March 14, 2022 • 36 mins
D&D players have spent almost 50 years breaking the game. This week: the arrowhead of total destruction, nuclear warhead powered by extradimensional spaces; and the wireless troll, communication via regeneration.
Read the transcript and get more from the show:
https://scintilla.studio/monster-arrow-of-destruction-wireless-troll/
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Join the conversation: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter
Meet my guests:
Jeremy Vine: www.twitter.com/talumin
Jarrod Jahoda, Mid-Level Adventurers: www.twitter.com/midlvladventure
Danilo Vujevic, Thinking Critically: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk/
Rebecca Gray and Steven Myers, Eberron: A Chronicle of Echoes: https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/
Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rebecca Gray (00:11):
You guys are doing specific monsters from older.
Steve Myers (00:14):
That's not specific cheats.
It is different cheeses,
Rebecca Gray (00:19):
Cheeses!
We're cheesing things I don'tknow if that's what you call it.
Lucas (00:23):
uh it's going to be what I call it now, because it's way better.
Because a lot of the ways inwhich the game has created its own
lore, its own D&D cryptids startedback in third edition and 3.5.
and Fifth edition stands at the top ofthis teetering tower of nonsense that is
(00:44):
50 years old and has given rise to a hugevariety of things that are just in the
game now and have names and wander aboutthe world of D&D in the same way that
wandering monsters roam around dungeons.
So
Rebecca Gray (01:00):
peasant rail gun,
Danilo Vujevic (01:01):
something like the quantum ogre,
Jeremy Vine (01:02):
I loathe the arrow of destruction,
Lucas (01:04):
the False Hydra,
Jarrod Jahoda (01:06):
a wireless troll,
Steve Myers (01:07):
Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (01:17):
Welcome to Making a Monster, the bite-sized podcast where we look
at the monsters in Dungeons and dragonsand other tabletop RPGs and discover
how they work, why they work andwhat they mean for these episodes.
I've assembled a crack team ofD and D podcasters from all over
the world to track down monsters,born of the system itself.
Jeremy Vine (01:36):
I'm Jeremy vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.
Jarrod Jahoda (01:39):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Danilo Vujevic (01:45):
I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcastwhere we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means inthe D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
Rebecca Gray (01:59):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (02:00):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (02:01):
And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Lucas (02:07):
So let's talk cheese!
we'll move on.
Cause
Rebecca Gray (02:11):
going.
Lucas (02:11):
yeah, cause I want to talk about one thing that I know has changed from
older editions to this edition are theexact mechanics of the way portable
holes and bags of holding work, andit's still bad putting them together.
And I think it used to be worse.
Jeremy Vine (02:28):
So the idea is that there are dimensional spaces like a bag of holding.
The bag, you can just put as muchstuff- well, a lot of stuff into,
and also things like a portable hole,which is a hole that you can put in
the ground very much Bugs Bunny, whereyou can just kind of draw a hole in the
ground and then jump in and then pullthe hole above you so you're hidden.
Another one is rope trick, which isactually a spell where you basically
(02:49):
just drop a rope and you climb upthe rope and you hide in a little
cabin at the top and the only thing,and then you can pull the rope after
you so no one knows you're in there.
Uh, there's a really interesting, Ithink in Eberron, where they've got
these, the electric trains, and allof the first class cabins are actually
these extra dimensional spaces.
So you can have these gorgeousrooms and libraries, while you're
(03:10):
still traveling on the train.
But there is a problem when thesethings start to interact because.
I guess two negatives in apositive world kind of thing.
really force these things together,there's going to be a bit of blowback.
A lot of people wonder what happensif you put a portable hole into a bag
of holding and previous editions, Ibelieve it was something very nasty.
Lucas (03:33):
So someone of a mechanical bent has devised a way in which we can use this
particular interaction to create a weaponof mass destruction for very little cost.
I don't know if I sent youthe diagram that I found, but
I feel like this isn't the
only,
Jarrod Jahoda (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lucas (03:53):
when was the first time you saw this?
Jarrod Jahoda (03:55):
Probably about 10 years ago or so.
You know, like a lot of these things,they originated in someone's home game
and a thought experiment somewhere.
And it wasn't until really like thelate nineties, early two thousands when
the internet became popular and therewere message boards and websites and
forums where people could start talkingabout and really refining these ideas.
(04:18):
And so the D&D forums litup with all of these things.
And the Arrowhead of MassDestruction is one of them.
It's this idea where you rollup a portable hole and put it in
a like special compactor thing,right in front of a bag of holding.
And when the arrowhead impacts, theportable hole gets shoved into the
bag of holding and detonates a massiveexplosion because in older editions,
(04:44):
that's what happened when two intraplanardevices tried to swallow one another.
It was just too much for the universe.
And so a massive explosion, occurred,killing everything in anything, destroying
castles and walls and all this nonsense.
Danilo Vujevic (04:59):
The interaction between these two extraplanar items causes
a rupture in spacetime and tears thefabric of reality apart and things go
flying and this, that, and the other.
So you're turning an otherwise oned6 arrow into a 10 foot sphere of,
delete the terrain here, please.
Jarrod Jahoda (05:24):
In fifth edition, it's narrowed down so that if two extra
planar openings or bags or holes orwhatever, go into one another, they
just destroy themselves and spit outeverything that was in them, which is
a much more like non-lethal version.
Jeremy Vine (05:41):
I loathe the arrow of destruction, which as a dungeon
master, I just call garbage.
I just don't allow anything like that.
It's the equivalent of creating a miniblack hole gun and going, yeah, I'm
going to go down the shops and rob abank with the mini black hole gun inside.
It's probably not a good idea,uh, just to have in general.
So I generally just sayit doesn't doesn't work.
(06:03):
But it was this weapon of massdestruction that players figured out,
Hey, I can do that pretty easily.
I can get these things together.
It's an interesting idea.
Um, it's certainly a, a nuclear option.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:15):
The first time I ever saw this particular idea, I was all aboard.
I was in it.
I was like, if you can find those thingsand if you can craft that arrow without
killing yourself, you can use thatarrow because if you think about it,
you're working with two highly volatile.
(06:37):
Well, they're not volatile.
They are perfectly safe to use bythemselves, but the closer they get to one
another and they gotta be pretty close.
If you're going to put them into anArrowhead, then if you can figure that
out and in such a way where not only canyou manufacture it, but carry it safely.
(06:57):
Like, I'm like, if it was me andsome of done that, but they have
been like, we've made this thing.
I'm like, okay, you havesuccessfully made this thing.
How are you transporting it?
I'm just going to put it in my quiver.
Are you now?
Lucas (07:08):
you know,
Jarrod Jahoda (07:09):
Okay, let me know how that works.
The next time somebody kicksyou in the backside or you
get smacked by a falling rock.
Cause, uh, I don't think thatif that arrowhead is designed
to crumple, it's designed tocrumple, but Hey, you live your
life, man.
Steve Myers (07:26):
See, this is just all it is.
It is making a game more complex forthe sake of screwing over your players,
Rebecca Gray (07:33):
which is why we have the house rule that it doesn't work.
I think that I dealt with players whotried to use this and they did not like
my answer which my answer was that it'sa myth, that it is an absolute myth that
Lucas (07:48):
Oh,
yeah.
Steve Myers (07:50):
pop rocks and putting together pop rocks and Coke.
Everyone knows it's a myth,but no one's willing to do it.
No one really wants to do thepop rocks and Coke just in case
it is going to cause problems.
Lucas (08:02):
Right.
Even if it doesn't kill you,it's gotta be a bad time.
Steve Myers (08:05):
it's, it's going to be uncomfortable and, you know, the.
They were trying to have anunseen servant deliver it to yeah.
Instead of the arrow, the arrow ismuch more concise and I think we
need more trick arrows like that, youknow, like world ending WMD, arrows
in D&D just need to be a thing.
