Episode Transcript
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Tanya Geisler (00:00):
The imposter
complex wants to keep you out of
action, it wants to have youdoubt your capacity and it wants
to keep you alone and isolated.
Brooke Monaghan (00:18):
Welcome to
another episode of Make your
Business Work For you.
This is our first episode withone of our expert contributors
where it's not really a Q&A,it's more of a conversation
about their area of expertise.
We have so far, at the timethat I'm recording this, about
30 expert contributors, all ofwhom have agreed to be available
(00:39):
for you to ask them questionsand they will come on and do a
Q&A episode, many of whom aregoing to be teaching workshops
in the fruition growth networkcommunity, and today's episode
is about imposter complex, oryou may know it as imposter
syndrome.
Tanya Geisler is somebody whohas massively impacted the way
that I approach everything inthe work that she does.
(01:01):
I heard her speak for the firsttime on a podcast before I even
started working for myself andtruly it's something that has
just informed the way that Imove forward all the time,
because, spoiler, I do sufferfrom imposter complex quite
often, as do all of us who areconscientious and value
(01:21):
integrity and care about what wedo, as you're going to learn in
this episode.
If you want to send in questionsfor any of our expert
contributors, go tojoinfrewishncom.
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If you haven't already.
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That makes a really bigdifference for us.
We are intentionally growingthe listenership of this show
(01:46):
because, hopefully, we will havesponsors in the future which
will allow us to expand some ofthe programming.
That, honestly, is some of themost important programming that
I would like to bring tofruition, and it depends on some
outside funding, so help us out.
You can also join us in fruitiongrowth network in the community
starting in October and spoilerthings are going to be even
(02:07):
more accessible than theynormally would be in the month
of October, so that's the monthfor you to check things out.
We're going to be doing liveevents, guest workshops,
co-workings, and we'd love tosee you there.
So get on our email list Ifyou're not already
joinfrewishncom, and let's getinto this episode with Tonya
Geisler.
Oh well, I can hear you when Iunplug my microphone.
(02:38):
So the problem is oh, you know,what the problem is is that my
headphones are not plugged intomy microphone.
Tanya Geisler (02:46):
Oh, honey, honey.
Brooke Monaghan (02:49):
We're off to a
strong start.
Okay, hi, how are you, I'm good.
I mean, I'm not sure you cankind of probably not maybe the
outline of a kitten, maybebasking some sun.
Tanya Geisler (03:05):
She's just, she's
just purring, it's just just
they're so happy, the other ones.
So the my only caveat is that Idon't know, like I don't know,
what's going to happen.
We might have to edit somestuff out.
Oh, they wake up and just belike wild, because kittens man.
Brooke Monaghan (03:24):
That's fine,
but also like, the stuff that
you would think you have to editout is oftentimes the most
entertaining stuff, true, youknow I love my dog.
Just be in the podcast sometimes, thank you.
I've been changing my haircolor maybe every four weeks for
the past like six months andthis one is staying.
(03:44):
This, this orange, is doing itfor me and it's also on brand
with the new branding, so I'mjust like going with it.
The first thing that I wantedto say to you was it is so funny
how he ended up talking becausefor this because I had been for
a month I had a list of peoplewho is like I'm going to reach
(04:06):
out to these people and ask themto be contributors for this new
platform that I'm working on,and I was like it's going to be
great and people are going tothere's so much in the story as
I'm saying and I'm like, oh man,there's like so much in the
story, but it's going to begreat because I'm going to be
the person who gets to show upin people's inbox and be like
(04:26):
hey, do you want to come on apodcast?
Do you want me to like featureyour work on this thing?
And, like you know at least, Ispend a whole bunch of time
looking for opportunities likethat.
So I was like I'll be theperson who gets to show up in
people's inbox and ask them, youknow, and offer this, until the
time came to actually do it.
And I was like I don't want tobother anybody.
I'm asking people to do workfor me.
(04:48):
I don't want to.
I can't reach out to thesepeople.
I can't just like ask that likethey're going to be like who do
you think that you are Like, no, I don't want anything to do.
What?
No, this is just like too much.
And you were on that list, bythe way, obviously, because
every single time that anyonesays the words imposter syndrome
(05:09):
is what they usually say.
I'm like, actually, I use theterm imposter complex Because
Tony Geisler says you need to goto her website and you need to
look at, like her articles thatshe has there.
It's like you know and you'rejust like my go to person that I
always bring up when I talkabout that.
So why would I not ask you tobe one of the first contributors
?
But did I?
No, I didn't.
(05:31):
And then I was on Facebook,which I almost never go on an
actual lady.
The only reason I'm on there isbecause there's one Facebook
group I'm a part of and it hasjust moved off of Facebook so I
get to delete that account again.
But luckily I didn't, because Iwent on Facebook and I saw you
say do you have a podcast thatyou want me to be on?
And then you're talking abouthow, like one of the central
(05:52):
parts of your work is sayinglike your people want to help.
And I was like, oh my gosh, andit was on the day that I was
like reach out to thesecontributors and it just was
right there so I couldn't.
I mean at that point I didn'tknow and it was like my, it was
like my doorway, it was mywindow of opportunity to say
(06:14):
Tony Geisler is somebody who Ihave looked up to for so long
and heard you speaking, evenbefore I left my full time job
and even started doing the workthat I do.
I don't know.
I get to like just hang outwith you and talk to you and
like have you on my podcast andask you whatever I want.
It's just wild to me.
Tanya Geisler (06:35):
So bless, bless,
bless, bless.
And I'm so honored that youwere a big if you said, can we
do this?
And I'm also, you know, I amgoing to pat myself in the back,
I'm going to go ahead and justjust that was so smart of me to
do so smart.
