April 11, 2022 • 36 mins
Get three extinct animals raised to life as monsters in D&D: https://www.scintilla.studio/extinction
Episode transcript: https://scintilla.studio/monster-extinction-florida-fairy-shrimp
Guides:
Tierra Curry, Senior Scientist at the Center for Biological Diversity
https://twitter.com/TierraMussel
Did you like this stat block? Let me know on Twitter: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter
"Extinction Theme" by Alexandre Miller, The Boy King of Idaho
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tierra Curry (00:01):
Oh my goodness.
That's amazing.
I love it.
Super strong and powerful, and it just
captures all the weirdness and complexity
of fairy shrimp because they're such
weirdos and they're so mysterious and you
don't necessarily think of "fairy shrimp"
as being tough, but they're so tough.
(00:23):
Like their cysts can live, they
can withstand drying, freezing
heat, solidity, outer space.
They're just like waiting for conditions
to be right to spring, back to life.
Lucas (00:33):
Hello, and welcome to Making a
Monster (00:34):
Extinction., The bite-sized
podcast, where we explore the
history of species extinct from the
real world and retell their stories
as Dungeons and Dragons monsters.
It's all a part of Book of
Extinction, a monster manual of
extinct species resurrected for D&D.
I and the team at Mage Hand Press are
proud to announce our partnership with
the Center for Biological Diversity
(00:56):
to protect endangered species by
raising money through the first
three monsters in the book before
it comes to Kickstarter in 2022.
The Center directly inspired one of
the first entries I wrote for the
book through their advocacy for the
now extinct Florida fairy shrimp.
One of the scientists who worked
on that petition is Tierra Curry.
And I asked her to take a look at the
(01:16):
monster I came up with and how our artists
had rendered it based on some of the
earliest advocacy work in her career.
This is a story of near misses and perfect
timing, more than 10 years in the making.
And I'm so excited to share it.
We'll be taking an exclusive sneak peek
at new art from Book of Extinction.
So if you want to see what we're seeing in
(01:37):
this interview, you can visit the episode
page at scintilla.studio/extinction, or
just follow the link in the description.
Tierra Curry (01:44):
So I'm Tierra Curry.
I'm a senior scientist at the Center
for Biological Diversity, and I direct
our Saving Life on Earth campaign, which
is a focus campaign to raise awareness
of extinction and getting people
involved in the fight to end extinction.
Lucas (01:59):
You know, I'm a journalist by
training and a game designer by choice,
and neither of those are conservation
scientists, so I'm really grateful to have
you on board to keep me on the straight
and narrow and make sure that the research
that I've done matches your experience
of the world and this field in particular
Tierra Curry (02:19):
I think you're pretty
solidly moving into being a bonafide
conservationist with all of the
advocacy and research that you're doing.
I think you can add that to your title.
Lucas (02:30):
I will, thank you.
I wanted to be there when we talked
about the Florida fairy shrimp, because
the way that I generated the list of
extinct animals that we were going to
be using was by just Googling lists of
extinct animals and, looking at some
and a couple of books on the subject.
(02:52):
Then just kind of, you know, what were
the ones that showed up every single time?
The, the Tasmanian tiger, the passenger
pigeon, the Carolina parakeet, those
consistently make the top of the list
and then kind of working my way down
to fill out another 70 to 100 slots.
And one of the ones that came up was
your press release on the Florida
(03:12):
fairy shrimp and the Florida rainbow
snake, which is back in 2011.
And it's kind of, it's kind of funny
in a way you could say that that press
release is the whole reason that, we
were able to make this partnership
happen because I don't know that I
would have, I like to think I would
have run into the Center eventually.
But I don't think it would have been
nearly as cool if if we didn't have this
Tierra Curry (03:35):
Yeah, I
think it's really cool too.
And I'm actually excited that you kind of
made this reveal all mysterious because
I've been in my head this morning.
I was like, what's a Fairy
Shrimp going to look like?
Which is one of the questions we've had
about this species all along, right?
