November 28, 2023 • 50 mins
There is so much information available for staying organized, prioritizing, and being productive as a business owner. But what if you are not neurotypical and the standard approach does not actually jive with how your brain operates?
Today I am joined by Justine Clay (she/her) who is a business coach and ADHD life coach to answer a listener question on how to get stuff done as someone with ADHD who has realized their old ways of operating were unhelpful, but doesn't have a new alternative that works.
Connect with Justine
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brooke Monaghan (00:07):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofMake your Business Work For You.
Today is a Q&A episode.
I pulled in my friend, JustineClay.
Justine is a business coach andalso a certified ADHD life
coach and speaker, and this wasperfect for today because we
have a question about running abusiness with competing
(00:29):
priorities, like family stuff,while navigating ADHD.
So we are going to have a greatconversation about this
question today.
A couple of reminders before wejump in.
First of all, you can head tojoinfruition.
com to submit questions of yourown for future episodes of the
podcast, and you can also joinus in the community there and
(00:50):
come to our bi-weeklyco-workings, our once monthly
networking for people who hatenetworking and our expert
contributor workshops.
The other is, if you have beenfinding value in this show, I
would love it so much if youhave not already for you to head
over to Apple Podcasts andleave us a rating and a review.
Helps us out quite a bit.
(01:11):
And if you could also share theepisodes with folks who you
know need to hear it, that is ahuge help as well.
We're jumping right into theQ&A today.
I hope that you enjoy.
I have been running my coachingbusiness for the past five years
(01:34):
on a part-time basis when mykids are in school.
It's been a slow burner, butthat's been okay, as I managed
lots of unpaid caring work too.
This is where me being dyslexiccomes in, because now I'm
everybody listening.
I'm starting to getself-conscious about the fact
that I'm reading this out loud.
It's okay, we're gonna getthrough it.
This past year, though, I havereally struggled with focus,
(01:57):
attention, prioritization.
I just don't know what the fuckto do when I sit at my desk.
How do people do this?
How do they know what to do?
Not coincidentally, I wasdiagnosed with ADHD inattentive
over a year ago.
I'm in my 40s.
I spent a good few months indenial about this diagnosis,
being angry about it and reallydealing with my own internal
(02:20):
ableism.
However, in recent months, Ihave been more accepting of my
needs and limitations.
Good news, you would think.
However, in doing that andbeing kinder to myself, surprise
, surprise,my old ways of powering through
and forcing myself to actneurotypical are not working.
In theory, this is good news,right, but the day-to-day
(02:40):
practical reality of this isthat I no longer have a way, a
structure, to do my work.
Yes, the old way was harmful,but at least shit got done.
Now I'm just floating aroundand feeling like shit.
So my question is really aboutwhen someone has executive
functioning limitations, timeand date blindness and inability
to prioritize, how can Isupport myself in my business so
(03:02):
that the work that I ampassionate about and have great
clarity around my vision, myprocess, my offerings thanks to
Brooke but I am so limited inthe accountability, delivery and
prioritization of tasks.
It's so exhausting.
I imagine the solution lies inusing tools, systems and
(03:22):
calendars to support me and I amso resistant to this, like a
child about to have a tantrum.
Thank you for reading this.
It's so long.
Feel free to amend it.
We are not amending it.
We are here for the wholequestion.
Justine, thoughts.
Justine Clay (03:40):
OK thoughts.
So what I love about my ADHDclients is you always get
context right and lots of it,and I love it because it's
helpful and people are alwaysworried, like you know.
Is she tracking?
Is she not tracking?
I'm tracking, so I think itmight be beneficial for me to
(04:01):
just maybe articulate what Iheard in there.
Maybe just tease some of thesalient points out and we can
maybe just tackle them fromthere.
How does that sound?
[Brooke Monaghan] Love it[Justine Clay] All right, all
right.
So first thing I hear this is awoman in her 40s, she is a
mother, she is an entrepreneur,she was recently diagnosed with
(04:26):
ADHD inattentive presentationand she's been running her
coaching business for five years, full time.
So this is just even when I'mthinking about, I'm just
connecting with who the personis and my first thought is
that's a lot of things going on,right, so no wonder it's
(04:49):
exhausting, no wonder she'sexhausted.
I want to just call that out,that this is a lot of things,
right.
Brooke Monaghan (04:58):
Yeah, like maybe you're not broken because
you're exhausted and maybe thisis an exhausting situation.
Justine Clay (05:05):
Exactly, exactly.
This is a very natural responseto a lot of stuff happening
right.
And then what I really hear aswell and this is so common and I
hear it a lot, especially withwe have adults, but I would even
specify women, who get an adultdiagnosis there's such a lot of
(05:26):
emotional stuff that goes alongwith that, because, as we're
now learning, adhd is not a boysthing, it's an equally boys and
girls thing.
It's just that girls presentdifferently.
Patrons means that we mask andwe cover up and we are like the
good one, so we struggle sort ofbehind the scenes, but
(05:49):
meanwhile we are stillstruggling right and so with all
of this, but not letting anyonesee it, whereas it's fine for
the little boys to be bouncingoff the walls and being
hyperactive or whatever it is,and that's okay, right.
So one of the things I'vealready heard and I should just
clarify I'm neurotypical, but Iam the parent of a child with
(06:09):
ADHD, I'm the wife of a man withADHD and I'm a coach for folks
with ADHD.
So one of the things I'veobserved from all of those
people in my worlds that receivean adult diagnosis, especially
women, is there's a lot of griefthat goes along with it.
That needs to be processed.
And, as anyone who knows evennothing about grief, we all know
(06:33):
that it's not a linear process.
We all know that it's reallycomplex and really nuanced and
can kind of really go on, youknow, for a long time.
There's layers and layers andlayers of it.
So just the fact that she onlygot this diagnosis a year ago is
this is still fresh.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah, yeah.
[Justine Clay] And it's goingto be a lot of those things.
And now let's put on top of itthe emotional work that comes
(06:58):
from, as she said, recognizingher own internal ableism.
I experienced that as themother of a child with ADHD.
It's not cute, right?
That's not.
That's confronting and deepwork.
So there's a lot of thingsgoing on there.
So I just want to like oh, no,that as well.
(07:19):
Yeah, this stuff takes time andspace and a whole ton of
compassion and all thepreparations on how to actually
doing the work.
Brooke Monaghan (07:30):
Yeah, and I just want to note for the sake
of anybody listening, it soundslike you're saying anyone who,
basically anyone who is likeassigned female, right, like
anyone who went through beingassigned female and then having
those expectations put on you.
It's a unique experiencebecause of what we know about
(07:56):
well.
I mean, I feel like I know anawful lot about this from being
finding out that I was dyslexicvery late in life.
But similar thing, it's likethere's just very people who are
assigned female are expected tohandle it in a much different
way and the expectations on thatgroup of people are very
(08:17):
different.
Justine Clay (08:18):
Absolutely and yeah, it's a good sort of
reflection of what I was tryingto communicate, so absolutely.
And the other thing that shementioned in there that I also I
have two kids myself.
I've got an eight year old anda 12 year old is that, no matter
how much you have boundariesand a great partner and all of
(08:39):
these things, the fact of thematter is that the majority of
the labor at home does fall onthe woman.
No matter how hard you try toget out from underneath it,
there's still.
Even if you manage to carve outmore equity in the division of
labor at home, it's still aHerculean effort.
You're still fighting againstsocietal norms.
(09:00):
You're fighting against yourparents and teachers and the
teacher emailing me if there'ssomething going with the kid or
not, emailing my husband, right,well, it's like death by a
thousand cuts.
So just also just toacknowledge that she's got all
of these things that she'sjuggling while dealing with the,
(09:22):
not just the diagnosis but thenthe awareness around the
limitations that come with abrainwiring that works that way
in a neurotypical world, Ishould say [Brooke Monaghan]
Right.
[Justine Clay] I'm not sayingthat brainwiring is limited,
it's just with the working in aneurotypical world, there's some
some gaps, right, what I hearher struggles are focus,
(09:52):
attention and prioritization.
That's what I hear her saying,primarily in tests, in multiple
ways.
And then there's a question I'dlove to ask later which is?
Or I could ask it now which is?
And she says I imagine thesolution lies in using tools,
systems, calendars to support me.
And I'm so resistant to this.
(10:12):
And she even talks about beinglike a child, about to throw a
tantrum.
I'm so curious about that.
I wish she was here so I couldsay what's that about?
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah.
[Justine Clay] I've gotthoughts, I've got some ideas,
but you know, if we can'tprioritize, focus, struggle with
(10:32):
time blindness and all of thesethings, yes, it's hard to get
shit done, and she's evolvedbeyond being like an asshole to
herself.
I hope it's okay that I justsaid that on your podcast.
Brooke Monaghan (10:45):
Yes, we are here for all of the swearing.
Justine Clay (10:47):
Okay, All right, Like she was just like being a
mean neurotypical asshole toherself and now she's like no,
that doesn't serve me.
But what I'm hearing is thatthere's a gap between the old
way that she knew, becausethat's all that's been modeled
her whole life probably, butdidn't work for her, and she
(11:07):
hasn't yet found what the newthing is.
And it makes sense right thatif the diagnosis was only a year
ago, it makes perfect sensethat all of the things that have
worked, even in a reallyimperfect way, for 40 years,
you've got to now come up with anew playbook.
So for me it makes all thesense in the world that she's
(11:32):
exhausted, that she feels lost,that she doesn't know what will
work for her, because that's acompletely reasonable response
to what she's got going on.
Brooke Monaghan (11:46):
As I was hearing you talk about the.
You know what's that about,with feeling like a kid, about
to throw a tantrum.
It reminds me of my ownexperience, not with ADHD, but
again with dyslexia, and thisperson was trying to sell me a
(12:09):
book or something like that, andI think that I just we were
like walking.
I was walking down the streetand this person was like, oh you
, should, you know, read my bookor something, and gave me like
something and I didn't know,somewhere along the line,
something came up.
He was being very pushy and Ithink that at some point I was
just like I'm dyslexic, talk tothat person.
