August 21, 2025 • 26 mins
Pastor Steve explores the parable of the wheat and weeds from Matthew 13:24-30, revealing crucial insights about God's kingdom and how we should respond to evil in our midst.
• Evil coexists with good because God gives everyone opportunity to choose Him and respond to His mercy
• Spiritual discipline in churches should be practiced with love, protecting both individuals and the congregation
• Christians should trust church leadership until given reason not to, rather than assuming the worst
• Satan always has representatives working within churches to cause division and destruction
• Until a person's final breath, opportunity for repentance remains - God desires all to come to Him
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Amen reminder for us to recall in today's divisive
and dark culture, Fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back to the Main Thing podcast with Pastor
Steve.
So glad you guys have joined ustoday as we look at another
parable in the book of Matthew,and so I'm going to go ahead and
get started by reading theparable of the wheat and the
weeds.
So let's take a look at thescripture.
It's Matthew 13, 24 through 30.
And it says he presentedanother parable to them the
kingdom of heaven may becompared to a man who sowed good
(00:56):
seed in his field, but whilepeople were sleeping, his enemy
came, sowed weeds among thewheat and left when the plants
sprouted and produced grain.
Then the and he said An enemydid this.
So do you want us to go andgather them up?
(01:18):
The slaves asked him.
No, he said when you gather upthe weeds, you might also uproot
the wheat with them.
Let both grow together untilthe harvest.
In a harvest time I'll tell thereapers gather the weeds first
and tie them in bundles to burnthem, but store the wheat in my
barn.
So as we get ready to discuss,let's welcome Pastor Steve back
to the Manly Thing podcast.
Pastor, thank you for beinghere today.
(01:39):
Absolutely as always, weappreciate you being with us.
So this parable, this, is oneof those that we don't probably
read a whole bunch about or hearmuch about in the Bible, but
it's obviously very important.
So just initial thoughts.
What's Jesus talking about inthis parable?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Oh wow.
I think he's talking about theoverall picture of the kingdom
of God of the kingdom of God.
As I understand it, the farmerdoing the planting represents
Christ, the field represents theworld, the wheat represents the
(02:17):
children of God and the weedsor the tares represent those
that are not the children of God.
Because we know, scriptureteaches you're either a friend
of God or you're an enemy of God, and so I think that's where
the word enemy comes in in thatpassage.
If you're not part of hisfamily, then you're an enemy to
(02:43):
his family and of course, theenemy would be Satan.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So is this parable?
Is he talking about, like, ifwe put it in a modern context,
is he talking about the localchurch or the church in general?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, yes, because the church is the children of
God.
You know, as we all know, it'snot a building.
It's the gathering of God'speople, the redeemed, those who
have been born again into thekingdom of God.
And so, yeah, I think it'sabsolutely talking about the
church.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So that brings up the question.
I think that's where I want tostart today why does God allow
evil to coexist with good for solong?
Not just, maybe people, butjust in general?
Why do we have evil and goodtogether in this world?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, I don't know that I have that answer.
Just to be honest with you,there are a lot of answers I can
give you, but there'sspeculation at best.
I am a John 3.16 guy in mytheology, so I believe that God
gives us the opportunity to makea choice, and so we each get to
(04:01):
choose if we want to be in thefamily of God or not in the
family of God.
And so the tares I think theweeds represent those who choose
not to be in the family of God.
And so you know.
We know that the Bible teachesus, the ruler of this world is
Satan, and so the weeds are thepeople in the family of Satan,
(04:27):
they're his people, and whilewe're here on planet Earth, we
have to deal with them.
For whatever reason God choosesto leave them here, and not
sure what that is, but we justhave to trust in his sovereignty
.
I think that it has a purpose.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
You talked about why God would leave them there.
Does that play into his mercyand judgment?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yes, it does.
In today's world we're big onmercy and grace, and that's good
we should be, but we stop shortof being big on judgment.
And we all have mercy and gracefor a period, and we respond to
that mercy and grace and becomeone of God's children, or we
(05:18):
don't.
And there comes a period oftime when God closes the curtain
on one's life and at that pointin time the opportunity for
mercy and grace is over.
It's now judgment.
And so what happens in thisparable?
I grew up on a small farm, soit's easy for me to understand.
(05:40):
Oftentimes what you don't seeis the roots will become
intertangled below the soil,they're growing close together,
and so you reach to pull thatweed and inadvertently you pull
the wheat stalk also.
And I think what God is sayinghere is it's not time for the
(06:02):
harvest yet, so we don't want todeal with that just yet, but
when the time comes we'll dealwith it then.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Look, you've been in pastoring for a long time.
We'll say that how do you dealwith these things?
We don't always know who it is,but we know there are people at
Covenant that have no desire tofollow Christ.
