September 26, 2023 • 58 mins
Katherine Sleadd (she/her) is a trauma informed coach and the author of the book How to Be a Bad Friend . She has developed a deep body of work around friendship breakups, community loss, and family of origin.
In this episode, I asked Kat to join me in a conversation about:
- Why clients, or potential clients, may ghost. Especially when it seems like things are going so well.
- Why being in the field of offering change or transformation requires us to deal with the 'push and pull' of deeply desiring change while also craving familiarity
- Why we resort to putting people in categories (good/bad, right/wrong, toxic, etc) as a way to protect ourselves
- The importance of conflict in developing our sense of self, and the ways we have been actively conditioned to not engage in it
This episode is for business owners who offer transformation, who have wondered why seemingly perfect fit clients have suddenly dropped off, and who have struggled to make their needs known or fear being "difficult".
You can find Kat's work at www.katherinesleadd.com
Follow her on Instagram @katesleadd
And purchase her book here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katherine Sleadd (00:00):
Whenever we're looking at change, we both want
it and don't want it, becausewe want security and we want
familiarity.
So then, if part of ourprofession is offering change to
people in their business, intheir lives, in their mental
health.
You're constantly walking thatline of push-pull.
Brooke Monaghan (00:29):
Welcome to another episode of Make Your
Business Work For You.
I have two new episodes for youtoday, and in this episode
you're going to hear aconversation between me and Kat
Sleadd, also known as KatherineSleadd.
I am just lucky enough to be ona nickname basis with Kat, so
you'll hear me say Katthroughout this episode.
(00:49):
Kat uses she and her pronouns,as you will hear.
Now may also be a great time tosay that I also use she and her
pronouns.
Did I say that at any point inthe last two episodes?
I don't remember, but let'sjust keep saying it.
I asked Kat to come on the showbecause for a while I have
wanted to do something with Kataround the concept of client
(01:10):
ghosting.
Let me say a little bit more.
Kat says in this episode thatshe has been in one of my
programs for a few years, so Ihave been lucky enough to have
her in my spaces.
There was a time where Kat cameoff mute to offer something to
somebody in the group andbasically shared: We need to
(01:33):
understand that if we are in thebusiness of offering people
transformation, we need tounderstand that people the
change is hard for people, right, and so when somebody says that
they want to work with you andthen they don't answer any of
your emails after that or whensomebody is working with you,
and then they kind of duck outof that work and either stop
(01:56):
coming back or say they need toend things suddenly, Kat brought
to light for me something thatonce I heard it, it felt so
obvious but it was reallypivotal at the time when I first
heard her talk about it, or atleast the way that she spoke
about it which was thatsometimes you've done everything
(02:17):
right in meeting this personand showing them how you could
help them move along, and it'sactually the fact that you have
shown them that you could carefor them in just the way that
they need to be cared for duringthat time, or you could help
them achieve the exacttransformation that they're
looking for at the time.
That could be the very thingthat makes that person pull away
(02:39):
because of the fact thatthey're being confronted with a
big change.
We talk about this, but we alsotalk about so much more in this
episode, just aroundrelationships and being in
disagreement and the way that wetend to categorize people, to
keep ourselves safe and decidethat there's good ones and bad
ones and all of that.
Before we get into this episode,I do want to mention a couple
of things.
Kat has a fantastic new bookcalled How to Be a Bad Friend.
(03:01):
Just as I asked Kat to come ontoday to give some context to
why clients might, or potentialclients might ghost Kat's book,
I think, does a really beautifuljob of illustrating some of the
context around failedfriendships, which is a really
tender subject for people, and,as I say in this episode, it's
(03:24):
about friendship, but it's alsoabout so much more.
It's really just aboutrelationships in general, so I'm
going to be linking to that inthe show notes.
The other couple of things thatI wanted to mention is that if
you have not already left arating and a review for the
podcast and you're enjoying it,please, please, do that in Apple
Podcasts.
It makes a huge difference andI really appreciate it.
Also, if you know somebody whowould enjoy the show or who
(03:47):
wants to submit questions forthe show, share the show with
them.
Head to joinfruition.
com, share that with them.
They can submit their questionsand get responses from one of
our expert contributors, whichwe have many of at this point.
Okay, let's get into today'sepisode.
I don't want to keep you toomuch longer.
I hope you enjoy.
(04:15):
I wanted to do something withyou for a long time around a few
of the topics that we're goingto talk about.
The first one was clientghosting, because this is a
thing that I've just been insituations where a thing has
happened and then you've kind ofbeen like would you be open to
some context on that?
(04:37):
And then you pop in and you justbreak the whole thing down in
such a way where I'm just likeholy shit, like it's so helpful
to know some of the things thatI've learned from you.
And so, you know, I think I justthrew it out there to you at
some point to be like we need todo something about client
(04:57):
ghosting at some point.
And then since then I'mactually glad that we waited,
because now I feel like I amseeing parallel.
I'm seeing things in my lifedaily that are so related to
your book, and not evennecessarily friendship things,
some friendship things but justrelationships in general and the
(05:20):
ways that I'm realizing I wastaught I was supposed to be in
relationships and how thatreally causes me to never
actually allow people to know me.
You know, so, yeah, so anyways,I kind of I wanted to actually
(05:44):
intentionally not be superprepared for this conversation
with you because I wanted toallow the beautiful thing that I
always see happen with you,which is I bring a thing up that
I'm like I think I see thisthing happening and you're like
actually, oh no, this is what Iknow.
Katherine Sleadd (06:00):
What's funny is people will tell me I've said
things that are like meaningfulto them and I just have no
memory meaning like I know thatI do talk a lot, but actually
don't talk a lot.
You actually don't talk a lot.
Brooke Monaghan (06:13):
You are the kind of person who's like very
quiet.
You actually remind me a lot ofwho I was when I was younger,
which is, you're very quiet, andthen, when you say something,
it's very clear to me that youhave been incredibly intentional
with what you were about to say.
At least that's how it seems tome.
(06:34):
It seems like you open yourmouth when you have something
really poignant to say, and onlywhen it is necessary to like,
insert yourself and it is justso.
Katherine Sleadd (06:43):
maybe we need to get drinks sometime then and
it will expand the narrative ofdefinitely do.
Yes.
Brooke Monaghan (06:53):
OK.
So I think I actually OK, let'sjust start with the client
ghosting, because we just get itoff, the we get we got to, we
got to make sure that thathappens.
So, something that I learnedfrom you is that when and I'm
going to put this in my termsand then I'm going to allow you
(07:14):
to come in and be like let meactually explain what's
happening here.
Something that I've learnedfrom you is that there's a thing
that can happen inrelationships with clients,
especially when you're in acoaching relationship or in some
kind of support role, where youmight think that seeing
(07:35):
somebody in like an initial callthat you have with them or in
any kind of call that you havewith them really seeing them and
really noticing like what it isthat they need that in that
moment, and just kind of goingin and being like here's what I
notice and here and offeringthat, you would think that that
would be like that was going toblow that person's mind and make
them be like you are the personthat I want to work with
(07:57):
forever and ever and ever, maybenot that much, but you know
some of it.
Katherine Sleadd (08:01):
I mean don't we?
Isn't that our fantasy, though?
Brooke Monaghan (08:04):
But that actually sometimes that has the
opposite effect, which is thatthat person kind of runs away
from it.
Katherine Sleadd (08:16):
Yeah, well, I think I remember this, where
what I?
I do remember what I said aboutthis, so maybe I'm like, OK,
I'll try to pull it back up.
But like I think sometimes youknow, whenever we're looking at
change, we both want it anddon't want it, Because we want
security and we want familiarity, and so then a part of our
profession is offering change topeople in their business, in
(08:39):
their lives, in their mentalhealth.
You're constantly walking thatline of like push, pull of, you
know you're inviting someone tosomething new and they're
seeking you because they wantsomething new.
And that's like the agreementand the structure and you know
(08:59):
you can be as clear as possibleabout it.
And I don't know, I think Iwant to say like sometimes that
just happens, you know.
Yeah, so that's just like thebaseline of it is we both want
change and we don't want change.
And so then if someone actuallydoes see that you would be a
great fit and then, for whateverreason, because because they're
(09:20):
now out of the picture.
We don't know why they left,but it seems common enough in
multiple across industries oflike a helping profession.
Brooke Monaghan (09:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's like really, I've justhad so many scenarios where
I've seen clients of mine reallyfeel devastated by the fact
that they thought they had thisconnection with a client and
then the client either said theywanted to work with them and
never responded to an emailagain or was in a program with
(09:52):
them or a relationship with themand literally just like stopped
.
Either stopped showing up anddidn't say anything or said you
know, actually I need to likeout of seemingly out of nowhere,
I need to end this or whatever.
And it makes so much sense onceI heard you kind of explain
(10:14):
that to be like, oh yeah, likethere's no way of knowing what
is going on for that person.
It's not like in every scenarioand that's not what we're
saying.
Like it's not like in everyscenario.
If somebody stops working withyou or doesn't respond to you,
it's because of this.
Katherine Sleadd (10:30):
Totally.
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (10:31):
But there's certainly situations where it's
not that you did anything wrong,it's not that you should have
whatever.
It's actually that like forthat person, they have their own
process and like they mightjust be in a place where they're
not actually ready to facewhatever kind of transformation
(10:52):
could come from what they mightsee being like almost a rapid
kind of thing that would comeabout from working with you or
from facing the things thatthey're recognizing they might
have to change to work with youor whatever, and being able to
point that out or notice it evenfor myself sometimes or even
have it as a possibility, notlike oh, that's what happened,
(11:14):
but be like, oh, it could havebeen this.
T o me is like, really, reallyhelpful.
Katherine Sleadd (11:21):
Yeah Well, because we get.
I mean, I feel like there's twoquestions here because there's
like ghosting of you know, and Ialso want to just put a
disclaimer in.
I don't have, I mean, do I likebeing ghosted?
Ab- so- fucking- lutely not.
Also, like I don't want to makeit a moral judgment, so, like
it's, I want to use it as a wordin this conversation.
(11:44):
So I'm just like hey, if anyoneout there has ghosted their
whoever, yes, it's a functionalword of like oh, you were gone
now suddenly without explanation.
But so there's two categorieshere.
You see, like the initial call,you know you're offering that
change and then you never hearfrom them again, even though you
(12:04):
think there's like this goodconnection and, like you're,
they're moving forward in theprocess, you feel like you're
both a good fit for each other.
And then there's the scenarioof you've been working with
somebody and then they justdon't show up to their calls
anymore or or whatever capacityof that.
Maybe they give you a littlebit of information, or they give
you information that you feelis out of nowhere, or no info
(12:27):
and just cancellation.
So I want to notice like thosefeel like a little bit different
categories, too, of likeexperiences.
But to come back to what yousaid, it's really vulnerable to
be in the work of change withpeople.
It's vulnerable to allowsomeone to help you in that like
.
It's vulnerable to show up forthat in yourself, like as a
(12:51):
client.
And it's also vulnerable as acoach or as a mentor, as you
know, a therapist or whateverother title in the person to
person field that we're talkingabout.
Because you care, you, you givea damn.
You wouldn't be in this workotherwise.
