September 4, 2025 • 30 mins
In this eye-opening exploration of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we discover profound truths about wealth, eternity, and our urgent responsibility to share the gospel with others.
• The rich man's blindness continued even in torment, showing how deeply ingrained our worldly mindsets can be
• Less than 2% of Christians ever share their faith with another human being
• You don't need theological training to share your faith - simply tell your story of transformation
• Start by sharing with those closest to you - your family and friends - for the most effective impact
Remember, a divine intervention happens when a willing witness crosses paths with a seeking soul. Are you a willing witness today?
Covenant Church Houma
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thank you for us to recall, in today's divisive and
dark culture, from foundationaltruths and scripture to the hot
topics of today's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Well, good morning, pastor.
Steve, good morning, glad tohave you again.
Great to be here.
I think we're in the mid-20snow, so we're moving right along
(00:41):
, yes, and it's a blessing to behere.
So we're going to be in Luke,chapter 16, verses 19 through 31
, talking about the rich man andLazarus.
I'm going to go ahead and readthe scripture and then we'll
dive right in All right.
So Luke 16, 19 through 31.
Now there was a rich man and hehabitually dressed in purple
and fine linen, joyously livingin splendor every day, and a
(01:04):
poor man named Lazarus was laidat his gate, covered with sores
and longing to be fed with thecrumbs which were falling from
the rich man's table.
Besides, even the dogs werecoming and licking his sores.
Now the poor man died and wascarried away by the angels to
Abraham's bosom, and the richman also died and was buried In
Hades.
He lifted up his eyes, being intorment, and saw Abraham far
(01:26):
away and Lazarus in his bosom,and he cried out and said Father
Abraham, have mercy on me andsend Lazarus so that he may dip
the tip of his finger in waterand cool off my tongue, for I am
in agony in this flame.
But Abraham said Child,remember that during your life
you received your good thingsand likewise Lazarus, bad things
.
But now he is being comfortedhere and you are in agony.
(01:49):
And besides all this, betweenus and you there is a great
chasm fixed so that those whowish to come over from here to
you will not be able and thatnone may cross over from there
to us.
And he said Then I beg you,father, that you send him to my
father's house for I have fivebrothers in order that he may
warn them so that they will notalso come to this place of
(02:12):
torment.
But Abraham said they have Mosesand the prophets, let them hear
them.
But he said no, father Abraham,but if someone goes to them
from the dead, they will repent.
But he said to him, if they donot listen to Moses and the
prophets, they will repent.
But he said to him, if they donot listen to Moses and the
prophets, they will not bepersuaded, even if someone rises
from the dead.
So, pastor Steve, just glossingover this and we'll dig in a
(02:35):
little deeper, but how can werelate to both the rich man and
the poor man in this parable, inthis story that Jesus told?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, the parable is, I think, intended to motivate
us to share the gospel.
Gospel, literally from theGreek word, euangelion means
good news.
What is the good news?
That there is deliverance fromthe bad news Right, that there's
deliverance from the bad newsRight.
(03:07):
And so the good news is one canhave a relationship with holy
God, with all of the benefitsthat come with that.
Or if they reject thatrelationship, there are
consequences that come with that.
And so we relate to the rich manin that in America we live in a
very materialistic society.
(03:27):
We're blessed, and I believe Iunderstand this teaching in that
it wasn't because he was richhe had a problem.
It was because rich had him, helived the life that was his
world, he trusted his money, itwas his everything, if you will.
(03:49):
And then we identify withLazarus, I think, because it has
been said well that evangelismis just one beggar telling
another beggar where to findbread, were to find bread.
And the really cool thing aboutthis parable was in the first
century, whenever they wouldhave banquets, they didn't have
(04:12):
fine linens like we do now.
That wasn't a thing.
So when they got through eating, oftentimes they would take a
piece of bread and clean theirhands and throw it to the dogs,
and so that's the picture youget with Lazarus.
He's dependent on these richpeople, the table of the rich
(04:33):
man, just to barely survive.
He's destitute, he's homeless.
Beggars were people, normally,who had no other means, and
beggars were people normally whohad no other means, no family,
no help, so they were reduced tobegging, and so the imagery
there is that we are all, in oursimplest form, beggars before
(04:56):
holy God.
Yes, and so I think that's howwe can identify with both of
them.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Right and you hit the nail on the head.
I mean, this is definitelyabout urgent evangelism and I
think one of the things thatI've experienced in ministry is
that you know we've donedifferent initiatives where we
go to different neighborhoodsand try to reach the
neighborhood, where we go todifferent neighborhoods and try
to reach the neighborhood.
And the way you reach anaffluent neighborhood is a much
(05:29):
different method than the wayyou reach, say, someone on the
street or at a hotel or whatever.
And I think the reason that isis because, exactly what you
said you become so comfortablein your wealth and what you have
that it becomes who you are,and so you almost have to fit
that mold in order to reachthose people.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That's right.
Well, and here's what happens,and it still happens today.
In our culture, money is a toolto provide whatever your
heart's desire.
If you have enough money, youcan do anything you want.
Right Right, but in itssimplest form it provides for us
the basic needs to live.
(06:07):
But the more money we have, themore it becomes the most
important thing to us.
We tend to trust in it ratherthan holy God.
We tend to think our money cansolve every problem, that it'll
be there to take care of us inevery way, and that's the flaw
(06:30):
in the thinking.
We should see it as a tool, notas our protector.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right, you know I've met just a very few.
