October 31, 2023 • 25 mins
Growing your business will almost definitely require you to grow your team. Many online business owners default to hiring multiple independent contractors in specialized roles to meet their needs, but that's not always the best choice. There are important differences between independent contractors and employees that you should be aware of before growing your team.
In this episode founder of Hire Breakthrough, Kimone Napier (she/her), joins the show to answer our questions about how to decide who to hire and how to find the right person for the job.
Connect with Kimone:
Website: https://hirebreakthrough.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simplykimone
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brooke Monaghan (00:09):
Welcome back to another episode of Make your
Business Work For You.
Today's episode is a Q&A yes,I'm leaving that in.
It's a Q&A episode with myfriend and colleague, Kimone
Napier.
You heard Kimone in our lastQ&A episode about building a
business with a new baby at home.
(00:29):
After I got Kimone's wisdom onthat, I asked her to stick
around to answer some questionsabout hiring, because Kimone
actually runs a recruitmentagency and with my leadership
coaching clients,I have witnessed so much
confusion around when should youhire an independent contractor,
when should you bring in anemployee?
How do you find the rightperson for the role.
(00:50):
I put some of those questionstogether and had Kimone answer
them today.
Here's the thing.
Maybe you're thinking abouthiring.
This is going to be a reallyimportant episode for you.
Maybe you're not.
If you're a service providerand you yourself are an
independent contractor, Iactually think this is a really
important episode for you tolisten to, because what I have
(01:10):
found is that many independentcontractors are not actually
aware of what their clients canor cannot actually ask of them,
what their rights are in thosekinds of relationships.
I also think that this couldinform your conversations with
your potential clients about whyyou as an independent
(01:31):
contractor versus an employee,because sometimes it makes sense
to bring on someone in a veryspecialized role versus an
employee.
This is just important contextthat I think all of us who are
in small business should beaware of.
Before we get into the episode.
A couple of things I want tofill you in on.
(01:51):
The first thing is that doorsto Fruition Growth Network are
officially open.
If you go to joinf ruition.
com, you can create your freeaccount.
We have a free tier of themembership and we also have paid
tiers of the membership.
The Tend tier, which is usuallypaid, is free for the month of
November.
This includes our guestfacilitated workshops.
It includes access to trainingcamp, which is my signature
(02:14):
course.
All you've got to do is just goand set up a free account and
it's just automatically allgoing to be in there for you for
the month of November.
It's pretty easy.
Just joinf ruition.
com.
Once you're in there, you canalso register for any of the
live events that you'd like toattend.
In November we have two freeco-workings happening.
We also have a networking eventfor people who hate networking.
(02:36):
We have a guest workshop withTristan Katz on creating
meaningful and effective contentfor your business happening at
the end of the month.
That first co-working is onFriday, November 3rd.
So join fruition.
com set up that free account,you can register for that and
come and join us.
Finally, if you have beenenjoying the show and you have
not yet left a rating and areview, those make a huge
(02:58):
difference to me and the podcast.
This podcast is a big part ofwhat is going to keep Fruition
Growth Network going.
One way that you can support meis to go to Apple Podcasts and
leave a rating and a review forthe show.
Also, sending any of theseepisodes to someone who you know
could benefit from hearing themis a big help as well.
All right, enjoy today'sepisode and I hope to see you at
(03:20):
our co-working on Friday.
Let's start with navigatingwhether or not you should be
hiring independent contractorsor employees.
Kimone Napier (03:40):
Yeah, sure.
So typically for those whodon't are not aware, I have an
HR background and the businessthat I started was a recruitment
business.
That was a part of HR that Ialways truly love.
We help business owners,startup companies to actually
find and retain their talent.
These are questions that I getall the time.
I would say if somebody istrying to figure out whether
(04:03):
they should go employee versuscontractor, it depends on things
like your revenue and stufflike that.
It depends on the duties thatyou want the person to do.
In terms of revenue.
Let's say you just hit yourfirst six figures.
Your default might be to hire acontractor and that's okay, but
(04:24):
six figures is from $100,000all the way up to $999,000.
Brooke Monaghan (04:31):
Thank you for clarifying.
Kimone Napier (04:33):
Yeah, when I hear people talk about six triggers,
I'm like, okay, let's get intothe numbers, because a hundred
thousand dollar business and anine hundred thousand dollars
business is very, very different.
Yes, so if you're at thebeginning stages of that, hiring
a contractor is okay because ofcourse you're, you are probably
not like in the financial placeto be able to afford
(04:53):
necessarily an employee, maybelike a part time one, but not
like a full time employee.
When you're starting to climbto like, let's say, like mid
range, like 250k, 500k aroundthere, you want to start to
think about hiring an employeebecause the needs of your
business is going to change.
That's what people don'tunderstand.
(05:14):
There's going to come a timewhere you're going to need
somebody fully dedicated to yourbusiness, and when I say fully
dedicated, I mean they'reworking specifically on your
business.
The problem that I see withcontractors for a lot of people
is typically contractors haveother clients, so there's always
this push and pull.
So like, for example, maybe theway your business is set up,
(05:37):
you need launches, you hire anindependent contractor, they
help you with these launches,but they also have other clients
that they're launching for.