Yeah, so go ahead, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (13:13):
Oh no, I you know something was coming up as
you were talking, which is I'mreally glad that you said like
this isn't a moral judgment,because actually what it's done
for me has allowed me tounderstand why somebody might
it's not actually in someinstances, I'm not going to lie
it makes me feel better to thinkthat it's an option, that
(13:34):
that's what happened to be like.
Oh, maybe I was just so like.
You know, I just met them rightwhere they were and it was so
obvious to them what wouldhappen from working with me.
You know, of course I've gonethere, but actually what I think
it's allowed me to do is justhave some more, leave some space
(13:55):
for different people'sprocesses to be different and
not make it about me, which isso important and I think really
gets lost in coaching spaces,where it's very focused on
training.
It's very focused ontransformation and results,
because what you're supposed todo as a coach is you're supposed
(14:16):
to be able to say this is whatI do for clients, this is where
I get you and you're supposed tobe able to walk them through,
bring them through a process,and that's where they land and
that means that you did a goodjob.
And what gets lost in that isthat that doesn't account for
not just different circumstances.
(14:36):
I think we talk sometimes aboutdifferent circumstances, people
having different financialcircumstances or different lived
experiences that's certainly apart of it but also, just like
their inner landscape of whatthey're actually going through
when they go through change andhow
if we make it about us and theresults that we get people too,
we are in danger of losing thepart where it just might take
(15:03):
people a different route to get,or a different amount of time
to get, where they're going togo.
And this is something thatNicole Lewis-Keeber, who is a
therapist and works on traumaand entrepreneurship and is
going to be on the show at somepoint, was telling me when we
did an interview for my lastshow.
She had said something aboutsometimes she's working with
(15:26):
coaches and they're reallyfrustrated by a certain client
because they're not progressingin the way that they would like
to see them progress.
And she was like you actuallycan't force somebody.
Not only is there often justnothing, it's not within your
power.
But if you try to forcesomebody to experience a change,
(15:48):
to work within your timeline,to make you a good coach, you're
actually like trampling over,like their experience and how
they deal with things and theirprocess, and this, to me, nests
into that.
Katherine Sleadd (16:03):
Yeah, totally Well, I think about the idea of
what are the maybe common waysthat we deal with being ghosted
as a coach.
What's the story that we aretelling ourselves?
Are we telling ourselves we area failure?
Or I will tend to run throughmy own like gosh, what could I
(16:26):
have done better?
And I think there's like that'sdefinitely healthy, like you
need to have ability to look athow you, why there was a sudden
disconnect and what you did thatcontributed to that, not just
for the future of your business,but also just for your
continued work with whoeveryou're going to sit with.
(16:46):
I mean, it's sorry, lost my owntrain of thought, but the
frustration aspect and thestuckness I wonder if that comes
as like a common theme forpeople when they find a sudden
ending with a client, becauseyeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know
if you want to jump in there.
Brooke Monaghan (17:07):
Yeah, no, I think that in the conversation
that I was having about thatwith Nicole, it was kind of like
and I guess I'm drawing aparallel it's like sometimes
it's and I've seen, I've watchedcoaches do this where they see
a client kind of I'm going touse really what I would not
(17:29):
terminology that I wouldactually use, but the way that I
see people thinking about it,like this client bailed out
right at the part where thingswere going to get hard because
they just didn't want to do thework.
Um, or this client just isn'tprogressing in the way that they
could be and it's sofrustrating because they're just
(17:50):
not taking action.
Yeah, why did you oof?
Katherine Sleadd (17:56):
I just think about how much easier it is for
us to accuse ourselves or otherpeople when we are going through
something painful.
Brooke Monaghan (18:07):
Yes, thank you.
And so I think that thisconversation about what someone
might be experiencing that wouldmake them maybe decide,
sometimes not even consciously.
I mean we have so much shitgoing on, I have so many emails
Like there is no way that I havenot left somebody hanging over
(18:29):
the past few months and I justcan't remember it because I just
the communication is constantand so it's not even always
conscious.
It might just be that somebodyis like they saw this, it was a
lot, you go back to your life.
And having this conversationwith you about why this might
(18:52):
happen to me leaves so muchspace for us to just open things
up a little bit and be like, ohokay, maybe it wasn't actually
that anyone did anything wrongnecessarily.
Katherine Sleadd (19:06):
[Katherine Sleadd] Yeah, yeah, like
breathing room for the suddenendings of things, and like that
also sounds like reallyliberating, you know, as
somebody who is working withpeople vulnerably, from that
side of you know, offering thesupport and the care you know.
I think that you would probablyagree with me.
(19:29):
Most of the people that youwork with are probably a little
bit harder on themselves.
Like that would lean towardsskew, towards that side, less
towards the side of like oh,they weren't just ready, or
whatever.
Yes, like they're going to takeit all on and we actually won't
be able to show up well andauthentically if we're not
honestly looking at whathappened and if it was just
(19:50):
they're going back to their life.
You looked at it and in one earout the other, like moving on,
like from an initial call oreven you know, somewhere in the
middle like something else thatin their landscape, as you said,
is like disrupting in the wayor whatever, and there's not an
ability for them to communicatethat and actually has nothing to
(20:11):
do with you.
Yeah, like what are we?
How can we have a little bitmore relief for ourselves?
Because I mean, gosh, it sucks,especially when you're self
employed too.
Like, that's the nature of it.
Brooke Monaghan (20:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So, as we're talking about this, something that I am also like
seeing a parallel to, and Ithink that this is something
that I mean ghosting isdefinitely something that you
talk about in your book, butthere's and this is really the
reason why I wanted to make surethat we talk because, like I
(20:48):
was saying, I mean I just see somany relational dynamics play
out that I'm just like, oh, likeit's like 17 times a day.
I'm like, oh, how to be a badfriend.
Oh, how to be a bad friend.
Oh, like I just see iteverywhere now.
And I think that part of thatis because in my own therapy,
I'm just really working on likebeing more authentic with people
and, and just learning myselftoo.
(21:08):
And something that you pointout and that I really love about
your work and that I think wesee happen in the scenario that
we were just talking about, andwe also see it happen just in
general in the businessdevelopment space, is how quick
we are to just put people incategories.
Katherine Sleadd (21:31):
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (21:34):
You know, like if you have a call with a client
, a potential client, and thenthey don't they say they want to
work with you and then theydon't it can be really self
protective and make you feelbetter to be like, well, that
person just doesn't want to dothe work, or that person has
some shit to deal with, orwhatever.
Katherine Sleadd (21:51):
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (21:52):
Whether that's true or not is just like the
tone of it, even like it wasn't.
It wasn't me, it was them,because it has to be somebody
right?
Like somebody always has to belike at fault or like the you
know the wrong one, the bad one,whatever.
And then also what happens whenwe look, because I very much
(22:14):
believe that, like we need toopen some space for different
people to do businessdifferently.
But there's also a thing thathappens in that where you could
see somebody do a thing that youdon't agree with and suddenly
they're in the unethicalcategory, which is not to say
that people don't do fucked upshit, but it is to say that just
(22:36):
because somebody is doingsomething differently than maybe
how you would do things, Idon't know that we need to draw
these clear distinctions betweenthe people who are doing
business in a good way and thepeople who are doing business in
a bad way.
Or I thought this person wasgood and then I found out they
were bad, sort of.
(22:58):
And I guess I'm just wondering,like I don't know, as I say that
, like, is there anything that'slike popping up?
Is there anything that's likepopping up for you that you're
like oh my God, you have so muchto say, I already know.
I just need to shut up.
Katherine Sleadd (23:09):
No, no, I love , no, I love more context and
building it out, because youknow, this is like a, a I don't
know a buffet of like fun, funtopics to go over.
So I'm like I move my hair outof the way, I'm like, okay, I'm
like, do we want like a littlelike?
And now I feel like we shouldhave a theme song, like a little
fun moment for psycho-e d.
(23:30):
I am obsessed with psychoanalysis and it's like you know
not just from getting my degreelike I would read those books as
a hobby, because that's how youcan then go down a rabbit hole
of what's wrong with me.
Um, but, like, what a shameshe's fucked in the head.
There's our first Taylor quoteof the day Um, so I think what
(23:53):
you've just illustrated there iswe put people in these
categories of good and bad, andessentially what that is is it's
an unconscious defensestructure.
So we always have somewhere togo so that we can be protected
from the uncertainty of nuance,and it's like a very human thing
to do.
So we're not bad if we do it.
We don't need to stop trying todo it.
(24:15):
But how can we actually bringit forward into our awareness so
we can noticewe're doing it and then we get
to make the choice about, we getto make value judgments and
statements about people, but wealso get to understand why we're
doing that.
Are we doing it to protectourselves or do we actually need
to do it so that we are actingin integrity and appropriately
(24:35):
evaluating the situation?
So splitting is a function ofthe mind that we Um have as an
unconscious defense structure,so it and that we won't.
And by that I mean and this iswhere, like even even in saying
this, I'm like I still don'tbelieve it's true Um, like it's
(24:58):
unconscious.
So again we don't fucking knowthat we're doing it when we're
doing it no matter what.
So if we can see ourselves whenwe are like, oh, I put these in
categories.
Or oh, I'm saying like, well,they just had shit to do.
Or or I'm telling myself, I'mjust, I'm actually terrible at
this and I don't, who do I, whodo I think I am?
(25:19):
Like you might look back atthat like, oh wow, this morning
I was, I was splitting, I wasputting things in this black and
white space because I need tobe safe.
Yeah, and then do I need to dothat to be safe?
No, I can actually work withwhat's happened here with some
more space.
(25:41):
W ith some more freedom forinterpretation, with some more
curiosity towards myself,curiosity towards the other, and
then actually will find you'llfind newness there and more data
than you would otherwise, doesthat make sense?
Brooke Monaghan (25:55):
makes total sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense.
And, as you're saying that I'mjust kind of going back into
like so I recently had anexperience where I was seeing a
person who I really deeplyrespect do something that I was
(26:16):
like, okay, I really reallyrespect this person and I know
that they would never intend todo what I see they're doing
right now.
And it was one of the firsttimes.
True, I am 33.
This is like embarrassing withthis is one of the first times,
but it is truly one of the firsttimes.
[Katherine] I disagree butcontinue.
[Brooke] thank you, truly oneof the first times that I was
(26:40):
able to go oh, wow, this personwho I have so much respect for,
who I know is so skilled at whatthey do and who would never
want to do this intentionally,is doing this, and I don't have
to choose between shutting upand being okay with it or
(27:05):
putting them in the category ofoh, you're not who I thought you
were.
I'm out.
And that middle ground of I'mgoing to maintain space for the
respect and for the benefit ofthe doubt and for the compassion
that I have for you and forknowing that you actually are
(27:27):
deeply skilled, and also for thefact that in this moment,
you're doing a thing that is notactually an integrity and I
have to say something because Icare about this relationship and
because I want to be here isnot something that I, at least
and I don't think most peoplewere ever taught how to do.
Katherine Sleadd (27:46):
You know, we weren't.
In fact, we were activelyconditioned and taught not to do
it.
Brooke Monaghan (27:52):
Yeah.
Katherine Sleadd (27:55):
I mean, that's my other like favorite book
that I found towards the end ofmy process of writing How to Be
a Bad Friend, but it was justresearch done on adolescent
girls in the 90s, published, bythe way, by the same, if you're
a fan of Women Who Run with theWolves, I feel like that's a lot
of people love that book.
