neither one of these two sonsresponded correctly to the
father's request, and so they'reboth disobedient.
In that sense, they both missedthe mark.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
So would you say, this is in fact a gospel parable
.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
I believe it is.
Yes, yeah, it's a little morevague than a lot of the parables
, but yeah, I think it's veryclearly about the gospel.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
You know, as I read it and we talk about the gospel,
I think one of the thingsthat's been good over the years
is the experience.
Probably you had the experienceI had growing up in church.
It seemed to me that what I wastaught growing up is that your
salvation consisted of yourwords.
(05:57):
In other words, you pray theright prayer and you're saved.
And this one turns that on itshead right.
It absolutely does, because theword's been nothing here.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
You know I get frustrated when our Calvinist
brothers say things like there'sno such thing as a sinner's
prayer.
Well, but if you go to Romans,we're told to accept Christ into
our heart and our mind.
And so how do you do that?
I have never taught a personthat you just pray this prayer
(06:30):
and magically you're saved.
I think that what we call thesinner's prayer is just a tool,
okay, and then I always explainnow, in doing this, you're
committing your life to Christ,You're believing these things,
You're buying in.
He now is your master, yourboss.
(06:53):
Man, I've never once in my life,I believe, tried to teach
anybody easy believism.
Okay, but we have been guiltyof that in churches as a whole,
of telling people just come downthe aisle, pray this prayer,
you're in, you've punched yourticket, don't worry about a
(07:15):
thing.
And I think we probably havemisled not us individually here,
I don't believe we've done that, but a lot of evangelical
churches, I believe, have misleda lot of people.
And they prayed the prayer andthey don't understand.
There's a commitment and achange, a miracle that has to
(07:37):
take place.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So if we look at these two brothers or these two
sons, the second one said he'sgoing to go.
Two brothers or these two sons,the second one said he's going
to go and he never did.
Okay, so there's no repentance,there's no obedience there.
What does that look like today?
I guess when you were justtalking about the gospel, we
pray to prayer is that kind ofthe same thing, you think?
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Well, I think with the second son, he's just clear
I'm not interested, I don't wantit.
And so I think the way itcorresponds to us today is there
are a lot of times you sharethe gospel with your child or a
family member and they justreject it.
(08:20):
He rejected the father is whathe did in this parable.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And so the first son.
Would this represent, though,somebody who did come to Christ?
Was there repentance there byhis actions?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
You know, it's hard to know for sure, but it appears
to me that he went begrudgingly.
Okay, I can't state that for afact, that's just my opinion,
but it appears he wentbegrudgingly.
He didn't want to go, he toldhim he'd go, and out of
obligation he went begrudgingly.
He didn't want to go, he toldhim he'd go, and out of
obligation he went.
And I think, especially in theSouth, we have a lot of people
(08:59):
that attend church because it'swhat you do in the South, it's
cultural.
Good people go to church and Ithink he might line up with that
crowd pretty well.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Well, if I go back to the parenting thing for a
second, it makes me think about.
You know, with my kids, there'ssuch a difference between
telling them to do something andthen eventually going off and
doing it, and then doing whatneeds to be done long before you
ever say a word.
You know, that's when parentingbecomes, uh, really enjoyable,
(09:34):
I guess.
Yes, you know, yes, um, and sowe're looking at both these sons
, and whether it was I'm notgoing to do it or I'm going to
tell you I'll do it, I'm not, orI'm going to do it, but I don't
want to, but would they bothmiss the mark there?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
they both miss the mark.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, would you say.
That would maybe as hypocrisysome of the hypocrisy we see in
the church today Could be.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
I believe the Christian life is lived properly
when it's lived in a joyful,willing response.
We're not hedging, and I thinkyou see the first son hedging
and the second son flatlyrejecting.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, so what does true repentance look like, then,
for somebody who not goinggrudgingly, not being obedient
even though they don't reallywant to, or just outright
rejecting?
What does true repentance looklike when you have we're
presented with the gospel?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I think 2 Corinthians 5.17 is a definition of true
repentance.
The old things have passed away.
Behold, all things have becomenew.
It is a transformation of one'smind and heart.
Your intentions change yourappetite changes your language
changes your hopes and dreams,change your purpose for living
(10:54):
changes.
When we say the old things havepassed away, it's indicative of
my old life.
Everything I was has beenreplaced by the transformation
of Christ in my life, and sowhat you see in this parable is
two individuals that have notbeen transformed.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, so you know, I always think it's helpful when
you're reading Scripture to tryto put yourself back in that
time, in that culture, andpicture what it would have been
like.