Like no one has a photo of it.
There's a couple of specimens
in jars, so I'm really excited
(03:55):
to see it brought to life.
Lucas (03:56):
Let me paint a picture for you.
I wanted the Florida fairy shrimp on
the list and I didn't start working on
it until after I had given a brief to
my artist, but it was late October and
I suddenly realized just how little we
know about the Florida fairy shrimp.
And I was trying to figure out
how on earth we're going to do it.
(04:18):
I worked on it all day and I got
nowhere and I gave up and went to bed.
And at 11 o'clock, I had it, I
got up, I came back downstairs
and I wrote for like three hours
and that's how we got, but we got,
Tierra Curry (04:35):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
I see that.
I see that The Book of
Extinction first page.
Should I scroll forward?
Lucas (04:42):
yep.
There's 1, 2, 3 others.
Before you get to the Florida
fairy shrimp, I'm hugely
excited about each of these.
Tierra Curry (04:51):
This is the most
words anyone's written about
the Florida fairy shrimp.
It's totally living again through this.
Oh my goodness!
That's amazing!
I love it!
Super strong and powerful, and it
just captures all the weirdness and
complexity of fairy shrimp because
they're, they're such weirdos and
(05:11):
they're so mysterious and you don't
necessarily think of fairy shrimp as
being tough, but they're so tough.
Like their cysts can live, they
can withstand drying, freezing
heat, solidity, outer space.
They're just like waiting for conditions
to be right to spring, back to life.
And then there they are.
And like the, the energy behind
this picture totally captures that.
(05:33):
It's just waiting for the right moment.
And then boom, there it is.
It's perfect.
There are still just such little weirdos.
Like they swim upside down.
They're see-through.
One of the problems with the Florida fairy
shrimp is like, it might come to life once
every 15 years when conditions are right.
So if someone would have to be there
at the right moment to, to find it.
(05:55):
It, so it makes their conservation
challenging too, because you're trying
to protect an area where someone might
not have seen something for, for decades.
And, and because you're doing this project
and you have this awesome illustration
where people are going to be curious
about the fairy shrimp and maybe like, be
willing to go look at it, or if they're
out and they see something weird in a
puddle, they can put it on ice naturalists
then, and it could be an obscure
(06:16):
undiscovered or rediscover fairy shrimp.
Lucas (06:18):
Is it true that these are this
in the same type as a sea monkeys?
Do you remember?
Tierra Curry (06:27):
I do remember seeing
monkeys like you, you would buy the
little kid and add water or send away
for them and they would send them to you.
I don't know what species sea monkeys are,
but that probably like, it sounds right.
Lucas (06:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a order Anastroca, that also
includes brine shrimp, which are
more commonly known as sea monkeys.
And I did get to write about this.
It's called diapause.
The ability to enter a dormant state
where growth and metabolism are arrested.
Tierra Curry (06:55):
And the diapause
for these guys, conditions can
just go crazy and they'd pop up
again when conditions are right.
So they can withstand fire or drought
or a blizzard, probably not going
to get a blizzard in Florida, but
they're just so resilient until someone
comes along and paves their habitat.
(07:15):
And then, and then that's the end.
But short of that, their whole
life strategy is to withstand
hardship and then spring into
action at the right point in time.
They're a perfect monster.
Lucas (07:26):
When we talk about this on
the writing team, it's history and
lore, so history is what it actually
was and how it actually came to be.
And then lore is the stuff that
I'm making up for the game.
And there's, you know, usually
between 600 to a thousand words
of, of history, assuming I can
find it, this one's a little short.
And then for the history section I've
added the stat block, so you can see
(07:48):
on the top of page 12, this is if I
were to just take the fairy shrimp
as it was known, in the real world.
These are the numbers and abilities
and traits that it would have.
So every creature has, you know, armor
class, hit points, speed, and these
six different statistics that define
its ability to interact with the world.
Three physical (08:08):
strength, dexterity,
and constitution, and then three mental:
intelligence, wisdom and charisma.