It's published by the samedivision of publishing house and
(28:18):
in the same year.
ca ll them like sisters,they're actually sitting on my
desk right now, but the book'scalled Meeting at the Crossroads
and it's just about how girlsare taught that they cannot have
open And.
nd you have to silence yourself, but actually the place where,
literally, we develop our voice.
and our capacity for our ownidentity and our ability to
(28:40):
express and communicate that isonly happens in conflict.
If you think about it, makessense, because conflict is where
two people do not agree andtherefore you have one point of
view and another point of view,and then if you have two same
points of view, then that's,that's also fine.
But like there's no uniquenessthere, it's homogenous
(29:02):
essentially.
Brooke Monaghan (29:03):
Yes.
Katherine Sleadd (29:04):
So you can't actually develop yourself
without difference.
And then to your point, though,to step into this middle space
of not going okay, I thought youwere good and you're actually
not or like just shuttingyourself away, is it's a huge
risk because of all of thissocietal conditioning that to
(29:31):
address a problem means you thenbecome the problem, as opposed
to there being separate things.
So good on you.
Brooke Monaghan (29:40):
I'm sitting here like smiling, with my eyes
closed, because my only othercall of the day so far was
therapy.
Katherine Sleadd (29:48):
Oh hey.
Brooke Monaghan (29:49):
And do you want to know what I opened therapy
with today?
Katherine Sleadd (29:54):
Oh, absolutely .
Brooke Monaghan (29:57):
I was talking about the situation that I just
told you about my.
I had told my therapist aboutthis situation because it was
just not because it was a hugedeal actually, but because it
was a big deal for me because ofthe fact that I was exploring
that, oh, I really have atendency to think that my only
options are to shut myself downor cut this person off.
It just it's a big deal for meand it did feel like a huge risk
(30:24):
.
And it is a huge risk.
I think that we have a tendencyto be like you're going to do
the right thing and theneverything is going to work out,
because actually, you might besurprised to hear how people are
going to respond to you, whichis just a way to be like oh no,
it's actually all you, if youjust handle things differently,
right?
That's actually not true, likeif you decide that you're going
to handle things very, you haveno idea how the person is going
(30:44):
to respond and it was incrediblyrisky and it was incredibly
emotional for me Because, again,not a huge deal externally, but
a huge deal for me, and I saidto my therapist today I go okay.
So we got past that thing andnow I just keep bumping up
against.
Why did you have to be sodifficult?
That's, the new story is likethat didn't really change all of
(31:09):
that much to have thatconversation.
So why did you have to bring itup then?
Why be so difficult?
You're just difficult, yeah.
And so when you were saying,you know, when you bring it up,
it makes you the problem, I waslike, oh, that's, and that's
what I'm doing to myself.
No one's doing that to me.
I'm doing that to myself.
In situations, people do dothat to people.
In this situation, I was luckyenough that the person did not
(31:32):
do that to me and actually wasvery gracious in the way that
they accepted it.
But and I'm doing it to myself,probably because of the ways
that it actually was done to meso many times before but yeah,
that was going to say there'sthe, that wiring is like that's.
Katherine Sleadd (31:48):
That's from something, somewhere, yeah, yeah
.
Brooke Monaghan (31:52):
Yeah, I know exactly where that's from.
But yeah, there you go.
It's not, you know, that's.
That's what the first hour oftoday was for.
Katherine Sleadd (31:59):
Well, but I think to the point of like
stepping into that mental space.
You're not, you're alsorewriting you know, however many
stories you have been made tobe the problem for bringing up
the fact that there is a problem, yeah, so and so, in a sense,
like when you say not a lotchanged.
(32:19):
Like actually, like a lot didchange because you showed up for
you, for you, and thisrelationship and whatever
setting, like that of the issuebeing addressed.
But then if it has this likedomino effect of where you know,
(32:40):
I think it's like easier to.
It feels a little gaslightysometimes to me because of all
the times I've spoken up aboutproblems and then it's not gone
well, and still believing itmatters for my own sake and my
own story and my own voice andwhatever I'm speaking up about,
(33:02):
whoever that impacts.
But also like there's somethinggoing on that we can't see.
Like it's, it's changing alarger narrative to do this.
Brooke Monaghan (33:15):
Yeah, and and I think that to be, I guess, to
kind of like put a point on thisit's like the reason that I
really, really wanted to havethis conversation with you as
one of the first episodes ofthis new show is because at
least what I've learned formyself and I would love to hear
if you have thoughts on that,and I would love to hear if you
have thoughts on this is that Ineed, need, really needed to
(33:43):
learn how to, in learning how togive people some amount of
grace, in holding themaccountable to things and doing
both, like being in the both andand in that middle space.
I've also learned how to dothat for me, like they're,
they're so like tied up in eachother, right, like the thing,
(34:06):
the standards that I put myself,I'm casting on other people,
the way that I'm interactingwith other people, or that's
ultimately like one of thestandards that I'm putting on me
.
And when we talk about thisconcept of make your business
work for you, or do business ina way that works for you, and
we're existing in this spacewhere there are so many
judgments being cast all thetime about the right way to do
(34:29):
business and the wrong way to dobusiness work.
This person is unethicalbecause of this, this person's
slimy because of that.
So again, sometimes they are.
But sometimes it's like we needto learn how to look at other
people and understand theremight be a million things going
on that you know nothing aboutthat inform why that person's
(34:50):
doing that and in and likewise,you might decide for yourself to
do things in a very differentway from how the quote unquote
good ones told you to do it, andI want that for people like I
want people to be able to leaninto themselves a bit more and
be like I'm going to kind ofinvent my own way of going about
(35:13):
this without feeling like thereare these clear categories that
I need to kind of like exist inor I don't need.
I said that to put a point onit and I totally didn't put a
point on it.
Katherine Sleadd (35:22):
But yeah, I think you did.
I'll field it back.
I like as if we kind of mayberound out the client ghosting.
What I hear you saying isactually like you had this
opportunity to ghost is, inessence, either ghost yourself
by disavowing your experienceand staying in [brooke] oh my
God, self ghosting, holy shit.
[katherine] And and something Isay about, like our experience
(35:46):
is, nothing is going to changeunless your experience matters.
So it's one of the big notyou're not making it the focus
of everything, but it isimportant data that if you're
not listening to it, you'regoing nowhere.
So you could ghost yourself oryou could ghost the person you
know that is in the scenarioyou're talking about, and you
didn't.
And you, you showed up in themiddle space.
(36:07):
I think that there's two thingsabout that.
Like, when you are ghosted by aclient, there's some breakdown
in communication that hashappened and maybe that's all on
them.
Maybe you've created thecontainer where actually you do
need to actually be real honestwith yourself to say, like
actually I have created a goodcontainer here and I'm just not
going to know what happens, butI'm not going to participate in
(36:30):
accusing myself or accusing themand sit with that, sit with the
discomfort of that.
Yeah, but there's an M, there'sa middle space there where now
nothing will be unless somehowthey come back around.
Essentially.
So, to come back to what you'resaying, you, you showed up in
that middle space, and I thinkthe second thing that that also
(36:50):
does is it makes it more painfulthan if you're ever left there,
because if you took a chance onit, why won't somebody else?
Brooke Monaghan (36:59):
Yeah, so yeah, it's really.
Yeah, I was, I was hanging therefor a minute and I was like a
mess, but again it's like yeah,yeah, I don't know.
(37:20):
I think I said everything that Iwas going to say on it.
The other thing that I think Iwanted to pull into this
conversation is when okay, soputting it in those terms of
when you're in a situation whereyou could either ghost yourself
or ghost that person, or youcould show up in the middle and
(37:44):
what it feels like to not be metthere there's a thing that is
at risk there, which is not justthe relationship with that
person, but potentially yourentire shared community, and I
know that community loss issomething that you talk a lot
(38:06):
about, that you've experienced,and I think that it would be
really helpful to have aconversation about this, because
so many of the supportprogramming for small business
owners including my own, by theway is in groups, and I don't
(38:26):
know that people give themselvesenough credit for how risky it
can feel to show up as yourselfwhen you're in a space where it
feels like you have created a,you belong with this group of
people, and if you show upauthentically as yourself or if
you show up in that middle spacewith somebody in that group.
(38:49):
What could potentially happen ifeveryone thinks a thing about
you and now you lose your wholefucking community?
That's like a huge deal andit's playing out in support
spaces in the business world.
Katherine Sleadd (39:03):
Yeah, it is.
I mean, I guess you would havean eye on that, but as somebody
that's been with your group forthree years, I will say I'm
sitting here going like so whatdo you think the magic sauce is,
Brooke, because this is likeyou cultivate community that
I've been a part of and feltable to show up authentically
(39:24):
and been able to do a lotbecause of that.
Brooke Monaghan (39:26):
That makes me incredibly happy to hear Kat,
but honestly, I don't know howmuch that came from.
I feel really lucky, I think inpart by the group of people
that we have.
I feel incredibly lucky for howthings played out because I
(39:47):
don't think that I I'm veryaware of it now because of the
experiences that I've had, but Idon't think that I was like
really particularly skilled,yeah, in doing that.
Katherine Sleadd (40:05):
But maybe that's where, like, coming back
to showing up authentically,yeah, but the risk, I think the
thing is, there's not aguarantee that goes with it.
So maybe, like I think I don'tlike the measure of luck, true,
but you show up authenticallyand that I think that there gets
to be a crossroads when we areencountering someone who's being
(40:26):
authentic, you know, like weget to like join them there or
we don't or we.
I think, I don't know I'm goingto get out in the weeds, but I
also think.
Brooke Monaghan (40:38):
Get in the weeds.
The weeds are great.
Katherine Sleadd (40:39):
The weeds okay , the weeds are great.
So if we, psycho ed point twoof the day, I think all of us
actually, like, deep down,really want authenticity because
we want to be known and we wantto also know and connect.
And we can't do that because ifwe're not being who we are.
(40:59):
There might be some sort offake connection.
And again, I'm not making avalue judgment.
It's just not satiating theplace in us that does need
connection for whatever purpose.
But like, if we come back tolike business, the vulnerability
of entrepreneurship, you likedamn, you're on the roller
(41:20):
coaster all the time, you know.
So the psycho ed piece of itbeing because we want that, if
we are not showing up for thatfor ourselves and we see someone
else doing it, the otherunconscious defense thing we'll
do is find a way to mar that,whether we diminish or we
(41:40):
undercut, we do something thatwill make that person that we
are and this is the function ofenvy, less enviable to us, so
that we feel safer.
And I see this happen a lot.
I would say I don't want togender things entirely but, like
(42:03):
in a white supremacist,capitalist society that men have
been privileged to be able tokind of go at it with each other
, and I don't know if I wouldn'tsay that that's necessarily
health.
But there is something to ourneed, our need to engage each
other in, in difference and inconflict and intention that
(42:25):
hasn't necessarily been affordedto anyone else.
Brooke Monaghan (42:28):
Yeah, it really is.
It's just been so interesting tome to kind of do my own healing
work around so much of thestuff that you talk about just
being able to show up fully inrelationships and know that like
real relationship, like exactlywhat you said, like real
relationship and growth andrelationship and knowing each
other comes through thatconflict.