So those clients launches aregoing on right, there's this
push and pull energy, like youmay feel like they're not
showing up the way they need toshow up for you, and that's just
what it is when it's anindependent contractor.
(05:58):
Now, what some people do theymight go through some type of
agency and hire a contractor butat the same time, that's not
guaranteed because that personcould leave that agency at any
time and then you'll be replacedand starting for the ground up
and you don't have any ownershipof this person.
And that's what people need tounderstand is that you don't.
You're not entitled to thisperson.
(06:20):
You signed a contract with theagency and that's really more so
about it.
So, when you're in the midrange, start to consider to hire
an employee because of thededication that you're going to
need and the whole nine yards.
And then you know, with the IRSstandard, with contractor
versus employee, a contract isvery specific.
Typically, typically, whatyou're seeing a contractor is
(06:42):
like based on project.
So if we based on the IRSguidelines, if the work the
person is doing is contributingto, like, the daily operations
of the business, technicallythat's considered an employee
under IRS guidelines.
And so a lot of people don'tnecessarily realize that, but
these are the kind of thingsthat you need to keep in mind.
(07:03):
With that, also with thecontractor, you are not supposed
to have any control over theirwork hours.
So it's more so like this justneeds to get done, but like
saying like, okay, you need tobe available Monday to Friday,
nine to five, or like 11 to fiveor whatever it is that's
considered an employee.
So the law is very, veryspecific.
(07:25):
And if you're getting to a placewhere you're like, okay, I need
more specialized help, I needmore dedication, that's when you
want to consider hiring anemployee, because there's also
tax benefits too with employeeand I think people don't realize
that, there are benefits.
So if you're hiring an employeelike, for example, I know here
in New York, there's like grantsthat you can get for for having
(07:47):
an employee and stuff like that.
So there's, there's all thosethose things.
So the legalities is one part,but in terms of like
understanding your need, youhave to really understand where
your business is going.
Because if you keep saying likeI have people say it all the
time I want seven figures, butyou're not operating in the
space to be able to get theseven figures.
(08:07):
Like and, for example, like thebiggest contractor, most common
contractor role, I see, is thevirtual assistant.
And I tell people all the timelike, yes, they have a specific
part of a business if you'relike online business.
But this is not the end allsolution when it comes to hiring
, and this is where people getso frustrated because they're
like I hired a virtual assistant, they're not doing what I need
(08:30):
them to do and I'm like whatyou're trying to do is hire a
number of people into one roleand that's not the way that this
works.
Anything I see virtualassistants promising like I
could do office, I could domarketing, I could do all these
things, I guarantee you.
I always tell people unicornsdon't exist.
There's going to be one specificarea that this person is going
(08:51):
to show up better than otherareas, or eventually, what's
going to happen?
They're going to get burnt out.
That's when I see a lot ofbusiness owners are scared to
hire.
So sometimes a virtualassistant is not your answer.
They have a very special placeon a team, but as you're
continuing to make more money,taking more clientele, you're up
(09:12):
leveling and scaling.
Your team is going to berequired to look different
Because you, as the leader inyour business, has to show up
different.
Because a six-figure businessand I'm talking low six figures
to high six figures, sevenfigures, even eight figures
looks totally different in termsof team and then what I
(09:33):
normally see people who rely onthe virtual assistants and stuff
like that then they have issueswith client retention, or
people are not hearing back fromthem, or you as the leader,
you're starting to have toimplement more rather than
you're out there selling andgetting visible and things like
that.
So you have to consider all ofthis when you're considering to
(09:55):
hire even a contractor or anemployee.
Brooke Monaghan (09:59):
Yeah, one of the things that's coming to mind
something that I've definitelyseen come up with clients of
mine that I've worked with atthat more mid six-figure range
too is they have a very specificneed and are trying to find the
right independent contractor tofit into that role, but don't
realize that as an independentcontractor, they're going to
(10:21):
come to you and say this is whatI do and this is how it works,
and it's like you were settingyourself up for a very difficult
search.
If you are trying to find aperson who's going to come to
you and say this is exactly whatI do and it's going to match
exactly what you need, versuswith an employee, it's like job
(10:42):
description here's how I'm goingto train you to do it, here's
when you're going to beavailable.
You're creating the role versusthem creating the role and then
wondering why it's not reallyworking out the way that you
need it to work out.
Kimone Napier (10:55):
Exactly.
I think people also default toit because it's easy.
Yes, in their mind they're like, well, I'm not required to pay
this person.
This is the conversations thatpeople think and they have I'm
not required to pay this person.
If I need another one, I couldget rid of this person.
This is how I've heard peoplethink, but I always say to them
(11:16):
I'm like, whether it's anemployee or contractor, every
time you have to do it, you'respending money.
Yeah, and that's what peopledon't realize.
And half the time, when we lookat the numbers, I'm like you
could have hired an employee tobegin with.
And save yourself pain andsuffering.
Brooke Monaghan (11:31):
Yeah, and this is OK.
I have now said this twice onthis podcast, so apparently I
feel strongly about it.
