June 26, 2024 • 40 mins
Can education truly be a vehicle for social change and equity? Join us on "Make the Leap" as we explore this compelling question with Ronnese McKinney, a fervent advocate for student success and social mobility. Ronnese shares her personal journey and stresses the vital need to view education as a public good, not just a commodity. We'll discuss the historical context of the GI Bill and its impact on societal views about education, while highlighting the ongoing challenges faced by marginalized groups in accessing quality education and securing well-paying jobs. Brad, Kristen and George lend their voices to this essential conversation, posing critical questions about how we can address and mitigate these disparities.
Our discussion broadens as we delve into a multifaceted approach to breaking the cycle of poverty through education. We emphasize the importance of holistic and inclusive learning that starts early, even from preschool, to better prepare students for college and careers. Students from low-income backgrounds often face unique barriers, and by focusing on personal empowerment and nurturing a belief in their potential, we can help them envision a brighter future. The conversation sheds light on the need to start career conversations early and aims to create a supportive environment where every student has the opportunity to succeed.
In the final chapter, we tackle the complex issue of equal access to quality education and the role of parental support in underserved communities. We discuss how systemic inequalities and logistical barriers, like transportation, can impede access to good schools. While emphasizing the importance of personalized learning and using available resources, we also debate the limitations of relying solely on parents to guide their children's education. Instead, we advocate for targeted support within schools, such as small class sizes and one-on-one tutoring, to level the playing field and ensure every child, regardless of background, has a fair chance at success. Join us for this thought-provoking episode and discover the steps we can take towards a more equitable education system.
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Stay up to date on Make the Leap by following us on our website, rosspodcast.com, Facebook and LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to Make the Leap, a podcast focused on the
many economic hurdles facingcollege students, lower income
individuals and those strivingto move up the social ladder.
I am Brad Constant, here withGeorge Graup and Kristen Beal.
George, let's start with you.
(00:31):
What is our topic for today?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
All right, thank you, brad.
So today we're going to talkabout education and education as
a factor when it comes tosocial change.
I think most Americans agreethat education is the main
gateway for many people to getaccess to better job, better
opportunities.
I think most Americans wouldalso agree that all kids deserve
(00:56):
that opportunity.
And then there is a generalbelief, I think, in our country
that America is a land ofopportunity.
The data, though, sometimessuggests otherwise.
Many kids really struggle.
Many low-income childrenconsiderably have a difficult
time obtaining good careers,high-paying job, decent-paying
job.
(01:16):
In adulthood, less than 1 in 13children that are born into
poverty in the US will go tohold a decent-paying job.
That are born into poverty inthe US will go to hold a decent
paying job.
You know, the odds are evenmore difficult if you happen to
be a black man, where it is oneout of 40 to have access to a
decent job.
So this topic isn't new to us.
We've spent considerable timeon this podcast dealing with the
(01:38):
challenges that many people inpoverty deal with day in and day
out as they try to fight theirway out of poverty.
So that's our topic today.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Thanks, george.
This is a topic that's near anddear to the Ross mission, so
I'm excited to talk about it Now.
Before we introduce our guest,I'm excited to introduce our new
fellow host, kristen BealGeorge and I loved talking with
her so much that we decided tobring her on and have her join
us as a co-host.
Kristen, thanks for joining usas a host.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Oh gosh, thank you.
I'm so excited to be part ofthe podcast as a host.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Awesome.
So who do we have the pleasureof chatting with today?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We have Renice.
Renice has been with Ross forover 10 years, working both in
admissions and currently as astudent services director.
She's passionate about studentsuccess and social mobility and
the role of education in that.
Fun fact, she also has a smallpodcast that she does with her
sister called hey Sis a GirlTalk podcast.
(02:37):
Renise, thanks for joining ustoday.
How?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
are you?
Thank you so much, Kristen.
I'm well.
Congratulations on joining Bradand George.
That's amazing.
I am so excited to be here withyou guys today.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
All right, so we'll start with the kind of the
baseline question, renice, youknow, how does education bring
about social change?
And maybe talk about your ownpersonal experiences along the
way.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Absolutely.
Education providesopportunities that otherwise
would not be available to two ofthe social groups that I
personally belong to.
I'm a Black woman right, andhistorically women and people of
color didn't have formaleducation readily available to
them prior to the women's rightsmovement and the emancipation
of African-Americans.
(03:25):
So education provides a chancefor the underserved, even with
the caste system honestly stillbeing in place and operational,
so it helps us to be able toprovide for ourselves and our
families.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So one of the things that I was debating about a
title for this podcast, and Ijust I called it.
I think I sent it to Brad thismorning.
It says education for socialchange.
Is money the fix or, I'm sorry,is money the curse or the cure?
And one of the issues as wetalk through this and I'm going
to maybe start it right off thebat especially in terms of
(04:01):
education, but you can probablytake it across the board, like
healthcare or other really key,important issues but one of the
areas I've always kind of lookedat is the GI Bill and I want to
just kind of put some contextaround it and maybe give you a
little bit of a opportunity toweigh in.
You know, in World War I, whenthe US soldiers came home, there
(04:22):
was really nothing for them todo.
They were promised a bonus.
They never got the bonus, sothey kind of marched on DC
trying to collect their money.
Government at that point calledthe army to come out and try to
slow their march or deal withthem.
Fast forward that to World WarII.
9 million soldiers come home andthe government at that point
thinks well, let's do somethingfor them in terms of jobs, in
(04:45):
terms of education, in terms ofhousing, in terms of health care
, and it was probably one of themore expansive thing.
(05:12):
The government viewed helpingthem as a public good.
It was no longer.
You know we're doing thisbecause of this.
It did it from a very selfishreason, which is we are better
off with these soldiers cominghome to have jobs, have training
.
You didn't want 9 millionpeople walking around with
nothing to do right.
So, as you think about what youjust said two minutes ago and
we talk about money and lack ofmoney, is money good or bad?
(05:35):
And I have a few more opinionson this.
Is it, from your end of it,like education a public good, or
is education something thatneeds to be in the marketplace?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I believe that education is a public good.
I come from a family ofeducators, actually, and so that
is our way to give back to ourcommunities and in service,
being able to offer somethingthat can help someone better
themselves is most certainly.
(06:07):
It's a human right.
We all come out naturally aswe're born as explorers.
We are here to learn.
It's instinctively in us.
So, yeah, it's definitelysomething that should be
available and not something forthe marketplace.
We all have the right toincrease our knowledge base.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I wanted to ask a question.
Access to this qualityeducation has historically been
unequal, perpetuating theseexisting social hierarchies and,
I think, really limiting socialmobility.
What steps do you envision thatcould be taken to address equal
access to quality education?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
More people with Georgia's vision.
Those who have the actualaccess and the ability to
provide the education have tohave the vision to give it to
those who are in need of it.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
And perhaps even remove the barriers to that as
well.
From someone like George'sperspective, it's easier.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I mean, there's an element to this that most people
agree to, which is like we wantour kids, regardless of their
background, regardless of theircolor, to have good education.
I think the disagreementsometimes is how do we do that
Like, how do we accomplishgetting access and I know
sometimes this gets into, youknow, a little bit of a some
maybe political discussionscompared to school system or K
(07:45):
through 12 in I don't know,you're in the Detroit area,
we'll say maybe like WestBloomfield Hills or whatever
town you want to use.
You know this is not really thesame educational opportunity.
It's like a two fully blownseparate system.
How do we manage through that?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
That's a tough question, honestly.
It's going to take the breakingof the system, honestly, and
again, it's going to come fromthose decision makers.
We do have some charter systemsthat are popping up and being
created that can providealternative education for
families that do live in innercities like Detroit and other
(08:22):
areas where public educationjust is not where it should be.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
What drives that Like ?
