November 24, 2024 • 30 mins
Join us in this engaging discussion as we explore the essential role of communication in nurturing healthy family relationships. Together with our guest, Derek Boylan, we shed light on how communication serves as the bedrock for expressing needs, conveying information, and solving problems between partners, parents, and children. We reveal the surprising insight that habitual avoidance of conflict is a significant predictor of divorce, often more so than constant arguments. By addressing the silence and lack of communication that often precede a breakup, we aim to empower listeners to foster open dialogues in their relationships.
Discover the nuances of effective communication, where tone and body language can significantly influence interactions. We discuss the common challenges couples face, especially in the early stages of their relationships, such as negotiating household responsibilities and making joint decisions. Miscommunication can lead to defensiveness, but with patience and a flexible approach, couples can navigate these challenges more successfully. By sharing personal anecdotes, like adjusting roles in managing household finances, we illustrate how treating negotiations as experiments can enhance understanding and cooperation.
Because Families matter Most
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Figuring Out Families by Majellan Media, where we help make families the best
(00:13):
they can be. We're pleased to be joined by marriage counsellor and family expert Derek
Boiland for what we are calling the focus sessions aimed at helping families with relationship
issues. Together with Derek over a number of these sessions, we will explore the most
pressing issues facing families today. We hope you enjoy and find this series valuable.
Welcome to the second episode of our focus session. Again, it's my great pleasure to welcome back
(00:47):
Derek Boiland. Hello Derek. It's great to be here again David. Now Derek, in the last episode we
spoke about the impact coronavirus has been having on families. You shared some strategies to help in
the time of lockdown. Today we turn our attention to one of the most important things in any
relationship and I don't think anyone would disagree with this and that's communications.
(01:07):
Absolutely. I mean communication is the foundation of strong relationships and so it's and there's
a lot of pitfalls that go with communication but there's also a lot of practical things that
people can do that actually work and that help communication so it's good to explore some of
those things today. Yeah, exactly right and some people communicate well. I think we could say
(01:29):
that about the family home and at work and whatever. Other people struggle. Communication is so
important but why is it so important in a particular relationship with partners? Absolutely. I think
it's important in every relationship David and that's especially between partners and you know
in a relationship like marriage but also between parents and children. I mean I think any parent
(01:51):
who has a teenager will know how tricky communication can be at times with someone who's
really and doesn't want to communicate but I guess that the reason why communication is so
important is because how we make our needs known. It's how we gain information. It's how we convey
information to other people. I guess how we clarify our expectations and solve problems. You know
(02:13):
it's central to every aspect of family life and in fact actually one of the things that we know
is that one of the number one predictors of divorce today is the habitual avoidance of
conflict. You know we like to imagine that the couples who separate are arguing all the time
and disagreeing with one another and fighting and slam doors and raised voices but in fact what we
(02:36):
know is that actually what they do is they just stop talking to one another. That they stop
communicating at all and they've been very silent homes prior to a divorce most of the time. The
habitual avoidance of conflict as ironic as it might sound is actually the biggest predictor of
divorce today. Right I mean I've heard of examples where people constantly fight verbally but they
(02:58):
seem to have happy relationships. Yeah that's right and I kind of think you know it's funny
because I experienced this often with the couples that I see for counseling is that actually in a
funny way the ones who are arguing a lot have the stand a better chance of actually solving their
problems. I mean they can be toxic arguing that definitely that even healthy for relationships but
(03:18):
you know gender disagreements and trying to work through problems you know they're fighting for
something better. They want something better in their relationship and in a funny way I kind of
hope that every couple even when they reach the age of 80 they're still looking for something
better. They're still wanting more out of their relationship and sometimes you know I guess those
conversations are tricky they're hard to get right. Yeah you mentioned habitual avoidance of
(03:43):
conflict which is an interesting term. Is that something with the people that you've come across
where that's been an issue? Has that been a problem from the start of their relationship or is it
just something that's grown over time? Yeah look I think it's something that does often start at
the very beginning of a relationship but actually probably earlier than that. You know if someone
has had a really bad experience of conflict in relationships and family life in the early in
(04:08):
life it can create a lot of fear and anxiety about going into new relationships and raising
difficult conversations about what that actually might mean for the relationship. But I guess you
know the reason why couples fall into that pattern of not talking and not communicating is just
from the experience of what it's like not to be heard by someone. I mean if you think maybe David
(04:30):
had a time in your life you know maybe in childhood even where you went to talk to someone about
something that was really important to you. Maybe a school teacher or parents or later in life a
partner and that person didn't listen. For you what were the feelings that sort of came up that
(04:51):
go with not being heard by someone? How does it feel not to be heard by someone? What's your
experience of that? Well nobody likes that. I mean everyone wants to be heard. Everyone has a voice
so if you feel like you're being neglected or just shoved aside I think your natural reaction is
to either get angry or to hide under a rock. Yeah absolutely and I think that's the experience for
(05:14):
almost everyone when they feel not heard. They feel angry, they feel frustrated. Sometimes they feel
lonely if they feel that's the only person that they can talk to. At other times people feel
insecure or vulnerable and I guess you know if we have the experience now families where every
single time we try to raise a conversation we feel unheard and it generates those sort of strong
(05:37):
feelings inside of us. The feeling abandoned, feeling lonely, feeling frustrated. Then eventually
actually we learn to just stop talking. You know we just stop raising these conversations because
it's too painful to have those discussions and I think that's probably the number one reason why
people eventually just stop talking in their families and then that really I guess awards the
(05:59):
relationship. Okay Derek you mentioned the conflict avoidance if I can put it that way and nobody
wants to be ignored or frustrated so the easy answer for a lot of people is just to go quiet
which as you said doesn't help a relationship. Is it often the case in your experience that one
person in any marriage or relationship and partners enjoy the occasional verbal stout but
(06:21):
one person is stronger than the other and that can lead to issues? Yeah definitely it can be and
it's an avoiding conflict isn't necessarily bad. I think that's I think it's important to say that
not all conflict is good and not all avoidance of conflict is good either if it makes sense. Yeah
you kind of you need to pick your battle I suppose in relationships and certainly you know some
(06:44):
people are more argumentative than others and I think in any situation it needs to sort of work out
is this actually really important to me or not? You know sometimes it's reasonable just the kind