You know, sitting inside ofthis, I have had I don't know
how many conversations in thelast couple of weeks in the pits
(06:58):
of doing a bunch of crap Ididn't want to be doing, and I
have a lot of really smartpeople around saying, well, what
do you want to be doing?
I want to be having greatconversations, I want to be on
more podcasts, I want you know.
And then, and then it was likewhat are you doing about that TG
?
Oh, maybe I should probably ask, and I did, and my calendar has
(07:20):
been filled with theseincredible conversations and I'm
just, of course, so I amabsolutely celebrating that
following that, and I'm justdelighted and honored.
It was so, it was so good.
Just y'all remember to ask,just remember to ask.
Brooke Monaghan (07:35):
Yeah, and so
many people I know I'm not the
only one who was waiting forTonya to start to be like hey,
you have a podcast.
I want to be on.
Like, of course, your calendaris filling up great
conversations because everyone'slike, yes, I do Come and talk
to me.
Yeah, and one of the reasonswhy I, you know, you were such
an obvious person for me to wantto have on the show which you
(07:56):
were on my other podcast yearsago at this point, and it was so
fun and so informative and I'vesent people back to that
episode a bunch of times.
But I also, you know, I wantedto have you back again because
not everybody is going to goback and listen to that episode.
Not everybody is going to goand listen to all of the
conversations that you have donebefore.
(08:18):
And I want to like push this infront of people one more time
because it's so.
I was telling you like it's so,it's.
It's something that I come backto all the time as somebody who
is like I mean all of us, Ithink.
But every single time that Ihave a new idea, there's the
imposter, complex element of itand there's some things that you
(08:42):
teach that to me.
I'm just like, yeah, this is.
I just know this now.
And so, even if I don't believeit and even if I am in one of
those days where I'm like reallytalking shit to myself, I can
be like, okay, but here's whatwe know is true about imposter
complex and I can just like kindof rest on that for a moment
and I'd love to get into some ofthose things with you first,
(09:06):
because people really reallyreally need to hear it.
So I think the place to startis like I'd love for you to walk
us through, or you don't haveto walk us through, but we can
start the conversation with.
If someone is coming up againstimposter complex, really hard
and it's really loud, like whatare some of the things that we
(09:26):
can maybe guess might be goingon for that person, or might be
true for that person, that arecausing us to come up?
Tanya Geisler (09:36):
I had this
problem over the weekend when
somebody was like so I've beenfollowing your work, but exactly
what is imposter complex?
And I was like God, how long isthis piece of string?
I don't know what to say.
So the first thing I will sayis when you said, what do we
know about this person who'scoming up against the imposter
complex?
What we know is that thisperson is human.
(09:57):
Know that this person hasbeautiful values of excellence
and integrity and proficiency.
That's what we already knowabout this person.
We also know that they are onthe precipice of doing something
that is meaningful and thatmatters.
So that's what we already know.
(10:21):
If you're experiencing this, youare struck, you are at an edge
and you want to do things reallybeautifully well, because this
thing matters to you.
So you're also a human.
So those are the first thingsthat we absolutely understand.
To be true, the impostercomplex wants to keep you out of
(10:42):
action.
It wants to have you doubt yourcapacity and it wants to keep
you alone and isolated.
Sometimes all three are thefour and sometimes it will pick
one or the other.
So for that person, that'sreally where we begin is well,
(11:02):
what's actually going on here?
Is it trying to keep you out ofaction by telling you you don't
know what you're doing.
You actually named it.
You named it in a couple ofdifferent times, in a couple of
different ways, when you werecreating this new,
extraordinarily important to youplatform.
You are already in the place ofwho am I to and what will they
(11:22):
think?
You didn't actually say that,but that's what I heard.
Those are hallmarkcharacteristics or hallmark
questions that the impostercomplex is going to show up with
.
So that's what we know aboutthe person right out of the gate
that this matters.
You know, I say this all thetime.
I don't experience the impostercomplex in my yoga practice.
(11:43):
I don't experience it in mycooking.
Those are things that I enjoy,but they don't.
They're not deeply ensconced inmy sense of identity or my
sense of purpose and place onthis earth.
But holy do.
It's like a show of myparenting and my speaking and my
teaching and my writing.
(12:04):
That's where it's going to showup.
Brooke Monaghan (12:06):
Yeah, and those
are things that I am so
grateful for Tiffany Hahn, forbeing the person who introduced
me to your work, and I thinkthat and so many other people
right.
I mean it's just like it was sopivotal for me to start to kind
(12:29):
of discover people like you,like Tiffany, like Lena West,
like people who I've met kind ofthrough, just like I landed on
a podcast one day.
These conversations came up andI was just like, oh my gosh,
like I've never heard anyone putit this way and it just really
changed the trajectory of mylife, like it really really did.
I mean, I was my memory oflistening to you for the first
(12:51):
time.
Now I'm going down like a storyhole, but there's something
that I actually wanted to sayabout that.
It was walking to my nonprofitjob in Buffalo, because I lived
in Buffalo at the time with mybig like Sorrel boots on and
like going through, like thesludge down the stairs to go and
walk to the office and hearingyou I think it was an interview
(13:12):
that you did on Tiffany'spodcast for the first time.
Like I still remember itbecause, despite the fact that
and I am married to an academicand so people in academia talk
about imposter syndrome all thetime that they have imposter
syndrome.
Despite the fact that I haveheard a million conversations
about imposter syndrome, I hadnever one time heard someone say
(13:36):
, hey, if you're experiencingthis, it probably means that
this really matters to you andyou really want to do a good job
and you're really conscientiousand like care about the people
who are.
You know who you're doing thisfor and all actually like this
is a totally normal thing.