I mean, if you look in terms ofpublic school system in Detroit
, what do you think inherentlyputs it at a disadvantage?
Is it lack of resources?
What do you think the biggestfactor that makes it so
difficult to provide kids inthis neighborhood a good school?
Speaker 4 (08:48):
There is a lot of emphasis placed on standardized
testing.
Still, there's a lot ofemphasis placed on attendance
requirements being met, studentpopulations being held and
administrators are, of course,wanting to hold to those metrics
so that they can be seen assuccessful.
And that is kind of pushingthrough the cycle where less
(09:16):
qualified teachers are put inclassrooms, where lower
socioeconomic communities areserved, and there is honestly a
thought process because I'veworked in some of these school
systems that these kids are notused to anything other than this
.
So it's okay to perpetuate thisin an educational institution.
And again, those in power haveto start having these
(09:39):
conversations and be willing toreally take a deep look at what
education looks like now versuswhat it looked like 20, 30, 40
years ago.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
I know these topics are hard, but what do you think
in terms of parents being incontrol of where their kids go
to school, you know, versusschool system that are set up by
boundaries artificialboundaries sometimes that is
limited by, you know, geography,resources or whatever I mean?
What's your thought about, youknow, if I don't want my kid to
(10:09):
go to school, I should be ableto take him to whatever other
school I want to take it to.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
So I am that parent.
My son grew up in the city ofDetroit until high school and I
sent him to a charter schoolthat I had to drive 45 miles, 45
minutes away from our home,because I wanted my child to
have a quality education and Ifeel like that should be every
parent's choice.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
How do you feel, Renice, about?
I heard you talk about fundingand about the resources that go
to the public schools, forexample, but talk to me a little
bit about improving collegereadiness.
So if we have a group of apopulation that is focusing on
their mobility and the future,what kind of ways can we empower
(10:57):
public schools to work on that?
Speaker 4 (11:01):
I think providing the understanding that education is
no longer just teaching in aclassroom right, it's a whole
social, holistic thing, that wehave to meet each person
individually where they're atand really be able to gauge that
right where that individualstudent is, so that you can help
them to make the steps forsuccess make the steps for
(11:27):
success.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Up until now I've heard some key words that really
lit the light bulb in my head.
You said cycle multiple times.
I have an interesting stat here.
It's kind of heartbreaking, butover one in three children born
around 1980 in the US who grewup in households with incomes
near or below the poverty lineremained in low-income
households when they were intheir 30s.
That is just the cycle ofintergenerational poverty.
How does education impactintergenerational poverty?
(11:52):
And then a follow-up is canhigher education and vocational
training, like we provide hereat Ross, can that improve the
chances of upward mobility?
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Ross has a unique approach to education where we
are able to meet each individualstudent, and I think that's
what's going to be needed movingforward for other educational
institutions, and I do believeholistic learning is becoming a
more trend.
My sister works for one of theuniversities here in Michigan
and she's going to conferencesabout holistic education and
(12:22):
being able to have inclusivityin classrooms and on campus.
So I do believe that educationis definitely a key factor to
breaking intergenerationalpoverty.
But one of the things that'sgoing to have to take place, and
one of the barriers that we seehere, even at Ross, is when you
have a student who comes from afamily where education has not
(12:46):
been a priority, it can honestlybe seen as something negative.
So a lot of times we're havingto get to the parents just to be
able to help the students.
I've had to have manyconversations especially when I
was in admissions, with parentsto help them to understand that
this is something that can helpyour child not be in the space
(13:06):
that you were in when you weretheir age, and that's a hard
conversation to have with aparent, and so Ross has an
approach that makes education alot less intimidating, because a
lot of times, especially if you, in your educational journey,
have been someone who's beentold you can't do this or there
are limits to what you can do,education becomes something that
(13:29):
really is scary and can bringon anxiety.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I wanted to extend this same topic because I'm
training today a new person inadmissions and one of the things
that we begin with in thatfirst week of training focuses
on having a conversation aboutthe career or the end game where
their sights are on.
When we first start talking tothem and one of the things I
(13:52):
explained to this person isabout you may be the very first
person that has ever gotten thatstudent to verbalize what the
outcome is that they hope toattain, to give them a
commitment enough to complete itand begin working in that
career.
So how can we start thatconversation sooner, Like in
(14:16):
schools?
Is that through careercounseling at the high school
level?
Or what kind of ways can webegin that conversation earlier?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Honestly, I think it should start immediately when a
child is in school.
From preschool on, themessaging should be you can do
whatever you want to do.
You can be who you want to be.
Your future is your future.
So it needs to start.
Those conversations need tostart as early as possible and
that messaging needs to beconsistent.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
You know I started the conversation, you know,
talking about getting out ofpoverty, making, getting through
college, getting a collegedegree, making money.
And I think you've spent timetalking about the different part
of education, thetransformative part of education
, which is believe in yourself,dream big, think of the big
(15:08):
ideas that you have for yourfuture.
Be around people who thinkdifferently, who are going to
give you a networkingopportunity that will instill
some of that confidence and someof that feeling better about
yourself and about your future.
And I think that's the pointthat people sometimes mess when
we trap our students in a box orstudents from low poverty, from
(15:29):
low income area.
We trap them in a box and theydon't get exposed to these ideas
or they don't expose to adifferent group of people,
different group of thoughts.
But it's not easy to ask peopleto dream big, renice right,
like I've had students who wouldsay, if I tell my husband I'm
going to school, he's going totake the car away from me and so
how do?
How do we, how do we get thatmessage out that it's okay to
(15:53):
strive for success, to thinkabout yourself and have bigger
dream for yourself?
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I have these conversations daily, on a daily
basis.
It's unfortunate, but it's true.
A lot of times, when a studentfinds themselves in a mindset of
wanting to do better andactually taking those steps,
those around them do things thatwill create barriers, and so
when I sit a student down, ofcourse I take in and I receive
(16:21):
everything that's going on rightwho the challenges are, who is
not their cheerleader, and thatthey expected to be their
cheerleader, right.
And then I remind them that noone, no matter what role they
play in your life, gets todecide what your journey looks
like, whether it's a husband,whether it's a parent, whether
it's a sibling or a friend.
We are all individual humanbeings and we all get to decide
(16:46):
who we are.
We are not who someone elsesays we are.
We are who we say we are.
So changing that inner dialogue.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And the flip side of that, maybe not necessarily the
other side of that why do theysometimes, or you or other
students at Ross, feel aloneLike what's the driver, where
they think they're fighting anuphill battle Society?
Speaker 4 (17:09):
has set it up that way, you know, sometimes just
walking outside, it smacks themin the face.
Oftentimes our students, youknow, are lacking things that we
take for granted Right, and solife is constantly telling them
you can't do this, you don'tdeserve this, and they have to
(17:30):
make sure that they can committo this for themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Do you think we make it just simply harder for them?
There's like, like it's.
It's it takes a mountain ofpaperwork to get snap right, to
get a, to get assistance.
It's like you have to provethat you're poor.
Like, well, you know, the IRSgot all my data.
Why do I have to prove that Iam poor, you know?
I mean, do you think we justlike, put them through a process
where we just suck humanity outof them?
(17:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
And I think that's intentional.
I think that's the way thesystem is set up.
It is set up to make itchallenging for you to get to
this thing, that now we'veconvinced you that you need to
survive and I'm going to makesure that you continue to have
to jump through hoops, tocontinue the support to the
point where you feel as if thisis the only support I'll ever
get.
(18:18):
I've gone through all of this.
I might as well stick thisroute out.
I might as well stick thisroute out and a lot of the
stories that I hear from mystudents and conversations.
I have to take a five minutebreak after while I've kept on
you know the good face and I'vesmiled and I've encouraged and
I've empathized.
It breaks my heart.
