December 12, 2023 • 43 mins
Running a business often reveals things to us that we didn't even know about ourselves. We are forced to look at our patterns and growth edges, what is holding us back from our goals, and who we are as a leader. In this tension, it is critical that we are able to get curious about how we can move forward differently and not fall back into old habits. This is where mindful self compassion comes in.
In this episode, Kristen Genzano (she/her), shares the pillars of mindful self compassion and how we can use it as a tool for both growth and greater ease.
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Episode Transcript
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Brooke Monaghan (00:09):
Hello and welcome back to another episode
of Make your Business Work ForYou.
I am Brooke Monaghan.
I use she and her pronouns.
Today's episode is long awaited.
I'm chatting with KristinGenzano, who also uses she and
her pronouns.
She's a therapist and the ownerof North Star Therapy
Collective, and Kristen and Ihave been talking honestly maybe
for years at this point aboutrecording an episode together.
(00:31):
Back when I had my otherpodcast that I was running, we
kept talking about doing it andnever did, and we really wanted
to talk about why therapy is soimportant for business owners.
And I'm finally getting Kristenon here to talk about this, as
well as mindful self-compassion,as a tool for us to sit in the
(00:53):
resistance and discomfort thatarises when we are on the
precipice of growth.
And I know that for you, assomebody who listens to podcasts
like this one, you probablyknow full well that growth is
uncomfortable.
We want it and we also don'tlove what it takes out of us.
So if you're looking for a wayto make that a little bit easier
(01:15):
and stick with it, I think thattoday's episode will be really
helpful for you.
Kristen is also going to berunning our free January
workshop in Fruition GrowthNetwork.
This one will be on mindfulself-compassion, and we would
love to have you there so youcan head to join fruition.
com to create your free accountand then head to the community
events tab to register for allof the upcoming events you want
(01:39):
to come to.
The contributor workshops likethis one were intended to and
eventually will be part of apaid membership.
And, to be honest with y'all,my capacity has been so limited
right now that I have decided toput off launching that paid
(01:59):
membership and just make thesethings free so I can get as many
people through the doorchecking out what we have going
on.
So take advantage of that andcome to our free workshops.
Again, you can head to joinfruition.
com, create a free account.
Once you're in there, you'regoing to go to the community
events tab and also check outwhat else we have going on in
there, you can ask questions forexpert contributors.
That's where you can submitquestions for the show.
(02:20):
I'm in there responding toquestions, so come and hang out
with us, and we also have a fewother support options that are
available right now and you cancheck those out on our website,
join fruition.
com as well, including Bloom,which is a small group coaching
space that I run.
You can coach with me right nowfor under $100 a month y'all,
(02:43):
and that group is tiny because Ihave done just about zero
marketing around it, so I'm justdropping that here.
You want to get in before Iactually do a launch of the
thing, I would love to have you.
Okay, without further ado,here's my conversation with
Kristen.
I hope that you enjoy.
So you and I have talked a bitabout this concept of.
(03:15):
Actually, I think that we'vebeen talking for like over a
year at this point about why youneed to come on the show when I
was running my other podcast totalk about therapy as an
essential tool for businessowners.
This is something that I believein fully and I think that like,
in fact, I was just talkingwith a friend the other day
about how I'm, like if you canonly invest in one thing as a
(03:38):
business owner, like if you feellike you are getting in your
own way and you can only investin one thing make it a therapist
because it's going to help youdeal with, like the things that
are coming up in your businessare not just coming up in your
business, right?
And one of the things that wetalked about recently was that I
feel like a lot of theprogramming that people find
themselves in to help them withtheir businesses is actually
(04:03):
kind of like a way to avoidhaving to do some of the deeper,
harder stuff that comes up intherapy, and I'm wondering if,
like you, would share some ofyour thoughts on that.
Kristen Genzano (04:15):
As I say that, yeah, I mean I smile because I
think you're right on.
I think we do this in so manyareas of our lives, right, we
often look for ways to kind ofquasi deal with the issues.
It's like what can I do overhere that might kind of make the
deeper thing feel better,without actually addressing the
deeper thing.
And the challenge that comes up, I think, around that, is that
(04:38):
we end up maybe maybe investingin like I'll just use like self
improvement as an exampleinvesting in like 20 different
self improvement courses,because we're not actually
getting to the root thing.
That's there.
I have this phrase that Ilearned, kind of like the subtle
aggression of self improvement,and it's like we just kind of
looking, keep looking for thething to solve the deeper issue
(04:58):
without going yeah, does thatmake sense?
Brooke Monaghan (05:02):
Oh, it sure does.
I'm like we're already here,huh, yeah, I mean, I hear this,
and what comes to mind for me isthis feeling that if we could
just if we could just do selfimprovement the right way, then
maybe all this stuff wouldn'tfeel so hard.
(05:22):
Like that would be the answerto making things not feel hard,
if we could just figure out howto I don't know like manage our
mindset in just the right way,and that that might take the
hard out of it.
And what I have found to betrue is that actually it's
(05:42):
learning how to be with the hardstuff.
That is really the that'sultimately going to be on your
side, Like eventually you'regoing to find yourself in a
place where you're going to belike oh, there's no escaping the
fact that this shit is hard,which is why therapy.
Kristen Genzano (06:00):
Well, and Brooke, I think you're totally
hitting on something reallyimportant, like it's the
learning to be with the hardstuff, and I think that's why we
don't know how to be with thehard stuff and so that's why we
look to these other things totry to supplement and try to
like give us a way throughwithout going through.
And I think therapy if you'reable to find, like, the right
therapist for you, that you'reable to learn that skill of
(06:22):
being with yourself in thedifficulty, whatever that is for
you, because it's different forall of us.
Brooke Monaghan (06:27):
As we're having this conversation, I'm
realizing I'm like this.
So much of what we're saying isso obvious to me and I'm
wondering if it would help tokind of back some things up for
a second, because what I witnesshappen over and over again is
that and this is why I careabout entrepreneurship, right?
Like I don't care aboutentrepreneurship and small
business ownership because Iwant to help people grow massive
companies that's never been myreason for being here.
(06:49):
The reason why I care about itis because of the people who
find their way into it, andtypically what I find is that
the people who find me and mywork so probably the people
listening hello, listener,probably you, are people who
traditional work environmentsdidn't work for them.
For one reason or another.
It feels really soul sucking tobe in a traditional work
environment, and there's so manyreasons why that could be, and
(07:12):
so many of us decided that if wecould just work for ourselves,
then we wouldn't have to dealwith all of these things that
are coming up.
And then what we find as we'reworking for ourselves actually
oh shit, it's still there.
The same things kind of reartheir heads, and one of the
things that rears its head isthat we end up I'm saying we,
(07:35):
because I know this is not justme at this point.
I know from talking to so manybusiness owners that this is a
thing, that so many of us do,that and it's totally
understandable that we end upstarting our own businesses and
then we end up holding ourselvesto the same kinds of
expectations that our shittiestbosses did.
(07:55):
We also find that so many ofthe things that we were craving
probably pointed to somethingdeeper than just that we wanted
the freedom of working forourselves.
Like it pointed to some maybedeeper need, and just starting a
business is actually not aneasy fix.
No, not at all, not at all.
(08:19):
It's really hard, anyway.
So, as I'm saying all of that,what's coming up for you, I kind
of want to just open theconversation there and see what
thread you want to pull on.
Kristen Genzano (08:27):
Well, first of all, I feel seen and attacked,
but in a good way, I mean,called out maybe is a better
word, because I can reallypersonally relate as a business
owner to what you're sayingabout being in these traditional
work environments and thevarious things that just didn't
work for me.
And so, okay, let me step overhere and start my own business
(08:49):
as a way of getting away fromthese things and then finding
those same things showing up,maybe in a different way, but in
my business.
And so, yeah, there's this kindof parallel that I feel like
you're highlighting about theseways that we maybe again try to
kind of like sidestep the deeperwork and it's not the I'm not
(09:10):
saying that as a criticism.
Like I think this is a reallyhuman thing to do.
Brooke Monaghan (09:14):
Yeah, and also I will say that, like it's,
we're not going to changetraditional work environments.
Like nor do I think that that'sthe labor that a lot of people
who I work with I would notadvise them to try to invest
their labor in changing theirwork setting.
Get the fuck out of there.
Like I'm for it.
Kristen Genzano (09:33):
Right.
Totally, yeah, yeah.
But then it's that question oflike okay, when all that shit
starts showing up again overhere, now what?
Brooke Monaghan (09:44):
What do we do?
And so what I witness happenoftentimes and this is kind of
the reason why I had the otherpodcast that I used to have,
which was called Transcend YourDichotomy.
For anybody who's new here, hi.
I started talking a lot aboutthis concept of like, how we
start to feel like there's howwe actually want to function and
(10:08):
how we actually want to show upin the world, and then we have
this other version of us thatwe're holding ourselves to, who
we should be, who, what theresponsible version of us would
do.
That part, that where we holdourselves just threw my pen,
where we hold ourselves toourselves, to those.
