October 11, 2023 • 56 mins
You've probably heard about repurposing content as a strategy to make your marketing more effective (in fact, we talked about it with Angie Jordan in this episode). But if you've tried repurposing content yourself, maybe you're wondering:
- How do I choose which content to repurpose?
- Why is repurposing my content not moving the needle?
- Is my content really going to be impactful for my audience if I'm just repeating myself?
- How do I repurpose content without it getting boring for my audience?
In today's episode, we are joined by Tristan Katz (they/he). Tristan is an educator, consultant, facilitator, and writer who works at the intersection of marketing, equity, and inclusion as well as creating inclusive, equitable, and safer spaces for trans people.
In this episode, Tristan shares how they have leveraged content repurposing to create a meaningful contribution to their field, have an impact, and effectively market their work without constantly being on the content creation hamster wheel.
Here is a look at what you will hear in this episode:
05:52 - How to grow your business by shifting focus away from other people's ideas and toward your own
08:20 - Tristan Katz's solution for sustainable social media marketing
10:02 - Why simply repurposing content isn't enough + how to be create a strategic content repurposing strategy
14:05 - Determining what content "works" for you and your audience when deciding what to repurpose and how
25:02 - Rethinking content pillars through an impact lens
30:05 - How to make social media marketing easier by focusing on impact and authenticity
46:20 - Why you should not making buying or strategy decisions based on your perception of what works for others
50:05 - How to create an offer suite that makes your work more accessible to your audience
Links to resources we reference in this episode
Podcast episode: How to ditch traditional marketing in favor of relationship building
Connect with Tristan
Website
Instagram
Patreon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tristan Katz (00:00):
I'm saying this a lot lately.
Nobody's studying yourmarketing content more than you
are.
Nobody's going to come into myDMs and be like, but you already
said this six months ago.
When I say it again and add theadditional thoughts,
reflections, depth to it, it'slike if somebody was served by
it the first time, well then,they're going to be served by it
even more this time.
Brooke Monaghan (00:30):
Hi friends, welcome to another episode of
Make your Business Work For You.
We are back with a late episodethis week because if you are
not up to date from my Instagramor from my newsletter, you
might not know that last week Ilost my 14 and a half year old
dog, Socrates, who was just thesweetest and just my baby.
(00:52):
For a long time I have wonderedif I would be able to survive
that day, and it happened.
And as a result of that, Ichanged some things up.
One of those things being thaton the day that I was going to
edit and get this episode up, Idecided I needed rest more than
I needed to keep the podcast ontrack.
So we're a little bit late thisweek.
Now, in addition to that, Ihave also moved some things
(01:16):
around for myself to give myselfsome more space, because, when
I tell you, the grief isexhausting, oh my God.
So, with that, Fruition GrowthNetwork is not going to be
launching until November, andthat means that the workshop
that we reference in thisepisode is not actually
happening in October anymore.
It's going to be happening onNovember 28th.
I decided to still air thisepisode now because, to be
(01:39):
honest with you, it's just areally needed episode.
I'm interviewing Tristan Katz.
Tristan uses they and hepronouns.
Tristan's one of my favoritepeople on the face of the earth.
If you have been around for anyperiod of time, then you've
probably heard episodes that wehave recorded.
You've probably heard me shoutthem out left and right.
This particular episode cameafter Tristan and I got on a
(02:00):
call together because I have theprivilege of being on a Tristan
and I text each other aboutbusiness stuff constantly and so
we jumped on a call togetherand we were talking about some
of the things that they weregoing through and kind of where
their work is going, and as aresult of that call, it was like
okay, like we need to talkabout this part of your work on
(02:23):
the podcast because it's just,it speaks just spot on to so
many of the marketing strugglesthat I know many of us are
having right now.
Also I was at Tristan's houselike the week before we recorded
this.
We were going to record it inperson while I was there
(02:44):
visiting, but we decided wewould prefer to drink daiquiris
in their backyard.
So you will hear me referencethat as well.
A couple of helpful thingsbefore we get into this episode.
First of all, I'm putting linksto a couple of past podcast
episodes that Tristan and I havedone together so that if you
want to hear more from Tristan,that's another place where you
can go, if you kind of like thevibe of this conversation.
Also if you go to Applepodcasts and you just search for
(03:08):
Tristan Katz, I would also justsay, if you're a podcast
listener, like there's someoneyou want to hear more from, go
to Apple podcasts and search forthe person's name and you're
going to get a whole bunch ofepisodes that they've been in.
That's a great way that you canhear more from Tristan as well,
or anyone else that you hearabout on the show.
Also, I am using chaptermarkers.
I don't know if you use chaptermarkers, listener, but there's
(03:32):
a good chance that, whateverplayer you use, there's actually
a spot now where you can pullup markers of like what is
covered at different time stamps.
So if you found this episodereally helpful or any of the
future episodes that we do andthere are specific things that
you want to come back to, itshould make it easier for you to
(03:53):
go ahead and come back to those.
Also, you could go ahead andpull those up ahead of time and
jump to parts of theconversation that are relevant
to you, so I just wanted topoint that out because they're
there and I know that I neveruse that function and so, in
case you didn't even know it wasa thing, they're there now you
can go ahead and look for those.
(04:13):
I'm also doing extended shownotes for these episodes now,
which will become available soon, and so you can always go to
joinfruition.
com if you want to dive into anyof the resources or links that
are shared for each of theepisodes, starting with this one
, and if you are enjoying theepisodes so far and you have not
(04:36):
yet left a rating and review onApple podcasts, please, please,
go ahead and do so.
It helps out a lot.
One of the long term plans forFruition is that we are funding
some of our programming throughsponsors, and so getting this
out to as many people aspossible is a really important
thing for this show,specifically given that we would
(04:57):
like to use some of thatfunding to subsidize support for
some small business owners.
So thank you for helping us out.
Let's talk about effective,meaningful, sustainable social
media marketing with TristanKatz.
It's nice to see you, eventhough I was just in your house.
Tristan Katz (05:21):
Yes, actually, this is true, I agree.
I feel like the other you werehere, than there.
Brooke Monaghan (05:27):
Me too, me too.
So I feel like we have torewind in time, and a lot has
happened since this conversation, but I don't know how many
weeks ago it was.
We had a whole conversationabout your work and about the
way that you it actuallyoriginally started as thinking
(05:47):
of an offer.
Tristan Katz (05:49):
Actually, can I back up a minute?
Because it originally startedwith me obsessively spiraling,
studying other people'smarketing and business models
and texting you about my spirals, and you were like you want to
hop on a call and I can just askyou some questions about what
you're experiencing, and I waslike, yes, thank you.
Brooke Monaghan (06:10):
Yes, yes, and then that call was like a couple
hours long.
Yes, and it was great fun forme anyway.
And I feel like initially wegot on that call because you
were thinking about some kind ofmentorship program kind of
thing or some kind of like.
Maybe there's like a groupprogram in here, maybe there's a
different offer.
Tristan Katz (06:30):
Yeah, I feel like we got on the call because I was
looking for the capital Aanswer yet again and thought
that maybe you'd find it thistime and give it to me.
Surprise.
You actually did.
Just not in the way that I washoping for or expecting.
Brooke Monaghan (06:44):
But this is the thing.
If anybody who's listeningdoesn't already know me, you
should know that I am theanti-capital A answer person.
But the reason why is because Iactually think that, to get as
close to that as possible,there's lots of sirens happening
.
I'm not sure how much of thatyou can hear.
I don't hear it at all.
(07:05):
Great, to get as close to theanswer as possible, you need to
take your eye off of trying tolook for it, because it leads
you away from your own ideas.
Tristan Katz (07:19):
Yes, and I was looking for it so hard that I
thought that I could find it bylistening to somebody's podcast
episode all day long, every day,or like studying somebody's
gross program.
Brooke Monaghan (07:35):
Yeah.
Tristan Katz (07:35):
Yeah, and I was looking outward to find the
answer and you helped mereorient and turn someplace else
.
I don't know what you did, butyou did some witchery magic.
Brooke Monaghan (07:47):
Yeah.
So then we discovered that youhave a whole process around
content creation that you use inyour own business, and that
also seems like it could havefilled almost a hole in your
offers.
Tristan Katz (08:04):
Yes, it was something you helped me see that
I have a process that I haven'tbeen -- I've been teaching, but
not.
I've been teaching around it.
I've been teaching about it butnot teaching the process.
Brooke Monaghan (08:16):
Yes.
So the part that I keep comingback to when I think about this
conversation is the part whereyou were like, yeah, like all
that I do is I just have like,basically this whole bank of
content and I'm just likerecycling it all the time.
Tristan Katz (08:33):
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (08:34):
And that's actually what I would want to
help other people do, and ifthey could do that, like it
would be so much moresustainable.
And I was like wait, a second,hold on, hang on, because we've
all heard about repurposingcontent and that's part of this.
But really I think that whatyou are getting at is like first
(08:55):
you develop like a meaningfulcontribution, right, like you
first get clear on like what itis that you want to say.
And in there too, there's likeall of this work that you've
done around, like how do we usemarketing as almost a form of
activism?
How do we market our work andalso move social change, like
(09:15):
through the messaging and all ofthat, like how can we do all of
that at the same time?
Yeah, so it's like that's allnested into the process that you
use for content creation.
And we were just able to kind ofget clear on it.
And you are going to beteaching a workshop which is
going to be free in October inFruition, kind of around this
(09:38):
concept, and so I kind ofthought maybe we could talk
about it, because I thinkeverybody listening is like okay
, tell me more, because that'swhat I want to do.
Everyone keeps saying thatrepurposing content is so easy
and I keep trying to do it andit's not doing anything.
So it's like what are thedifferences, you know?
Tristan Katz (09:55):
Yeah, that's such an important question because it
isn't as simple as just like gorepurpose everything.
I think the point is you haveto find the pieces of content
that are your maybe like coremessages and I'm not just saying
core messages, because it'slike it's like both.
It's like, yes, your coremessages, like the things you
(10:16):
want to say, some of theanchoring like concepts that you
teach in your work.
It's that.
But it's also like looking backto see what worked in your
marketing.
So I feel like what I'm doingwhen I repurpose my content and
I'm not just talking about liketrying to fill in the missing
pieces, but like repurposingwith the intention of having
(10:38):
something actually make a-- Likethere's a difference between
like posting to fill spacebecause you have to say
something, and then postingbecause you've got something
that's really juicy andpotentially going to make an
impact.
And I feel like when I thinkabout posting somebody something
that's really juicy andactually going to reach people
and make an impact, I have tolook back at what has worked
(11:00):
well.
So what I am normally doing islooking back for the last two to
three years at all the contentI've posted on Instagram, for
example, and like pulling outthe four or five typically
carousel slides that have gonemore viral.
I'm putting that in quotesbecause I think viral is like
kind of a garbage concept andand really like based on like
(11:21):
audience size and like a wholeyou know a bunch of different
things like you can go viralwith you know whatever.
It doesn't have to be this big,huge, you know mind blowing
thing that happens, but anyways.
Brooke Monaghan (11:33):
And also nobody wants to talk about how, when
you go viral, suddenly you haveto field the whole bunch of
assholes in your comments andlike deal with a whole bunch of
bullshit that you never evenwanted to deal with and a bunch
of people are now looking atyour shit who you don't actually
want to be engaging with andall that.
Tristan Katz (11:49):
No, yeah, no.
The goal is not to go viral.
By the way, when you go viral,that's not the answer either.
Right like that and fulltransparency.
I feel like, in this zoom callthat you and I had for two and a
half hours, part of theconversation was me being like.
But these people on Instagramhave hundreds of thousands of
followers Brooke, and why don'tI have hundreds of thousands of
followers?
And if I only did, then maybethat would be the answer to like
(12:12):
all of my financial stabilityand business problems right,
yeah.
And we know that's not the case.