(42:49):
It's being able to meet eachother in disagreement and being
able to do my work on that whileI've been in business and
leading people and runninggroups and all of that has been
fascinating to me because Irealize it's.
It actually has happened reallyrapidly for me where I can look
back on the ways that I thoughtabout things a few years ago and
(43:11):
be like, oh my gosh, you wereso confused, like you know that
was like you are so confusedabout what you're doing and
about how all this works andstuff and that's like that's
okay.
You know I have compassion formyself in that moment, but as I
witness this for myself and thenI look more at the space that
we're in, I see all of thesesetups that I do think reinforce
(43:35):
, of course, reinforce thisdynamic of like this is how
we're supposed to interact within relationships set up in
coaching relationships or indifferent programs or whatever,
especially programs that aresupposed to foster, like, deep
connection between people anddon't seem to acknowledge like,
(43:56):
but that actually like.
That actually sets up a dynamicwhere it's actually going to be
a lot harder for people to holdyou accountable to things or
speak up, because now there's anentire community around this
that they feel really attachedto and if that's not that,
there's a lot of responsibilitythat comes with that, I think or
at least we should understandwhat we're doing.
Katherine Sleadd (44:17):
Well, I think it's a fantasy.
We have a fantasy of communitythat a lot of us are working
with.
Like I mean, I don't know ifyour, your community is based on
the fact that you havecommunity.
I don't know that, like, theclique exists because people are
outside it.
Yes, so, and again it's likehow wonked our whole you know
world is.
(44:38):
I mean, I guess I shouldn'tgeneralize that much, but like
individualist mindset is thatthe fantasy of community is, is
not what it what it actually is.
Say more on that.
Well, I'm going to get out ofmy depth quickly.
But if you look at like, soI'll just say like read
(45:03):
indigenous authors.
There's popular book BraidingSweetgrass by Robin Wall
Kimmerer talking about, like,our relationship with community.
She doesn't talk about this,but so I'm going to relate it
back to her real quick.
Like we want to go out with ourfriends, we want to hang out,
we want to have fun, we want tolike collaborate, we want to
like there's always some sort oflike give and get in it.
(45:26):
Yeah, and I think there'shealth to that in that we want
to make sure that there'smutuality.
But like, where does that getdefined?
What do we do when we feel likewe're giving too much.
What do we feel?
What do we do with ourinsecurity
When we feel like we're notgiving enough and that's very
like exchange rate basis, like,again, unconsciously, I don't
think we're, we're not.
(45:46):
This isn't all like.
We're not like, okay, you, Ispent five minutes talking, you
spent five minutes talking, butthat's not.
We're not connected to thenatural world, we're not
connected to our community'sneeds.
A lot of our things like I thinkI mean my closest friends do
not live close to me, and sothere's ways that I'm also like
(46:06):
I'm not making a value judgmenton it, it's just noticing how
disconnected we are fromeverything else.
Our community groups are notmultifaceted.
We tend to be, you know, withinour own class socioeconomically
.
So we talk about community.
I think the particularity andthe focus is good to where you
(46:30):
could be around people where youhave enough similarity so that
you can have like a resonancethat will let you grow and
create that like inspiration andthe ability to support if that
makes sense.
But community as a whole is somuch wider than just being with
a group of people who are alldoing the same thing that you're
doing [brooke] yes, of courseyes yes [Katherine] so that's
(46:52):
the other.
So then, to come back to likethe Braiding Sweetgrass she
talks about, like this lake thatshe has, like by her house that
has become overgrown and haslike I don't think it was toxic,
but it was just like the wrongkind of algae was in it and it
was affected of like this wholething.
So it means it all out, and Ithink she has some neighbors
come and like there's just asense of a way of being that we
(47:16):
are so far from when it comes tocommunity that you know, that's
kind of where I think the widerpicture of it is.
If that makes sense, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (47:29):
Do you think, we're speculating it.
I'm asking you to speculate.
So what you say to this I'maccountable this I'm
responsible for this this, groupsetting you up for this.
[katherine] Okay, all right.
[Brooke] Okay.
What I'm thinking, though, islike so I'm hearing you say all
of this and I'm like yes, and ingroups that I've been a part of
, community spaces that I'vebeen in, and how terrifying it
(47:54):
can feel to be like Maybe Idon't you know what, if, if I do
this thing, does it mean thatI'm going to lose everybody here
?
Or if someone makes a judgmentabout me, is that going to
spread through this group ofpeople and then no one's going
to like me anymore, or no one'sgoing to want to be like my
friend anymore, or whatever?
(48:15):
I think about how strong thatfear of losing a group of people
is, and I wonder because thereason that I brought this up
was to kind of point to like, ifyou exist in these online quote
unquote, online communityspaces where you actually create
a sense of belonging withpeople and whatever, like I
think that you should giveyourself some, I think we should
all give ourselves some gracefor, and then those of us
(48:37):
running communities shouldreally pay attention to the
dynamics that play out.
I guess I wonder, with alleverything that you just said,
I'm like I wonder if the reason,if part of the reason that
things can feel so when we finda quote unquote online community
(48:59):
space where we're connected topeople.
If part of the reason that itfeels so like such a big deal is
in part because of the factthat many of us are lacking
actual community.
[Katherine] Yeah, oh yeah,[Brooke] and this like small,
this one little taste of it, yes, it's like charged, you know,
(49:22):
because it's like oh, oh my gosh, like what is this, you know?
Katherine Sleadd (49:28):
Well, I think actually what I haven't thought
of this literally until you'resaying it right now and my book,
you know kind of where I'mleading the reader is what
shaped your friendship dynamicsand the connection to your
attachment of family dynamicsand the ways that what you
didn't, what you didn't when youdon't recognize that you didn't
get what you needed.
(49:49):
Y ou go and look for that inother people.
Again, human good necessary.
How we heal, we need otherpeople like.
The moment that I figure outhow we don't like, you'll be the
first to know like I'm stilltrying to do it on my own.
Brooke Monaghan (50:04):
[Katherine] Okay?
committed.
Katherine Sleadd (50:07):
So, anyhow, sorry, yeah, I'm sorry.
Laughing at myself here.
Is that like these wounds fromour parents, like this
unconditional love wound, likewe're actually looking for
friends to love usunconditionally while not
(50:27):
actually simultaneously being onhook to do that for them.
Or vice versa, we're providingunconditional love for somebody
who actually has no interest inreturning it to us because
there's something off therewhere, like that isn't a need.
We're meant to meet with eachother but it's so charged
because we're finally seeingsomeone who is connecting and
accepting us for no reason otherthan they just like us.
And so if you, you know, youtell yourself that your mom
(50:52):
liked you, but deep down insideyou there's parts of you that
are like she didn't like me, youknow, then you meet someone who
does like you.
It's that charge.
So, to come back to your pointabout community, I think there's
that similar thing of like weare.
Really we have to.
I think we need to confront ourlack of community, the true
lack of it.
We do need to find it where wecan and notice how much of our
(51:16):
need for community we'reactually funneling into a place
that can't hold it.
Can't, and how do we sit withthat, our unmet needs.
How do we sit with that lack?
Well, together.
together, does that kind ofmake sense?
Brooke Monaghan (51:34):
Yes, it makes total sense.
I just keep taking very deepbreaths over here because you
keep saying things and I'm likeoh my gosh, so true.
I think this is going to be oneof those ones that people are
going to.
I would highly recommend are-listen.
I don't normally listen to mypodcast episodes after I put
them out, and this one I thinkI'm going to listen to because I
think that there's so much inwhat you're saying that I truly
(51:54):
am like I mean, if well, somepeople will see my face because
I am recording the video of thisbut I'm kind of like looking at
you, like every word that comesout of your mouth I'm like
uh-huh, and?
And what's the end of thestory, Kat?
And then what?
Like?
I just feel like you are justreally explaining some things
that are I'm slowly catching up.
Katherine Sleadd (52:17):
Well it's, I am Thanks, I'm glad to, but I
and also that's an again, if wetalk about difference and we
talk about connection andrelationship, I'm able to be
connected to my voice in thisconversation with you because
one, my body's settled and alsoyou're someone also connected to
your voice and you, you and Ihave similarities.
(52:39):
We also have differences and so, yeah, there's a cultivation of
what I'm able to say is atestament to questions you're
asking and conversation we'rehaving.
Brooke Monaghan (52:48):
Thanks, Kat.
ell, I think that you are trulyfucking brilliant.
I really do.
I am telling everybody that Imeet to read your book because,
again, I'm just like, oh my gosh, like I just am seeing it
everywhere and I think that it'sreally powerful.
And I also just, you know,there are few people who there's
(53:08):
not many people who fall intothis category.
Look, we're categorizing peoplenow.
There's not many people whofall into this category.
You squarely fall into thiscategory for me and a few other
peers of mine and people who Iknow, who.
I look at the work that you doand I truly am struck by how
seriously you take it and theintegrity that you do it with
(53:33):
and just the depth of it.
Like, your work is beyond youtrying to establish yourself and
it's beyond you trying to looksmart and it's beyond all of
those things that I don't thinka lot of people are like.
I don't think that that's themain driver for most people, but
it's clearly a huge driver forlots of folks.
(53:54):
And for you, one of the thingsthat I've just seen always be
non-negotiable for you is thatyou're thinking really, really
deeply and intentionally aboutwhat you're doing and that
you're showing up aligned withthat.
It's like an absolute core towhat I've witnessed and I just
honestly am honored to know youand I think that you're
brilliant.
Katherine Sleadd (54:13):
Thank you, I want to actually follow that up.
Thank you, I receive that.
I want to come back tosomething you said earlier that
I realized actually, like don'twant to leave this episode
without noting, because you saida few times and we actually
have a touch on it.
Like, what if you say the thingand you lose everyone?
What if you show up and itdoesn't work out?
Because there isn't, there isnot a formula.
(54:35):
I think there's ways we canfuck it up, there's ways we
could fuck it up and it couldstill work out.
Yeah, but are you going to showup or not with your own
authenticity, in difference andin conflict?
And does that mean you mightlose your community?
And I guess I wanted to comeback to that to say, yes, it
might mean that.
(54:55):
And it might mean thatrepeatedly, I continue to find
myself at those crossroads andI'm kind of realizing, oh, this
might be a lifelong thing, notthat I'll never belong, or not
that I'm maybe not repeatingsome patterns or things like
that and also like to take whatyou've just said and offer it to
(55:17):
the viewer.
It's humiliating to lose yourcommunity.
Because people then categorizeyou and make judgments about you
and, yes, the rumor mill stillworks yeah, it still works, and
I guess in whoever's listeninglike, will you continue to offer
yourself dignity, because I'vebeen repeatedly humiliated again
(55:40):
and again, and again, and Iwrote a book about it and one of
the things I think that hascome to make the most difference
is that I will offer myselfdignity and I will continue to
show up for myself with dignity,with honesty and authenticity
and looking at my own failures.
But you can offer yourselfdignity even if no one else will
, and you also don't have totake the risk, but I hope you do
(56:02):
.
Brooke Monaghan (56:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you're hearing this andyou're like, how?
Like, what are you talkingabout?