Rebecca Gray (08:28):
Yeah.
Let's, let's continue to add moreweapons of mass destruction to our games.
Listen,
Steve Myers (08:32):
I'm learning from the morning.
All right.
Morning causing arrows.
That's what it was.
Yeah.
Lucas (08:38):
Someone did it.
And now we have the morn land.
Okay.
Steve Myers (08:43):
had a game that took place in a pocket universe we said,
that's how we ended up there is thatwe had put a bag of holding into a
portable hole and ended up there.
And I, I think that if yourplayers are headed that route.
have someone else step in like, Okay.
you guys are messing with time and space.
The inevitable is of time and space.
(09:03):
Three, five, go ahead.
Just whip them out, have themshow up and be like, you guys are
trying to break space and time.
No, stop it.
Danilo Vujevic (09:11):
Would I allow it?
Yes, but with probably so many stringsthat it would turn off the, the player.
The one example I saw of the mechanism,it was quite an involved mechanism.
You know, you've got a pinthat holds something in place
that has to shatter on impact.
And, obviously with any of these kindsof payload type weapons, you have to be
(09:32):
able to set it up and arm it essentiallybeforehand, but still have the strength
within it to withstand the torque and thepressures of being flung out of a bow.
I would be like, okay, well a, youneed an artificer or maybe a wizard
and they need a lot of time and you'llneed some resources and probably
some failed experiments and the costto cover, oh, you've torn a 10 foot
(09:56):
hole in your lab that landlord isprobably not super stoked about.
Jeremy Vine (10:01):
I feel that dungeon masters, particularly don't like it because you
create these wonderful monster thatthey get to, you're going to, um, have
against the potty for a long time andthey shoot them with one arrow and
suddenly, well, now there's a powervacuum as well as the vacuum of space
that the creatures just being sucked into.
Lucas (10:18):
Yeah.
And nature abhors both.
I wonder if this is the kind ofthing that you could build an entire
adventure around, like the creationof the arrow of total destruction
Jeremy Vine (10:28):
I would say you could probably build
certainly a module around it.
I probably wouldn't makeit an arrow destruction.
I make it like a ballista, like amassive or even a catapult that a
king is trying to build, like, itbecomes the nuclear deterrence, like,
if I have this, no one will comeagainst me, but also I've got it.
(10:49):
Now I've got to go out and, and use itagainst people and take over places.
But the, for the adventure islike at the adventure level,
they have to assemble the pieces.
They have to go out and find a certain bagof holding that will work for, they have
to find a suitable, certain portable hole.
They have to find the right thingslike the right arrow that will
stand up to just the frictionof using it in the first place.
(11:12):
Um, and this, this idea that eachlevel, each little adventure, he's
getting another aspect of this weapon.
And eventually once you have theweapon you're unstoppable and
that's where the campaign ends.
So that's where the adventure is over.
You've got the thing.
Now.
It doesn't matter whether you can useit or not, because you now have it.
(11:35):
It's like just the, justgetting there is the.
Lucas (11:38):
yeah.
It's almost like the rod of sevenparts, except that instead of creating
something out of the lore of the world,we've created something out of like
the, you know, the lore of the world,
you know what
Jeremy Vine (11:50):
It's like, it's just suddenly become a really Metta matter idea for it.
It's like out of the rules of theworld, we have created a, an artifact
rather than creating the, the artifactfirst and bringing up rules for it.
I definitely would, consider it certainly.
And I feel that this is something thatis built into the game, that there
are these artifacts, these weaponsthat are too powerful to exist.
(12:12):
These magical swords that can takeover your mind, books of ultimate evil,
rings that can rule the world, one ringto rule them, all that kind of thing.
This is built into the game.
I feel that what players wantis them on a regular basis.
Uh, rather than remembering thatthese, these ultimate power will
eventually ultimately corrupt youand you don't want that part of the
(12:34):
story, you just want to get to it.
You just want to achievethe ultimate power.
Lucas (12:42):
Yeah.
Cause then you have thisgame where you have to manage
massive international politics.
And I don't know, like, I, Iknow if that were my game, I'd
be like, all right, wait, now
Jeremy Vine (12:57):
see.
I feel,
Lucas (12:58):
feels somewhat unsatisfying at that
Jeremy Vine (13:00):
I think at a certain level, if you've got this arrow,
like nothing can stop you.
Depending how many of the arrows you haveif three dragons come against you, you
can shoot all of them with one arrow.
And it does become well that the creaturesdon't want to be hit with a nuke.
They want to fight back.
So they're going to stop doingpreemptive strikes again.
And I think that a lot of the time,particularly fifth edition, people tend
(13:23):
to forget that you're only heroes becauseyou're the main characters, that the
monsters know where they're doing, themonsters don't want to die and they will
come after you if, if they learn that youhave something like this, people will try
to take it from here and using it doesn'tmean that they contact it from here.
Lucas (13:45):
Yeah.
there's no shortcut to,uh, to invincibility.
Jeremy Vine (13:48):
And also again that if you can make it so can other people that when,
Lucas (13:53):
oh yeah.
Now you have to make it first.
Jeremy Vine (13:55):
Now the bandit Lord has it and start shooting you with it.
And it's a lot less fun for, forplay characters when suddenly
your exploit is used against you.
Lucas (14:05):
Especially if the bandit Lord is everywhere.
Uh,
Jeremy Vine (14:09):
Everyone's got a mini vortex grenade that just sucks you into the warp.
Uh, and it's, it's notfun for most people.
Lucas (14:19):
Yeah.
I think this is us sort of encounteringthe limits items being numbers,
being abstracted and physics beingnot necessarily directly mapped
over the real world, because thisisn't a game that's designed for
realism it's designed for balance.
So one of the things that I always like tothink of the bag of holding is this is an
item that enables us to ignore encumbrancerules so that we can not spend 30 minutes
(14:46):
of our weekly session figuring out right.
You know, counting pounds.
And so then, you know, that'show the bag of holding got here.
And then we started to ask a lot ofquestions about extra dimensional spaces.
And I think what happens when you putthem together is us throwing up our
hands and saying, all right, this isno longer helpful, so they explode.
Steve Myers (15:11):
well.
So we streamlined that process in,in my games I was running them by
saying, all right, we won't do that.
And in exchange, you guys have acoin purse of infinite holding.
The coin purse can only take coins.
They have to be of a printed denominationthat exists within the world.
is the only thing they can go inthere and it will automatically
(15:33):
exchange it based on currency.
Lucas (15:35):
Oh
Steve Myers (15:36):
all, yeah, that, that way I could make it easy
to not have to deal with all ofthat, because again, I hate math.
I'm not here for math,I'm here for storytelling.
And as soon as math gets in theway, I'm not going to enjoy it.
I
Rebecca Gray (15:48):
ignoring.
Steve Myers (15:50):
My first DM did not.
My first DM was big on encumbrancerules and I, as a had to deal with that.
Like I was a
Lucas (15:57):
Oh
Steve Myers (15:59):
to sneak out a treasure chest full of stuff by being
Lucas (16:01):
Uh
huh.
Steve Myers (16:02):
it's a suit of heavy armor guys.
I don't know what you want.
It's armor in there.
We carry it out for me.
I'm too weak to physicallycarry out this treasure.
Please it for me.
Lucas (16:13):
Yeah.
I mean, that would prevent your roguesfrom putting a, you know, a massive oil
painted portrait of great value into theirpocket and then sneaking out the window.
So, you know, there's,
Steve Myers (16:23):
Yeah.
That is also true.
Lucas (16:26):
there's a level at which some of this is useful.
And I think we've gotten that we've gottenthe Arrowhead of total destruction at the
limit of which, you know, by, by takingsome of these quality of life improvements
and then asking the kinds of questions,they were never meant to withstand.