Tanya Geisler (13:49):
Yeah, 100%, 100%
100%, and we want to make
ourselves so wrong, for we wantto make ourselves so wrong.
I love what you were saying.
I love that visual.
By the way, I love the Sorrelboots Boy.
Do I know that?
Do I?
I'm in Toronto, so you know, Iknow the sludge, you know.
I know what that February 27thday is like.
(14:10):
And, by the way, I give thanksfor Tiffany Hawn every single
day myself.
In fact, she was just textingme about something else today.
What I think is really valuablefor people to know about me and
my work is that I'm not here toeradicate imposter complex,
right, can't be done, can't bedone.
(14:30):
But what I want people to haveis that faster recovery or the
way you named it.
You know.
I'd like just coming back toremembering what I know.
So I want that to be ingrainedin people's understanding about
what's going on for them.
And you've mentioned impostersyndrome a couple of times.
Is it fruitful to share?
Brooke Monaghan (14:51):
with folks why
I was going there next.
So go there what's?
Tanya Geisler (14:54):
the OR.
Yeah, so imposter syndrome ishow this experience is largely
known, mostly because of a bookwritten by Valerie Young a
couple of decades back where shenamed it as imposter syndrome.
The clinical psychologists whoidentified this experience named
(15:16):
it as imposter phenomenon, andI think that that's a really
important distinction for me,because syndrome speaks into it
being a clinical diagnosis.
It suggests that there's aclinical diagnosis to this.
That's typically what asyndrome will mean, and so for
folks who have, who havediagnoses that are syndromes,
(15:39):
you'll understand why thatmatters.
And words definitely matter tome, so I don't want to co-op
medical terms.
Also, it really pathologizeswhat is otherwise a really
typical kind of life experiencethat we all come up against.
So that's really important.
Now I say this all the time.
It's getting a little bit tired, but it does.
(16:00):
It still remains the truth.
My SEO people are so pissed atme that I continue to use
imposter complex because that'snot what people are googling,
but still, you know, again,words really really do matter to
me and also, as my coach andfriend, desiree always reminds
me, this stuff's complex right.
So the idea whether Jung wouldagree with me or not if it's
(16:22):
actually complex, I really likethat reminder.
It's very, very layered, it'svery nuanced, and we all
experience this in extremelydifferent ways.
I think this is the otherchallenge that we can have here
is, when we talk about imposter,complex or syndrome, we do like
to look at it as a sort of aone size fits all experience.
(16:46):
And it ain't that.
It's very, very complex and youknow, I talk about it from the
lens of my lived experience.
The white, neurotypical,able-bodied woman of middle
class means living in NorthAmerica.
That is not everybody else'struth, that is not everybody
else's experience, so we'regoing to experience it
differently.
Brooke Monaghan (17:06):
Part of my work
is to flatten it and say, okay,
we are coming at this fromdifferent places, we are showing
up with different copingmechanisms because of how we've
been conditioned, because of howwe've been socialized, because
of how we've been systemicallyexcluded, so we're going to have
a different experience withthis, and so that naming of
(17:30):
complex invites a little morecare, I think, as we have this
conversation, yeah, I agree, andone of the things that I really
appreciate about theintentionality behind the term
that you use there is that, atleast prior to hearing you speak
on imposter complex, I wasalways hearing people talk about
(17:53):
it in terms of this is aproblem that I have and it's a
me thing and I need to figureout how to deal with this and
what I learned through your workbecause, also, what I will say
is that I know that you're notdoing the podcast anymore, but
you did have a podcast readyenough, which is still there
(18:15):
everybody and the conversationsare still awesome and what I
really really loved about andlove about that podcast is that
you were sort of going at thingsfrom the angle of, like, okay,
there's imposter complex, butthere's also all of these other
systemic things or all theseother external things that feed
(18:36):
into this as well.
Like, let's have a conversationabout this.
You weren't trying to do thething that so often happens on
the internet, where we want tolike, way, simplify and make
everything about that thing,because then that leads people
to thinking that you're theultimate source on all of the
things, which is like what we'retaught to do when actually,
(18:59):
like, there's so much complexityto this and I really appreciate
that and I really appreciatethe conversations around, like
or at least what I took fromsome of the conversations that
you had around what would itmean if you were really to just
(19:21):
like get rid of this thingwithin you, because that would
mean that you actually wouldn'thave that really strong value of
integrity or excellence?
Like that would mean thatactually you would be going
about things with maybe a littlebit less care or a little bit
less like thoughtfulness andright and so like this is the
(19:47):
thing that when you know what itis and I do think it's helpful
to name things, to know whatthey are you can work with it.
But if you don't know what itis and you think that it's your
fault and you're trying to getrid of it, you're actually
moving in the wrong direction.
Tanya Geisler (20:01):
Exactly, exactly
exactly.
I write a quote in one of myclients, miro Bortz.
They'll send me their mind mapsof like all the stuff.
There's some quotes like ifthat, and I can't remember who
the quotes were.
So I'm just gonna do that thingwhere I'm let me know who said
this quote.
(20:21):
But it's basically like if acaptain's job is to preserve the
ship, it'll never leave theharbor, right, that's not the
point.
We're trying to swing out.
We're trying to do things.
We're trying to.
We got like things to.
We've got systems to heal anddecisions to make and things to
disrupt.
We can't just sort of stay inthis like like I can't do this
(20:43):
thing.
Lena West, I loved this so much.
She talks about you know,specifically my work, but really
I guess it's this work when westart to name and understand
what's actually going on.
She said this work is like aFormula One racing suit so,
which is such an interestingmetaphor for me, like as a
(21:04):
complete non-racer.
But I'm like I get it, I get it.
So it's not going to.
You know, you're still gonnahave to hug the turns and you're
still gonna have to.