So things that have becomenormalized for our students and
(18:42):
they can just say in a veryflippant way I think all of that
is because it started out withthem being in a system that had
them work hard to prove thatthey were less than so maybe the
second part of the podcast wetalk about, maybe potential
solutions.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know what are the things that we can do.
You know again, I started totalk about money.
What are things that we can do.
You know again I started totalk about money.
So the US spends the mostamount of money on education,
beyond a small country in Europecalled Luxembourg.
So we are the highest spendingalmost $20,000 per student per
year that we spend on education.
(19:21):
Where does that money go Like?
When I look at it?
And we spend 6.6% of our GDP oneducation.
So we clearly put a lot ofmoney and effort, but many of
the schools that are servinglow-income students do not have
anywhere near the resources thatother schools have.
(19:41):
How can you fix this if oneschool has two to three times
the resources of the school thatis across the street?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I think one of those solutions is breaking down that
barrier and allowing parents tochoose where their students go
to school, because it is obvious, like you said, the funding is
going to the West Bloomfields,the, you know, the East Point
schools and those higher taxbracket communities.
Right, that's where the fundingis going, and so allowing
(20:13):
parents to be able to selectwhat school and what school
district that their students canattend will help to break some
of that.
And I will continue to say, thedecision makers nothing is
going to change until those whomake the decisions change the
way that they make those choices.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
What do you say to somebody who would say I can't
do the 45 minute drive?
You know I cannot take my kidto a school in a safer
neighborhood.
I got to take two buses to goto work.
Why shouldn't I have a safe,good school in my neighborhood,
like the people across thestreet?
Speaker 4 (21:06):
that's a great question, george um, but I will
start with this.
What I would say to that parentwho and that's a viable
response, right I cannot drivemy child 45 minutes away to go
to school.
I can't afford thattransportation and what that
looks like.
That is absolutely reasonable.
To that parent I would say okay, then I need you to do your due
(21:26):
diligence with supplementaleducation.
There are programs out there.
Technology has provided awealth of information.
By the time my child was inhigh school, he was in like
college level courses.
I was lost in his math classes.
I utilized the internet andevery resource I could find.
There are free programs outthere.
(21:48):
So I would just say utilize theresources that you can find in
an area that is conducive towhat you need right For your
lifestyle, for your family.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
But it's going to take more than just sending them
to school, for your lifestyle,for your family, but it's going
to take more than just sendingthem to school.
The admissions team is just it'sstarting an admissions blog and
it's really to focus on sharingexpertise and real life
experiences on how to improvecustomer service to our students
on that front end, and one ofthe pieces that well, the very
(22:22):
first post in that blog is aboutthe decision-making process for
the adult student, and I thinkthis is really appropriate here.
Is that skill or the ability towalk through and make a decision
about number one what kind ofcareer do you want?
But also, what can I do?
That is the best solution forme and right where I am right
(22:46):
now.
So is that driving the 45 milesto drop my kid off or is that
finding other resources that areavailable, but to do the very
best that you can and, of course, being accountable and
responsible for it?
I hear you talking about thatand I think is that something
that can also be done orincluded in social, emotional
(23:06):
skill building and curriculumslike those state standards that
require that?
I mean, I see it invaluable,but maybe my learning experience
was different.
I didn't learn that stuff tillI was in my 40s, really.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
So you know, absolutely, kristen.
I honestly think that that'sone of the reasons that
inability or not understandingof self right, when you're in a
certain lifestyle and in acertain cultural group there is
actually a lot of culturalgroups, right.
Assimilation can be a part ofour society, right, and whatever
(23:43):
group you are in, right.
And so a lack of self,unfortunately, or knowledge of
self, is one of those thingsthat does come.
That, I found, was working withlower socioeconomic students
and families.
So that is why we do havestudents who have gone to seven
different schools, right, why wehave unusual enrollment history
(24:04):
, because they don't even havethe understanding that I don't
know myself enough to even askmyself what's going to work best
for me.
College is college, right.
School is school.
Who's ever asked me what typeof learner I am?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So how about I give that a try, like what works best
for them?
And this is not necessarilybecause I've walked in their
shoes, but this is just becauseI've been in education for so
long and I've seen so many sidesof it.
But here's my shot.
Let me take my shot at this.
You know, education should be apublic good.
(24:42):
It shouldn't be driven by whohas more money, who has bigger
house, who's got the bigger taxbase.
Small classes matter.
If you allow these kids to goto school with a limited number
of students per teacher, itliterally makes a difference.
Whether you're teaching fivemakes a huge difference.
If you're teaching 22, rightAccess to special ed really
(25:06):
makes a difference.
It is like asking teacherssometimes to do something with
one hand tied behind their back.
(25:27):
So I think the parents have aresponsibility, but that
responsibility becomes very,very difficult if they got to
climb a mountain every day totry to get their kids when
somebody similar to them doesn'thave to do that right.
Get their kids when, whensomebody similar to them doesn't
have to do that right, they canjust walk their kid, walk their
kid to school.
And so I think there areelements that, as as a society,
(25:50):
that we can do to make it easier, and it's really starts with
providing that.
You talked about it earlier alittle bit of a?
A.
We take this very draconianapproach to holding student back
, you know, trying to keep them,and then suddenly you're six,
seven inches taller than thekids next to you.
All of this stuff has an impactthat if you don't deal with it,
(26:13):
regardless of what that parentdoes, it's a lose-lose.
I shared that statistics, Ithink, on our last time, I think
on Saturday.
I think on our last time, Ithink on Saturday.
If you're a kid with bad gradesand your parents are rich, you
have a 70% chance to graduatecollege and make money, and if
you're a kid from a poor familywith great grades, you have 30%
(26:38):
chance to graduate college andmake a good living.
Those are not good odds, youknow if you live in poverty.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Absolutely.
When you made that statement,that's when you caught my
attention I was like, okay,george has got me, because you
understood, like you got it andyou made it clear that our
mission is to bridge that gap.
You're absolutely right, andthat is a high mountain to climb
.
It is going to take for parentsto be educated, for school
(27:10):
systems to be willing to makeadjustments to the way that they
are providing educations, forstate educational departments to
be able to provide resourcesequally amongst all of the
districts.
So there's a lot of differentsteps and a lot of different
things in play that it will taketo really, really really create
(27:33):
equality in education.
But I think that in reality,right now, today, what a parent
can do is just really take theirchild's education into their
own hands.
But the challenge comes whenyou are talking about
intergenerational poverty or afamily that has not made
(27:53):
education a priority is that theparent may want that for their
child and again, they have noidea how to know, no idea how to
advocate or who to advocate to.
So I think that maybe we needsome more additional educational
opportunities available toparents of young kids to help
them to provide additionalsupport to their children.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I have seen research, but it's been quite a while
since I investigated this, butit was looking at after-school
programs for K-12 that are not.
They're on community building,but they're focused on the
parents and the family as agroup instead of just the
student.
So the student is notresponsible for passing or
(28:39):
failing.
The family is responsible foreach making their contribution
to support the success of theirchild and student to succeed.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
But let me argue that point though.
So if my parents are screwed upand I'll use me personally do I
have to be screwed up as well?
Right, I mean sometimes when wemake that argument that we got
to get the parents to a certainlevel, like my parents have
always wanted better for me thanfor them.
But if they're totally, totallymessed up, does that mean now I
(29:10):
have to be also totally messedup?
And I think that's really whereI take issue.
Like I think we have anobligation to help these kids
break that intergenerationalpoverty and not just say, hey,
you know, your parents got to dothis and we'll do this.
What if the parents doesn'twant to do this?
Then what happened to that kid?
They're totally screwed andthey have no opportunity.
(29:32):
Like, I am all for longer days,I'm all for longer school year.