And for, for this creature,
all of them are very low.
Cause it's a tiny beast.
It's the smallest animal
category that I can make it.
And then I've, I've rewritten
(08:29):
diapause for Dungeons and Dragons.
And I think if Wizards of the Coast had
had something called diapause in the game,
they might call it drought resistance.
Tierra Curry (08:42):
Yeah, that, that make sense.
That's definitely one of the,
their life history strategies.
Like the whole reason they're found
in these small bodies of water is
to avoid predation because they're
such a key part of the food chain.
And so by popping up in these
very temporary pools, they
avoid the larger predators that
have to have permanent water.
(09:02):
So drought resistance is their
key to survival over the long run.
Lucas (09:07):
I want to look at one more thing
I have your press release and I want
to talk about how, how that came to be.
So this was, October 5th, 2011, a
little more than 10 years to the day from
when I wrote this entry (09:21):
" The Florida
fairy shrimp is an all too common gut
punch story of too little too late.
The species was known from a single
population living in a pool, just
south of Gainesville, Florida.
It was originally described in 1956.
It was reclassified as an
entirely separate genus in 2002,
(09:42):
making it even more unique.
Returning to review the animal
for endangered status in 2011,
researchers found the pool had
been paved over by developers,
rendering the species extinct."
Did I get it right?
Is that kinda how it, went?
Tierra Curry (09:55):
Yes.
So one interesting detail is the
scientist who found the fairy shrimp,
he collected a couple specimens in
the 1930s, had them like in a jar in
his workshop and didn't publish the
description of the species until 1956.
So it became known as an official species
to science in 56, but he had collected
(10:17):
it in 19 I think 1939, the late 1930s.
And so the area where the vernal
pools were, where he got it, was then
developed, but there's still a lot
of natural habitat around that area.
So there are people, there are scientists
at the Florida Natural Areas Inventory who
think that it could still be out there.
(10:39):
It's just that, because it can
go into diapause for more than a
decade, a researcher would have
to be there at exactly the right
time in this undeveloped habitat.
So we have no evidence that this,
that this particular species
still exists because fairy shrimp,
because of their life history
strategy, they're highly endemic.
They're just found in these little
areas cause they only spring to life
(11:00):
in these temporary pools of water.
So of course you're going to have like
a lot of species in different areas.
But this one, because there are
natural areas not far from where it was
discovered, it could still be out there.
And so the scientist that I talked
to in Florida, he wants people in
the Gainesville area like when it
rains to go look in puddles and, and
(11:23):
take pictures of the fairy shrimp or
collect a few and send them to him
because it might still be out there.
Because the whole area, it's
not like Miami, the whole
area hasn't been developed.
There's still some natural
areas around this particular
locality, south of Gainesville.
Lucas (11:38):
That's amazing.
Tierra Curry (11:38):
It is!
And I think like, because you're
doing this project, people
might become interested in it.
And so there's a greater chance that
citizen scientists would be like,
cause see, I thought that's what
Fish and Wildlife Service would do.
When we petitioned for endangered
species act protection.
I, I was a lot more idealistic and younger
and naive about how things actually work.
And I was like, "Stop the presses!
(11:59):
It could be extinct!
Go find it!
We don't want to lose a species."
And I didn't realize that there there's
not that much of a sense of urgency,
that I still think that there should be.
I think there should
be a sense of urgency.
If it's out there, let's protect
all of the areas where it lives.
but it could be out there.
Lucas (12:17):
Oh, there's two things
I want to hit with that.
One is that I have the, because
the internet is amazing, I
have the article by Ralph W.
Dexter, I have his description
of the fairy shrimp.
okay.
I'm not going to be able to pronounce this
at all, but here we go, "A morphological
(12:39):
re-evaluation of the anostracan families
Linderiellidae and Polyartemiidae, with a
redescription of the linderiellid Dexteria
floridana," our Florida fairy shrimp.
From what I understand this paper's
argument that the Florida fairy shrimp
can be thought of as a distinct species
(13:00):
hinges on a morphological re-evaluation
of the creature in particularly,
the way its genitals are shaped.