Steve Myers (16:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that everyone wantedgame to be as streamlined as
possible and not have problems.
And then we had to push the envelope.
Rebecca Gray (16:57):
I mean, but that's the natural thing when it comes to a lot
of, a lot of D&D is people go, but whatif I did this, which is the brilliant
part about D&D is that people can go.
But, but what if I, but what if I, therecould a bunch of swords in my bag of
(17:22):
holding, which would a rift in the bag ofholding, but I knew exactly where in the
Astro plane, my bag of holding would riftto, and I put a portal on the other side
and all of those swords would go shootingout of the portal and into the dragons.
Steve Myers (17:39):
Yeah, that's your
Rebecca Gray (17:40):
welcome new cheese, birthday.
Lucas (18:25):
the idea here is the wireless troll.
And this one only works becausewe have DNDs picture of trolls
as almost fungus people.
Jeremy Vine (18:35):
Yeah, I feel instead of a troll, a probably
a better example is Wolverine.
I'm going into and going,well, maybe even Deadpool.
That's a, another good example ofthis idea that no matter how severe
the injury, eventually you'll beregenerating from a certain point.
Jarrod Jahoda (18:49):
Yeah.
So the idea is that eventually,somehow your party kills a troll.
You then take the troll and chopit up into exactly equal pieces.
Lucas (19:02):
Precision is important.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:03):
Yeah.
Because the way that in some fantasysettings, trolls work, as they regenerate
from the largest leftover piece.
Jeremy Vine (19:14):
And the idea of the wireless troll is essentially that
trolls regenerate a lot unlessthey take fire or acid damage.
As a fun aside, they believe this isbecause the troll god will eat you
when you die if you have been burnedbecause you're ready to cook or if
you've already been half digested.
Uh, so he's fine with that.
(19:36):
And that's why trolls believed that theyare only vulnerable for these things
because otherwise they grow back there.
Okay.
And this idea that if you are on ajourney, uh, you cut off a finger
or a hand or something of the trial,and it will grow the hand back.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:52):
So by cutting them all up into like one inch cubes or
whatever, which how anyone wouldknow to do this is a, like a really
high nature check in my opinion.
And then you like leave pieces orleave a piece with like someone you
really like to let them know, ormaybe you have multiple pieces that
you leave and you like from differenttrolls and you like tag them all.
(20:14):
So, you know, which trollgoes to which person, right?
The idea being that if they ever needyou and they're in dire straights,
they just cut up their small pieceof troll, which then your piece
of troll begins regenerating.
And because it's growingbigger, you realize that.
And you're like, oh, Bobneeds us back in Bob town.
(20:35):
And so you can go back to Bob town.
So it's like this, it's like amore involved in less efficient
way of like the sending spell.
Jeremy Vine (20:47):
But you carry that, that troll hand with you, that
stumpy hand and keep it in a bag.
And if your followers need to get amessage to you urgently, what they
can do is tell the troll this causethat you've got them captured.
Apparently if you've been able to cutup the hand, they kill the troll and
cut them into tiny, tiny little bits.
And then the hand that you have of thetroll is the largest piece of the troll.
(21:09):
So that's what regenerates,that's what grows the troll again.
And now it can tell you the message.
And I can see that working.
I like that idea of honestly,Wolverine being able to do that.
Well, you got to have a certain amountof body left and it's like, great.
That's that's the bit that, uh, I mean,even I'm going to doctor who, I mean, I
(21:31):
feel that's something that happened in theDavid Tennant run that I had got chopped
off and they were able to grow a new
Lucas (21:36):
whole deal.
Jeremy Vine (21:37):
Grow a new doctor from just a hand.
And it's the, kind of the sameidea that, but what level does
the memory get maintained as adungeon master is so ripe for abuse.
So ripe for abuse, that the factthat you're keeping a captive troll
(21:57):
I mean, this is where the ethicalconcern start to come up for me.
Like where do you draw the line of,uh, trolls are, trolls are kind of evil
for the most part, but not necessarily.
It's a very D&D thing.
Cause I don't think trolls always havethese regenerative ability in, in mythos,
in the folklore that we have in our world.
The trolls are the threeBilly Goats, Gruff.
(22:18):
Oh, hide under bridgesand I attack people.
Um, I mean, if you look at Discworld,which I usually do, trolls are not
even, flesh and blood , they arestone and they're just super tough.
They're not regenerative.
You can damage them with a pickax, butuh, you're not going to be able to like
patch it back up with plaster later on.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:37):
So I think it's hilarious as hell, and really, ingenious in
a way, but it's built entirely offof meta knowledge, you know, um,
Lucas (22:48):
break that down for me.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:50):
So the meta knowledge being like, oh, well, trolls regenerate from
the largest pieces in fantasy setting XYZ.
Right?
That's the meta knowledge.
If you want your ranger to be able tofigure that out, well, they are going
to have to have whatever creaturetype trolls are in your setting as
(23:11):
their favored enemy in like five V.
I think they are giants by default.
Lucas (23:15):
Yeah, they are some, they're this weird sort of fungal variant of giant.
Jarrod Jahoda (23:19):
Yeah.
So your favored enemywould have to be giants.
Number one, number two, youhave to be proficient in nature.
And number three, you would have to rolllike a 30 nature check to figure this out.
Right.
Which is possible.
But then I would require like a 30survival check add five days to chop
(23:41):
it up into all these little pieces.
What are you gonna do withthe rest of the pieces?
Because if any piece gets cut updamaged, eaten by a bird, then other
than another piece will start growing.
So you have to do that.
Oh, you just burn all the other pieces,like, okay, maybe that's possible,
but if you bury them, maybe theyall like, just stick back together
and then you get a mutated trolland your pieces are in dirt anyway.
(24:04):
So it's a fun idea.
And there's ways to like really mess withthem if they want to put the time into it.
Um, so I really liked the idea.
It's so creative, but also Iwant them to try, but I also
don't want them to succeed.
Rebecca Gray (24:21):
Okay.
So here's my issue with that (24:23):
at what, at what point, at what point
does the finger of the troll notcount anymore as part of the troll?
I would say for me, gosh, I love this.
Steve Myers (24:42):
I would say
Rebecca Gray (24:43):
for me, Either A, once the troll regrows his
finger, it doesn't work anymore.
B that trolls are like earthwormsand the finger, once far enough
away from the original troll, willjust start regenerating anyway.
Jeremy Vine (25:04):
And at what point does it become you?
It's a little bit ofTheseus' Boat as well.
It's like which one is the, is the, you?
Oh, the Ship of Theseus, I should say.
Danilo Vujevic (25:11):
Like in the example, it's that they start growing from
the finger, which, which implies Ikind of have to regenerate a brain.
And at which point is it the sametroll or is it a different troll?
And they
Lucas (25:22):
oh yeah.
Danilo Vujevic (25:23):
and the memories and surely they have
a brain cause they're humanoid.
So you would imagine their brainis in, not in their fingertip.
Which is where memories arestored as far as we know.
And I think it's broadlyapplicable to 99.9% of humanoids.
Maybe that's what I would argue actually.
Now I've, I've thought it out andspoken out, maybe in my world at
(25:45):
the troll would regenerate at thefingertip, but just be like, ah, why
have you bought me into this world?
And just be like, this is ahorrible experience and I'm, I I'm
pissed and I know nothing aboutanything, cause I'm a neutral.
which would be hilarious.
I'd love to play that like a trollbeing born and there were eagerly
(26:05):
waiting their message for it.
Just to be like in agony.
I was just angry at being bornin such a horrible manner.
Jeremy Vine (26:16):
And I love the idea of a wireless troll of sending messages.
It's like, I feel this probablyworks in an evil campaign.