They have no relationship withChrist, Practically speaking.
(06:33):
How do we handle that?
You know you as a senior pastor, just as leaders in the church.
How do you handle that?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Well, you continue to teach Scripture faithfully.
Well, you continue to teachScripture faithfully and you
deal with situations as theyarise as biblically as you
possibly can, because church inAmerica is a public event.
Anybody can come.
You know, we don't reserve theright to throw people out.
(07:06):
And as long as we're doing that, we're going to deal with the
weeds.
And so you're very careful, youtry to be discerning.
You don't put the weeds inleadership positions.
You don't let them getinfluence in God's church,
influence in God's church, andwhen they try to head off in a
direction, as the pastor.
(07:30):
You got to try to hit that offand not let it go.
And sometimes you just have todo a hard thing and you just
have to pull it Now.
You'd rather he pull it, yeahyeah, but sometimes it becomes
it's evident that for the healthof the congregation you got to
(07:53):
do the best thing for thecongregation and you may have to
pull a weed once in a while.
I've only pulled a few in mylife, but I have pulled a few.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I've heard this multiple times over the years.
I know you have heard it many,many times over the years.
Somebody would say to you well,you're just being judgmental,
and that is just as bad as whatyou're saying.
I'm doing okay.
Where's the difference betweendiscernment and being judgmental
?
Or is there any time we delveinto that?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, well, first of all, when people say that they
have a misunderstanding ofbiblical judgment, people say
that they have amisunderstanding of biblical
judgment.
Biblical judgment in itssimplest form is when Christ
decides if you go into heaven orhell.
In an expanded form if I lookat a fellow Christian and
(08:46):
they're doing something that isclearly dishonoring to the Lord
and I call it to their attention, ideally my heart is right.
I'm not trying to judge him,because judgment would be me
deciding his eternal security.
I'm not doing that.
I'm simply trying to help thatbrother or sister come back into
(09:10):
the fold.
That's not judgment, that'scare.
And so oftentimes, when we'recaring for people, we're accused
of being judgmental, and soI'll say all the time look, I'm
not your judge, but pleaseunderstand, you do have one,
because people who say that kindof statement tend to think
(09:32):
nobody's their judge, but theydo have one.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So you know, one of the things that has largely gone
out of the Christian churchover the years is spiritual
discipline.
Yes, why do you think churcheshave moved away from that?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I can tell you why.
I'm very careful to exercise itand I have exercised it over
the years a few times, not many.
I like to think I've headed offa lot of situations that would
have ended up in a disciplinedscenario, but I was able to
(10:15):
coach or guide them to avoidthat.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Which is how the Bible puts it right in Matthew.
Right, right, I'm sorry, no, no.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I think that's just as important.
I think the old saying abulldog can whoop a skunk, but
it's just not worth the stink.
In today's church it tends tobe the situation where church
members who are not involved inthe situation will believe
(10:48):
anything in anybody other thantheir pastor.
He's automatically got to bethe bad guy.
He's automatically at fault.
Look what he did to so-and-soand see if you're discerning and
biblical as a pastor, as youshould be.
You're not going to run aroundbroadcasting.
Yeah, I had a meeting withso-and-so and this is what I had
(11:10):
to do.
Okay, because that's just not agodly behavior.
But so-and-so is going to goout of that meeting and they're
going to tell everybody that'lllisten how bad you've treated
them and you're automaticallyguilty.
So I honestly believe a lot ofpastors have avoided spiritual
(11:33):
discipline because, quitehonestly, it just becomes this
huge firestorm that you end upfighting.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
One of the things I've noticed here over the years
, because people have asked medo we even practice spiritual
discipline?
And I say we do, but we don'tbroadcast it unless it's
absolutely necessary.
And that would be true, yeah,but we don't broadcast it, right
, you know, unless it'sabsolutely necessary.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
And that would be true, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, and I think one of the big learning things I
had very early on when I washere this was, you know, over 20
years ago is there was asituation that had to be dealt
with early on and you and thepersonnel committee dealt with
it.
And then I remember you meetingwith a specific group of people
.
That would have been a part ofwhat was dealt with.
(12:15):
You explained what happened butyou didn't go into great detail
, right, and I remember you gavethe person needing to be
disciplined graciousness and adignity in that exit where you
could have thrown that personunder the bus to help everybody
understand the true situation,but you didn't.
(12:36):
And I remember that being veryinstructive for me back in the
day because I learned sometimeswhen you're in ministry, you've
got to take an unfair hit to bekind.
Yes, and I just remember thatone very vividly that it's hard.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It's hard and it's a fine line.
I firmly believe something Iwas taught as a young pastor as
a pastor, Jesus has to be yourdefender.
What does that mean?