of girl I can see this is really important to you and it's actually not that important to me and
I'm happy to give you what I want but we make a habit of avoiding conflict and I think we sort of
(07:07):
need to look at what that might be about you know sometimes that you know it's because of the anxiety
that it can sort of create the thought of sort of going into those conversations and how they might
turn out often that's been formed you know as we were growing up as I said earlier you know we've
really witnessed toxic conflict in our homes growing up it can be really tough it can be kind
of scary to have one of those conversations because we're afraid of how it might go how it might turn
(07:31):
out but I guess it's really important to remember that actually every single communication in a
family relationship not just the deeper meaningful ones not just the difficult ones every single
communication is actually what a research that John Gottman refers to as an emotional give and so
(07:51):
what it means what it means by that is that most of our communication that we that takes place in
our homes on any given day is actually not difficult conversations arguments it's not
deep and meaningfuls it's it's actually pretty functional social talk it's things like you
know you pass the salts or do you know where I put the car keys did you remember ringing
my back what have you got on today how was your day it's a pretty ordinary social talk but I guess
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the argument that that some researchers are making now is that actually these communications are
really important even something really as simple as could you pass the salt it's important because
whatever comes back when we initiate that kind of conversation has emotional gravity it's an
emotional give I'll give you an example let's say Princess Karen did say to me we sit down
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but you know and Karen says to me could you pass the salt typically I have three options available
to me right what is I could just pass of the salt and go yeah sure he's the salt and that's the
nice thing that's the loving thing and okay I go states and and gets on with you that a second
option so I'm turning towards the second option is to turn away from her just sort of ignore her
(09:00):
and if she really wants the salt well maybe she'll ask again me as I've got to say David you know
blurks like you and I are more guilty of this response than women is what the research tells
us run and typically we're not intentional about it we're just sort of we have this experience
where maybe it's been your experience and I certainly mind where I'm so engrossed in something
(09:23):
and someone says something to me and a few brain cells in my brain go being someone just said
something to me and then the rest of my brain cells say it was important they'll say it again
we just reflect we just want to branch it off and wait till the person says it to a free time
but what we have to realize is this is frustrating for the people that we're in relationships with
(09:45):
brown children brown hearted that everybody else it's as interesting the research suggests that
women when they use that strategy at generally more intentional about it yeah that I mean
I'm ignoring you because I'm cranky with you and there was a great study that came out of
California a couple of years ago and they found that most men in that situation take
(10:09):
approximately 13 minutes to realize they're being punished but that they're being ignored and but
either way it's not a great way to respond to someone and and then of course the third option
available to us is to turn against the other person you know do you know how bad salt is for
you it's gonna harden your arteries you're the only person who uses salt around here we don't
want you get it out of the cupboard when you need it and and you know every time we communicate on
(10:34):
any level about any subject those are the three options that are available to us we concern
towards the person that's communicating with us we can turn away from them ignore them or we can
turn against them sure but I guess what we need to realize is that if you know in 99% of our
conversations are made up of the social functional sort of discussion and in in most of them if we
(10:58):
turn away or turn against the other person then really all those little conversations become a
test you know that whether we can actually have deeper conversation you know if I can't talk to
you safely about asking salt I'm never gonna talk to you about the things that are really important
to me the rings that have emotional gravity that I really worry about that I'd really like to
(11:19):
resolve I guess you know we talk about communication it's important for us to keep in mind that
everything is important every communication is important on every level every day not just the
deeper meaningful things or the tricky conversations they're all yeah yeah and it's also I mean it's
a good example about passing the salt it depends how you ask it to you could say can you pass the
(11:41):
salt in a really sort of offensive or nasty way so that your partner will know straight away you're
not in a good mood and you might suddenly put up the barriers and say no you can get your own salt
and they're on the backboard immediately right from the get-go yeah absolutely I think that's a
good point David and that and it's a and it highlights the fact that you know both people
(12:02):
actually have to take responsibility you know when we communicate the person who's raising the
issue or the topic actually has to take some responsibility for how they do that how they
express that and the person at the receiving end who's at the listening end also has to take
responsibility yeah and it's the same even with emails he can say that you receive an email saying
oh this person's not happy and yet the person who sent the email is happy but they've just
(12:24):
worded it badly hmm yeah I think we're probably all been on the receiving end of the email
oh I've got a couple yep yeah and I think that the I think the the advantage at least with email is
that I can sit on it for a while I can leave it for half a day and sort of think about how I'm
gonna bed my response and in families it's much tougher because we're right there face to face
sitting across the dinner table and and it sort of necessitates a more immediate response and
(12:48):
when I feel like defensiveness kicking it's really hard to to respond and not react yes and you can
become defensive and unnecessarily so because you might read into something that's just not there
yeah absolutely a hundred percent and I think with families there's interesting research there was
done many years ago and they found that when we communicate 55% of the message typically in just
(13:11):
a general communication is visual it's what we see with our eyes and it's got nothing to do with
our mouth or our ears 38% of the message is vocal it's our tone of voice you know the agent is
saying it and only about 7% is verbal the actual words coming out and that was research that was
done just you know on ordinary people maybe you don't know we want another and how they communicate
(13:34):
but I suspect in families that 7% gets narrower and narrower because we get really good at reading
the body language and the tone of voice of the other family members and so it's very easy to sort
of react without really actually listening to the message and hearing the big thing. No that's right
and tone is so important and just a slight inflection the wrong word and what you ask for
(13:56):
all that can have a totally different meaning really yeah absolutely yeah and interpreted a
different one yeah that's right so for couples early on in their relationship Derek how important
is it to make decisions on things like household chores who does the vacuuming who does the washing
who mows the lawns that sort of thing yeah I think you know it's it's and that's a great question
(14:18):
David because certainly what the research tells us is that that's one of the top three things that
couples argue about the most in the first five years of marriage in those really early stages
quite a workout what's the balance between you know my time your time getting chores done to work
building our families Adam how do we balance all of those things and responsibilities is really a