Like, if you dig into it, thenarrative is if you have this
many followers, you are fine.
I don't think that's what'sactually happening, and so
people are engaging withmeaningful or like impactful
content, but they're notnecessarily clicking through to
your website and so, yeah, I.
(12:34):
But that means we just need tobe putting out more.
To me.
And I'm not saying more emptyshit, I'm saying more consistent
, meaningful stuff, which is whythe repurposing thing is so
crucial, because if I create onelike solid carousel slide post
and I'm talking about likegetting really concise, not
(12:58):
being too wordy, like making thegraphic look like good, like
one solid carousel slide, Ithink can be turned into like
fricking 20 pieces of additionalcontent.
Yeah, and that's the part Iwant to get at is like, if you
can figure out what works and Isee a lot of folks like trying a
(13:20):
lot of text or like the designis missing something, like we
have to narrow down all of thesedifferent approaches, [Brooke
Monaghan] I just like sm ackedmy mic in my excitement of
writing something down.
Brooke Monaghan (13:35):
[Tristan Katz] I'm rambling now.
[Brooke Monaghan] No.
So I'm hearing you talk aboutwhat works, and what's coming to
mind for me is something thatand I'm going to link to past
podcast episodes that you and Ihave done right for other
podcasts, because I think we'vetalked a lot about this.
But in case people are justhearing us talk about this for
the first time, or you talkabout this for the first time,
(13:56):
one of the things that's reallyimportant here is that you,
Tristan, are very intentionalabout creating community and
having real relationships withpeople, and I think that that's
why you are able to look at yourstats of quote, unquote, what
works and then choose, based onwhat works, what you're going to
repurpose and have it not behollow, because for you, what
(14:16):
works is aligned with whatmatters to you and it's aligned
with what your meaningfulcontribution to the field is,
because of the fact that you'vebeen very intentional about
creating an actual community andactual relationships with
people.
So it's not just conversionrates.
[Tristan Katz] No [BrookeMonaghan] It's people are
(14:36):
responded.
People in my community areresponding to this in a way
where it's clear that they needto hear this again.
[Tristan Katz] Yes.
[Brooke Monaghan] And that, Ithink, is like a really
important, like foundation tounderstanding how you approach
this differently from maybeother people who are just
(14:59):
looking at okay, well, you dothis because it works.
It might not be aligned withvalues or it might not be
aligned with what the meaningfulcontribution to the field is,
but it works, so let's just keepdoing it.
Which creates, recreatesbusiness as usual.
So I'm almost thinking like, dowe need to?
I don't know, Tristan, right onyour thing, next to you,
(15:20):
creating community in your thing, because I'm like the whole
thing doesn't really actuallywork without that part.
Tristan Katz (15:28):
I'm just I did write it down creating community
, because I am really in inquirylike what does it actually mean
, though, to create community onsocial media?
So I hear what you're sayingand I'm like I'm agreeing with
you.
I'm like, yes, everythingyou're saying is true.
I've done that, I'm puttingthat in quotes, but I'm also
like I only, I only follow.
I think I'm at 700.
(15:49):
I keep trying to get the numberdown.
I think I'm following 715people.
If I'm only following 715people, How am I, I'm like tell
me, though?
How do people what kind of?
Do you see what I'm saying?
Brooke Monaghan (16:05):
Because I think that people are finding you.
This is a conversation we'vehad before.
You're a person who I look toas an example of okay, and this
is part of what I was reallyhoping to communicate to you
when we were talking about the"but why don't I have more
followers on Instagram?
Yeah, Because you, to me, arean example of how you can grow
(16:28):
your following on social media.
Not by necessarily going viralor being more visible on social
media, but instead by beingvisible in actual like community
spaces.
Tristan Katz (16:43):
I see what you're saying.
Yes.
Brooke Monaghan (16:44):
So people, I think, are finding you because
there are people who arereferring you, who have trust in
you.
They were at an event orsomething like that, like you're
very actively engaged with thepeople who I'm sure there's a
lot of people who follow you whohave not been in a space with
you in person, but I think thatthat's the thing that is
(17:06):
actually having people come andfind you.
Not necessarily the algorithm.
Tristan Katz (17:13):
I hear what you're saying and I agree with you.
Yes, yeah, and sometimes it'sthe algorithm, but that's not
what my main I don't know pointof connection is.
Brooke Monaghan (17:23):
Yeah.
Tristan Katz (17:26):
Yeah, thank you, that's an interesting
observation.
Brooke Monaghan (17:28):
Yeah, and also I would be interested.
I don't know, like I don't knowbecause you you're the person
who I look to as the person whodoes this so well.
So like I would be curious ifyou really think about, like
what does that actually mean?
Or like, why is it?
Why is it that you, Tristan,are able to look at your
insights and go what performedreally well over the past few
years, and the things thatperformed well are things that
(17:49):
you actually want to keeprepeating?
Tristan Katz (17:51):
I mean, I do want to keep repeating them, but let
me also be clear I'm thinkingabout one post in particular
that I've reworked I don't know,maybe four times.
And also let me be clear thatwhen I rework these posts, it's
in part yes, it is in part torepurpose and put it out again,
but it's also in part to reflectthat over time, my
understanding of the thing thatI'm teaching about has changed,
(18:13):
right, and how I talk about ithas changed, and now I have new
things I want to say about it,or a corrected or updated
understanding about it, orwhatever.
And so an example is there's apost I probably put out I'm
guessing, twice a year on womenwith an X.
It's not just on womxn with anX, right, it's on the way we
relate to language, how we canbe inclusive with our language,
(18:35):
but how we can be performativeand non-inclusive with our
language.
It's a commentary on theobsession that we have with,
like, if I could just get theword right, then it'll mean that
I'm the good person and peoplecome into my space and I'll be
safe, right.
So it's that kind of post.
But the title slide is focusedon women with an X and that gets
(18:58):
people in to the largerconversation.
You know what I'm saying.
And so am I excited to keeptalking about women with an X?
No, am I.
Do I want to keep talking aboutit every single day?
No, do I want to talk about itseveral times a year?
I don't know.
But I'm excited to make animpact.
And it seems that people stillneed to hear about inclusive
(19:23):
language and the way we'rereinforcing, you know, the
gender binary with our language,or cis-heteronormativity or
whatever.
And people are still having aconversation about, like, what
keywords do I use in my work?
Like, how do I talk about who Ispecialize in and niche down
and whatever the hell.
And so, to me, am I excited tokeep talking about it?
Not necessarily, but I know theconversation needs to keep
(19:43):
happening.
Right, and I do want to be apart of that conversation.
So I don't know if that makessense, but it's not like I'm
like, yeah, I can't wait to dothis again, you know.
Brooke Monaghan (19:53):
Yeah, no, I totally get it.
I just think about like I don'tknow if you've gotten, the more
that I talk to people about theads that I get, the more that I
realize how different ourexperiences are because of the
fact that the fucking algorithmknows what we respond to better
than we even do and the way thatour brains work makes it so
(20:13):
that we get targeted withdifferent shit.
But I've started getting thisparticular flavor of ad where
it's this really weird videothat has nothing to do with the
thing that the person is saying.
So, for example, you know thatbrand of that particular flavor
of video where it's like someonelike icing a cookie.
(20:37):
Do you know what I mean andit's like you just want to watch
it.
You're just like this issatisfying to watch.
Or the hydraulic press videos.
Do you ever watch the hydraulicpress videos?
[Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Okay, there's this whole seriesof videos.
You should go on YouTube andlook it up after this.
There's a whole series ofvideos where people just put
different things under thispress and you just watch it
(20:58):
smash it, and then there's likea spin off where people take
that and then they make a sideby side of them trying to
reenact what it looked like whenthat thing got smashed, and
wearing different outfits thatare the color of it, and they're
like contorting themselves in away.
That is like it's hilarious.
Anyways, anyways, I have apoint to all of this.
(21:19):
[I know you do.
[There's a certain type ofcompany brand person who's
literally looking at quoteunquote what works in terms of
what keeps eyes on a thing.
That's the way the algorithmworks.
Yes, and they're trying to gainthe algorithm.
(21:39):
So they're looking at oh, icingcookies really keeps people's
attention.
I'm going to put a video oficing cookies in my ad and then
over it there's going to becaptions and voice of me talking
about some fucking softwarethat has nothing to do with
anything.
Why?
Because it's going to keeppeople on it and that's going to
(22:01):
make it go in front of morepeople.
Whatever.
Right?
For you.
There is something that youhave done, which makes it so
that what works in your insightsis somehow aligned with impact,
and I think that that's comingfrom the fact that the people
who are finding you are findingyou for quote nquote the right
(22:23):
reasons?
Tristan Katz (22:25):
In wonder because part of what I hear you saying
in that and I'm reallyappreciating what you're saying
and what you're sharing and partof what I hear you saying is
there's people out there lookingat what works and using that
information to be manipulativein their marketing.
And I want to look at whatworks in my marketing and use
(22:45):
that to be meaningful, right?
Brooke Monaghan (22:49):
RBut how often is it that you look at what
works in your marketing andyou're like, oh, if I just
reworked this piece of contentor I guess maybe an example of
that would be okay.
The womn with an X cover slidegets people through the door, so
I'm going to use that and thenI'm going to hook people in with
(23:12):
that and then use the fact thatI have their attention to get
them to do something else asidefrom making an actual
contribution in the conversation.
Tristan Katz (23:23):
I mean, I guess what I want to say is, when I
look at what works, I thinkcontent, what's been working,
but also graphic design, becauseI think on Instagram, as a
visual platform, the design isreally important to pull people
in, and so I'm using like, I'mfocusing on the text and the
look and feel to see what works,and then I take that
(23:44):
information and filter itthrough what feels right for me,
like maybe what feels right ischanging the title slide
completely this time, because Idon't you know what I mean,
because whatever I've said lasttime doesn't feel good anymore,
or I'm tired of saying X, Y andZ, so I have to check in with
what still feels aligned for mein that moment, rather than
(24:08):
being like, well, I need toreach more people, so I'll just
think about what works and bemanipulative w information.
Right, Does that make sense[Totally.
Yeah, yeah, I really I wantthat's.
The thing is like.
I think a lot of what is taughtin the marketing space is super
manipulative and gross and someof it is super valuable and we
(24:29):
can use it skillfully ratherthan manipulatively and grossly.
Brooke Monaghan (24:32):
Yes, yeah, yes, great and so okay.
So, then, one of the thingsthat we had talked about is kind
of like what needs to happenfor you to actually even be able
to approach this in this way,like people aren't going to be
able to just like come into aconversation about repurposing
(24:53):
content and how to createmeaningful content without
having done the other work.
Y nodding very quickly, so just, I would like for you to just
say more.
Tristan Katz (25:01):
I mean, this is what I'm thinking about.
Like, how do I get folks intowhat I think are content pillars
, but not content pillars in theway that the marketing dominant
culture people talk aboutcontent pillars.
I'm not talking about, liketips and techniques, value posts
, whatever.
I'm talking about like, okay,when I think about my content,
(25:25):
well, inclusive language andlike sharing power with language
and using language as asolidarity tool that is
meaningful.
That's one of my contentpillars.
So, and then, like, maybeanother content pillar is I'm
laughing is like remindingpeople not to erase trans folks
(25:48):
in the conversation aboutabortion rights.
You know what I mean.
Like what I'm saying, what I'mdoing in my head right now is
I'm thinking back to the lastthree years of the content I've
put out and what has been reallypopular.
So it's not necessarily likewhat I talk about over and over
again, though sometimes thosetwo intersect and overlap.
I'm also thinking about whathas really made an impact in the
audience, owhatever.
(26:09):
And so then I take those piecesof content and for some reason,
my brain says, ideally, thereare five pillars that we work
with and those five pieces ofcontent like, if it's me and I'm
thinking inclusive language ortrans abortion access.