If you, if you want to show your playersthat somebody is a really bad guy, that
is what you have them, or you have themsend, like they just send a hand and then
suddenly an entire troll pops out of itand goes, I've got a message for you.
(26:38):
What, what on earth is going on here?
And now they're going to find a troll too.
So.
Lucas (26:44):
Oh, yeah, of course naturally.
Jeremy Vine (26:46):
That's a good way to do the quantum ogre as well.
You just have them show up withlike a little troll head that
suddenly pops up and you've gota full troll coming out of it.
Lucas (26:56):
Yeah.
Um, I call it the kick, the dog moment,like in the same way that the hero has to
save the cat, the villain has to kick thepuppy and, uh, this would be a great way.
Like there's always that thingthat villains do to let them
know it's okay to hate them.
Usually it's they'rehard on their lackeys.
Jeremy Vine (27:14):
Crossing that moral event horizons, like how could
you be mean to that person?
We thought you were a good, bad guy,but you're actually just fully evil.
Whereas I like to have the pet thedog moment, uh, which is not basically
the opposite where you have thevillain, do something nice and show
that they do have on a insert inregards to just their beliefs, uh, more
(27:36):
important than the rest of the world.
Jarrod Jahoda (27:38):
I would probably have it as like a big, bad wizard
type character who has essentiallylittle jars filled with bits of
trolls from all of his lieutenants.
Like that's how you becamea Lieutenant for him, right?
Like you had to go out andslay a troll and dice it up.
And like, you don't know why hedoesn't tell you until afterwards.
(27:59):
And he's like, all right,you're a Lieutenant.
Here's your bit of troll.
This is what you do with it.
And this is what I do with it.
And if it ever starts growing, youbetter report here on the double with
all your armies or whatever it is.
And so like all, and maybethat's the adventuring hook.
Every time they defeat one of thelieutenants, they find like this
glass vial that just has like a oneinch cube of rotting flesh in it.
(28:23):
No reason.
And eventually they identify that it's atroll and then they learn that it's like,
oh, they're all from different trolls.
And you know, so it's like this adventurelook like who is doing this and why?
Lucas (28:35):
Yeah, this is messed up.
We got,
Jarrod Jahoda (28:37):
Yeah.
I don't know who's doing this, but theygot some issues they need a counselor.
Meanwhile, like troll wizard herein the back is like, yes, yes.
Succumb to my plans!
Lucas (28:52):
Oh man, can I put troll wizard on the list?
Cause I want to do that.
Jarrod Jahoda (28:57):
Yeah.
You know, there's like Grushek the TrollWizard who has like become the predominant
troll in his area because he's justkilled all the other trolls to use them
as early warning triggers or whatever.
Lucas (29:09):
Oh man.
Jarrod Jahoda (29:10):
I liked his idea.
I'm glad we've talked about this.
I'm going to use this.
Lucas (29:14):
If this becomes anything, like if you ever write that out, let me know.
I will play test the heck out of it.
Jarrod Jahoda (29:20):
I love it
Lucas (29:21):
I just.
So many of these are, arebetter off in the DM's toolbox.
Jarrod Jahoda (29:26):
Now.
And in five V specifically, playercharacters are super powerful.
So why would you givethem something like that?
Leave that as like a bad guy togive the bad guy an edge, you know,
Lucas (29:38):
Yeah.
And talking of like morally ambiguousvillains, um, who do you have to be to,
to even to conceive of this and then, youknow, muscle through and actually do it?
Jarrod Jahoda (29:51):
uh, I think you have to have been picked on in
a playground a lot and have a, avery vengeful sense of justice.
Danilo Vujevic (30:00):
Out of everything we've discussed, this is the most plausible
and the most grounded, I think, as youput it, because it is apart from one very
literal rules as written, utilization ofthe rules is otherwise completely mundane.
Um, the only caveats would be thisagain, it's always, it's always because
(30:28):
of the implication for the waste90 fans out there, uh, with me and.
You know, when my players to do this,then there might be some questions
around like kind of the grim realityof what they are attempting to do and
any witnesses and so on and so on.
Otherwise, no, it, you know,if it were a big, bad evil
(30:52):
guy then yeah, it's plausible.
I think what else thatalone is it's plausible, but
unlikely for various reasons.
One being is that I hope my playercharacters wouldn't get there
because not that they will haveto be heroes, but even pushing it.
This is pushing the definition of heroics.
(31:13):
And secondly, my specific big,bad would not resort to something
is, beneath him as, as well.
This is, um, And I would like tothink that many other big bads would
have more sophisticated means of longrange communicate, uh, that doesn't
(31:34):
revolve harrowing experience evenfor the most gruesome of goblins.
Lucas (31:42):
Can we call this counter cheese?
Like I see your cheese andI raise you more cheese.
Rebecca Gray (31:50):
here is stinkier cheese.
Steve's over here grimacing at me.
Steve Myers (31:54):
Well, I don't like it.
Like three, five had clones as well.
Like there was a clone smell in thepsionics, so you could actually make
clones of people and that all just, Ican't man, I can't my brain, my brain
refuses to be involved in any of that.
It's it's a nightmare.
It is a logistical nightmare.
What if you're all the same exact size?
All of the cubes, same exact size.
(32:15):
What happens.
Rebecca Gray (32:21):
Yeah, I don't know.
Could you cube something?
All the, the exact same sizethat let's be real is isn't that
Lucas (32:28):
Yeah to what
Steve Myers (32:29):
I, imagine I could get two cubes out of it.
Two cubes, the exact same size,and then burn the rest of it.
Lucas (32:34):
Just statistically speaking
Steve Myers (32:35):
two fingers.
Exact same size, both.
Yeah.
Like here, here's where we're at.
And now, now what happens?
I don't want to like, yeah, no, Iknow this is no, I'm sorry guys.
Just it doesn't work.
That's not the way trolls work.
You guys are wrong on so many levels.
You've kept a troll captive.
Lucas (32:54):
Your cheese scientists were too busy wondering whether they
could to ask whether they should.
Thanks for listening to Making a Monster.
If this episode has entertainedor enlightened you in any way,
please share it with the peoplewho play D and D with you.
Your recommendation will go along way to helping people trust
me with their time and attention.
(33:15):
And it's a real gift to meand the creators I feature.
You could also leave me a like, or afive star review on Spotify, iTunes,
or your podcast player of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really doeshelp new listeners discover the show.
If you really like what I'm doing,you can support me through the book of
extinction, a project I'm creating withMage Hand Press that enables D and D
(33:36):
players to make a real difference in theclimate crisis and rapidly accelerating
mass extinction by telling the storiesof the animals that we have already lost.
There are already five episodesof Making a Monster about
the creatures in that book.
So set this podcast feed to newest firstand take a journey with me into a world
wilder and more fascinating than youprobably thought it could be special.
(34:00):
Thanks to my collaborators onthese exploit monsters episodes.
Jeremy Vine (34:03):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.
You can find me on social media onTwitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,
or you can listen to my podcastsTell Me About Your D&D Character,
which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV
Jarrod Jahoda (34:18):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
I'm one half of the creative team.
Matt is the other half, or you cancatch Matt and I on Newly Forged,
which is our Twitch stream D&D game.
It's a homebrew game set in apost-apocalyptic magical world.
(34:39):
And, uh, you can follow us onInstagram, Twitter at mid LVL
adventure to keep updated.
And we've recently started releasingour podcast episodes on YouTube as well.
Danilo Vujevic (34:50):
I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcastwhere we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means inthe D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
that has been going on now for almost 65episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops
(35:12):
everything from your esoteric, left-field,weird things that you would never
attribute to D&D all the way to encountersand experience, and much more obvious
topics, including soft skills, such asfriendship and social and meta things such
(35:33):
as podcasts, which was a weird itself.