It's like the things that peopleare willing to get help with or
spend money on and then thethings that they're not blow me
away.
So if you're willing to spendthousands and thousands of
dollars to be in some high-endmastermind but you are not
willing to pay a CPA or someoneto help you figure out how to
(11:55):
legally have employees like,you've got to get your
priorities in order, becausethat is like some weird online
business bizarro narrative thathas worked its way into our
brains where we think that butit's going to be so expensive to
go to a lawyer and it's goingto be so expensive to go to an
accountant and that's going tobe so hard.
So I'm going to do it this wayit's not as expensive as some of
(12:17):
the other stuff that you'respending money on and also have
the peace of mind that you'redoing it the right way, because
the other thing that I mean thisis something that you and I
talked about when I interviewedyou for my other podcast is that
if you have a quote independentcontractor who is operating as
(12:39):
an independent contractor, butyou're actually legally treating
them as an employee.
It does not matter if you havenot been calling them an
employee that whole time or ifyou didn't set things up that
way.
It's like you're legallyobligated now and now you might
end up in a situation whereyou've got some penalties or
shit that you have to deal withthat you could have just avoided
if you just Got someone whoknows what they're doing to help
(13:03):
you get your ducks in a row.
It's not gonna be that bad.
Kimone Napier (13:07):
Yeah, it's not exactly.
And your comment about themastermind is so spot-on because
what I always tell people like,yes, everybody does need
coaching at some point.
But I always tell people you gointo the high masterminds and
then what they're teaching youto do you have to remember, you
have to pay the mastermind andthen you have to Find the money
to implement whatever it isthey're telling you to do.
(13:28):
So if you go into themastermind, they're telling you
to hire employees.
Well, if you just paid Fivefigures, high five figures, even
six figures for this mastermindand you have to figure out the
money to do all this other stuff, it's kind of like you just got
yourself into a situation whenwhat you could have done is Hire
(13:49):
an expert, hire an employee toactually help you
specifically with this.
I always tell people therecomes a time where you have to
hire more specialized helpversus coaching.
Like it's two different.
It's two completely differentthings and I think people often
confuse the two.
And then they're stressed, andI'm like you're stressed because
(14:10):
what you need to do is hireemployees.
You need hands, you need peopleto be able to implement the
stuff that you want to implementand you know, if you're going
into mastermind and you'repaying them all this money and
all they're telling you to do ishire virtual assistant.
I Mean I would, I would beremiss if I didn't say you need
(14:31):
to really look at thisinvestment, because I can tell
you people who are at themillion dollar mark eight
figures, nine figures they haveteams, yeah, they have people
working to help them, because ifthey don't, you can't take a
vacation, you can't do any ofthat stuff, and that is that
really the kind of business orlife that you envision for
(14:52):
yourself?
So those are, these arequestions you should be asking
yourself.
Brooke Monaghan (14:56):
Yeah, and if you're looking at hiring, if
you're, if you are feeling thepressure of needing to hire,
probably the reason for that isbecause you are feeling like you
need help with implementation,not ideation or strategizing.
And so if you need help withimplementation, no amount of I'm
(15:16):
gonna tell you what to do orcoach you through
problem-solving around things isreally gonna stop like you're
still gonna need help with theimplementation.
You're still gonna have to turnaround and do it.
So [Kimone Napier] exactly andas a coach, I recognize I care,
I love coaching, I think thatcoaching can be great for a
specific type of person, butsometimes it just gets out of
(15:37):
hand where I'm just like I donot understand.
I have cannot tell you thenumber of people who I'm like
you need to go for to a lawyerfor that, and they're like I,
like I have to go to a lawyer,it's gonna be so expensive, and
I'm like let's talk about thisprogram that you just joined for
like five thousand dollars,like what, what?
I don't get it.
Anyways, okay, now I'm gettingjudgmental.
(16:00):
So let's say that somebody hasthen decided like okay, I'm
gonna hire an employee.
Or they now know the route thatthey want to go.
Even if they do want to hirelike an independent contractor,
they're clear on the route thatthey want to go.
What are some of the firstthings that people should
consider or do to try to findthe person who's like the right
(16:21):
fit in terms of they canactually perform the role, but
also like they're a good fit towork with you.
How should people get startedwith that?
Kimone Napier (16:29):
So the first thing is that when you're
deciding, like okay, I need tohire somebody, the first thing
is establish your hiring budget.
Figure out, like okay, how muchis it that you can afford to
pay somebody.
And if you realize, like okay,I don't have enough to afford to
pay somebody, it's like I tellpeople approach it like a cash
injection, like if you wait tothe moment that you really need
(16:51):
somebody, it becomes harder.
But if you plan ahead, you canstart to set aside the reserves,
just like you do.
if do profit first, you setaside reserve for taxes and
stuff like that.
Approach hiring just like that,and have like an account where
it's solely for that for team,because it makes it so much
easier for you.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is like okay,you're like, okay, this is the
(17:12):
person that I need.
Now I need to figure out who itis that, like I want to hire.
You need to create like almostlike, an avatar for this person.
Now, when I say avatar, I meanlike.
I don't mean like, okay, thisperson needs to look a certain
way or anything like that.