I think all that makes sense,but I am more on the providing
the kid, when they're in school,a small class size, mentoring,
one-on-one tutoring, access tospecial education programs,
because you just can't dependthat the parent, who's doing two
(29:54):
jobs or is could be a drug user, could be single mom that's
doing 16 different things tryingto keep her family afloat.
Now she's got to also becomesemi-teacher.
I don't know.
I think that's just the bridgetoo far.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
And I can receive that argument.
I was formerly a single mother,so I know what it is like to be
a single mom, working two jobsto provide for my child.
But I also know that as someonewho wants better for your child
, right.
I too came from a family myparents wanted better for me
than they had and I want thesame for my child.
But I understand that that'sgoing to also take some work for
(30:33):
me.
There has to be someaccountability for that child's
success.
It can't be left all the way upto the educational institution
and then if you have a studentwho has gone through and hasn't
gotten that support in theireducational environments, that's
where programs like Ross comeinto play, because then we're
getting the adult learner thatwe are able to kind of take into
our fold and we can kind ofhelp them navigate through this
(30:56):
new journey.
But we all need support andtypically we search for it from
our family unit.
So I think that it is importantthat families do play a key
role in success for our students, especially when they're in the
lower grades.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
I'm not going to go back and forth, but I am going
to go back and forth on this one.
I think if you have asupportive family, you hit the
jackpot.
If you have a supportive momwho's willing to juggle multiple
jobs, I think God bless you.
You're doing all that you can.
In the 1990s we put a millionblack men in jail.
You know these kids are growingup in a very, very challenging,
(31:36):
difficult environment.
The argument is that justbecause the parents are
uninvolved or they're going toneglect their child, that the
kid has to repeat the history ofthe parents, that they are
condemned to follow the route ofthe mom or the dad or whatever
(31:57):
it is.
And I do believe that schoolshave a role to play, even for
the kids that do not have thefamily support and they do not
have the stability at homebecause otherwise they have no
shot.
I mean they've got zero.
They already have, like I said,the one out of 40, what's that
like two and a half percent?
I mean, if you are a youngblack boy, the odds are so
(32:19):
stacked up against you to beginwith, and the single, the family
unit, might be there, but itmight not be there.
And if it's not there, you'rescrewed.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
No, you're right, because I do recognize that
school is oftentimes a safespace for students.
I really do.
I know that sometimes it'swhere they get their meals, it's
where they have someone saykind words to them.
They get their meals it's wherethey have someone say kind
words to them.
It's the one consistent thing,right, because a lot of times
families are very transient andthey move a lot and things are
(32:51):
not stable.
So I do understand that.
No, I do embrace that schoolcan definitely be a safe space
for our students.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
So I'm going to jump in and provide a little bit
different lens into this.
So my wife has been a teacherup until we had triplets.
She taught three yearsinterstate Detroit in a charter
and then we moved and she taught10 years, fourth grade.
With that.
There is points for both sidesof this argument here.
When you look at it from theteacher perspective, or from my
perspective as the spouse of theteacher, seeing how all of
(33:22):
these classrooms are way too big.
There are parents who areengaged.
There are parents who are notengaged.
Maybe I'm playing peacemakerhere.
There is a need for the parentsbeing involved, but we also
have to get the funding to bemore equal, because my wife, her
smallest class, was 29 studentsand that was a breeze compared
(33:43):
to 32 or 33.
And she was seeing studentswith parents who were highly
engaged.
These are the students who noware graduating and they're
getting, you know, accepted tothe college of their choice.
There's also the students whoare not getting any parent
support, in which, thankfully,in that district there was the
structure to come in and supportthe student, but that's not
something that happens.
(34:03):
In that district there was thestructure to come in and support
the student, but that's notsomething that happens in every
district.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
But I am all for family support, like I'm not
saying necessarily that itdoesn't matter, it absolutely
matters, but it matters normallybecause either you have the
resources or you have the parentthat is willing to do it.
But then there is a segment ofour kids who do not have a
willing parent or the parentdoesn't have the resources, and
(34:28):
that's really where I think westill have that responsibility
to provide the best effortpossible, which is small
classrooms, one-on-one tutoring,one-on-one help, special ed
access, longer school days,longer school year, to provide
these kids the opportunity toplay catch up, because they've
(34:50):
got a long climb ahead of them.
And I don't necessarily knowhow you would.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
If you wait on some parents, you're never going to
get there, and I see it everyday while they're trying to do
two jobs or whatever they needto do to just keep food on the
table yeah, and I see that, I dosee your argument now that
(35:19):
there is that, that's that groupof students who, you're right,
do not have a parent or aguardian that is either willing
or able to even start theprocess of learning how to
advocate.
And that is where, yeah, you'reright, we would need the
schools themselves to step inand provide that support to
students who did not have anytype of support readily
(35:41):
available, whether it wasbecause the parent was unwilling
or unable.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
So yeah, I do see that argument.
When you're getting a smallclassroom, when you're getting
tutoring, when you're gettingmentoring, when you're getting
help when you need it, at leastyou give these kids slightly
better odds than being one outof 29.
I don't know it really.
Healthcare and education wehave two separate systems and we
can say anything we want to say.
(36:12):
We can deny it, we can say no,we're in a land of opportunity.
There's no data that says we'rea land of opportunity.
We're a land of opportunity forsome, but not for others.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
My perspective is both of those systems operate in
the from the negativeperspective many times.
I mean, I really think thatthat vision needs to be changed,
because we only approve testsand health care that are are
paid for, compensated for byinsurance companies.
Not necessarily what's right,maybe perhaps for the patient or
(36:46):
in school, we know we give themall equal instruction and we
have a teacher, that all theteachers have been trained the
same, but, um again, they livein this neighborhood so we don't
have a good tax base.
So you know, it all comes seemsto come from the negative
instead of the optimistic or thepositive side.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Because because we monetize education and we
monetize health care Right.
So now we put a value on goodeducation which costs X amount
of dollars, and we immediatelyexclude everybody else that
can't afford it.
And that's the hard, that's thechallenge of being in this
industry for so long.
I started my first job at aprivate school.
(37:29):
That was mostly for rich kidswho wanted to go skiing, so
going to college for them wasreally not a big deal.
It was just dad wrote the checkand all was good, or mom, I
guess, wrote the check and allis good.
And then you land for a whilein the for-profit sector and
you're like you know this lookscompletely different.
They have no money, noresources, no nothing.
(37:50):
And it really kind of hits youin the face that we basically
now have put a price tag on goodeducation and good health care.
If you can afford it, you'regood, If you can't afford it,
good luck.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Absolutely.
One of the things that mysister and I have been talking
about here lately is that wehave the heart for the people,
but the industry that we are inhas now been converted into big
business.
Education is big business atthis point right, and it's
probably one of the moreprofitable businesses in the US.
(38:25):
If I'm being honest, that'sgoing to be a hard cycle to
break.
You're talking about big moneyfor those who are getting it
right now.
People don't want to let go oftheir comfort.
So again, like I said earlier,what will change actually look
like, and I think that's whythere's hesitation to actually
make real progress.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Well, I don't necessarily see any progress
till the elementary school andthe K through 12s fixed.
Like you know, till we givethese kids a fair chance,
they're they're always therethere's.
I will wrap this up becausethis has been on such a negative
tone podcast.
Sorry about it, but there was amovie way back called um
waiting for Superman.
(39:07):
It was about this group ofcharter schools.
I think one was in New York,was in DC about these parents
trying to get their kids andthey sit there in a lottery.
They're waiting for their kidsto get into the school.
I don't care what political sideyou come from If you don't
watch that movie and start tocry because you're watching
these parents on the edge oftheir seat just praying for
(39:31):
their kids to get selected inthat lottery so they can get
pulled out of that school thathe's in and go to a school that
they wanted to get in.