Of course, thinking about ourdear S Galante hi Steph, [hi
(26:30):
Steph If this doesn't get addedout, I'm thinking about Steph
and like the relationship thatshe talks about to self-care and
challenging systems ofoppression right and reclaiming
self-care outside of capitalismand white supremacy.
Like to me, she's got severalcontent pillars that relate to
that theme, or maybe it's justone, but like I can see easily,
(26:51):
like she's got some pillars,you've got pillars and again,
these aren't [Good to knowbecause I wasn't aware.
No, you definitely, and I'mlike, but it's not just like, oh
, these are the five things Italk about in my brand.
It's like these are the thingsthat I come back to over and
over again because I know myaudience needs to hear it.
And I csay it over and overagain in different ways because
I'm in constant relationship tothis thing and learning about it
(27:12):
, and so the next time I talkabout it, it's going to be even
more meaningful because it'sgoing to be more authentic with
where I'm at in my own learningor whatever a growth, and it's
going to come across differentlybecause I've changed in
relationship to it.
You're having a moment, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (27:30):
How could you tell?
Tristan Katz (27:33):
What happened?
Brooke Monaghan (27:37):
You saying you're in constant relationship
to it and so things have changed, and so it's like being able to
revisit this and add.
epth is part of what I'mhearing.
Tristan Katz (27:50):
Yes, and then each time you add depth, it's like,
first of all, nobody's going tocome back and say to me I mean,
maybe somebody will someday.
Tristan, you post about thistwo times a year.
I always am saying this a lotlately.
Nobody's studying yourmarketing content more than you
are.
Nobody's going to come into myDMs and be like but you already
(28:11):
said this six months ago.
And when I say it again and addthe additional thoughts,
reflections, depth to it, it'slike if somebody was served by
it the first time, well then,they're going to be served by it
even more this time.
And so I'm serving the sameperson over and over again, even
helping them integrate thislearning over time.
Brooke Monaghan (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, and I've had, because I'm even less
creative than you are.
I go back into my insights andI literally share the exact same
post again.
I don't even change anythingabout it.
Tristan Katz (28:48):
See, I don't think there's anything wrong with
that and I think it's going tobe more effective if we
repackage it.
Brooke Monaghan (28:59):
Right.
So oftentimes what I'll do isI'll share the same like graphic
and I change the caption that'swith it.
And when I've done that, thisis just to the point of people
coming and saying, oh well, youpost about this two times a year
.
I've done that before and hadpeople comment.
I remember this from the firsttime that you posted it.
Thank you so much for remindingme.
I've had that happen severaltimes so people might notice and
(29:21):
they might be like oh right,you know, like thank you so much
for bringing that up again,because the algorithm's not
going to.
Tristan Katz (29:31):
Right, they're not going to be like and now I'm un
following you because you saidthis six months ago yeah.
And maybe they will, but ifthat's the case, that's not
somebody you need to be inrelationship with.
Brooke Monaghan (29:39):
Yeah, so okay.
So I'm trying to keep myself ontrack and also let this go where
it wants to go, because part ofwhat I'm hearing in this
conversation is this parallelbetween the work that you do on
content creation and marketing,the work that you do on equity
(30:04):
and inclusion, the work that Ido on leading people away from
trying to find the capital Aanswer.
It's like the sigh of relief tome comes when you realize that
you can stop focusing on doingenough, and you can stop
focusing on doing all of theright things or going down and
(30:26):
being like, yep, I marketed mywork enough this time, or I
posted enough times this week,or I'm doing the marketing the
right way, when you can takeyour eye off of that and instead
focus on how are things landingwith people?
What's the impact that you'rehaving?
How is this affecting people?
Who are you showing up fortoday?
What do people actually need tohear from you?
How are you cutting through thenoise of all of that bullshit
(30:50):
and instead stopping people intheir tracks by having something
meaningful to say?
That, to me, feels so muchbetter in my body than being up
against how to do social mediathe right way and get people's
attention and keep up.
Tristan Katz (31:17):
I don't know why, it's easy for me.
First of all, I just want toname that.
I find social media marketingto be pretty easy for me.
I know that's not everybody'sexperience, but I think part of
the reason it's easy is becauseI kind of get out of my own way
a little.
I just think, instead ofthinking I've got to create this
(31:39):
perfect thing or I've got tomarket this this many yes, I do
come up with a loose plan forwhen I'm marketing something,
but then I kind of throw theplan out the window and have to
really go moment to moment.
I don't have it in me to be onInstagram today, so this launch
is not going to be what Ithought it was going to be.
Oh well, hopefully it works,hope I don't have to cancel the
thing.
By the way, all the time I haveto cancel the thing.
(32:02):
So, like you know, life happens.
But part of the reason I thinkit's easy for me is because I
have worked so hard to trydifferent things and in trying
different things over severalyears, I have learned this thing
(32:22):
, or I've noticed like thisthing works, this thing doesn't,
or I've been able to hear toolike yes, I thought I should
talk about X, Y and Z inmarketing this offer, this, this
product, this whatever.
But I'm hearing from clients orpeople right now that they're
talking about this thing instead, so I'm going to speak to that
thing instead because it doesstill feel aligned right, and I
(32:45):
think that's.
It's like holding it all reallyloosely, like yes, I have a
plan, yes, I know I need to postthis many times a week, but
like I'm just going to hold itall loosely and see what comes
through.
And part of that is lookingback and saying like, okay, if
I'm marketing this particularprogram, what kind of content
have I made over the last threeyears that can be repurposed to
meet to talk about this programand how can I repackage it in a
(33:06):
way that really pulls people infor this particular moment,
right?
Brooke Monaghan (33:10):
yeah, yeah.
One of the questions that I askpeople, especially people who
I'm just starting to work with,like in the very, very early
days of working together, is Idon't actually ask them actually
a ton of questions to get tothis which is what do you want
to hold firmly and what do youwant to hold loosely?
(33:33):
And what I'm hearing in this isyou're holding really firmly the
idea of having an impact andmoving certain ideas forward and
making a meaningfulcontribution, and then you're
holding really loosely the waythat you do that, or how to
(33:54):
experiment with that on socialmedia or otherwise, to move that
forward.
That's the experimental thing.
But the reason that you're ableto do this in a way that is
like effective and alsomeaningful and also, like you
know, the reason that you'reable to do that, I think is
because of the fact that, likeat no point have I ever I've
known you for I think like threeyears at this point and like
(34:16):
literally at no point have Iever seen you put out a hollow
post, because it's just like notwhat you do.
Tristan Katz (34:24):
No, if I want to do like a filler post and by
that I mean I'm like should Ineed to post something about
this workshop?
What should I say?
I want to make it meaningful, Idon't want to just make it, you
know, empty then I'm going topull one meaningful sentence out
of something I've written inthe past and that sentence goes
on a canva graphic.
So there's still substance,right?
(34:45):
Yeah, and part of this isbecause I learned really, really
early on that you can't justpost the marketing, the
straightforward marketing asset,like you can't just post the
workshop flyer, you can't justpost the podcast graphic.
You have to provide value ifyou're going to reach people, in
part because I think a lot ofus are like stop trying to sell
me.
(35:05):
Like Instagram has become likejust like sell, sell, sell,
pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch,pitch, pitch.
Sometimes I'm on Instagram andI'm like who else is even using
this app other than likebusinesses and entrepreneurs?
You know?
So how do you show that you'renot just there to sell people?
Because, yes, sure, you mightbe using Instagram for your
online business, which means youneed to make money, which means
(35:27):
you need to sell things.
And I think the orientation forme isn't the selling, it's the
awareness raising.
It's awareness raising aboutthe conversation I'm having and
it's awareness raising about myown work, which is a part of
that conversation, which is likeyou know, and when I approach
it as awareness raising, itcompletely, yeah, nothing is
(35:49):
just empty and meaninglessanymore.
Right, my whole, my wholeaccount is about awareness
raising on some level and to me,that is going to make a
meaningful impact.
And when people think, oh, Iwant to work with someone who
knows marketing from this lensor who teaches, like they'll
remember me because I've been intheir space, right, in a way
(36:09):
that isn't just about buy fromme, buy from me, buy from me,
buy from me.
That is not going to work.
Brooke Monaghan (36:15):
Right, right, yeah, and the way that you have.
You know, I think back on, andI say I think back on because I
no longer think about this shitanymore.
But you know the marketingbasics that you learn when
you're like just starting out,and it's like people need to
know, like and trust you.
[Tristan Katz] know like andtrust I fucking hate that shit.
(36:35):
Yeah, it does.
If you aim for kno like andtrust, it's gross.
[And I do think it's true thatpeople need to know, like and
trust you, but the way thatpeople actually know, like and
trust you, ristan, is because ofthe fact that you have
approached things not by tryingto get people to know, like and
trust you, but by doingmeaningful work.
Tristan Katz (36:58):
Yeah, that's the thing is like and I know I feel
like you and I have talked aboutthis before on a previous
episode that we recorded.
[Let's sagain.
it again yeah, I really thinkthat the no-light and trust
factor, which is like marketing101, is gross.
We've said that like four timesnow and it's also.
(37:19):
It exists as a marketing 101teaching for a reason.
Yes, I dthink we need tocultivate I'm putting this in
quotes the no-light and trustfactor.
I just want to see us do itfrom a place of genuineness and
authenticity and likemeaningfulness, and not from
manipulation or performance.
(37:40):
And I want to be clear I thinka lot of what we do, if not all
of what we do on social media onsome level is a performance.
But are we doing it forperformance sake or are we doing
it because it's genuine?
And then that mitigates thegrossness of the performance.
But I'm thinking of some ofthese like larger IG growth
(38:00):
people with like huge accounts,who talk about no-ligh and trust
and who are very muchperforming, and you can feel it
Like I feel like I don't knowthis person but like I think I'm
supposed to like and trust thembecause, look, they've got the
receipts to show that, liketheir clients make more X, Y and
Z right?
Well, I'm not, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (38:20):
I'm no Or they have figured something out that
I haven't figured out andthey're making it look like
things are really easy for them,or they've kind of found the
like magical key to whatever.
So I need access to them sothat I can get it too, because
this sucks.
Tristan Katz (38:36):
Yeah, but let me tell you because I'm still I've
got like two people in my headright now who I'm still
pedestalizing them, thinkingthey figured it out this online
business thing and thisInstagram thing.
And I know now because I paid asmall amount of money to get
into one of these spaces withthem to see what it was like and
the money was worth it for meto know, oh, this is gross.
(38:58):
It's like, yes, I can look atthis person's marketing, their
sale pages, their email, thesequence, the whole thing and be
like, wow, they really gottheir shit figured out.
I should look at this person, Ishould study with this person,
I should figure out what thisperson is doing.
But then I paid 90 bucks to getinto one of their challenges
and it was.
It was gross.
It felt totally gross.
Am I going to use some of thestuff they offered in the
(39:19):
challenge?
Maybe, but I mostly just paidto be like what's actually
happening there and in that r.
Brooke Monaghan (39:26):
Confirmation.
Yea Yeah, it's kind of like howI paid a lot more than that to
get a leadership coachingcertification, which I put off
for so long because I was likethese coaching certification
programs feel so gross to me.
But what if there is somethingin there that I don't know I'm
being irresponsible because Idon't know?
Okay, you know what.
I have the money, I'm justgoing to do it.
(39:48):
I did it.
I came out the other side and Iwas like you know what?
It actually is kind of cool tohave some of these PDFs to rely
on.
Tristan Katz (39:56):
ESometimes you just pay to get the PDF.
Brooke Monaghan (39:58):
Yeah, I know, oh, I actually do have a tool
that I paid an exorbitant amountof money for the rights to use,
but also the confidence walkingaway of being like, oh my gosh,
I can trust myself because Iactually already knew all of
this stuff and actually there'ssome things that they say to do
that I know from my experience,I'm never doing.
Yes, I trust myself morebecause of that, yeah.