What I mean is what's the skillset that they need to have?
Like the experience, theeducation necessary, necessary.
(17:32):
What is it that you want themto believe about your company?
Like, are they in alignmentwith your company mission?
Where is it that they want togo, maybe in the next three or
five years, and is that inalignment where you want to go
with your company as well?
So you want to have thisprofile so it makes it easier
(17:53):
for you to pick out the idealtalent for the role.
And usually people don't do this, they skip this part.
But it really does honestlyhelp, because if you're also in
a situation where you start totry to find the talent and
you're getting theseapplications, it becomes very
overwhelming, especially if youdon't have somebody dedicated in
(18:13):
your business to actually likemanage this process for you.
You're going to have to do ityourself as the leader, and it
takes time.
Like I always tell people likeit takes like literally like 68
hours for like from start tofinish, to actually find the
talent, screen them, interviewthem, all that kind of stuff.
It requires a lot of time.
(18:35):
So if you don't have a lot oftime, you want to make sure you
do some of these steps to makeit easier for you in the process
and to make an informed and anot biased decision, because
sometimes I see a lot ofbusiness owners.
They hire people that are likethem, and usually you don't need
somebody who's like you.
You need somebody who isopposite of you, somebody that
(18:57):
their strengths are yourweaknesses.
To balance the business out iswhat you truly need.
So you want to make sure youhave all that stuff like it's
almost like a rubric or ascorecard for yourself as you're
screening these applicationsand stuff like that and then you
know the kind of questions thatyou need to ask in order for
you to make an informed decision.
(19:18):
As to like, will this person beable to help me?
Because you know, if you guyshave the same you like the same
color and the same food, thatdoesn't mean this person is
going to be able to operate inyour business, but you'd be
surprised at the way people getinto jobs and the way they get
hired.
This is the way that youshouldn't do it, but if you
(19:38):
follow these three things thatI'm talking about, it makes it
easier for you to actually pullout the talent that you need to
really help take your businessto the next level.
So that's how I would recommendeveryone approach it when it
comes to hiring and findingquality talent.
Brooke Monaghan (19:55):
Yeah, I love that.
I love how like juststraightforward you are Ki mone.
One of the things that I usedto do a lot when I was hiring
people in other roles and likedoing interviews is I would if
there was ever any kind ofanxiety around like, but what if
we get the wrong person again?
Because, especially in roleswhere that I had, where, like
(20:17):
there was turnover with acertain position.
Kimone Napier (20:20):
[Brooke Monaghan] Well, what
Brooke Monaghan (20:21):
if we get the wrong person?
Whenever there's anxiety aroundthat, I would always try to
talk to people on the team aboutlike, what would it look like
for this to go wrong?
Like, what are you worriedabout happening?
What is an example of not theright fit?
What behavior specifically wasnot good and didn't work?
What specific behavior are youworried about?
(20:41):
So then, that way we could likethen be like okay, well, this is
how we want people to handle itinstead, and then we could
create interview questionsaround that, or like case
studies even, or examplequestions when it's like okay,
here's an example of a thingthat happens in the role.
Tell me how you would approachthat, and you can kind of head
that off at the pass, because Ifind that it's one of the things
(21:02):
that holds people back fromhiring the right person for the
job, versus just someonerecommended this person and so I
just hired this random VA andnow I'm just having them do this
stuff because so and so saidthey were great.
One of the things that holdspeople back from going out and
doing an intentional search islike they're just worried about
(21:22):
putting so much effort into itand then they get the wrong
person, and so it's like, ifyou're worried about that, get
specific about what the concernsare and ask questions that
allow you to understand whetheror not that person is going to
approach things in a way thatyou would want them to approach
it.
I've even had situations inpast jobs where, like, we would
(21:44):
give specific case studies kindof like ahead of time, like this
is a situation that we're goingto ask you about.
We want you to take a littlebit of time to think about like
how you would approach this toget like their thought through,
considered response and not justtry to like catch people and
like actually get to know howthey think about things.
So yeah, just throwing that inthere for additional thoughts.
Kimone Napier (22:07):
I think the problem is people don't, they
don't estimate the amount oftime this is going to take, and
so what they do is like I'mgoing to throw up a job
description and find somebody,and that's the default.
That's why the hopes and dreamsthat you have when it comes to
your team are not being met.
Like that's where a lot ofpeople get frustrated with
hiring and so forth, and I thinkit's also a reason why people
(22:28):
default to the contractor thingis because they don't want to
spend the time.
Like business owners tend todefault straight to sales and
marketing.
But as your business grows,things like financials, legal,
HR, recruitment all that stuffis going to be very important
(22:51):
because you need those aspectsas you continue to grow.
It's like you know it's more.
It's like more.
It's like no reward withoutrisk.
And as you continue to makemore money, there's more
inherent risk, right, there'sother laws you have to follow,
Like you might get audited bythe IRS, like there's all these
things that comes intoperspective, and so you need to
be prepared to handle a lot ofthose things.
(23:13):
So, for example, like when youstart to hire, you need to be
prepared like how am I going totrain this person?
How am I going to likeacclimate them into the team and
how this team works, and stufflike that.