That standard to me is where westart actually replicating some
(10:31):
of the things that we maybelearned somewhere along the way.
Right, and those, thosepatterns that are not actually
working for us, I think, startto show up and we start feeling
that divide.
And I'm wondering from you, Iknow that.
So one of the things that Ireally wanted to talk to you
about was this concept ofmindful self compassion, and it
(10:52):
sounds like one of the toolsthat you're saying could kind of
help with that, because I thinkthat so much of the work is
learning how to be with yourselfand then also be like building
the capacity to be in thetension of understanding
yourself and being with yourselfand what you need and also
(11:15):
moving toward growth, like sofucking, like hard.
It is so hard and mindful selfcompassion, it sounds like, is a
tool that could be reallyhelpful in that that maybe we
don't realize as part of whatwe're.
I think a lot of us are tryingto learn when we go through some
(11:36):
of the business programmingthat's out there, from this kind
of corner of, I'm going to say,the coaching space that is
trying to teach us how to bewith ourselves and be with our
businesses at the same time andmaybe not getting to those root
issues.
Kristen Genzano (11:51):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you bringing up
mindful self compassion.
I definitely want to talk aboutthat.
But can I jump on somethingelse you said first?
[Brooke Monaghan] Please.
[Kristen Genzano] So you usethe word tension, and I'm so
glad you did, because that'sexactly what I was thinking of
when you were talking about thiskind of like desire that we
have for ourselves and then thekind of old way of operating or
the learned way of operating,the reinforced way of operating,
(12:13):
and in my mind's eye, I justwas picturing those two pulling
like you know, sort of liketaffy or something like pulling
in opposite directions, and thattension that arises out of that
that pull.
And I had a therapist many yearsago who who taught me that it's
like from that tension thatsomething new arises.
Yes, it's from that tensionwhere growth happens.
(12:36):
Yes, and so it's again like notthe idea of trying to get
around that tension that'sactually holding in that tension
long enough for that new thingto emerge.
And I think that's kind of whatwhat you're, you're bringing up
mindful self compassion, likehow do that gives us maybe an
opportunity to learn how to holdthat tension long enough.
Brooke Monaghan (12:55):
I agree, [Kristen Genzano] For that new
thing to emerge.
[Brooke Monaghan] I agree, andI'm hearing you say that and I'm
like thinking about all of thetimes honestly, just over the
past month, week, maybe 24 hourshonestly but I've been like,
why is this so hard?
Because I certainly havelearned that like and of course
(13:15):
it comes up in business, butit's, with everything right.
That really the thing that I'minterested in in my life, like,
to me, one of the things thatmakes life worth living is like
moving toward a differentversion of things that actually
does feel supportive for me,that allows me to be who I
actually am but that also allowsme to I don't know like survive
(13:38):
, and dealwith some of the systems around
me and right, and, and yeah,when you were saying it's from
that tension that something newarises or that growth happens,
it's like that's where we canimagine a different way of doing
things and that's where wedon't actually have to choose
between what we were told we hadto do in that work environment
that didn't work, and just kindof throwing our hands up and
(14:01):
being like, well, I'm not goingto do any of that because that
doesn't work for me and I'm justgoing to follow what feels good
in this moment, knowing that,like, the systems are not
actually set up for to rewardthat, and so somewhere along,
and also that, like that's justa starting point and we don't
actually most of us find, aftergoing down that road for a
(14:23):
minute, that actually that's notit either.
Right, we need to imagine like anew possibility, a new way
forward.
No one else is imagining it forus, so we have to do it.
It only comes from beingwilling to sit in that tension
and it's really uncomfortableand I think that this brings
things full circle and I wonderwhat you think about this.
But I think that a lot of whatI see people trying to do in
(14:47):
their businesses is figure out away to make that tension not
exist.
Figure out a way to like.
Give me the right answer forwhat I can do.
That isn't what I was told theright answer was, because I know
that wasn't working for me.
But give me the right answer ofwhat I can do that will help me
kind of help make this easierand simpler and for me to not
have to sit in this tension anddiscomfort.
Kristen Genzano (15:08):
Yeah, I mean I know as a business owner myself,
that I am often by myselflooking for that answer.
I'm like, okay, if it's notthat, how do I get around this
in a different way?
Absolutely, because it's solike to your point, so fucking
uncomfortable to sit in that, inthat place of tension and that
place of figuring it out, Ithink, for yourself, like on
(15:29):
your own.
Maybe not on your own, I mean,we do this in community but like
figuring it out for yourself,which might probably look
different from the person nextto you, on either side of you,
even if you have similar values,even if you have a similar
business.
Your way is your way.
And I mean now my brain goeslike we're talking about like
self actualization, like we'retalking about like fully moving
(15:52):
into your full autonomy andauthority and not looking to
anybody else for answers.
Brooke Monaghan (15:57):
Let's talk a bit about the mindful self
compassion piece, because thisis something that I really want
to get into with folks and thisis something that I think you're
going to be speaking to a bitin Fruition in January.
So for folks who are listening,who are like, oh, I need to go
further down this road, or howdo I sit in that tension, where
do you see mindful selfcompassion coming into this as a
(16:19):
tool to help people be withthemselves and with their
business at the same time andthe hard things that are coming
up, and kind of?
I see this almost as a way ofbreaking this cycle of just
trying to find a way out of itand then finding yourself right
back in the same place.
Totally, yeah, absolutely.
(16:41):
It's almost like a tool formaking this into that spiral
staircase, versus just thatfeeling of going around in
circles.
Kristen Genzano (16:47):
Yes, yes, I love that image too, like how do
we shift this to that spiralstaircase where there's growth,
there's movement, instead ofjust a merry-go-round right?
So mindful self compassion is a.
I think of it as a coursebecause there are two
originators, Kristin Neff andChris Germer, who are Kristin
Neff is a mindful selfcompassion, she's a self
compassion researcher and ChrisGermer is a clinical
(17:10):
psychologist and a mindfulnesspractitioner, and the two of
them connected to develop out ofher research and his clinical
practice to develop a coursethat is not a substitute for
therapy, but it's an adjunct totherapy.
I think of it as like a skillsbuilding course almost, where
you learn, you're sort ofintroduced to mindfulness and
(17:31):
you're introduced to compassionand the way that to sort of
intertwine with each other, andthen throughout the typical
course is eight weeks long andthroughout that course you learn
actual skills of how to bringwell what self compassion is and
then how to bring selfcompassion to your experience in
the moment when you're inexactly one of these kinds of
(17:52):
situations.
There's two things that I thinkare really, really important to
business owners, and I'm goingto generalize a little bit here.
Disclaimer, I know all businessowners are not the same, but I
think a lot of business ownersare maybe on the perfectionistic
, overachieving side,potentially, and possibly
actually data suggests this aswell that there's a lot of
(18:14):
neurodivergence with businessowners, and so these two things
are two of the most wellresearched kind of areas that
self compassion serves as ananecdote to.
And this is because these twothings are often highly
correlated with shame.
Perfectionism and shame,neurodivergence and shame and
there's different reasons why,but there's a high correlation
(18:35):
there.
I'm going to pause because yourface suggests aha or some kind
of moment happening.
Brooke Monaghan (18:41):
You want to know that.
Okay.
So somebody who isneurodivergent and is currently
working through perfectionism ina big way I was actually given
a pass from my therapist lastTuesday to give my perfectionism
journal a break because it camein on Sunday in the mail and by
(19:07):
Tuesday when I saw my therapist, I was a good bit into it,
taking a very perfectionistapproach to trying to work
through it and get it done andfixed, and was like told her
that I had been swearing at itand I felt personally attacked
by it and I kept opening it andanswering a few questions and
slamming it closed and she waslike, maybe take it easy on the
(19:32):
journal.
And I'm like, but you told meto get the journal and you told
me that I had to right.
So as somebody who is very mucha perfectionist and I'm finding
out more and more about myselfthat this is like so it's like
one of the very firstexperiences that I can remember
is being in that perfectionismas survival kind of places.
(19:54):
As like a very small kid and isalso neurodivergent.
One of the first times that Iever went to therapy, my
therapist was like I wanna getmore into where all this shame
is coming from and I was likewhat are you talking about?
Shame?
I am a.
At the time, I had likelistened to every podcast
episode that Brené Brown everdid.
(20:14):
I had like listened to theaudio version of like so many of
her books.
I was like addicted to a personwho was researching shame and
it never once dawned on me thatthat was actually going on.
For me, it was like totally noton my radar.
So that's why my face is doingthat.
Because you were likeexplaining something to me where
I'm like wait a second, this isa thing that happens and you
(20:36):
know, we think we know ourselves.
Anyways, that's what's comingup.
Kristen Genzano (20:39):
Yeah well, thank you for sharing that.
I appreciate it very much and Ithink yeah, I mean I think so
the shame piece is so central tothese two experiences that,
like that you're sharing andthat I can relate to you.
I mean, absolutely, I identifyas a perfectionist and I'm
neurodivergent.