It means that you get up and dothe right thing every day
because it's the right thing todo, and you could easily say the
biblical thing that's what Imean by the right thing every
day, because it's the rightthing to do, and you could
easily say the biblical thingthat's what I mean by the right
(13:15):
thing and you treat people theway you know God would have you
treat them.
And then you know you can layyour head on your pillow at
night and whatever they sayabout you, it really doesn't
matter because you know right.
Say about you it really doesn'tmatter because you know right.
(13:39):
And what tends to happen intime is the truth will win out.
Sometimes it's difficultbecause it doesn't win out right
away.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And you go through a season of being bashed and lied
about and defamed in yourreputation and your character
and you're sitting there bitingyour tongue in half, you know
and you really want to justscream.
Well, here's what you need toknow, but you can't Not if
(14:10):
you're going to be a person ofintegrity.
And also, I think you hit onsomething that's important,
brent.
When you do practice discipline, I think it has to be done with
the right heart and the rightmotives.
It has to be because you lovethis person and you want the
(14:32):
best for them.
But when you're a pastor,you're charged by God also to do
what's best for thecongregation and sometimes those
two intersect and you've got tochoose, and that's a very
difficult place.
I think I remember the oneyou're talking about.
(14:53):
Individual had some issues.
We met with the individual.
We put the individual and hiswife in counseling, paid for it,
sent them to another town sonobody would even know they were
in counseling, was very clearabout expectations and in a
matter of several months, samesituation happened again and
(15:20):
this individual already knew thedecision.
He was told this will be thedecision if we have this again,
if it doesn't change.
And so I took a beating, a hugebeating.
I had people literally hate mebecause of that situation.
(15:45):
But the man had a wife andprecious children young children
and I wasn't going out thereand embarrass his family and put
his wife and children throughthe mud because he was
struggling with some issues.
Because what does Galatians,chapter 6, teach us?
Be careful, because you can endup in that same place, right.
(16:08):
And so I really do try topractice the golden rule.
I'm sure I'm not perfect at it,but I really want to treat
anybody I got to deal with in adifficult situation the way I
hope I would be treated should Iend up in that place.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So for a Christian member of a church, somebody who
loves the Lord, trying to livethe right way, trying to be a
part of the church, okay, howshould this effect, this
particular parable, affect theway they would look at, say,
church leadership or the pastor?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, I think, and I think this is a fair statement,
I would say it's true in anyfaction of life business,
recreation, whatever You've gotto trust your leaders until they
give you a reason not to Mm-hmm.
And so I've had people come upto me true story, so-and-so told
(17:04):
me you did such-and-such, and Iwould look at them and say how
long have I been your pastor?
Oh, 15 years.
Okay, Do you?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
think.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I did that.
Oh no, no, well, you must.
You're asking me right have Idone anything in 15 years that
you've known me that will makeyou believe I would do that?
Well, no, then why are youasking me?
You know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I remember you saying years ago.
One of the things that's alwaysstuck with me is the pastor
never gets the benefit of thedoubt.
No no never.
We tend to gravitate toward.
If somebody said it, it must betrue.
So that's a hard place to be, Iwould imagine.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Look, I learned this from Daryl Robinson.
I was a senior in college.
I took a class in his office.
He wrote the book Total ChurchLife and at that time it was
just a notebook, it wasn't abook.
I still got the notebook and Iremember him telling us there
(18:11):
was only six of us in that classand he said listen to me,
always understand, satan'salways got his guy in church.
He's always there, and so ifyou're naive enough to believe
that he's not there, you'regoing to have some difficult
days, you know.
(18:31):
And we don't want to go there.
We don't want to consider thatwe may actually have a man or a
woman sitting out here.
That's actually evil, butthey're there.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that brings up a goodquestion I had written down here
.
Is it dangerous for us todecide if somebody's a weed and
not a wheat, or are there signswhere it makes it obvious?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
I think for me it's got to beobvious.
I'm not going to assume.
Now in my spirit and God gaveme a heavy dose of discernment I
tell people it's a blessing anda curse, okay, because you see
the good in people prettyquickly and you also see what's
(19:21):
not so good in people prettyquickly, and you also see what's
not so good in people prettyquickly.
And so I may in my spirit think, hmm, that Bubba's trouble.
But I'm not going to take theapproach that that Bubba's
trouble until he shows me histrouble, because my
discernment's not 100%.
(19:42):
I'm human.
I have missed it right,sometimes I either.
Look, we had a couple here.
Uh, he's been gone on be of thelord many years ago.
You'll remember.
Uh, kensa, kensa, joyceheston's husband what was was
his name Glenn Glenn.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Glenn, his son, is Ken.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I wanted to call him Ken, that's his son and he was
an older man, shaved head, bigold, thick coat, bottle glasses,
and it was because he had suchpure eyesight.