So those are the kind of thingsyou need to think about before
you even start hiring, becauseit makes the process a little
bit more seamless, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (23:33):
Thank you, Kimone.
[Kimone Napier] Of course.
[Brooke Monaghan] This was sofun.
I appreciate your wisdom somuch.
Welcome back to another episode of Make your
Business Work For You.
Today's episode is a Q&A yes,I'm leaving that in.
It's a Q&A episode with myfriend and colleague, Kimone
Napier.
You heard Kimone in our lastQ&A episode about building a
business with a new baby at home.
(00:29):
After I got Kimone's wisdom onthat, I asked her to stick
around to answer some questionsabout hiring, because Kimone
actually runs a recruitmentagency and with my leadership
coaching clients,I have witnessed so much
confusion around when should youhire an independent contractor,
when should you bring in anemployee?
How do you find the rightperson for the role.
(00:50):
I put some of those questionstogether and had Kimone answer
them today.
Here's the thing.
Maybe you're thinking abouthiring.
This is going to be a reallyimportant episode for you.
Maybe you're not.
If you're a service providerand you yourself are an
independent contractor, Iactually think this is a really
important episode for you tolisten to, because what I have
(01:10):
found is that many independentcontractors are not actually
aware of what their clients canor cannot actually ask of them,
what their rights are in thosekinds of relationships.
I also think that this couldinform your conversations with
your potential clients about whyyou as an independent
(01:31):
contractor versus an employee,because sometimes it makes sense
to bring on someone in a veryspecialized role versus an
employee.
This is just important contextthat I think all of us who are
in small business should beaware of.
Before we get into the episode.
A couple of things I want tofill you in on.
(01:51):
The first thing is that doorsto Fruition Growth Network are
officially open.
If you go to joinf ruition.
com, you can create your freeaccount.
We have a free tier of themembership and we also have paid
tiers of the membership.
The Tend tier, which is usuallypaid, is free for the month of
November.
This includes our guestfacilitated workshops.
It includes access to trainingcamp, which is my signature
(02:14):
course.
All you've got to do is just goand set up a free account and
it's just automatically allgoing to be in there for you for
the month of November.
It's pretty easy.
Just joinf ruition.
com.
Once you're in there, you canalso register for any of the
live events that you'd like toattend.
In November we have two freeco-workings happening.
We also have a networking eventfor people who hate networking.
(02:36):
We have a guest workshop withTristan Katz on creating
meaningful and effective contentfor your business happening at
the end of the month.
That first co-working is onFriday, November 3rd.
So join fruition.
com set up that free account,you can register for that and
come and join us.
Finally, if you have beenenjoying the show and you have
not yet left a rating and areview, those make a huge
(02:58):
difference to me and the podcast.
This podcast is a big part ofwhat is going to keep Fruition
Growth Network going.
One way that you can support meis to go to Apple Podcasts and
leave a rating and a review forthe show.
Also, sending any of theseepisodes to someone who you know
could benefit from hearing themis a big help as well.
All right, enjoy today'sepisode and I hope to see you at
(03:20):
our co-working on Friday.
Let's start with navigatingwhether or not you should be
hiring independent contractorsor employees.
Kimone Napier (03:40):
Yeah, sure.
So typically for those whodon't are not aware, I have an
HR background and the businessthat I started was a recruitment
business.
That was a part of HR that Ialways truly love.
We help business owners,startup companies to actually
find and retain their talent.
These are questions that I getall the time.
I would say if somebody istrying to figure out whether
(04:03):
they should go employee versuscontractor, it depends on things
like your revenue and stufflike that.
It depends on the duties thatyou want the person to do.
In terms of revenue.
Let's say you just hit yourfirst six figures.
Your default might be to hire acontractor and that's okay, but
(04:24):
six figures is from $100,000all the way up to $999,000.
Brooke Monaghan (04:31):
Thank you for clarifying.
Kimone Napier (04:33):
Yeah, when I hear people talk about six triggers,
I'm like, okay, let's get intothe numbers, because a hundred
thousand dollar business and anine hundred thousand dollars
business is very, very different.
Yes, so if you're at thebeginning stages of that, hiring
a contractor is okay because ofcourse you're, you are probably
not like in the financial placeto be able to afford
(04:53):
necessarily an employee, maybelike a part time one, but not
like a full time employee.
When you're starting to climbto like, let's say, like mid
range, like 250k, 500k aroundthere, you want to start to
think about hiring an employeebecause the needs of your
business is going to change.
That's what people don'tunderstand.
(05:14):
There's going to come a timewhere you're going to need
somebody fully dedicated to yourbusiness, and when I say fully
dedicated, I mean they'reworking specifically on your
business.
The problem that I see withcontractors for a lot of people
is typically contractors haveother clients, so there's always
this push and pull.
So like, for example, maybe theway your business is set up,
(05:37):
you need launches, you hire anindependent contractor, they
help you with these launches,but they also have other clients
that they're launching for.
So those clients launches aregoing on right, there's this
push and pull energy, like youmay feel like they're not
showing up the way they need toshow up for you, and that's just
what it is when it's anindependent contractor.