I'm sure you've met more thanme, but I've met a few people
who have a lot of money butthey're able to disconnect
themselves to its pool and Ifind that fascinating, because
that is a hard thing to do.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Incredibly hard.
I mean, we're human, right, weall like nice things, we all
want to take nice trips, we allwant great experiences, we all
want to take nice trips, we allwant great experiences.
And so the test there are a lotof critics of Rick Warren.
Okay, rick Warren made over $20million on one of his books,
(07:18):
purpose Driven Life.
Okay, he donated every dime ofthat $20 million to AIDS
ministries in Africa.
So one of the tests of successis where you reach a point where
(07:42):
you're happy and you now wantto make a difference with what
you have.
So you know, people can be ascritical of Rick Warren as they
want, but he stood the testRight you know, yeah, yeah, amen
.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So how does this parable challenge prosperity
theology?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Oh, my goodness.
You know it's hard for me tounderstand how you can get
prosperity theology and havethis parable in the same Bible.
You got to understand.
The Jews practice prosperitytheology.
It's not just the health andwealth guys.
In 2025 in America.
(08:22):
They believed that wealth was adirect blessing from God, and
so it is a direct challenge toJewish theology.
You know, and Jesus is taughtseveral times throughout the New
Testament you can have yourreward here or in heaven.
(08:43):
And the rich man, because heembraced his wealth, because he
was greedy with his wealth, hehad his reward on planet Earth.
That's all he was going to get.
And so I think and I try totell our people from time to
(09:04):
time here in our churchChristians ought to be generous.
Nothing wrong with havingwealth.
Right.
There's nothing sinful abouthaving wealth.
It's when the wealth has youthat you're in trouble.
And this man, truly, the wealthhad him.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Right.
And like you always say, youdon't have to be rich to be
generous, you have to begenerous to be generous.
That's right, no matter withwhat you have, you know and
people get mad when I say this.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Some of the most economically humble people I
know are some of the mostselfish, because their battle
cry is I can't afford that, Idon't make that much money, I
can't possibly give to that.
And it becomes their defaultanswer to everything and they
(09:54):
never once consider, you know,to that person giving $10 may be
a sacrifice, but God calls usto give sacrificially Right, and
so they're not exempt from thatbecause in their mind, they're
more poor than someone else.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And I find it interesting how many people
today, in 2025, still getswooped up in that theology,
even though the crux of thattheology is simple it's if you
have enough faith and if youtrust God enough, he will
provide an abundant blessing,and what you seed in you'll
(10:36):
fruit out.
Whereas, hey, if you pay thechurch or pay me as a ministry
$50, god will give you $100.
And it just amazes me how manypeople still believe this to be
true 100% of the time.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Here's the danger of that.
You know the old thing the bestjokes have a little bit of
truth in them.
Well, the best heresies have alittle bit of truth in them.
We are taught in Scripture thatwe reap what we sow right.
So, God, I believe Scriptureteaches, honors our obedience,
(11:11):
and he may very well bless youin financial ways.
But I firmly believe, if you'replanting a seed, so to speak,
just with your heart's intent,that I'm going to get more back,
I think you totallymisunderstand the teaching
that's right.
Scripture, as I understand it,teaches that we are not obedient
(11:37):
in order to please God or toget good results.
Obedience is produced becauseof our salvation and you are
obedient because that's who youare, as a child of God, and
whatever comes out of thatobedience is irrelevant, that's
(11:58):
God's business.
You don't plant the seedlooking to get something in
return.
You plant the seed becausethat's what God put you here to
do, right See?
And I think this is where weget off track with that thing.
I often tell people same thing.
I've seen it all my life inchurch talking to somebody and
(12:23):
they tithe, but they're nothappy about it, they feel
obligated, and I tell them youmight as well keep it.
Right.
Because Scripture's clear Ifyou're not giving with a
cheerful heart, god's not goingto bless that.
But they have this guiltreligious rules guilt that if
(12:44):
they don't do it, god's going toget them.
I've had them say things likewell, if I don't tithe, god will
get it one way or the other, mycar will break down, my water
heater will go out.
Well, that's the exact oppositeof saying if I plant this money
, I'm going to get a financialreward.
Right, see exact opposite ofsaying if I plant this money,
(13:04):
I'm going to get a financialreward, right See.
So we have to be obedient withour finances out of the natural
desire of our heart and notworry about what the return is.
That's the biblical teaching.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Right, right, I was reminded speaking about the
prosperity.
I want to hear your thoughts onthis, this prosperity theology.
I had to read a book a couplesemesters ago for school and it
was all about the start of thistheology and there was a very
prominent prosperity ministry.
I want to say it was in the 60sor the 50s, early 50s, and this
(13:43):
lady brought her child, who hadsevere diabetes, to the church
and she was on the verge ofgoing to the doctor, getting
medication and all this and thepastor in the church was like,
no, you just have to have faith.
Well, long story short, theyprayed over the child, she
prayed over the child.
Child ended up dying and couldhave been prevented from death
had she gone to the doctor andgot the medication.
(14:05):
That's an extreme example, butit's an example nonetheless of
the dangers of believing thisway.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, I'm a strong believer in the power of God and
His power to heal.
But I also am a strong believerthat when we say he provides
for us, that includes scienceand medicine and anything else
that's available to us.
It's not a lack of faith to goto the doctor.
(14:36):
You can absolutely still trustand believe that God would heal,
and he may very well do that,but that is in his purview.