I pointed to the other personthat was with me like talk to
(12:32):
them, they love reading.
Like don't talk.
And he was like well, dyslexicpeople can read.
I don't know if you're aware ofthat, and I wanted to be like if
one more person tells me that Ican learn how to do this, well,
because it was like my wholeupbringing as a kid, right, was
like that.
Well, first of all, I mean noone, no one ever acknowledged
(12:54):
that I even had a reading issue.
But the being told like, justdo this.
I now have very strongreactions to it now, later in
life.
And so I do kind of wonder if,like there, if some of what
might be happening and you hadsaid being a neurotypical
asshole to yourself, some ofwhat might be happening here is
like yeah, of course you wouldthink that it has to do with
(13:17):
these things, because probablysomewhere along the line people
were like well, just use thetools that are available.
That's what I do and it worksfine.
And of course your reaction isgoing to be fuck off and leave
me alone, because how long haveyou been told that, and now
you're gaslighting yourself.
Justine Clay (13:32):
Exactly, exactly, and I think that what you're
talking about there is somethingthat, like, people just say,
well, why don't you just use acalendar?
Well, no shit Sherlock.
I didn't think that, right, ofcourse I tried using a calendar.
Of course I've tried writing alist, right, or you just need to
(13:54):
get up an hour earlier, orthere's such like oblivion or
obliviousness in all of thisadvice coming from people who
don't know what it feels like tobe writing with the equipment
that you have, and every personis unique, right?
So there was a saying in mycoaching course.
(14:17):
It was you've met one personwith ADHD.
You've met one person with ADHD, right?
It's sure it's the same withdyslexia and anything else.
Brooke Monaghan (14:27):
It presents very differently and also with
anything it's like really whatwe're talking about is just that
you check a certain number ofcriteria and we've decided that
you check enough of the criteriato be grouped into this one
thing.
But, like these, like harshcategories don't really exist in
the way that, like with anykind of I mean most of what
(14:49):
we're diagnosing with peoplewith that has to do with
anything mental.
So, yeah, it presents totallydifferently, and so what works
for you is going to be probablysomething that you have to
figure out for yourself, and Ican imagine that's incredibly
frustrating.
Justine Clay (15:07):
Absolutely, and I think that what you said about
your experience I think it alsojust reminds me, and why I was
curious was I wonder if sheknows why.
[Brooke Monaghan] Oh, yeah,yeah.
[Justine Clay] Because I thinkthat's important, right, I think
it's important for us to like,as you say, I know why I reject
someone telling me what to dobecause I've always been told
(15:28):
what to do by people who had nodamn idea what was the hell was
going on or what they weretalking about.
Right, if we know that, we canjust be like.
It's not that the toolsthemselves are bad.
I'm just resistant to thepeople who keep telling me to
use the thing and the way thatthey use it.
That's my, my beef, right?
(15:49):
But I think that's interestingbecause there are some things
that you can pretty muchdisregard as like common wisdom,
and the first is that you needto be a morning person.
So many with ADHD have a laterhythm, so their best hours may
be between midnight and four am.
So first things first is youdon't have to be a morning
(16:13):
person.
Brooke Monaghan (16:16):
Wait, so you're saying that there is a
correlation between ADHD andhaving a late rhythm?
[Justine Clay] Yes.
[Brooke Monaghan] Interesting,I did not know that.
Justine Clay (16:23):
Yes, like that, my husband being one of them.
When I met him, he would go tobed at like one, two every
morning and like a, you know,like me, like a neurotypical
person sometimes, but he fightsit every night it's a fight,
because when the day quiets down, if you think about you know,
(16:43):
and you know I've heard peopledescribe this way and it's
overly simplistic, but, like youknow, having a billion browsers
open in your brain, like that'skind of how it feels, right,
there's just a lot of input andthere's just a less filtering of
information.
ust the flow of information andpaying attention to all of it,
(17:04):
or random parts equally.
So imagine that that's yourwhole day right and the brain
isn't just sifting things out orsaying I'm gonna set that aside
or I'm not gonna think about it.
Just it's taking all in.
So then imagine now you get to11 o'clock, the kids are in bed,
the dishwasher is going this ismy husband I'm using him as an
example and then he's like hepicks up his bass and he starts
(17:27):
playing a little bit.
He could lose two hours thatway.
It's how his brain, like therhythm of the guitar and just
like being on his own and beingable to just like hyper focus in
on something, is relaxing tohim.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah, thatmakes total sense.
[Justine Clay] In like therecalibration, right.
(17:49):
And so for folks that say,struggle with prioritization,
struggle with organizing, youknow what to do, or bless you if
they're working in a you knowan environment where people are
throwing deadlines at them andit's just super high stress, you
know nighttime might be thetime when they can actually work
on something.
No one's around and I thinkthere's also don't quote me on
(18:14):
this but I think there's alsobiologically, the rhythm skews
late anyway.
So I think it's a biologicalcomponent, yeah, and then sort
of a social component, does thatmake sense?
[Brooke Monaghan] Totally yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (18:30):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I did not, I didn't, I was notaware of that.
Justine Clay (18:35):
Oh and another thing they can disregard, that
you can only work on one thingat a time.
Most folks.
If you say to them you're gonnawork on this project, they're
gonna just freeze.
But if you're like here's threeprojects, you pick what one you
wanna start on or how you wannawork on them.
Here's the expectations hereare the whatever.
But that's a lot easier forfolks.
(18:56):
[Brooke Monaghan] Oh, okay.
That's what general contractors.
Our general contractor.
He's as ADHD as they come, Iswear.
He's like buzzing around doingall of the things, but you can't
get him to send you an email.
You can ask him to get like oneinvoice sent to you.
You know he's zipping arounddoing all of the things that
he's got all in his head.
Brooke Monaghan (19:14):
Right, right.
So what I'm --What immediately comes to mind
for me hearing that because Ihave worked with so many people
who have had such a hard timetrying to figure out systems
that work for them is that, likefor some people, it works
really well for them to havelike a plan and it's like just
show up at your desk.
I'm like this I wanna show up atmy desk and I wanna have my
(19:35):
list of the five things that Idecided I was gonna do that day
and I wanna do those five things.
For other people, it works alot better to have like a much
longer list of things, maybeprioritize, like which of these
things are like they need to getdone, and but then show up and
like choose which ones you'regonna do that day, on the day of
, and do them when it feels goodfor you, and maybe you allow
(19:56):
yourself to do some things thatare not quote unquote work
related during the day, knowingyou might come back to it later
at night and maybe you know, andif that works for you, like
that works a lot better for somepeople and it sounds like in
this person's case, that's moreof what they're craving and
you're saying that that'sactually gonna work better
anyways, to give themselves alittle bit more flexibility.
(20:18):
[Justine Clay] Yeah, totally so.
[Brooke Monaghan] Interesting.
Justine Clay (20:22):
That was a great reframe of what I was saying
that you pulled out exactly theperfect point.
So, exactly so.
But what they're then dealingwith is they're having to then
swim upstream against what theyare told is the right way to do
things or what is productive.
And so that's where, like, justhaving that sense of confidence
and autonomy about like no,this is how I do this, which, by
(20:46):
the way, is why so manyneurodivergent people are also
entrepreneurs, because they'reworking their way and they can
work on their own hours, right?
Yeah, to your point, get thethings out of the way that you.
Still it can't be completelyopen, because then it's low
container.
But if there are certain things, and then there's only one
(21:09):
thing I would say you shouldhave a routine about.
Admin, because admin is likekryptonite for most folks I know
with ADHD.
It's like there are some rulesabout anything with ADHD that I
think I've learned, orprinciples let's say.
Make it interesting, make itmeaningful, make it visual, make
(21:31):
it visible and mix it up.
So, for the most part, admindoesn't check any of those boxes
.
The most you can really do islike I'm gonna make it
meaningful in that, like I'mdoing this thing so that my
business runs, I make this money, I can put my kid into whatever
(21:53):
.
It's gotta be connected tosomething else, not just like
admin for the sake of it.
And so that's so difficult forfolks to kind of get over that
hump, I would say Friday morning, no negotiation, or whatever
day it is, that's admin day andyou just get it done because
you're never gonna wanna do itand waiting for that inspiration
(22:13):
to strike.
And then what happens is whenfolks do neglect that and they
don't know where their invoicesare and they haven't invoiced
for the job, and now they startgetting into financial
situations and then that isreally stressful.
So that's the one thing whereI'm a bit more of a hard ass and
just like that's the one thing.
You've just gotta like get overyourself and do the damn thing,
(22:37):
because once you start, for themost part it's okay.
Brooke Monaghan (22:40):
Yeah, and it sounds too like something that
comes up as you say that thatI'm curious about is like, or
that I would add, maybe isgetting curious about how you
like little things that you cando that make doing the boring
stuff more enjoyable.
So one of my favorite hacksthis is a life hack of my life.
(23:06):
I use this all the time.
Things I don't wanna do, I dothem in the bathtub.
[Justine Clay] Amazing.
[Brooke Monaghan] I literally Icannot tell you how many
emails, I love writing salescopy and marketing, like
newsletters in the tub.
And is it risky that I have mylaptop on a bathboard across the
tub?
(23:26):
Yes, it is.
It's a risk that I am willingto take because I do my best
work in tub.
And things like anything I don'twanna do.
I'm like I'm gonna get in thebubble bath.
I don't care what time of dayit is, I'll do it in there.
But also things like just like.
Like sitting in a differentspot in your house that doesn't
feel like you're allowed to sitthere when you're working, you
(23:47):
know.
Like not doing it at your desk.
Or like making yourself like anice drink or something Like
doesn't need to be alcoholic,but like do you make yourself
like a fancy coffee drink everytime that you sit down for your
admin or something.
Or do you do your admin at well.
No, for ADHD people, maybedoing your admin at a coffee
shop is not a good idea, but doyou do your admin, like in a
(24:10):
different place.
That feels like, oh, I'm kindof breaking the rules a little
bit like.
This is a place this doesn'treally count as work, but this
is where I'm gonna get it done,you know.