Kat has a practice and you canwork with Kat one on one, in
addition to reading the book,and I just I mean again,
everyone's heard me say it Ithink that you take the space
(56:24):
that you hold incrediblyseriously, and if anyone's
listening to this and thinkingthis is just earth shattering,
you should go and find Kat'swork.
I'm going to put all the linksin the show notes and all of
that.
Yeah, Kat, I am so gratefulthat we did this.
Thank you so much for beinghere this is fantastic.
Katherine Sleadd (56:46):
Thank you, thanks for the invitation.
So good to see you.
[Brooke] You too.
Whenever we're looking at change, we both want
it and don't want it, becausewe want security and we want
familiarity.
So then, if part of ourprofession is offering change to
people in their business, intheir lives, in their mental
health.
You're constantly walking thatline of push-pull.
Brooke Monaghan (00:29):
Welcome to another episode of Make Your
Business Work For You.
I have two new episodes for youtoday, and in this episode
you're going to hear aconversation between me and Kat
Sleadd, also known as KatherineSleadd.
I am just lucky enough to be ona nickname basis with Kat, so
you'll hear me say Katthroughout this episode.
(00:49):
Kat uses she and her pronouns,as you will hear.
Now may also be a great time tosay that I also use she and her
pronouns.
Did I say that at any point inthe last two episodes?
I don't remember, but let'sjust keep saying it.
I asked Kat to come on the showbecause for a while I have
wanted to do something with Kataround the concept of client
(01:10):
ghosting.
Let me say a little bit more.
Kat says in this episode thatshe has been in one of my
programs for a few years, so Ihave been lucky enough to have
her in my spaces.
There was a time where Kat cameoff mute to offer something to
somebody in the group andbasically shared: We need to
(01:33):
understand that if we are in thebusiness of offering people
transformation, we need tounderstand that people the
change is hard for people, right, and so when somebody says that
they want to work with you andthen they don't answer any of
your emails after that or whensomebody is working with you,
and then they kind of duck outof that work and either stop
(01:56):
coming back or say they need toend things suddenly, Kat brought
to light for me something thatonce I heard it, it felt so
obvious but it was reallypivotal at the time when I first
heard her talk about it, or atleast the way that she spoke
about it which was thatsometimes you've done everything
(02:17):
right in meeting this personand showing them how you could
help them move along, and it'sactually the fact that you have
shown them that you could carefor them in just the way that
they need to be cared for duringthat time, or you could help
them achieve the exacttransformation that they're
looking for at the time.
That could be the very thingthat makes that person pull away
(02:39):
because of the fact thatthey're being confronted with a
big change.
We talk about this, but we alsotalk about so much more in this
episode, just aroundrelationships and being in
disagreement and the way that wetend to categorize people, to
keep ourselves safe and decidethat there's good ones and bad
ones and all of that.
Before we get into this episode,I do want to mention a couple
of things.
Kat has a fantastic new bookcalled How to Be a Bad Friend.
(03:01):
Just as I asked Kat to come ontoday to give some context to
why clients might, or potentialclients might ghost Kat's book,
I think, does a really beautifuljob of illustrating some of the
context around failedfriendships, which is a really
tender subject for people, and,as I say in this episode, it's
(03:24):
about friendship, but it's alsoabout so much more.
It's really just aboutrelationships in general, so I'm
going to be linking to that inthe show notes.
The other couple of things thatI wanted to mention is that if
you have not already left arating and a review for the
podcast and you're enjoying it,please, please, do that in Apple
Podcasts.
It makes a huge difference andI really appreciate it.
Also, if you know somebody whowould enjoy the show or who
(03:47):
wants to submit questions forthe show, share the show with
them.
Head to joinfruition.
com, share that with them.
They can submit their questionsand get responses from one of
our expert contributors, whichwe have many of at this point.
Okay, let's get into today'sepisode.
I don't want to keep you toomuch longer.
I hope you enjoy.
(04:15):
I wanted to do something withyou for a long time around a few
of the topics that we're goingto talk about.
The first one was clientghosting, because this is a
thing that I've just been insituations where a thing has
happened and then you've kind ofbeen like would you be open to
some context on that?
(04:37):
And then you pop in and you justbreak the whole thing down in
such a way where I'm just likeholy shit, like it's so helpful
to know some of the things thatI've learned from you.
And so, you know, I think I justthrew it out there to you at
some point to be like we need todo something about client
(04:57):
ghosting at some point.
And then since then I'mactually glad that we waited,
because now I feel like I amseeing parallel.
I'm seeing things in my lifedaily that are so related to
your book, and not evennecessarily friendship things,
some friendship things but justrelationships in general and the
(05:20):
ways that I'm realizing I wastaught I was supposed to be in
relationships and how thatreally causes me to never
actually allow people to know me.
You know, so, yeah, so anyways,I kind of I wanted to actually
(05:44):
intentionally not be superprepared for this conversation
with you because I wanted toallow the beautiful thing that I
always see happen with you,which is I bring a thing up that
I'm like I think I see thisthing happening and you're like
actually, oh no, this is what Iknow.
Katherine Sleadd (06:00):
What's funny is people will tell me I've said
things that are like meaningfulto them and I just have no
memory meaning like I know thatI do talk a lot, but actually
don't talk a lot.
You actually don't talk a lot.
Brooke Monaghan (06:13):
You are the kind of person who's like very
quiet.
You actually remind me a lot ofwho I was when I was younger,
which is, you're very quiet, andthen, when you say something,
it's very clear to me that youhave been incredibly intentional
with what you were about to say.
At least that's how it seems tome.
(06:34):
It seems like you open yourmouth when you have something
really poignant to say, and onlywhen it is necessary to like,
insert yourself and it is justso.
Katherine Sleadd (06:43):
maybe we need to get drinks sometime then and
it will expand the narrative ofdefinitely do.
Yes.
Brooke Monaghan (06:53):
OK.
So I think I actually OK, let'sjust start with the client
ghosting, because we just get itoff, the we get we got to, we
got to make sure that thathappens.
So, something that I learnedfrom you is that when and I'm
going to put this in my termsand then I'm going to allow you
(07:14):
to come in and be like let meactually explain what's
happening here.
Something that I've learnedfrom you is that there's a thing
that can happen inrelationships with clients,
especially when you're in acoaching relationship or in some
kind of support role, where youmight think that seeing
(07:35):
somebody in like an initial callthat you have with them or in
any kind of call that you havewith them really seeing them and
really noticing like what it isthat they need that in that
moment, and just kind of goingin and being like here's what I
notice and here and offeringthat, you would think that that
would be like that was going toblow that person's mind and make
them be like you are the personthat I want to work with
(07:57):
forever and ever and ever, maybenot that much, but you know
some of it.
Katherine Sleadd (08:01):
I mean don't we?
Isn't that our fantasy, though?
Brooke Monaghan (08:04):
But that actually sometimes that has the
opposite effect, which is thatthat person kind of runs away
from it.
Katherine Sleadd (08:16):
Yeah, well, I think I remember this, where
what I?
I do remember what I said aboutthis, so maybe I'm like, OK,
I'll try to pull it back up.
But like I think sometimes youknow, whenever we're looking at
change, we both want it anddon't want it, Because we want
security and we want familiarity, and so then a part of our
profession is offering change topeople in their business, in
(08:39):
their lives, in their mentalhealth.
You're constantly walking thatline of like push, pull of, you
know you're inviting someone tosomething new and they're
seeking you because they wantsomething new.
And that's like the agreementand the structure and you know
(08:59):
you can be as clear as possibleabout it.
And I don't know, I think Iwant to say like sometimes that
just happens, you know.
Yeah, so that's just like thebaseline of it is we both want
change and we don't want change.
And so then if someone actuallydoes see that you would be a
great fit and then, for whateverreason, because because they're
(09:20):
now out of the picture.
We don't know why they left,but it seems common enough in
multiple across industries oflike a helping profession.
Brooke Monaghan (09:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's like really, I've justhad so many scenarios where
I've seen clients of mine reallyfeel devastated by the fact
that they thought they had thisconnection with a client and
then the client either said theywanted to work with them and
never responded to an emailagain or was in a program with
(09:52):
them or a relationship with themand literally just like stopped
.
Either stopped showing up anddidn't say anything or said you
know, actually I need to likeout of seemingly out of nowhere,
I need to end this or whatever.
And it makes so much sense onceI heard you kind of explain
(10:14):
that to be like, oh yeah, likethere's no way of knowing what
is going on for that person.
It's not like in every scenarioand that's not what we're
saying.
Like it's not like in everyscenario.
If somebody stops working withyou or doesn't respond to you,
it's because of this.
Katherine Sleadd (10:30):
Totally.
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (10:31):
But there's certainly situations where it's
not that you did anything wrong,it's not that you should have
whatever.
It's actually that like forthat person, they have their own
process and like they mightjust be in a place where they're
not actually ready to facewhatever kind of transformation
(10:52):
could come from what they mightsee being like almost a rapid
kind of thing that would comeabout from working with you or
from facing the things thatthey're recognizing they might
have to change to work with youor whatever, and being able to
point that out or notice it evenfor myself sometimes or even
have it as a possibility, notlike oh, that's what happened,
(11:14):
but be like, oh, it could havebeen this.
T o me is like, really, reallyhelpful.
Katherine Sleadd (11:21):
Yeah Well, because we get.
I mean, I feel like there's twoquestions here because there's
like ghosting of you know, and Ialso want to just put a
disclaimer in.
I don't have, I mean, do I likebeing ghosted?
Ab- so- fucking- lutely not.
Also, like I don't want to makeit a moral judgment, so, like
it's, I want to use it as a wordin this conversation.
(11:44):
So I'm just like hey, if anyoneout there has ghosted their
whoever, yes, it's a functionalword of like oh, you were gone
now suddenly without explanation.
But so there's two categorieshere.
You see, like the initial call,you know you're offering that
change and then you never hearfrom them again, even though you
(12:04):
think there's like this goodconnection and, like you're,
they're moving forward in theprocess, you feel like you're
both a good fit for each other.
And then there's the scenarioof you've been working with
somebody and then they justdon't show up to their calls
anymore or or whatever capacityof that.
Maybe they give you a littlebit of information, or they give
you information that you feelis out of nowhere, or no info
(12:27):
and just cancellation.
So I want to notice like thosefeel like a little bit different
categories, too, of likeexperiences.
But to come back to what yousaid, it's really vulnerable to
be in the work of change withpeople.
It's vulnerable to allowsomeone to help you in that like
.
It's vulnerable to show up forthat in yourself, like as a
(12:51):
client.
And it's also vulnerable as acoach or as a mentor, as you
know, a therapist or whateverother title in the person to
person field that we're talkingabout.
Because you care, you, you givea damn.
You wouldn't be in this workotherwise.
Yeah, so go ahead, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (13:13):
Oh no, I you know something was coming up as
you were talking, which is I'mreally glad that you said like
this isn't a moral judgment,because actually what it's done
for me has allowed me tounderstand why somebody might
it's not actually in someinstances, I'm not going to lie
it makes me feel better to thinkthat it's an option, that
(13:34):
that's what happened to be like.
Oh, maybe I was just so like.
You know, I just met them rightwhere they were and it was so
obvious to them what wouldhappen from working with me.