When he would look at you it'dbe like you know, like he's
trying to stare a hole throughyou, and when I first met him
and was around him a little bit,I thought that's got to be one
(20:24):
of the meanest old men on planetEarth.
And then as I got to know him Iwas totally wrong.
He was the sweetest spirit,kindest gentlest, you know.
But he even talked kind of meanin his tone.
You know he helped us withbenevolence a lot over the years
and he was just an old oilfield hand.
(20:46):
He was a little rough aroundthe edges.
He'd walk in and say what youneed, you know, and he didn't
mean it that way at all, butit's.
It's just his demeanor made youthink so you can be totally
wrong.
That's why I think you got tosee action right, yeah, yeah,
can be totally wrong.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
That's why I think you got to see action, right,
yeah, yeah.
Last question I want to ask, uh, with this one, what do we do
with people who don't realizetheir weeds?
Because I think that's a lot,that's, that's a lot of people
who are that you know, they may,they may think they have that
relationship and they don'tright or wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The way I've handled it over the years is I have a
meeting and I try to do the oldbeat around the bush be kind
conversation, hope they get it,and if they don't, then we have
a more pointed conversation andthen, somewhere along the line,
if it doesn't get any better, wehave a very direct conversation
(21:40):
.
You can probably think of one.
That was an example.
I remember sitting in thisindividual's living room when
this family came here and I saidto them because I knew he had
been the root cause of a churchsplit before he came over here
and I said look, if you feel theLord's leading you to our
(22:04):
church, you're welcome, butdon't bring that garbage over
here, leave it outside the door.
And he couldn't do that.
And probably my flaw but I'llstand on it is I sometimes let
things go too long and Iprobably, with this individual,
let things go way too long.
(22:24):
To the point I had deaconscoming to me asking me when are
you going to handle this guy?
And the day I finally decidedto handle it, I had a deacon
tell me if you don't dosomething about it, I am, it's
time.
So I realized I got to do this.
Didn't want to do it.
About it, I am, it's time, so Irealized I got to do this.
Didn't want to do it, becauseit's not fun.
(22:47):
It's not like if you enjoygiving out discipline,
something's wrong with you.
You don't need to be in aposition where you can have that
authority over people.
Right?
The ones who crave authoritydon't need to have in a position
where you can have thatauthority over people Right.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
The ones who crave authority don't need to have it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
No, no no, you know, that's my favorite.
That's my favorite saying theworst thing you can do is put a
person in charge when they can'twait to be in charge.
Because the old people used tocall them straw bosses, because
the old people used to call themstraw bosses.
They're a guy who has noauthority on the job site, but
(23:26):
he thinks he's everybody's boss,you know.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, you know.
Another way I heard that overthe years is if you have to tell
people you're the leader,you're not the leader.
Right, you know Right.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
The leadership follows the law, and that's true
in the pastor is anywhere Right?
Yeah, yes, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I want to finish up today just talking about 2 Peter
3.9.
You know, the Lord is not slackconcerning his promises, as
some would count slackness, buthis desire is that we should all
come to repentance.
You know, and I think that'sone of the reasons I would be,
like you, a John 3.16 person.
I think that verse is prettyclear.
He desires all that would cometo repentance and I think, when
(24:02):
we think about the weeds, that'sour goal, right.
We want everybody to come torepentance.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That's right.
That's right.
See, this is where I come downon it.
All of us, as we know Scripture, deserve death and hell, but
God showed us grace and mercy.
Deserve death and hell, but Godshowed us grace and mercy and
(24:29):
not just us, I believe, toeveryone he created.
Why would he create someone?
That he created them just forthe fun of sending them to hell?
Hell was not designed, in myunderstanding of scripture, as a
place for a group of people heprepared to go there, but a
group of people who preparethemselves to go there.
Hell is the opposite of theplace he prepared for his
(24:54):
children.
It's a separate place.
If you're not his child, youcan't go to his house.
And so, yeah, I think thatuntil a human being breathes
their last breath, there'salways opportunity.
And that's why, when youdiscipline people, you always
(25:15):
got to do it with the rightspirit and in love and hoping,
because oftentimes in discipline, they've gone off the rails
spiritually and you're hoping tobring them back into the fold
and, quite honestly, most of thetime you can't, because they're
(25:38):
embarrassed or they're mad oroffended that you would even
bring it up with them Becausethey don't believe.
I've noticed a person who'sliving in sin always has the
position it's nobody else'sbusiness.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
See so, yeah, yeah.
I want to finish with a quotefrom CS Lewis, probably one of
my favorite ones.
He said you know, at the end ofyour life you will have either
said to God, your will be done,or God will say to you, your
will be done.