Yeah.
You know, and this idea andhere's our problem Scripture
actually says that you got tobelieve.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
(14:57):
So I think you're probably notgoing to receive a healing if
you don't believe.
But this idea gets, I think,complicated when people want to
ignore the obvious blessings Godhas given us in science and
(15:18):
medical doctors.
I believe God can do anythinghe wants to do and he doesn't
need my permission to do it.
Right, I still go to the doctor.
I believe God has gifted uswith these disciplines of
knowledge to help us.
(15:38):
And so, even though I'm goingto the doctor, that doesn't
prevent me from praying that Godwould change the situation.
And I've seen it where he hasand I've seen it where he didn't
.
That's all in God's wisdom andwe'll never understand that this
(15:59):
side of heaven, that's hisbusiness.
We'll never understand thatthis side of heaven.
That's his business, and so Ithink you can get on dangerous
ground you got to be carefulRight In this parable.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I mean, the rich man is blind, even in torment, and
still doesn't realize.
Do you think that's what peoplewho go to hell will still be
blind?
Or will they see the truth andagonize over the fact that they
did reject the truth?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I think that's part of hell, just my opinion.
I think part of hell is thatyou realize what you chose not
to accept, because he startspraying to Father Abraham hey,
send somebody to my family.
I don't want them to have tocome down here where I'm at.
And, as we all know, once youtake your last breath on planet
(16:53):
Earth, the gospel is clear thatopportunity for that door is
closed.
Right.
And so it is an urging for us toshare the gospel.
I don't know how many timesI've seen it.
Somebody comes to me.
Would you come tell my daddyabout Jesus?
Would you come tell my brotherabout Jesus?
Why don't you tell them?
(17:14):
About.
Jesus the average Christian.
We know they've done studies onit.
Less than 2% of the Christiancommunity ever share their faith
with another human being 2%right, and so I think there's
going to be a whole lot ofpeople that'll end up in hell,
(17:37):
and the cry may very well be whydidn't my brother tell me?
Why didn't my kids tell me?
So again, I can't prove thatone way or the other, but I
believe part of being in hell isthe realization of what you
rejected.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's a weighty thing to think about.
It is, it seems we have so manypeople and just being in
ministry, there are people thatcome to church that don't really
walk out their faith.
That's normal everywhere.
But there are also many peoplewho are serious about their
faith and still don't share thegospel because I think they fall
(18:16):
captive to the lie of Satanthat they can't and they don't
know how, when really it's verysimple Just share what Jesus has
done for you and invite them tohave the same experience.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
A gospel presentation is simple.
This is who I was before Jesus.
This is what happened when Icame to Jesus and committed my
life to him.
This is who I am now.
The first person I ever sharedthe gospel with accepted Christ,
committed his life to him andwe were baptized together.
(18:51):
That's awesome.
I got saved on a Sunday and Ishared the gospel with him on
Monday afternoon and the nextSunday we were baptized together
.
I didn't even know John 3.16.
Yeah.
So it is a huge lie of Satan.
People feel like they got tohave a Bible degree or they have
to be some kind of scholar.
(19:12):
Right, you cannot argue with achanged life, you just can't.
Right?
I mean you can, but I don'tthink it gets any traction.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I didn't know that about you.
That's kind of similar to mystory.
Whenever I started going to theold church, I accepted Christ,
got baptized in March, sharedthe gospel with my coworker
Again, I didn't know any of thescripture, but I just shared
what Jesus did and he gotbaptized in June at the church.
Yeah, but Jesus did and he gotbaptized in.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
June at the church.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, and I just yeah .
I mean, whenever you're changed, you want to share it.
You want to share?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So let's talk about at the end of the parable it's
clear to a person who won'tbelieve, if they don't believe
the prophets or Moses, they'redefinitely not going to believe
resurrection, this idea of nomatter what miracle you see and
still not believe in the truth.
At what point do we come to aconclusion as believers that we
(20:12):
know the Scripture says God hasto draw the heart, but we also
know we have free agency, wehave free will.
So talk about the tension ofthat a little bit, because it's
clear here that it's like, hey,if they don't believe Moses or
the prophets, they're not goingto believe the resurrection,
even if they see someone risefrom the dead.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
My take on this particular parable is it really
creates a problem for thefive-point Calvinist.
Why would we have this parablewhere the man was given the
opportunity to make a decisionfor Christ and chose not to?
He could have chose to acceptChrist, commit his life to
(20:56):
Christ, but he didn't right.
And so the reality of thisthing is, I believe firmly as
you say every human being ispresented with the opportunity.
We call it the conviction ofthe Holy Spirit.
God's nudging is I think that'swhat we call being drawn Right
(21:18):
the nudging of the Holy Spiritto respond to a holy God.
And what keeps many people fromthat, in my humble opinion, is
the desire to be their own God,the desire to be totally in
charge of their own life.
They cannot fathom the idea ofcommitting themselves to this
(21:40):
God who's then going to dictatewho they are and how they should
live.
They're just not quite able todo that.
So this guy you know, you havethe rich young ruler who comes
to Jesus At night and Jesus sayshe wants to know how to be
saved.
And Jesus says go, selleverything you got and give it
(22:03):
to the poor.
And he can't do it.
He was given an opportunity, achoice Can't do it, you know.
And the Scripture says he wentaway sad and I think the reason
he goes away sad is he wouldmake a great modern-day
Christian.