Presumably that's how racingworks.
You know, it might not evenprotect you from some of the
skids that you're gonna have,but it's gonna protect you.
Like once you know that youhave this suit that is made so
(21:25):
perfectly designed for you, youare going to be okay when you
skid out or when you do whateverit is that you do in Formula
One racing.
It's a great metaphor that Istill don't really understand,
but I get the suit analogy rightso like it's not gonna stop you
from, like it's gonna protect,as you're doing, these big world
(21:49):
changing, disrupting things,and that's what it's about.
Brooke Monaghan (21:53):
Yeah, yeah.
And the discomfort of doingthat, of like stepping out and
being like I'm gonna take a riskand, you know, do my best in
this area, that really mattersto me Like that's gonna be
uncomfortable.
Tanya Geisler (22:09):
It's gonna be
uncomfortable, there might be
some skids, but like so, how doyou gear up?
How do you make sure that youare as protected as you can
possibly be?
Yeah, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (22:20):
I am feeling
like I need to reel myself in a
bit and come back to some of thebasic things that to me, might
seem very obvious.
I think that, but I think itmight be helpful to really spell
out for people who arelistening.
Like you were saying, like youknow, the imposter complex wants
(22:41):
to keep you doubting yourcapacity, alone and isolated and
out of action.
Yes, and so when you say that,like, what comes up for me is
just like this is like kind of amechanism of your, this is like
a mechanism that you are insome capacity like using to like
(23:04):
stay safe, yeah, right, yeah.
Tanya Geisler (23:08):
So why make
ourselves wrong for that?
The other thing too yes, we'regonna go back to that because I
probably wanna talk about somestrategies.
We probably wanna talk aboutthe coping mechanisms, because
those are the usually the thingsthat are bringing people to me,
to my work and thisconversation.
Let's do it.
But I wanna say that you know,you mentioned something about
how we have this experience andwe wanna make ourselves wrong
for it.
(23:28):
We think there's somethingwrong with us that we're gonna
be fixed.
You will also notice in theethers of conversation in an
Oran imposter complex, there's abrilliant article written by
the Harvard Business Review andyou know what?
I'm gonna make sure that wehave a link to that.
It's a really brilliant articlewritten by two women of color
(23:52):
talking about stop stop tellingwomen that they experienced
imposter syndrome, and I couldnot agree more in so many
different realms, becausetypically this is used as a
there is something wrong withyou, you don't have enough
confidence, you aren't speakingup enough, largely in a
(24:16):
corporate environment, butreally what's happening is folks
feel like they don't have theinstitutional ground cover to
protect them when they actuallydo raise their hand, when they
do swing out.
It has been used as a way ofgaslighting people, so I think,
again the complexity is so itbecomes a you problem, not a hey
(24:36):
.
How are we actually supportingfolks, how are we actually
making sure that their voicesare heard, that there is a
culture of belonging here, andso that can be another place
that we get that we push upagainst in this conversation.
So, further to gaslighting theway we're gonna.
(24:58):
We don't wanna feel like theimposter, right?
We don't wanna feel like that.
It's a terrible feeling.
We feel like everybody's in onsome kind of secret and we're
just on the outside and theimposter comics is absolutely
obsessed with how we arebelonging or not belonging.
So it's the reason we fearsuccess as much as we fear
failure.
On both ends of the spectrum weare othered from the sort of
(25:21):
the core group, right.
So we don't wanna feel likethat.
So that means that we kind ofwe reign it in a little bit.
So we're gonna hide out inspecific behaviors that again
have been conditioned or areinstruments of safety for those
who have been systemicallyexcluded or marginalized.
So this means that we're gonnago to perfectionism, which we
(25:44):
think our perfectionism is gonnasave us.
We're gonna procrastination toavoid feeling like the imposter
right, like if I don't have todo the thing, nobody's gonna
find out I don't belong here.
We'll go to a diminishmentwhere I condemn my light and not
to be on anybody's radar, wherewe go to comparison to see how
we're stacking up.
We're gonna use our peoplepleasing and we're gonna have
(26:06):
leaky boundaries.
Oh, again, all the time à lafoie.
We've never got out of bed ifthat were the case.
But we all have our typicalkind of go-to ways of trying to
avoid feeling like the imposter.
Add in one more layer ofcomplexity here, and when we go
to these behaviors to avoidfeeling like the imposter, we
(26:28):
actually feel more like theimposter.
So here's how that works.
Yeah, let's break it down for us, because I've had this
experience before and I can'twait.
Yeah, so as a people pleaser.
So I wanna make sure thateverybody likes me.
I wanna make sure thateverybody likes me and then I'm
gonna know that I belong.
Then I know that I fit in.
I know that I'm supposed to behere.
(26:49):
Nobody made a mistake, I belong.
But if I'm using my charm andmy likability, like I've been
taught, when I get offeredanother opportunity I'll think
well, they're just being nice,they just like me.
I'm not being invited becauseI'm deeply skilled, talented and
brilliant at what I do.
They just like me.
(27:10):
So that has me feeling morelike the imposter.
So it's this double edged Arrow, this double arrow yes, that's
what I want to say.
It's double arrow, right, itgets us coming and going.
Our perfectionism, right?
We think that we, you know, wewant to make sure that our work
is above reproach, right?
So we are going to work so hardand so diligently to make sure
(27:34):
that absolutely every eyesdotted, every T is crossed.
We are going to work so bloodyhard and then we look up and
realize, oh, wait a minute,nobody else has to work as hard
as me.
Clearly, I don't belong.
It's just coming and going andtrust what I tell you.
This is the same for every,every last aspect.
(27:56):
In comparison, we go tocomparison, but in doing so
doing, we actually feel morelike the imposter.