Somebody's will is going tohappen, but are we going to let
God have his way with us?
yes any final thoughts?
(26:20):
No, I'm good.
Well, guys, as always.
We appreciate you joining us.
I hope this was helpful to you.
Uh, I know it was an enjoyableconversation for me, so we'll
see you guys next time.
Amen reminder for us to recall in today's divisive
and dark culture, Fromfoundational truths and
scripture to the hot topics oftoday's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back to the Main Thing podcast with Pastor
Steve.
So glad you guys have joined ustoday as we look at another
parable in the book of Matthew,and so I'm going to go ahead and
get started by reading theparable of the wheat and the
weeds.
So let's take a look at thescripture.
It's Matthew 13, 24 through 30.
And it says he presentedanother parable to them the
kingdom of heaven may becompared to a man who sowed good
(00:56):
seed in his field, but whilepeople were sleeping, his enemy
came, sowed weeds among thewheat and left when the plants
sprouted and produced grain.
Then the and he said An enemydid this.
So do you want us to go andgather them up?
(01:18):
The slaves asked him.
No, he said when you gather upthe weeds, you might also uproot
the wheat with them.
Let both grow together untilthe harvest.
In a harvest time I'll tell thereapers gather the weeds first
and tie them in bundles to burnthem, but store the wheat in my
barn.
So as we get ready to discuss,let's welcome Pastor Steve back
to the Manly Thing podcast.
Pastor, thank you for beinghere today.
(01:39):
Absolutely as always, weappreciate you being with us.
So this parable, this, is oneof those that we don't probably
read a whole bunch about or hearmuch about in the Bible, but
it's obviously very important.
So just initial thoughts.
What's Jesus talking about inthis parable?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Oh wow.
I think he's talking about theoverall picture of the kingdom
of God of the kingdom of God.
As I understand it, the farmerdoing the planting represents
Christ, the field represents theworld, the wheat represents the
(02:17):
children of God and the weedsor the tares represent those
that are not the children of God.
Because we know, scriptureteaches you're either a friend
of God or you're an enemy of God, and so I think that's where
the word enemy comes in in thatpassage.
If you're not part of hisfamily, then you're an enemy to
(02:43):
his family and of course, theenemy would be Satan.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So is this parable?
Is he talking about, like, ifwe put it in a modern context,
is he talking about the localchurch or the church in general?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, yes, because the church is the children of
God.
You know, as we all know, it'snot a building.
It's the gathering of God'speople, the redeemed, those who
have been born again into thekingdom of God.
And so, yeah, I think it'sabsolutely talking about the
church.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So that brings up the question.
I think that's where I want tostart today why does God allow
evil to coexist with good for solong?
Not just, maybe people, butjust in general?
Why do we have evil and goodtogether in this world?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, I don't know that I have that answer.
Just to be honest with you,there are a lot of answers I can
give you, but there'sspeculation at best.
I am a John 3.16 guy in mytheology, so I believe that God
gives us the opportunity to makea choice, and so we each get to
(04:01):
choose if we want to be in thefamily of God or not in the
family of God.
And so the tares I think theweeds represent those who choose
not to be in the family of God.
And so you know.
We know that the Bible teachesus, the ruler of this world is
Satan, and so the weeds are thepeople in the family of Satan,
(04:27):
they're his people, and whilewe're here on planet Earth, we
have to deal with them.
For whatever reason God choosesto leave them here, and not
sure what that is, but we justhave to trust in his sovereignty
.
I think that it has a purpose.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
You talked about why God would leave them there.
Does that play into his mercyand judgment?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yes, it does.
In today's world we're big onmercy and grace, and that's good
we should be, but we stop shortof being big on judgment.
And we all have mercy and gracefor a period, and we respond to
that mercy and grace and becomeone of God's children, or we
(05:18):
don't.
And there comes a period oftime when God closes the curtain
on one's life and at that pointin time the opportunity for
mercy and grace is over.
It's now judgment.
And so what happens in thisparable?
I grew up on a small farm, soit's easy for me to understand.
(05:40):
Oftentimes what you don't seeis the roots will become
intertangled below the soil,they're growing close together,
and so you reach to pull thatweed and inadvertently you pull
the wheat stalk also.
And I think what God is sayinghere is it's not time for the
(06:02):
harvest yet, so we don't want todeal with that just yet, but
when the time comes we'll dealwith it then.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Look, you've been in pastoring for a long time.
We'll say that how do you dealwith these things?
We don't always know who it is,but we know there are people at
Covenant that have no desire tofollow Christ.
They have no relationship withChrist, Practically speaking.
(06:33):
How do we handle that?
You know you as a senior pastor, just as leaders in the church.
How do you handle that?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Well, you continue to teach Scripture faithfully.