We all want the best of thisworld and we don't want to have
to give it up to have the bestof the world after this, that's
(22:27):
good yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, that's a good word.
I think about that when yousaid he would make a good
modern-day Christian.
Whenever I'm counseling someoneor talking to someone trying to
explain the gospel to them, atall times the root of the
(22:50):
barrier has to do with a grip onsomething here.
Yes, so that's a goodrealization there.
I never actually saw thatperspective before.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Think about what we often say.
Somebody say how are you doingtoday?
And the response is I woke upthis morning, I'm doing great.
Now, as believers, shouldn'tour response be more like well
darn it, I'm still here.
Jesus hasn't taken me home yet.
If we really believe in heavenand all that it's supposed to be
.
But we are so connected to thisworld we're going to talk about
(23:24):
this Sunday being aliens inthis world.
We should be a littleuncomfortable here in our skin.
And I'm not saying have a deathwish, but what I'm saying is
there should be a yearning, adesire for the promises that we
(23:46):
have in Christ, but we tend notto do that.
We tend not to do that.
Another interesting thing manyyears ago there was a study done
on the percentage of people inour society that believe in
heaven, and the interestingthing was they found out that
almost everyone who believes inheaven believes they're going to
(24:09):
heaven.
And I find that veryinteresting because just because
you believe in heaven doesn'tmean you're going to heaven.
As we know, Scripture teachesyou got to believe Jesus is the
Messiah and commit your life tohim.
Just the belief there's aheaven won't get you there, but
(24:31):
much of our society believesthat and it's played out in this
phrase.
You often hear I'm a goodperson.
I think another one of Satan'slies I'm a good person, so
surely I'm going to heaven.
Right, that's just not whatscripture teaches us is the
(24:52):
criteria for heaven.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
That's right.
How do you say it?
I don't slap my mama, I don'tspit or chew.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Oh, don't drink, cuss , chew or run with girls that do
yeah, yeah.
So I'm a good old boy, I'm agood old boy, don't kick my dog,
don't cheat on my taxes.
Surely I'm going to heaven,right, yeah, yeah.
The problem is none of thosethings have anything to do with
heaven.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Correct.
Yeah, yeah.
So last point is urgentevangelism.
We don't know the day, the timeor the hour.
Why is it, Steve, that?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
it's difficult for people to understand the
importance of sharing theirfaith Well, in its simplest form
, if there are people around youthat you love and care about
and you're a believer in theLord Jesus Christ, meaning that
you really believe he's who hesays he is and he's going to do
what he says he's going to do.
You know there's a reckoningday where he'll separate the
(26:01):
wheat and the chaff, and yourealize that's a reality.
And not only do you want to bewith the wheat in heaven, you
want to take those you love themost with you, and so there
should be a care and a concernfor those you love that would
(26:22):
make you want to share with them.
My own mother I've told thisstory who had been turned off by
the church, who had been turnedoff by the church and you know
it's easy for that to happen,because the church is made up of
humans.
(26:43):
Humans do dumb things, andhumans are oftentimes hypocrites
and what they say and dodoesn't line up.
And so my mother was verycritical of the church, and I
had shared the gospel with herthree or four times over the
years.
She always rejected it, butthen she was in the hospital in
(27:05):
intensive care, and I drove hometo visit with her and I asked
her how she was doing.
She said fine, told the doctor,I'm ready to go.
If this is it, don't worryabout me.
And my natural response wasokay, who helped you do this?
And her answer was a blessingand it was comical.
(27:29):
She said nobody.
You told me enough times how todo it.
She said nobody, you told meenough times how to do it.
And so you know, I had resolvedin my heart, after I've been in
ministry many years, thatneither my mom or dad would ever
come to Christ.
Both of them came to Christjust a few years before they
passed.
(27:49):
It took that long, right?
So you never give up on yourloved ones.
You always stay consistent,share the gospel because you
care about them.
The other thing is and westruggle with this as ministers
you got to live with a purposeand I fight this all the time.
(28:13):
We get caught up doing themundane here in church life.
You know we're meeting withpeople about something all the
time.
We're dealing with this, we'reputting out a fire, we're.
You know it's something to doall day long.
You get to the end of the dayand you've done stuff all day,
but you don't feel like you'veaccomplished anything for the
kingdom Right.
(28:33):
And you've done stuff all day,but you don't feel like you've
accomplished anything for thekingdom right.
And so, in order to share thegospel, you've got to get up in
the morning and determine thatyou're going to look for an
opportunity.
Right, you know we call it adivine intervention when a
willing witness crosses pathswith a seeking soul.
Right, but if you're not awilling witness, those seeking
(28:56):
souls will come around you allday long.
Yeah.
And they'll never hear thegospel.
Right.
So I think our biggestchallenge, even as ministers, is
that we've got to do a betterjob of living our faith with
purpose, looking to share it.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Right, yeah, and I think some people think, and
they tell me this, and God hascalled me to do a specific type
of evangelism, but he has notcalled everyone to do that type
Right?
And I think what's importantfor people to realize is that
just think about your family andyour close friends and then
(29:39):
think about the whole church,their family and their close
friends.
That's a lot of people.
So if we would just reach theones that are close to us which
I believe is the most effectiveevangelism anyway, absolutely
Then that multiplication effectis astronomical.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
It is, it is, it is.
And if you look at the averagechurch, you can see that Our
church is larger, so it's alittle harder to see, but it's
here.
You're talking to somebody,then you find out this is their
aunt, this is their cousin,that's their nephew.