It literally breaks your heartthat this is what parents have
to go to to get their kids in asafer school, in a better school
.
It truly breaks your heart.
Renice, I know we went all overthe place here, but thank you
(39:54):
for doing this.
Speaker 4 (39:55):
I know we went all over the place here, but thank
you for doing this.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and conversations
like these are so needed.
I thank you for giving me anopportunity to talk with you
guys today.
This was awesome, even thoughyou're right, it was a little
negative, but it's a hardconversation to have.
Yeah, I think we did a greatjob of showing all sides of it
and we kept it as positive as ahard conversation can be.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Well, thank you.
So platform of your choice tolisten to past episodes, as well
as subscribe, so you never missa future episode.
We hope you join us two weeksfrom now for our next episode as
we discuss punishing the poor,navigating the financial aid
process for low-income students.
See you then, thank you.
Welcome to Make the Leap, a podcast focused on the
many economic hurdles facingcollege students, lower income
individuals and those strivingto move up the social ladder.
I am Brad Constant, here withGeorge Graup and Kristen Beal.
George, let's start with you.
(00:31):
What is our topic for today?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
All right, thank you, brad.
So today we're going to talkabout education and education as
a factor when it comes tosocial change.
I think most Americans agreethat education is the main
gateway for many people to getaccess to better job, better
opportunities.
I think most Americans wouldalso agree that all kids deserve
(00:56):
that opportunity.
And then there is a generalbelief, I think, in our country
that America is a land ofopportunity.
The data, though, sometimessuggests otherwise.
Many kids really struggle.
Many low-income childrenconsiderably have a difficult
time obtaining good careers,high-paying job, decent-paying
job.
(01:16):
In adulthood, less than 1 in 13children that are born into
poverty in the US will go tohold a decent-paying job.
That are born into poverty inthe US will go to hold a decent
paying job.
You know, the odds are evenmore difficult if you happen to
be a black man, where it is oneout of 40 to have access to a
decent job.
So this topic isn't new to us.
We've spent considerable timeon this podcast dealing with the
(01:38):
challenges that many people inpoverty deal with day in and day
out as they try to fight theirway out of poverty.
So that's our topic today.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Thanks, george.
This is a topic that's near anddear to the Ross mission, so
I'm excited to talk about it Now.
Before we introduce our guest,I'm excited to introduce our new
fellow host, kristen BealGeorge and I loved talking with
her so much that we decided tobring her on and have her join
us as a co-host.
Kristen, thanks for joining usas a host.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Oh gosh, thank you.
I'm so excited to be part ofthe podcast as a host.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Awesome.
So who do we have the pleasureof chatting with today?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We have Renice.
Renice has been with Ross forover 10 years, working both in
admissions and currently as astudent services director.
She's passionate about studentsuccess and social mobility and
the role of education in that.
Fun fact, she also has a smallpodcast that she does with her
sister called hey Sis a GirlTalk podcast.
(02:37):
Renise, thanks for joining ustoday.
How?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
are you?
Thank you so much, Kristen.
I'm well.
Congratulations on joining Bradand George.
That's amazing.
I am so excited to be here withyou guys today.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
All right, so we'll start with the kind of the
baseline question, renice, youknow, how does education bring
about social change?
And maybe talk about your ownpersonal experiences along the
way.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Absolutely.
Education providesopportunities that otherwise
would not be available to two ofthe social groups that I
personally belong to.
I'm a Black woman right, andhistorically women and people of
color didn't have formaleducation readily available to
them prior to the women's rightsmovement and the emancipation
of African-Americans.
(03:25):
So education provides a chancefor the underserved, even with
the caste system honestly stillbeing in place and operational,
so it helps us to be able toprovide for ourselves and our
families.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So one of the things that I was debating about a
title for this podcast, and Ijust I called it.
I think I sent it to Brad thismorning.
It says education for socialchange.
Is money the fix or, I'm sorry,is money the curse or the cure?
And one of the issues as wetalk through this and I'm going
to maybe start it right off thebat especially in terms of
(04:01):
education, but you can probablytake it across the board, like
healthcare or other really key,important issues but one of the
areas I've always kind of lookedat is the GI Bill and I want to
just kind of put some contextaround it and maybe give you a
little bit of a opportunity toweigh in.
You know, in World War I, whenthe US soldiers came home, there
(04:22):
was really nothing for them todo.
They were promised a bonus.
They never got the bonus, sothey kind of marched on DC
trying to collect their money.
Government at that point calledthe army to come out and try to
slow their march or deal withthem.
Fast forward that to World WarII.
9 million soldiers come home andthe government at that point
thinks well, let's do somethingfor them in terms of jobs, in
(04:45):
terms of education, in terms ofhousing, in terms of health care
, and it was probably one of themore expansive thing.
(05:12):
The government viewed helpingthem as a public good.
It was no longer.
You know we're doing thisbecause of this.
It did it from a very selfishreason, which is we are better
off with these soldiers cominghome to have jobs, have training
.
You didn't want 9 millionpeople walking around with
nothing to do right.
So, as you think about what youjust said two minutes ago and
we talk about money and lack ofmoney, is money good or bad?
(05:35):
And I have a few more opinionson this.
Is it, from your end of it,like education a public good, or
is education something thatneeds to be in the marketplace?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I believe that education is a public good.
I come from a family ofeducators, actually, and so that
is our way to give back to ourcommunities and in service,
being able to offer somethingthat can help someone better
themselves is most certainly.
(06:07):
It's a human right.
We all come out naturally aswe're born as explorers.
We are here to learn.
It's instinctively in us.
So, yeah, it's definitelysomething that should be
available and not something forthe marketplace.
We all have the right toincrease our knowledge base.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I wanted to ask a question.
Access to this qualityeducation has historically been
unequal, perpetuating theseexisting social hierarchies and,
I think, really limiting socialmobility.
What steps do you envision thatcould be taken to address equal
access to quality education?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
More people with Georgia's vision.
Those who have the actualaccess and the ability to
provide the education have tohave the vision to give it to
those who are in need of it.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
And perhaps even remove the barriers to that as
well.
From someone like George'sperspective, it's easier.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I mean, there's an element to this that most people
agree to, which is like we wantour kids, regardless of their
background, regardless of theircolor, to have good education.
I think the disagreementsometimes is how do we do that
Like, how do we accomplishgetting access and I know
sometimes this gets into, youknow, a little bit of a some
maybe political discussionscompared to school system or K
(07:45):
through 12 in I don't know,you're in the Detroit area,
we'll say maybe like WestBloomfield Hills or whatever
town you want to use.
You know this is not really thesame educational opportunity.
It's like a two fully blownseparate system.
How do we manage through that?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
That's a tough question, honestly.
It's going to take the breakingof the system, honestly, and
again, it's going to come fromthose decision makers.
We do have some charter systemsthat are popping up and being
created that can providealternative education for
families that do live in innercities like Detroit and other
(08:22):
areas where public educationjust is not where it should be.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
What drives that Like ?
I mean, if you look in terms ofpublic school system in Detroit
, what do you think inherentlyputs it at a disadvantage?
Is it lack of resources?
What do you think the biggestfactor that makes it so
difficult to provide kids inthis neighborhood a good school?
Speaker 4 (08:48):
There is a lot of emphasis placed on standardized
testing.
Still, there's a lot ofemphasis placed on attendance
requirements being met, studentpopulations being held and
administrators are, of course,wanting to hold to those metrics
so that they can be seen assuccessful.
And that is kind of pushingthrough the cycle where less
(09:16):
qualified teachers are put inclassrooms, where lower
socioeconomic communities areserved, and there is honestly a
thought process because I'veworked in some of these school
systems that these kids are notused to anything other than this
.
So it's okay to perpetuate thisin an educational institution.