Naval Naval gazing.
One to record.
Rebecca Gray (35:39):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (35:41):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (35:42):
And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
It's a very different kind of podcast.
We're a little bit scripted, a littlebit improv and a whole lot of fun.
So we hope that you'll stop inand check us out and find out what
it's like when D&D meets radio.
Lucas (36:01):
We'll be back next week.
See you then!
You guys are doing specific monsters from older.
Steve Myers (00:14):
That's not specific cheats.
It is different cheeses,
Rebecca Gray (00:19):
Cheeses!
We're cheesing things I don'tknow if that's what you call it.
Lucas (00:23):
uh it's going to be what I call it now, because it's way better.
Because a lot of the ways inwhich the game has created its own
lore, its own D&D cryptids startedback in third edition and 3.5.
and Fifth edition stands at the top ofthis teetering tower of nonsense that is
(00:44):
50 years old and has given rise to a hugevariety of things that are just in the
game now and have names and wander aboutthe world of D&D in the same way that
wandering monsters roam around dungeons.
So
Rebecca Gray (01:00):
peasant rail gun,
Danilo Vujevic (01:01):
something like the quantum ogre,
Jeremy Vine (01:02):
I loathe the arrow of destruction,
Lucas (01:04):
the False Hydra,
Jarrod Jahoda (01:06):
a wireless troll,
Steve Myers (01:07):
Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (01:17):
Welcome to Making a Monster, the bite-sized podcast where we look
at the monsters in Dungeons and dragonsand other tabletop RPGs and discover
how they work, why they work andwhat they mean for these episodes.
I've assembled a crack team ofD and D podcasters from all over
the world to track down monsters,born of the system itself.
Jeremy Vine (01:36):
I'm Jeremy vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.
Jarrod Jahoda (01:39):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Danilo Vujevic (01:45):
I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcastwhere we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means inthe D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
Rebecca Gray (01:59):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (02:00):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (02:01):
And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Lucas (02:07):
So let's talk cheese!
we'll move on.
Cause
Rebecca Gray (02:11):
going.
Lucas (02:11):
yeah, cause I want to talk about one thing that I know has changed from
older editions to this edition are theexact mechanics of the way portable
holes and bags of holding work, andit's still bad putting them together.
And I think it used to be worse.
Jeremy Vine (02:28):
So the idea is that there are dimensional spaces like a bag of holding.
The bag, you can just put as muchstuff- well, a lot of stuff into,
and also things like a portable hole,which is a hole that you can put in
the ground very much Bugs Bunny, whereyou can just kind of draw a hole in the
ground and then jump in and then pullthe hole above you so you're hidden.
Another one is rope trick, which isactually a spell where you basically
(02:49):
just drop a rope and you climb upthe rope and you hide in a little
cabin at the top and the only thing,and then you can pull the rope after
you so no one knows you're in there.
Uh, there's a really interesting, Ithink in Eberron, where they've got
these, the electric trains, and allof the first class cabins are actually
these extra dimensional spaces.
So you can have these gorgeousrooms and libraries, while you're
(03:10):
still traveling on the train.
But there is a problem when thesethings start to interact because.
I guess two negatives in apositive world kind of thing.
really force these things together,there's going to be a bit of blowback.
A lot of people wonder what happensif you put a portable hole into a bag
of holding and previous editions, Ibelieve it was something very nasty.
Lucas (03:33):
So someone of a mechanical bent has devised a way in which we can use this
particular interaction to create a weaponof mass destruction for very little cost.
I don't know if I sent youthe diagram that I found, but
I feel like this isn't the
only,
Jarrod Jahoda (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lucas (03:53):
when was the first time you saw this?
Jarrod Jahoda (03:55):
Probably about 10 years ago or so.
You know, like a lot of these things,they originated in someone's home game
and a thought experiment somewhere.
And it wasn't until really like thelate nineties, early two thousands when
the internet became popular and therewere message boards and websites and
forums where people could start talkingabout and really refining these ideas.
(04:18):
And so the D&D forums litup with all of these things.
And the Arrowhead of MassDestruction is one of them.
It's this idea where you rollup a portable hole and put it in
a like special compactor thing,right in front of a bag of holding.
And when the arrowhead impacts, theportable hole gets shoved into the
bag of holding and detonates a massiveexplosion because in older editions,
(04:44):
that's what happened when two intraplanardevices tried to swallow one another.
It was just too much for the universe.
And so a massive explosion, occurred,killing everything in anything, destroying
castles and walls and all this nonsense.
Danilo Vujevic (04:59):
The interaction between these two extraplanar items causes
a rupture in spacetime and tears thefabric of reality apart and things go
flying and this, that, and the other.
So you're turning an otherwise oned6 arrow into a 10 foot sphere of,
delete the terrain here, please.
Jarrod Jahoda (05:24):
In fifth edition, it's narrowed down so that if two extra
planar openings or bags or holes orwhatever, go into one another, they
just destroy themselves and spit outeverything that was in them, which is
a much more like non-lethal version.
Jeremy Vine (05:41):
I loathe the arrow of destruction, which as a dungeon
master, I just call garbage.
I just don't allow anything like that.
It's the equivalent of creating a miniblack hole gun and going, yeah, I'm
going to go down the shops and rob abank with the mini black hole gun inside.
It's probably not a good idea,uh, just to have in general.
So I generally just sayit doesn't doesn't work.
(06:03):
But it was this weapon of massdestruction that players figured out,
Hey, I can do that pretty easily.
I can get these things together.
It's an interesting idea.
Um, it's certainly a, a nuclear option.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:15):
The first time I ever saw this particular idea, I was all aboard.
I was in it.
I was like, if you can find those thingsand if you can craft that arrow without
killing yourself, you can use thatarrow because if you think about it,
you're working with two highly volatile.
(06:37):
Well, they're not volatile.
They are perfectly safe to use bythemselves, but the closer they get to one
another and they gotta be pretty close.
If you're going to put them into anArrowhead, then if you can figure that
out and in such a way where not only canyou manufacture it, but carry it safely.
(06:57):
Like, I'm like, if it was me andsome of done that, but they have
been like, we've made this thing.
I'm like, okay, you havesuccessfully made this thing.
How are you transporting it?
I'm just going to put it in my quiver.
Are you now?
Lucas (07:08):
you know,
Jarrod Jahoda (07:09):
Okay, let me know how that works.
The next time somebody kicksyou in the backside or you
get smacked by a falling rock.
Cause, uh, I don't think thatif that arrowhead is designed
to crumple, it's designed tocrumple, but Hey, you live your
life, man.
Steve Myers (07:26):
See, this is just all it is.
It is making a game more complex forthe sake of screwing over your players,
Rebecca Gray (07:33):
which is why we have the house rule that it doesn't work.
I think that I dealt with players whotried to use this and they did not like
my answer which my answer was that it'sa myth, that it is an absolute myth that
Lucas (07:48):
Oh,
yeah.
Steve Myers (07:50):
pop rocks and putting together pop rocks and Coke.
Everyone knows it's a myth,but no one's willing to do it.
No one really wants to do thepop rocks and Coke just in case
it is going to cause problems.
Lucas (08:02):
Right.
Even if it doesn't kill you,it's gotta be a bad time.
Steve Myers (08:05):
it's, it's going to be uncomfortable and, you know, the.
They were trying to have anunseen servant deliver it to yeah.
Instead of the arrow, the arrow ismuch more concise and I think we
need more trick arrows like that, youknow, like world ending WMD, arrows
in D&D just need to be a thing.
Rebecca Gray (08:28):
Yeah.
Let's, let's continue to add moreweapons of mass destruction to our games.
Listen,
Steve Myers (08:32):
I'm learning from the morning.
All right.
Morning causing arrows.
That's what it was.
Yeah.