Justine Clay (24:21):
Yeah, and sometimes putting yourself into
a sort of a novel environmentmight be enough to give it
interest and novelty, becausethat's the other thing is like
the ADHD brain like, likes newthings and it likes novelty and
interest and it hates boringthings, right, which is like we
can all relate to, which is kindof funny how she used the sort
(24:42):
of tantrum child thing, right,like it's just like it's a good
analogy.
Yeah, our brains are sometimesso.
I love that and it's funnybecause that's so personal to
you, because I'm one of thosepeople I'm not a bath person and
I never have been.
So I'm hearing this and I'mjust like, oh my God, I can't
think of anything worse, right.
But when you say the coffeeshop, I'm just like, oh yeah, I
like that idea and actually Ijust what, when I wanna write
(25:03):
something, because I'm in adifferent environment, I can't
really go anywhere.
It's kind of a treat because Ican have my coffee and my cake
or whatever it is.
So I gamify it or at least justmake it more interesting for
yourself.
Brooke Monaghan (25:19):
Yeah, yeah, so, okay.
So, admin, is the one thingthat you would say create some
kind of routine around.
You can get curious about howto make that routine a little
bit more bearable, but it's theone thing maybe to hold yourself
to.
And then what would you sayabout like, how to like, where
this person can start maybe tosort of work out a better system
(25:43):
for themselves, to like atleast feel like they know what
it is that they're doing andthey're doing the right things.
Justine Clay (25:49):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
So I think the first thing Iwould do is I always like to
look big picture at the businessand I would say what area of
the business feels most chaoticto me.
All my process right.
So the person who asked thisquestion.
(26:12):
The things that she was reallyasking for about was how do I
prioritize tasks, how to focuson delivery and accountability.
Those are the three things thatI pulled out of there.
So, with the prioritizing, Iwould say that I'm just looking
at my notes.
Right here We've talked aboutthe reframing of like structure
(26:35):
and productivity a little bit,whereby it's like, instead of
thinking about it being a linearthing or something that just
feels like really restrictiveand uncreative and tight, think
of it more like a framework,Like.
You know those I don't know ifyou were around when you were a
kid, but we used to have inEngland these climbing frames.
(26:55):
They're like a dome.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah, yeah,yeah! [Justine Clay] And then
you can climb on it any whichway, but literally you've got
kids climbing on the insideYou've got people using like a
monkey bar, right.
So the structure is there, butthen how you engage with it can
be multiple different ways,right.
So the first thing I wouldthink about is, like, what are
the areas of my business andthose kind of fall into, like
(27:18):
broadly, a few categories Valuecreation, value delivery,
marketing, sales, finance andadmin?
I'll say finance and admin inone, because, especially with
small businesses, film and aspop, you can push them in
together.
So it sounds to me like for themost especially ADHD folks and
(27:43):
creatives, is the value creationbit, which is like coming up
with the ideas, coming up withthe.
That's like try, stop that fromhappening, like you can't,
right, yeah, that's somethingthat it makes sense where she or
the creative or theentrepreneur should focus on
that stuff.
That's the unique, likeconnecting existing ideas in
(28:04):
newer, novel ways.
You know, all of that goodstuff that comes with divergent
thinking, right.
The value delivery.
Now that's where it's like howdoes this get out into the world
?
How does my framework live inthe world as a service, as a
product?
And I know that she says she'sdone a lot of work on that with
you, you know, identifying whatyour products are.
So then I would say, okay, ifthere's a delivery issue.
(28:29):
And one of the things I'velearned about my ADHD clients
too is like they love systems,they love processes.
It's not like they can't dothat right, but like what's the
way?
If you're visual, could youcome up with like a flow chart
and just be like write down allof the things that either I do
or I want to do or need tohappen?
Where are either they fallingin the gap or is the client
(28:51):
falling in the gap?
What's not working?
Where does it break down?
Is it that like they just hateanswering emails and so then
they get behind?
And then there's the clientcommunication thing, like that's
the problem, or is it that theynever bill the thing in time?
Or they don't have anonboarding process?
That's like tightened up enough.
When you know where the hole is, that you keep falling in, you
(29:16):
can build a process or a systemfor that.
Yeah, the whole thing aboutthat and I know you're a
processes and systems person isyou can create a process like
literally on a piece of paper,you can use a piece of software
or you can outsource it, usuallya combination of all three.
So what are you going to say?
Brooke Monaghan (29:37):
Well, as you were saying that, I was just
like yes, like I always say,like anytime that anyone's like,
oh, things feel so disorganized, like I need to come up with a
better system, I'm like, okay,feeling overwhelmed and feeling
like things are disorganized isa feeling.
Then there's an actual issuethat needs to be solved, and
(30:02):
they're two different things.
If you try to create a systemto make yourself not feel a
certain way, you're not reallygoing to hit the mark because
you're not actually solving it.
You're not actually creating asystem to solve.
You're going to put a balm onthis like emotional thing that
you're finding yourself in bycreating a system without
(30:22):
actually knowing what the systemis for.
So it's like the first thingyou have to do is like identify
what the actual problem is.
Justine Clay (30:28):
Exactly, exactly.
I have a slide in one of mywebinars for business strategies
for ADHD creatives and in thatI say, like a system is a very
specific solution to a veryspecific problem.
So there's not like a playbooksomewhere of the systems you
(30:49):
need to have in your business.
You make them up to resolve aproblem or achieve efficiency in
something you're doing againand again and again and again
and again that you don'tpersonally need to be doing
again and again and again or inall different ways reinventing
the wheel every time.
So you're right, it's just likeyou know, and that's a thing is
(31:11):
a lot of times with you knowsort of folks of ADHD is they do
feel overwhelmed a lot.
So even just that parsing out,I feel overwhelmed.
It's not a system for feelingoverwhelmed.
But let me look what's thething that causes me the most
agita?
You can just look at it andbreak it down into like the
(31:33):
parts of a business which aren'tthat many.
Then there's usually somewherewhere you're like oh, here's
where it keeps going on, becauseI hate doing bookkeeping, and
because I hate doing bookkeeping, I don't know what my numbers
are.
And because I don't know whatmy numbers are, I feel like I
have no value or no worth.
And because I do that, I'mreally shit at sales calls,
(31:54):
right, it could.
Just if I knew what was comingin and going out, I'd feel
pretty proud of myself or I'dknow what I need to do.
But I'd have clarity and itmight.
I don't want to do bigbookkeeping Hallelujah, I
celebrate the decision, but thenfind someone else that can do
it for you.
Right, don't just ignore it,right?
But now we have a very specificproblem or diagnosis I don't
(32:18):
like doing bookkeeping andthat's the cause of all of the
financial distress I'm feelingthat's now bleeding out into all
the other parts of my business.
The solution for that is I needsomeone to do my bookkeeping
and, yes, I need a software, andI probably need someone that
can come in and clean it all upand get it all on an even scale
or whatever right and then itbecomes a very I'm not saying an
(32:42):
easy problem to solve, but avery clear problem to solve.
Brooke Monaghan (32:46):
Right, yeah, totally, yeah, totally.
So for this person, you know,one of the things that she had
said was struggling withprioritization, and so it sounds
like what you're saying is likeokay, so if you so, like, let's
start with prioritization, thenlet's get specific about, like,
(33:07):
is it actually that?
Is it that you are not surewhat any of the tasks are that
need to get done and so there'snothing to prioritize?
Is it that you know what needsto get done but you haven't sat
down and actually decided, like,what are the things that are
most important?
Is it that you know, like, whatis actually happening around
prioritization, or are you justtelling yourself a story that
(33:28):
you're a person who doesn't knowhow to prioritize stuff, or
you're really dropping the ballwith prioritization, because
that would make sense that youwould be telling yourself that
story as somebody who'sneurodivergent and is living in
a you know, in a neurotypicalworld, and it was probably told
that you don't prioritize well,yeah, right, and so, yeah, it's
(33:50):
like parsing that out, likewhere's the thing that you're
telling yourself and then like,what's the actual thing that's
happening in there and how canwe get specific on it?
Then you can come up with asystem and whatever that system
is really.
The only thing that matters isthat you do it, yeah.
Justine Clay (34:05):
Exactly.
And here's the other thing.
This is something I learnedwhen I had babies.
They're just like an enigma.
You don't know what the hellthey need.
If anyone tells me, oh, I knowwhat cry means what I'm just
like I call BS because it's alljust noise to me.
It's like you don't know whatto do.
There's no handbook, right.
(34:26):
And then you figure somethingout and you're like I cracked it
.
And then next week it's likeyeah, and then you have the
second kid and then you thinkokay, I got this, and that's a
completely different alien,right?
Like the first one.
So it's a little bit like thatwith someone who has a
neurodivergent brain is like,stop thinking that if you can
(34:50):
just find the right silverbullet, the right process, the
right this, everything will befine.
This is going to be a grab bag,an ever-shifting landscape, and
that just comes with theterritory of having this
fantastic creative brain.
Like you know, there's a Idon't know which guy it is that,
I think it's Hallowell who saysthat.
Like you know, when he'stalking to kids about ADHD he
(35:12):
talks to, he describes it ashaving a race car brain with
bicycle brakes, a Ferrari brain.
And so if you acknowledge andjust say, like it's always going
to be changing, it's alwaysgoing to be shifting.
I'm going to have to keepmixing it up, so I need a grab
bag of tools and things I cantry.
(35:34):
Then you don't beat yourself upabout like, why do I keep blah,
blah, blah?
My husband often says when heloses his keys.
I'm driving myself crazy.
And I'm like.
Yeah, me too.
A little, you know just.
But you know what I mean.
It's just like that's not kindto yourself.
Yeah, I didn't put them in thebowl that we put there for okay.
(35:59):
Well, that happens sometimes,but 90% of the time they end up
in the bowl now because we putthe bowl there for the keys.
Brooke Monaghan (36:04):
What I'm hearing and what you're saying,
and this is something that Ihave.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes that I have taken out
like a planner or something andthen like, look at this planner,
look at how well I had itfilled out for like three weeks,
and then there's nothing afterthat.