(40:20):
So, yes, I have a questionabout sustainable social media,
because this is something thatyou talke about a lot and the
repurposing is definitelysomething that allows it to feel
more sustainable, and I thinkpeople talk a lot about
repurposing as like kind of thisgolden ticket to s sustainable
(40:44):
social media.
I'm curious for you One of thethings that I find makes the way
that people market themselvesunsustainable is that sometimes
people will do things simplybecause of the fact that they've
been promised it would work,and put themselves through doing
(41:07):
it not because it feels goodfor them, not because they
understand that it's going tomake an impact, not because it's
tied to some deeper purpose,but because that's what they
were told they needed to do.
And then, when it doesn't work,it's incredibly discouraging
because they just put themselvesthrough all of that which was
supposed to promise somethingand which promised something and
they don't get it.
(41:27):
And then it's like well, whatthe fuck?
Part of what I'm hearing fromyou is that, even if, in the way
that you market and in the waythat you teach marketing and
content marketing, even if thecontent doesn't sell a thing or
you don't hit a goal that youwanted to hit, if it's tied to
some deeper reason, if it's tiedto making an impact, then it
(41:51):
doesn't feel as draining when itdoesn't work, because you still
put something out there thatwas meaningful for you to say.
Tristan Katz (42:02):
Yes, and so I think and this is something I'm
trying to speak to more of andI'm not quite sure how to do it
yet but just to say that it'snot like I put out a post and
then the registrations just comeflying in.
You know what I mean.
It's not even a one-to-one.
It's not like one post, onesign up.
It's some weird otheralternative, like you can't map
(42:27):
it type equation, right.
And so to me putting out thepost to move registrations
forward for a particulartraining or something it's like
yes, I am putting out the postbecause I'm in this marketing
timeline and I need to drawawareness to this particular
training, but I'm also justputting out the post for it to
exist on my profile or for it toexist in the world, and to me,
(42:52):
if it's more meaningful orvaluable, then it's going to get
shared more right or saved more, and that's especially the
sharing could lead to moreregistrations or awareness of my
work.
But I'm not waiting.
I did have a time and there wasa time, I actually think maybe
in early COVID in 2020 where youput it, I put out a post and
(43:14):
the registrations would come in.
I remember I released an e-bookin 2020 and people bought it
like immediately right.
Yeah, we're at a different pointnow in 2023.
And I don't see it being likeit was in early 2020 with, like
this, like thirst for onlineprograms or thirst for online
resources.
We're at a different placewe're, like, oversaturated and
(43:34):
tired and we want to be inperson as much as we can those
of us who have access to do soand so it's just the market has
changed, right, like the way weengage with stuff has changed,
and to me, that means thatactually it's my job, like
literally to put even more valueinto what I share and to make
(43:58):
what I share actually meansomething.
Did that speak to what you weresaying?
Because I feel like I got offtopic a little.
Okay.
Brooke Monaghan (44:07):
Yeah, totally did.
And it's something that I thinkis like like for people who are
listening if you've been doingwhat you're doing for a long
time and you feel like thethings that you used to do, that
used to work, aren't workinganymore, that is that.
That is yeah, that's the waythat it is right now.
Tristan Katz (44:29):
Yeah, and this is part of why I started like
looking for the answer again.
Right, yeah, because I was likesomething's not working.
It's not just that I've takenan exorbitant amount of time off
this year.
It's like, for example, I'mteaching a sustainable social
media training.
Three years ago, maybe even twoyears ago, you put those three
words on a graphic and put thaton Instagram and I bet people
(44:51):
would have signed up immediately.
Right?
Sustainable social media?
Yes, and I thought that thatwould be the case right now.
Doesn't everybody want to talkabout sustainable social media?
Aren't people going to beclamoring to get into this
program?
I'm not seeing that.
It doesn't mean it's not needed.
I'm just I have to check myself.
It's a different landscape,it's a different time.
So that was part of why you andI got on the call, too was
(45:12):
because I was like what am Imissing?
Like am I not leveraging myrelationships or my existing
network?
Like should I be marketingthings in this way?
People are like maybe I need tobe on YouTube.
Like the moment has changed,and so a lot of us are still
trying to figure out, like, howdo we make it work in this new
moment when, to your point, whatworked three years ago is no
(45:33):
longer working, and I don'tthink it's as simple as well,
Instagram is done or like thatdoesn't work anymore.
Or you know, build a salesfunnel and work on your
newsletter list, like I thinkit's some mysterious combination
of both, like trying lots ofdifferent things and holding it
(45:55):
all really loosely.
Yeah, I'm also just thinkingabout like you know.
Part of what I was thinking wasyou know, I don't have like a
sales funnel set up, andsometimes I subscribe to
people's newsletters just to seehow they use their newsletter
marketing and I can see, forexample, I'm watching somebody
(46:19):
promote a particular likeintensive, and I got an email
almost every day for a wholeweek from this person as they
were promoting it, and I waslike, huh, this is working for
them, though.
This is a tried and true model.
They keep doing it.
They keep saying they keepthese emails are like scheduled
way in advance, like I can, Ican tell you know, and so I'm
like they figured it out.
(46:40):
They figured out to sell thisintensive, they need to send
this many emails and they needto post this many times, or
whatever the hell it is.
I don't know.
It's working and I don't wantto spend time on sales funnels.
Brooke Monaghan (46:51):
Yeah.
Well.
Also, though, what's sointeresting about that is that
that kind of gets into thisthing that happens in the
business development space,where the perception is, oh,
this is working and so I shouldtrust this person.
But how much of it is workingjust because you have the
perception that things areworking?
Tristan Katz (47:13):
And this is the other thing that I loved and I
know I'm being a littlemysterious because I'm talking
about online coaches and notnaming anybody.
Happy to name everybody thatI'm thinking of, but the one
person I'm thinking of right nowthe perception is it's working.
And then they posted in theirstories a photo of the Zoom room
(47:33):
after the intensive started,and so I could see how many
people showed up live to thatfirst session, and it was a
small group.
So it wasn't like the Zoom roomwas 50 people, 25 people.
It wasn't a full Zoom screenand so is it working?
And then immediately in my headI was like, ok, so they sold
let's just say this many spots,and I know the rate for the
(47:54):
program.
How much money is that?
Ok, if they do that two times ayear.
I was like, oh, it is working,but it's not working in the way
my brain says.
They probably have so manypeople in that program.
My brain says, oh, and thisemail funnel that they've
created, the sales funnel thatthey've created, they're nailing
it, they're knocking it out ofthe park.
They've got 10 people in theZoom room.
Brooke Monaghan (48:12):
But also.
Ok, so let's say there were 50people in the Zoom room.
If the additional 40 that we'reimagining joins because they
had a perception that thingswere working, that's not going
to replicate to other types ofbusinesses.
(48:33):
It might replicate if you areselling stuff about marketing or
if you're selling stuff aboutbusiness development and you're
trying to build trust, as I am aperson, but if you are a health
coach, if you're a yoga teacher, if you're a, that's not going
to replicate because no onegives a fuck about your sales
funnel.
Tristan Katz (48:52):
No.
Brooke Monaghan (48:53):
So if you're there to learn a skill that you
can take and apply to adifferent type of business, it's
just something to be reallyaware of and it's entirely
possible that it could beworking for them, and it's
working for a reason that is notgoing to replicate in your
business.
Tristan Katz (49:12):
Yeah, and the other thing I want to say on
this topic is that my brainwants to say working means this
many numbers, this many people,this much money.
And I would like to challengethat thought process.
Because to me, three peoplemight be it's working.
And I'm thinking a conversationthat I've had with somebody in
(49:34):
your spaces who said to me well,I've only gotten five students
in this program that I've beenmarketing for a really long time
and I was like that's a success, like five people consistently,
they're coming consistently.
That is completely a success.
Is it the goal financially thatyou had for the program?
No, but it's a different kindof success, because we're not
(49:55):
like it's not going to be likethis is the program.
This is the answer again, Ithink and this is one thing that
I'm constantly learning throughyou is how do we diversify our
offerings?
Not because it's the rightthing to do, but because, or
rather it's what you should doas a business owner.
It's like how do we diversifyour offerings to make our work
(50:16):
accessible for people with wherethey're it's more oriented
towards, like I want to serveyou and I know you've got this
much money and you've got thismuch money and you want somebody
to hold your hand, but you wantsomebody to do it for you, and
so I'm going to create all thesedifferent pathways to make my
work accessible, so more peoplecan access it.
Brooke Monaghan (50:35):
Right, yeah, yeah, I'm realizing.
I'm remembering the thing thatI was going to say before, when
we were talking about how thingsused to work in 2020 that don't
work now.
The story that I always tellmyself just in case anyone who's
listening tells themselves thestory, too is that it's because
of my inner landscape at thetime.
I was so motivated and I was sointo my work and I was so fiery
(51:00):
and was just writing in a waythat was so resonant, and I need
to figure out how to get myselfthere again and not just be who
I am now.
Tristan Katz (51:09):
Right, because now you're not motivated or engaged
in your work, or fiery, no fire.
I see you having zero fire.
Brooke Monaghan (51:17):
Thanks, thanks for the reminder.
Yeah, and I know that peopletell themselves that, like a lot
of it, it's like because of thefucking prosperity gospel and
shit about if you just figureout how to align yourself in
such a way, then things are justgoing to click for you.
(51:38):
And so if things aren't workingnow, but they were working
before and well, of coursethings felt good when they were
working, but it's so easy totell yourself the story that it
was because you got yourself tofeel a certain way that things
started working, and then it'sjust yeah.
Tristan Katz (51:50):
I mean, I've got the.
It was working in 2020 and 2021because I was overworking.
[Brooke Monaghan] I know[Tristan Katz] Right, so like
that wasn't working, though,right?
Like sure, the business wasworking, but I was overworking,
so that wasn't working.
Brooke Monaghan (52:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So you are going to be teachingworkshop on this topic.
It is going to be free inFruition, so anybody who wants
to come can come, and you'regoing to be going deeper into
this and providing support forpeople who want to start
approaching their content inthis way, and so this is
(52:28):
everybody's invitation.
Is there anything more that youwant to say about that, or
anything that we didn't talkabout that you want to leave
people with?
Tristan Katz (52:34):
I'll just say that I think what I'm going to plan
for that workshop is offering ataste of this framework that I
am developing, that Brooke haskind of literally coached me
into understanding that I'mdeveloping it and I want to
bring in a glimpse of theframework and make it accessible
for folks to play with and getsome feedback on it too, because
(52:55):
I also really want to teach itso that it meets people where
they're at Like for people whoare natural writers, for people
who are not natural writers,because, unfortunately, that's a
skill you need in contentmarketing.
Anyways, this is what I want tobring into that space, and I've
never taught it before.
I've taught again, I've taughtbehind it, I've taught around it
, but I've never taught anactual.
(53:17):
This is the outline, these arethe actions, this is what it
could look like and this is howit'll serve you.
And so, yeah, people will get aglimpse of it in that.
Brooke Monaghan (53:27):
Yeah, and what I'm hearing in that too, which I
think is really exciting, isthat if you've been to workshops
that are focused on here's howto create content, effective
content and you felt like youwere left with a framework that
didn't actually meet you,there's space for discussion
around that and for flexibility.
(53:49):
It's not a here's what you'resupposed to do, good luck if you
can't figure it out, thenthat's not going to be that.
Tristan Katz (53:56):
No, because I'm thinking about myself.
Writing comes easily to me, soI can write the five core pieces
of content that then getrepurposed throughout the year.
I can do that probably in aweekend, but I'm thinking about
folks who writing doesn't comeeasily, for whatever reason.
Are you dyslexic?
Is writing not your jam?
(54:16):
How do I serve you?
I want to serve you too, and soI am.
It's cooking in my brain, but Ithink I can find a way in to
helping folks who don't want towrite still create something
meaningful.