It naturally works if we'lljust be obedient, live out the
(30:18):
obedience Christ is producing inus.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, amen, amen.
Well, thank you for being here,pastor Steve.
My blessing and we'll see youguys on the next one.
Thank you for us to recall, in today's divisive and
dark culture, from foundationaltruths and scripture to the hot
topics of today's culture.
Allow this podcast to inspireand motivate you on your faith
journey.
Well, good morning, pastor.
Steve, good morning, glad tohave you again.
Great to be here.
I think we're in the mid-20snow, so we're moving right along
(00:41):
, yes, and it's a blessing to behere.
So we're going to be in Luke,chapter 16, verses 19 through 31
, talking about the rich man andLazarus.
I'm going to go ahead and readthe scripture and then we'll
dive right in All right.
So Luke 16, 19 through 31.
Now there was a rich man and hehabitually dressed in purple
and fine linen, joyously livingin splendor every day, and a
(01:04):
poor man named Lazarus was laidat his gate, covered with sores
and longing to be fed with thecrumbs which were falling from
the rich man's table.
Besides, even the dogs werecoming and licking his sores.
Now the poor man died and wascarried away by the angels to
Abraham's bosom, and the richman also died and was buried In
Hades.
He lifted up his eyes, being intorment, and saw Abraham far
(01:26):
away and Lazarus in his bosom,and he cried out and said Father
Abraham, have mercy on me andsend Lazarus so that he may dip
the tip of his finger in waterand cool off my tongue, for I am
in agony in this flame.
But Abraham said Child,remember that during your life
you received your good thingsand likewise Lazarus, bad things
.
But now he is being comfortedhere and you are in agony.
(01:49):
And besides all this, betweenus and you there is a great
chasm fixed so that those whowish to come over from here to
you will not be able and thatnone may cross over from there
to us.
And he said Then I beg you,father, that you send him to my
father's house for I have fivebrothers in order that he may
warn them so that they will notalso come to this place of
(02:12):
torment.
But Abraham said they have Mosesand the prophets, let them hear
them.
But he said no, father Abraham,but if someone goes to them
from the dead, they will repent.
But he said to him, if they donot listen to Moses and the
prophets, they will repent.
But he said to him, if they donot listen to Moses and the
prophets, they will not bepersuaded, even if someone rises
from the dead.
So, pastor Steve, just glossingover this and we'll dig in a
(02:35):
little deeper, but how can werelate to both the rich man and
the poor man in this parable, inthis story that Jesus told?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, the parable is, I think, intended to motivate
us to share the gospel.
Gospel, literally from theGreek word, euangelion means
good news.
What is the good news?
That there is deliverance fromthe bad news Right, that there's
deliverance from the bad newsRight.
(03:07):
And so the good news is one canhave a relationship with holy
God, with all of the benefitsthat come with that.
Or if they reject thatrelationship, there are
consequences that come with that.
And so we relate to the rich manin that in America we live in a
very materialistic society.
(03:27):
We're blessed, and I believe Iunderstand this teaching in that
it wasn't because he was richhe had a problem.
It was because rich had him, helived the life that was his
world, he trusted his money, itwas his everything, if you will.
(03:49):
And then we identify withLazarus, I think, because it has
been said well that evangelismis just one beggar telling
another beggar where to findbread, were to find bread.
And the really cool thing aboutthis parable was in the first
century, whenever they wouldhave banquets, they didn't have
(04:12):
fine linens like we do now.
That wasn't a thing.
So when they got through eating, oftentimes they would take a
piece of bread and clean theirhands and throw it to the dogs,
and so that's the picture youget with Lazarus.
He's dependent on these richpeople, the table of the rich
(04:33):
man, just to barely survive.
He's destitute, he's homeless.
Beggars were people, normally,who had no other means, and
beggars were people normally whohad no other means, no family,
no help, so they were reduced tobegging, and so the imagery
there is that we are all, in oursimplest form, beggars before
(04:56):
holy God.
Yes, and so I think that's howwe can identify with both of
them.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Right and you hit the nail on the head.
I mean, this is definitelyabout urgent evangelism and I
think one of the things thatI've experienced in ministry is
that you know we've donedifferent initiatives where we
go to different neighborhoodsand try to reach the
neighborhood, where we go todifferent neighborhoods and try
to reach the neighborhood.
And the way you reach anaffluent neighborhood is a much
(05:29):
different method than the wayyou reach, say, someone on the
street or at a hotel or whatever.
And I think the reason that isis because, exactly what you
said you become so comfortablein your wealth and what you have
that it becomes who you are,and so you almost have to fit
that mold in order to reachthose people.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That's right.
Well, and here's what happens,and it still happens today.
In our culture, money is a toolto provide whatever your
heart's desire.
If you have enough money, youcan do anything you want.
Right Right, but in itssimplest form it provides for us
the basic needs to live.
(06:07):
But the more money we have, themore it becomes the most
important thing to us.
We tend to trust in it ratherthan holy God.
We tend to think our money cansolve every problem, that it'll
be there to take care of us inevery way, and that's the flaw
(06:30):
in the thinking.
We should see it as a tool, notas our protector.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right, you know I've met just a very few.
I'm sure you've met more thanme, but I've met a few people
who have a lot of money butthey're able to disconnect
themselves to its pool and Ifind that fascinating, because
that is a hard thing to do.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Incredibly hard.