Well, you continue to teachScripture faithfully and you
deal with situations as theyarise as biblically as you
possibly can, because church inAmerica is a public event.
Anybody can come.
You know, we don't reserve theright to throw people out.
(07:06):
And as long as we're doing that, we're going to deal with the
weeds.
And so you're very careful, youtry to be discerning.
You don't put the weeds inleadership positions.
You don't let them getinfluence in God's church,
influence in God's church, andwhen they try to head off in a
direction, as the pastor.
(07:30):
You got to try to hit that offand not let it go.
And sometimes you just have todo a hard thing and you just
have to pull it Now.
You'd rather he pull it, yeahyeah, but sometimes it becomes
it's evident that for the healthof the congregation you got to
(07:53):
do the best thing for thecongregation and you may have to
pull a weed once in a while.
I've only pulled a few in mylife, but I have pulled a few.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I've heard this multiple times over the years.
I know you have heard it many,many times over the years.
Somebody would say to you well,you're just being judgmental,
and that is just as bad as whatyou're saying.
I'm doing okay.
Where's the difference betweendiscernment and being judgmental
?
Or is there any time we delveinto that?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, well, first of all, when people say that they
have a misunderstanding ofbiblical judgment, people say
that they have amisunderstanding of biblical
judgment.
Biblical judgment in itssimplest form is when Christ
decides if you go into heaven orhell.
In an expanded form if I lookat a fellow Christian and
(08:46):
they're doing something that isclearly dishonoring to the Lord
and I call it to their attention, ideally my heart is right.
I'm not trying to judge him,because judgment would be me
deciding his eternal security.
I'm not doing that.
I'm simply trying to help thatbrother or sister come back into
(09:10):
the fold.
That's not judgment, that'scare.
And so oftentimes, when we'recaring for people, we're accused
of being judgmental, and soI'll say all the time look, I'm
not your judge, but pleaseunderstand, you do have one,
because people who say that kindof statement tend to think
(09:32):
nobody's their judge, but theydo have one.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So you know, one of the things that has largely gone
out of the Christian churchover the years is spiritual
discipline.
Yes, why do you think churcheshave moved away from that?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I can tell you why.
I'm very careful to exercise itand I have exercised it over
the years a few times, not many.
I like to think I've headed offa lot of situations that would
have ended up in a disciplinedscenario, but I was able to
(10:15):
coach or guide them to avoidthat.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Which is how the Bible puts it right in Matthew.
Right, right, I'm sorry, no, no.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I think that's just as important.
I think the old saying abulldog can whoop a skunk, but
it's just not worth the stink.
In today's church it tends tobe the situation where church
members who are not involved inthe situation will believe
(10:48):
anything in anybody other thantheir pastor.
He's automatically got to bethe bad guy.
He's automatically at fault.
Look what he did to so-and-soand see if you're discerning and
biblical as a pastor, as youshould be.
You're not going to run aroundbroadcasting.
Yeah, I had a meeting withso-and-so and this is what I had
(11:10):
to do.
Okay, because that's just not agodly behavior.
But so-and-so is going to goout of that meeting and they're
going to tell everybody that'lllisten how bad you've treated
them and you're automaticallyguilty.
So I honestly believe a lot ofpastors have avoided spiritual
(11:33):
discipline because, quitehonestly, it just becomes this
huge firestorm that you end upfighting.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
One of the things I've noticed here over the years
, because people have asked medo we even practice spiritual
discipline?
And I say we do, but we don'tbroadcast it unless it's
absolutely necessary.
And that would be true, yeah,but we don't broadcast it, right
, you know, unless it'sabsolutely necessary.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
And that would be true, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, and I think one of the big learning things I
had very early on when I washere this was, you know, over 20
years ago is there was asituation that had to be dealt
with early on and you and thepersonnel committee dealt with
it.
And then I remember you meetingwith a specific group of people
.
That would have been a part ofwhat was dealt with.
(12:15):
You explained what happened butyou didn't go into great detail
, right, and I remember you gavethe person needing to be
disciplined graciousness and adignity in that exit where you
could have thrown that personunder the bus to help everybody
understand the true situation,but you didn't.
(12:36):
And I remember that being veryinstructive for me back in the
day because I learned sometimeswhen you're in ministry, you've
got to take an unfair hit to bekind.
Yes, and I just remember thatone very vividly that it's hard.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It's hard and it's a fine line.
I firmly believe something Iwas taught as a young pastor as
a pastor, Jesus has to be yourdefender.
What does that mean?
It means that you get up and dothe right thing every day
because it's the right thing todo, and you could easily say the
biblical thing that's what Imean by the right thing every
day, because it's the rightthing to do, and you could
easily say the biblical thingthat's what I mean by the right
(13:15):
thing and you treat people theway you know God would have you
treat them.