Lucas (08:38):
Someone did it.
And now we have the morn land.
Okay.
Steve Myers (08:43):
had a game that took place in a pocket universe we said,
that's how we ended up there is thatwe had put a bag of holding into a
portable hole and ended up there.
And I, I think that if yourplayers are headed that route.
have someone else step in like, Okay.
you guys are messing with time and space.
The inevitable is of time and space.
(09:03):
Three, five, go ahead.
Just whip them out, have themshow up and be like, you guys are
trying to break space and time.
No, stop it.
Danilo Vujevic (09:11):
Would I allow it?
Yes, but with probably so many stringsthat it would turn off the, the player.
The one example I saw of the mechanism,it was quite an involved mechanism.
You know, you've got a pinthat holds something in place
that has to shatter on impact.
And, obviously with any of these kindsof payload type weapons, you have to be
(09:32):
able to set it up and arm it essentiallybeforehand, but still have the strength
within it to withstand the torque and thepressures of being flung out of a bow.
I would be like, okay, well a, youneed an artificer or maybe a wizard
and they need a lot of time and you'llneed some resources and probably
some failed experiments and the costto cover, oh, you've torn a 10 foot
(09:56):
hole in your lab that landlord isprobably not super stoked about.
Jeremy Vine (10:01):
I feel that dungeon masters, particularly don't like it because you
create these wonderful monster thatthey get to, you're going to, um, have
against the potty for a long time andthey shoot them with one arrow and
suddenly, well, now there's a powervacuum as well as the vacuum of space
that the creatures just being sucked into.
Lucas (10:18):
Yeah.
And nature abhors both.
I wonder if this is the kind ofthing that you could build an entire
adventure around, like the creationof the arrow of total destruction
Jeremy Vine (10:28):
I would say you could probably build
certainly a module around it.
I probably wouldn't makeit an arrow destruction.
I make it like a ballista, like amassive or even a catapult that a
king is trying to build, like, itbecomes the nuclear deterrence, like,
if I have this, no one will comeagainst me, but also I've got it.
(10:49):
Now I've got to go out and, and use itagainst people and take over places.
But the, for the adventure islike at the adventure level,
they have to assemble the pieces.
They have to go out and find a certain bagof holding that will work for, they have
to find a suitable, certain portable hole.
They have to find the right thingslike the right arrow that will
stand up to just the frictionof using it in the first place.
(11:12):
Um, and this, this idea that eachlevel, each little adventure, he's
getting another aspect of this weapon.
And eventually once you have theweapon you're unstoppable and
that's where the campaign ends.
So that's where the adventure is over.
You've got the thing.
Now.
It doesn't matter whether you can useit or not, because you now have it.
(11:35):
It's like just the, justgetting there is the.
Lucas (11:38):
yeah.
It's almost like the rod of sevenparts, except that instead of creating
something out of the lore of the world,we've created something out of like
the, you know, the lore of the world,
you know what
Jeremy Vine (11:50):
It's like, it's just suddenly become a really Metta matter idea for it.
It's like out of the rules of theworld, we have created a, an artifact
rather than creating the, the artifactfirst and bringing up rules for it.
I definitely would, consider it certainly.
And I feel that this is something thatis built into the game, that there
are these artifacts, these weaponsthat are too powerful to exist.
(12:12):
These magical swords that can takeover your mind, books of ultimate evil,
rings that can rule the world, one ringto rule them, all that kind of thing.
This is built into the game.
I feel that what players wantis them on a regular basis.
Uh, rather than remembering thatthese, these ultimate power will
eventually ultimately corrupt youand you don't want that part of the
(12:34):
story, you just want to get to it.
You just want to achievethe ultimate power.
Lucas (12:42):
Yeah.
Cause then you have thisgame where you have to manage
massive international politics.
And I don't know, like, I, Iknow if that were my game, I'd
be like, all right, wait, now
Jeremy Vine (12:57):
see.
I feel,
Lucas (12:58):
feels somewhat unsatisfying at that
Jeremy Vine (13:00):
I think at a certain level, if you've got this arrow,
like nothing can stop you.
Depending how many of the arrows you haveif three dragons come against you, you
can shoot all of them with one arrow.
And it does become well that the creaturesdon't want to be hit with a nuke.
They want to fight back.
So they're going to stop doingpreemptive strikes again.
And I think that a lot of the time,particularly fifth edition, people tend
(13:23):
to forget that you're only heroes becauseyou're the main characters, that the
monsters know where they're doing, themonsters don't want to die and they will
come after you if, if they learn that youhave something like this, people will try
to take it from here and using it doesn'tmean that they contact it from here.
Lucas (13:45):
Yeah.
there's no shortcut to,uh, to invincibility.
Jeremy Vine (13:48):
And also again that if you can make it so can other people that when,
Lucas (13:53):
oh yeah.
Now you have to make it first.
Jeremy Vine (13:55):
Now the bandit Lord has it and start shooting you with it.
And it's a lot less fun for, forplay characters when suddenly
your exploit is used against you.
Lucas (14:05):
Especially if the bandit Lord is everywhere.
Uh,
Jeremy Vine (14:09):
Everyone's got a mini vortex grenade that just sucks you into the warp.
Uh, and it's, it's notfun for most people.
Lucas (14:19):
Yeah.
I think this is us sort of encounteringthe limits items being numbers,
being abstracted and physics beingnot necessarily directly mapped
over the real world, because thisisn't a game that's designed for
realism it's designed for balance.
So one of the things that I always like tothink of the bag of holding is this is an
item that enables us to ignore encumbrancerules so that we can not spend 30 minutes
(14:46):
of our weekly session figuring out right.
You know, counting pounds.
And so then, you know, that'show the bag of holding got here.
And then we started to ask a lot ofquestions about extra dimensional spaces.
And I think what happens when you putthem together is us throwing up our
hands and saying, all right, this isno longer helpful, so they explode.
Steve Myers (15:11):
well.
So we streamlined that process in,in my games I was running them by
saying, all right, we won't do that.
And in exchange, you guys have acoin purse of infinite holding.
The coin purse can only take coins.
They have to be of a printed denominationthat exists within the world.
is the only thing they can go inthere and it will automatically
(15:33):
exchange it based on currency.
Lucas (15:35):
Oh
Steve Myers (15:36):
all, yeah, that, that way I could make it easy
to not have to deal with all ofthat, because again, I hate math.
I'm not here for math,I'm here for storytelling.
And as soon as math gets in theway, I'm not going to enjoy it.
I
Rebecca Gray (15:48):
ignoring.
Steve Myers (15:50):
My first DM did not.
My first DM was big on encumbrancerules and I, as a had to deal with that.
Like I was a
Lucas (15:57):
Oh
Steve Myers (15:59):
to sneak out a treasure chest full of stuff by being
Lucas (16:01):
Uh
huh.
Steve Myers (16:02):
it's a suit of heavy armor guys.
I don't know what you want.
It's armor in there.
We carry it out for me.
I'm too weak to physicallycarry out this treasure.
Please it for me.
Lucas (16:13):
Yeah.
I mean, that would prevent your roguesfrom putting a, you know, a massive oil
painted portrait of great value into theirpocket and then sneaking out the window.
So, you know, there's,
Steve Myers (16:23):
Yeah.
That is also true.
Lucas (16:26):
there's a level at which some of this is useful.
And I think we've gotten that we've gottenthe Arrowhead of total destruction at the
limit of which, you know, by, by takingsome of these quality of life improvements
and then asking the kinds of questions,they were never meant to withstand.
Steve Myers (16:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that everyone wantedgame to be as streamlined as
possible and not have problems.
And then we had to push the envelope.
Rebecca Gray (16:57):
I mean, but that's the natural thing when it comes to a lot
of, a lot of D&D is people go, but whatif I did this, which is the brilliant
part about D&D is that people can go.