You know, of course I've gonethere, but actually what I think
it's allowed me to do is justhave some more, leave some space
(13:55):
for different people'sprocesses to be different and
not make it about me, which isso important and I think really
gets lost in coaching spaces,where it's very focused on
training.
It's very focused ontransformation and results,
because what you're supposed todo as a coach is you're supposed
(14:16):
to be able to say this is whatI do for clients, this is where
I get you and you're supposed tobe able to walk them through,
bring them through a process,and that's where they land and
that means that you did a goodjob.
And what gets lost in that isthat that doesn't account for
not just different circumstances.
(14:36):
I think we talk sometimes aboutdifferent circumstances, people
having different financialcircumstances or different lived
experiences that's certainly apart of it but also, just like
their inner landscape of whatthey're actually going through
when they go through change andhow
if we make it about us and theresults that we get people too,
we are in danger of losing thepart where it just might take
(15:03):
people a different route to get,or a different amount of time
to get, where they're going togo.
And this is something thatNicole Lewis-Keeber, who is a
therapist and works on traumaand entrepreneurship and is
going to be on the show at somepoint, was telling me when we
did an interview for my lastshow.
She had said something aboutsometimes she's working with
(15:26):
coaches and they're reallyfrustrated by a certain client
because they're not progressingin the way that they would like
to see them progress.
And she was like you actuallycan't force somebody.
Not only is there often justnothing, it's not within your
power.
But if you try to forcesomebody to experience a change,
(15:48):
to work within your timeline,to make you a good coach, you're
actually like trampling over,like their experience and how
they deal with things and theirprocess, and this, to me, nests
into that.
Katherine Sleadd (16:03):
Yeah, totally Well, I think about the idea of
what are the maybe common waysthat we deal with being ghosted
as a coach.
What's the story that we aretelling ourselves?
Are we telling ourselves we area failure?
Or I will tend to run throughmy own like gosh, what could I
(16:26):
have done better?
And I think there's like that'sdefinitely healthy, like you
need to have ability to look athow you, why there was a sudden
disconnect and what you did thatcontributed to that, not just
for the future of your business,but also just for your
continued work with whoeveryou're going to sit with.
(16:46):
I mean, it's sorry, lost my owntrain of thought, but the
frustration aspect and thestuckness I wonder if that comes
as like a common theme forpeople when they find a sudden
ending with a client, becauseyeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know
if you want to jump in there.
Brooke Monaghan (17:07):
Yeah, no, I think that in the conversation
that I was having about thatwith Nicole, it was kind of like
and I guess I'm drawing aparallel it's like sometimes
it's and I've seen, I've watchedcoaches do this where they see
a client kind of I'm going touse really what I would not
(17:29):
terminology that I wouldactually use, but the way that I
see people thinking about it,like this client bailed out
right at the part where thingswere going to get hard because
they just didn't want to do thework.
Um, or this client just isn'tprogressing in the way that they
could be and it's sofrustrating because they're just
(17:50):
not taking action.
Yeah, why did you oof?
Katherine Sleadd (17:56):
I just think about how much easier it is for
us to accuse ourselves or otherpeople when we are going through
something painful.
Brooke Monaghan (18:07):
Yes, thank you.
And so I think that thisconversation about what someone
might be experiencing that wouldmake them maybe decide,
sometimes not even consciously.
I mean we have so much shitgoing on, I have so many emails
Like there is no way that I havenot left somebody hanging over
(18:29):
the past few months and I justcan't remember it because I just
the communication is constantand so it's not even always
conscious.
It might just be that somebodyis like they saw this, it was a
lot, you go back to your life.
And having this conversationwith you about why this might
(18:52):
happen to me leaves so muchspace for us to just open things
up a little bit and be like, ohokay, maybe it wasn't actually
that anyone did anything wrongnecessarily.
Katherine Sleadd (19:06):
[Katherine Sleadd] Yeah, yeah, like
breathing room for the suddenendings of things, and like that
also sounds like reallyliberating, you know, as
somebody who is working withpeople vulnerably, from that
side of you know, offering thesupport and the care you know.
I think that you would probablyagree with me.
(19:29):
Most of the people that youwork with are probably a little
bit harder on themselves.
Like that would lean towardsskew, towards that side, less
towards the side of like oh,they weren't just ready, or
whatever.
Yes, like they're going to takeit all on and we actually won't
be able to show up well andauthentically if we're not
honestly looking at whathappened and if it was just
(19:50):
they're going back to their life.
You looked at it and in one earout the other, like moving on,
like from an initial call oreven you know, somewhere in the
middle like something else thatin their landscape, as you said,
is like disrupting in the wayor whatever, and there's not an
ability for them to communicatethat and actually has nothing to
(20:11):
do with you.
Yeah, like what are we?
How can we have a little bitmore relief for ourselves?
Because I mean, gosh, it sucks,especially when you're self
employed too.
Like, that's the nature of it.
Brooke Monaghan (20:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So, as we're talking about this, something that I am also like
seeing a parallel to, and Ithink that this is something
that I mean ghosting isdefinitely something that you
talk about in your book, butthere's and this is really the
reason why I wanted to make surethat we talk because, like I
(20:48):
was saying, I mean I just see somany relational dynamics play
out that I'm just like, oh, likeit's like 17 times a day.
I'm like, oh, how to be a badfriend.
Oh, how to be a bad friend.
Oh, like I just see iteverywhere now.
And I think that part of thatis because in my own therapy,
I'm just really working on likebeing more authentic with people
and, and just learning myselftoo.
(21:08):
And something that you pointout and that I really love about
your work and that I think wesee happen in the scenario that
we were just talking about, andwe also see it happen just in
general in the businessdevelopment space, is how quick
we are to just put people incategories.
Katherine Sleadd (21:31):
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (21:34):
You know, like if you have a call with a client
, a potential client, and thenthey don't they say they want to
work with you and then theydon't it can be really self
protective and make you feelbetter to be like, well, that
person just doesn't want to dothe work, or that person has
some shit to deal with, orwhatever.
Katherine Sleadd (21:51):
Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (21:52):
Whether that's true or not is just like the
tone of it, even like it wasn't.
It wasn't me, it was them,because it has to be somebody
right?
Like somebody always has to belike at fault or like the you
know the wrong one, the bad one,whatever.
And then also what happens whenwe look, because I very much
(22:14):
believe that, like we need toopen some space for different
people to do businessdifferently.
But there's also a thing thathappens in that where you could
see somebody do a thing that youdon't agree with and suddenly
they're in the unethicalcategory, which is not to say
that people don't do fucked upshit, but it is to say that just
(22:36):
because somebody is doingsomething differently than maybe
how you would do things, Idon't know that we need to draw
these clear distinctions betweenthe people who are doing
business in a good way and thepeople who are doing business in
a bad way.
Or I thought this person wasgood and then I found out they
were bad, sort of.
(22:58):
And I guess I'm just wondering,like I don't know, as I say that
, like, is there anything that'slike popping up?
Is there anything that's likepopping up for you that you're
like oh my God, you have so muchto say, I already know.
I just need to shut up.
Katherine Sleadd (23:09):
No, no, I love , no, I love more context and
building it out, because youknow, this is like a, a I don't
know a buffet of like fun, funtopics to go over.
So I'm like I move my hair outof the way, I'm like, okay, I'm
like, do we want like a littlelike?
And now I feel like we shouldhave a theme song, like a little
fun moment for psycho-e d.
(23:30):
I am obsessed with psychoanalysis and it's like you know
not just from getting my degreelike I would read those books as
a hobby, because that's how youcan then go down a rabbit hole
of what's wrong with me.
Um, but, like, what a shameshe's fucked in the head.
There's our first Taylor quoteof the day Um, so I think what
(23:53):
you've just illustrated there iswe put people in these
categories of good and bad, andessentially what that is is it's
an unconscious defensestructure.
So we always have somewhere togo so that we can be protected
from the uncertainty of nuance,and it's like a very human thing
to do.
So we're not bad if we do it.
We don't need to stop trying todo it.
(24:15):
But how can we actually bringit forward into our awareness so
we can noticewe're doing it and then we get
to make the choice about, we getto make value judgments and
statements about people, but wealso get to understand why we're
doing that.
Are we doing it to protectourselves or do we actually need
to do it so that we are actingin integrity and appropriately
(24:35):
evaluating the situation?
So splitting is a function ofthe mind that we Um have as an
unconscious defense structure,so it and that we won't.
And by that I mean and this iswhere, like even even in saying
this, I'm like I still don'tbelieve it's true Um, like it's
(24:58):
unconscious.
So again we don't fucking knowthat we're doing it when we're
doing it no matter what.
So if we can see ourselves whenwe are like, oh, I put these in
categories.
Or oh, I'm saying like, well,they just had shit to do.
Or or I'm telling myself, I'mjust, I'm actually terrible at
this and I don't, who do I, whodo I think I am?
(25:19):
Like you might look back atthat like, oh wow, this morning
I was, I was splitting, I wasputting things in this black and
white space because I need tobe safe.
Yeah, and then do I need to dothat to be safe?
No, I can actually work withwhat's happened here with some
more space.
(25:41):
W ith some more freedom forinterpretation, with some more
curiosity towards myself,curiosity towards the other, and
then actually will find you'llfind newness there and more data
than you would otherwise, doesthat make sense?
Brooke Monaghan (25:55):
makes total sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense.
And, as you're saying that I'mjust kind of going back into
like so I recently had anexperience where I was seeing a
person who I really deeplyrespect do something that I was
(26:16):
like, okay, I really reallyrespect this person and I know
that they would never intend todo what I see they're doing
right now.
And it was one of the firsttimes.
True, I am 33.
This is like embarrassing withthis is one of the first times,
but it is truly one of the firsttimes.
[Katherine] I disagree butcontinue.
[Brooke] thank you, truly oneof the first times that I was
(26:40):
able to go oh, wow, this personwho I have so much respect for,
who I know is so skilled at whatthey do and who would never
want to do this intentionally,is doing this, and I don't have
to choose between shutting upand being okay with it or
(27:05):
putting them in the category ofoh, you're not who I thought you
were.
I'm out.
And that middle ground of I'mgoing to maintain space for the
respect and for the benefit ofthe doubt and for the compassion
that I have for you and forknowing that you actually are
(27:27):
deeply skilled, and also for thefact that in this moment,
you're doing a thing that is notactually an integrity and I
have to say something because Icare about this relationship and
because I want to be here isnot something that I, at least
and I don't think most peoplewere ever taught how to do.
Katherine Sleadd (27:46):
You know, we weren't.
In fact, we were activelyconditioned and taught not to do
it.
Brooke Monaghan (27:52):
Yeah.
Katherine Sleadd (27:55):
I mean, that's my other like favorite book
that I found towards the end ofmy process of writing How to Be
a Bad Friend, but it was justresearch done on adolescent
girls in the 90s, published, bythe way, by the same, if you're
a fan of Women Who Run with theWolves, I feel like that's a lot
of people love that book.
It's published by the samedivision of publishing house and
(28:18):
in the same year.
ca ll them like sisters,they're actually sitting on my
desk right now, but the book'scalled Meeting at the Crossroads
and it's just about how girlsare taught that they cannot have
open And.
nd you have to silence yourself, but actually the place where,
literally, we develop our voice.
and our capacity for our ownidentity and our ability to
(28:40):
express and communicate that isonly happens in conflict.