So, you know, I have personalexperience around these two
(21:01):
pieces too, and the thing thatself compassion does is it asks
us to treat ourselves the way wewould treat a friend, to offer
ourselves the same level ofkindness and compassion that we
would give a friend in the samesituation.
And when you're a perfectionistagain, I don't wanna just focus
(21:22):
on perfectionism because youknow this isn't just about that
issue, but because I do think itis so prevalent, not just for
business owners, but just as aproduct of our society when
you're a perfectionist, youstart to you often start to
think that I should exist inthis world in a way that is,
it's not human right, it'sperfect.
(21:43):
Humans are naturally imperfect,and so we hold ourselves to
these standards that areunattainable, and then, when we
don't attain them, we're hard onourselves and we don't know how
to be with ourselves in thatdiscomfort of not attaining the
standard that we think we haveto attain.
And so, again, with selfcompassion, we learn the skill
(22:03):
of okay.
Well, what would I say?
What would I say to Brooke ifshe came to me and said XYZ is
happening?
Okay, I would be so kind andunderstanding to Brooke, and yet
I'm over here criticizing thehell out of myself for this.
So how can I start to bringthat same level of grace and
kindness to myself that I wouldoffer Brooke?
(22:24):
Right, it sounds easy.
It's not easy in practice, it'sso not easy.
Brooke Monaghan (22:31):
It's so not easy, yeah, and I'm wondering.
There's like so many thingsthat are coming up for me.
The first thing is, as I ammyself working on untangling
this perfectionism, what thefirst thing that I realized is
that I'm ashamed of being alive.
At its root, I'm ashamed ofbeing in a human form.
(22:55):
The fact that I'm a human being, you know, like that itself is
like I should not exist as ahuman being.
I should be.
My therapist was calling mefairy Jesus, that I should be
like this little fairy thatoperates as Jesus, like that's
like the --
Kristen Genzano (23:11):
Love your therapist, by the way.
These are great.
Brooke Monaghan (23:12):
Yeah she's awesome.
That's the standard that I holdmyself to right.
So, as you're saying that it'sjust, I just want to say like
I'm hearing what you're sayingis like kind of mind blowing to
me, because it took me, howevermany years to get to that point,
of recognizing that myself.
Is there a link?
Do you think betweenneurodivergence and
perfectionism?
That, as somebody who'sneurodivergent, perfectionism
(23:35):
would become a thing that youwould look to as like a way of
kind of learning how to survivein these, in a neurotypical
environment?
Kristen Genzano (23:47):
Yeah, I think so.
I don't.
I don't.
I can't point to any data tosupport that.
I don't know the research onthat, but I think sort of from
my own experience and from myclinical work I can say that
that absolutely seems like alogical connection that
perfectionism can develop as acoping mechanism really for
being neurodivergent in a, in aneurotypical world.
Brooke Monaghan (24:09):
Yeah.
Kristen Genzano (24:10):
Absolutely yeah .
Brooke Monaghan (24:11):
And I would think also like okay, so we're
talking about a lot aboutneurodivergence, but I think
also like about people who inother ways dominant culture is
not on their side.
Kristen Genzano (24:23):
Yes, I'm so glad you're bringing that in.
Absolutely, because yes, we'retalking about neurodivergence
but we're talking about peoplewho are just sort of not in that
big center kind of you know.
You think of the bell curve,that that sort of mainstream,
and I think, yeah, absolutely itmakes sense to me that
perfectionism could develop outof being on those extremes.
Brooke Monaghan (24:45):
Being marginalized in some way.
Kristen Genzano (24:49):
Marginalized, exactly yeah.
Yeah, and then the shame thatcomes with perfectionism and or
the shame that can come withbeing marginalized yeah, because
that's another layer.
Brooke Monaghan (24:59):
Shit, Kristen, fuck, I'm like I had such a plan
for this conversation and nowit's happening.
As I'm just like processing inreal time, I'm like, yeah, of
course people who aremarginalized are going to be
feel ashamed of existing andhold themselves to a standard of
not being human.
Of course, of course, of course, and probably.
(25:23):
I've listened to 17 podcastepisodes on this exact topic.
This has been explained to meand right now it is finally
making sense in my body.
Hi, everybody, this is meprocessing in real time.
Okay, so mindful selfcompassion, if we're coming back
to this, yeah, first thing thatI want to say is, as you were
talking about treating yourself,the way that you would treat a
(25:44):
friend, one of the things thatalso came up for me is like, how
about this concept of like whenwe are in that traditional work
environment and we see the waythat management or whatever
treats people and we think, ohwell, if I were in charge, I
would do these things right?
And then you start running yourown business and you are like a
bigger asshole to yourself thanyour boss ever was.
(26:10):
So, suddenly we're back in that.
Oh, but when it's for me, Idon't actually behave that way.
Yeah, when it's toward me, Iactually hold myself to a
completely inhuman standard.
and so anybody who's like oh,I'm actually not a very good
(26:30):
boss to myself, hi, mindfulself-compassion is f At least I
think, does that feel f yea.
Kristen Genzano (26:36):
Absolutely yeah , without a doubt, because then,
if you have the opportunity todevelop those skills to be with
yourself in a more compassionateway, then you can start being
the boss to yourself that youwish you had, instead of a
bigger asshole than the one youactually had.
Brooke Monaghan (26:49):
Totally.
Kristen Genzano (26:49):
Totally.
Brooke Monaghan (26:51):
And so the direction of actual growth
opportunities versus what thestory or the narrative that
you're very used to functioningon, which is like this you
shouldn't even be a human being.
Why is this so hard for you?
Right, like perfectionism isgoing to always, in my
experience, point you toward tryharder, be better, push through
(27:15):
.
[Kristen Genzano] do more.
Yeah.
[Brooke Monaghan] Mindfulself-compassion, to me, allows
us to look at ourselves.
I would think and be like oh no, here's what's actually going
on here and the actual place,the actual opportunity for
growth is in this thing, not inthat I should just be less human
(27:35):
.
Kristen Genzano (27:37):
Yes, and I'm so glad you're bringing that up
because it points to a reallyimportant component of mindful
self-compassion, which is one ofthe things we teach, I think,
for a couple of weeks throughoutthe course, and this is common
humanity.
It's like a pillar of mindfulself-compassion, and what common
humanity says is that, likethis, is a common human
experience.
So what I'm experiencing eventhough I'm telling myself I
(27:59):
shouldn't be experiencing itpretty much anyone in this
situation would be experiencingthe same thing, and so I'm
actually connected to others.
I'm actually, I can be kind tomyself, because this is, this is
what it means to be human,rather than again, how do I push
myself through this and avoidthis common human experience,
avoid this discomfort that isnatural in this situation?
Brooke Monaghan (28:23):
Oh Kristen, I'm groaning in irritation with the
fact that it's not just as easyas just pushing through it,
avoiding Mm-hmm.
Would it be helpful to talkabout some of the other pillars
of mindful self-compassion?
Kristen Genzano (28:39):
So the three pillars of mindful
self-compassion are mindfulness,self-kindness and common
humanity.
So and I'll just sort of say aquick thing about each piece we
get into it so much more as youlearn the skills in the course.
But mindfulness is important,is like one of the pillars,
because what it does is allowsus the distance, it allows us
(29:00):
this observance opportunity.
So it allows us some spacebetween what's happening and
what our mind is basicallytelling us, to observe that
there's a, that there'ssomething happening.
Right, you have to be awarethat there's something happening
before we can do somethingabout it.
Practicing and learning how tobe mindful gives us that skill
(29:21):
to observe what's happening inthe moment.
Brooke Monaghan (29:23):
So, for example , it might be, mindfulness would
probably be the thing thatwould allow us to go oh, this is
actually perfectionism that'sshowing up right now.
I'm expecting myself to reachthe standard that's actually not
human.
Kristen Genzano (29:39):
exactly.
There's an example that I oftenuse, like because sometimes
it's easier to think abouttowards someone else, right?
So if you are walking down thestreet and there's someone who'
s injured themselves and they'reon the sidewalk and they've
fallen, you have to have thepresence of mind to be aware
enough and notice that there'ssomeone on the sidewalk who's
(30:02):
injured before you can dosomething to offer support or to
take action, to be kind.
Brooke Monaghan (30:08):
Yeah.
Kristen Genzano (30:08):
And so that's, you know again, kind of a
different way of exemplifying,like, what the mindfulness piece
is important about.
We have to be present enough tonotice that there's something
happening, yeah.
And then self-kindness is alittle bit more self-explanatory
.
We are much more skilled mostof us are much more skilled,
naturally at being kind toothers.
(30:29):
So you see that person on thesidewalk and maybe the kind act
is to go over and see are youokay do you need something?
Right, right, so self-kindnessis that developing that skill of
like okay, what do I need inthis moment For your example?
Like, oh, I'm noticing thatmaybe this is perfectionism.
What do I need in this moment?
(30:50):
What would I do for a friend,what would I offer someone else?
That's of that spirit ofkindness.
And then common humanity iskind of what I was just saying a
moment ago about this idea ofanybody in this situation would
be experiencing this kind offeeling.