And then you know you can layyour head on your pillow at
night and whatever they sayabout you, it really doesn't
matter because you know right.
Say about you it really doesn'tmatter because you know right.
(13:39):
And what tends to happen intime is the truth will win out.
Sometimes it's difficultbecause it doesn't win out right
away.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And you go through a season of being bashed and lied
about and defamed in yourreputation and your character
and you're sitting there bitingyour tongue in half, you know
and you really want to justscream.
Well, here's what you need toknow, but you can't Not if
(14:10):
you're going to be a person ofintegrity.
And also, I think you hit onsomething that's important,
brent.
When you do practice discipline, I think it has to be done with
the right heart and the rightmotives.
It has to be because you lovethis person and you want the
(14:32):
best for them.
But when you're a pastor,you're charged by God also to do
what's best for thecongregation and sometimes those
two intersect and you've got tochoose, and that's a very
difficult place.
I think I remember the oneyou're talking about.
(14:53):
Individual had some issues.
We met with the individual.
We put the individual and hiswife in counseling, paid for it,
sent them to another town sonobody would even know they were
in counseling, was very clearabout expectations and in a
matter of several months, samesituation happened again and
(15:20):
this individual already knew thedecision.
He was told this will be thedecision if we have this again,
if it doesn't change.
And so I took a beating, a hugebeating.
I had people literally hate mebecause of that situation.
(15:45):
But the man had a wife andprecious children young children
and I wasn't going out thereand embarrass his family and put
his wife and children throughthe mud because he was
struggling with some issues.
Because what does Galatians,chapter 6, teach us?
Be careful, because you can endup in that same place, right.
(16:08):
And so I really do try topractice the golden rule.
I'm sure I'm not perfect at it,but I really want to treat
anybody I got to deal with in adifficult situation the way I
hope I would be treated should Iend up in that place.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So for a Christian member of a church, somebody who
loves the Lord, trying to livethe right way, trying to be a
part of the church, okay, howshould this effect, this
particular parable, affect theway they would look at, say,
church leadership or the pastor?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, I think, and I think this is a fair statement,
I would say it's true in anyfaction of life business,
recreation, whatever You've gotto trust your leaders until they
give you a reason not to Mm-hmm.
And so I've had people come upto me true story, so-and-so told
(17:04):
me you did such-and-such, and Iwould look at them and say how
long have I been your pastor?
Oh, 15 years.
Okay, Do you?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
think.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I did that.
Oh no, no, well, you must.
You're asking me right have Idone anything in 15 years that
you've known me that will makeyou believe I would do that?
Well, no, then why are youasking me?
You know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I remember you saying years ago.
One of the things that's alwaysstuck with me is the pastor
never gets the benefit of thedoubt.
No no never.
We tend to gravitate toward.
If somebody said it, it must betrue.
So that's a hard place to be, Iwould imagine.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Look, I learned this from Daryl Robinson.
I was a senior in college.
I took a class in his office.
He wrote the book Total ChurchLife and at that time it was
just a notebook, it wasn't abook.
I still got the notebook and Iremember him telling us there
(18:11):
was only six of us in that classand he said listen to me,
always understand, satan'salways got his guy in church.
He's always there, and so ifyou're naive enough to believe
that he's not there, you'regoing to have some difficult
days, you know.
(18:31):
And we don't want to go there.
We don't want to consider thatwe may actually have a man or a
woman sitting out here.
That's actually evil, butthey're there.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that brings up a goodquestion I had written down here
.
Is it dangerous for us todecide if somebody's a weed and
not a wheat, or are there signswhere it makes it obvious?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
I think for me it's got to beobvious.
I'm not going to assume.
Now in my spirit and God gaveme a heavy dose of discernment I
tell people it's a blessing anda curse, okay, because you see
the good in people prettyquickly and you also see what's
(19:21):
not so good in people prettyquickly, and you also see what's
not so good in people prettyquickly.
And so I may in my spirit think, hmm, that Bubba's trouble.
But I'm not going to take theapproach that that Bubba's
trouble until he shows me histrouble, because my
discernment's not 100%.
(19:42):
I'm human.
I have missed it right,sometimes I either.
Look, we had a couple here.
Uh, he's been gone on be of thelord many years ago.
You'll remember.
Uh, kensa, kensa, joyceheston's husband what was was
his name Glenn Glenn.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Glenn, his son, is Ken.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I wanted to call him Ken, that's his son and he was
an older man, shaved head, bigold, thick coat, bottle glasses,
and it was because he had suchpure eyesight.
When he would look at you it'dbe like you know, like he's
trying to stare a hole throughyou, and when I first met him
and was around him a little bit,I thought that's got to be one
(20:24):
of the meanest old men on planetEarth.