(05:58):
Now, what some people do theymight go through some type of
agency and hire a contractor butat the same time, that's not
guaranteed because that personcould leave that agency at any
time and then you'll be replacedand starting for the ground up
and you don't have any ownershipof this person.
And that's what people need tounderstand is that you don't.
You're not entitled to thisperson.
(06:20):
You signed a contract with theagency and that's really more so
about it.
So, when you're in the midrange, start to consider to hire
an employee because of thededication that you're going to
need and the whole nine yards.
And then you know, with the IRSstandard, with contractor
versus employee, a contract isvery specific.
Typically, typically, whatyou're seeing a contractor is
(06:42):
like based on project.
So if we based on the IRSguidelines, if the work the
person is doing is contributingto, like, the daily operations
of the business, technicallythat's considered an employee
under IRS guidelines.
And so a lot of people don'tnecessarily realize that, but
these are the kind of thingsthat you need to keep in mind.
(07:03):
With that, also with thecontractor, you are not supposed
to have any control over theirwork hours.
So it's more so like this justneeds to get done, but like
saying like, okay, you need tobe available Monday to Friday,
nine to five, or like 11 to fiveor whatever it is that's
considered an employee.
So the law is very, veryspecific.
(07:25):
And if you're getting to a placewhere you're like, okay, I need
more specialized help, I needmore dedication, that's when you
want to consider hiring anemployee, because there's also
tax benefits too with employeeand I think people don't realize
that, there are benefits.
So if you're hiring an employeelike, for example, I know here
in New York, there's like grantsthat you can get for for having
(07:47):
an employee and stuff like that.
So there's, there's all thosethose things.
So the legalities is one part,but in terms of like
understanding your need, youhave to really understand where
your business is going.
Because if you keep saying likeI have people say it all the
time I want seven figures, butyou're not operating in the
space to be able to get theseven figures.
(08:07):
Like and, for example, like thebiggest contractor, most common
contractor role, I see, is thevirtual assistant.
And I tell people all the timelike, yes, they have a specific
part of a business if you'relike online business.
But this is not the end allsolution when it comes to hiring
, and this is where people getso frustrated because they're
like I hired a virtual assistant, they're not doing what I need
(08:30):
them to do and I'm like whatyou're trying to do is hire a
number of people into one roleand that's not the way that this
works.
Anything I see virtualassistants promising like I
could do office, I could domarketing, I could do all these
things, I guarantee you.
I always tell people unicornsdon't exist.
There's going to be one specificarea that this person is going
(08:51):
to show up better than otherareas, or eventually, what's
going to happen?
They're going to get burnt out.
That's when I see a lot ofbusiness owners are scared to
hire.
So sometimes a virtualassistant is not your answer.
They have a very special placeon a team, but as you're
continuing to make more money,taking more clientele, you're up
(09:12):
leveling and scaling.
Your team is going to berequired to look different
Because you, as the leader inyour business, has to show up
different.
Because a six-figure businessand I'm talking low six figures
to high six figures, sevenfigures, even eight figures
looks totally different in termsof team and then what I
(09:33):
normally see people who rely onthe virtual assistants and stuff
like that then they have issueswith client retention, or
people are not hearing back fromthem, or you as the leader,
you're starting to have toimplement more rather than
you're out there selling andgetting visible and things like
that.
So you have to consider all ofthis when you're considering to
(09:55):
hire even a contractor or anemployee.
Brooke Monaghan (09:59):
Yeah, one of the things that's coming to mind
something that I've definitelyseen come up with clients of
mine that I've worked with atthat more mid six-figure range
too is they have a very specificneed and are trying to find the
right independent contractor tofit into that role, but don't
realize that as an independentcontractor, they're going to
(10:21):
come to you and say this is whatI do and this is how it works,
and it's like you were settingyourself up for a very difficult
search.
If you are trying to find aperson who's going to come to
you and say this is exactly whatI do and it's going to match
exactly what you need, versuswith an employee, it's like job
(10:42):
description here's how I'm goingto train you to do it, here's
when you're going to beavailable.
You're creating the role versusthem creating the role and then
wondering why it's not reallyworking out the way that you
need it to work out.
Kimone Napier (10:55):
Exactly.
I think people also default toit because it's easy.
Yes, in their mind they're like, well, I'm not required to pay
this person.
This is the conversations thatpeople think and they have I'm
not required to pay this person.
If I need another one, I couldget rid of this person.
This is how I've heard peoplethink, but I always say to them
(11:16):
I'm like, whether it's anemployee or contractor, every
time you have to do it, you'respending money.
Yeah, and that's what peopledon't realize.
And half the time, when we lookat the numbers, I'm like you
could have hired an employee tobegin with.
And save yourself pain andsuffering.
Brooke Monaghan (11:31):
Yeah, and this is OK.
I have now said this twice onthis podcast, so apparently I
feel strongly about it.
It's like the things that peopleare willing to get help with or
spend money on and then thethings that they're not blow me
away.