Tierra Curry (13:07):
Yeah,
that's really common in
Lucas (13:10):
Is it really?
Tierra Curry (13:11):
Yes, spring snails in
particular, the species are based
on the shape of their penises.
And so they have like different
lobes or knobs or, or ducts.
And that's how you have, like,
you have to collect them and
get an electron microscope and
like study them in great detail.
And so the 2002 paper that, that
(13:32):
reclassifies this one, a lot of it
is based on its penile morphology.
Lucas (13:39):
That's amazing.
That's a detail that didn't make the book.
There's a couple of things
based on this conversation.
I'm probably going to have
to add back into the entry.
Even at a second cut, I don't
know if penile morphology
is going to be one of them.
Tierra Curry (13:51):
Just to add, to
like all of this strange things
about this animal, right?
Another super interesting thing about
them is as they go through their different
larval stages of development, they have
different numbers of eyes and different
numbers of arms and legs, like the instars
gain complexity, they start out with one
eye spot and they end up with two eye
stalks or they're started out like with
(14:13):
a couple appendages and then end up with
11 or it's just, it's they're so weird!
I know if you were trying to just sit
down and brainstorm up a super weird
little monster, like I wouldn't have been
creative enough to come up with this.
Starts with one eye, ends up with
two; starts out with six arms
and legs ends, up with 11 pairs.
(14:37):
22, I guess.
Lucas (14:39):
That's one of the particular
difficulties of designing for
Dungeons and Dragons is because it
has this, this really interesting
dichotomy between hero and monster.
Mostly for copywriting reasons,
anything that is not a player
character, anything with one of
these stat blocks is a monster.
So a person, a frog, a tiny shrimp
(15:00):
fairy, all considered monsters
and monsters don't level up.
Heroes level up.
That's what heroes do.
You go from level one through 20, and it
might take you three to five years, but
that's kind of the course of the game.
So there's a weird disconnect when you
try to bring naturalism and conservation,
(15:21):
too much verisimilitude to the real world
to Dungeons and Dragons because you can't
necessarily write a creature that goes
through several stages of development.
I had to kind of pick one and I might
be able to, I might be able to use the
same statlock block for both the for
both the larva and the shrimp, or,
(15:41):
and the adult, but I can cause some of
these numbers are so small and there's
so little here that I don't think
mechanically, it would change much.
But I wish I could have told people that
it starts with one eye in three legs
and ends up with two eyes and 22 legs.
Cause that's crazy.
Tierra Curry (16:03):
Yeah, three
pairs of legs starts with three
Lucas (16:05):
Oh, three pairs.
Tierra Curry (16:06):
pairs.
But even like even egg is what's so
amazing because the tough little egg
cyst is what can survive everything.
Like sometimes I wish I could just take
a break from life, an existent, wait for
things, things to improve, or just like
take a long break and then come out, "Pow!
I'm ready now!
Lucas (16:31):
The fairy shrimp, or
rather the shrimp fairy, cause
I kind of switched it around.
I needed them to have distinct names and
I, I didn't know where to go with this.
So I'm flipping it around.
This is a, to my mind, this is an actual
fairy, in the world of the game and
it would necessarily be a shrimp fairy.
It's tiny, it's an inch and a half tall.
I didn't change that bit.
And this one does have three
(16:52):
pairs of appendages and, but
it, but it has the two eyes.
Tierra Curry (16:57):
One thing that I really
like about this drawing, like as a
human prone to anthropomorphizing
things, is it looks like a tough
human, like the stature of it.
I can, I can relate to it.
It looks like a, like a superhero
human, like figure, even though
it has too many arms and legs.
And I
Lucas (17:17):
yeah, I didn't expect that
and that's all down to Lucas.
Our artist is also named Lucas,
so it's a little bit confusing.
But that's down to, to his genius.