And can I instead be connectedto others through this
(31:13):
experience rather thanself-shaming and self-isolating?
Thinking that, oh, this is justsomething wrong with me.
So we kind of weave those threethings in together and that's
where we get mindfulself-compassion.
Brooke Monaghan (31:25):
Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about this piece of
how we are connected to otherpeople through this common
humanity piece in this businesscontext, because what I watch so
many people do is they get themindfulness piece where they
(31:45):
start recognizing patterns orrecognizing what they're doing,
a thing they start to thinkabout, maybe the self-kindness
piece, what they need, and thenthey feel like they should hide
that from people, like in a okay, do you know what I mean?
Kristen Genzano (32:02):
Yeah, it's really touched my heart.
Brooke Monaghan (32:04):
Yeah, and if I, but also I need to balance this
with my external appearance ofmy business and how I function
and I need to look like I haveeverything together and I'm
wondering about I don't know.
But as you're bringing this up,what's happening in my brain
right now is I'm thinking abouthow we might be able to use that
common humanity piece as thething to sort of close the loop
(32:26):
on this and help some of thepeople, help some of that
friction that arises in the I'mwitnessing myself.
I know what I need andeveryone's going to think this
about me if I give myself that.
Kristen Genzano (32:38):
Totally, yeah.
I mean, I'm thinking about justan example from my own life of
like last year I took some timeoff because I needed a break,
but there was a whole thingaround like what's the
perception?
Like what are other peoplegoing to think about me doing
this thing?
That was the self-compassionatething to do.
But it's like that.
I wanted to avoid it because ifI think it's the piece that
(33:01):
you're bringing up, like whatare other people going to think
if I actually do the thing?
That is the self-compassionatething.
Right, and I love this questionyou're posing of like how does
common humanity fold into that?
Such a good question, Brooke.
I think common humanity invitesus to really really look at
ourselves I mean it feelsredundant to say, but really
really look at ourselves ashuman and give ourselves that
(33:22):
permission to not live up to theexpectations that we think
other people hold, to not liveup to these false ideals.
Brooke Monaghan (33:33):
I think that one of the things that I'm
realizing too is and you knowthis because we've worked
together before, but I talk allthe time about how we find
ourselves teaching the thingsthat we need to learn so often,
and so for a lot of the peoplethat I work with, especially
people who work in a coachingkind of context what I notice is
that some of the biggest growthopportunities probably the
(33:53):
biggest growth opportunitiescome about when folks recognize
that this is an opportunity tolive their work.
So don't not just teach it toother people, not just say that
it's true, not just make quotecards about it and put it on
your Instagram, but, when itcomes down to it, to actually
give yourself the gift ofallowing it for yourself and
(34:16):
practicing that and being in thetension that naturally arises
when you say I trust in what I'mputting forward as my work in
the world enough that I'm goingto actually do it and I want and
I think that it comes up a lotwhen folks are doing these first
two pillars.
This is me working as we're,this is me working this out as
(34:39):
we're talking, but it's likeright, it's like noticing the
pattern, it's the being kind toyourself.
I think the common humanitypiece might be in this.
So many other people are alsoexperiencing what I am
experiencing in this moment, andthis is an opportunity to sort
of be brave enough to showpeople.
So it's leadership.
Kristen Genzano (35:01):
It's leadership .
I was just thinking that, asyou were saying it, yep, the
common humanity piece isrecognizing that I'm not the
only one in the world who ishaving this experience.
It's kind of a little bituncomfortable because it's like
an awareness of like Okay, I'mnot special, I'm not the only
one who is feeling this way inthis type of a situation.
The leadership, I think, is thenext piece and that thing.
(35:23):
So I'm going to actually takecare of myself and and and let
that be okay, I'm not going tohide it.
Brooke Monaghan (35:30):
And it's so fucking disruptive [Kristen
Genzano] yeah absolutely.
[Brooke Monaghan] To the waythat most people live their
lives to do that like to yeah,so okay, so you're going to be
teaching a bit in Fruition inJanuary about this concept.
So for folks who are listening,who are like, oh shit, like me
(35:56):
come and join us and we'll go alittle bit more in depth
together.
Is there anything more that youwant to make sure that we maybe
didn't touch on that you reallywanted to make sure people hear
from you today.
Kristen Genzano (36:07):
I guess I'm curious for you as a business
coach.
Where do you see the value inhaving a business coach and a
therapist?
Oh yeah, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (36:17):
Can you tell me that?
Because I get those questionssometimes yeah, okay, tell me.
To me my role as a businesscoach is to help people
understand what parts of theirhelp people kind of parse out,
like what is an actual businessand strategy issue that can be
solved through some sort ofshift in the business, and then
(36:41):
what is coming from an internalthing and is deeper, and to sort
of help point people in theright direction.
For the most part, doing thework that it's going to take to
shift those patterns is notreally my skill set.
I can hold space for people totalk about what's going on for
them and reflect it back to them, but you're going to have to
(37:02):
take that somewhere else.
Yeah, right, to really addressit, right?
It's really common that I findthat.
So, for example, money storiescome up all the time.
Someone might come to me andsay I want to get my business to
this point where I'm makingthis much money.
Then we start looking at okay,what services do you want to
offer?
What's your pricing like,what's your capacity?
(37:23):
Let's do the math Either you'regoing to have to charge more or
you're going to have to workmore, or we're going to have to
change the structure of yourbusiness or the way that the
offers work, or set up adifferent business model.
Whatever it might be right,Ultimately what we end up
getting to is the work thatreally needs to be done is very
(37:44):
uncomfortable, because there's astory there around money,
around worthiness, around whatyou're able to ask for, around.
If you make that much money,what does it mean about you?
Are you abandoning the peoplewho need you most?
What are the people in your,about out earning your parents.
Out earning parents is like ahuge thing, right?
Great, Now we know some of thethreads to pull and you can now
(38:11):
actually address this problem bygoing and dealing with that,
instead of running around incircles trying to change your
business over and over again andpush harder and then wondering
what's wrong with you, thatyou're doing all the things
right and you're still notgetting your business to the
point that it needs to go right.
It's like a coach a businesscoach, I think, depending on the
(38:34):
type of coach that you workwith.
I think in the best that we canoffer is to help folks get more
clear on what's actually goingon in the business and parse out
what's a systems and strategyissue, what's an implementation
issue, what's an issue toaddress in the business and then
what's an issue to address inyourself.
You need to have a place toactually address that stuff in
(38:56):
yourself, though, because justknowing that it's a pattern and
then listening to podcastepisodes is not going to do it.
Kristen Genzano (39:02):
Yeah.
Yeah Right.
I appreciate that so much.
It makes me think aboutsomething I've just been kind of
chewing on kind of as we'vebeen leading up to this
conversation, which is this realkind of I think idea that when
you're an entrepreneur, whenyou're a business owner, that
(39:22):
relationship that exists, you'rein relationship with your
business and so the same waythat interpersonal relationships
, family relationships, any kindof relationships kind of
illuminate deeper issues for usor illuminate problem areas or
stuck points or cycles, thebusiness does the same thing.
(39:43):
And I think that's what you'resaying.
Business coaching actually kindof maybe unintentionally helps
to bring up, like shine a lighton some of these things that
then you can kind of take totherapy and say, okay, I need to
dig in here, and then hopefullyyou have some self compassion
skills to hold you and supportyou through therapy.
Brooke Monaghan (40:01):
Yeah, or to at the very least, notice some of
those things that are coming upfor as maybe a pattern or maybe
something that has a deeper rootto explore elsewhere, and
notice that and sit with it longenough to let to oh my gosh, I
almost just quoted fucking HaleyWilliams how classic, because
(40:22):
I'm obsessed with Haley Williams.
Hi, everybody, Paramore, hi,still long enough to listen to
yourself, like, sit with it longenough to have some
understanding about what itactually is.
Yeah, right, I think about,like you know, your parents
barging in and when you're a kidand telling you, like, why are
you doing this?
I, we talked about this a bunchof times, right, and you so
badly want to be like because ofthis.
(40:43):
This is what's actually goingon.
Let me explain myself to you,right, and I think and not
having the opportunity to dothat To me, mindful self
compassion, or at least whatyou've explained about it so far
, or the self kindness piece ofit, I guess can be that thing
that allows you to sit therelong enough to be curious about
it.
Just be curious about it andwhere it's coming up and have a
(41:05):
little bit more understanding,and then that's going to point
you in the right direction ofwhat you actually have to do
next you know, and maybe it'stherapy and it probably is
everybody.
Kristen Genzano (41:18):
Oh, I appreciate you so much.
Brooke Monaghan (41:22):
Kristen, this is so fun.
I'm really glad we finally didthis and I am so excited for you
to teach this in Fruition inJanuary.
It's so needed and I'm justreally grateful to have you be a
part of it.
Kristen Genzano (41:37):
Thank you, Brooke.
I'm grateful for everything youdo and for the opportunity to
have this conversation and toteach in January.
It's going to be a good timeyeah, as good as learning self
compassion can be.