(14:38):
tricky journey and so I think the first thing is to be patient with themselves and with each other
that this is actually a normal challenge to sort of work through those things I guess the best
advice that I have is is to treat it as an experiment you know not to try and lock things down
to you know in stone too early in the relationship you know sometimes when couples try to work out
(15:01):
those things they sort of come to an agreement let's say for instance you know you only have to
forget the being on binda and one or two times to realize we need to make sure that the bing goes
out on the verge and so they're kind of comes to an arrangement you know what that'll be your job
you know his job with her job and and so it's your job that way we're not both trying to do it and
both of us beginning that one person's job but that's a member or a minor in their phone or whatever
(15:24):
it might be yeah and then and then somehow that sort of decision gets locked in stone sort of forever
and and I guess you know couples should really treat these things with spare as an experiment
when we come especially in early stages of this you go well let's try this and let's see if that
works for a month whatever doesn't work we'll do something different in an example now at our
(15:46):
marriage was at the very beginning of our marriage Karen would manage most of our finances and rise
where it came to you know I was the primary wager and Karen was really one who did most of
the shopping and paid bills and put money at the iron and you know and initiated conversations
about purchase a home and those things and and that was great suited me very well and I didn't
(16:08):
get too much of the work in that regard yeah but you know a few years ago as our family grew and
I was we home floor and and Karen worked with each pathologist you know she just really realized
that it was just too much on her plate to try and do that as well and sat down and I had a
conversation with Karen said look can you can you take over managing up I had to do this really
(16:31):
hard but the baby do it on my own and and I said sure that there's no problems at all and that's
what I took it over but you know it was an experiment you know and it took a little while
about six months for us to adjust to that change because I do things differently you know Karen had
a way of organizing new counts and when things look like how and what money got put aside where
to paper different things you know those rates or whatever it might be and I kind of thought okay
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I see how Karen used to do I've kind of gonna do it a different way and and so for us just
communicating about that and adjusting to those changes I took a little bit of time and so I
was encouraged couples treated as an experiment just try things out don't lock them in stone you
know you can always come back and and and change and do things another way and that's the great
thing about being human being. Yeah it's all about negotiation isn't it? It's one of those things
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that sometimes no right or wrong everyone has a different way of doing things and you know your
partner might have a better way of doing it and that's when that's good to open your ears and listen.
Yeah absolutely I agree. Now no one likes to be criticized we've sort of touched on this already
but isn't it often a standard response that we do put up the shutters when we're being chastised?
(17:42):
How important is it to listen to the other person's point of view?
Listening is really really important in fact it's probably one of the most powerful things
anyone can do in their relationship when it comes to communication and you know when we're
receiving criticism you're absolutely right it's really difficult to hear and the natural human
(18:03):
response almost always in any situation when we feel that we're being criticized the natural human
reaction to that is resisted we will defeat sickness we want to push back against that you
know hang on a minute you don't understand the situation or what about my feelings if you want
to sort of push back against that you know we have an innate I guess defensiveness inside of us
(18:25):
when we feel that we're being attacked in some way and so I guess the first sort of thing that we
need to do is is to really sort of learn to to resist our own reacting so that we can sort of
respond to situations that we're faced with and difficult conversations rather than just react
to them and an example would be the other night in our home we have a sort of a set
(18:46):
routine at bedtime usually Karen all that you want to go to bed all that you want to go to bed and
there's a few things that need to happen you know we feed the cat and we turn off the lights and
do the kiss and kiss goodnight and brush our teeth and we finally get into bed yeah and and so Karen
said to me you know I didn't you want to go to bed and I said yeah and I thought I'll go brush my
teeth and so I sort of walked out of the room and Karen I think thought that I just left her to do
(19:08):
everything else to you know feed the cat and kiss the kids goodnight and spend all the light off
and just like you just you just went to bed and left me to do it all and because she so she called
out and she said to me have you fed the cat now they were the words that came out of her mouth but
I could tell you right now she was not asking about the cat instantly I could feel the airs
(19:28):
go up on the back of my neck I thought you're having a go at me you just think I've just walked
off and left you to do everything around yet yeah and but when I really thought about it I
thought you know there's actually nothing more we watch you sit you know she just asked have I fed
the cat and and rather than sort of reacting and getting defensive because I thought that it was
attacking me instead I just called out and I said look no I haven't I'm just brushing my teeth and
(19:50):
I'll be back to get the cat some food in the minute and immediately the situation was disarmed
you know it and everything was fine and Karen you had just abandoned her and left her to do everything
yeah um you know I guess yeah that that is an important skill isn't it you've used the word
disarm it's so important some people do it really well some people don't but just disarming the
(20:13):
situation and calming everything down as quickly as you can hmm I think you know it's uh what we
sometimes lose sight of is that actually the person who listens in any communication has the most
power to influence and uh um you know on one level we know that's sort of in our head you know in
that if um if someone's not very good at communicating they're struggling to express how
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they feel a really good listening can make up for that a really good listening can say you know
this is what you mean or this is what you're trying to say and to help that person to express what
they want to say um but also if a person is a really great communicator they could be the best
communicator in the world but if the other person doesn't want to listen and that's not going to work
you know nothing's going to happen there so listening and developing the skill of listening
(20:58):
is really important and it's hard to do because often we actually want to be at the other end
we're feeling frustrated because we feel that we're not getting heard um that people aren't
listening to what we're saying and yet actually if we can sort of put that on hold a little bit
and really just stop and pay attention to what the other person is saying uh and and sort of
communicate that we're hearing what they're saying then that has the greatest success of actually
(21:22):
uh softening the conversation allowing people to feel that they're being heard and understood and
for two people whether it's a parent and a child or whether it's a couple to be able to actually
really be able to hear one another and get from headway. Well it's affirming what your partner
is saying and you're not dismissing them which is just so important. Absolutely I agree Tali yeah
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and no one lasts a bit. No no my mother I remember years ago used to accuse my father of having a
selective hearing and my father's comeback was no no I just uh going deaf that's all.