Cause I gave him this bizarre little
alien weirdo and he came back with
something that was, that we could really
relate with something that sort of
conformed to logical anatomy at least for,
(17:39):
for something that could be considered
a humanoid within the span of the game.
And Dungeons and Dragons does have some
history of insectoid creatures that
we're drawing on for this, there's a
race called the thri-keen, I think that's
a Planescape one from way back when.
This isn't entirely unprecedented
in, in the D&D world.
(18:00):
But it, it did, you know, it kind
of gave us the language or a way of
interpreting these sort of exoskeleton
forms into something that's recognizably
human, something that a player
character would want to relate to.
This is what I gave to, to my artist.
And then I'm going to show you the sketch.
The thing that got me out of
bed was that the fairy shrimp
(18:22):
are an inch and a half tall.
And the other thing you might not know
about D&D is that it operates on a scale.
One 60th, so that one inch is five
feet, which means that anything that's
an inch tall, if I were to put it
on my table, while I'm playing this
game would be the size of a person.
(18:44):
So there's a weird consonance here between
a creature that's an inch and a half long,
in the real world compared to a game where
an inch and a half tall is, you know, what
we accept as being the size of a person.
By making them an inch and a half tall
in the, in the game itself, I can kind
of give a D&D player, this weird sort
of meta experience where, when their
(19:05):
players encounter this in the world of,
of imagination, it's going to be the
size of a D&D miniature something that
they have a real point of reference for.
so with them being the size of D&D
minis, I wanted them to have a culture
based on performance and storytelling.
So I've changed all of the statistics here
(19:26):
between the history and the lore version.
Its physical statistics
are still very low.
It has a strength of one out of
20, which is the, you know, there's
nothing that this little inch
and a half tall thing can move.
But it has an extremely high
wisdom, 19 out of 20 and a high
intelligence, 16 out of 20.
So these are creatures that know
(19:47):
things and understand the world
and pass their memories together.
And because this is a world of magic, we
can give them a kind of telepathy, a kind
of a way of communicating with creatures,
much, much larger than them, and telling
them things that they, the fairy shrimp
might have remembered from long ago.
Tierra Curry (20:05):
That's really neat
that like the size connection
worked out and that you put all of
that together and the dimensions.
Lucas (20:14):
Thanks.
I was trying to figure out
how to pose this thing.
Cause I knew I wanted it to be humanoid
and I knew it was going to have a
long tail and weird feathery face
things and an odd number of legs.
It was like, how in the world am I
gonna make this make sense immediately
to someone who's picking up this book?
So we went to modern dance.
We went to Cirque de Solei
and contemporary choreography.
(20:35):
And that's how we got this power pose.
Tierra Curry (20:37):
Yeah.
Based on like the it's
swimming upside down, right?
Lucas (20:41):
Yeah.
Tierra Curry (20:42):
Kind of really
gymnastic and athletic and adaptable.
Lucas (20:47):
We always get a sketch,
so we have time to make some
changes before he commits to
rendering and painting everything.
So these are the sketches that I got back.
Tierra Curry (20:56):
Oh, wow.
Wow.
There's just so much personality in these.
I like the power pose that
you ultimately went with.
Lucas (21:10):
Thanks.
There's a few different poses here.
All of which are drawn directly
from reference photos, from
Cirque de Solei and modern dance.
And, the one we ultimately went with is
the second one that he came back with.
But there's, when you see them all kind of
in the same way, there's, there's a real,
there's a real magic to this because you
get, you start to get a sense of how this
version of it might ambulate in 3d space.
(21:33):
The third pose here was our runner up
because it has so much personality.
It has a lot of movement to
it with the feathers kind of
moving back from its face.
And despite the fact that it has these
stocked multifaceted eyes, like I can
almost read that expression even though
there's hardly an expression to read.
Tierra Curry (21:54):
Absolutely.
I think that one looks like
really friendly and chipper.
Like, I'm going to figure this out.
I'm going to persist.
And I like the other ones too.
It's kind of got martial arts influence
and like gymnastics influence.