Brooke Monaghan (41:47):
It'll be good, we'll do it together.
It's the kind of discomfortthat hopefully, if you're
listening, you're willing to bein with us.
The good kind of discomfort,yeah.
Kristen Genzano (41:56):
Join us.
Hello and welcome back to another episode
of Make your Business Work ForYou.
I am Brooke Monaghan.
I use she and her pronouns.
Today's episode is long awaited.
I'm chatting with KristinGenzano, who also uses she and
her pronouns.
She's a therapist and the ownerof North Star Therapy
Collective, and Kristen and Ihave been talking honestly maybe
for years at this point aboutrecording an episode together.
(00:31):
Back when I had my otherpodcast that I was running, we
kept talking about doing it andnever did, and we really wanted
to talk about why therapy is soimportant for business owners.
And I'm finally getting Kristenon here to talk about this, as
well as mindful self-compassion,as a tool for us to sit in the
(00:53):
resistance and discomfort thatarises when we are on the
precipice of growth.
And I know that for you, assomebody who listens to podcasts
like this one, you probablyknow full well that growth is
uncomfortable.
We want it and we also don'tlove what it takes out of us.
So if you're looking for a wayto make that a little bit easier
(01:15):
and stick with it, I think thattoday's episode will be really
helpful for you.
Kristen is also going to berunning our free January
workshop in Fruition GrowthNetwork.
This one will be on mindfulself-compassion, and we would
love to have you there so youcan head to join fruition.
com to create your free accountand then head to the community
events tab to register for allof the upcoming events you want
(01:39):
to come to.
The contributor workshops likethis one were intended to and
eventually will be part of apaid membership.
And, to be honest with y'all,my capacity has been so limited
right now that I have decided toput off launching that paid
(01:59):
membership and just make thesethings free so I can get as many
people through the doorchecking out what we have going
on.
So take advantage of that andcome to our free workshops.
Again, you can head to joinfruition.
com, create a free account.
Once you're in there, you'regoing to go to the community
events tab and also check outwhat else we have going on in
there, you can ask questions forexpert contributors.
That's where you can submitquestions for the show.
(02:20):
I'm in there responding toquestions, so come and hang out
with us, and we also have a fewother support options that are
available right now and you cancheck those out on our website,
join fruition.
com as well, including Bloom,which is a small group coaching
space that I run.
You can coach with me right nowfor under $100 a month y'all,
(02:43):
and that group is tiny because Ihave done just about zero
marketing around it, so I'm justdropping that here.
You want to get in before Iactually do a launch of the
thing, I would love to have you.
Okay, without further ado,here's my conversation with
Kristen.
I hope that you enjoy.
So you and I have talked a bitabout this concept of.
(03:15):
Actually, I think that we'vebeen talking for like over a
year at this point about why youneed to come on the show when I
was running my other podcast totalk about therapy as an
essential tool for businessowners.
This is something that I believein fully and I think that like,
in fact, I was just talkingwith a friend the other day
about how I'm, like if you canonly invest in one thing as a
(03:38):
business owner, like if you feellike you are getting in your
own way and you can only investin one thing make it a therapist
because it's going to help youdeal with, like the things that
are coming up in your businessare not just coming up in your
business, right?
And one of the things that wetalked about recently was that I
feel like a lot of theprogramming that people find
themselves in to help them withtheir businesses is actually
(04:03):
kind of like a way to avoidhaving to do some of the deeper,
harder stuff that comes up intherapy, and I'm wondering if,
like you, would share some ofyour thoughts on that.
Kristen Genzano (04:15):
As I say that, yeah, I mean I smile because I
think you're right on.
I think we do this in so manyareas of our lives, right, we
often look for ways to kind ofquasi deal with the issues.
It's like what can I do overhere that might kind of make the
deeper thing feel better,without actually addressing the
deeper thing.
And the challenge that comes up, I think, around that, is that
(04:38):
we end up maybe maybe investingin like I'll just use like self
improvement as an exampleinvesting in like 20 different
self improvement courses,because we're not actually
getting to the root thing.
That's there.
I have this phrase that Ilearned, kind of like the subtle
aggression of self improvement,and it's like we just kind of
looking, keep looking for thething to solve the deeper issue
(04:58):
without going yeah, does thatmake sense?
Brooke Monaghan (05:02):
Oh, it sure does.
I'm like we're already here,huh, yeah, I mean, I hear this,
and what comes to mind for me isthis feeling that if we could
just if we could just do selfimprovement the right way, then
maybe all this stuff wouldn'tfeel so hard.
(05:22):
Like that would be the answerto making things not feel hard,
if we could just figure out howto I don't know like manage our
mindset in just the right way,and that that might take the
hard out of it.
And what I have found to betrue is that actually it's
(05:42):
learning how to be with the hardstuff.
That is really the that'sultimately going to be on your
side, Like eventually you'regoing to find yourself in a
place where you're going to belike oh, there's no escaping the
fact that this shit is hard,which is why therapy.
Kristen Genzano (06:00):
Well, and Brooke, I think you're totally
hitting on something reallyimportant, like it's the
learning to be with the hardstuff, and I think that's why we
don't know how to be with thehard stuff and so that's why we
look to these other things totry to supplement and try to
like give us a way throughwithout going through.
And I think therapy if you'reable to find, like, the right
therapist for you, that you'reable to learn that skill of
(06:22):
being with yourself in thedifficulty, whatever that is for
you, because it's different forall of us.
Brooke Monaghan (06:27):
As we're having this conversation, I'm
realizing I'm like this.
So much of what we're saying isso obvious to me and I'm
wondering if it would help tokind of back some things up for
a second, because what I witnesshappen over and over again is
that and this is why I careabout entrepreneurship, right?
Like I don't care aboutentrepreneurship and small
business ownership because Iwant to help people grow massive
companies that's never been myreason for being here.
(06:49):
The reason why I care about itis because of the people who
find their way into it, andtypically what I find is that
the people who find me and mywork so probably the people
listening hello, listener,probably you, are people who
traditional work environmentsdidn't work for them.
For one reason or another.
It feels really soul sucking tobe in a traditional work
environment, and there's so manyreasons why that could be, and
(07:12):
so many of us decided that if wecould just work for ourselves,
then we wouldn't have to dealwith all of these things that
are coming up.
And then what we find as we'reworking for ourselves actually
oh shit, it's still there.
The same things kind of reartheir heads, and one of the
things that rears its head isthat we end up I'm saying we,
(07:35):
because I know this is not justme at this point.
I know from talking to so manybusiness owners that this is a
thing, that so many of us do,that and it's totally
understandable that we end upstarting our own businesses and
then we end up holding ourselvesto the same kinds of
expectations that our shittiestbosses did.
(07:55):
We also find that so many ofthe things that we were craving
probably pointed to somethingdeeper than just that we wanted
the freedom of working forourselves.
Like it pointed to some maybedeeper need, and just starting a
business is actually not aneasy fix.
No, not at all, not at all.
(08:19):
It's really hard, anyway.
So, as I'm saying all of that,what's coming up for you, I kind
of want to just open theconversation there and see what
thread you want to pull on.
Kristen Genzano (08:27):
Well, first of all, I feel seen and attacked,
but in a good way, I mean,called out maybe is a better
word, because I can reallypersonally relate as a business
owner to what you're sayingabout being in these traditional
work environments and thevarious things that just didn't
work for me.
And so, okay, let me step overhere and start my own business
(08:49):
as a way of getting away fromthese things and then finding
those same things showing up,maybe in a different way, but in
my business.
And so, yeah, there's this kindof parallel that I feel like
you're highlighting about theseways that we maybe again try to
kind of like sidestep the deeperwork and it's not the I'm not
(09:10):
saying that as a criticism.
Like I think this is a reallyhuman thing to do.
Brooke Monaghan (09:14):
Yeah, and also I will say that, like it's,
we're not going to changetraditional work environments.
Like nor do I think that that'sthe labor that a lot of people
who I work with I would notadvise them to try to invest
their labor in changing theirwork setting.
Get the fuck out of there.
Like I'm for it.
Kristen Genzano (09:33):
Right.
Totally, yeah, yeah.
But then it's that question oflike okay, when all that shit
starts showing up again overhere, now what?
Brooke Monaghan (09:44):
What do we do?
And so what I witness happenoftentimes and this is kind of
the reason why I had the otherpodcast that I used to have,
which was called Transcend YourDichotomy.
For anybody who's new here, hi.
I started talking a lot aboutthis concept of like, how we
start to feel like there's howwe actually want to function and
(10:08):
how we actually want to show upin the world, and then we have
this other version of us thatwe're holding ourselves to, who
we should be, who, what theresponsible version of us would
do.
That part, that where we holdourselves just threw my pen,
where we hold ourselves toourselves, to those.
That standard to me is where westart actually replicating some
(10:31):
of the things that we maybelearned somewhere along the way.
Right, and those, thosepatterns that are not actually
working for us, I think, startto show up and we start feeling
that divide.
And I'm wondering from you, Iknow that.