So I picture Jesus talking tothis group of Pharisees, group
of scribes, group of religiousprofessionals, and maybe over on
the side, or probably becausethey don't feel comfortable
being near Jesus.
(11:36):
You got all the people in thegutters of life the prostitutes,
the tax collectors, the onesthat are hated and I just
picture Jesus looking at thePharisees and saying, yeah, you
guys don't have a chance.
Y'all are nothing like theseones over here who were obedient
.
And if we could move that overto today's culture, I mean, what
does that look like?
(11:57):
Who are the ones do you think?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Jesus would be saying you didn't accept.
Sure, we have to remember whatthe New Testament, jesus in
particular, is teaching us isreligion is a crutch, and this
is what we have to remember.
All religion is man-made in aneffort to worship God, and the
(12:23):
Jews, in their man-made religionin an effort to worship God,
got it totally wrong, and theywere putting ball and chain
around people's ankles.
There was no joy, there was nofreedom, there was no
expectation of good life inworshiping God.
(12:45):
It was all restrictions andrules and everything you
couldn't do and what you had todo to please God.
And Jesus comes along and hesays you'll know the truth and
the truth will set you free Freefrom what Religion, and we're
just as guilty.
(13:05):
Today we want to hold up ourreligion as our banner, and our
banner is not our religion, it'sJesus, and so I think we're
still making the same mistakes.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
You know, the Pharisees had all their rules in
regard to the Ten Commandmentsand all that and they said you
had to follow.
What are some rules we do today?
Do you think you know what Imean?
I know we have our unwrittenrules in church that if you do
this, it means you really loveJesus.
If you do this, you're a goodChristian.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Well, it's what I said in the last podcast.
It's the old adage I grew upwith you don't drink, cuss, chew
or run with girls that do.
We've got all these littlethings that, in our mind, make
you a good Christian or not, andthey have nothing to do with
(14:00):
our relationship with Christ.
You know, our relationship withChrist provides freedom to live
life in joy.
It's not constricting, it'sexpansive, and every church I
know, this one included.
You've got all these people whohave in their image, an image
(14:21):
in their mind.
This is what a Christian is andunfortunately, most of the time
they're totally off the mark.
You know, a good Christian doesthese things, whatever they may
have in their head, and if youdo this, you can't be a good
(14:44):
Christian.
I'll give you an example.
I served on a college board someyears back and we had this one
board member who wanted to getthe president run off.
So he comes to a board meetingand the president of the college
and the head of the Englishdepartment the president was a
man, head of the Englishdepartment was a woman and they
had been at a conferencetogether and this board member
(15:07):
came in and said and we need toaddress this trip because she
wore fishnet stockings on thistrip, mm-hmm, and I was blown
away.
I'm sitting here thinking whatdoes that mean?
He was obviously implying thatshe dressed inappropriately,
(15:34):
some kind of sexual innuendo orwhatever, but in his mind he was
very genuine.
In his mind, a Christian womanthat would wear fishnet
stockings was not a goodChristian.
See, that's the kind of stuffthat we come up with in our
heads.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, the big topic nowadays is yoga pants.
You know, yeah well.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
I'd be the first to say somebody need to tell
someone you know.
But, yeah, I'll leave thatthere.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
You're going to get us in trouble on the podcast.
We're going to have some emailshere.
Yeah, all right.
Well, you know, jesus even madeup a word for the Pharisees.
Before Jesus, nobody used theword hypocrite, right, okay,
called the Pharisees hypocrite,being something they weren't.
Do we have that issue in thechurch today?
Speaker 4 (16:26):
We do in its truest sense of the word.
Hypocrite was a word that wasused in the theater.
You know, in ancient theaters,when they changed characters,
they would put a mask over theirface to become a different
person.
And that's where that wordcomes from, and it's the idea
(16:47):
that you're wearing a mask.
You're not who you really are,you're someone else.
And look in its simplest form,all of us are hypocrites to some
degree.
There are times that, maybeintentionally or not
intentionally, we're not who wereally are in a moment, in a
(17:10):
place in time, and so you knowwe need to take that to heart.
I think Christ died for us tobe who we are in him, to be
genuine in him, not to behypocrites in any way.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So I think that brings up another question why
do we value image over obedience?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
I don't really understand it.
I think it's human nature.
We want to see the best inpeople.
We want to see people doingwhat we think is appropriate and
right, and the problem withthat is when it comes to image.
We all have our own set ofrules and guidelines as to what
the proper image is.
You know, james was very clearfaith without works is dead, and
(17:55):
so image is useless unless it'sbacked up by an actual doing of
what that image is.