I mean, we're human, right, weall like nice things, we all
want to take nice trips, we allwant great experiences, we all
want to take nice trips, we allwant great experiences.
And so the test there are a lotof critics of Rick Warren.
Okay, rick Warren made over $20million on one of his books,
(07:18):
purpose Driven Life.
Okay, he donated every dime ofthat $20 million to AIDS
ministries in Africa.
So one of the tests of successis where you reach a point where
(07:42):
you're happy and you now wantto make a difference with what
you have.
So you know, people can be ascritical of Rick Warren as they
want, but he stood the testRight you know, yeah, yeah, amen
.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So how does this parable challenge prosperity
theology?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Oh, my goodness.
You know it's hard for me tounderstand how you can get
prosperity theology and havethis parable in the same Bible.
You got to understand.
The Jews practice prosperitytheology.
It's not just the health andwealth guys.
In 2025 in America.
(08:22):
They believed that wealth was adirect blessing from God, and
so it is a direct challenge toJewish theology.
You know, and Jesus is taughtseveral times throughout the New
Testament you can have yourreward here or in heaven.
(08:43):
And the rich man, because heembraced his wealth, because he
was greedy with his wealth, hehad his reward on planet Earth.
That's all he was going to get.
And so I think and I try totell our people from time to
(09:04):
time here in our churchChristians ought to be generous.
Nothing wrong with havingwealth.
Right.
There's nothing sinful abouthaving wealth.
It's when the wealth has youthat you're in trouble.
And this man, truly, the wealthhad him.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Right.
And like you always say, youdon't have to be rich to be
generous, you have to begenerous to be generous.
That's right, no matter withwhat you have, you know and
people get mad when I say this.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Some of the most economically humble people I
know are some of the mostselfish, because their battle
cry is I can't afford that, Idon't make that much money, I
can't possibly give to that.
And it becomes their defaultanswer to everything and they
(09:54):
never once consider, you know,to that person giving $10 may be
a sacrifice, but God calls usto give sacrificially Right, and
so they're not exempt from thatbecause in their mind, they're
more poor than someone else.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And I find it interesting how many people
today, in 2025, still getswooped up in that theology,
even though the crux of thattheology is simple it's if you
have enough faith and if youtrust God enough, he will
provide an abundant blessing,and what you seed in you'll
(10:36):
fruit out.
Whereas, hey, if you pay thechurch or pay me as a ministry
$50, god will give you $100.
And it just amazes me how manypeople still believe this to be
true 100% of the time.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Here's the danger of that.
You know the old thing the bestjokes have a little bit of
truth in them.
Well, the best heresies have alittle bit of truth in them.
We are taught in Scripture thatwe reap what we sow right.
So, God, I believe Scriptureteaches, honors our obedience,
(11:11):
and he may very well bless youin financial ways.
But I firmly believe, if you'replanting a seed, so to speak,
just with your heart's intent,that I'm going to get more back,
I think you totallymisunderstand the teaching
that's right.
Scripture, as I understand it,teaches that we are not obedient
(11:37):
in order to please God or toget good results.
Obedience is produced becauseof our salvation and you are
obedient because that's who youare, as a child of God, and
whatever comes out of thatobedience is irrelevant, that's
(11:58):
God's business.
You don't plant the seedlooking to get something in
return.
You plant the seed becausethat's what God put you here to
do, right See?
And I think this is where weget off track with that thing.
I often tell people same thing.
I've seen it all my life inchurch talking to somebody and
(12:23):
they tithe, but they're nothappy about it, they feel
obligated, and I tell them youmight as well keep it.
Right.
Because Scripture's clear Ifyou're not giving with a
cheerful heart, god's not goingto bless that.
But they have this guiltreligious rules guilt that if
(12:44):
they don't do it, god's going toget them.
I've had them say things likewell, if I don't tithe, god will
get it one way or the other, mycar will break down, my water
heater will go out.
Well, that's the exact oppositeof saying if I plant this money
, I'm going to get a financialreward.
Right, see exact opposite ofsaying if I plant this money,
(13:04):
I'm going to get a financialreward, right See.
So we have to be obedient withour finances out of the natural
desire of our heart and notworry about what the return is.
That's the biblical teaching.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Right, right, I was reminded speaking about the
prosperity.
I want to hear your thoughts onthis, this prosperity theology.
I had to read a book a couplesemesters ago for school and it
was all about the start of thistheology and there was a very
prominent prosperity ministry.
I want to say it was in the 60sor the 50s, early 50s, and this
(13:43):
lady brought her child, who hadsevere diabetes, to the church
and she was on the verge ofgoing to the doctor, getting
medication and all this and thepastor in the church was like,
no, you just have to have faith.
Well, long story short, theyprayed over the child, she
prayed over the child.
Child ended up dying and couldhave been prevented from death
had she gone to the doctor andgot the medication.
(14:05):
That's an extreme example, butit's an example nonetheless of
the dangers of believing thisway.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, I'm a strong believer in the power of God and
His power to heal.
But I also am a strong believerthat when we say he provides
for us, that includes scienceand medicine and anything else
that's available to us.
It's not a lack of faith to goto the doctor.
(14:36):
You can absolutely still trustand believe that God would heal,
and he may very well do that,but that is in his purview.
Yeah.
You know, and this idea andhere's our problem Scripture
actually says that you got tobelieve.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
(14:57):
So I think you're probably notgoing to receive a healing if
you don't believe.