We go to a procrastination, wefeel more like the imposter,
each and every one of thesebehavioral traits.
So it feels relentless and itfeels futile.
Right, our coping mechanism isactually exacerbating the
challenge.
So this is another place we aregoing to make ourselves so
(28:17):
wrong and we're going to go to,you know, we're going to pick up
the book on how to stopprocrastinating and just be more
confident, dammit, and stopbeing such a people, pleaser.
Snap, slap, slap, slap, slap.
But the reality is there'ssomething, there's deep wisdom
here, there's somethingincredibly valuable that sits
here, and the self developmentspace is a $42 billion industry,
(28:42):
which is a ton of moneyinvested in making people,
making sure that people feellike shit about themselves.
So what I much prefer for peopledo is look at the sort of
conditions that foster my peoplepleasing.
Yes, it was how I wasconditioned, it was how I was
raised, it's how I was praised.
All of that is true and it alsounderscores my exquisite value
(29:06):
of inclusivity.
I am 0% interested in notamplifying that.
I am 0% interested in that.
I'm not interested in the waythat when I over identify with
my people pleasing, it keeps meout of action, doubting in my
capacity, and alone and isolated.
That's when it becomes tricky.
So if you're somebody who goesto people pleasing as a kind of
(29:29):
a natural set point, a way tocelebrate your value of
inclusivity, if you have leakyboundaries, a way to celebrate
the fact that you are deeplygenerous, that, if you have, you
know, if you're somebody whotends to compare, you've got a
gorgeous value of connectionthat is not to be trifled with.
If you diminish, it probablyhas a lot to do with your
(29:51):
humility.
If you are a procrastinator,then this is everything to do
with your value of discernmentand that perfectionism has
everything to do with your valueof excellence, and I talk about
leadership a lot, and when Ithink about those that set of
values discernment, connection,excellence, generosity,
inclusivity right Like that'sthe world I want to live in.
(30:14):
So, why are we making ourselveswrong for these aspect of
ourselves when we really need toamplify them?
Yeah, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan (30:24):
It's brilliant
and what I what I immediately go
to as I hear you kind of layall that out is if we, the
people who have, who tends to goto those people who have a lot
of connections that's a lot ofthem, they tend to go there
because we have those values arenot the ones who endure the
discomfort of kind of swayingout and creating a change and
(30:47):
disrupting some things andpotentially or definitely
screwing up and then being likeall right, but that doesn't you
know, like that's a human thing,then who does?
It's the people who don't havethose values or who they're
right, like their interest infeeling important or making
(31:12):
things work in a way that worksfor them and people like them.
Those are their values that aresteering the ship, and it's
like there's to me, there's likeno choice but to not allow
those to be the only people whoare, you know, at the forefront
(31:33):
of things.
Tanya Geisler (31:33):
That's right, and
you mentioned a little bit
before you were talking about,you know, if we eradicate the
imposter complex.
And what does that look like?
Well, what it looks like is alot of people walked around with
the Dunning Kruger effect,which is like a plate opposite,
which is where you haveconfidence, but very, very few
data points of your excellenceand your ability right the
imposter complexes.
That's the inverse.
So not at all interested inthat, not at all interested.
Brooke Monaghan (31:57):
Yeah, one bit.
Another piece of this too thatkeeps coming up as you're
talking and I think is reallyrelated to this and anybody
who's listened to any of myother pieces of content that
I've done is probably so sick ofhearing me talk about it is
Carol Dweck's work on growth,mindset and how actually, like
(32:20):
you get better at things bymaking mistakes and struggling
through, like, putting in effort.
You don't know what you're doing.
At first, you have all of thisconfidence.
Then you start putting in theeffort, you start learning what
you didn't know before and itfeels like you have no idea what
(32:40):
you're doing, because you'reactually becoming more aware of
what you didn't know before, andthat's what learning is.
Like you like mess things upand you realize you have no idea
how to do a thing, and thenthat points you toward what you
need to learn, how to do, andyou misstep through it and right
and it's.
It feels like imposter, complex, like one of the one of the
lies of it is that, like youshould somehow just come out of
(33:02):
the gate, like with your fullycapable of, like just doing your
life's work, like creating thismaster piece right now, which
is like obviously not the waythat it's ever going to work
like there's no space.
It never works that way, yeah.
Tanya Geisler (33:19):
Yeah, and, by the
way, yeah because our listeners
heard it, so I'm just going tounderscore and pull it back.
Nobody's sick of hearing youtalk about Carol Dweck's work.
Oh, thank you, because, becausewe love hearing it through the
lens of your perspective andyour big beautiful brain, we can
(33:42):
all read her work.
Might some of us might, but welove hearing it through your
perspective, thank you.
Brooke Monaghan (33:49):
Thank you for
saying that.
You know, this weekend I wastalking to a very close friend
of mine and they said I don'teven remember how it came up,
but they were saying somethingabout some of the things that
I've been working on and howthey've, oh they really loved
(34:10):
how close we've been at thisphase of both of our lives,
because it's allowed each of usto kind of witness the other one
do really big shit.
And I was like, yeah, I feellike I have so much to say right
now about how risky it is tojust create something, but I'm
like so in the experience, thatI'm just not really like even
(34:32):
talking about that with people,because I'm just like I'm trying
to just create the thing.
I'm just like I don't have timeto talk about it right now, I
just need to like do it.
And they were like you need tobe writing about this.
And I was like, oh, I writeabout it all the time.
I just never post it becauseafter I write it, I'm just like
everyone already knows that.
And they were like, yeah, no,that's not true, not everyone
(34:54):
already knows that, and even ifsome people do know it, like
they need to hear you say it.
Well, we had that conversation,I think, on like Thursday.