And then I moved to a differentsystem.
I happened to have fallen intoa system that's worked for me
for the past couple of yearswith Asana, but, like, still
there's things that I'm alwaysdipping in and out of, but I
(36:28):
have found that so many peopleneed permission to use something
for a period of time that worksfor them and then, if you stop
using that system -- [JustineClay] You didn't fail.
[Brooke Monaghan] No, and Ialways am like, listen, like you
have a choice.
At that point, you can eitherput your energy into beating
(36:48):
yourself up for the fact thatyou're not sticking with the
system, or you could just usewhatever feels good for you this
week and keep moving.
The goal is not to like figureout a way to be a perfectly
productive person.
We've all thought that was thegoal because of the systems that
we've lived in, the fact thatwe've been programmed to think
that that is our job as humanbeings, and also I know the
(37:10):
person who wrote in thisquestion and I know that that's
not actually what you value.
So it's like, how do you kindof put those values into action
and start to put your energytoward just making forward
progress in whatever way worksfor you that day, and less
energy into how do I make myselfwork in a way that I've seen
(37:33):
other people working that I'vetold myself was the right way to
do it?
Justine Clay (37:37):
Agreed.
You know, it wasn't until I metmy husband almost 40, and I was
reading a book.
And I was just like, and I readand read, and read.
I love reading.
And I was just like I hate thisbook, I can't wait till I'm
finished with it.
And he was like, why don't youjust stop reading it?
And I'm like I was literally Ithought I was not allowed to not
(38:00):
finish a book.
Now I just I love the showFriday Night Lights.
I had the book.
I didn't get very far throughthe first time.
The second time I was stuckwith it.
I'm probably 40 pages andthere's a big book, less 20
pages from the end.
I just put it away again.
I'm like I can't, I can'tfinish it, I'm just done.
(38:21):
Like like that's progress, butto that point.
I think sometimes, a lot oftimes, these answers are
unsatisfying to someone who'sjust like yes, I know but I need
something.
So I want to take an idea, asuggestion, and it's a concept
from Tiago Forte and it's thebuilding of a second brain right
(38:45):
.
So if we think about our brain,our brain we use as a storage
unit, as a calendar, as aproblem solving machine, as all
kinds of things, beautiful kindsof things that it's not
supposed to be used for.
Our brain is basicallysomething that makes guesses
(39:06):
what's going to happen, what allwe need to do in response to
that thing.
It's a predictor, a guesser,and it's a problem solving
machine.
That's it.
Now, if you think about someonewho has less than optimal
executive functioning and that'sat the conductor at the front,
there's just like a big right,You'll be a bit louder and like
(39:28):
no, you'll never be quite overhere.
And yes, trumpets really loud,please.
That guy's out to lunch, he'sdrunk, right.
So let's say, oh my God, Icompletely lost my train.
We can let the brain do its thing, which is
come up with ideas, connectthings in novel ways.
Where could that stuff liveoutside of your brain?
(39:53):
So what that looks like for meand the tool you use will be
different.
I have what I call a dashboard,a leadership dashboard in
Notion.
It was initially created byTara McMullin of Explore what
Works.
I love it.
You can make it your own, but init I have my three commitments.
I do one for each year, mycommitments for the year and
(40:17):
what that looks like in terms ofstrategic priorities.
So commitments are how am Igoing to show up?
What am I going to prioritizein my life?
Not goals.
So I'm going to commit tohaving deeper relationships,
experiences over stuff,community building.
Let's say those are mycommitments.
(40:38):
And then my strategicpriorities and I do it within
the context of business, butmight be I'm going to give more
talks, I'm going to do morein-person connecting with folks
and blah, blah, blah.
Right, so these are mypriorities.
Then you can have your valuesin there.
So the things that are theseguiding principles.
So, if you think of it like as,like a one-pager, where it's
(40:58):
almost like a cheat sheet, allthe things I said mattered and
all the things I said I wantedto focus on.
So then I've got, like, myquarterly goals.
Let's focus a bit less on that.
But then I've got my projects.
I've got my active projects,I've got my projects for next
quarter and I've got my projectsfor the year.
(41:20):
And the reason I like Notion isbecause you can have tiles and
you can put an image in there,so there's a little visual and
then there's a title so I cansee it and you can move them
around.
You can just drag it todifferent places and I have what
am I tracking?
And those are like the thingslike numbers, right, like how
many intro calls did I have.
One of the things that I canconnect with that are gonna tell
(41:42):
me how, what am I doing?
And it's so simple.
It's just a one-pager you can.
And then I've got a spot whereI can put ideas.
So if I have an idea forsomething when I'm out for a
walk, I'm not now like, oh myGod, I have to go build that
program right now.
Right, I'm like it's a goodidea.
Now is not the time for me toflush this out because I said
I'm gonna do this thing.
It's in my projects list.
(42:04):
So it's a way where we can likenot lose the things.
It has to live outside of ourbrain and be on your phone.
It can be here.
You can make it a mix of visualas well as everything else.
And it's this cheat sheet.
And it's like so anytime shesits down she's like what the
fuck am I gonna do today?
She can open up that thing thatshe created when she was
(42:26):
feeling more centered, moreconnected to what she wants to
do, and she's like well, I'vegot any one of five projects I
could work on right now, right,oh, wait a minute.
It's Friday at noon, that'sbookkeeping time, but that'll
just take me an hour.
I don't know how that rolls now.
And any one of these projects,let me pick something.
Brooke Monaghan (42:47):
Yeah, just giving yourself a external thing
that you can look at to remindyourself of, like what you said
was important, yeah, and whatyou said that you were gonna
focus on and what you can do.
And then, but then in thatmoment, giving yourself the
flexibility to choose, and Iwonder if what could be helpful
(43:07):
as like a tangible thing thatthis person might be able to do.
As I'm hearing you say this,Justine, I'm thinking like what
I would wanna do and listen.
I am so overwhelmed right nowand luckily I have a second
brain and my second brain iscalled Asana.
But if I didn't have it, what Iwould be so tempted to do is I
(43:27):
would wanna sit down and I wouldwanna like brain dump every
single thing that felt like itwas knocking around in my brain
and then look at that and belike, okay, what are there like
categories here that I can kindof like organize things into and
then make your own, whatever itis and it doesn't need to be in
Notion, like you could put iton post-its if you wanted to and
like put it on your wall.
(43:48):
[Justine Clay] You could useyour board and just put it on
your wall exactly.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah but thenat least it's like it's out of
your brain and you are nothaving to put energy into
worrying that you're gonna misssomething which is only draining
capacity from being able toactually execute on the things.
Justine Clay (44:05):
Exactly.
I always like to think ofexecutive function as like, like
the battery that we see on our,you know, on our computer.
And I say, every time we haveto keep making decisions, every
time we have to create choices,every time we have to remember
to do something, we're likedraining.
Brooke Monaghan (44:20):
Yeah.
Justine Clay (44:21):
Like just faster, and you wanna keep that battery
as like full as possible, right,and be utilized.
So things that matter to you,not on a bunch of stuff that
doesn't matter, which is likeworrying because I feel so
overwhelmed.
Right, that's not - not to sayit doesn't matter, but just it's
a big output functioning right,that could be negated,
(44:45):
potentially.
Brooke Monaghan (44:46):
Justine, is there anything that, like we
have not chatted about inresponse to this question, that
you feel like is important forus to speak to?
Justine Clay (44:54):
[Justine Clay] The accountability piece, that's
kind of like closing the loop onthis stuff, right, Because we
have the feelings and you and Iwere in a coaching group
together for a long time when wehave a problem in our business
a legit problem, but it'susually layered with a whole
bunch of emotions that come fromus, some of this, some
(45:17):
background, right.
And then when you have otherpeople around you, they say,
well, what I'm hearing is aconflation of these two things,
or remember that thing that youdid here, or I had that
experience and like, this is howI did this, and then you just
say, oh okay, no big deal, right, and then you go away and you
do it and you're done, right, Ithink accountability is really
(45:38):
great, and accountability canlook like lots of different ways
right, it could be a coach, itcould be a group, or it could be
a few friends that also aresmall business owners I did that
for years where it's like youmeet every like, whatever once a
week in the morning and youjust have someone.
And there are a few simplequestions what are the three
(45:59):
things you're working on rightnow?
Or what's the one thing you'reworking on right now.
What's the thing that you'restruggling with?
What support do you need?
Getting it out of your head isso amazing.
So to build that sort offeedback loop with a few trusted
people or one trusted person orwhatever, is amazing.
(46:19):
The other thing is you can dobody doubling.
That's something that is anADHD thing and you can just look
up body doubling and you caneither create your own, but also
there are places that just hostthem so you can pay a little
bit like a coworking space.
You show up, it's a Zoom room.
Sometimes you talk, sometimesyou don't.
It's for a certain amount oftime.
Brooke Monaghan (46:41):
We do them twice a month in Fruition for
free.
So join fruition.
com, everybody come and join us.
We have a Friday in thebeginning of the month and a
Monday at the end of the month,and it's totally silent and we
block 90 minutes and you can putin the chat what it is that you
want to accomplish during thattime and nothing is recorded.
You don't even need to be onvideo.
(47:02):
And when I tell you that I getso much done during that time,
I'm like why haven't I beendoing this the whole time?
Justine Clay (47:09):
Yes, so there you go.
So that's the final piece toher question.
I think we spoke aboutprioritization, we spoke about
delivery and we spoke aboutaccountability.
Brooke Monaghan (47:18):
Yeah, amazing.
[Justine Clay] I hope thathelps her [Brooke Monaghan]
Thank you.
Justine, yeah, and I alsounderstand the.
It can be so frustrating whenyou just want an answer, but,
truly, when you are trying tofind something that works for
you, when you're realizing thatyou don't do things in a typical
(47:39):
way, forcing yourself into ananswer is the opposite of the
actual answer, which is to getcurious about your own
experience and what actuallyworks for you.
Yeah, yeah, but thank you forall of these tips.
This has been a greatconversation.