I just love how much character and
power and vibrancy you've given this
extinct species so that even in the
(22:17):
imaginary realm, people can, can
picture it and honor, honor its memory.
And like it can live on
in the human imagination.
Lucas (22:27):
Yeah, and that is one of the other
things I think I sacrificed to die a pause
in favor of, of making that more of a
point because the lore that I've written
for this creature is that these are,
these are creatures that live in a place
called the Feywild, which is just kind
of an amalgamation of a lot of different
cultures talking about the other world
(22:48):
or the underworld or, the mirror world.
Alice's adventures in Wonderland
is, is a good example.
It's, it's a world that's slightly
askew from the rest of the world.
It's a world where all of the fairy
stories of Titania and Oberon come from.
I've put this creature there
because it just felt right.
It's kind of where all the weirdos go.
(23:10):
I liked the idea of this creature
being in the Feywild, a world
where everyone is scheming.
Nothing is, as it seems, and you
can't take anything at face value.
So I wanted this creature to be
in this world, in these pools
where they're really grounded.
And they have a memory of how things were
before and they're able to literally share
(23:31):
it with each other so that each, each
shrimp fairy remembers all the experiences
of its fellows past and present.
"Though a single shrimp fairy might live
for no longer than a few decades, it has
the wisdom and maturity of the entire
population of shrimp fairies that has ever
existed in the pool in which it inhabits."
Tierra Curry (23:50):
I love it that you
grabbed a deep time there because
these are really ancient creatures.
They've been on the planet
for such a long time.
I think they all the way
back to the Cambrian.
And so that's the perfect skill or
attribute to give them this long memory.
Lucas (24:08):
The other part of that is that
if you're moving through the Feywild,
someone with a strong and clear memory
is going to be a lifeline for you
because memory is weird in the Feywild.
Time moves differently.
The things that you remember
might not have even been real.
So for this thing to, to be there as
kind of a point of a point of reference
(24:30):
or an anchor for your experience in
that world it's going to give it,
it's going to give it a real real, or
it's going to give it that urgency.
Like you, you need this thing on your side
and if you upset them, they will remember,
and you might not ever see one again.
Which is, I think me being a little
bit heavy handed with my own sort of
attitudes about extinction, and playing
(24:51):
to that idea that if they are endemic to
a single pool, and then they're gone that.
We can't get that back.
And there's a real value to that in,
in the memories of the way things
were in the Cambrin in the information
that we might've gotten about how
to make other things what kind of
technologies or science we could have
drawn from the way these weirdos are
(25:12):
put together and the way they swim.
So I, I jettisoned diapause in
favor of something a bit broader.
Tierra Curry (25:23):
I think it's great.
And I think that like them
disappearing forever it's reality.
Like they can survive almost
anything except for pavement
and like a lot of pollution.
Lucas (25:37):
Oh man, that slaps:
"anything but pavement."
I think there's one last thing to
show you and then we might be done.
this was the final product and
you've seen, you'll see it, but
there is a color variant here.
I thought about doing something
with it, where this is kind
of the male and the female.
Although I think if we wanted
to do male and female, we'd
(25:57):
have to change the feathers.
Tierra Curry (26:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, add, add the appendages.
I think both these colors are great.
It's kind of like a gold and a rose gold.
In real life, they are pretty much clear,
which is another of the weird things
about them, but I'd like the, the gold,
because it's appealing and they like it.
It's hard to depict clear things.
Lucas (26:22):
Yeah, I think it would have
been asking a lot of my artists to
not only figure out how to pose this
thing and how its anatomy worked, but
then go ahead and make it transparent.
And now you have to figure out
its digestive tract and where its
lungs are and whether it has any
Tierra Curry (26:38):
No, for sure.
I hear you.
I have it.
I have a tattoo of a clear wing butterfly
and everyone who sees it, who doesn't
know about clear wing butterflies is like,
oh, are you getting to get that finished?
Lucas (26:49):
no, no, it's done.
Tierra Curry (26:52):
When I, when I first
saw one, like it was sitting on
a leaf in the Amazon and you, you
literally see through it and they
have like a little dot of color.