But, but what if I, but what if I, therecould a bunch of swords in my bag of
(17:22):
holding, which would a rift in the bag ofholding, but I knew exactly where in the
Astro plane, my bag of holding would riftto, and I put a portal on the other side
and all of those swords would go shootingout of the portal and into the dragons.
Steve Myers (17:39):
Yeah, that's your
Rebecca Gray (17:40):
welcome new cheese, birthday.
Lucas (18:25):
the idea here is the wireless troll.
And this one only works becausewe have DNDs picture of trolls
as almost fungus people.
Jeremy Vine (18:35):
Yeah, I feel instead of a troll, a probably
a better example is Wolverine.
I'm going into and going,well, maybe even Deadpool.
That's a, another good example ofthis idea that no matter how severe
the injury, eventually you'll beregenerating from a certain point.
Jarrod Jahoda (18:49):
Yeah.
So the idea is that eventually,somehow your party kills a troll.
You then take the troll and chopit up into exactly equal pieces.
Lucas (19:02):
Precision is important.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:03):
Yeah.
Because the way that in some fantasysettings, trolls work, as they regenerate
from the largest leftover piece.
Jeremy Vine (19:14):
And the idea of the wireless troll is essentially that
trolls regenerate a lot unlessthey take fire or acid damage.
As a fun aside, they believe this isbecause the troll god will eat you
when you die if you have been burnedbecause you're ready to cook or if
you've already been half digested.
Uh, so he's fine with that.
(19:36):
And that's why trolls believed that theyare only vulnerable for these things
because otherwise they grow back there.
Okay.
And this idea that if you are on ajourney, uh, you cut off a finger
or a hand or something of the trial,and it will grow the hand back.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:52):
So by cutting them all up into like one inch cubes or
whatever, which how anyone wouldknow to do this is a, like a really
high nature check in my opinion.
And then you like leave pieces orleave a piece with like someone you
really like to let them know, ormaybe you have multiple pieces that
you leave and you like from differenttrolls and you like tag them all.
(20:14):
So, you know, which trollgoes to which person, right?
The idea being that if they ever needyou and they're in dire straights,
they just cut up their small pieceof troll, which then your piece
of troll begins regenerating.
And because it's growingbigger, you realize that.
And you're like, oh, Bobneeds us back in Bob town.
(20:35):
And so you can go back to Bob town.
So it's like this, it's like amore involved in less efficient
way of like the sending spell.
Jeremy Vine (20:47):
But you carry that, that troll hand with you, that
stumpy hand and keep it in a bag.
And if your followers need to get amessage to you urgently, what they
can do is tell the troll this causethat you've got them captured.
Apparently if you've been able to cutup the hand, they kill the troll and
cut them into tiny, tiny little bits.
And then the hand that you have of thetroll is the largest piece of the troll.
(21:09):
So that's what regenerates,that's what grows the troll again.
And now it can tell you the message.
And I can see that working.
I like that idea of honestly,Wolverine being able to do that.
Well, you got to have a certain amountof body left and it's like, great.
That's that's the bit that, uh, I mean,even I'm going to doctor who, I mean, I
(21:31):
feel that's something that happened in theDavid Tennant run that I had got chopped
off and they were able to grow a new
Lucas (21:36):
whole deal.
Jeremy Vine (21:37):
Grow a new doctor from just a hand.
And it's the, kind of the sameidea that, but what level does
the memory get maintained as adungeon master is so ripe for abuse.
So ripe for abuse, that the factthat you're keeping a captive troll
(21:57):
I mean, this is where the ethicalconcern start to come up for me.
Like where do you draw the line of,uh, trolls are, trolls are kind of evil
for the most part, but not necessarily.
It's a very D&D thing.
Cause I don't think trolls always havethese regenerative ability in, in mythos,
in the folklore that we have in our world.
The trolls are the threeBilly Goats, Gruff.
(22:18):
Oh, hide under bridgesand I attack people.
Um, I mean, if you look at Discworld,which I usually do, trolls are not
even, flesh and blood , they arestone and they're just super tough.
They're not regenerative.
You can damage them with a pickax, butuh, you're not going to be able to like
patch it back up with plaster later on.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:37):
So I think it's hilarious as hell, and really, ingenious in
a way, but it's built entirely offof meta knowledge, you know, um,
Lucas (22:48):
break that down for me.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:50):
So the meta knowledge being like, oh, well, trolls regenerate from
the largest pieces in fantasy setting XYZ.
Right?
That's the meta knowledge.
If you want your ranger to be able tofigure that out, well, they are going
to have to have whatever creaturetype trolls are in your setting as
(23:11):
their favored enemy in like five V.
I think they are giants by default.
Lucas (23:15):
Yeah, they are some, they're this weird sort of fungal variant of giant.
Jarrod Jahoda (23:19):
Yeah.
So your favored enemywould have to be giants.
Number one, number two, youhave to be proficient in nature.
And number three, you would have to rolllike a 30 nature check to figure this out.
Right.
Which is possible.
But then I would require like a 30survival check add five days to chop
(23:41):
it up into all these little pieces.
What are you gonna do withthe rest of the pieces?
Because if any piece gets cut updamaged, eaten by a bird, then other
than another piece will start growing.
So you have to do that.
Oh, you just burn all the other pieces,like, okay, maybe that's possible,
but if you bury them, maybe theyall like, just stick back together
and then you get a mutated trolland your pieces are in dirt anyway.
(24:04):
So it's a fun idea.
And there's ways to like really mess withthem if they want to put the time into it.
Um, so I really liked the idea.
It's so creative, but also Iwant them to try, but I also
don't want them to succeed.
Rebecca Gray (24:21):
Okay.
So here's my issue with that (24:23):
at what, at what point, at what point
does the finger of the troll notcount anymore as part of the troll?
I would say for me, gosh, I love this.
Steve Myers (24:42):
I would say
Rebecca Gray (24:43):
for me, Either A, once the troll regrows his
finger, it doesn't work anymore.
B that trolls are like earthwormsand the finger, once far enough
away from the original troll, willjust start regenerating anyway.
Jeremy Vine (25:04):
And at what point does it become you?
It's a little bit ofTheseus' Boat as well.
It's like which one is the, is the, you?
Oh, the Ship of Theseus, I should say.
Danilo Vujevic (25:11):
Like in the example, it's that they start growing from
the finger, which, which implies Ikind of have to regenerate a brain.
And at which point is it the sametroll or is it a different troll?
And they
Lucas (25:22):
oh yeah.
Danilo Vujevic (25:23):
and the memories and surely they have
a brain cause they're humanoid.
So you would imagine their brainis in, not in their fingertip.
Which is where memories arestored as far as we know.
And I think it's broadlyapplicable to 99.9% of humanoids.
Maybe that's what I would argue actually.
Now I've, I've thought it out andspoken out, maybe in my world at
(25:45):
the troll would regenerate at thefingertip, but just be like, ah, why
have you bought me into this world?
And just be like, this is ahorrible experience and I'm, I I'm
pissed and I know nothing aboutanything, cause I'm a neutral.
which would be hilarious.
I'd love to play that like a trollbeing born and there were eagerly
(26:05):
waiting their message for it.
Just to be like in agony.
I was just angry at being bornin such a horrible manner.
Jeremy Vine (26:16):
And I love the idea of a wireless troll of sending messages.
It's like, I feel this probablyworks in an evil campaign.
If you, if you want to show your playersthat somebody is a really bad guy, that
is what you have them, or you have themsend, like they just send a hand and then
suddenly an entire troll pops out of itand goes, I've got a message for you.
(26:38):
What, what on earth is going on here?
And now they're going to find a troll too.
So.
Lucas (26:44):
Oh, yeah, of course naturally.