So one of the things that Ireally wanted to talk to you
about was this concept ofmindful self compassion, and it
(10:52):
sounds like one of the toolsthat you're saying could kind of
help with that, because I thinkthat so much of the work is
learning how to be with yourselfand then also be like building
the capacity to be in thetension of understanding
yourself and being with yourselfand what you need and also
(11:15):
moving toward growth, like sofucking, like hard.
It is so hard and mindful selfcompassion, it sounds like, is a
tool that could be reallyhelpful in that that maybe we
don't realize as part of whatwe're.
I think a lot of us are tryingto learn when we go through some
(11:36):
of the business programmingthat's out there, from this kind
of corner of, I'm going to say,the coaching space that is
trying to teach us how to bewith ourselves and be with our
businesses at the same time andmaybe not getting to those root
issues.
Kristen Genzano (11:51):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you bringing up
mindful self compassion.
I definitely want to talk aboutthat.
But can I jump on somethingelse you said first?
[Brooke Monaghan] Please.
[Kristen Genzano] So you usethe word tension, and I'm so
glad you did, because that'sexactly what I was thinking of
when you were talking about thiskind of like desire that we
have for ourselves and then thekind of old way of operating or
the learned way of operating,the reinforced way of operating,
(12:13):
and in my mind's eye, I justwas picturing those two pulling
like you know, sort of liketaffy or something like pulling
in opposite directions, and thattension that arises out of that
that pull.
And I had a therapist many yearsago who who taught me that it's
like from that tension thatsomething new arises.
Yes, it's from that tensionwhere growth happens.
(12:36):
Yes, and so it's again like notthe idea of trying to get
around that tension that'sactually holding in that tension
long enough for that new thingto emerge.
And I think that's kind of whatwhat you're, you're bringing up
mindful self compassion, likehow do that gives us maybe an
opportunity to learn how to holdthat tension long enough.
Brooke Monaghan (12:55):
I agree, [Kristen Genzano] For that new
thing to emerge.
[Brooke Monaghan] I agree, andI'm hearing you say that and I'm
like thinking about all of thetimes honestly, just over the
past month, week, maybe 24 hourshonestly but I've been like,
why is this so hard?
Because I certainly havelearned that like and of course
(13:15):
it comes up in business, butit's, with everything right.
That really the thing that I'minterested in in my life, like,
to me, one of the things thatmakes life worth living is like
moving toward a differentversion of things that actually
does feel supportive for me,that allows me to be who I
actually am but that also allowsme to I don't know like survive
(13:38):
, and dealwith some of the systems around
me and right, and, and yeah,when you were saying it's from
that tension that something newarises or that growth happens,
it's like that's where we canimagine a different way of doing
things and that's where wedon't actually have to choose
between what we were told we hadto do in that work environment
that didn't work, and just kindof throwing our hands up and
(14:01):
being like, well, I'm not goingto do any of that because that
doesn't work for me and I'm justgoing to follow what feels good
in this moment, knowing that,like, the systems are not
actually set up for to rewardthat, and so somewhere along,
and also that, like that's justa starting point and we don't
actually most of us find, aftergoing down that road for a
(14:23):
minute, that actually that's notit either.
Right, we need to imagine like anew possibility, a new way
forward.
No one else is imagining it forus, so we have to do it.
It only comes from beingwilling to sit in that tension
and it's really uncomfortableand I think that this brings
things full circle and I wonderwhat you think about this.
But I think that a lot of whatI see people trying to do in
(14:47):
their businesses is figure out away to make that tension not
exist.
Figure out a way to like.
Give me the right answer forwhat I can do.
That isn't what I was told theright answer was, because I know
that wasn't working for me.
But give me the right answer ofwhat I can do that will help me
kind of help make this easierand simpler and for me to not
have to sit in this tension anddiscomfort.
Kristen Genzano (15:08):
Yeah, I mean I know as a business owner myself,
that I am often by myselflooking for that answer.
I'm like, okay, if it's notthat, how do I get around this
in a different way?
Absolutely, because it's solike to your point, so fucking
uncomfortable to sit in that, inthat place of tension and that
place of figuring it out, Ithink, for yourself, like on
(15:29):
your own.
Maybe not on your own, I mean,we do this in community but like
figuring it out for yourself,which might probably look
different from the person nextto you, on either side of you,
even if you have similar values,even if you have a similar
business.
Your way is your way.
And I mean now my brain goeslike we're talking about like
self actualization, like we'retalking about like fully moving
(15:52):
into your full autonomy andauthority and not looking to
anybody else for answers.
Brooke Monaghan (15:57):
Let's talk a bit about the mindful self
compassion piece, because thisis something that I really want
to get into with folks and thisis something that I think you're
going to be speaking to a bitin Fruition in January.
So for folks who are listening,who are like, oh, I need to go
further down this road, or howdo I sit in that tension, where
do you see mindful selfcompassion coming into this as a
(16:19):
tool to help people be withthemselves and with their
business at the same time andthe hard things that are coming
up, and kind of?
I see this almost as a way ofbreaking this cycle of just
trying to find a way out of itand then finding yourself right
back in the same place.
Totally, yeah, absolutely.
(16:41):
It's almost like a tool formaking this into that spiral
staircase, versus just thatfeeling of going around in
circles.
Kristen Genzano (16:47):
Yes, yes, I love that image too, like how do
we shift this to that spiralstaircase where there's growth,
there's movement, instead ofjust a merry-go-round right?
So mindful self compassion is a.
I think of it as a coursebecause there are two
originators, Kristin Neff andChris Germer, who are Kristin
Neff is a mindful selfcompassion, she's a self
compassion researcher and ChrisGermer is a clinical
(17:10):
psychologist and a mindfulnesspractitioner, and the two of
them connected to develop out ofher research and his clinical
practice to develop a coursethat is not a substitute for
therapy, but it's an adjunct totherapy.
I think of it as like a skillsbuilding course almost, where
you learn, you're sort ofintroduced to mindfulness and
(17:31):
you're introduced to compassionand the way that to sort of
intertwine with each other, andthen throughout the typical
course is eight weeks long andthroughout that course you learn
actual skills of how to bringwell what self compassion is and
then how to bring selfcompassion to your experience in
the moment when you're inexactly one of these kinds of
(17:52):
situations.
There's two things that I thinkare really, really important to
business owners, and I'm goingto generalize a little bit here.
Disclaimer, I know all businessowners are not the same, but I
think a lot of business ownersare maybe on the perfectionistic
, overachieving side,potentially, and possibly
actually data suggests this aswell that there's a lot of
(18:14):
neurodivergence with businessowners, and so these two things
are two of the most wellresearched kind of areas that
self compassion serves as ananecdote to.
And this is because these twothings are often highly
correlated with shame.
Perfectionism and shame,neurodivergence and shame and
there's different reasons why,but there's a high correlation
(18:35):
there.
I'm going to pause because yourface suggests aha or some kind
of moment happening.
Brooke Monaghan (18:41):
You want to know that.
Okay.
So somebody who isneurodivergent and is currently
working through perfectionism ina big way I was actually given
a pass from my therapist lastTuesday to give my perfectionism
journal a break because it camein on Sunday in the mail and by
(19:07):
Tuesday when I saw my therapist, I was a good bit into it,
taking a very perfectionistapproach to trying to work
through it and get it done andfixed, and was like told her
that I had been swearing at itand I felt personally attacked
by it and I kept opening it andanswering a few questions and
slamming it closed and she waslike, maybe take it easy on the
(19:32):
journal.
And I'm like, but you told meto get the journal and you told
me that I had to right.
So as somebody who is very mucha perfectionist and I'm finding
out more and more about myselfthat this is like so it's like
one of the very firstexperiences that I can remember
is being in that perfectionismas survival kind of places.
(19:54):
As like a very small kid and isalso neurodivergent.
One of the first times that Iever went to therapy, my
therapist was like I wanna getmore into where all this shame
is coming from and I was likewhat are you talking about?
Shame?
I am a.
At the time, I had likelistened to every podcast
episode that Brené Brown everdid.
(20:14):
I had like listened to theaudio version of like so many of
her books.
I was like addicted to a personwho was researching shame and
it never once dawned on me thatthat was actually going on.
For me, it was like totally noton my radar.
So that's why my face is doingthat.
Because you were likeexplaining something to me where
I'm like wait a second, this isa thing that happens and you
(20:36):
know, we think we know ourselves.
Anyways, that's what's comingup.
Kristen Genzano (20:39):
Yeah well, thank you for sharing that.
I appreciate it very much and Ithink yeah, I mean I think so
the shame piece is so central tothese two experiences that,
like that you're sharing andthat I can relate to you.
I mean, absolutely, I identifyas a perfectionist and I'm
neurodivergent.
So, you know, I have personalexperience around these two
(21:01):
pieces too, and the thing thatself compassion does is it asks
us to treat ourselves the way wewould treat a friend, to offer
ourselves the same level ofkindness and compassion that we
would give a friend in the samesituation.