Brooke Monaghan (54:31):
You got a glimpse of what it's like to
talk to a dyslexic person aboutInstagram feeds when I was at
your house.
Tristan Katz (54:37):
This is what I mean.
I do think about you and howyou really your experience on
the app now that I understand itbetter, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (54:43):
The slide starts with this and I was like
but what does it look like?
What size is the font?
And you're like I think it'slike a 12 point font and I was
like, no, no, no, I need to know, like, what it looks like so I
can find out the point.
Tristan Katz (54:58):
Like why do you need to know the font size?
How does that help yourdyslexia?
I don't understand that's sogood.
Brooke Monaghan (55:05):
Oh, Tristan, this is so fun.
[Tristan Katz] Likewise.
[Brooke Monaghan] Okay, I'mgoing to stop recording unless
you have anything else you wantto talk about.
I'm saying this a lot lately.
Nobody's studying yourmarketing content more than you
are.
Nobody's going to come into myDMs and be like, but you already
said this six months ago.
When I say it again and add theadditional thoughts,
reflections, depth to it, it'slike if somebody was served by
it the first time, well then,they're going to be served by it
even more this time.
Brooke Monaghan (00:30):
Hi friends, welcome to another episode of
Make your Business Work For You.
We are back with a late episodethis week because if you are
not up to date from my Instagramor from my newsletter, you
might not know that last week Ilost my 14 and a half year old
dog, Socrates, who was just thesweetest and just my baby.
(00:52):
For a long time I have wonderedif I would be able to survive
that day, and it happened.
And as a result of that, Ichanged some things up.
One of those things being thaton the day that I was going to
edit and get this episode up, Idecided I needed rest more than
I needed to keep the podcast ontrack.
So we're a little bit late thisweek.
Now, in addition to that, Ihave also moved some things
(01:16):
around for myself to give myselfsome more space, because, when
I tell you, the grief isexhausting, oh my God.
So, with that, Fruition GrowthNetwork is not going to be
launching until November, andthat means that the workshop
that we reference in thisepisode is not actually
happening in October anymore.
It's going to be happening onNovember 28th.
I decided to still air thisepisode now because, to be
(01:39):
honest with you, it's just areally needed episode.
I'm interviewing Tristan Katz.
Tristan uses they and hepronouns.
Tristan's one of my favoritepeople on the face of the earth.
If you have been around for anyperiod of time, then you've
probably heard episodes that wehave recorded.
You've probably heard me shoutthem out left and right.
This particular episode cameafter Tristan and I got on a
(02:00):
call together because I have theprivilege of being on a Tristan
and I text each other aboutbusiness stuff constantly and so
we jumped on a call togetherand we were talking about some
of the things that they weregoing through and kind of where
their work is going, and as aresult of that call, it was like
okay, like we need to talkabout this part of your work on
(02:23):
the podcast because it's just,it speaks just spot on to so
many of the marketing strugglesthat I know many of us are
having right now.
Also I was at Tristan's houselike the week before we recorded
this.
We were going to record it inperson while I was there
(02:44):
visiting, but we decided wewould prefer to drink daiquiris
in their backyard.
So you will hear me referencethat as well.
A couple of helpful thingsbefore we get into this episode.
First of all, I'm putting linksto a couple of past podcast
episodes that Tristan and I havedone together so that if you
want to hear more from Tristan,that's another place where you
can go, if you kind of like thevibe of this conversation.
Also if you go to Applepodcasts and you just search for
(03:08):
Tristan Katz, I would also justsay, if you're a podcast
listener, like there's someoneyou want to hear more from, go
to Apple podcasts and search forthe person's name and you're
going to get a whole bunch ofepisodes that they've been in.
That's a great way that you canhear more from Tristan as well,
or anyone else that you hearabout on the show.
Also, I am using chaptermarkers.
I don't know if you use chaptermarkers, listener, but there's
(03:32):
a good chance that, whateverplayer you use, there's actually
a spot now where you can pullup markers of like what is
covered at different time stamps.
So if you found this episodereally helpful or any of the
future episodes that we do andthere are specific things that
you want to come back to, itshould make it easier for you to
(03:53):
go ahead and come back to those.
Also, you could go ahead andpull those up ahead of time and
jump to parts of theconversation that are relevant
to you, so I just wanted topoint that out because they're
there and I know that I neveruse that function and so, in
case you didn't even know it wasa thing, they're there now you
can go ahead and look for those.
(04:13):
I'm also doing extended shownotes for these episodes now,
which will become available soon, and so you can always go to
joinfruition.
com if you want to dive into anyof the resources or links that
are shared for each of theepisodes, starting with this one
, and if you are enjoying theepisodes so far and you have not
(04:36):
yet left a rating and review onApple podcasts, please, please,
go ahead and do so.
It helps out a lot.
One of the long term plans forFruition is that we are funding
some of our programming throughsponsors, and so getting this
out to as many people aspossible is a really important
thing for this show,specifically given that we would
(04:57):
like to use some of thatfunding to subsidize support for
some small business owners.
So thank you for helping us out.
Let's talk about effective,meaningful, sustainable social
media marketing with TristanKatz.
It's nice to see you, eventhough I was just in your house.
Tristan Katz (05:21):
Yes, actually, this is true, I agree.
I feel like the other you werehere, than there.
Brooke Monaghan (05:27):
Me too, me too.
So I feel like we have torewind in time, and a lot has
happened since this conversation, but I don't know how many
weeks ago it was.
We had a whole conversationabout your work and about the
way that you it actuallyoriginally started as thinking
(05:47):
of an offer.
Tristan Katz (05:49):
Actually, can I back up a minute?
Because it originally startedwith me obsessively spiraling,
studying other people'smarketing and business models
and texting you about my spirals, and you were like you want to
hop on a call and I can just askyou some questions about what
you're experiencing, and I waslike, yes, thank you.
Brooke Monaghan (06:10):
Yes, yes, and then that call was like a couple
hours long.
Yes, and it was great fun forme anyway.
And I feel like initially wegot on that call because you
were thinking about some kind ofmentorship program kind of
thing or some kind of like.
Maybe there's like a groupprogram in here, maybe there's a
different offer.
Tristan Katz (06:30):
Yeah, I feel like we got on the call because I was
looking for the capital Aanswer yet again and thought
that maybe you'd find it thistime and give it to me.
Surprise.
You actually did.
Just not in the way that I washoping for or expecting.
Brooke Monaghan (06:44):
But this is the thing.
If anybody who's listeningdoesn't already know me, you
should know that I am theanti-capital A answer person.
But the reason why is because Iactually think that, to get as
close to that as possible,there's lots of sirens happening
.
I'm not sure how much of thatyou can hear.
I don't hear it at all.
(07:05):
Great, to get as close to theanswer as possible, you need to
take your eye off of trying tolook for it, because it leads
you away from your own ideas.
Tristan Katz (07:19):
Yes, and I was looking for it so hard that I
thought that I could find it bylistening to somebody's podcast
episode all day long, every day,or like studying somebody's
gross program.
Brooke Monaghan (07:35):
Yeah.
Tristan Katz (07:35):
Yeah, and I was looking outward to find the
answer and you helped mereorient and turn someplace else
.
I don't know what you did, butyou did some witchery magic.
Brooke Monaghan (07:47):
Yeah.
So then we discovered that youhave a whole process around
content creation that you use inyour own business, and that
also seems like it could havefilled almost a hole in your
offers.
Tristan Katz (08:04):
Yes, it was something you helped me see that
I have a process that I haven'tbeen -- I've been teaching, but
not.
I've been teaching around it.
I've been teaching about it butnot teaching the process.
Brooke Monaghan (08:16):
Yes.
So the part that I keep comingback to when I think about this
conversation is the part whereyou were like, yeah, like all
that I do is I just have like,basically this whole bank of
content and I'm just likerecycling it all the time.
Tristan Katz (08:33):
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (08:34):
And that's actually what I would want to
help other people do, and ifthey could do that, like it
would be so much moresustainable.
And I was like wait, a second,hold on, hang on, because we've
all heard about repurposingcontent and that's part of this.
But really I think that whatyou are getting at is like first
(08:55):
you develop like a meaningfulcontribution, right, like you
first get clear on like what itis that you want to say.
And in there too, there's likeall of this work that you've
done around, like how do we usemarketing as almost a form of
activism?
How do we market our work andalso move social change, like
(09:15):
through the messaging and all ofthat, like how can we do all of
that at the same time?
Yeah, so it's like that's allnested into the process that you
use for content creation.
And we were just able to kind ofget clear on it.
And you are going to beteaching a workshop which is
going to be free in October inFruition, kind of around this
(09:38):
concept, and so I kind ofthought maybe we could talk
about it, because I thinkeverybody listening is like okay
, tell me more, because that'swhat I want to do.
Everyone keeps saying thatrepurposing content is so easy
and I keep trying to do it andit's not doing anything.
So it's like what are thedifferences, you know?
Tristan Katz (09:55):
Yeah, that's such an important question because it
isn't as simple as just like gorepurpose everything.
I think the point is you haveto find the pieces of content
that are your maybe like coremessages and I'm not just saying
core messages, because it'slike it's like both.
It's like, yes, your coremessages, like the things you
(10:16):
want to say, some of theanchoring like concepts that you
teach in your work.
It's that.
But it's also like looking backto see what worked in your
marketing.
So I feel like what I'm doingwhen I repurpose my content and
I'm not just talking about liketrying to fill in the missing
pieces, but like repurposingwith the intention of having
(10:38):
something actually make a-- Likethere's a difference between
like posting to fill spacebecause you have to say
something, and then postingbecause you've got something
that's really juicy andpotentially going to make an
impact.
And I feel like when I thinkabout posting somebody something
that's really juicy andactually going to reach people
and make an impact, I have tolook back at what has worked
(11:00):
well.
So what I am normally doing islooking back for the last two to
three years at all the contentI've posted on Instagram, for
example, and like pulling outthe four or five typically
carousel slides that have gonemore viral.
I'm putting that in quotesbecause I think viral is like
kind of a garbage concept andand really like based on like
(11:21):
audience size and like a wholeyou know a bunch of different
things like you can go viralwith you know whatever.
It doesn't have to be this big,huge, you know mind blowing
thing that happens, but anyways.
Brooke Monaghan (11:33):
And also nobody wants to talk about how, when
you go viral, suddenly you haveto field the whole bunch of
assholes in your comments andlike deal with a whole bunch of
bullshit that you never evenwanted to deal with and a bunch
of people are now looking atyour shit who you don't actually
want to be engaging with andall that.
Tristan Katz (11:49):
No, yeah, no.
The goal is not to go viral.
By the way, when you go viral,that's not the answer either.
Right like that and fulltransparency.
I feel like, in this zoom callthat you and I had for two and a
half hours, part of theconversation was me being like.
But these people on Instagramhave hundreds of thousands of
followers Brooke, and why don'tI have hundreds of thousands of
followers?
And if I only did, then maybethat would be the answer to like
(12:12):
all of my financial stabilityand business problems right,
yeah.
And we know that's not the case.
Like, if you dig into it, thenarrative is if you have this
many followers, you are fine.
I don't think that's what'sactually happening, and so
people are engaging withmeaningful or like impactful
content, but they're notnecessarily clicking through to
your website and so, yeah, I.
(12:34):
But that means we just need tobe putting out more.
To me.
And I'm not saying more emptyshit, I'm saying more consistent
, meaningful stuff, which is whythe repurposing thing is so
crucial, because if I create onelike solid carousel slide post
and I'm talking about likegetting really concise, not
(12:58):
being too wordy, like making thegraphic look like good, like
one solid carousel slide, Ithink can be turned into like
fricking 20 pieces of additionalcontent.
Yeah, and that's the part Iwant to get at is like, if you
can figure out what works and Isee a lot of folks like trying a
(13:20):
lot of text or like the designis missing something, like we
have to narrow down all of thesedifferent approaches, [Brooke
Monaghan] I just like sm ackedmy mic in my excitement of
writing something down.