I think that won't be my parents as well that is uh significantly resisted getting a hearing aid
(22:08):
and I think that's intentional. Well even if you have a hearing aid you can turn it off I believe
so. Oh that's right yes. Oh sorry I forgot my hearing aid on. That's right it's a good excuse
but it's an excuse that'll only last the for so long really. That's right and much better to
(22:28):
have some good skills with being able to listen. Exactly right. So listening you've talked about
listening and how important it is is there anything else that you can recommend people should do
especially if they're having some sort of issues and you know it's like two people just talking
at each other rather than listening to each other is anything else you could suggest?
(22:49):
Yeah look I think there's some some simple things that that any couple can do to develop their
listening skills and interestingly they'll find that as they work on their listening skills
they'll also find that they feel like they're getting heard more as well you know that as they
listen to the other person that takes the sting out of the conversation and the other person is
more into reciprocating and hearing what they've got to say. So I guess a few things I guess the
(23:13):
first thing is that when we feel criticised we feel attacked but in a funny way criticism actually
most of the time in the family is really a request for help it's just that they have no other way of
saying it. You know if I Karen spent the whole day cleaning the lounge and then I walk in after work
and then five minutes after I arrive my shoes and my socks are lying in the middle of the floor
(23:36):
and I'm parked on the couch and she says to me you know I can't believe you have your socks on the
floor that it feels like criticism I feel defensive where she's really doing is just actually asking
for help she's just saying you know I spent the whole day cleaning up here and that probably
was after you come home you know you're closer in the middle of the floor and you know I need your
help to sort of to solve this. I think we have sort of key criticism as actually a request to help
(24:01):
it softens our response you know it's not very nice to hear it that way and certainly we react
to the body language and the tone of voice but we get to realize that since frustrated they're
trying to say something important and I can listen to that in that it takes a little bit of the sting
out of the criticism. Yeah so sort of like turning what Mike perceive initially is a negative question
(24:22):
or a negative statement into a positive just turning your whole thinking around. Absolutely
there's a story that a psychologist in the US George Gowd, George Daub sometimes is using the
past and I really quite like it it's about a two little boys and they are the most miserable
(24:42):
little boys that you can ever imagine having as a parent. They fight and they argue and they break
things and their parents have tried everything they've done everything that they can think of to try
and you know change their their children's their son's behavior and eventually they realize that
you know what we tried everything Christmas is coming and this year I think you know it's probably
(25:06):
going to be the case that Sandra is a good at visit right because their behaviors has been so bad and
so on Christmas morning these two little boys wake up and they're so excited this is the best
day of the year and they race downstairs to the Christmas tree and when they get there underneath
a Christmas tree all that there is is a pile of mule who do and yeah and the first the oldest son
(25:34):
he is heartbroken he knows that they have been the naughtiest most miserable siblings that any
parents could ever have and and this year there are no Christmas presents and he is hyper he
bursts into tears and his little brother he starts running around he's excited he goes into the back
yard he goes in the front yard he goes looking in the kitchen the laundry and everywhere else in the
(25:54):
house and and the big brother says to him says you know right there's no presents this year like
we've been too naughty and and he's uh his little brother says listen with a pile of man you were
that big there's got to be a pony here somewhere and uh but I think you know really this is actually
(26:15):
the art of really good listening you know in tough situations sometimes when we're trying to communicate
what we feel that we're receiving is actually a pile of crap you know we feel that we're just
getting a heap of manure and uh and we feel defensive about that but you know the thing
about that is that you can't have a pile of manure without a pony but almost always in our families
(26:38):
when we feel that we're getting you know a response you know or a request that seems unreasonable
it's not very nice it's difficult to hear actually the person is trying to say something
positive but they just don't have a very good way of expressing it yeah so the art of really good
listening is actually learning how to look for the pony right is that as the as this person is
(26:59):
saying this I can feel that defensive reaction inside of me and to kind of go all right this doesn't
feel very good but there is a pony here somewhere they're trying to say something positive if I can
find a way of looking for it and responding to that um you know if I have cameras as I you know
oh I can't believe you left your socks on the floor and I was to look around then I feel a bit
defensive inside I've only sat down like you know I've only been home five minutes yeah so instead
(27:23):
I look around and sort of say oh you really put some work into cleaning this room today you know
immediately this thing comes out of that conversation you know and uh and yeah it goes more smoothly
yep I guess a couple of other practical tips though one is to not interrupts uh you know
interrupting is a short fly away of showing that you're not really listening and that you're more
interested in just pushing your view on onto the other person you know and as we've talked about over
(27:50):
the course of uh of um this session just being aware of our own body language and what it's
communicating so if we're really trying to listen you know making sure we face the other person putting
the tv on mute all them you know the game aside and and giving them our full attention and I think
maybe one of the most important things that we can do is to practice checking the message you know
(28:11):
when we listen our ears are not very expressive you know so it's really hard to know if the other
person is actually really taking in what it is that we're saying yeah and and the easiest way to
to communicate that we listen in is every now and then to just put into our own words what it is that
we think that we're hearing you know to say to the other person all right I'll get you right what
(28:33):
you're saying is this or let me see is this what you're telling me that you want you know I really
encourage couples and families really get into the habit of making that a daily practice in your
life whenever you communicate or anyone communicates to you just check the message just you know
someone says oh could you get the milk just say to them you want to pick up the milk on the way on
you know they know that you've heard you've got the message you reinforce that in your own mind
(28:56):
and so you're more likely to be able to follow up on that you'll be surprised if you make a habit
of checking the message how often actually the other person will say no that's not what I'm
mean at all I'm trying to say something else and then as a couple as a family you get closer to
getting to the heart of the matter the guts of what's really going on yeah it's also really
reassuring you know when someone checks the message with us it communicates to us all right
(29:19):
they might not agree with me but at least they're trying to understand and that really helps you
know the communication yeah no no that that's a good point look I think we're almost out of time but
this communication on the subject of communication Derek is so important we're coming back for another
session and getting into some of the nitty-gritty around emotions looking forward to that oh me too
(29:43):
I think emotions are I mean really powerful and they drive our behavior they influence every
aspect of family life and I think talking about those difficult emotions and how to handle them
and how to express them is really important for healthy families looking forward to talking to you
again soon thanks Derek you too David thank you
Welcome to Figuring Out Families by Majellan Media, where we help make families the best
(00:13):
they can be. We're pleased to be joined by marriage counsellor and family expert Derek
Boiland for what we are calling the focus sessions aimed at helping families with relationship
issues. Together with Derek over a number of these sessions, we will explore the most
pressing issues facing families today. We hope you enjoy and find this series valuable.