But this idea gets, I think,complicated when people want to
ignore the obvious blessings Godhas given us in science and
(15:18):
medical doctors.
I believe God can do anythinghe wants to do and he doesn't
need my permission to do it.
Right, I still go to the doctor.
I believe God has gifted uswith these disciplines of
knowledge to help us.
(15:38):
And so, even though I'm goingto the doctor, that doesn't
prevent me from praying that Godwould change the situation.
And I've seen it where he hasand I've seen it where he didn't
.
That's all in God's wisdom andwe'll never understand that this
(15:59):
side of heaven, that's hisbusiness.
We'll never understand thatthis side of heaven.
That's his business, and so Ithink you can get on dangerous
ground you got to be carefulRight In this parable.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I mean, the rich man is blind, even in torment, and
still doesn't realize.
Do you think that's what peoplewho go to hell will still be
blind?
Or will they see the truth andagonize over the fact that they
did reject the truth?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I think that's part of hell, just my opinion.
I think part of hell is thatyou realize what you chose not
to accept, because he startspraying to Father Abraham hey,
send somebody to my family.
I don't want them to have tocome down here where I'm at.
And, as we all know, once youtake your last breath on planet
(16:53):
Earth, the gospel is clear thatopportunity for that door is
closed.
Right.
And so it is an urging for us toshare the gospel.
I don't know how many timesI've seen it.
Somebody comes to me.
Would you come tell my daddyabout Jesus?
Would you come tell my brotherabout Jesus?
Why don't you tell them?
(17:14):
About.
Jesus the average Christian.
We know they've done studies onit.
Less than 2% of the Christiancommunity ever share their faith
with another human being 2%right, and so I think there's
going to be a whole lot ofpeople that'll end up in hell,
(17:37):
and the cry may very well be whydidn't my brother tell me?
Why didn't my kids tell me?
So again, I can't prove thatone way or the other, but I
believe part of being in hell isthe realization of what you
rejected.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's a weighty thing to think about.
It is, it seems we have so manypeople and just being in
ministry, there are people thatcome to church that don't really
walk out their faith.
That's normal everywhere.
But there are also many peoplewho are serious about their
faith and still don't share thegospel because I think they fall
(18:16):
captive to the lie of Satanthat they can't and they don't
know how, when really it's verysimple Just share what Jesus has
done for you and invite them tohave the same experience.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
A gospel presentation is simple.
This is who I was before Jesus.
This is what happened when Icame to Jesus and committed my
life to him.
This is who I am now.
The first person I ever sharedthe gospel with accepted Christ,
committed his life to him andwe were baptized together.
(18:51):
That's awesome.
I got saved on a Sunday and Ishared the gospel with him on
Monday afternoon and the nextSunday we were baptized together
.
I didn't even know John 3.16.
Yeah.
So it is a huge lie of Satan.
People feel like they got tohave a Bible degree or they have
to be some kind of scholar.
(19:12):
Right, you cannot argue with achanged life, you just can't.
Right?
I mean you can, but I don'tthink it gets any traction.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I didn't know that about you.
That's kind of similar to mystory.
Whenever I started going to theold church, I accepted Christ,
got baptized in March, sharedthe gospel with my coworker
Again, I didn't know any of thescripture, but I just shared
what Jesus did and he gotbaptized in June at the church.
Yeah, but Jesus did and he gotbaptized in.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
June at the church.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, and I just yeah .
I mean, whenever you're changed, you want to share it.
You want to share?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So let's talk about at the end of the parable it's
clear to a person who won'tbelieve, if they don't believe
the prophets or Moses, they'redefinitely not going to believe
resurrection, this idea of nomatter what miracle you see and
still not believe in the truth.
At what point do we come to aconclusion as believers that we
(20:12):
know the Scripture says God hasto draw the heart, but we also
know we have free agency, wehave free will.
So talk about the tension ofthat a little bit, because it's
clear here that it's like, hey,if they don't believe Moses or
the prophets, they're not goingto believe the resurrection,
even if they see someone risefrom the dead.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
My take on this particular parable is it really
creates a problem for thefive-point Calvinist.
Why would we have this parablewhere the man was given the
opportunity to make a decisionfor Christ and chose not to?
He could have chose to acceptChrist, commit his life to
(20:56):
Christ, but he didn't right.
And so the reality of thisthing is, I believe firmly as
you say every human being ispresented with the opportunity.
We call it the conviction ofthe Holy Spirit.
God's nudging is I think that'swhat we call being drawn Right
(21:18):
the nudging of the Holy Spiritto respond to a holy God.
And what keeps many people fromthat, in my humble opinion, is
the desire to be their own God,the desire to be totally in
charge of their own life.
They cannot fathom the idea ofcommitting themselves to this
(21:40):
God who's then going to dictatewho they are and how they should
live.
They're just not quite able todo that.
So this guy you know, you havethe rich young ruler who comes
to Jesus At night and Jesus sayshe wants to know how to be
saved.
And Jesus says go, selleverything you got and give it
(22:03):
to the poor.
And he can't do it.
He was given an opportunity, achoice Can't do it, you know.
And the Scripture says he wentaway sad and I think the reason
he goes away sad is he wouldmake a great modern-day
Christian.
We all want the best of thisworld and we don't want to have
to give it up to have the bestof the world after this, that's
(22:27):
good yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, that's a good word.
I think about that when yousaid he would make a good
modern-day Christian.
Whenever I'm counseling someoneor talking to someone trying to
explain the gospel to them, atall times the root of the
(22:50):
barrier has to do with a grip onsomething here.