And then as I got to know him Iwas totally wrong.
He was the sweetest spirit,kindest gentlest, you know.
But he even talked kind of meanin his tone.
You know he helped us withbenevolence a lot over the years
and he was just an old oilfield hand.
(20:46):
He was a little rough aroundthe edges.
He'd walk in and say what youneed, you know, and he didn't
mean it that way at all, butit's.
It's just his demeanor made youthink so you can be totally
wrong.
That's why I think you got tosee action right, yeah, yeah,
can be totally wrong.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
That's why I think you got to see action, right,
yeah, yeah.
Last question I want to ask, uh, with this one, what do we do
with people who don't realizetheir weeds?
Because I think that's a lot,that's, that's a lot of people
who are that you know, they may,they may think they have that
relationship and they don'tright or wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The way I've handled it over the years is I have a
meeting and I try to do the oldbeat around the bush be kind
conversation, hope they get it,and if they don't, then we have
a more pointed conversation andthen, somewhere along the line,
if it doesn't get any better, wehave a very direct conversation
(21:40):
.
You can probably think of one.
That was an example.
I remember sitting in thisindividual's living room when
this family came here and I saidto them because I knew he had
been the root cause of a churchsplit before he came over here
and I said look, if you feel theLord's leading you to our
(22:04):
church, you're welcome, butdon't bring that garbage over
here, leave it outside the door.
And he couldn't do that.
And probably my flaw but I'llstand on it is I sometimes let
things go too long and Iprobably, with this individual,
let things go way too long.
(22:24):
To the point I had deaconscoming to me asking me when are
you going to handle this guy?
And the day I finally decidedto handle it, I had a deacon
tell me if you don't dosomething about it, I am, it's
time.
So I realized I got to do this.
Didn't want to do it.
About it, I am, it's time, so Irealized I got to do this.
Didn't want to do it, becauseit's not fun.
(22:47):
It's not like if you enjoygiving out discipline,
something's wrong with you.
You don't need to be in aposition where you can have that
authority over people.
Right?
The ones who crave authoritydon't need to have in a position
where you can have thatauthority over people Right.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
The ones who crave authority don't need to have it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
No, no no, you know, that's my favorite.
That's my favorite saying theworst thing you can do is put a
person in charge when they can'twait to be in charge.
Because the old people used tocall them straw bosses, because
the old people used to call themstraw bosses.
They're a guy who has noauthority on the job site, but
(23:26):
he thinks he's everybody's boss,you know.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, you know.
Another way I heard that overthe years is if you have to tell
people you're the leader,you're not the leader.
Right, you know Right.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
The leadership follows the law, and that's true
in the pastor is anywhere Right?
Yeah, yes, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I want to finish up today just talking about 2 Peter
3.9.
You know, the Lord is not slackconcerning his promises, as
some would count slackness, buthis desire is that we should all
come to repentance.
You know, and I think that'sone of the reasons I would be,
like you, a John 3.16 person.
I think that verse is prettyclear.
He desires all that would cometo repentance and I think, when
(24:02):
we think about the weeds, that'sour goal, right.
We want everybody to come torepentance.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That's right.
That's right.
See, this is where I come downon it.
All of us, as we know Scripture, deserve death and hell, but
God showed us grace and mercy.
Deserve death and hell, but Godshowed us grace and mercy and
(24:29):
not just us, I believe, toeveryone he created.
Why would he create someone?
That he created them just forthe fun of sending them to hell?
Hell was not designed, in myunderstanding of scripture, as a
place for a group of people heprepared to go there, but a
group of people who preparethemselves to go there.
Hell is the opposite of theplace he prepared for his
(24:54):
children.
It's a separate place.
If you're not his child, youcan't go to his house.
And so, yeah, I think thatuntil a human being breathes
their last breath, there'salways opportunity.
And that's why, when youdiscipline people, you always
(25:15):
got to do it with the rightspirit and in love and hoping,
because oftentimes in discipline, they've gone off the rails
spiritually and you're hoping tobring them back into the fold
and, quite honestly, most of thetime you can't, because they're
(25:38):
embarrassed or they're mad oroffended that you would even
bring it up with them Becausethey don't believe.
I've noticed a person who'sliving in sin always has the
position it's nobody else'sbusiness.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
See so, yeah, yeah.
I want to finish with a quotefrom CS Lewis, probably one of
my favorite ones.
He said you know, at the end ofyour life you will have either
said to God, your will be done,or God will say to you, your
will be done.
Somebody's will is going tohappen, but are we going to let
God have his way with us?
yes any final thoughts?
(26:20):
No, I'm good.
Well, guys, as always.
We appreciate you joining us.
I hope this was helpful to you.
Uh, I know it was an enjoyableconversation for me, so we'll
see you guys next time.
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