Welcome to the second episode of our focus session. Again, it's my great pleasure to welcome back
(00:47):
Derek Boiland. Hello Derek. It's great to be here again David. Now Derek, in the last episode we
spoke about the impact coronavirus has been having on families. You shared some strategies to help in
the time of lockdown. Today we turn our attention to one of the most important things in any
relationship and I don't think anyone would disagree with this and that's communications.
(01:07):
Absolutely. I mean communication is the foundation of strong relationships and so it's and there's
a lot of pitfalls that go with communication but there's also a lot of practical things that
people can do that actually work and that help communication so it's good to explore some of
those things today. Yeah, exactly right and some people communicate well. I think we could say
(01:29):
that about the family home and at work and whatever. Other people struggle. Communication is so
important but why is it so important in a particular relationship with partners? Absolutely. I think
it's important in every relationship David and that's especially between partners and you know
in a relationship like marriage but also between parents and children. I mean I think any parent
(01:51):
who has a teenager will know how tricky communication can be at times with someone who's
really and doesn't want to communicate but I guess that the reason why communication is so
important is because how we make our needs known. It's how we gain information. It's how we convey
information to other people. I guess how we clarify our expectations and solve problems. You know
(02:13):
it's central to every aspect of family life and in fact actually one of the things that we know
is that one of the number one predictors of divorce today is the habitual avoidance of
conflict. You know we like to imagine that the couples who separate are arguing all the time
and disagreeing with one another and fighting and slam doors and raised voices but in fact what we
(02:36):
know is that actually what they do is they just stop talking to one another. That they stop
communicating at all and they've been very silent homes prior to a divorce most of the time. The
habitual avoidance of conflict as ironic as it might sound is actually the biggest predictor of
divorce today. Right I mean I've heard of examples where people constantly fight verbally but they
(02:58):
seem to have happy relationships. Yeah that's right and I kind of think you know it's funny
because I experienced this often with the couples that I see for counseling is that actually in a
funny way the ones who are arguing a lot have the stand a better chance of actually solving their
problems. I mean they can be toxic arguing that definitely that even healthy for relationships but
(03:18):
you know gender disagreements and trying to work through problems you know they're fighting for
something better. They want something better in their relationship and in a funny way I kind of
hope that every couple even when they reach the age of 80 they're still looking for something
better. They're still wanting more out of their relationship and sometimes you know I guess those
conversations are tricky they're hard to get right. Yeah you mentioned habitual avoidance of
(03:43):
conflict which is an interesting term. Is that something with the people that you've come across
where that's been an issue? Has that been a problem from the start of their relationship or is it
just something that's grown over time? Yeah look I think it's something that does often start at
the very beginning of a relationship but actually probably earlier than that. You know if someone
has had a really bad experience of conflict in relationships and family life in the early in
(04:08):
life it can create a lot of fear and anxiety about going into new relationships and raising
difficult conversations about what that actually might mean for the relationship. But I guess you
know the reason why couples fall into that pattern of not talking and not communicating is just
from the experience of what it's like not to be heard by someone. I mean if you think maybe David
(04:30):
had a time in your life you know maybe in childhood even where you went to talk to someone about
something that was really important to you. Maybe a school teacher or parents or later in life a
partner and that person didn't listen. For you what were the feelings that sort of came up that
(04:51):
go with not being heard by someone? How does it feel not to be heard by someone? What's your
experience of that? Well nobody likes that. I mean everyone wants to be heard. Everyone has a voice
so if you feel like you're being neglected or just shoved aside I think your natural reaction is
to either get angry or to hide under a rock. Yeah absolutely and I think that's the experience for
(05:14):
almost everyone when they feel not heard. They feel angry, they feel frustrated. Sometimes they feel
lonely if they feel that's the only person that they can talk to. At other times people feel
insecure or vulnerable and I guess you know if we have the experience now families where every
single time we try to raise a conversation we feel unheard and it generates those sort of strong
(05:37):
feelings inside of us. The feeling abandoned, feeling lonely, feeling frustrated. Then eventually
actually we learn to just stop talking. You know we just stop raising these conversations because
it's too painful to have those discussions and I think that's probably the number one reason why
people eventually just stop talking in their families and then that really I guess awards the
(05:59):
relationship. Okay Derek you mentioned the conflict avoidance if I can put it that way and nobody
wants to be ignored or frustrated so the easy answer for a lot of people is just to go quiet
which as you said doesn't help a relationship. Is it often the case in your experience that one
person in any marriage or relationship and partners enjoy the occasional verbal stout but
(06:21):
one person is stronger than the other and that can lead to issues? Yeah definitely it can be and
it's an avoiding conflict isn't necessarily bad. I think that's I think it's important to say that
not all conflict is good and not all avoidance of conflict is good either if it makes sense. Yeah
you kind of you need to pick your battle I suppose in relationships and certainly you know some
(06:44):
people are more argumentative than others and I think in any situation it needs to sort of work out
is this actually really important to me or not? You know sometimes it's reasonable just the kind
of girl I can see this is really important to you and it's actually not that important to me and
I'm happy to give you what I want but we make a habit of avoiding conflict and I think we sort of
(07:07):
need to look at what that might be about you know sometimes that you know it's because of the anxiety
that it can sort of create the thought of sort of going into those conversations and how they might
turn out often that's been formed you know as we were growing up as I said earlier you know we've
really witnessed toxic conflict in our homes growing up it can be really tough it can be kind
of scary to have one of those conversations because we're afraid of how it might go how it might turn
(07:31):
out but I guess it's really important to remember that actually every single communication in a
family relationship not just the deeper meaningful ones not just the difficult ones every single
communication is actually what a research that John Gottman refers to as an emotional give and so
(07:51):
what it means what it means by that is that most of our communication that we that takes place in