Yes, so that's a goodrealization there.
I never actually saw thatperspective before.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Think about what we often say.
Somebody say how are you doingtoday?
And the response is I woke upthis morning, I'm doing great.
Now, as believers, shouldn'tour response be more like well
darn it, I'm still here.
Jesus hasn't taken me home yet.
If we really believe in heavenand all that it's supposed to be
.
But we are so connected to thisworld we're going to talk about
(23:24):
this Sunday being aliens inthis world.
We should be a littleuncomfortable here in our skin.
And I'm not saying have a deathwish, but what I'm saying is
there should be a yearning, adesire for the promises that we
(23:46):
have in Christ, but we tend notto do that.
We tend not to do that.
Another interesting thing manyyears ago there was a study done
on the percentage of people inour society that believe in
heaven, and the interestingthing was they found out that
almost everyone who believes inheaven believes they're going to
(24:09):
heaven.
And I find that veryinteresting because just because
you believe in heaven doesn'tmean you're going to heaven.
As we know, Scripture teachesyou got to believe Jesus is the
Messiah and commit your life tohim.
Just the belief there's aheaven won't get you there, but
(24:31):
much of our society believesthat and it's played out in this
phrase.
You often hear I'm a goodperson.
I think another one of Satan'slies I'm a good person, so
surely I'm going to heaven.
Right, that's just not whatscripture teaches us is the
(24:52):
criteria for heaven.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
That's right.
How do you say it?
I don't slap my mama, I don'tspit or chew.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Oh, don't drink, cuss , chew or run with girls that do
yeah, yeah.
So I'm a good old boy, I'm agood old boy, don't kick my dog,
don't cheat on my taxes.
Surely I'm going to heaven,right, yeah, yeah.
The problem is none of thosethings have anything to do with
heaven.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Correct.
Yeah, yeah.
So last point is urgentevangelism.
We don't know the day, the timeor the hour.
Why is it, Steve, that?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
it's difficult for people to understand the
importance of sharing theirfaith Well, in its simplest form
, if there are people around youthat you love and care about
and you're a believer in theLord Jesus Christ, meaning that
you really believe he's who hesays he is and he's going to do
what he says he's going to do.
You know there's a reckoningday where he'll separate the
(26:01):
wheat and the chaff, and yourealize that's a reality.
And not only do you want to bewith the wheat in heaven, you
want to take those you love themost with you, and so there
should be a care and a concernfor those you love that would
(26:22):
make you want to share with them.
My own mother I've told thisstory who had been turned off by
the church, who had been turnedoff by the church and you know
it's easy for that to happen,because the church is made up of
humans.
(26:43):
Humans do dumb things, andhumans are oftentimes hypocrites
and what they say and dodoesn't line up.
And so my mother was verycritical of the church, and I
had shared the gospel with herthree or four times over the
years.
She always rejected it, butthen she was in the hospital in
(27:05):
intensive care, and I drove hometo visit with her and I asked
her how she was doing.
She said fine, told the doctor,I'm ready to go.
If this is it, don't worryabout me.
And my natural response wasokay, who helped you do this?
And her answer was a blessingand it was comical.
(27:29):
She said nobody.
You told me enough times how todo it.
She said nobody, you told meenough times how to do it.
And so you know, I had resolvedin my heart, after I've been in
ministry many years, thatneither my mom or dad would ever
come to Christ.
Both of them came to Christjust a few years before they
passed.
(27:49):
It took that long, right?
So you never give up on yourloved ones.
You always stay consistent,share the gospel because you
care about them.
The other thing is and westruggle with this as ministers
you got to live with a purposeand I fight this all the time.
(28:13):
We get caught up doing themundane here in church life.
You know we're meeting withpeople about something all the
time.
We're dealing with this, we'reputting out a fire, we're.
You know it's something to doall day long.
You get to the end of the dayand you've done stuff all day,
but you don't feel like you'veaccomplished anything for the
kingdom Right.
(28:33):
And you've done stuff all day,but you don't feel like you've
accomplished anything for thekingdom right.
And so, in order to share thegospel, you've got to get up in
the morning and determine thatyou're going to look for an
opportunity.
Right, you know we call it adivine intervention when a
willing witness crosses pathswith a seeking soul.
Right, but if you're not awilling witness, those seeking
(28:56):
souls will come around you allday long.
Yeah.
And they'll never hear thegospel.
Right.
So I think our biggestchallenge, even as ministers, is
that we've got to do a betterjob of living our faith with
purpose, looking to share it.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Right, yeah, and I think some people think, and
they tell me this, and God hascalled me to do a specific type
of evangelism, but he has notcalled everyone to do that type
Right?
And I think what's importantfor people to realize is that
just think about your family andyour close friends and then
(29:39):
think about the whole church,their family and their close
friends.
That's a lot of people.
So if we would just reach theones that are close to us which
I believe is the most effectiveevangelism anyway, absolutely
Then that multiplication effectis astronomical.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
It is, it is, it is.
And if you look at the averagechurch, you can see that Our
church is larger, so it's alittle harder to see, but it's
here.
You're talking to somebody,then you find out this is their
aunt, this is their cousin,that's their nephew.
It naturally works if we'lljust be obedient, live out the
(30:18):
obedience Christ is producing inus.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, amen, amen.
Well, thank you for being here,pastor Steve.
My blessing and we'll see youguys on the next one.
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