And when you're a perfectionistagain, I don't wanna just focus
(21:22):
on perfectionism because youknow this isn't just about that
issue, but because I do think itis so prevalent, not just for
business owners, but just as aproduct of our society when
you're a perfectionist, youstart to you often start to
think that I should exist inthis world in a way that is,
it's not human right, it'sperfect.
(21:43):
Humans are naturally imperfect,and so we hold ourselves to
these standards that areunattainable, and then, when we
don't attain them, we're hard onourselves and we don't know how
to be with ourselves in thatdiscomfort of not attaining the
standard that we think we haveto attain.
And so, again, with selfcompassion, we learn the skill
(22:03):
of okay.
Well, what would I say?
What would I say to Brooke ifshe came to me and said XYZ is
happening?
Okay, I would be so kind andunderstanding to Brooke, and yet
I'm over here criticizing thehell out of myself for this.
So how can I start to bringthat same level of grace and
kindness to myself that I wouldoffer Brooke?
(22:24):
Right, it sounds easy.
It's not easy in practice, it'sso not easy.
Brooke Monaghan (22:31):
It's so not easy, yeah, and I'm wondering.
There's like so many thingsthat are coming up for me.
The first thing is, as I ammyself working on untangling
this perfectionism, what thefirst thing that I realized is
that I'm ashamed of being alive.
At its root, I'm ashamed ofbeing in a human form.
(22:55):
The fact that I'm a human being, you know, like that itself is
like I should not exist as ahuman being.
I should be.
My therapist was calling mefairy Jesus, that I should be
like this little fairy thatoperates as Jesus, like that's
like the --
Kristen Genzano (23:11):
Love your therapist, by the way.
These are great.
Brooke Monaghan (23:12):
Yeah she's awesome.
That's the standard that I holdmyself to right.
So, as you're saying that it'sjust, I just want to say like
I'm hearing what you're sayingis like kind of mind blowing to
me, because it took me, howevermany years to get to that point,
of recognizing that myself.
Is there a link?
Do you think betweenneurodivergence and
perfectionism?
That, as somebody who'sneurodivergent, perfectionism
(23:35):
would become a thing that youwould look to as like a way of
kind of learning how to survivein these, in a neurotypical
environment?
Kristen Genzano (23:47):
Yeah, I think so.
I don't.
I don't.
I can't point to any data tosupport that.
I don't know the research onthat, but I think sort of from
my own experience and from myclinical work I can say that
that absolutely seems like alogical connection that
perfectionism can develop as acoping mechanism really for
being neurodivergent in a, in aneurotypical world.
Brooke Monaghan (24:09):
Yeah.
Kristen Genzano (24:10):
Absolutely yeah .
Brooke Monaghan (24:11):
And I would think also like okay, so we're
talking about a lot aboutneurodivergence, but I think
also like about people who inother ways dominant culture is
not on their side.
Kristen Genzano (24:23):
Yes, I'm so glad you're bringing that in.
Absolutely, because yes, we'retalking about neurodivergence
but we're talking about peoplewho are just sort of not in that
big center kind of you know.
You think of the bell curve,that that sort of mainstream,
and I think, yeah, absolutely itmakes sense to me that
perfectionism could develop outof being on those extremes.
Brooke Monaghan (24:45):
Being marginalized in some way.
Kristen Genzano (24:49):
Marginalized, exactly yeah.
Yeah, and then the shame thatcomes with perfectionism and or
the shame that can come withbeing marginalized yeah, because
that's another layer.
Brooke Monaghan (24:59):
Shit, Kristen, fuck, I'm like I had such a plan
for this conversation and nowit's happening.
As I'm just like processing inreal time, I'm like, yeah, of
course people who aremarginalized are going to be
feel ashamed of existing andhold themselves to a standard of
not being human.
Of course, of course, of course, and probably.
(25:23):
I've listened to 17 podcastepisodes on this exact topic.
This has been explained to meand right now it is finally
making sense in my body.
Hi, everybody, this is meprocessing in real time.
Okay, so mindful selfcompassion, if we're coming back
to this, yeah, first thing thatI want to say is, as you were
talking about treating yourself,the way that you would treat a
(25:44):
friend, one of the things thatalso came up for me is like, how
about this concept of like whenwe are in that traditional work
environment and we see the waythat management or whatever
treats people and we think, ohwell, if I were in charge, I
would do these things right?
And then you start running yourown business and you are like a
bigger asshole to yourself thanyour boss ever was.
(26:10):
So, suddenly we're back in that.
Oh, but when it's for me, Idon't actually behave that way.
Yeah, when it's toward me, Iactually hold myself to a
completely inhuman standard.
and so anybody who's like oh,I'm actually not a very good
(26:30):
boss to myself, hi, mindfulself-compassion is f At least I
think, does that feel f yea.
Kristen Genzano (26:36):
Absolutely yeah , without a doubt, because then,
if you have the opportunity todevelop those skills to be with
yourself in a more compassionateway, then you can start being
the boss to yourself that youwish you had, instead of a
bigger asshole than the one youactually had.
Brooke Monaghan (26:49):
Totally.
Kristen Genzano (26:49):
Totally.
Brooke Monaghan (26:51):
And so the direction of actual growth
opportunities versus what thestory or the narrative that
you're very used to functioningon, which is like this you
shouldn't even be a human being.
Why is this so hard for you?
Right, like perfectionism isgoing to always, in my
experience, point you toward tryharder, be better, push through
(27:15):
.
[Kristen Genzano] do more.
Yeah.
[Brooke Monaghan] Mindfulself-compassion, to me, allows
us to look at ourselves.
I would think and be like oh no, here's what's actually going
on here and the actual place,the actual opportunity for
growth is in this thing, not inthat I should just be less human
(27:35):
.
Kristen Genzano (27:37):
Yes, and I'm so glad you're bringing that up
because it points to a reallyimportant component of mindful
self-compassion, which is one ofthe things we teach, I think,
for a couple of weeks throughoutthe course, and this is common
humanity.
It's like a pillar of mindfulself-compassion, and what common
humanity says is that, likethis, is a common human
experience.
So what I'm experiencing eventhough I'm telling myself I
(27:59):
shouldn't be experiencing itpretty much anyone in this
situation would be experiencingthe same thing, and so I'm
actually connected to others.
I'm actually, I can be kind tomyself, because this is, this is
what it means to be human,rather than again, how do I push
myself through this and avoidthis common human experience,
avoid this discomfort that isnatural in this situation?
Brooke Monaghan (28:23):
Oh Kristen, I'm groaning in irritation with the
fact that it's not just as easyas just pushing through it,
avoiding Mm-hmm.
Would it be helpful to talkabout some of the other pillars
of mindful self-compassion?
Kristen Genzano (28:39):
So the three pillars of mindful
self-compassion are mindfulness,self-kindness and common
humanity.
So and I'll just sort of say aquick thing about each piece we
get into it so much more as youlearn the skills in the course.
But mindfulness is important,is like one of the pillars,
because what it does is allowsus the distance, it allows us
(29:00):
this observance opportunity.
So it allows us some spacebetween what's happening and
what our mind is basicallytelling us, to observe that
there's a, that there'ssomething happening.
Right, you have to be awarethat there's something happening
before we can do somethingabout it.
Practicing and learning how tobe mindful gives us that skill
(29:21):
to observe what's happening inthe moment.
Brooke Monaghan (29:23):
So, for example , it might be, mindfulness would
probably be the thing thatwould allow us to go oh, this is
actually perfectionism that'sshowing up right now.
I'm expecting myself to reachthe standard that's actually not
human.
Kristen Genzano (29:39):
exactly.
There's an example that I oftenuse, like because sometimes
it's easier to think abouttowards someone else, right?
So if you are walking down thestreet and there's someone who'
s injured themselves and they'reon the sidewalk and they've
fallen, you have to have thepresence of mind to be aware
enough and notice that there'ssomeone on the sidewalk who's
(30:02):
injured before you can dosomething to offer support or to
take action, to be kind.
Brooke Monaghan (30:08):
Yeah.
Kristen Genzano (30:08):
And so that's, you know again, kind of a
different way of exemplifying,like, what the mindfulness piece
is important about.
We have to be present enough tonotice that there's something
happening, yeah.
And then self-kindness is alittle bit more self-explanatory
.
We are much more skilled mostof us are much more skilled,
naturally at being kind toothers.
(30:29):
So you see that person on thesidewalk and maybe the kind act
is to go over and see are youokay do you need something?
Right, right, so self-kindnessis that developing that skill of
like okay, what do I need inthis moment For your example?
Like, oh, I'm noticing thatmaybe this is perfectionism.
What do I need in this moment?
(30:50):
What would I do for a friend,what would I offer someone else?
That's of that spirit ofkindness.
And then common humanity iskind of what I was just saying a
moment ago about this idea ofanybody in this situation would
be experiencing this kind offeeling.
And can I instead be connectedto others through this
(31:13):
experience rather thanself-shaming and self-isolating?
Thinking that, oh, this is justsomething wrong with me.
So we kind of weave those threethings in together and that's
where we get mindfulself-compassion.