If you think about it, makessense, because conflict is where
two people do not agree andtherefore you have one point of
view and another point of view,and then if you have two same
points of view, then that's,that's also fine.
But like there's no uniquenessthere, it's homogenous
(29:02):
essentially.
Brooke Monaghan (29:03):
Yes.
Katherine Sleadd (29:04):
So you can't actually develop yourself
without difference.
And then to your point, though,to step into this middle space
of not going okay, I thought youwere good and you're actually
not or like just shuttingyourself away, is it's a huge
risk because of all of thissocietal conditioning that to
(29:31):
address a problem means you thenbecome the problem, as opposed
to there being separate things.
So good on you.
Brooke Monaghan (29:40):
I'm sitting here like smiling, with my eyes
closed, because my only othercall of the day so far was
therapy.
Katherine Sleadd (29:48):
Oh hey.
Brooke Monaghan (29:49):
And do you want to know what I opened therapy
with today?
Katherine Sleadd (29:54):
Oh, absolutely .
Brooke Monaghan (29:57):
I was talking about the situation that I just
told you about my.
I had told my therapist aboutthis situation because it was
just not because it was a hugedeal actually, but because it
was a big deal for me because ofthe fact that I was exploring
that, oh, I really have atendency to think that my only
options are to shut myself downor cut this person off.
It just it's a big deal for meand it did feel like a huge risk
(30:24):
.
And it is a huge risk.
I think that we have a tendencyto be like you're going to do
the right thing and theneverything is going to work out,
because actually, you might besurprised to hear how people are
going to respond to you, whichis just a way to be like oh no,
it's actually all you, if youjust handle things differently,
right?
That's actually not true, likeif you decide that you're going
to handle things very, you haveno idea how the person is going
(30:44):
to respond and it was incrediblyrisky and it was incredibly
emotional for me Because, again,not a huge deal externally, but
a huge deal for me, and I saidto my therapist today I go okay.
So we got past that thing andnow I just keep bumping up
against.
Why did you have to be sodifficult?
That's, the new story is likethat didn't really change all of
(31:09):
that much to have thatconversation.
So why did you have to bring itup then?
Why be so difficult?
You're just difficult, yeah.
And so when you were saying,you know, when you bring it up,
it makes you the problem, I waslike, oh, that's, and that's
what I'm doing to myself.
No one's doing that to me.
I'm doing that to myself.
In situations, people do dothat to people.
In this situation, I was luckyenough that the person did not
(31:32):
do that to me and actually wasvery gracious in the way that
they accepted it.
But and I'm doing it to myself,probably because of the ways
that it actually was done to meso many times before but yeah,
that was going to say there'sthe, that wiring is like that's.
Katherine Sleadd (31:48):
That's from something, somewhere, yeah, yeah
.
Brooke Monaghan (31:52):
Yeah, I know exactly where that's from.
But yeah, there you go.
It's not, you know, that's.
That's what the first hour oftoday was for.
Katherine Sleadd (31:59):
Well, but I think to the point of like
stepping into that mental space.
You're not, you're alsorewriting you know, however many
stories you have been made tobe the problem for bringing up
the fact that there is a problem, yeah, so and so, in a sense,
like when you say not a lotchanged.
(32:19):
Like actually, like a lot didchange because you showed up for
you, for you, and thisrelationship and whatever
setting, like that of the issuebeing addressed.
But then if it has this likedomino effect of where you know,
(32:40):
I think it's like easier to.
It feels a little gaslightysometimes to me because of all
the times I've spoken up aboutproblems and then it's not gone
well, and still believing itmatters for my own sake and my
own story and my own voice andwhatever I'm speaking up about,
(33:02):
whoever that impacts.
But also like there's somethinggoing on that we can't see.
Like it's, it's changing alarger narrative to do this.
Brooke Monaghan (33:15):
Yeah, and and I think that to be, I guess, to
kind of like put a point on thisit's like the reason that I
really, really wanted to havethis conversation with you as
one of the first episodes ofthis new show is because at
least what I've learned formyself and I would love to hear
if you have thoughts on that,and I would love to hear if you
have thoughts on this is that Ineed, need, really needed to
(33:43):
learn how to, in learning how togive people some amount of
grace, in holding themaccountable to things and doing
both, like being in the both andand in that middle space.
I've also learned how to dothat for me, like they're,
they're so like tied up in eachother, right, like the thing,
(34:06):
the standards that I put myself,I'm casting on other people,
the way that I'm interactingwith other people, or that's
ultimately like one of thestandards that I'm putting on me
.
And when we talk about thisconcept of make your business
work for you, or do business ina way that works for you, and
we're existing in this spacewhere there are so many
judgments being cast all thetime about the right way to do
(34:29):
business and the wrong way to dobusiness work.
This person is unethicalbecause of this, this person's
slimy because of that.
So again, sometimes they are.
But sometimes it's like we needto learn how to look at other
people and understand theremight be a million things going
on that you know nothing aboutthat inform why that person's
(34:50):
doing that and in and likewise,you might decide for yourself to
do things in a very differentway from how the quote unquote
good ones told you to do it, andI want that for people like I
want people to be able to leaninto themselves a bit more and
be like I'm going to kind ofinvent my own way of going about
(35:13):
this without feeling like thereare these clear categories that
I need to kind of like exist inor I don't need.
I said that to put a point onit and I totally didn't put a
point on it.
Katherine Sleadd (35:22):
But yeah, I think you did.
I'll field it back.
I like as if we kind of mayberound out the client ghosting.
What I hear you saying isactually like you had this
opportunity to ghost is, inessence, either ghost yourself
by disavowing your experienceand staying in [brooke] oh my
God, self ghosting, holy shit.
[katherine] And and something Isay about, like our experience
(35:46):
is, nothing is going to changeunless your experience matters.
So it's one of the big notyou're not making it the focus
of everything, but it isimportant data that if you're
not listening to it, you'regoing nowhere.
So you could ghost yourself oryou could ghost the person you
know that is in the scenarioyou're talking about, and you
didn't.
And you, you showed up in themiddle space.
(36:07):
I think that there's two thingsabout that.
Like, when you are ghosted by aclient, there's some breakdown
in communication that hashappened and maybe that's all on
them.
Maybe you've created thecontainer where actually you do
need to actually be real honestwith yourself to say, like
actually I have created a goodcontainer here and I'm just not
going to know what happens, butI'm not going to participate in
(36:30):
accusing myself or accusing themand sit with that, sit with the
discomfort of that.
Yeah, but there's an M, there'sa middle space there where now
nothing will be unless somehowthey come back around.
Essentially.
So, to come back to what you'resaying, you, you showed up in
that middle space, and I thinkthe second thing that that also
(36:50):
does is it makes it more painfulthan if you're ever left there,
because if you took a chance onit, why won't somebody else?
Brooke Monaghan (36:59):
Yeah, so yeah, it's really.
Yeah, I was, I was hanging therefor a minute and I was like a
mess, but again it's like yeah,yeah, I don't know.
(37:20):
I think I said everything that Iwas going to say on it.
The other thing that I think Iwanted to pull into this
conversation is when okay, soputting it in those terms of
when you're in a situation whereyou could either ghost yourself
or ghost that person, or youcould show up in the middle and
(37:44):
what it feels like to not be metthere there's a thing that is
at risk there, which is not justthe relationship with that
person, but potentially yourentire shared community, and I
know that community loss issomething that you talk a lot
(38:06):
about, that you've experienced,and I think that it would be
really helpful to have aconversation about this, because
so many of the supportprogramming for small business
owners including my own, by theway is in groups, and I don't
(38:26):
know that people give themselvesenough credit for how risky it
can feel to show up as yourselfwhen you're in a space where it
feels like you have created a,you belong with this group of
people, and if you show upauthentically as yourself or if
you show up in that middle spacewith somebody in that group.
(38:49):
What could potentially happen ifeveryone thinks a thing about
you and now you lose your wholefucking community?
That's like a huge deal andit's playing out in support
spaces in the business world.
Katherine Sleadd (39:03):
Yeah, it is.
I mean, I guess you would havean eye on that, but as somebody
that's been with your group forthree years, I will say I'm
sitting here going like so whatdo you think the magic sauce is,
Brooke, because this is likeyou cultivate community that
I've been a part of and feltable to show up authentically
(39:24):
and been able to do a lotbecause of that.
Brooke Monaghan (39:26):
That makes me incredibly happy to hear Kat,
but honestly, I don't know howmuch that came from.
I feel really lucky, I think inpart by the group of people
that we have.
I feel incredibly lucky for howthings played out because I
(39:47):
don't think that I I'm veryaware of it now because of the
experiences that I've had, but Idon't think that I was like
really particularly skilled,yeah, in doing that.
Katherine Sleadd (40:05):
But maybe that's where, like, coming back
to showing up authentically,yeah, but the risk, I think the
thing is, there's not aguarantee that goes with it.
So maybe, like I think I don'tlike the measure of luck, true,
but you show up authenticallyand that I think that there gets
to be a crossroads when we areencountering someone who's being
(40:26):
authentic, you know, like weget to like join them there or
we don't or we.
I think, I don't know I'm goingto get out in the weeds, but I
also think.
Brooke Monaghan (40:38):
Get in the weeds.
The weeds are great.
Katherine Sleadd (40:39):
The weeds okay , the weeds are great.
So if we, psycho ed point twoof the day, I think all of us
actually, like, deep down,really want authenticity because
we want to be known and we wantto also know and connect.
And we can't do that because ifwe're not being who we are.
(40:59):
There might be some sort offake connection.
And again, I'm not making avalue judgment.
It's just not satiating theplace in us that does need
connection for whatever purpose.
But like, if we come back tolike business, the vulnerability
of entrepreneurship, you likedamn, you're on the roller
(41:20):
coaster all the time, you know.
So the psycho ed piece of itbeing because we want that, if
we are not showing up for thatfor ourselves and we see someone
else doing it, the otherunconscious defense thing we'll
do is find a way to mar that,whether we diminish or we
(41:40):
undercut, we do something thatwill make that person that we
are and this is the function ofenvy, less enviable to us, so
that we feel safer.
And I see this happen a lot.
I would say I don't want togender things entirely but, like
(42:03):
in a white supremacist,capitalist society that men have
been privileged to be able tokind of go at it with each other
, and I don't know if I wouldn'tsay that that's necessarily
health.
But there is something to ourneed, our need to engage each
other in, in difference and inconflict and intention that
(42:25):
hasn't necessarily been affordedto anyone else.
Brooke Monaghan (42:28):
Yeah, it really is.
It's just been so interesting tome to kind of do my own healing
work around so much of thestuff that you talk about just
being able to show up fully inrelationships and know that like
real relationship, like exactlywhat you said, like real
relationship and growth andrelationship and knowing each
other comes through thatconflict.
(42:49):
It's being able to meet eachother in disagreement and being
able to do my work on that whileI've been in business and
leading people and runninggroups and all of that has been
fascinating to me because Irealize it's.
It actually has happened reallyrapidly for me where I can look
back on the ways that I thoughtabout things a few years ago and
(43:11):
be like, oh my gosh, you wereso confused, like you know that
was like you are so confusedabout what you're doing and
about how all this works andstuff and that's like that's
okay.