I know so many people are goingto need this and I really
(48:01):
enjoyed connecting with you onthis.
Justine Clay (48:03):
Thank you.
Thanks for inviting me to chatwith you.
I loved it.
[Brooke Monaghan] Of course.
Hi everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofMake your Business Work For You.
Today is a Q&A episode.
I pulled in my friend, JustineClay.
Justine is a business coach andalso a certified ADHD life
coach and speaker, and this wasperfect for today because we
have a question about running abusiness with competing
(00:29):
priorities, like family stuff,while navigating ADHD.
So we are going to have a greatconversation about this
question today.
A couple of reminders before wejump in.
First of all, you can head tojoinfruition.
com to submit questions of yourown for future episodes of the
podcast, and you can also joinus in the community there and
(00:50):
come to our bi-weeklyco-workings, our once monthly
networking for people who hatenetworking and our expert
contributor workshops.
The other is, if you have beenfinding value in this show, I
would love it so much if youhave not already for you to head
over to Apple Podcasts andleave us a rating and a review.
Helps us out quite a bit.
(01:11):
And if you could also share theepisodes with folks who you
know need to hear it, that is ahuge help as well.
We're jumping right into theQ&A today.
I hope that you enjoy.
I have been running my coachingbusiness for the past five years
(01:34):
on a part-time basis when mykids are in school.
It's been a slow burner, butthat's been okay, as I managed
lots of unpaid caring work too.
This is where me being dyslexiccomes in, because now I'm
everybody listening.
I'm starting to getself-conscious about the fact
that I'm reading this out loud.
It's okay, we're gonna getthrough it.
This past year, though, I havereally struggled with focus,
(01:57):
attention, prioritization.
I just don't know what the fuckto do when I sit at my desk.
How do people do this?
How do they know what to do?
Not coincidentally, I wasdiagnosed with ADHD inattentive
over a year ago.
I'm in my 40s.
I spent a good few months indenial about this diagnosis,
being angry about it and reallydealing with my own internal
(02:20):
ableism.
However, in recent months, Ihave been more accepting of my
needs and limitations.
Good news, you would think.
However, in doing that andbeing kinder to myself, surprise
, surprise,my old ways of powering through
and forcing myself to actneurotypical are not working.
In theory, this is good news,right, but the day-to-day
(02:40):
practical reality of this isthat I no longer have a way, a
structure, to do my work.
Yes, the old way was harmful,but at least shit got done.
Now I'm just floating aroundand feeling like shit.
So my question is really aboutwhen someone has executive
functioning limitations, timeand date blindness and inability
to prioritize, how can Isupport myself in my business so
(03:02):
that the work that I ampassionate about and have great
clarity around my vision, myprocess, my offerings thanks to
Brooke but I am so limited inthe accountability, delivery and
prioritization of tasks.
It's so exhausting.
I imagine the solution lies inusing tools, systems and
(03:22):
calendars to support me and I amso resistant to this, like a
child about to have a tantrum.
Thank you for reading this.
It's so long.
Feel free to amend it.
We are not amending it.
We are here for the wholequestion.
Justine, thoughts.
Justine Clay (03:40):
OK thoughts.
So what I love about my ADHDclients is you always get
context right and lots of it,and I love it because it's
helpful and people are alwaysworried, like you know.
Is she tracking?
Is she not tracking?
I'm tracking, so I think itmight be beneficial for me to
(04:01):
just maybe articulate what Iheard in there.
Maybe just tease some of thesalient points out and we can
maybe just tackle them fromthere.
How does that sound?
[Brooke Monaghan] Love it[Justine Clay] All right, all
right.
So first thing I hear this is awoman in her 40s, she is a
mother, she is an entrepreneur,she was recently diagnosed with
(04:26):
ADHD inattentive presentationand she's been running her
coaching business for five years, full time.
So this is just even when I'mthinking about, I'm just
connecting with who the personis and my first thought is
that's a lot of things going on,right, so no wonder it's
(04:49):
exhausting, no wonder she'sexhausted.
I want to just call that out,that this is a lot of things,
right.
Brooke Monaghan (04:58):
Yeah, like maybe you're not broken because
you're exhausted and maybe thisis an exhausting situation.
Justine Clay (05:05):
Exactly, exactly.
This is a very natural responseto a lot of stuff happening
right.
And then what I really hear aswell and this is so common and I
hear it a lot, especially withwe have adults, but I would even
specify women, who get an adultdiagnosis there's such a lot of
(05:26):
emotional stuff that goes alongwith that, because, as we're
now learning, adhd is not a boysthing, it's an equally boys and
girls thing.
It's just that girls presentdifferently.
Patrons means that we mask andwe cover up and we are like the
good one, so we struggle sort ofbehind the scenes, but
(05:49):
meanwhile we are stillstruggling right and so with all
of this, but not letting anyonesee it, whereas it's fine for
the little boys to be bouncingoff the walls and being
hyperactive or whatever it is,and that's okay, right.
So one of the things I'vealready heard and I should just
clarify I'm neurotypical, but Iam the parent of a child with
(06:09):
ADHD, I'm the wife of a man withADHD and I'm a coach for folks
with ADHD.
So one of the things I'veobserved from all of those
people in my worlds that receivean adult diagnosis, especially
women, is there's a lot of griefthat goes along with it.
That needs to be processed.
And, as anyone who knows evennothing about grief, we all know
(06:33):
that it's not a linear process.
We all know that it's reallycomplex and really nuanced and
can kind of really go on, youknow, for a long time.
There's layers and layers andlayers of it.
So just the fact that she onlygot this diagnosis a year ago is
this is still fresh.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah, yeah.
[Justine Clay] And it's goingto be a lot of those things.
And now let's put on top of itthe emotional work that comes
(06:58):
from, as she said, recognizingher own internal ableism.
I experienced that as themother of a child with ADHD.
It's not cute, right?
That's not.
That's confronting and deepwork.
So there's a lot of thingsgoing on there.
So I just want to like oh, no,that as well.
(07:19):
Yeah, this stuff takes time andspace and a whole ton of
compassion and all thepreparations on how to actually
doing the work.
Brooke Monaghan (07:30):
Yeah, and I just want to note for the sake
of anybody listening, it soundslike you're saying anyone who,
basically anyone who is likeassigned female, right, like
anyone who went through beingassigned female and then having
those expectations put on you.
It's a unique experiencebecause of what we know about
(07:56):
well.
I mean, I feel like I know anawful lot about this from being
finding out that I was dyslexicvery late in life.
But similar thing, it's likethere's just very people who are
assigned female are expected tohandle it in a much different
way and the expectations on thatgroup of people are very
(08:17):
different.
Justine Clay (08:18):
Absolutely and yeah, it's a good sort of
reflection of what I was tryingto communicate, so absolutely.
And the other thing that shementioned in there that I also I
have two kids myself.
I've got an eight year old anda 12 year old is that, no matter
how much you have boundariesand a great partner and all of
(08:39):
these things, the fact of thematter is that the majority of
the labor at home does fall onthe woman.
No matter how hard you try toget out from underneath it,
there's still.
Even if you manage to carve outmore equity in the division of
labor at home, it's still aHerculean effort.
You're still fighting againstsocietal norms.
(09:00):
You're fighting against yourparents and teachers and the
teacher emailing me if there'ssomething going with the kid or
not, emailing my husband, right,well, it's like death by a
thousand cuts.
So just also just toacknowledge that she's got all
of these things that she'sjuggling while dealing with the,
(09:22):
not just the diagnosis but thenthe awareness around the
limitations that come with abrainwiring that works that way
in a neurotypical world, Ishould say [Brooke Monaghan]
Right.
[Justine Clay] I'm not sayingthat brainwiring is limited,
it's just with the working in aneurotypical world, there's some
some gaps, right, what I hearher struggles are focus,
(09:52):
attention and prioritization.
That's what I hear her saying,primarily in tests, in multiple
ways.
And then there's a question I'dlove to ask later which is?
Or I could ask it now which is?
And she says I imagine thesolution lies in using tools,
systems, calendars to support me.
And I'm so resistant to this.
(10:12):
And she even talks about beinglike a child, about to throw a
tantrum.
I'm so curious about that.
I wish she was here so I couldsay what's that about?
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah.
[Justine Clay] I've gotthoughts, I've got some ideas,
but you know, if we can'tprioritize, focus, struggle with
(10:32):
time blindness and all of thesethings, yes, it's hard to get
shit done, and she's evolvedbeyond being like an asshole to
herself.
I hope it's okay that I justsaid that on your podcast.
Brooke Monaghan (10:45):
Yes, we are here for all of the swearing.
Justine Clay (10:47):
Okay, All right, Like she was just like being a
mean neurotypical asshole toherself and now she's like no,
that doesn't serve me.
But what I'm hearing is thatthere's a gap between the old
way that she knew, becausethat's all that's been modeled
her whole life probably, butdidn't work for her, and she
(11:07):
hasn't yet found what the newthing is.
And it makes sense right thatif the diagnosis was only a year
ago, it makes perfect sensethat all of the things that have
worked, even in a reallyimperfect way, for 40 years,
you've got to now come up with anew playbook.
So for me it makes all thesense in the world that she's
(11:32):
exhausted, that she feels lost,that she doesn't know what will
work for her, because that's acompletely reasonable response
to what she's got going on.
Brooke Monaghan (11:46):
As I was hearing you talk about the.
You know what's that about,with feeling like a kid, about
to throw a tantrum.
It reminds me of my ownexperience, not with ADHD, but
again with dyslexia, and thisperson was trying to sell me a
(12:09):
book or something like that, andI think that I just we were
like walking.
I was walking down the streetand this person was like, oh you
, should, you know, read my bookor something, and gave me like
something and I didn't know,somewhere along the line,
something came up.
He was being very pushy and Ithink that at some point I was
just like I'm dyslexic, talk tothat person.
I pointed to the other personthat was with me like talk to
(12:32):
them, they love reading.
Like don't talk.
And he was like well, dyslexicpeople can read.