our homes on any given day is actually not difficult conversations arguments it's not
deep and meaningfuls it's it's actually pretty functional social talk it's things like you
know you pass the salts or do you know where I put the car keys did you remember ringing
my back what have you got on today how was your day it's a pretty ordinary social talk but I guess
(08:16):
the argument that that some researchers are making now is that actually these communications are
really important even something really as simple as could you pass the salt it's important because
whatever comes back when we initiate that kind of conversation has emotional gravity it's an
emotional give I'll give you an example let's say Princess Karen did say to me we sit down
(08:39):
but you know and Karen says to me could you pass the salt typically I have three options available
to me right what is I could just pass of the salt and go yeah sure he's the salt and that's the
nice thing that's the loving thing and okay I go states and and gets on with you that a second
option so I'm turning towards the second option is to turn away from her just sort of ignore her
(09:00):
and if she really wants the salt well maybe she'll ask again me as I've got to say David you know
blurks like you and I are more guilty of this response than women is what the research tells
us run and typically we're not intentional about it we're just sort of we have this experience
where maybe it's been your experience and I certainly mind where I'm so engrossed in something
(09:23):
and someone says something to me and a few brain cells in my brain go being someone just said
something to me and then the rest of my brain cells say it was important they'll say it again
we just reflect we just want to branch it off and wait till the person says it to a free time
but what we have to realize is this is frustrating for the people that we're in relationships with
(09:45):
brown children brown hearted that everybody else it's as interesting the research suggests that
women when they use that strategy at generally more intentional about it yeah that I mean
I'm ignoring you because I'm cranky with you and there was a great study that came out of
California a couple of years ago and they found that most men in that situation take
(10:09):
approximately 13 minutes to realize they're being punished but that they're being ignored and but
either way it's not a great way to respond to someone and and then of course the third option
available to us is to turn against the other person you know do you know how bad salt is for
you it's gonna harden your arteries you're the only person who uses salt around here we don't
want you get it out of the cupboard when you need it and and you know every time we communicate on
(10:34):
any level about any subject those are the three options that are available to us we concern
towards the person that's communicating with us we can turn away from them ignore them or we can
turn against them sure but I guess what we need to realize is that if you know in 99% of our
conversations are made up of the social functional sort of discussion and in in most of them if we
(10:58):
turn away or turn against the other person then really all those little conversations become a
test you know that whether we can actually have deeper conversation you know if I can't talk to
you safely about asking salt I'm never gonna talk to you about the things that are really important
to me the rings that have emotional gravity that I really worry about that I'd really like to
(11:19):
resolve I guess you know we talk about communication it's important for us to keep in mind that
everything is important every communication is important on every level every day not just the
deeper meaningful things or the tricky conversations they're all yeah yeah and it's also I mean it's
a good example about passing the salt it depends how you ask it to you could say can you pass the
(11:41):
salt in a really sort of offensive or nasty way so that your partner will know straight away you're
not in a good mood and you might suddenly put up the barriers and say no you can get your own salt
and they're on the backboard immediately right from the get-go yeah absolutely I think that's a
good point David and that and it's a and it highlights the fact that you know both people
(12:02):
actually have to take responsibility you know when we communicate the person who's raising the
issue or the topic actually has to take some responsibility for how they do that how they
express that and the person at the receiving end who's at the listening end also has to take
responsibility yeah and it's the same even with emails he can say that you receive an email saying
oh this person's not happy and yet the person who sent the email is happy but they've just
(12:24):
worded it badly hmm yeah I think we're probably all been on the receiving end of the email
oh I've got a couple yep yeah and I think that the I think the the advantage at least with email is
that I can sit on it for a while I can leave it for half a day and sort of think about how I'm
gonna bed my response and in families it's much tougher because we're right there face to face
sitting across the dinner table and and it sort of necessitates a more immediate response and
(12:48):
when I feel like defensiveness kicking it's really hard to to respond and not react yes and you can
become defensive and unnecessarily so because you might read into something that's just not there
yeah absolutely a hundred percent and I think with families there's interesting research there was
done many years ago and they found that when we communicate 55% of the message typically in just
(13:11):
a general communication is visual it's what we see with our eyes and it's got nothing to do with
our mouth or our ears 38% of the message is vocal it's our tone of voice you know the agent is
saying it and only about 7% is verbal the actual words coming out and that was research that was
done just you know on ordinary people maybe you don't know we want another and how they communicate
(13:34):
but I suspect in families that 7% gets narrower and narrower because we get really good at reading
the body language and the tone of voice of the other family members and so it's very easy to sort
of react without really actually listening to the message and hearing the big thing. No that's right
and tone is so important and just a slight inflection the wrong word and what you ask for
(13:56):
all that can have a totally different meaning really yeah absolutely yeah and interpreted a
different one yeah that's right so for couples early on in their relationship Derek how important
is it to make decisions on things like household chores who does the vacuuming who does the washing
who mows the lawns that sort of thing yeah I think you know it's it's and that's a great question
(14:18):
David because certainly what the research tells us is that that's one of the top three things that
couples argue about the most in the first five years of marriage in those really early stages
quite a workout what's the balance between you know my time your time getting chores done to work
building our families Adam how do we balance all of those things and responsibilities is really a
(14:38):
tricky journey and so I think the first thing is to be patient with themselves and with each other
that this is actually a normal challenge to sort of work through those things I guess the best
advice that I have is is to treat it as an experiment you know not to try and lock things down
to you know in stone too early in the relationship you know sometimes when couples try to work out
(15:01):
those things they sort of come to an agreement let's say for instance you know you only have to