On Saturday I wrote this wholebig thing.
Ask me where it is.
It's in my notes app.
Why?
Because when I got to the endof it I was like Brené Brown
already wrote this whatever, noone needs to hear this.
Now you're saying this and I'mlike it's already there.
Literally all I would need todo is just copy it and paste it
(35:18):
somewhere Like I don't know,even send it to a few of my
friends, like it doesn't evenneed to be content, necessarily,
right, but just saying it andsharing it with people.
Yeah, there's just always thatvoice.
That's like no one really needsto hear that from you.
You know, that's just sointeresting.
Tanya Geisler (35:39):
That's line
number four, the imposter
complex, of which there are 12,.
You have nothing useful,original or valuable to say,
which is when, when we believethis line, we say nothing, we
pass up opportunities forcollaboration, we pass up
opportunities to say arebrilliant, to share our
brilliant shit with the world.
This is probably no, can't picka favorite, can't pick a
(35:59):
favorite.
There are 12 fantastic lines.
All are deeply compelling, butthere is absolutely nothing new
under the sun.
There really isn't there, likethere, there, literally, is
nothing new under the sun.
Yeah, it isn't, yeah, but wehave not heard, through the lens
of your lived experience, fromwith your brilliant flavors,
(36:23):
we're all.
We all will always remember youwalking in your sorrels, like
those are the ways that we are,that we have the wisdom
imprinted through yourexperience.
I'm going to tell you somethingstraight up like this that, to
me, is the Oprah effect, for me,100% the Oprah effect.
When you hear back in the daywhen, when she was interviewing
(36:46):
folks it wasn't, you know, Iwasn't super interested with
Deepak show project is sayingcome for me I don't care, but I
was really interested to hearwhat he had to say through the
hopper of her experience, thehopper of wisdom and how she saw
the world, because I and Ithink that that was one, one of
the things as the mostcompelling she would take these
(37:07):
concepts and would she be ableto to bring them down in a way
that really just made sense.
The other thing I want to sayis I'm celebrating you in that
friendship.
I'm celebrating you and thatperson that you have in your
life, because such a huge partof this work for me you know you
named the three things that itwill name positive complex,
(37:27):
wants to keep you out of action,doubting your capacity and loan
, and isolated.
The strategies are reallyspecific and, of course for if I
want to keep you alone andisolated, your job is to
assemble your cast right.
Really make sure you'resurrounded by some really,
really good folks.
I mean folks who are justconstantly in agreement with you
, but that can provide youconscious critique, and that is
(37:50):
a huge piece I think so many ofus tend to struggle with.
So when there is somethinguseful in relationships, I
really want to put a spotlighton that so you can see that's a
beautiful, beautiful thing.
Brooke Monaghan (38:04):
Yeah, thank you
for that.
Yeah, it's, it's true, andhonestly, I mean, it's been so
game changing for me to realize,like the people who I really
want to be spending time with,to the point that it's a huge
part of the reason why I'veshift.
I've kind of pivoted in my ownbusiness, because one of the
(38:24):
things that I really want to do,one of the things that we're
going to start doing in fruition, is having free, open to
anybody calls with the intentionof like if you need to find,
like accountability partners,mastermind buddies, like people
you want to collaborate orsomething with, or something
like come in and helping peopleconnect with those people,
(38:44):
because you do not need toalways.
Sometimes you do need to pay tobe in a space, to be surrounded
by the people that you want tobe surrounded by, but sometimes
it's a matter of being like youknow what.
I just need to set a time asideto be with these people
regularly and make it a point tonot shy away from talking about
(39:09):
the things that I'm doing.
Like, make it a like a you knowa mastermind, so to speak, where
you're making it a point whereeveryone's talking about the
things that they're working onand sharing that with each other
, like, and I think that we'vegotten to a point now where it's
see, it feels like there's aprogram for everything and you
always need to join a thing inorder to be working on something
(39:29):
and that can be really helpfulfor people.
But also, if you don't have theresources to do that, or if you
already have people in yourorbit who you know would be
really mutually beneficial forthe two of you to do that
yourselves, like, do ityourselves.
It's been huge for me, so and Ido pay to be in space to help
(39:53):
bring something different.
Tanya Geisler (39:55):
Absolutely.
I do think that sometimes folksstruggle to find those people
and so into something that is abit more curated and organized.
It's like I'll be able to stepin and I'll know that my people
are going to be here.
There's so much wounding in andaround finding your people.
We've all had experiences wherewe've not been met, where we
(40:18):
felt let down.
Where we've not been, you know,folks won't rise up to meet us
All of there's so much pain thatsits inside here.
So again, I want to celebratethat you have some of those
folks.
Brooke Monaghan (40:31):
Yeah, thank you
.
Yeah, I have a couple ofquestions for you about you and
your experience, rather thanabout imposter complex, and the
first one is one that I've beenso curious about, which is you
are a.
It seems that you're doing lotsof speaking engagements and you
(40:53):
are like an excellent speakerand people love having you speak
at their events, and I'mcurious about how you started
with the speaking and if thatwas like something that you I
think it's something that youalways wanted to do, because I
think that you have this likepresence of being on a stage
that just seems like there's nopossible way that it was like,
you know, just something thathappened, but I would love to
(41:15):
hear a little bit about that.
Tanya Geisler (41:17):
I have always
loved the stage, love, love,
love the stage, but not thetheater, not the theater
necessarily, but I've alwaysloved the the.
Yeah, if you've ever workedwith a coach, you know that
they're going to do a peakexperience moment.
And my peak experience momentwas what was when happened when
(41:38):
I was 17, writing for studentcouncil and I did the whole
thing in full on Bill and Ted'sExcellent Adventure vibe.