Brooke Monaghan (13:35):
[Tristan Katz] I'm rambling now.
[Brooke Monaghan] No.
So I'm hearing you talk aboutwhat works, and what's coming to
mind for me is something thatand I'm going to link to past
podcast episodes that you and Ihave done right for other
podcasts, because I think we'vetalked a lot about this.
But in case people are justhearing us talk about this for
the first time, or you talkabout this for the first time,
(13:56):
one of the things that's reallyimportant here is that you,
Tristan, are very intentionalabout creating community and
having real relationships withpeople, and I think that that's
why you are able to look at yourstats of quote, unquote, what
works and then choose, based onwhat works, what you're going to
repurpose and have it not behollow, because for you, what
(14:16):
works is aligned with whatmatters to you and it's aligned
with what your meaningfulcontribution to the field is,
because of the fact that you'vebeen very intentional about
creating an actual community andactual relationships with
people.
So it's not just conversionrates.
[Tristan Katz] No [BrookeMonaghan] It's people are
(14:36):
responded.
People in my community areresponding to this in a way
where it's clear that they needto hear this again.
[Tristan Katz] Yes.
[Brooke Monaghan] And that, Ithink, is like a really
important, like foundation tounderstanding how you approach
this differently from maybeother people who are just
(14:59):
looking at okay, well, you dothis because it works.
It might not be aligned withvalues or it might not be
aligned with what the meaningfulcontribution to the field is,
but it works, so let's just keepdoing it.
Which creates, recreatesbusiness as usual.
So I'm almost thinking like, dowe need to?
I don't know, Tristan, right onyour thing, next to you,
(15:20):
creating community in your thing, because I'm like the whole
thing doesn't really actuallywork without that part.
Tristan Katz (15:28):
I'm just I did write it down creating community
, because I am really in inquirylike what does it actually mean
, though, to create community onsocial media?
So I hear what you're sayingand I'm like I'm agreeing with
you.
I'm like, yes, everythingyou're saying is true.
I've done that, I'm puttingthat in quotes, but I'm also
like I only, I only follow.
I think I'm at 700.
(15:49):
I keep trying to get the numberdown.
I think I'm following 715people.
If I'm only following 715people, How am I, I'm like tell
me, though?
How do people what kind of?
Do you see what I'm saying?
Brooke Monaghan (16:05):
Because I think that people are finding you.
This is a conversation we'vehad before.
You're a person who I look toas an example of okay, and this
is part of what I was reallyhoping to communicate to you
when we were talking about the"but why don't I have more
followers on Instagram?
Yeah, Because you, to me, arean example of how you can grow
(16:28):
your following on social media.
Not by necessarily going viralor being more visible on social
media, but instead by beingvisible in actual like community
spaces.
Tristan Katz (16:43):
I see what you're saying.
Yes.
Brooke Monaghan (16:44):
So people, I think, are finding you because
there are people who arereferring you, who have trust in
you.
They were at an event orsomething like that, like you're
very actively engaged with thepeople who I'm sure there's a
lot of people who follow you whohave not been in a space with
you in person, but I think thatthat's the thing that is
(17:06):
actually having people come andfind you.
Not necessarily the algorithm.
Tristan Katz (17:13):
I hear what you're saying and I agree with you.
Yes, yeah, and sometimes it'sthe algorithm, but that's not
what my main I don't know pointof connection is.
Brooke Monaghan (17:23):
Yeah.
Tristan Katz (17:26):
Yeah, thank you, that's an interesting
observation.
Brooke Monaghan (17:28):
Yeah, and also I would be interested.
I don't know, like I don't knowbecause you you're the person
who I look to as the person whodoes this so well.
So like I would be curious ifyou really think about, like
what does that actually mean?
Or like, why is it?
Why is it that you, Tristan,are able to look at your
insights and go what performedreally well over the past few
years, and the things thatperformed well are things that
(17:49):
you actually want to keeprepeating?
Tristan Katz (17:51):
I mean, I do want to keep repeating them, but let
me also be clear I'm thinkingabout one post in particular
that I've reworked I don't know,maybe four times.
And also let me be clear thatwhen I rework these posts, it's
in part yes, it is in part torepurpose and put it out again,
but it's also in part to reflectthat over time, my
understanding of the thing thatI'm teaching about has changed,
(18:13):
right, and how I talk about ithas changed, and now I have new
things I want to say about it,or a corrected or updated
understanding about it, orwhatever.
And so an example is there's apost I probably put out I'm
guessing, twice a year on womenwith an X.
It's not just on womxn with anX, right, it's on the way we
relate to language, how we canbe inclusive with our language,
(18:35):
but how we can be performativeand non-inclusive with our
language.
It's a commentary on theobsession that we have with,
like, if I could just get theword right, then it'll mean that
I'm the good person and peoplecome into my space and I'll be
safe, right.
So it's that kind of post.
But the title slide is focusedon women with an X and that gets
(18:58):
people in to the largerconversation.
You know what I'm saying.
And so am I excited to keeptalking about women with an X?
No, am I.
Do I want to keep talking aboutit every single day?
No, do I want to talk about itseveral times a year?
I don't know.
But I'm excited to make animpact.
And it seems that people stillneed to hear about inclusive
(19:23):
language and the way we'rereinforcing, you know, the
gender binary with our language,or cis-heteronormativity or
whatever.
And people are still having aconversation about, like, what
keywords do I use in my work?
Like, how do I talk about who Ispecialize in and niche down
and whatever the hell.
And so, to me, am I excited tokeep talking about it?
Not necessarily, but I know theconversation needs to keep
(19:43):
happening.
Right, and I do want to be apart of that conversation.
So I don't know if that makessense, but it's not like I'm
like, yeah, I can't wait to dothis again, you know.
Brooke Monaghan (19:53):
Yeah, no, I totally get it.
I just think about like I don'tknow if you've gotten, the more
that I talk to people about theads that I get, the more that I
realize how different ourexperiences are because of the
fact that the fucking algorithmknows what we respond to better
than we even do and the way thatour brains work makes it so
(20:13):
that we get targeted withdifferent shit.
But I've started getting thisparticular flavor of ad where
it's this really weird videothat has nothing to do with the
thing that the person is saying.
So, for example, you know thatbrand of that particular flavor
of video where it's like someonelike icing a cookie.
(20:37):
Do you know what I mean andit's like you just want to watch
it.
You're just like this issatisfying to watch.
Or the hydraulic press videos.
Do you ever watch the hydraulicpress videos?
[Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Okay, there's this whole seriesof videos.
You should go on YouTube andlook it up after this.
There's a whole series ofvideos where people just put
different things under thispress and you just watch it
(20:58):
smash it, and then there's likea spin off where people take
that and then they make a sideby side of them trying to
reenact what it looked like whenthat thing got smashed, and
wearing different outfits thatare the color of it, and they're
like contorting themselves in away.
That is like it's hilarious.
Anyways, anyways, I have apoint to all of this.
(21:19):
[I know you do.
[There's a certain type ofcompany brand person who's
literally looking at quoteunquote what works in terms of
what keeps eyes on a thing.
That's the way the algorithmworks.
Yes, and they're trying to gainthe algorithm.
(21:39):
So they're looking at oh, icingcookies really keeps people's
attention.
I'm going to put a video oficing cookies in my ad and then
over it there's going to becaptions and voice of me talking
about some fucking softwarethat has nothing to do with
anything.
Why?
Because it's going to keeppeople on it and that's going to
(22:01):
make it go in front of morepeople.
Whatever.
Right?
For you.
There is something that youhave done, which makes it so
that what works in your insightsis somehow aligned with impact,
and I think that that's comingfrom the fact that the people
who are finding you are findingyou for quote nquote the right
(22:23):
reasons?
Tristan Katz (22:25):
In wonder because part of what I hear you saying
in that and I'm reallyappreciating what you're saying
and what you're sharing and partof what I hear you saying is
there's people out there lookingat what works and using that
information to be manipulativein their marketing.
And I want to look at whatworks in my marketing and use
(22:45):
that to be meaningful, right?
Brooke Monaghan (22:49):
RBut how often is it that you look at what
works in your marketing andyou're like, oh, if I just
reworked this piece of contentor I guess maybe an example of
that would be okay.
The womn with an X cover slidegets people through the door, so
I'm going to use that and thenI'm going to hook people in with
(23:12):
that and then use the fact thatI have their attention to get
them to do something else asidefrom making an actual
contribution in the conversation.
Tristan Katz (23:23):
I mean, I guess what I want to say is, when I
look at what works, I thinkcontent, what's been working,
but also graphic design, becauseI think on Instagram, as a
visual platform, the design isreally important to pull people
in, and so I'm using like, I'mfocusing on the text and the
look and feel to see what works,and then I take that
(23:44):
information and filter itthrough what feels right for me,
like maybe what feels right ischanging the title slide
completely this time, because Idon't you know what I mean,
because whatever I've said lasttime doesn't feel good anymore,
or I'm tired of saying X, Y andZ, so I have to check in with
what still feels aligned for mein that moment, rather than
(24:08):
being like, well, I need toreach more people, so I'll just
think about what works and bemanipulative w information.
Right, Does that make sense[Totally.
Yeah, yeah, I really I wantthat's.
The thing is like.
I think a lot of what is taughtin the marketing space is super
manipulative and gross and someof it is super valuable and we
(24:29):
can use it skillfully ratherthan manipulatively and grossly.
Brooke Monaghan (24:32):
Yes, yeah, yes, great and so okay.
So, then, one of the thingsthat we had talked about is kind
of like what needs to happenfor you to actually even be able
to approach this in this way,like people aren't going to be
able to just like come into aconversation about repurposing
(24:53):
content and how to createmeaningful content without
having done the other work.
Y nodding very quickly, so just, I would like for you to just
say more.
Tristan Katz (25:01):
I mean, this is what I'm thinking about.
Like, how do I get folks intowhat I think are content pillars
, but not content pillars in theway that the marketing dominant
culture people talk aboutcontent pillars.
I'm not talking about, liketips and techniques, value posts
, whatever.
I'm talking about like, okay,when I think about my content,
(25:25):
well, inclusive language andlike sharing power with language
and using language as asolidarity tool that is
meaningful.
That's one of my contentpillars.
So, and then, like, maybeanother content pillar is I'm
laughing is like remindingpeople not to erase trans folks
(25:48):
in the conversation aboutabortion rights.
You know what I mean.
Like what I'm saying, what I'mdoing in my head right now is
I'm thinking back to the lastthree years of the content I've
put out and what has been reallypopular.
So it's not necessarily likewhat I talk about over and over
again, though sometimes thosetwo intersect and overlap.
I'm also thinking about whathas really made an impact in the
audience, owhatever.
(26:09):
And so then I take those piecesof content and for some reason,
my brain says, ideally, thereare five pillars that we work
with and those five pieces ofcontent like, if it's me and I'm
thinking inclusive language ortrans abortion access.
Of course, thinking about ourdear S Galante hi Steph, [hi
(26:30):
Steph If this doesn't get addedout, I'm thinking about Steph
and like the relationship thatshe talks about to self-care and
challenging systems ofoppression right and reclaiming
self-care outside of capitalismand white supremacy.
Like to me, she's got severalcontent pillars that relate to
that theme, or maybe it's justone, but like I can see easily,
(26:51):
like she's got some pillars,you've got pillars and again,
these aren't [Good to knowbecause I wasn't aware.
No, you definitely, and I'mlike, but it's not just like, oh
, these are the five things Italk about in my brand.
It's like these are the thingsthat I come back to over and
over again because I know myaudience needs to hear it.
And I csay it over and overagain in different ways because
I'm in constant relationship tothis thing and learning about it
(27:12):
, and so the next time I talkabout it, it's going to be even
more meaningful because it'sgoing to be more authentic with
where I'm at in my own learningor whatever a growth, and it's
going to come across differentlybecause I've changed in
relationship to it.