You know I have compassion formyself in that moment, but as I
witness this for myself and thenI look more at the space that
we're in, I see all of thesesetups that I do think reinforce
(43:35):
, of course, reinforce thisdynamic of like this is how
we're supposed to interact within relationships set up in
coaching relationships or indifferent programs or whatever,
especially programs that aresupposed to foster, like, deep
connection between people anddon't seem to acknowledge like,
(43:56):
but that actually like.
That actually sets up a dynamicwhere it's actually going to be
a lot harder for people to holdyou accountable to things or
speak up, because now there's anentire community around this
that they feel really attachedto and if that's not that,
there's a lot of responsibilitythat comes with that, I think or
at least we should understandwhat we're doing.
Katherine Sleadd (44:17):
Well, I think it's a fantasy.
We have a fantasy of communitythat a lot of us are working
with.
Like I mean, I don't know ifyour, your community is based on
the fact that you havecommunity.
I don't know that, like, theclique exists because people are
outside it.
Yes, so, and again it's likehow wonked our whole you know
world is.
(44:38):
I mean, I guess I shouldn'tgeneralize that much, but like
individualist mindset is thatthe fantasy of community is, is
not what it what it actually is.
Say more on that.
Well, I'm going to get out ofmy depth quickly.
But if you look at like, soI'll just say like read
(45:03):
indigenous authors.
There's popular book BraidingSweetgrass by Robin Wall
Kimmerer talking about, like,our relationship with community.
She doesn't talk about this,but so I'm going to relate it
back to her real quick.
Like we want to go out with ourfriends, we want to hang out,
we want to have fun, we want tolike collaborate, we want to
like there's always some sort oflike give and get in it.
(45:26):
Yeah, and I think there'shealth to that in that we want
to make sure that there'smutuality.
But like, where does that getdefined?
What do we do when we feel likewe're giving too much.
What do we feel?
What do we do with ourinsecurity
When we feel like we're notgiving enough and that's very
like exchange rate basis, like,again, unconsciously, I don't
think we're, we're not.
(45:46):
This isn't all like.
We're not like, okay, you, Ispent five minutes talking, you
spent five minutes talking, butthat's not.
We're not connected to thenatural world, we're not
connected to our community'sneeds.
A lot of our things like I thinkI mean my closest friends do
not live close to me, and sothere's ways that I'm also like
(46:06):
I'm not making a value judgmenton it, it's just noticing how
disconnected we are fromeverything else.
Our community groups are notmultifaceted.
We tend to be, you know, withinour own class socioeconomically
.
So we talk about community.
I think the particularity andthe focus is good to where you
(46:30):
could be around people where youhave enough similarity so that
you can have like a resonancethat will let you grow and
create that like inspiration andthe ability to support if that
makes sense.
But community as a whole is somuch wider than just being with
a group of people who are alldoing the same thing that you're
doing [brooke] yes, of courseyes yes [Katherine] so that's
(46:52):
the other.
So then, to come back to likethe Braiding Sweetgrass she
talks about, like this lake thatshe has, like by her house that
has become overgrown and haslike I don't think it was toxic,
but it was just like the wrongkind of algae was in it and it
was affected of like this wholething.
So it means it all out, and Ithink she has some neighbors
come and like there's just asense of a way of being that we
(47:16):
are so far from when it comes tocommunity that you know, that's
kind of where I think the widerpicture of it is.
If that makes sense, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (47:29):
Do you think, we're speculating it.
I'm asking you to speculate.
So what you say to this I'maccountable this I'm
responsible for this this, groupsetting you up for this.
[katherine] Okay, all right.
[Brooke] Okay.
What I'm thinking, though, islike so I'm hearing you say all
of this and I'm like yes, and ingroups that I've been a part of
, community spaces that I'vebeen in, and how terrifying it
(47:54):
can feel to be like Maybe Idon't you know what, if, if I do
this thing, does it mean thatI'm going to lose everybody here
?
Or if someone makes a judgmentabout me, is that going to
spread through this group ofpeople and then no one's going
to like me anymore, or no one'sgoing to want to be like my
friend anymore, or whatever?
(48:15):
I think about how strong thatfear of losing a group of people
is, and I wonder because thereason that I brought this up
was to kind of point to like, ifyou exist in these online quote
unquote, online communityspaces where you actually create
a sense of belonging withpeople and whatever, like I
think that you should giveyourself some, I think we should
all give ourselves some gracefor, and then those of us
(48:37):
running communities shouldreally pay attention to the
dynamics that play out.
I guess I wonder, with alleverything that you just said,
I'm like I wonder if the reason,if part of the reason that
things can feel so when we finda quote unquote online community
(48:59):
space where we're connected topeople.
If part of the reason that itfeels so like such a big deal is
in part because of the factthat many of us are lacking
actual community.
[Katherine] Yeah, oh yeah,[Brooke] and this like small,
this one little taste of it, yes, it's like charged, you know,
(49:22):
because it's like oh, oh my gosh, like what is this, you know?
Katherine Sleadd (49:28):
Well, I think actually what I haven't thought
of this literally until you'resaying it right now and my book,
you know kind of where I'mleading the reader is what
shaped your friendship dynamicsand the connection to your
attachment of family dynamicsand the ways that what you
didn't, what you didn't when youdon't recognize that you didn't
get what you needed.
(49:49):
Y ou go and look for that inother people.
Again, human good necessary.
How we heal, we need otherpeople like.
The moment that I figure outhow we don't like, you'll be the
first to know like I'm stilltrying to do it on my own.
Brooke Monaghan (50:04):
[Katherine] Okay?
committed.
Katherine Sleadd (50:07):
So, anyhow, sorry, yeah, I'm sorry.
Laughing at myself here.
Is that like these wounds fromour parents, like this
unconditional love wound, likewe're actually looking for
friends to love usunconditionally while not
(50:27):
actually simultaneously being onhook to do that for them.
Or vice versa, we're providingunconditional love for somebody
who actually has no interest inreturning it to us because
there's something off therewhere, like that isn't a need.
We're meant to meet with eachother but it's so charged
because we're finally seeingsomeone who is connecting and
accepting us for no reason otherthan they just like us.
And so if you, you know, youtell yourself that your mom
(50:52):
liked you, but deep down insideyou there's parts of you that
are like she didn't like me, youknow, then you meet someone who
does like you.
It's that charge.
So, to come back to your pointabout community, I think there's
that similar thing of like weare.
Really we have to.
I think we need to confront ourlack of community, the true
lack of it.
We do need to find it where wecan and notice how much of our
(51:16):
need for community we'reactually funneling into a place
that can't hold it.
Can't, and how do we sit withthat, our unmet needs.
How do we sit with that lack?
Well, together.
together, does that kind ofmake sense?
Brooke Monaghan (51:34):
Yes, it makes total sense.
I just keep taking very deepbreaths over here because you
keep saying things and I'm likeoh my gosh, so true.
I think this is going to be oneof those ones that people are
going to.
I would highly recommend are-listen.
I don't normally listen to mypodcast episodes after I put
them out, and this one I thinkI'm going to listen to because I
think that there's so much inwhat you're saying that I truly
(51:54):
am like I mean, if well, somepeople will see my face because
I am recording the video of thisbut I'm kind of like looking at
you, like every word that comesout of your mouth I'm like
uh-huh, and?
And what's the end of thestory, Kat?
And then what?
Like?
I just feel like you are justreally explaining some things
that are I'm slowly catching up.
Katherine Sleadd (52:17):
Well it's, I am Thanks, I'm glad to, but I
and also that's an again, if wetalk about difference and we
talk about connection andrelationship, I'm able to be
connected to my voice in thisconversation with you because
one, my body's settled and alsoyou're someone also connected to
your voice and you, you and Ihave similarities.
(52:39):
We also have differences and so, yeah, there's a cultivation of
what I'm able to say is atestament to questions you're
asking and conversation we'rehaving.
Brooke Monaghan (52:48):
Thanks, Kat.
ell, I think that you are trulyfucking brilliant.
I really do.
I am telling everybody that Imeet to read your book because,
again, I'm just like, oh my gosh, like I just am seeing it
everywhere and I think that it'sreally powerful.
And I also just, you know,there are few people who there's
(53:08):
not many people who fall intothis category.
Look, we're categorizing peoplenow.
There's not many people whofall into this category.
You squarely fall into thiscategory for me and a few other
peers of mine and people who Iknow, who.
I look at the work that you doand I truly am struck by how
seriously you take it and theintegrity that you do it with
(53:33):
and just the depth of it.
Like, your work is beyond youtrying to establish yourself and
it's beyond you trying to looksmart and it's beyond all of
those things that I don't thinka lot of people are like.
I don't think that that's themain driver for most people, but
it's clearly a huge driver forlots of folks.
(53:54):
And for you, one of the thingsthat I've just seen always be
non-negotiable for you is thatyou're thinking really, really
deeply and intentionally aboutwhat you're doing and that
you're showing up aligned withthat.
It's like an absolute core towhat I've witnessed and I just
honestly am honored to know youand I think that you're
brilliant.
Katherine Sleadd (54:13):
Thank you, I want to actually follow that up.
Thank you, I receive that.
I want to come back tosomething you said earlier that
I realized actually, like don'twant to leave this episode
without noting, because you saida few times and we actually
have a touch on it.
Like, what if you say the thingand you lose everyone?
What if you show up and itdoesn't work out?
Because there isn't, there isnot a formula.
(54:35):
I think there's ways we canfuck it up, there's ways we
could fuck it up and it couldstill work out.
Yeah, but are you going to showup or not with your own
authenticity, in difference andin conflict?
And does that mean you mightlose your community?
And I guess I wanted to comeback to that to say, yes, it
might mean that.
(54:55):
And it might mean thatrepeatedly, I continue to find
myself at those crossroads andI'm kind of realizing, oh, this
might be a lifelong thing, notthat I'll never belong, or not
that I'm maybe not repeatingsome patterns or things like
that and also like to take whatyou've just said and offer it to
(55:17):
the viewer.
It's humiliating to lose yourcommunity.
Because people then categorizeyou and make judgments about you
and, yes, the rumor mill stillworks yeah, it still works, and
I guess in whoever's listeninglike, will you continue to offer
yourself dignity, because I'vebeen repeatedly humiliated again
(55:40):
and again, and again, and Iwrote a book about it and one of
the things I think that hascome to make the most difference
is that I will offer myselfdignity and I will continue to
show up for myself with dignity,with honesty and authenticity
and looking at my own failures.
But you can offer yourselfdignity even if no one else will
, and you also don't have totake the risk, but I hope you do
(56:02):
.
Brooke Monaghan (56:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you're hearing this andyou're like, how?
Like, what are you talkingabout?
Kat has a practice and you canwork with Kat one on one, in
addition to reading the book,and I just I mean again,
everyone's heard me say it Ithink that you take the space
(56:24):
that you hold incrediblyseriously, and if anyone's
listening to this and thinkingthis is just earth shattering,
you should go and find Kat'swork.
I'm going to put all the linksin the show notes and all of
that.
Yeah, Kat, I am so gratefulthat we did this.
Thank you so much for beinghere this is fantastic.
Katherine Sleadd (56:46):
Thank you, thanks for the invitation.
So good to see you.
[Brooke] You too.
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