I don't know if you're aware ofthat, and I wanted to be like if
one more person tells me that Ican learn how to do this, well,
because it was like my wholeupbringing as a kid, right, was
like that.
Well, first of all, I mean noone, no one ever acknowledged
(12:54):
that I even had a reading issue.
But the being told like, justdo this.
I now have very strongreactions to it now, later in
life.
And so I do kind of wonder if,like there, if some of what
might be happening and you hadsaid being a neurotypical
asshole to yourself, some ofwhat might be happening here is
like yeah, of course you wouldthink that it has to do with
(13:17):
these things, because probablysomewhere along the line people
were like well, just use thetools that are available.
That's what I do and it worksfine.
And of course your reaction isgoing to be fuck off and leave
me alone, because how long haveyou been told that, and now
you're gaslighting yourself.
Justine Clay (13:32):
Exactly, exactly, and I think that what you're
talking about there is somethingthat, like, people just say,
well, why don't you just use acalendar?
Well, no shit Sherlock.
I didn't think that, right, ofcourse I tried using a calendar.
Of course I've tried writing alist, right, or you just need to
(13:54):
get up an hour earlier, orthere's such like oblivion or
obliviousness in all of thisadvice coming from people who
don't know what it feels like tobe writing with the equipment
that you have, and every personis unique, right?
So there was a saying in mycoaching course.
(14:17):
It was you've met one personwith ADHD.
You've met one person with ADHD, right?
It's sure it's the same withdyslexia and anything else.
Brooke Monaghan (14:27):
It presents very differently and also with
anything it's like really whatwe're talking about is just that
you check a certain number ofcriteria and we've decided that
you check enough of the criteriato be grouped into this one
thing.
But, like these, like harshcategories don't really exist in
the way that, like with anykind of I mean most of what
(14:49):
we're diagnosing with peoplewith that has to do with
anything mental.
So, yeah, it presents totallydifferently, and so what works
for you is going to be probablysomething that you have to
figure out for yourself, and Ican imagine that's incredibly
frustrating.
Justine Clay (15:07):
Absolutely, and I think that what you said about
your experience I think it alsojust reminds me, and why I was
curious was I wonder if sheknows why.
[Brooke Monaghan] Oh, yeah,yeah.
[Justine Clay] Because I thinkthat's important, right, I think
it's important for us to like,as you say, I know why I reject
someone telling me what to dobecause I've always been told
(15:28):
what to do by people who had nodamn idea what was the hell was
going on or what they weretalking about.
Right, if we know that, we canjust be like.
It's not that the toolsthemselves are bad.
I'm just resistant to thepeople who keep telling me to
use the thing and the way thatthey use it.
That's my, my beef, right?
(15:49):
But I think that's interestingbecause there are some things
that you can pretty muchdisregard as like common wisdom,
and the first is that you needto be a morning person.
So many with ADHD have a laterhythm, so their best hours may
be between midnight and four am.
So first things first is youdon't have to be a morning
(16:13):
person.
Brooke Monaghan (16:16):
Wait, so you're saying that there is a
correlation between ADHD andhaving a late rhythm?
[Justine Clay] Yes.
[Brooke Monaghan] Interesting,I did not know that.
Justine Clay (16:23):
Yes, like that, my husband being one of them.
When I met him, he would go tobed at like one, two every
morning and like a, you know,like me, like a neurotypical
person sometimes, but he fightsit every night it's a fight,
because when the day quiets down, if you think about you know,
(16:43):
and you know I've heard peopledescribe this way and it's
overly simplistic, but, like youknow, having a billion browsers
open in your brain, like that'skind of how it feels, right,
there's just a lot of input andthere's just a less filtering of
information.
ust the flow of information andpaying attention to all of it,
(17:04):
or random parts equally.
So imagine that that's yourwhole day right and the brain
isn't just sifting things out orsaying I'm gonna set that aside
or I'm not gonna think about it.
Just it's taking all in.
So then imagine now you get to11 o'clock, the kids are in bed,
the dishwasher is going this ismy husband I'm using him as an
example and then he's like hepicks up his bass and he starts
(17:27):
playing a little bit.
He could lose two hours thatway.
It's how his brain, like therhythm of the guitar and just
like being on his own and beingable to just like hyper focus in
on something, is relaxing tohim.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah, thatmakes total sense.
[Justine Clay] In like therecalibration, right.
(17:49):
And so for folks that say,struggle with prioritization,
struggle with organizing, youknow what to do, or bless you if
they're working in a you knowan environment where people are
throwing deadlines at them andit's just super high stress, you
know nighttime might be thetime when they can actually work
on something.
No one's around and I thinkthere's also don't quote me on
(18:14):
this but I think there's alsobiologically, the rhythm skews
late anyway.
So I think it's a biologicalcomponent, yeah, and then sort
of a social component, does thatmake sense?
[Brooke Monaghan] Totally yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (18:30):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I did not, I didn't, I was notaware of that.
Justine Clay (18:35):
Oh and another thing they can disregard, that
you can only work on one thingat a time.
Most folks.
If you say to them you're gonnawork on this project, they're
gonna just freeze.
But if you're like here's threeprojects, you pick what one you
wanna start on or how you wannawork on them.
Here's the expectations hereare the whatever.
But that's a lot easier forfolks.
(18:56):
[Brooke Monaghan] Oh, okay.
That's what general contractors.
Our general contractor.
He's as ADHD as they come, Iswear.
He's like buzzing around doingall of the things, but you can't
get him to send you an email.
You can ask him to get like oneinvoice sent to you.
You know he's zipping arounddoing all of the things that
he's got all in his head.
Brooke Monaghan (19:14):
Right, right.
So what I'm --What immediately comes to mind
for me hearing that because Ihave worked with so many people
who have had such a hard timetrying to figure out systems
that work for them is that, likefor some people, it works
really well for them to havelike a plan and it's like just
show up at your desk.
I'm like this I wanna show up atmy desk and I wanna have my
(19:35):
list of the five things that Idecided I was gonna do that day
and I wanna do those five things.
For other people, it works alot better to have like a much
longer list of things, maybeprioritize, like which of these
things are like they need to getdone, and but then show up and
like choose which ones you'regonna do that day, on the day of
, and do them when it feels goodfor you, and maybe you allow
(19:56):
yourself to do some things thatare not quote unquote work
related during the day, knowingyou might come back to it later
at night and maybe you know, andif that works for you, like
that works a lot better for somepeople and it sounds like in
this person's case, that's moreof what they're craving and
you're saying that that'sactually gonna work better
anyways, to give themselves alittle bit more flexibility.
(20:18):
[Justine Clay] Yeah, totally so.
[Brooke Monaghan] Interesting.
Justine Clay (20:22):
That was a great reframe of what I was saying
that you pulled out exactly theperfect point.
So, exactly so.
But what they're then dealingwith is they're having to then
swim upstream against what theyare told is the right way to do
things or what is productive.
And so that's where, like, justhaving that sense of confidence
and autonomy about like no,this is how I do this, which, by
(20:46):
the way, is why so manyneurodivergent people are also
entrepreneurs, because they'reworking their way and they can
work on their own hours, right?
Yeah, to your point, get thethings out of the way that you.
Still it can't be completelyopen, because then it's low
container.
But if there are certain things, and then there's only one
(21:09):
thing I would say you shouldhave a routine about.
Admin, because admin is likekryptonite for most folks I know
with ADHD.
It's like there are some rulesabout anything with ADHD that I
think I've learned, orprinciples let's say.
Make it interesting, make itmeaningful, make it visual, make
(21:31):
it visible and mix it up.
So, for the most part, admindoesn't check any of those boxes
.
The most you can really do islike I'm gonna make it
meaningful in that, like I'mdoing this thing so that my
business runs, I make this money, I can put my kid into whatever
(21:53):
.
It's gotta be connected tosomething else, not just like
admin for the sake of it.
And so that's so difficult forfolks to kind of get over that
hump, I would say Friday morning, no negotiation, or whatever
day it is, that's admin day andyou just get it done because
you're never gonna wanna do itand waiting for that inspiration
(22:13):
to strike.
And then what happens is whenfolks do neglect that and they
don't know where their invoicesare and they haven't invoiced
for the job, and now they startgetting into financial
situations and then that isreally stressful.
So that's the one thing whereI'm a bit more of a hard ass and
just like that's the one thing.
You've just gotta like get overyourself and do the damn thing,
(22:37):
because once you start, for themost part it's okay.
Brooke Monaghan (22:40):
Yeah, and it sounds too like something that
comes up as you say that thatI'm curious about is like, or
that I would add, maybe isgetting curious about how you
like little things that you cando that make doing the boring
stuff more enjoyable.
So one of my favorite hacksthis is a life hack of my life.
(23:06):
I use this all the time.
Things I don't wanna do, I dothem in the bathtub.
[Justine Clay] Amazing.
[Brooke Monaghan] I literally Icannot tell you how many
emails, I love writing salescopy and marketing, like
newsletters in the tub.
And is it risky that I have mylaptop on a bathboard across the
tub?
(23:26):
Yes, it is.
It's a risk that I am willingto take because I do my best
work in tub.
And things like anything I don'twanna do.
I'm like I'm gonna get in thebubble bath.
I don't care what time of dayit is, I'll do it in there.
But also things like just like.
Like sitting in a differentspot in your house that doesn't
feel like you're allowed to sitthere when you're working, you
(23:47):
know.
Like not doing it at your desk.
Or like making yourself like anice drink or something Like
doesn't need to be alcoholic,but like do you make yourself
like a fancy coffee drink everytime that you sit down for your
admin or something.
Or do you do your admin at well.
No, for ADHD people, maybedoing your admin at a coffee
shop is not a good idea, but doyou do your admin, like in a
(24:10):
different place.
That feels like, oh, I'm kindof breaking the rules a little
bit like.
This is a place this doesn'treally count as work, but this
is where I'm gonna get it done,you know.
Justine Clay (24:21):
Yeah, and sometimes putting yourself into
a sort of a novel environmentmight be enough to give it
interest and novelty, becausethat's the other thing is like
the ADHD brain like, likes newthings and it likes novelty and
interest and it hates boringthings, right, which is like we
can all relate to, which is kindof funny how she used the sort
(24:42):
of tantrum child thing, right,like it's just like it's a good
analogy.