You're having a moment, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (27:30):
How could you tell?
Tristan Katz (27:33):
What happened?
Brooke Monaghan (27:37):
You saying you're in constant relationship
to it and so things have changed, and so it's like being able to
revisit this and add.
epth is part of what I'mhearing.
Tristan Katz (27:50):
Yes, and then each time you add depth, it's like,
first of all, nobody's going tocome back and say to me I mean,
maybe somebody will someday.
Tristan, you post about thistwo times a year.
I always am saying this a lotlately.
Nobody's studying yourmarketing content more than you
are.
Nobody's going to come into myDMs and be like but you already
(28:11):
said this six months ago.
And when I say it again and addthe additional thoughts,
reflections, depth to it, it'slike if somebody was served by
it the first time, well then,they're going to be served by it
even more this time.
And so I'm serving the sameperson over and over again, even
helping them integrate thislearning over time.
Brooke Monaghan (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, and I've had, because I'm even less
creative than you are.
I go back into my insights andI literally share the exact same
post again.
I don't even change anythingabout it.
Tristan Katz (28:48):
See, I don't think there's anything wrong with
that and I think it's going tobe more effective if we
repackage it.
Brooke Monaghan (28:59):
Right.
So oftentimes what I'll do isI'll share the same like graphic
and I change the caption that'swith it.
And when I've done that, thisis just to the point of people
coming and saying, oh well, youpost about this two times a year
.
I've done that before and hadpeople comment.
I remember this from the firsttime that you posted it.
Thank you so much for remindingme.
I've had that happen severaltimes so people might notice and
(29:21):
they might be like oh right,you know, like thank you so much
for bringing that up again,because the algorithm's not
going to.
Tristan Katz (29:31):
Right, they're not going to be like and now I'm un
following you because you saidthis six months ago yeah.
And maybe they will, but ifthat's the case, that's not
somebody you need to be inrelationship with.
Brooke Monaghan (29:39):
Yeah, so okay.
So I'm trying to keep myself ontrack and also let this go where
it wants to go, because part ofwhat I'm hearing in this
conversation is this parallelbetween the work that you do on
content creation and marketing,the work that you do on equity
(30:04):
and inclusion, the work that Ido on leading people away from
trying to find the capital Aanswer.
It's like the sigh of relief tome comes when you realize that
you can stop focusing on doingenough, and you can stop
focusing on doing all of theright things or going down and
(30:26):
being like, yep, I marketed mywork enough this time, or I
posted enough times this week,or I'm doing the marketing the
right way, when you can takeyour eye off of that and instead
focus on how are things landingwith people?
What's the impact that you'rehaving?
How is this affecting people?
Who are you showing up fortoday?
What do people actually need tohear from you?
How are you cutting through thenoise of all of that bullshit
(30:50):
and instead stopping people intheir tracks by having something
meaningful to say?
That, to me, feels so muchbetter in my body than being up
against how to do social mediathe right way and get people's
attention and keep up.
Tristan Katz (31:17):
I don't know why, it's easy for me.
First of all, I just want toname that.
I find social media marketingto be pretty easy for me.
I know that's not everybody'sexperience, but I think part of
the reason it's easy is becauseI kind of get out of my own way
a little.
I just think, instead ofthinking I've got to create this
(31:39):
perfect thing or I've got tomarket this this many yes, I do
come up with a loose plan forwhen I'm marketing something,
but then I kind of throw theplan out the window and have to
really go moment to moment.
I don't have it in me to be onInstagram today, so this launch
is not going to be what Ithought it was going to be.
Oh well, hopefully it works,hope I don't have to cancel the
thing.
By the way, all the time I haveto cancel the thing.
(32:02):
So, like you know, life happens.
But part of the reason I thinkit's easy for me is because I
have worked so hard to trydifferent things and in trying
different things over severalyears, I have learned this thing
(32:22):
, or I've noticed like thisthing works, this thing doesn't,
or I've been able to hear toolike yes, I thought I should
talk about X, Y and Z inmarketing this offer, this, this
product, this whatever.
But I'm hearing from clients orpeople right now that they're
talking about this thing instead, so I'm going to speak to that
thing instead because it doesstill feel aligned right, and I
(32:45):
think that's.
It's like holding it all reallyloosely, like yes, I have a
plan, yes, I know I need to postthis many times a week, but
like I'm just going to hold itall loosely and see what comes
through.
And part of that is lookingback and saying like, okay, if
I'm marketing this particularprogram, what kind of content
have I made over the last threeyears that can be repurposed to
meet to talk about this programand how can I repackage it in a
(33:06):
way that really pulls people infor this particular moment,
right?
Brooke Monaghan (33:10):
yeah, yeah.
One of the questions that I askpeople, especially people who
I'm just starting to work with,like in the very, very early
days of working together, is Idon't actually ask them actually
a ton of questions to get tothis which is what do you want
to hold firmly and what do youwant to hold loosely?
(33:33):
And what I'm hearing in this isyou're holding really firmly the
idea of having an impact andmoving certain ideas forward and
making a meaningfulcontribution, and then you're
holding really loosely the waythat you do that, or how to
(33:54):
experiment with that on socialmedia or otherwise, to move that
forward.
That's the experimental thing.
But the reason that you're ableto do this in a way that is
like effective and alsomeaningful and also, like you
know, the reason that you'reable to do that, I think is
because of the fact that, likeat no point have I ever I've
known you for I think like threeyears at this point and like
(34:16):
literally at no point have Iever seen you put out a hollow
post, because it's just like notwhat you do.
Tristan Katz (34:24):
No, if I want to do like a filler post and by
that I mean I'm like should Ineed to post something about
this workshop?
What should I say?
I want to make it meaningful, Idon't want to just make it, you
know, empty then I'm going topull one meaningful sentence out
of something I've written inthe past and that sentence goes
on a canva graphic.
So there's still substance,right?
(34:45):
Yeah, and part of this isbecause I learned really, really
early on that you can't justpost the marketing, the
straightforward marketing asset,like you can't just post the
workshop flyer, you can't justpost the podcast graphic.
You have to provide value ifyou're going to reach people, in
part because I think a lot ofus are like stop trying to sell
me.
(35:05):
Like Instagram has become likejust like sell, sell, sell,
pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch,pitch, pitch.
Sometimes I'm on Instagram andI'm like who else is even using
this app other than likebusinesses and entrepreneurs?
You know?
So how do you show that you'renot just there to sell people?
Because, yes, sure, you mightbe using Instagram for your
online business, which means youneed to make money, which means
(35:27):
you need to sell things.
And I think the orientation forme isn't the selling, it's the
awareness raising.
It's awareness raising aboutthe conversation I'm having and
it's awareness raising about myown work, which is a part of
that conversation, which is likeyou know, and when I approach
it as awareness raising, itcompletely, yeah, nothing is
(35:49):
just empty and meaninglessanymore.
Right, my whole, my wholeaccount is about awareness
raising on some level and to me,that is going to make a
meaningful impact.
And when people think, oh, Iwant to work with someone who
knows marketing from this lensor who teaches, like they'll
remember me because I've been intheir space, right, in a way
(36:09):
that isn't just about buy fromme, buy from me, buy from me,
buy from me.
That is not going to work.
Brooke Monaghan (36:15):
Right, right, yeah, and the way that you have.
You know, I think back on, andI say I think back on because I
no longer think about this shitanymore.
But you know the marketingbasics that you learn when
you're like just starting out,and it's like people need to
know, like and trust you.
[Tristan Katz] know like andtrust I fucking hate that shit.
(36:35):
Yeah, it does.
If you aim for kno like andtrust, it's gross.
[And I do think it's true thatpeople need to know, like and
trust you, but the way thatpeople actually know, like and
trust you, ristan, is because ofthe fact that you have
approached things not by tryingto get people to know, like and
trust you, but by doingmeaningful work.
Tristan Katz (36:58):
Yeah, that's the thing is like and I know I feel
like you and I have talked aboutthis before on a previous
episode that we recorded.
[Let's sagain.
it again yeah, I really thinkthat the no-light and trust
factor, which is like marketing101, is gross.
We've said that like four timesnow and it's also.
(37:19):
It exists as a marketing 101teaching for a reason.
Yes, I dthink we need tocultivate I'm putting this in
quotes the no-light and trustfactor.
I just want to see us do itfrom a place of genuineness and
authenticity and likemeaningfulness, and not from
manipulation or performance.
(37:40):
And I want to be clear I thinka lot of what we do, if not all
of what we do on social media onsome level is a performance.
But are we doing it forperformance sake or are we doing
it because it's genuine?
And then that mitigates thegrossness of the performance.
But I'm thinking of some ofthese like larger IG growth
(38:00):
people with like huge accounts,who talk about no-ligh and trust
and who are very muchperforming, and you can feel it
Like I feel like I don't knowthis person but like I think I'm
supposed to like and trust thembecause, look, they've got the
receipts to show that, liketheir clients make more X, Y and
Z right?
Well, I'm not, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (38:20):
I'm no Or they have figured something out that
I haven't figured out andthey're making it look like
things are really easy for them,or they've kind of found the
like magical key to whatever.
So I need access to them sothat I can get it too, because
this sucks.
Tristan Katz (38:36):
Yeah, but let me tell you because I'm still I've
got like two people in my headright now who I'm still
pedestalizing them, thinkingthey figured it out this online
business thing and thisInstagram thing.
And I know now because I paid asmall amount of money to get
into one of these spaces withthem to see what it was like and
the money was worth it for meto know, oh, this is gross.
(38:58):
It's like, yes, I can look atthis person's marketing, their
sale pages, their email, thesequence, the whole thing and be
like, wow, they really gottheir shit figured out.
I should look at this person, Ishould study with this person,
I should figure out what thisperson is doing.
But then I paid 90 bucks to getinto one of their challenges
and it was.
It was gross.
It felt totally gross.
Am I going to use some of thestuff they offered in the
(39:19):
challenge?
Maybe, but I mostly just paidto be like what's actually
happening there and in that r.
Brooke Monaghan (39:26):
Confirmation.
Yea Yeah, it's kind of like howI paid a lot more than that to
get a leadership coachingcertification, which I put off
for so long because I was likethese coaching certification
programs feel so gross to me.
But what if there is somethingin there that I don't know I'm
being irresponsible because Idon't know?
Okay, you know what.
I have the money, I'm justgoing to do it.
(39:48):
I did it.
I came out the other side and Iwas like you know what?
It actually is kind of cool tohave some of these PDFs to rely
on.
Tristan Katz (39:56):
ESometimes you just pay to get the PDF.
Brooke Monaghan (39:58):
Yeah, I know, oh, I actually do have a tool
that I paid an exorbitant amountof money for the rights to use,
but also the confidence walkingaway of being like, oh my gosh,
I can trust myself because Iactually already knew all of
this stuff and actually there'ssome things that they say to do
that I know from my experience,I'm never doing.
Yes, I trust myself morebecause of that, yeah.
(40:20):
So, yes, I have a questionabout sustainable social media,
because this is something thatyou talke about a lot and the
repurposing is definitelysomething that allows it to feel
more sustainable, and I thinkpeople talk a lot about
repurposing as like kind of thisgolden ticket to s sustainable
(40:44):
social media.
I'm curious for you One of thethings that I find makes the way
that people market themselvesunsustainable is that sometimes
people will do things simplybecause of the fact that they've
been promised it would work,and put themselves through doing
(41:07):
it not because it feels goodfor them, not because they
understand that it's going tomake an impact, not because it's
tied to some deeper purpose,but because that's what they
were told they needed to do.
And then, when it doesn't work,it's incredibly discouraging
because they just put themselvesthrough all of that which was
supposed to promise somethingand which promised something and
they don't get it.