Jeremy Vine (26:46):
That's a good way to do the quantum ogre as well.
You just have them show up withlike a little troll head that
suddenly pops up and you've gota full troll coming out of it.
Lucas (26:56):
Yeah.
Um, I call it the kick, the dog moment,like in the same way that the hero has to
save the cat, the villain has to kick thepuppy and, uh, this would be a great way.
Like there's always that thingthat villains do to let them
know it's okay to hate them.
Usually it's they'rehard on their lackeys.
Jeremy Vine (27:14):
Crossing that moral event horizons, like how could
you be mean to that person?
We thought you were a good, bad guy,but you're actually just fully evil.
Whereas I like to have the pet thedog moment, uh, which is not basically
the opposite where you have thevillain, do something nice and show
that they do have on a insert inregards to just their beliefs, uh, more
(27:36):
important than the rest of the world.
Jarrod Jahoda (27:38):
I would probably have it as like a big, bad wizard
type character who has essentiallylittle jars filled with bits of
trolls from all of his lieutenants.
Like that's how you becamea Lieutenant for him, right?
Like you had to go out andslay a troll and dice it up.
And like, you don't know why hedoesn't tell you until afterwards.
(27:59):
And he's like, all right,you're a Lieutenant.
Here's your bit of troll.
This is what you do with it.
And this is what I do with it.
And if it ever starts growing, youbetter report here on the double with
all your armies or whatever it is.
And so like all, and maybethat's the adventuring hook.
Every time they defeat one of thelieutenants, they find like this
glass vial that just has like a oneinch cube of rotting flesh in it.
(28:23):
No reason.
And eventually they identify that it's atroll and then they learn that it's like,
oh, they're all from different trolls.
And you know, so it's like this adventurelook like who is doing this and why?
Lucas (28:35):
Yeah, this is messed up.
We got,
Jarrod Jahoda (28:37):
Yeah.
I don't know who's doing this, but theygot some issues they need a counselor.
Meanwhile, like troll wizard herein the back is like, yes, yes.
Succumb to my plans!
Lucas (28:52):
Oh man, can I put troll wizard on the list?
Cause I want to do that.
Jarrod Jahoda (28:57):
Yeah.
You know, there's like Grushek the TrollWizard who has like become the predominant
troll in his area because he's justkilled all the other trolls to use them
as early warning triggers or whatever.
Lucas (29:09):
Oh man.
Jarrod Jahoda (29:10):
I liked his idea.
I'm glad we've talked about this.
I'm going to use this.
Lucas (29:14):
If this becomes anything, like if you ever write that out, let me know.
I will play test the heck out of it.
Jarrod Jahoda (29:20):
I love it
Lucas (29:21):
I just.
So many of these are, arebetter off in the DM's toolbox.
Jarrod Jahoda (29:26):
Now.
And in five V specifically, playercharacters are super powerful.
So why would you givethem something like that?
Leave that as like a bad guy togive the bad guy an edge, you know,
Lucas (29:38):
Yeah.
And talking of like morally ambiguousvillains, um, who do you have to be to,
to even to conceive of this and then, youknow, muscle through and actually do it?
Jarrod Jahoda (29:51):
uh, I think you have to have been picked on in
a playground a lot and have a, avery vengeful sense of justice.
Danilo Vujevic (30:00):
Out of everything we've discussed, this is the most plausible
and the most grounded, I think, as youput it, because it is apart from one very
literal rules as written, utilization ofthe rules is otherwise completely mundane.
Um, the only caveats would be thisagain, it's always, it's always because
(30:28):
of the implication for the waste90 fans out there, uh, with me and.
You know, when my players to do this,then there might be some questions
around like kind of the grim realityof what they are attempting to do and
any witnesses and so on and so on.
Otherwise, no, it, you know,if it were a big, bad evil
(30:52):
guy then yeah, it's plausible.
I think what else thatalone is it's plausible, but
unlikely for various reasons.
One being is that I hope my playercharacters wouldn't get there
because not that they will haveto be heroes, but even pushing it.
This is pushing the definition of heroics.
(31:13):
And secondly, my specific big,bad would not resort to something
is, beneath him as, as well.
This is, um, And I would like tothink that many other big bads would
have more sophisticated means of longrange communicate, uh, that doesn't
(31:34):
revolve harrowing experience evenfor the most gruesome of goblins.
Lucas (31:42):
Can we call this counter cheese?
Like I see your cheese andI raise you more cheese.
Rebecca Gray (31:50):
here is stinkier cheese.
Steve's over here grimacing at me.
Steve Myers (31:54):
Well, I don't like it.
Like three, five had clones as well.
Like there was a clone smell in thepsionics, so you could actually make
clones of people and that all just, Ican't man, I can't my brain, my brain
refuses to be involved in any of that.
It's it's a nightmare.
It is a logistical nightmare.
What if you're all the same exact size?
All of the cubes, same exact size.
(32:15):
What happens.
Rebecca Gray (32:21):
Yeah, I don't know.
Could you cube something?
All the, the exact same sizethat let's be real is isn't that
Lucas (32:28):
Yeah to what
Steve Myers (32:29):
I, imagine I could get two cubes out of it.
Two cubes, the exact same size,and then burn the rest of it.
Lucas (32:34):
Just statistically speaking
Steve Myers (32:35):
two fingers.
Exact same size, both.
Yeah.
Like here, here's where we're at.
And now, now what happens?
I don't want to like, yeah, no, Iknow this is no, I'm sorry guys.
Just it doesn't work.
That's not the way trolls work.
You guys are wrong on so many levels.
You've kept a troll captive.
Lucas (32:54):
Your cheese scientists were too busy wondering whether they
could to ask whether they should.
Thanks for listening to Making a Monster.
If this episode has entertainedor enlightened you in any way,
please share it with the peoplewho play D and D with you.
Your recommendation will go along way to helping people trust
me with their time and attention.
(33:15):
And it's a real gift to meand the creators I feature.
You could also leave me a like, or afive star review on Spotify, iTunes,
or your podcast player of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really doeshelp new listeners discover the show.
If you really like what I'm doing,you can support me through the book of
extinction, a project I'm creating withMage Hand Press that enables D and D
(33:36):
players to make a real difference in theclimate crisis and rapidly accelerating
mass extinction by telling the storiesof the animals that we have already lost.
There are already five episodesof Making a Monster about
the creatures in that book.
So set this podcast feed to newest firstand take a journey with me into a world
wilder and more fascinating than youprobably thought it could be special.
(34:00):
Thanks to my collaborators onthese exploit monsters episodes.
Jeremy Vine (34:03):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.
You can find me on social media onTwitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,
or you can listen to my podcastsTell Me About Your D&D Character,
which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV
Jarrod Jahoda (34:18):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
I'm one half of the creative team.
Matt is the other half, or you cancatch Matt and I on Newly Forged,
which is our Twitch stream D&D game.
It's a homebrew game set in apost-apocalyptic magical world.
(34:39):
And, uh, you can follow us onInstagram, Twitter at mid LVL
adventure to keep updated.
And we've recently started releasingour podcast episodes on YouTube as well.
Danilo Vujevic (34:50):
I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcastwhere we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means inthe D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
that has been going on now for almost 65episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops
(35:12):
everything from your esoteric, left-field,weird things that you would never
attribute to D&D all the way to encountersand experience, and much more obvious
topics, including soft skills, such asfriendship and social and meta things such
(35:33):
as podcasts, which was a weird itself.
Naval Naval gazing.
One to record.
Rebecca Gray (35:39):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (35:41):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (35:42):
And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
It's a very different kind of podcast.
We're a little bit scripted, a littlebit improv and a whole lot of fun.
So we hope that you'll stop inand check us out and find out what
it's like when D&D meets radio.
Lucas (36:01):
We'll be back next week.
See you then!
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