You know, one of my favoritebooks and I forget the title one
of Jimmy Carter's CIA agentsthat was assigned to him wrote a
(18:18):
book, as they always do, afterCarter was out of office, and he
tells the story of how Carteralways carried his own suitcase.
He wanted people to see himcarrying his own suitcase, but
what people didn't know is itwas always empty.
He never carried his ownsuitcase, he just carried one to
(18:39):
give the image to people thathe was a regular guy.
In essence, he was not.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
You know it's funny Every morning Kelly and I get up
and we make coffee and we havesome time before the kids wake
up to talk and all that.
But I remember a couple ofyears ago when we started doing
that Kelly would never drink hercoffee and so it ended up just
getting poured down the sink.
And I remember one time I askedher about it she says I think I
like the idea of coffee betterthan I actually like coffee.
(19:07):
And I think that's what we doas Christians.
A lot of us like the idea ofbeing a Christian way more than
we like actually being aChristian.
And we see that everywhere insociety.
We see the kids playingbaseball.
Who've got the.
They look like major leaguersdecked out and they probably
(19:27):
can't catch a ground ball.
I know me and you see this onthe golf course when we see some
guy look like he's coming offthe PGA Tour who can't hit the
ball 20 yards.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Why you got to bring me up.
No, I believe neither of uslook like we're on the PGA Tour.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But we do.
We like image over obedienceand I think both these sons were
trying to present an image overtheir obedience?
Yes, you know.
And so what are some subtleways we do that, like we say
we'll do something but we neverdo?
What are some ways we do thatyou think in the church?
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Oh goodness, there are many ways Um sharing our
faith, tithing, um, you know,actually interacting with other
believers, building the familyUh, there's a plethora of things
that that we're in love with,the idea of that, that we seem
to never get around to doing aswe should.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Willing to do the work, huh.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
So, going back to this parable being warned about
the gospel, if we got right downto it, how does this parable
explain the gospel?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Well, the gospel is immediate, and I think it's
immediate because none of usknows how much time is on our
life clock, and so when you havethe opportunity to respond to
the Father, you need to do it,then in that moment.
(21:01):
Doing it later may be too late,and not doing it all is be too
late, and not doing it all iscertainly too late, and so I
think, if I'm understanding thisparable right, it's about being
obedient to the Father rightnow not later.
(21:23):
I've heard a lot of deathbedconfessions in my life and I
always think I just can't helpmyself but think, yeah, you got
lucky.
You know the good Lord let youdie slow.
And you realized I think that'sthe second son, you know.
You realized.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
But you're not guaranteed.
That's the danger.
Yeah, you know, if I could toend today, if I can bring it
back to the parenting thing, youknow we want our kids to have a
different heart and ultimately,either those sons, their heart
changed.
Right, you know, and right, wecome to christ when our heart
turns from ourselves to AlmightyGod and we have a heart change
and that's how we know thatChrist has come into our life
(22:13):
and redeemed us.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Absolutely.
One of my boys told me one timewhen he was a teenager.
He came to me and he said Dad,I'm tired of being a preacher's
kid.
And my response to him was well, let's talk about this Because
the standards of our home.
I've never raised my kids to bepreacher's kids.
I've never once said to thembecause I'm the pastor, you have
(22:36):
to go to church.
Because I'm the pastor, youcan't do this or that.
Never once.
I've been very conscious of that, because a pastor's kids
deserve to be raised as thechildren of their parents in
their home, not under themicroscope of a bunch of church
members.
And I said so.
Let's understand this thestandards we have for our home.
(23:00):
If I were a doctor or a ditchdigger or a plumber or whatever,
our standards would be the samebecause they're Christian
standards.
They have nothing to do withbeing a pastor.
So if I resign today and you'reno longer a pastor's son,
nothing in our home changes foryou.
(23:22):
And so I think the desire foryour children is for them to
understand they have to owntheir own relationship with the
Lord.
Just like they can't get intoheaven because their daddy's a
pastor, their relationship hasto be individual with him, it
(23:47):
can't be on their parents'coattails, and so if you can
find a way to help themunderstand that God has no
grandchildren, just children,then you've done a good thing
with your kids, a positive thing.
(24:08):
But I would also say that's oneof the hardest things to get
them to understand.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Also, yeah, absolutely yeah, all right.
Well, I think that's going towrap up today.
Talk about the two sons.
Next time we do a podcast,we're going to do something a
little different.
We're going to take a breakfrom deep talks about Scripture
and we thought it'd be fun totalk about some of the stories,
some of the things that havehappened over the years with
being First Baptist and beingcoming to church and just how
(24:36):
did we get to where we are today.
So I hope you guys will join usnext time.
Thanks again for listening.
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