Brooke Monaghan (31:25):
Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about this piece of
how we are connected to otherpeople through this common
humanity piece in this businesscontext, because what I watch so
many people do is they get themindfulness piece where they
(31:45):
start recognizing patterns orrecognizing what they're doing,
a thing they start to thinkabout, maybe the self-kindness
piece, what they need, and thenthey feel like they should hide
that from people, like in a okay, do you know what I mean?
Kristen Genzano (32:02):
Yeah, it's really touched my heart.
Brooke Monaghan (32:04):
Yeah, and if I, but also I need to balance this
with my external appearance ofmy business and how I function
and I need to look like I haveeverything together and I'm
wondering about I don't know.
But as you're bringing this up,what's happening in my brain
right now is I'm thinking abouthow we might be able to use that
common humanity piece as thething to sort of close the loop
(32:26):
on this and help some of thepeople, help some of that
friction that arises in the I'mwitnessing myself.
I know what I need andeveryone's going to think this
about me if I give myself that.
Kristen Genzano (32:38):
Totally, yeah.
I mean, I'm thinking about justan example from my own life of
like last year I took some timeoff because I needed a break,
but there was a whole thingaround like what's the
perception?
Like what are other peoplegoing to think about me doing
this thing?
That was the self-compassionatething to do.
But it's like that.
I wanted to avoid it because ifI think it's the piece that
(33:01):
you're bringing up, like whatare other people going to think
if I actually do the thing?
That is the self-compassionatething.
Right, and I love this questionyou're posing of like how does
common humanity fold into that?
Such a good question, Brooke.
I think common humanity invitesus to really really look at
ourselves I mean it feelsredundant to say, but really
really look at ourselves ashuman and give ourselves that
(33:22):
permission to not live up to theexpectations that we think
other people hold, to not liveup to these false ideals.
Brooke Monaghan (33:33):
I think that one of the things that I'm
realizing too is and you knowthis because we've worked
together before, but I talk allthe time about how we find
ourselves teaching the thingsthat we need to learn so often,
and so for a lot of the peoplethat I work with, especially
people who work in a coachingkind of context what I notice is
that some of the biggest growthopportunities probably the
(33:53):
biggest growth opportunitiescome about when folks recognize
that this is an opportunity tolive their work.
So don't not just teach it toother people, not just say that
it's true, not just make quotecards about it and put it on
your Instagram, but, when itcomes down to it, to actually
give yourself the gift ofallowing it for yourself and
(34:16):
practicing that and being in thetension that naturally arises
when you say I trust in what I'mputting forward as my work in
the world enough that I'm goingto actually do it and I want and
I think that it comes up a lotwhen folks are doing these first
two pillars.
This is me working as we're,this is me working this out as
(34:39):
we're talking, but it's likeright, it's like noticing the
pattern, it's the being kind toyourself.
I think the common humanitypiece might be in this.
So many other people are alsoexperiencing what I am
experiencing in this moment, andthis is an opportunity to sort
of be brave enough to showpeople.
So it's leadership.
Kristen Genzano (35:01):
It's leadership .
I was just thinking that, asyou were saying it, yep, the
common humanity piece isrecognizing that I'm not the
only one in the world who ishaving this experience.
It's kind of a little bituncomfortable because it's like
an awareness of like Okay, I'mnot special, I'm not the only
one who is feeling this way inthis type of a situation.
The leadership, I think, is thenext piece and that thing.
(35:23):
So I'm going to actually takecare of myself and and and let
that be okay, I'm not going tohide it.
Brooke Monaghan (35:30):
And it's so fucking disruptive [Kristen
Genzano] yeah absolutely.
[Brooke Monaghan] To the waythat most people live their
lives to do that like to yeah,so okay, so you're going to be
teaching a bit in Fruition inJanuary about this concept.
So for folks who are listening,who are like, oh shit, like me
(35:56):
come and join us and we'll go alittle bit more in depth
together.
Is there anything more that youwant to make sure that we maybe
didn't touch on that you reallywanted to make sure people hear
from you today.
Kristen Genzano (36:07):
I guess I'm curious for you as a business
coach.
Where do you see the value inhaving a business coach and a
therapist?
Oh yeah, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (36:17):
Can you tell me that?
Because I get those questionssometimes yeah, okay, tell me.
To me my role as a businesscoach is to help people
understand what parts of theirhelp people kind of parse out,
like what is an actual businessand strategy issue that can be
solved through some sort ofshift in the business, and then
(36:41):
what is coming from an internalthing and is deeper, and to sort
of help point people in theright direction.
For the most part, doing thework that it's going to take to
shift those patterns is notreally my skill set.
I can hold space for people totalk about what's going on for
them and reflect it back to them, but you're going to have to
(37:02):
take that somewhere else.
Yeah, right, to really addressit, right?
It's really common that I findthat.
So, for example, money storiescome up all the time.
Someone might come to me andsay I want to get my business to
this point where I'm makingthis much money.
Then we start looking at okay,what services do you want to
offer?
What's your pricing like,what's your capacity?
(37:23):
Let's do the math Either you'regoing to have to charge more or
you're going to have to workmore, or we're going to have to
change the structure of yourbusiness or the way that the
offers work, or set up adifferent business model.
Whatever it might be right,Ultimately what we end up
getting to is the work thatreally needs to be done is very
(37:44):
uncomfortable, because there's astory there around money,
around worthiness, around whatyou're able to ask for, around.
If you make that much money,what does it mean about you?
Are you abandoning the peoplewho need you most?
What are the people in your,about out earning your parents.
Out earning parents is like ahuge thing, right?
Great, Now we know some of thethreads to pull and you can now
(38:11):
actually address this problem bygoing and dealing with that,
instead of running around incircles trying to change your
business over and over again andpush harder and then wondering
what's wrong with you, thatyou're doing all the things
right and you're still notgetting your business to the
point that it needs to go right.
It's like a coach a businesscoach, I think, depending on the
(38:34):
type of coach that you workwith.
I think in the best that we canoffer is to help folks get more
clear on what's actually goingon in the business and parse out
what's a systems and strategyissue, what's an implementation
issue, what's an issue toaddress in the business and then
what's an issue to address inyourself.
You need to have a place toactually address that stuff in
(38:56):
yourself, though, because justknowing that it's a pattern and
then listening to podcastepisodes is not going to do it.
Kristen Genzano (39:02):
Yeah.
Yeah Right.
I appreciate that so much.
It makes me think aboutsomething I've just been kind of
chewing on kind of as we'vebeen leading up to this
conversation, which is this realkind of I think idea that when
you're an entrepreneur, whenyou're a business owner, that
(39:22):
relationship that exists, you'rein relationship with your
business and so the same waythat interpersonal relationships
, family relationships, any kindof relationships kind of
illuminate deeper issues for usor illuminate problem areas or
stuck points or cycles, thebusiness does the same thing.
(39:43):
And I think that's what you'resaying.
Business coaching actually kindof maybe unintentionally helps
to bring up, like shine a lighton some of these things that
then you can kind of take totherapy and say, okay, I need to
dig in here, and then hopefullyyou have some self compassion
skills to hold you and supportyou through therapy.
Brooke Monaghan (40:01):
Yeah, or to at the very least, notice some of
those things that are coming upfor as maybe a pattern or maybe
something that has a deeper rootto explore elsewhere, and
notice that and sit with it longenough to let to oh my gosh, I
almost just quoted fucking HaleyWilliams how classic, because
(40:22):
I'm obsessed with Haley Williams.
Hi, everybody, Paramore, hi,still long enough to listen to
yourself, like, sit with it longenough to have some
understanding about what itactually is.
Yeah, right, I think about,like you know, your parents
barging in and when you're a kidand telling you, like, why are
you doing this?
I, we talked about this a bunchof times, right, and you so
badly want to be like because ofthis.
(40:43):
This is what's actually goingon.
Let me explain myself to you,right, and I think and not
having the opportunity to dothat To me, mindful self
compassion, or at least whatyou've explained about it so far
, or the self kindness piece ofit, I guess can be that thing
that allows you to sit therelong enough to be curious about
it.
Just be curious about it andwhere it's coming up and have a
(41:05):
little bit more understanding,and then that's going to point
you in the right direction ofwhat you actually have to do
next you know, and maybe it'stherapy and it probably is
everybody.
Kristen Genzano (41:18):
Oh, I appreciate you so much.
Brooke Monaghan (41:22):
Kristen, this is so fun.
I'm really glad we finally didthis and I am so excited for you
to teach this in Fruition inJanuary.
It's so needed and I'm justreally grateful to have you be a
part of it.
Kristen Genzano (41:37):
Thank you, Brooke.
I'm grateful for everything youdo and for the opportunity to
have this conversation and toteach in January.
It's going to be a good timeyeah, as good as learning self
compassion can be.
Brooke Monaghan (41:47):
It'll be good, we'll do it together.
It's the kind of discomfortthat hopefully, if you're
listening, you're willing to bein with us.
The good kind of discomfort,yeah.
Kristen Genzano (41:56):
Join us.
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Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!