(41:27):
And then it's like well, whatthe fuck?
Part of what I'm hearing fromyou is that, even if, in the way
that you market and in the waythat you teach marketing and
content marketing, even if thecontent doesn't sell a thing or
you don't hit a goal that youwanted to hit, if it's tied to
some deeper reason, if it's tiedto making an impact, then it
(41:51):
doesn't feel as draining when itdoesn't work, because you still
put something out there thatwas meaningful for you to say.
Tristan Katz (42:02):
Yes, and so I think and this is something I'm
trying to speak to more of andI'm not quite sure how to do it
yet but just to say that it'snot like I put out a post and
then the registrations just comeflying in.
You know what I mean.
It's not even a one-to-one.
It's not like one post, onesign up.
It's some weird otheralternative, like you can't map
(42:27):
it type equation, right.
And so to me putting out thepost to move registrations
forward for a particulartraining or something it's like
yes, I am putting out the postbecause I'm in this marketing
timeline and I need to drawawareness to this particular
training, but I'm also justputting out the post for it to
exist on my profile or for it toexist in the world, and to me,
(42:52):
if it's more meaningful orvaluable, then it's going to get
shared more right or saved more, and that's especially the
sharing could lead to moreregistrations or awareness of my
work.
But I'm not waiting.
I did have a time and there wasa time, I actually think maybe
in early COVID in 2020 where youput it, I put out a post and
(43:14):
the registrations would come in.
I remember I released an e-bookin 2020 and people bought it
like immediately right.
Yeah, we're at a different pointnow in 2023.
And I don't see it being likeit was in early 2020 with, like
this, like thirst for onlineprograms or thirst for online
resources.
We're at a different placewe're, like, oversaturated and
(43:34):
tired and we want to be inperson as much as we can those
of us who have access to do soand so it's just the market has
changed, right, like the way weengage with stuff has changed,
and to me, that means thatactually it's my job, like
literally to put even more valueinto what I share and to make
(43:58):
what I share actually meansomething.
Did that speak to what you weresaying?
Because I feel like I got offtopic a little.
Okay.
Brooke Monaghan (44:07):
Yeah, totally did.
And it's something that I thinkis like like for people who are
listening if you've been doingwhat you're doing for a long
time and you feel like thethings that you used to do, that
used to work, aren't workinganymore, that is that.
That is yeah, that's the waythat it is right now.
Tristan Katz (44:29):
Yeah, and this is part of why I started like
looking for the answer again.
Right, yeah, because I was likesomething's not working.
It's not just that I've takenan exorbitant amount of time off
this year.
It's like, for example, I'mteaching a sustainable social
media training.
Three years ago, maybe even twoyears ago, you put those three
words on a graphic and put thaton Instagram and I bet people
(44:51):
would have signed up immediately.
Right?
Sustainable social media?
Yes, and I thought that thatwould be the case right now.
Doesn't everybody want to talkabout sustainable social media?
Aren't people going to beclamoring to get into this
program?
I'm not seeing that.
It doesn't mean it's not needed.
I'm just I have to check myself.
It's a different landscape,it's a different time.
So that was part of why you andI got on the call, too was
(45:12):
because I was like what am Imissing?
Like am I not leveraging myrelationships or my existing
network?
Like should I be marketingthings in this way?
People are like maybe I need tobe on YouTube.
Like the moment has changed,and so a lot of us are still
trying to figure out, like, howdo we make it work in this new
moment when, to your point, whatworked three years ago is no
(45:33):
longer working, and I don'tthink it's as simple as well,
Instagram is done or like thatdoesn't work anymore.
Or you know, build a salesfunnel and work on your
newsletter list, like I thinkit's some mysterious combination
of both, like trying lots ofdifferent things and holding it
(45:55):
all really loosely.
Yeah, I'm also just thinkingabout like you know.
Part of what I was thinking wasyou know, I don't have like a
sales funnel set up, andsometimes I subscribe to
people's newsletters just to seehow they use their newsletter
marketing and I can see, forexample, I'm watching somebody
(46:19):
promote a particular likeintensive, and I got an email
almost every day for a wholeweek from this person as they
were promoting it, and I waslike, huh, this is working for
them, though.
This is a tried and true model.
They keep doing it.
They keep saying they keepthese emails are like scheduled
way in advance, like I can, Ican tell you know, and so I'm
like they figured it out.
(46:40):
They figured out to sell thisintensive, they need to send
this many emails and they needto post this many times, or
whatever the hell it is.
I don't know.
It's working and I don't wantto spend time on sales funnels.
Brooke Monaghan (46:51):
Yeah.
Well.
Also, though, what's sointeresting about that is that
that kind of gets into thisthing that happens in the
business development space,where the perception is, oh,
this is working and so I shouldtrust this person.
But how much of it is workingjust because you have the
perception that things areworking?
Tristan Katz (47:13):
And this is the other thing that I loved and I
know I'm being a littlemysterious because I'm talking
about online coaches and notnaming anybody.
Happy to name everybody thatI'm thinking of, but the one
person I'm thinking of right nowthe perception is it's working.
And then they posted in theirstories a photo of the Zoom room
(47:33):
after the intensive started,and so I could see how many
people showed up live to thatfirst session, and it was a
small group.
So it wasn't like the Zoom roomwas 50 people, 25 people.
It wasn't a full Zoom screenand so is it working?
And then immediately in my headI was like, ok, so they sold
let's just say this many spots,and I know the rate for the
(47:54):
program.
How much money is that?
Ok, if they do that two times ayear.
I was like, oh, it is working,but it's not working in the way
my brain says.
They probably have so manypeople in that program.
My brain says, oh, and thisemail funnel that they've
created, the sales funnel thatthey've created, they're nailing
it, they're knocking it out ofthe park.
They've got 10 people in theZoom room.
Brooke Monaghan (48:12):
But also.
Ok, so let's say there were 50people in the Zoom room.
If the additional 40 that we'reimagining joins because they
had a perception that thingswere working, that's not going
to replicate to other types ofbusinesses.
(48:33):
It might replicate if you areselling stuff about marketing or
if you're selling stuff aboutbusiness development and you're
trying to build trust, as I am aperson, but if you are a health
coach, if you're a yoga teacher, if you're a, that's not going
to replicate because no onegives a fuck about your sales
funnel.
Tristan Katz (48:52):
No.
Brooke Monaghan (48:53):
So if you're there to learn a skill that you
can take and apply to adifferent type of business, it's
just something to be reallyaware of and it's entirely
possible that it could beworking for them, and it's
working for a reason that is notgoing to replicate in your
business.
Tristan Katz (49:12):
Yeah, and the other thing I want to say on
this topic is that my brainwants to say working means this
many numbers, this many people,this much money.
And I would like to challengethat thought process.
Because to me, three peoplemight be it's working.
And I'm thinking a conversationthat I've had with somebody in
(49:34):
your spaces who said to me well,I've only gotten five students
in this program that I've beenmarketing for a really long time
and I was like that's a success, like five people consistently,
they're coming consistently.
That is completely a success.
Is it the goal financially thatyou had for the program?
No, but it's a different kindof success, because we're not
(49:55):
like it's not going to be likethis is the program.
This is the answer again, Ithink and this is one thing that
I'm constantly learning throughyou is how do we diversify our
offerings?
Not because it's the rightthing to do, but because, or
rather it's what you should doas a business owner.
It's like how do we diversifyour offerings to make our work
(50:16):
accessible for people with wherethey're it's more oriented
towards, like I want to serveyou and I know you've got this
much money and you've got thismuch money and you want somebody
to hold your hand, but you wantsomebody to do it for you, and
so I'm going to create all thesedifferent pathways to make my
work accessible, so more peoplecan access it.
Brooke Monaghan (50:35):
Right, yeah, yeah, I'm realizing.
I'm remembering the thing thatI was going to say before, when
we were talking about how thingsused to work in 2020 that don't
work now.
The story that I always tellmyself just in case anyone who's
listening tells themselves thestory, too is that it's because
of my inner landscape at thetime.
I was so motivated and I was sointo my work and I was so fiery
(51:00):
and was just writing in a waythat was so resonant, and I need
to figure out how to get myselfthere again and not just be who
I am now.
Tristan Katz (51:09):
Right, because now you're not motivated or engaged
in your work, or fiery, no fire.
I see you having zero fire.
Brooke Monaghan (51:17):
Thanks, thanks for the reminder.
Yeah, and I know that peopletell themselves that, like a lot
of it, it's like because of thefucking prosperity gospel and
shit about if you just figureout how to align yourself in
such a way, then things are justgoing to click for you.
(51:38):
And so if things aren't workingnow, but they were working
before and well, of coursethings felt good when they were
working, but it's so easy totell yourself the story that it
was because you got yourself tofeel a certain way that things
started working, and then it'sjust yeah.
Tristan Katz (51:50):
I mean, I've got the.
It was working in 2020 and 2021because I was overworking.
[Brooke Monaghan] I know[Tristan Katz] Right, so like
that wasn't working, though,right?
Like sure, the business wasworking, but I was overworking,
so that wasn't working.
Brooke Monaghan (52:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So you are going to be teachingworkshop on this topic.
It is going to be free inFruition, so anybody who wants
to come can come, and you'regoing to be going deeper into
this and providing support forpeople who want to start
approaching their content inthis way, and so this is
(52:28):
everybody's invitation.
Is there anything more that youwant to say about that, or
anything that we didn't talkabout that you want to leave
people with?
Tristan Katz (52:34):
I'll just say that I think what I'm going to plan
for that workshop is offering ataste of this framework that I
am developing, that Brooke haskind of literally coached me
into understanding that I'mdeveloping it and I want to
bring in a glimpse of theframework and make it accessible
for folks to play with and getsome feedback on it too, because
(52:55):
I also really want to teach itso that it meets people where
they're at Like for people whoare natural writers, for people
who are not natural writers,because, unfortunately, that's a
skill you need in contentmarketing.
Anyways, this is what I want tobring into that space, and I've
never taught it before.
I've taught again, I've taughtbehind it, I've taught around it
, but I've never taught anactual.
(53:17):
This is the outline, these arethe actions, this is what it
could look like and this is howit'll serve you.
And so, yeah, people will get aglimpse of it in that.
Brooke Monaghan (53:27):
Yeah, and what I'm hearing in that too, which I
think is really exciting, isthat if you've been to workshops
that are focused on here's howto create content, effective
content and you felt like youwere left with a framework that
didn't actually meet you,there's space for discussion
around that and for flexibility.
(53:49):
It's not a here's what you'resupposed to do, good luck if you
can't figure it out, thenthat's not going to be that.
Tristan Katz (53:56):
No, because I'm thinking about myself.
Writing comes easily to me, soI can write the five core pieces
of content that then getrepurposed throughout the year.
I can do that probably in aweekend, but I'm thinking about
folks who writing doesn't comeeasily, for whatever reason.
Are you dyslexic?
Is writing not your jam?
(54:16):
How do I serve you?
I want to serve you too, and soI am.
It's cooking in my brain, but Ithink I can find a way in to
helping folks who don't want towrite still create something
meaningful.
Brooke Monaghan (54:31):
You got a glimpse of what it's like to
talk to a dyslexic person aboutInstagram feeds when I was at
your house.
Tristan Katz (54:37):
This is what I mean.
I do think about you and howyou really your experience on
the app now that I understand itbetter, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (54:43):
The slide starts with this and I was like
but what does it look like?
What size is the font?
And you're like I think it'slike a 12 point font and I was
like, no, no, no, I need to know, like, what it looks like so I
can find out the point.
Tristan Katz (54:58):
Like why do you need to know the font size?
How does that help yourdyslexia?
I don't understand that's sogood.
Brooke Monaghan (55:05):
Oh, Tristan, this is so fun.
[Tristan Katz] Likewise.
[Brooke Monaghan] Okay, I'mgoing to stop recording unless
you have anything else you wantto talk about.
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