And again, those in power haveto start having these
(09:39):
conversations and be willing toreally take a deep look at what
education looks like now versuswhat it looked like 20, 30, 40
years ago.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
I know these topics are hard, but what do you think
in terms of parents being incontrol of where their kids go
to school, you know, versusschool system that are set up by
boundaries artificialboundaries sometimes that is
limited by, you know, geography,resources or whatever I mean?
What's your thought about, youknow, if I don't want my kid to
(10:09):
go to school, I should be ableto take him to whatever other
school I want to take it to.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
So I am that parent.
My son grew up in the city ofDetroit until high school and I
sent him to a charter schoolthat I had to drive 45 miles, 45
minutes away from our home,because I wanted my child to
have a quality education and Ifeel like that should be every
parent's choice.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
How do you feel, Renice, about?
I heard you talk about fundingand about the resources that go
to the public schools, forexample, but talk to me a little
bit about improving collegereadiness.
So if we have a group of apopulation that is focusing on
their mobility and the future,what kind of ways can we empower
(10:57):
public schools to work on that?
Speaker 4 (11:01):
I think providing the understanding that education is
no longer just teaching in aclassroom right, it's a whole
social, holistic thing, that wehave to meet each person
individually where they're atand really be able to gauge that
right where that individualstudent is, so that you can help
them to make the steps forsuccess make the steps for
(11:27):
success.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Up until now I've heard some key words that really
lit the light bulb in my head.
You said cycle multiple times.
I have an interesting stat here.
It's kind of heartbreaking, butover one in three children born
around 1980 in the US who grewup in households with incomes
near or below the poverty lineremained in low-income
households when they were intheir 30s.
That is just the cycle ofintergenerational poverty.
How does education impactintergenerational poverty?
(11:52):
And then a follow-up is canhigher education and vocational
training, like we provide hereat Ross, can that improve the
chances of upward mobility?
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Ross has a unique approach to education where we
are able to meet each individualstudent, and I think that's
what's going to be needed movingforward for other educational
institutions, and I do believeholistic learning is becoming a
more trend.
My sister works for one of theuniversities here in Michigan
and she's going to conferencesabout holistic education and
(12:22):
being able to have inclusivityin classrooms and on campus.
So I do believe that educationis definitely a key factor to
breaking intergenerationalpoverty.
But one of the things that'sgoing to have to take place, and
one of the barriers that we seehere, even at Ross, is when you
have a student who comes from afamily where education has not
(12:46):
been a priority, it can honestlybe seen as something negative.
So a lot of times we're havingto get to the parents just to be
able to help the students.
I've had to have manyconversations especially when I
was in admissions, with parentsto help them to understand that
this is something that can helpyour child not be in the space
(13:06):
that you were in when you weretheir age, and that's a hard
conversation to have with aparent, and so Ross has an
approach that makes education alot less intimidating, because a
lot of times, especially if you, in your educational journey,
have been someone who's beentold you can't do this or there
are limits to what you can do,education becomes something that
(13:29):
really is scary and can bringon anxiety.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I wanted to extend this same topic because I'm
training today a new person inadmissions and one of the things
that we begin with in thatfirst week of training focuses
on having a conversation aboutthe career or the end game where
their sights are on.
When we first start talking tothem and one of the things I
(13:52):
explained to this person isabout you may be the very first
person that has ever gotten thatstudent to verbalize what the
outcome is that they hope toattain, to give them a
commitment enough to complete itand begin working in that
career.
So how can we start thatconversation sooner, Like in
(14:16):
schools?
Is that through careercounseling at the high school
level?
Or what kind of ways can webegin that conversation earlier?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Honestly, I think it should start immediately when a
child is in school.
From preschool on, themessaging should be you can do
whatever you want to do.
You can be who you want to be.
Your future is your future.
So it needs to start.
Those conversations need tostart as early as possible and
that messaging needs to beconsistent.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
You know I started the conversation, you know,
talking about getting out ofpoverty, making, getting through
college, getting a collegedegree, making money.
And I think you've spent timetalking about the different part
of education, thetransformative part of education
, which is believe in yourself,dream big, think of the big
(15:08):
ideas that you have for yourfuture.
Be around people who thinkdifferently, who are going to
give you a networkingopportunity that will instill
some of that confidence and someof that feeling better about
yourself and about your future.
And I think that's the pointthat people sometimes mess when
we trap our students in a box orstudents from low poverty, from
(15:29):
low income area.
We trap them in a box and theydon't get exposed to these ideas
or they don't expose to adifferent group of people,
different group of thoughts.
But it's not easy to ask peopleto dream big, renice right,
like I've had students who wouldsay, if I tell my husband I'm
going to school, he's going totake the car away from me and so
how do?
How do we, how do we get thatmessage out that it's okay to
(15:53):
strive for success, to thinkabout yourself and have bigger
dream for yourself?
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I have these conversations daily, on a daily
basis.
It's unfortunate, but it's true.
A lot of times, when a studentfinds themselves in a mindset of
wanting to do better andactually taking those steps,
those around them do things thatwill create barriers, and so
when I sit a student down, ofcourse I take in and I receive
(16:21):
everything that's going on rightwho the challenges are, who is
not their cheerleader, and thatthey expected to be their
cheerleader, right.
And then I remind them that noone, no matter what role they
play in your life, gets todecide what your journey looks
like, whether it's a husband,whether it's a parent, whether
it's a sibling or a friend.
We are all individual humanbeings and we all get to decide
(16:46):
who we are.
We are not who someone elsesays we are.
We are who we say we are.
So changing that inner dialogue.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And the flip side of that, maybe not necessarily the
other side of that why do theysometimes, or you or other
students at Ross, feel aloneLike what's the driver, where
they think they're fighting anuphill battle Society?
Speaker 4 (17:09):
has set it up that way, you know, sometimes just
walking outside, it smacks themin the face.
Oftentimes our students, youknow, are lacking things that we
take for granted Right, and solife is constantly telling them
you can't do this, you don'tdeserve this, and they have to
(17:30):
make sure that they can committo this for themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Do you think we make it just simply harder for them?
There's like, like it's.
It's it takes a mountain ofpaperwork to get snap right, to
get a, to get assistance.
It's like you have to provethat you're poor.
Like, well, you know, the IRSgot all my data.
Why do I have to prove that Iam poor, you know?
I mean, do you think we justlike, put them through a process
where we just suck humanity outof them?
(17:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
And I think that's intentional.
I think that's the way thesystem is set up.
It is set up to make itchallenging for you to get to
this thing, that now we'veconvinced you that you need to
survive and I'm going to makesure that you continue to have
to jump through hoops, tocontinue the support to the
point where you feel as if thisis the only support I'll ever
get.
(18:18):
I've gone through all of this.
I might as well stick thisroute out.
I might as well stick thisroute out and a lot of the
stories that I hear from mystudents and conversations.
I have to take a five minutebreak after while I've kept on
you know the good face and I'vesmiled and I've encouraged and
I've empathized.
It breaks my heart.
So things that have becomenormalized for our students and
(18:42):
they can just say in a veryflippant way I think all of that
is because it started out withthem being in a system that had
them work hard to prove thatthey were less than so maybe the
second part of the podcast wetalk about, maybe potential
solutions.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know what are the things that we can do.
You know again, I started totalk about money.
What are things that we can do.
You know again I started totalk about money.
So the US spends the mostamount of money on education,
beyond a small country in Europecalled Luxembourg.
So we are the highest spendingalmost $20,000 per student per
year that we spend on education.
(19:21):
Where does that money go Like?
When I look at it?
And we spend 6.6% of our GDP oneducation.
So we clearly put a lot ofmoney and effort, but many of
the schools that are servinglow-income students do not have
anywhere near the resources thatother schools have.