forget the being on binda and one or two times to realize we need to make sure that the bing goes
out on the verge and so they're kind of comes to an arrangement you know what that'll be your job
you know his job with her job and and so it's your job that way we're not both trying to do it and
both of us beginning that one person's job but that's a member or a minor in their phone or whatever
(15:24):
it might be yeah and then and then somehow that sort of decision gets locked in stone sort of forever
and and I guess you know couples should really treat these things with spare as an experiment
when we come especially in early stages of this you go well let's try this and let's see if that
works for a month whatever doesn't work we'll do something different in an example now at our
(15:46):
marriage was at the very beginning of our marriage Karen would manage most of our finances and rise
where it came to you know I was the primary wager and Karen was really one who did most of
the shopping and paid bills and put money at the iron and you know and initiated conversations
about purchase a home and those things and and that was great suited me very well and I didn't
(16:08):
get too much of the work in that regard yeah but you know a few years ago as our family grew and
I was we home floor and and Karen worked with each pathologist you know she just really realized
that it was just too much on her plate to try and do that as well and sat down and I had a
conversation with Karen said look can you can you take over managing up I had to do this really
(16:31):
hard but the baby do it on my own and and I said sure that there's no problems at all and that's
what I took it over but you know it was an experiment you know and it took a little while
about six months for us to adjust to that change because I do things differently you know Karen had
a way of organizing new counts and when things look like how and what money got put aside where
to paper different things you know those rates or whatever it might be and I kind of thought okay
(16:56):
I see how Karen used to do I've kind of gonna do it a different way and and so for us just
communicating about that and adjusting to those changes I took a little bit of time and so I
was encouraged couples treated as an experiment just try things out don't lock them in stone you
know you can always come back and and and change and do things another way and that's the great
thing about being human being. Yeah it's all about negotiation isn't it? It's one of those things
(17:20):
that sometimes no right or wrong everyone has a different way of doing things and you know your
partner might have a better way of doing it and that's when that's good to open your ears and listen.
Yeah absolutely I agree. Now no one likes to be criticized we've sort of touched on this already
but isn't it often a standard response that we do put up the shutters when we're being chastised?
(17:42):
How important is it to listen to the other person's point of view?
Listening is really really important in fact it's probably one of the most powerful things
anyone can do in their relationship when it comes to communication and you know when we're
receiving criticism you're absolutely right it's really difficult to hear and the natural human
(18:03):
response almost always in any situation when we feel that we're being criticized the natural human
reaction to that is resisted we will defeat sickness we want to push back against that you
know hang on a minute you don't understand the situation or what about my feelings if you want
to sort of push back against that you know we have an innate I guess defensiveness inside of us
(18:25):
when we feel that we're being attacked in some way and so I guess the first sort of thing that we
need to do is is to really sort of learn to to resist our own reacting so that we can sort of
respond to situations that we're faced with and difficult conversations rather than just react
to them and an example would be the other night in our home we have a sort of a set
(18:46):
routine at bedtime usually Karen all that you want to go to bed all that you want to go to bed and
there's a few things that need to happen you know we feed the cat and we turn off the lights and
do the kiss and kiss goodnight and brush our teeth and we finally get into bed yeah and and so Karen
said to me you know I didn't you want to go to bed and I said yeah and I thought I'll go brush my
teeth and so I sort of walked out of the room and Karen I think thought that I just left her to do
(19:08):
everything else to you know feed the cat and kiss the kids goodnight and spend all the light off
and just like you just you just went to bed and left me to do it all and because she so she called
out and she said to me have you fed the cat now they were the words that came out of her mouth but
I could tell you right now she was not asking about the cat instantly I could feel the airs
(19:28):
go up on the back of my neck I thought you're having a go at me you just think I've just walked
off and left you to do everything around yet yeah and but when I really thought about it I
thought you know there's actually nothing more we watch you sit you know she just asked have I fed
the cat and and rather than sort of reacting and getting defensive because I thought that it was
attacking me instead I just called out and I said look no I haven't I'm just brushing my teeth and
(19:50):
I'll be back to get the cat some food in the minute and immediately the situation was disarmed
you know it and everything was fine and Karen you had just abandoned her and left her to do everything
yeah um you know I guess yeah that that is an important skill isn't it you've used the word
disarm it's so important some people do it really well some people don't but just disarming the
(20:13):
situation and calming everything down as quickly as you can hmm I think you know it's uh what we
sometimes lose sight of is that actually the person who listens in any communication has the most
power to influence and uh um you know on one level we know that's sort of in our head you know in
that if um if someone's not very good at communicating they're struggling to express how
(20:36):
they feel a really good listening can make up for that a really good listening can say you know
this is what you mean or this is what you're trying to say and to help that person to express what
they want to say um but also if a person is a really great communicator they could be the best
communicator in the world but if the other person doesn't want to listen and that's not going to work
you know nothing's going to happen there so listening and developing the skill of listening
(20:58):
is really important and it's hard to do because often we actually want to be at the other end
we're feeling frustrated because we feel that we're not getting heard um that people aren't
listening to what we're saying and yet actually if we can sort of put that on hold a little bit
and really just stop and pay attention to what the other person is saying uh and and sort of
communicate that we're hearing what they're saying then that has the greatest success of actually
(21:22):
uh softening the conversation allowing people to feel that they're being heard and understood and
for two people whether it's a parent and a child or whether it's a couple to be able to actually
really be able to hear one another and get from headway. Well it's affirming what your partner
is saying and you're not dismissing them which is just so important. Absolutely I agree Tali yeah
(21:46):
and no one lasts a bit. No no my mother I remember years ago used to accuse my father of having a
selective hearing and my father's comeback was no no I just uh going deaf that's all.