Yeah, our brains are sometimesso.
I love that and it's funnybecause that's so personal to
you, because I'm one of thosepeople I'm not a bath person and
I never have been.
So I'm hearing this and I'mjust like, oh my God, I can't
think of anything worse, right.
But when you say the coffeeshop, I'm just like, oh yeah, I
like that idea and actually Ijust what, when I wanna write
(25:03):
something, because I'm in adifferent environment, I can't
really go anywhere.
It's kind of a treat because Ican have my coffee and my cake
or whatever it is.
So I gamify it or at least justmake it more interesting for
yourself.
Brooke Monaghan (25:19):
Yeah, yeah, so, okay.
So, admin, is the one thingthat you would say create some
kind of routine around.
You can get curious about howto make that routine a little
bit more bearable, but it's theone thing maybe to hold yourself
to.
And then what would you sayabout like, how to like, where
this person can start maybe tosort of work out a better system
(25:43):
for themselves, to like atleast feel like they know what
it is that they're doing andthey're doing the right things.
Justine Clay (25:49):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
So I think the first thing Iwould do is I always like to
look big picture at the businessand I would say what area of
the business feels most chaoticto me.
All my process right.
So the person who asked thisquestion.
(26:12):
The things that she was reallyasking for about was how do I
prioritize tasks, how to focuson delivery and accountability.
Those are the three things thatI pulled out of there.
So, with the prioritizing, Iwould say that I'm just looking
at my notes.
Right here We've talked aboutthe reframing of like structure
(26:35):
and productivity a little bit,whereby it's like, instead of
thinking about it being a linearthing or something that just
feels like really restrictiveand uncreative and tight, think
of it more like a framework,Like.
You know those I don't know ifyou were around when you were a
kid, but we used to have inEngland these climbing frames.
(26:55):
They're like a dome.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah, yeah,yeah! [Justine Clay] And then
you can climb on it any whichway, but literally you've got
kids climbing on the insideYou've got people using like a
monkey bar, right.
So the structure is there, butthen how you engage with it can
be multiple different ways,right.
So the first thing I wouldthink about is, like, what are
the areas of my business andthose kind of fall into, like
(27:18):
broadly, a few categories Valuecreation, value delivery,
marketing, sales, finance andadmin?
I'll say finance and admin inone, because, especially with
small businesses, film and aspop, you can push them in
together.
So it sounds to me like for themost especially ADHD folks and
(27:43):
creatives, is the value creationbit, which is like coming up
with the ideas, coming up withthe.
That's like try, stop that fromhappening, like you can't,
right, yeah, that's somethingthat it makes sense where she or
the creative or theentrepreneur should focus on
that stuff.
That's the unique, likeconnecting existing ideas in
(28:04):
newer, novel ways.
You know, all of that goodstuff that comes with divergent
thinking, right.
The value delivery.
Now that's where it's like howdoes this get out into the world
?
How does my framework live inthe world as a service, as a
product?
And I know that she says she'sdone a lot of work on that with
you, you know, identifying whatyour products are.
So then I would say, okay, ifthere's a delivery issue.
(28:29):
And one of the things I'velearned about my ADHD clients
too is like they love systems,they love processes.
It's not like they can't dothat right, but like what's the
way?
If you're visual, could youcome up with like a flow chart
and just be like write down allof the things that either I do
or I want to do or need tohappen?
Where are either they fallingin the gap or is the client
(28:51):
falling in the gap?
What's not working?
Where does it break down?
Is it that like they just hateanswering emails and so then
they get behind?
And then there's the clientcommunication thing, like that's
the problem, or is it that theynever bill the thing in time?
Or they don't have anonboarding process?
That's like tightened up enough.
When you know where the hole is, that you keep falling in, you
(29:16):
can build a process or a systemfor that.
Yeah, the whole thing aboutthat and I know you're a
processes and systems person isyou can create a process like
literally on a piece of paper,you can use a piece of software
or you can outsource it, usuallya combination of all three.
So what are you going to say?
Brooke Monaghan (29:37):
Well, as you were saying that, I was just
like yes, like I always say,like anytime that anyone's like,
oh, things feel so disorganized, like I need to come up with a
better system, I'm like, okay,feeling overwhelmed and feeling
like things are disorganized isa feeling.
Then there's an actual issuethat needs to be solved, and
(30:02):
they're two different things.
If you try to create a systemto make yourself not feel a
certain way, you're not reallygoing to hit the mark because
you're not actually solving it.
You're not actually creating asystem to solve.
You're going to put a balm onthis like emotional thing that
you're finding yourself in bycreating a system without
(30:22):
actually knowing what the systemis for.
So it's like the first thingyou have to do is like identify
what the actual problem is.
Justine Clay (30:28):
Exactly, exactly.
I have a slide in one of mywebinars for business strategies
for ADHD creatives and in thatI say, like a system is a very
specific solution to a veryspecific problem.
So there's not like a playbooksomewhere of the systems you
(30:49):
need to have in your business.
You make them up to resolve aproblem or achieve efficiency in
something you're doing againand again and again and again
and again that you don'tpersonally need to be doing
again and again and again or inall different ways reinventing
the wheel every time.
So you're right, it's just likeyou know, and that's a thing is
(31:11):
a lot of times with you knowsort of folks of ADHD is they do
feel overwhelmed a lot.
So even just that parsing out,I feel overwhelmed.
It's not a system for feelingoverwhelmed.
But let me look what's thething that causes me the most
agita?
You can just look at it andbreak it down into like the
(31:33):
parts of a business which aren'tthat many.
Then there's usually somewherewhere you're like oh, here's
where it keeps going on, becauseI hate doing bookkeeping, and
because I hate doing bookkeeping, I don't know what my numbers
are.
And because I don't know whatmy numbers are, I feel like I
have no value or no worth.
And because I do that, I'mreally shit at sales calls,
(31:54):
right, it could.
Just if I knew what was comingin and going out, I'd feel
pretty proud of myself or I'dknow what I need to do.
But I'd have clarity and itmight.
I don't want to do bigbookkeeping Hallelujah, I
celebrate the decision, but thenfind someone else that can do
it for you.
Right, don't just ignore it,right?
But now we have a very specificproblem or diagnosis I don't
(32:18):
like doing bookkeeping andthat's the cause of all of the
financial distress I'm feelingthat's now bleeding out into all
the other parts of my business.
The solution for that is I needsomeone to do my bookkeeping
and, yes, I need a software, andI probably need someone that
can come in and clean it all upand get it all on an even scale
or whatever right and then itbecomes a very I'm not saying an
(32:42):
easy problem to solve, but avery clear problem to solve.
Brooke Monaghan (32:46):
Right, yeah, totally, yeah, totally.
So for this person, you know,one of the things that she had
said was struggling withprioritization, and so it sounds
like what you're saying is likeokay, so if you so, like, let's
start with prioritization, thenlet's get specific about, like,
(33:07):
is it actually that?
Is it that you are not surewhat any of the tasks are that
need to get done and so there'snothing to prioritize?
Is it that you know what needsto get done but you haven't sat
down and actually decided, like,what are the things that are
most important?
Is it that you know, like, whatis actually happening around
prioritization, or are you justtelling yourself a story that
(33:28):
you're a person who doesn't knowhow to prioritize stuff, or
you're really dropping the ballwith prioritization, because
that would make sense that youwould be telling yourself that
story as somebody who'sneurodivergent and is living in
a you know, in a neurotypicalworld, and it was probably told
that you don't prioritize well,yeah, right, and so, yeah, it's
(33:50):
like parsing that out, likewhere's the thing that you're
telling yourself and then like,what's the actual thing that's
happening in there and how canwe get specific on it?
Then you can come up with asystem and whatever that system
is really.
The only thing that matters isthat you do it, yeah.
Justine Clay (34:05):
Exactly.
And here's the other thing.
This is something I learnedwhen I had babies.
They're just like an enigma.
You don't know what the hellthey need.
If anyone tells me, oh, I knowwhat cry means what I'm just
like I call BS because it's alljust noise to me.
It's like you don't know whatto do.
There's no handbook, right.
(34:26):
And then you figure somethingout and you're like I cracked it
.
And then next week it's likeyeah, and then you have the
second kid and then you thinkokay, I got this, and that's a
completely different alien,right?
Like the first one.
So it's a little bit like thatwith someone who has a
neurodivergent brain is like,stop thinking that if you can
(34:50):
just find the right silverbullet, the right process, the
right this, everything will befine.
This is going to be a grab bag,an ever-shifting landscape, and
that just comes with theterritory of having this
fantastic creative brain.
Like you know, there's a Idon't know which guy it is that,
I think it's Hallowell who saysthat.
Like you know, when he'stalking to kids about ADHD he
(35:12):
talks to, he describes it ashaving a race car brain with
bicycle brakes, a Ferrari brain.
And so if you acknowledge andjust say, like it's always going
to be changing, it's alwaysgoing to be shifting.
I'm going to have to keepmixing it up, so I need a grab
bag of tools and things I cantry.
(35:34):
Then you don't beat yourself upabout like, why do I keep blah,
blah, blah?
My husband often says when heloses his keys.
I'm driving myself crazy.
And I'm like.
Yeah, me too.
A little, you know just.
But you know what I mean.
It's just like that's not kindto yourself.
Yeah, I didn't put them in thebowl that we put there for okay.
(35:59):
Well, that happens sometimes,but 90% of the time they end up
in the bowl now because we putthe bowl there for the keys.
Brooke Monaghan (36:04):
What I'm hearing and what you're saying,
and this is something that Ihave.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes that I have taken out
like a planner or something andthen like, look at this planner,
look at how well I had itfilled out for like three weeks,
and then there's nothing afterthat.
And then I moved to a differentsystem.