So if you're willing to spendthousands and thousands of
dollars to be in some high-endmastermind but you are not
willing to pay a CPA or someoneto help you figure out how to
(11:55):
legally have employees like,you've got to get your
priorities in order, becausethat is like some weird online
business bizarro narrative thathas worked its way into our
brains where we think that butit's going to be so expensive to
go to a lawyer and it's goingto be so expensive to go to an
accountant and that's going tobe so hard.
So I'm going to do it this wayit's not as expensive as some of
(12:17):
the other stuff that you'respending money on and also have
the peace of mind that you'redoing it the right way, because
the other thing that I mean thisis something that you and I
talked about when I interviewedyou for my other podcast is that
if you have a quote independentcontractor who is operating as
(12:39):
an independent contractor, butyou're actually legally treating
them as an employee.
It does not matter if you havenot been calling them an
employee that whole time or ifyou didn't set things up that
way.
It's like you're legallyobligated now and now you might
end up in a situation whereyou've got some penalties or
shit that you have to deal withthat you could have just avoided
if you just Got someone whoknows what they're doing to help
(13:03):
you get your ducks in a row.
It's not gonna be that bad.
Kimone Napier (13:07):
Yeah, it's not exactly.
And your comment about themastermind is so spot-on because
what I always tell people like,yes, everybody does need
coaching at some point.
But I always tell people you gointo the high masterminds and
then what they're teaching youto do you have to remember, you
have to pay the mastermind andthen you have to Find the money
to implement whatever it isthey're telling you to do.
(13:28):
So if you go into themastermind, they're telling you
to hire employees.
Well, if you just paid Fivefigures, high five figures, even
six figures for this mastermindand you have to figure out the
money to do all this other stuff, it's kind of like you just got
yourself into a situation whenwhat you could have done is Hire
(13:49):
an expert, hire an employee toactually help you
specifically with this.
I always tell people therecomes a time where you have to
hire more specialized helpversus coaching.
Like it's two different.
It's two completely differentthings and I think people often
confuse the two.
And then they're stressed, andI'm like you're stressed because
(14:10):
what you need to do is hireemployees.
You need hands, you need peopleto be able to implement the
stuff that you want to implementand you know, if you're going
into mastermind and you'repaying them all this money and
all they're telling you to do ishire virtual assistant.
I Mean I would, I would beremiss if I didn't say you need
(14:31):
to really look at thisinvestment, because I can tell
you people who are at themillion dollar mark eight
figures, nine figures they haveteams, yeah, they have people
working to help them, because ifthey don't, you can't take a
vacation, you can't do any ofthat stuff, and that is that
really the kind of business orlife that you envision for
(14:52):
yourself?
So those are, these arequestions you should be asking
yourself.
Brooke Monaghan (14:56):
Yeah, and if you're looking at hiring, if
you're, if you are feeling thepressure of needing to hire,
probably the reason for that isbecause you are feeling like you
need help with implementation,not ideation or strategizing.
And so if you need help withimplementation, no amount of I'm
(15:16):
gonna tell you what to do orcoach you through
problem-solving around things isreally gonna stop like you're
still gonna need help with theimplementation.
You're still gonna have to turnaround and do it.
So [Kimone Napier] exactly andas a coach, I recognize I care,
I love coaching, I think thatcoaching can be great for a
specific type of person, butsometimes it just gets out of
(15:37):
hand where I'm just like I donot understand.
I have cannot tell you thenumber of people who I'm like
you need to go for to a lawyerfor that, and they're like I,
like I have to go to a lawyer,it's gonna be so expensive, and
I'm like let's talk about thisprogram that you just joined for
like five thousand dollars,like what, what?
I don't get it.
Anyways, okay, now I'm gettingjudgmental.
(16:00):
So let's say that somebody hasthen decided like okay, I'm
gonna hire an employee.
Or they now know the route thatthey want to go.
Even if they do want to hirelike an independent contractor,
they're clear on the route thatthey want to go.
What are some of the firstthings that people should
consider or do to try to findthe person who's like the right
(16:21):
fit in terms of they canactually perform the role, but
also like they're a good fit towork with you.
How should people get startedwith that?
Kimone Napier (16:29):
So the first thing is that when you're
deciding, like okay, I need tohire somebody, the first thing
is establish your hiring budget.
Figure out, like okay, how muchis it that you can afford to
pay somebody.
And if you realize, like okay,I don't have enough to afford to
pay somebody, it's like I tellpeople approach it like a cash
injection, like if you wait tothe moment that you really need
(16:51):
somebody, it becomes harder.
But if you plan ahead, you canstart to set aside the reserves,
just like you do.
if do profit first, you setaside reserve for taxes and
stuff like that.
Approach hiring just like that,and have like an account where
it's solely for that for team,because it makes it so much
easier for you.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is like okay,you're like, okay, this is the
(17:12):
person that I need.
Now I need to figure out who itis that, like I want to hire.
You need to create like almostlike, an avatar for this person.
Now, when I say avatar, I meanlike.
I don't mean like, okay, thisperson needs to look a certain
way or anything like that.
What I mean is what's the skillset that they need to have?
Like the experience, theeducation necessary, necessary.
(17:32):
What is it that you want themto believe about your company?
Like, are they in alignmentwith your company mission?
Where is it that they want togo, maybe in the next three or
five years, and is that inalignment where you want to go
with your company as well?