I think that won't be my parents as well that is uh significantly resisted getting a hearing aid
(22:08):
and I think that's intentional. Well even if you have a hearing aid you can turn it off I believe
so. Oh that's right yes. Oh sorry I forgot my hearing aid on. That's right it's a good excuse
but it's an excuse that'll only last the for so long really. That's right and much better to
(22:28):
have some good skills with being able to listen. Exactly right. So listening you've talked about
listening and how important it is is there anything else that you can recommend people should do
especially if they're having some sort of issues and you know it's like two people just talking
at each other rather than listening to each other is anything else you could suggest?
(22:49):
Yeah look I think there's some some simple things that that any couple can do to develop their
listening skills and interestingly they'll find that as they work on their listening skills
they'll also find that they feel like they're getting heard more as well you know that as they
listen to the other person that takes the sting out of the conversation and the other person is
more into reciprocating and hearing what they've got to say. So I guess a few things I guess the
(23:13):
first thing is that when we feel criticised we feel attacked but in a funny way criticism actually
most of the time in the family is really a request for help it's just that they have no other way of
saying it. You know if I Karen spent the whole day cleaning the lounge and then I walk in after work
and then five minutes after I arrive my shoes and my socks are lying in the middle of the floor
(23:36):
and I'm parked on the couch and she says to me you know I can't believe you have your socks on the
floor that it feels like criticism I feel defensive where she's really doing is just actually asking
for help she's just saying you know I spent the whole day cleaning up here and that probably
was after you come home you know you're closer in the middle of the floor and you know I need your
help to sort of to solve this. I think we have sort of key criticism as actually a request to help
(24:01):
it softens our response you know it's not very nice to hear it that way and certainly we react
to the body language and the tone of voice but we get to realize that since frustrated they're
trying to say something important and I can listen to that in that it takes a little bit of the sting
out of the criticism. Yeah so sort of like turning what Mike perceive initially is a negative question
(24:22):
or a negative statement into a positive just turning your whole thinking around. Absolutely
there's a story that a psychologist in the US George Gowd, George Daub sometimes is using the
past and I really quite like it it's about a two little boys and they are the most miserable
(24:42):
little boys that you can ever imagine having as a parent. They fight and they argue and they break
things and their parents have tried everything they've done everything that they can think of to try
and you know change their their children's their son's behavior and eventually they realize that
you know what we tried everything Christmas is coming and this year I think you know it's probably
(25:06):
going to be the case that Sandra is a good at visit right because their behaviors has been so bad and
so on Christmas morning these two little boys wake up and they're so excited this is the best
day of the year and they race downstairs to the Christmas tree and when they get there underneath
a Christmas tree all that there is is a pile of mule who do and yeah and the first the oldest son
(25:34):
he is heartbroken he knows that they have been the naughtiest most miserable siblings that any
parents could ever have and and this year there are no Christmas presents and he is hyper he
bursts into tears and his little brother he starts running around he's excited he goes into the back
yard he goes in the front yard he goes looking in the kitchen the laundry and everywhere else in the
(25:54):
house and and the big brother says to him says you know right there's no presents this year like
we've been too naughty and and he's uh his little brother says listen with a pile of man you were
that big there's got to be a pony here somewhere and uh but I think you know really this is actually
(26:15):
the art of really good listening you know in tough situations sometimes when we're trying to communicate
what we feel that we're receiving is actually a pile of crap you know we feel that we're just
getting a heap of manure and uh and we feel defensive about that but you know the thing
about that is that you can't have a pile of manure without a pony but almost always in our families
(26:38):
when we feel that we're getting you know a response you know or a request that seems unreasonable
it's not very nice it's difficult to hear actually the person is trying to say something
positive but they just don't have a very good way of expressing it yeah so the art of really good
listening is actually learning how to look for the pony right is that as the as this person is
(26:59):
saying this I can feel that defensive reaction inside of me and to kind of go all right this doesn't
feel very good but there is a pony here somewhere they're trying to say something positive if I can
find a way of looking for it and responding to that um you know if I have cameras as I you know
oh I can't believe you left your socks on the floor and I was to look around then I feel a bit
defensive inside I've only sat down like you know I've only been home five minutes yeah so instead
(27:23):
I look around and sort of say oh you really put some work into cleaning this room today you know
immediately this thing comes out of that conversation you know and uh and yeah it goes more smoothly
yep I guess a couple of other practical tips though one is to not interrupts uh you know
interrupting is a short fly away of showing that you're not really listening and that you're more
interested in just pushing your view on onto the other person you know and as we've talked about over
(27:50):
the course of uh of um this session just being aware of our own body language and what it's
communicating so if we're really trying to listen you know making sure we face the other person putting
the tv on mute all them you know the game aside and and giving them our full attention and I think
maybe one of the most important things that we can do is to practice checking the message you know
(28:11):
when we listen our ears are not very expressive you know so it's really hard to know if the other
person is actually really taking in what it is that we're saying yeah and and the easiest way to
to communicate that we listen in is every now and then to just put into our own words what it is that
we think that we're hearing you know to say to the other person all right I'll get you right what
(28:33):
you're saying is this or let me see is this what you're telling me that you want you know I really
encourage couples and families really get into the habit of making that a daily practice in your
life whenever you communicate or anyone communicates to you just check the message just you know
someone says oh could you get the milk just say to them you want to pick up the milk on the way on
you know they know that you've heard you've got the message you reinforce that in your own mind
(28:56):
and so you're more likely to be able to follow up on that you'll be surprised if you make a habit
of checking the message how often actually the other person will say no that's not what I'm
mean at all I'm trying to say something else and then as a couple as a family you get closer to
getting to the heart of the matter the guts of what's really going on yeah it's also really
reassuring you know when someone checks the message with us it communicates to us all right
(29:19):
they might not agree with me but at least they're trying to understand and that really helps you
know the communication yeah no no that that's a good point look I think we're almost out of time but
this communication on the subject of communication Derek is so important we're coming back for another
session and getting into some of the nitty-gritty around emotions looking forward to that oh me too
(29:43):
I think emotions are I mean really powerful and they drive our behavior they influence every
aspect of family life and I think talking about those difficult emotions and how to handle them
and how to express them is really important for healthy families looking forward to talking to you
again soon thanks Derek you too David thank you
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