Oh yeah, it was something.
It was something.
But really, when I think aboutthat peak experience, what that
brought me was an understandingof joy.
I really felt so much joy.
(41:59):
I felt I felt connecting, Ifelt generous with my humor, I
felt grateful for theopportunity.
So all of this was just thisreally beautiful combination.
So I've always wanted to comeback there and so having impact
in a pretty large way was so youknow that was a very indelible
(42:19):
moment.
And you know I did do a littlebit of theater, most like like
Molière plays and universitykind of thing, and I loved, I
just loved all of it.
I loved the impact, I love howpeople felt and responded.
And my first corporate I wouldsay I was an advertising and by
(42:43):
far my favorite part was thepitches.
I loved being able to holdsomething, so it wasn't just the
entertainment, it was also.
Can I change people's minds?
Can we look at this differently?
Can we all of us see somethinga little bit differently?
So what I looked at, what Ireally wanted to do and again, I
(43:06):
, too, have cultivated goodrelationships, and it's been
super important all along for meto make sure that I'm
surrounded by people who areable to tell me the truth, who
are able to offer consciouscritique and who are interested
in watching me expand.
So I've always had folks likethat, and so they've been able
to reflect back when I wastrying to figure out what
(43:28):
doesn't add to the detail of it.
But when I went through a bitof a career crisis and I was
trying to figure out what Iwanted next, that's what was
reflected.
How do we get you on more stage?
How do we get that free?
Because that's really where youcome alive and that is the
truth of it.
So it's always been part ofwhat I've enjoyed doing, and I
(43:49):
feel extraordinarily gratefulthat I have been given some
great opportunities.
I did a TEDx talk back in 2012,2012, lord and that definitely
opened up a lot of doors for me.
But I think largely when peoplesee me somewhere, they will find
(44:11):
other stages for me to be on.
So I have been extremely lucky.
That is the truth of it.
I've been extremely lucky, I'vebeen extremely fortunate, and
I'm aware that can sound likediminishment.
That is the truth.
I'm extremely grateful for theluck that I've had and also know
that I show up, I show up.
I've got a gig in Norway at theend of October and that babes
(44:38):
in the can, I have done it, I amworking it, I'm running through
my paces.
So I work really hard on mycraft.
I'm actually creating aspeaking checklist for folks who
are interested and maybe don'tknow the questions to ask as
they're going into discoverycalls.
So hopefully that'll be done bythe time this is live and I'll
(45:01):
be happy to share that withy'all.
Brooke Monaghan (45:02):
Yes, oh my gosh
.
I would love to share thatbecause I know that so many
people want to be speaking andthe thing that I see come up for
a lot of folks is getting thatfirst kind of opportunity, or
the first few opportunitieswhere you can then kind of show
(45:22):
people.
Right, this is something that Ido, and I'm glad that you
brought up the TEDx talk,because I was actually curious.
I was going to ask you aboutthat.
I know one other person who hasdone a TEDx talk, by the way, to
your point about being luckyand fortunate but also showing
up, this person is not doing awhole bunch of speaking
(45:43):
engagements coming off of thatTEDx talk, because they would be
totally okay with me sayingthis they know that this is true
.
They're not born to be on stagespeaking and they don't take it
.
That's not something that theytake very seriously.
And so for you I mean anybodywho's watched you speak before
which I've watched the TEDx talkeveryone should go and watch it
(46:03):
.
It's like clear to me thatpeople were like oh yeah, let's
find more stages for talking,you know, but what was the TEDx
talk process?
Like?
Like, because I know that thereare people who are really
interested in doing one of thoseone day.
I'm curious if you have anyinsights to share.
Tanya Geisler (46:21):
What I'll say is,
once again, not dissimilar to
this podcast.
Getting that invitation was anabsolute testament to just
asking, so naming what it is youwant.
And so, actually, what's reallymagical?
Sophia Moore was my client andwe were on a retreat weekend in
(46:46):
Whitby Island.
So it's Tara myself, ronaDietrich, julie Daly and a
couple of other amazing humans,and we're speaking with Leanne
Raymond.
So Leanne, who, as it happened,was, had invited TEDx to her
town of Comox, and so we werejust in the conversation and I
(47:11):
said I want more stage and Iwant more stage.
I'm just naming that, I'mdeclaring it.
It was a full, it was a newmoon situation.
We did some spell casting.
Oh, it was good, and throughthat we all got the invitation.
We were like yes, I'd love morestage too.
Let's make that happen.
(47:31):
How do we make that happen?
And then, very shortly after,leanne invited us all to come
out and we shared.
We did, we all shared the samestage together.
It was extraordinary, but again, the power of asking, the power
of clarity and the power ofasking right place, right time,
you got to show up and so youknow.
So it wasn't this like reallyelaborate application process
(47:57):
that I know folks have to gothrough.
I have applied for TEDx Toronto.
Did not get a callback, just soyou'll know.
So you know, like, but it is,you've got to.
You just have to make sure thatyou're asking, make sure that
you are clear about what it isthat you want, and then, in some
ways, you know, dog with a bone, that resilience or that sort
(48:19):
of that.
I would say that tenacity,tenacity.
But I was not going to.
I was going to keep asking andasking, and asking, and asking,
and asking until I made ithappen.
So that's, you know, that'swhat I highly recommend.
Then the process itself.
I mean, you know, it's like anyother thing that really matters
to you.
You train, you train and youtrain and you train, and you go
through a million iterations ofwhat you think is important and
(48:42):
then you strip it back and you,you know you are very discerning
about the people that you runthrough it with.
Again, you know, like yourpeople, making sure that you are
with people who are able tooffer you conscious critique,
that you have to be discerningwith the people that you're
going to you know perform for inpractice.