So you want to have thisprofile so it makes it easier
(17:53):
for you to pick out the idealtalent for the role.
And usually people don't do this, they skip this part.
But it really does honestlyhelp, because if you're also in
a situation where you start totry to find the talent and
you're getting theseapplications, it becomes very
overwhelming, especially if youdon't have somebody dedicated in
(18:13):
your business to actually likemanage this process for you.
You're going to have to do ityourself as the leader, and it
takes time.
Like I always tell people likeit takes like literally like 68
hours for like from start tofinish, to actually find the
talent, screen them, interviewthem, all that kind of stuff.
It requires a lot of time.
(18:35):
So if you don't have a lot oftime, you want to make sure you
do some of these steps to makeit easier for you in the process
and to make an informed and anot biased decision, because
sometimes I see a lot ofbusiness owners.
They hire people that are likethem, and usually you don't need
somebody who's like you.
You need somebody who isopposite of you, somebody that
(18:57):
their strengths are yourweaknesses.
To balance the business out iswhat you truly need.
So you want to make sure youhave all that stuff like it's
almost like a rubric or ascorecard for yourself as you're
screening these applicationsand stuff like that and then you
know the kind of questions thatyou need to ask in order for
you to make an informed decision.
(19:18):
As to like, will this person beable to help me?
Because you know, if you guyshave the same you like the same
color and the same food, thatdoesn't mean this person is
going to be able to operate inyour business, but you'd be
surprised at the way people getinto jobs and the way they get
hired.
This is the way that youshouldn't do it, but if you
(19:38):
follow these three things thatI'm talking about, it makes it
easier for you to actually pullout the talent that you need to
really help take your businessto the next level.
So that's how I would recommendeveryone approach it when it
comes to hiring and findingquality talent.
Brooke Monaghan (19:55):
Yeah, I love that.
I love how like juststraightforward you are Ki mone.
One of the things that I usedto do a lot when I was hiring
people in other roles and likedoing interviews is I would if
there was ever any kind ofanxiety around like, but what if
we get the wrong person again?
Because, especially in roleswhere that I had, where, like
(20:17):
there was turnover with acertain position.
Kimone Napier (20:20):
[Brooke Monaghan] Well, what
Brooke Monaghan (20:21):
if we get the wrong person?
Whenever there's anxiety aroundthat, I would always try to
talk to people on the team aboutlike, what would it look like
for this to go wrong?
Like, what are you worriedabout happening?
What is an example of not theright fit?
What behavior specifically wasnot good and didn't work?
What specific behavior are youworried about?
(20:41):
So then, that way we could likethen be like okay, well, this is
how we want people to handle itinstead, and then we could
create interview questionsaround that, or like case
studies even, or examplequestions when it's like okay,
here's an example of a thingthat happens in the role.
Tell me how you would approachthat, and you can kind of head
that off at the pass, because Ifind that it's one of the things
(21:02):
that holds people back fromhiring the right person for the
job, versus just someonerecommended this person and so I
just hired this random VA andnow I'm just having them do this
stuff because so and so saidthey were great.
One of the things that holdspeople back from going out and
doing an intentional search islike they're just worried about
(21:22):
putting so much effort into itand then they get the wrong
person, and so it's like, ifyou're worried about that, get
specific about what the concernsare and ask questions that
allow you to understand whetheror not that person is going to
approach things in a way thatyou would want them to approach
it.
I've even had situations inpast jobs where, like, we would
(21:44):
give specific case studies kindof like ahead of time, like this
is a situation that we're goingto ask you about.
We want you to take a littlebit of time to think about like
how you would approach this toget like their thought through,
considered response and not justtry to like catch people and
like actually get to know howthey think about things.
So yeah, just throwing that inthere for additional thoughts.
Kimone Napier (22:07):
I think the problem is people don't, they
don't estimate the amount oftime this is going to take, and
so what they do is like I'mgoing to throw up a job
description and find somebody,and that's the default.
That's why the hopes and dreamsthat you have when it comes to
your team are not being met.
Like that's where a lot ofpeople get frustrated with
hiring and so forth, and I thinkit's also a reason why people
(22:28):
default to the contractor thingis because they don't want to
spend the time.
Like business owners tend todefault straight to sales and
marketing.
But as your business grows,things like financials, legal,
HR, recruitment all that stuffis going to be very important
(22:51):
because you need those aspectsas you continue to grow.
It's like you know it's more.
It's like more.
It's like no reward withoutrisk.
And as you continue to makemore money, there's more
inherent risk, right, there'sother laws you have to follow,
Like you might get audited bythe IRS, like there's all these
things that comes intoperspective, and so you need to
be prepared to handle a lot ofthose things.
(23:13):
So, for example, like when youstart to hire, you need to be
prepared like how am I going totrain this person?
How am I going to likeacclimate them into the team and
how this team works, and stufflike that.
So those are the kind of thingsyou need to think about before
you even start hiring, becauseit makes the process a little
bit more seamless, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (23:33):
Thank you, Kimone.
[Kimone Napier] Of course.
[Brooke Monaghan] This was sofun.
I appreciate your wisdom somuch.
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