(19:41):
How can you fix this if oneschool has two to three times
the resources of the school thatis across the street?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I think one of those solutions is breaking down that
barrier and allowing parents tochoose where their students go
to school, because it is obvious, like you said, the funding is
going to the West Bloomfields,the, you know, the East Point
schools and those higher taxbracket communities.
Right, that's where the fundingis going, and so allowing
(20:13):
parents to be able to selectwhat school and what school
district that their students canattend will help to break some
of that.
And I will continue to say, thedecision makers nothing is
going to change until those whomake the decisions change the
way that they make those choices.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
What do you say to somebody who would say I can't
do the 45 minute drive?
You know I cannot take my kidto a school in a safer
neighborhood.
I got to take two buses to goto work.
Why shouldn't I have a safe,good school in my neighborhood,
like the people across thestreet?
Speaker 4 (21:06):
that's a great question, george um, but I will
start with this.
What I would say to that parentwho and that's a viable
response, right I cannot drivemy child 45 minutes away to go
to school.
I can't afford thattransportation and what that
looks like.
That is absolutely reasonable.
To that parent I would say okay, then I need you to do your due
(21:26):
diligence with supplementaleducation.
There are programs out there.
Technology has provided awealth of information.
By the time my child was inhigh school, he was in like
college level courses.
I was lost in his math classes.
I utilized the internet andevery resource I could find.
There are free programs outthere.
(21:48):
So I would just say utilize theresources that you can find in
an area that is conducive towhat you need right For your
lifestyle, for your family.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
But it's going to take more than just sending them
to school, for your lifestyle,for your family, but it's going
to take more than just sendingthem to school.
The admissions team is just it'sstarting an admissions blog and
it's really to focus on sharingexpertise and real life
experiences on how to improvecustomer service to our students
on that front end, and one ofthe pieces that well, the very
(22:22):
first post in that blog is aboutthe decision-making process for
the adult student, and I thinkthis is really appropriate here.
Is that skill or the ability towalk through and make a decision
about number one what kind ofcareer do you want?
But also, what can I do?
That is the best solution forme and right where I am right
(22:46):
now.
So is that driving the 45 milesto drop my kid off or is that
finding other resources that areavailable, but to do the very
best that you can and, of course, being accountable and
responsible for it?
I hear you talking about thatand I think is that something
that can also be done orincluded in social, emotional
(23:06):
skill building and curriculumslike those state standards that
require that?
I mean, I see it invaluable,but maybe my learning experience
was different.
I didn't learn that stuff tillI was in my 40s, really.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
So you know, absolutely, kristen.
I honestly think that that'sone of the reasons that
inability or not understandingof self right, when you're in a
certain lifestyle and in acertain cultural group there is
actually a lot of culturalgroups, right.
Assimilation can be a part ofour society, right, and whatever
(23:43):
group you are in, right.
And so a lack of self,unfortunately, or knowledge of
self, is one of those thingsthat does come.
That, I found, was working withlower socioeconomic students
and families.
So that is why we do havestudents who have gone to seven
different schools, right, why wehave unusual enrollment history
(24:04):
, because they don't even havethe understanding that I don't
know myself enough to even askmyself what's going to work best
for me.
College is college, right.
School is school.
Who's ever asked me what typeof learner I am?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So how about I give that a try, like what works best
for them?
And this is not necessarilybecause I've walked in their
shoes, but this is just becauseI've been in education for so
long and I've seen so many sidesof it.
But here's my shot.
Let me take my shot at this.
You know, education should be apublic good.
(24:42):
It shouldn't be driven by whohas more money, who has bigger
house, who's got the bigger taxbase.
Small classes matter.
If you allow these kids to goto school with a limited number
of students per teacher, itliterally makes a difference.
Whether you're teaching fivemakes a huge difference.
If you're teaching 22, rightAccess to special ed really
(25:06):
makes a difference.
It is like asking teacherssometimes to do something with
one hand tied behind their back.
(25:27):
So I think the parents have aresponsibility, but that
responsibility becomes very,very difficult if they got to
climb a mountain every day totry to get their kids when
somebody similar to them doesn'thave to do that right.
Get their kids when, whensomebody similar to them doesn't
have to do that right, they canjust walk their kid, walk their
kid to school.
And so I think there areelements that, as as a society,
(25:50):
that we can do to make it easier, and it's really starts with
providing that.
You talked about it earlier alittle bit of a?
A.
We take this very draconianapproach to holding student back
, you know, trying to keep them,and then suddenly you're six,
seven inches taller than thekids next to you.
All of this stuff has an impactthat if you don't deal with it,
(26:13):
regardless of what that parentdoes, it's a lose-lose.
I shared that statistics, Ithink, on our last time, I think
on Saturday.
I think on our last time, Ithink on Saturday.
If you're a kid with bad gradesand your parents are rich, you
have a 70% chance to graduatecollege and make money, and if
you're a kid from a poor familywith great grades, you have 30%
(26:38):
chance to graduate college andmake a good living.
Those are not good odds, youknow if you live in poverty.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Absolutely.
When you made that statement,that's when you caught my
attention I was like, okay,george has got me, because you
understood, like you got it andyou made it clear that our
mission is to bridge that gap.
You're absolutely right, andthat is a high mountain to climb
.
It is going to take for parentsto be educated, for school
(27:10):
systems to be willing to makeadjustments to the way that they
are providing educations, forstate educational departments to
be able to provide resourcesequally amongst all of the
districts.
So there's a lot of differentsteps and a lot of different
things in play that it will taketo really, really really create
(27:33):
equality in education.
But I think that in reality,right now, today, what a parent
can do is just really take theirchild's education into their
own hands.
But the challenge comes whenyou are talking about
intergenerational poverty or afamily that has not made
(27:53):
education a priority is that theparent may want that for their
child and again, they have noidea how to know, no idea how to
advocate or who to advocate to.
So I think that maybe we needsome more additional educational
opportunities available toparents of young kids to help
them to provide additionalsupport to their children.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I have seen research, but it's been quite a while
since I investigated this, butit was looking at after-school
programs for K-12 that are not.
They're on community building,but they're focused on the
parents and the family as agroup instead of just the
student.
So the student is notresponsible for passing or
(28:39):
failing.
The family is responsible foreach making their contribution
to support the success of theirchild and student to succeed.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
But let me argue that point though.
So if my parents are screwed upand I'll use me personally do I
have to be screwed up as well?
Right, I mean sometimes when wemake that argument that we got
to get the parents to a certainlevel, like my parents have
always wanted better for me thanfor them.
But if they're totally, totallymessed up, does that mean now I
(29:10):
have to be also totally messedup?
And I think that's really whereI take issue.
Like I think we have anobligation to help these kids
break that intergenerationalpoverty and not just say, hey,
you know, your parents got to dothis and we'll do this.
What if the parents doesn'twant to do this?
Then what happened to that kid?
They're totally screwed andthey have no opportunity.
(29:32):
Like, I am all for longer days,I'm all for longer school year.
I think all that makes sense,but I am more on the providing
the kid, when they're in school,a small class size, mentoring,
one-on-one tutoring, access tospecial education programs,
because you just can't dependthat the parent, who's doing two
(29:54):
jobs or is could be a drug user, could be single mom that's
doing 16 different things tryingto keep her family afloat.
Now she's got to also becomesemi-teacher.
I don't know.
I think that's just the bridgetoo far.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
And I can receive that argument.
I was formerly a single mother,so I know what it is like to be
a single mom, working two jobsto provide for my child.
But I also know that as someonewho wants better for your child
, right.
I too came from a family myparents wanted better for me
than they had and I want thesame for my child.
But I understand that that'sgoing to also take some work for
(30:33):
me.
There has to be someaccountability for that child's
success.