(49:02):
So that's that, that's, that'swhat comes off the top of my
head.
Brooke Monaghan (49:08):
Yeah, super
helpful.
And what I'm also hearing inthere too is like, again, it's
like the people that yousurround yourself with, because
if you didn't have thoserelationships then you wouldn't
have ended up in that room, andyou can't do that that's.
That's not one of the kinds ofthings that you can aim directly
at.
Be like I'm going to formrelationships that are going to
get me to add X top, but if youare intentional about your
(49:29):
relationships and nurturingrelationships, and then with
those people, you areintentional about sharing what
you actually want and all ofthat, it's like there's things
that happen that you can'treally explain, but you can set
it into motion by at least beingclear and saying what you want.
Tanya Geisler (49:43):
And yeah, and
being in as many rooms as you
know, as you are, as you canhandle.
The other thing, too is I thinkwe don't talk about this enough
.
I tend I, you know I'm, I wouldsay I'm an extroverted
introvert and so, speaking, youknow, being able to speak to a
lot of people, got my messageout in this bigger way and then
(50:04):
being able to retreat, very,very, very important to me.
So for some people that's youknow, the this friend, that
might not be how they're made up, right Like, but this is a way
that I can really preserve myenergy and and bring the best
that I have.
Brooke Monaghan (50:20):
Yeah, Speaking
of preserving your energy, my
final question for you I'mconscious of the fact that I
have only five more minutes ofyour time is that?
I'm curious if you ever play onpodcasting again.
Tanya Geisler (50:32):
Absolutely,
absolutely, ready enough?
Yeah, it's actually simply justgoing to be called with Tony
Geisler.
Brooke Monaghan (50:39):
Oh, I love it.
Tanya Geisler (50:40):
I wanted to have
the opportunity to have to be
able to cover the myriad of allof the things, all of the all of
the things Entrepreneurshipwith Tony Geisler, this comfort,
like whatever it is.
So, yeah, it's.
Oh, it's coming back, baby,it's coming back ready enough,
served a really valuable andimportant.
It's a really important seasonfor me to amplify some voices,
(51:04):
to make sure explicitly clearthat I am not the teacher for
everyone.
I wanted the opportunity forfolks to meet Mackenzie Mack and
to meet Deseret away and tomeet other people that that have
a lived experience in fostercomplex that I don't have.
That was really important.
And then, when we tied it upwith the probably the most
perfect, perfect interview,which is with Deepa ire all
(51:29):
about the different roles thatwe play inside of social change,
which stands the test of timethere was actually nothing more
I needed to say after that,because so much of my work is
identity based.
So how am I showing up to thisnew crisis?
How am I showing up to thepandemic, which is when that was
produced?
How am I showing up?
(51:50):
And that body of work that deepire has has expressed is just,
it stands the test of time.
And that, to me was like therewas.
There was nothing else I wantedto say after that about that
again, that season.
So yeah, I'm coming, oh, I'mcoming back baby.
Brooke Monaghan (52:08):
I'm so excited
to hear it and I just, I also
just love that you had the, thatyou made that decision, like
that you knew that that was theright thing to do for you and
for your work.
Because it reminds me of, likeyou know, when a TV show goes on
for like you like love the show, like it's the best show ever
and you're never going to stopwatching it.
And also it's like it goes onfor so long that it sort of
(52:31):
starts to like lose its, which Ican't imagine your show having
done that.
But then there's those showsthat are just like they end at
the perfect time and you're like, oh my gosh, how did these show
runners make the decision toend this like succession?
Succession just ended after whatlike right, and it's like that
show could have continued to besuch a popular show.
(52:52):
But they were like Nope, weknow what we need to do, we're
ending it and it's just Iactually have like goosebumps
right now because I'm just likeit's a part of creating that is,
I actually think, like reallyimportant and can make something
just so like chef's kiss, likeyou know just so good.
And ready enough is so good andI'm very, I would love to say I
would love to say that there wasall premeditated.
Tanya Geisler (53:14):
It absolutely was
not.
Brooke Monaghan (53:15):
It really was
just like oh oh yeah, but a lot
of people would have gone.
No, but the plan was yeah.
Tanya Geisler (53:26):
Nobody got time
for that.
Nobody's got time for that.
Nobody's got time for that.
Nobody has time for that.
No, let's like call, call thethings, call the things.
And yeah, absolutely it wasjust, it was the right time, it
was the right conversation.
That's where I wanted to leavethe market.
Now it's been.
It's been a really fun sort ofdreaming and scheming into what,
what comes next, and it's Imean the talk about your mind
(53:50):
maps, the where we're going tobe taking.
It is just very, it's verydelicious.
It's also going to be YouTubechannel, which I'm really
excited about.
Brooke Monaghan (54:00):
I'm so excited.
Okay, well, I am honored andjust I'm so grateful for the
fact that I was like leave Tanyafor the end of the people to
reach out to.
I'm just going to start withthe people who I know are, like
you know, gonna and look at us.
Now you are one of the firstepisodes for us to launch and
(54:21):
I'm just really honored and I'mreally grateful and this was so
much fun and I'm really happythat we got to do this again.
Tanya Geisler (54:27):
Thank you, thank
you, thank you.
Thank you for receiving the batsignal.
Folks, just remember to ask itclear what it is you want and
then ask for it.
There will be some yeses, therewill be some noes, or there
will be some silence, but therewill be some yeses, there will
be some.
I am so delighted that youasked for this because he would
get to do that, so thank you.
Thank you for meeting the call,thank you for doing your work.
(54:50):
I think you're reading yourwork with the integrity, with
what you hold your work, andjust I told you I have a.
I got a lot of time for you.
I got a lot of time for you.
Thank you so much.