I happened to have fallen intoa system that's worked for me
for the past couple of yearswith Asana, but, like, still
there's things that I'm alwaysdipping in and out of, but I
(36:28):
have found that so many peopleneed permission to use something
for a period of time that worksfor them and then, if you stop
using that system -- [JustineClay] You didn't fail.
[Brooke Monaghan] No, and Ialways am like, listen, like you
have a choice.
At that point, you can eitherput your energy into beating
(36:48):
yourself up for the fact thatyou're not sticking with the
system, or you could just usewhatever feels good for you this
week and keep moving.
The goal is not to like figureout a way to be a perfectly
productive person.
We've all thought that was thegoal because of the systems that
we've lived in, the fact thatwe've been programmed to think
that that is our job as humanbeings, and also I know the
(37:10):
person who wrote in thisquestion and I know that that's
not actually what you value.
So it's like, how do you kindof put those values into action
and start to put your energytoward just making forward
progress in whatever way worksfor you that day, and less
energy into how do I make myselfwork in a way that I've seen
(37:33):
other people working that I'vetold myself was the right way to
do it?
Justine Clay (37:37):
Agreed.
You know, it wasn't until I metmy husband almost 40, and I was
reading a book.
And I was just like, and I readand read, and read.
I love reading.
And I was just like I hate thisbook, I can't wait till I'm
finished with it.
And he was like, why don't youjust stop reading it?
And I'm like I was literally Ithought I was not allowed to not
(38:00):
finish a book.
Now I just I love the showFriday Night Lights.
I had the book.
I didn't get very far throughthe first time.
The second time I was stuckwith it.
I'm probably 40 pages andthere's a big book, less 20
pages from the end.
I just put it away again.
I'm like I can't, I can'tfinish it, I'm just done.
(38:21):
Like like that's progress, butto that point.
I think sometimes, a lot oftimes, these answers are
unsatisfying to someone who'sjust like yes, I know but I need
something.
So I want to take an idea, asuggestion, and it's a concept
from Tiago Forte and it's thebuilding of a second brain right
(38:45):
.
So if we think about our brain,our brain we use as a storage
unit, as a calendar, as aproblem solving machine, as all
kinds of things, beautiful kindsof things that it's not
supposed to be used for.
Our brain is basicallysomething that makes guesses
(39:06):
what's going to happen, what allwe need to do in response to
that thing.
It's a predictor, a guesser,and it's a problem solving
machine.
That's it.
Now, if you think about someonewho has less than optimal
executive functioning and that'sat the conductor at the front,
there's just like a big right,You'll be a bit louder and like
(39:28):
no, you'll never be quite overhere.
And yes, trumpets really loud,please.
That guy's out to lunch, he'sdrunk, right.
So let's say, oh my God, Icompletely lost my train.
We can let the brain do its thing, which is
come up with ideas, connectthings in novel ways.
Where could that stuff liveoutside of your brain?
(39:53):
So what that looks like for meand the tool you use will be
different.
I have what I call a dashboard,a leadership dashboard in
Notion.
It was initially created byTara McMullin of Explore what
Works.
I love it.
You can make it your own, but init I have my three commitments.
I do one for each year, mycommitments for the year and
(40:17):
what that looks like in terms ofstrategic priorities.
So commitments are how am Igoing to show up?
What am I going to prioritizein my life?
Not goals.
So I'm going to commit tohaving deeper relationships,
experiences over stuff,community building.
Let's say those are mycommitments.
(40:38):
And then my strategicpriorities and I do it within
the context of business, butmight be I'm going to give more
talks, I'm going to do morein-person connecting with folks
and blah, blah, blah.
Right, so these are mypriorities.
Then you can have your valuesin there.
So the things that are theseguiding principles.
So, if you think of it like as,like a one-pager, where it's
(40:58):
almost like a cheat sheet, allthe things I said mattered and
all the things I said I wantedto focus on.
So then I've got, like, myquarterly goals.
Let's focus a bit less on that.
But then I've got my projects.
I've got my active projects,I've got my projects for next
quarter and I've got my projectsfor the year.
(41:20):
And the reason I like Notion isbecause you can have tiles and
you can put an image in there,so there's a little visual and
then there's a title so I cansee it and you can move them
around.
You can just drag it todifferent places and I have what
am I tracking?
And those are like the thingslike numbers, right, like how
many intro calls did I have.
One of the things that I canconnect with that are gonna tell
(41:42):
me how, what am I doing?
And it's so simple.
It's just a one-pager you can.
And then I've got a spot whereI can put ideas.
So if I have an idea forsomething when I'm out for a
walk, I'm not now like, oh myGod, I have to go build that
program right now.
Right, I'm like it's a goodidea.
Now is not the time for me toflush this out because I said
I'm gonna do this thing.
It's in my projects list.
(42:04):
So it's a way where we can likenot lose the things.
It has to live outside of ourbrain and be on your phone.
It can be here.
You can make it a mix of visualas well as everything else.
And it's this cheat sheet.
And it's like so anytime shesits down she's like what the
fuck am I gonna do today?
She can open up that thing thatshe created when she was
(42:26):
feeling more centered, moreconnected to what she wants to
do, and she's like well, I'vegot any one of five projects I
could work on right now, right,oh, wait a minute.
It's Friday at noon, that'sbookkeeping time, but that'll
just take me an hour.
I don't know how that rolls now.
And any one of these projects,let me pick something.
Brooke Monaghan (42:47):
Yeah, just giving yourself a external thing
that you can look at to remindyourself of, like what you said
was important, yeah, and whatyou said that you were gonna
focus on and what you can do.
And then, but then in thatmoment, giving yourself the
flexibility to choose, and Iwonder if what could be helpful
(43:07):
as like a tangible thing thatthis person might be able to do.
As I'm hearing you say this,Justine, I'm thinking like what
I would wanna do and listen.
I am so overwhelmed right nowand luckily I have a second
brain and my second brain iscalled Asana.
But if I didn't have it, what Iwould be so tempted to do is I
(43:27):
would wanna sit down and I wouldwanna like brain dump every
single thing that felt like itwas knocking around in my brain
and then look at that and belike, okay, what are there like
categories here that I can kindof like organize things into and
then make your own, whatever itis and it doesn't need to be in
Notion, like you could put iton post-its if you wanted to and
like put it on your wall.
(43:48):
[Justine Clay] You could useyour board and just put it on
your wall exactly.
[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah but thenat least it's like it's out of
your brain and you are nothaving to put energy into
worrying that you're gonna misssomething which is only draining
capacity from being able toactually execute on the things.
Justine Clay (44:05):
Exactly.
I always like to think ofexecutive function as like, like
the battery that we see on our,you know, on our computer.
And I say, every time we haveto keep making decisions, every
time we have to create choices,every time we have to remember
to do something, we're likedraining.
Brooke Monaghan (44:20):
Yeah.
Justine Clay (44:21):
Like just faster, and you wanna keep that battery
as like full as possible, right,and be utilized.
So things that matter to you,not on a bunch of stuff that
doesn't matter, which is likeworrying because I feel so
overwhelmed.
Right, that's not - not to sayit doesn't matter, but just it's
a big output functioning right,that could be negated,
(44:45):
potentially.
Brooke Monaghan (44:46):
Justine, is there anything that, like we
have not chatted about inresponse to this question, that
you feel like is important forus to speak to?
Justine Clay (44:54):
[Justine Clay] The accountability piece, that's
kind of like closing the loop onthis stuff, right, Because we
have the feelings and you and Iwere in a coaching group
together for a long time when wehave a problem in our business
a legit problem, but it'susually layered with a whole
bunch of emotions that come fromus, some of this, some
(45:17):
background, right.
And then when you have otherpeople around you, they say,
well, what I'm hearing is aconflation of these two things,
or remember that thing that youdid here, or I had that
experience and like, this is howI did this, and then you just
say, oh okay, no big deal, right, and then you go away and you
do it and you're done, right, Ithink accountability is really
(45:38):
great, and accountability canlook like lots of different ways
right, it could be a coach, itcould be a group, or it could be
a few friends that also aresmall business owners I did that
for years where it's like youmeet every like, whatever once a
week in the morning and youjust have someone.
And there are a few simplequestions what are the three
(45:59):
things you're working on rightnow?
Or what's the one thing you'reworking on right now.
What's the thing that you'restruggling with?
What support do you need?
Getting it out of your head isso amazing.
So to build that sort offeedback loop with a few trusted
people or one trusted person orwhatever, is amazing.
(46:19):
The other thing is you can dobody doubling.
That's something that is anADHD thing and you can just look
up body doubling and you caneither create your own, but also
there are places that just hostthem so you can pay a little
bit like a coworking space.
You show up, it's a Zoom room.
Sometimes you talk, sometimesyou don't.
It's for a certain amount oftime.
Brooke Monaghan (46:41):
We do them twice a month in Fruition for
free.
So join fruition.
com, everybody come and join us.
We have a Friday in thebeginning of the month and a
Monday at the end of the month,and it's totally silent and we
block 90 minutes and you can putin the chat what it is that you
want to accomplish during thattime and nothing is recorded.
You don't even need to be onvideo.
(47:02):
And when I tell you that I getso much done during that time,
I'm like why haven't I beendoing this the whole time?
Justine Clay (47:09):
Yes, so there you go.
So that's the final piece toher question.
I think we spoke aboutprioritization, we spoke about
delivery and we spoke aboutaccountability.
Brooke Monaghan (47:18):
Yeah, amazing.
[Justine Clay] I hope thathelps her [Brooke Monaghan]
Thank you.
Justine, yeah, and I alsounderstand the.
It can be so frustrating whenyou just want an answer, but,
truly, when you are trying tofind something that works for
you, when you're realizing thatyou don't do things in a typical
(47:39):
way, forcing yourself into ananswer is the opposite of the
actual answer, which is to getcurious about your own
experience and what actuallyworks for you.
Yeah, yeah, but thank you forall of these tips.
This has been a greatconversation.
I know so many people are goingto need this and I really
(48:01):
enjoyed connecting with you onthis.
Justine Clay (48:03):
Thank you.
Thanks for inviting me to chatwith you.
I loved it.
[Brooke Monaghan] Of course.
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