It can't be left all the way upto the educational institution
and then if you have a studentwho has gone through and hasn't
gotten that support in theireducational environments, that's
where programs like Ross comeinto play, because then we're
getting the adult learner thatwe are able to kind of take into
our fold and we can kind ofhelp them navigate through this
(30:56):
new journey.
But we all need support andtypically we search for it from
our family unit.
So I think that it is importantthat families do play a key
role in success for our students, especially when they're in the
lower grades.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
I'm not going to go back and forth, but I am going
to go back and forth on this one.
I think if you have asupportive family, you hit the
jackpot.
If you have a supportive momwho's willing to juggle multiple
jobs, I think God bless you.
You're doing all that you can.
In the 1990s we put a millionblack men in jail.
You know these kids are growingup in a very, very challenging,
(31:36):
difficult environment.
The argument is that justbecause the parents are
uninvolved or they're going toneglect their child, that the
kid has to repeat the history ofthe parents, that they are
condemned to follow the route ofthe mom or the dad or whatever
(31:57):
it is.
And I do believe that schoolshave a role to play, even for
the kids that do not have thefamily support and they do not
have the stability at homebecause otherwise they have no
shot.
I mean they've got zero.
They already have, like I said,the one out of 40, what's that
like two and a half percent?
I mean, if you are a youngblack boy, the odds are so
(32:19):
stacked up against you to beginwith, and the single, the family
unit, might be there, but itmight not be there.
And if it's not there, you'rescrewed.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
No, you're right, because I do recognize that
school is oftentimes a safespace for students.
I really do.
I know that sometimes it'swhere they get their meals, it's
where they have someone saykind words to them.
They get their meals it's wherethey have someone say kind
words to them.
It's the one consistent thing,right, because a lot of times
families are very transient andthey move a lot and things are
(32:51):
not stable.
So I do understand that.
No, I do embrace that schoolcan definitely be a safe space
for our students.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
So I'm going to jump in and provide a little bit
different lens into this.
So my wife has been a teacherup until we had triplets.
She taught three yearsinterstate Detroit in a charter
and then we moved and she taught10 years, fourth grade.
With that.
There is points for both sidesof this argument here.
When you look at it from theteacher perspective, or from my
perspective as the spouse of theteacher, seeing how all of
(33:22):
these classrooms are way too big.
There are parents who areengaged.
There are parents who are notengaged.
Maybe I'm playing peacemakerhere.
There is a need for the parentsbeing involved, but we also
have to get the funding to bemore equal, because my wife, her
smallest class, was 29 studentsand that was a breeze compared
(33:43):
to 32 or 33.
And she was seeing studentswith parents who were highly
engaged.
These are the students who noware graduating and they're
getting, you know, accepted tothe college of their choice.
There's also the students whoare not getting any parent
support, in which, thankfully,in that district there was the
structure to come in and supportthe student, but that's not
something that happens.
(34:03):
In that district there was thestructure to come in and support
the student, but that's notsomething that happens in every
district.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
But I am all for family support, like I'm not
saying necessarily that itdoesn't matter, it absolutely
matters, but it matters normallybecause either you have the
resources or you have the parentthat is willing to do it.
But then there is a segment ofour kids who do not have a
willing parent or the parentdoesn't have the resources, and
(34:28):
that's really where I think westill have that responsibility
to provide the best effortpossible, which is small
classrooms, one-on-one tutoring,one-on-one help, special ed
access, longer school days,longer school year, to provide
these kids the opportunity toplay catch up, because they've
(34:50):
got a long climb ahead of them.
And I don't necessarily knowhow you would.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
If you wait on some parents, you're never going to
get there, and I see it everyday while they're trying to do
two jobs or whatever they needto do to just keep food on the
table yeah, and I see that, I dosee your argument now that
(35:19):
there is that, that's that groupof students who, you're right,
do not have a parent or aguardian that is either willing
or able to even start theprocess of learning how to
advocate.
And that is where, yeah, you'reright, we would need the
schools themselves to step inand provide that support to
students who did not have anytype of support readily
(35:41):
available, whether it wasbecause the parent was unwilling
or unable.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
So yeah, I do see that argument.
When you're getting a smallclassroom, when you're getting
tutoring, when you're gettingmentoring, when you're getting
help when you need it, at leastyou give these kids slightly
better odds than being one outof 29.
I don't know it really.
Healthcare and education wehave two separate systems and we
can say anything we want to say.
(36:12):
We can deny it, we can say no,we're in a land of opportunity.
There's no data that says we'rea land of opportunity.
We're a land of opportunity forsome, but not for others.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
My perspective is both of those systems operate in
the from the negativeperspective many times.
I mean, I really think thatthat vision needs to be changed,
because we only approve testsand health care that are are
paid for, compensated for byinsurance companies.
Not necessarily what's right,maybe perhaps for the patient or
(36:46):
in school, we know we give themall equal instruction and we
have a teacher, that all theteachers have been trained the
same, but, um again, they livein this neighborhood so we don't
have a good tax base.
So you know, it all comes seemsto come from the negative
instead of the optimistic or thepositive side.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Because because we monetize education and we
monetize health care Right.
So now we put a value on goodeducation which costs X amount
of dollars, and we immediatelyexclude everybody else that
can't afford it.
And that's the hard, that's thechallenge of being in this
industry for so long.
I started my first job at aprivate school.
(37:29):
That was mostly for rich kidswho wanted to go skiing, so
going to college for them wasreally not a big deal.
It was just dad wrote the checkand all was good, or mom, I
guess, wrote the check and allis good.
And then you land for a whilein the for-profit sector and
you're like you know this lookscompletely different.
They have no money, noresources, no nothing.
(37:50):
And it really kind of hits youin the face that we basically
now have put a price tag on goodeducation and good health care.
If you can afford it, you'regood, If you can't afford it,
good luck.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Absolutely.
One of the things that mysister and I have been talking
about here lately is that wehave the heart for the people,
but the industry that we are inhas now been converted into big
business.
Education is big business atthis point right, and it's
probably one of the moreprofitable businesses in the US.
(38:25):
If I'm being honest, that'sgoing to be a hard cycle to
break.
You're talking about big moneyfor those who are getting it
right now.
People don't want to let go oftheir comfort.
So again, like I said earlier,what will change actually look
like, and I think that's whythere's hesitation to actually
make real progress.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Well, I don't necessarily see any progress
till the elementary school andthe K through 12s fixed.
Like you know, till we givethese kids a fair chance,
they're they're always therethere's.
I will wrap this up becausethis has been on such a negative
tone podcast.
Sorry about it, but there was amovie way back called um
waiting for Superman.
(39:07):
It was about this group ofcharter schools.
I think one was in New York,was in DC about these parents
trying to get their kids andthey sit there in a lottery.
They're waiting for their kidsto get into the school.
I don't care what political sideyou come from If you don't
watch that movie and start tocry because you're watching
these parents on the edge oftheir seat just praying for
(39:31):
their kids to get selected inthat lottery so they can get
pulled out of that school thathe's in and go to a school that
they wanted to get in.
It literally breaks your heartthat this is what parents have
to go to to get their kids in asafer school, in a better school
.
It truly breaks your heart.
Renice, I know we went all overthe place here, but thank you
(39:54):
for doing this.
Speaker 4 (39:55):
I know we went all over the place here, but thank
you for doing this.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and conversations
like these are so needed.
I thank you for giving me anopportunity to talk with you
guys today.
This was awesome, even thoughyou're right, it was a little
negative, but it's a hardconversation to have.
Yeah, I think we did a greatjob of showing all sides of it
and we kept it as positive as ahard conversation can be.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Well, thank you.
So platform of your choice tolisten to past episodes, as well
as subscribe, so you never missa future episode.
We hope you join us two weeksfrom now for our next episode as
we discuss punishing the poor,navigating the financial aid
process for low-income students.
See you then, thank you.
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