So you just see this little
thought of color moving around.
And I was with a friend and
we were both like of a little
thought, well, what was that thing?
And then it lands and you
totally see through it.
And I was like, I'm getting one.
That's so cool.
(27:13):
But if you don't know about them,
then you think it's not done so I
totally defer to adding color to the
artwork for the purpose of mass appeal.
Lucas (27:25):
And we do have the
luxury of saying, this isn't
quite what the history is.
This isn't quite reality.
It's, it's kind of a hyper real thing.
And I want people to
Tierra Curry (27:33):
be,
Lucas (27:34):
Yeah.
And I want people to learn to
walk that line between what they
experienced and what they see and
what, what they imagine it could
be, because I I want them to imagine
these things as great and charismatic
and beautiful and full of potential.
Even if that comes at the cost of a few
of the, the real-world details of it
(27:56):
being too transparent and upside down
and tiny and not actually a person.
Tierra Curry (28:03):
Well, that's
the beauty of this project.
I mean, this animal is extinct.
There are no photos of it.
The only place where it can still
live is in the minds of people.
And so you're giving it a life, a suite
of powers and an audience to think
about it and help it continue to live.
I think extinction is a political choice.
It's doesn't have to
(28:23):
be, it's not inevitable.
And so the more people who know about
it and are passionate about it, we
can put pressure on political leaders
and at all stages of government,
local state national to get people.
Involved and committed to not losing
any more species to extinction.
And so I'm excited to be partnering with
The Book of Extinction because you're
(28:45):
bringing plants and animals that we've
lost back to life and reaching a whole new
audience of passionate, smart, interested
people who can help keep the memory
of what we've lost alive, but also get
involved in the campaign to make sure we
don't lose any more species to extinction.
Lucas (29:03):
Where do people find out more
about the Center for Biological Diversity?
Tierra Curry (29:08):
So you can go to save life
on earth.org that lands on our extinction
crisis campaign page, or you can go to
biological diversity.org and there you'll
find an overview of all of our programs,
environmental health oceans, climate law.
Population and sustainability and
dangered species, just all of the
work that we're doing at multiple
(29:29):
levels to, to try to end extinction,
Lucas (29:34):
Fantastic.
Tierra Curry (29:37):
I'm gonna do some
more homework on fairy shrimp
anatomy and get back to you.
I think this is like a lovely
and fascinating rabbit hole.
Lucas (29:48):
lovely.
Yeah, please do.
Cause, this was one of the ones that,
just from the research that I was
able to do, I was at a bit of a loss.
I was worried that I was going to
have to cut this one, because I didn't
think I had enough to fill the history
section, to fill 600 words on it.
And, I think the only reason I didn't was
that I had already given the brief to the
(30:09):
artist, I'd already sort of decided that
this was what we were going to work on.
And so I was, I was forced
to, to stick with it.
And it's another one of those bizarre near
misses that, yeah, it's, it's still here.
It's still a part of the
project through some of the most
bizarre, possible circumstances.
Tierra Curry (30:26):
You're a leading author
now on the Florida fairy shrimp, because
it is not, it is not a crowded field.
You've spent as many hours
investigating it as anyone.
And you're publishing something about it.
Like as many words as anyone else has
written, since it's two descriptions.
Lucas (30:41):
Oh, no, I hadn't
even thought about that.
I have been keeping a bibliography.
So it is my hope that people can
check my work when this comes out.
And it, that is like, that is really
encouraging that, oh man, we're, we're
going to have to make this with a
(31:03):
certain level of scientific rigor because
it's just the only, in some cases it
might be the only thing about this.
And I don't want to lead people astray.
Tierra Curry (31:14):
Yeah.
I mean, there's not, this
was one of those species.
There's three papers.
There's the petition we wrote to get
protection and there's the denial
the Fish and Wildlife Service wrote.
And now there's your Book of
Extinction account and that's it.
That's cumulative.
Lucas (31:32):
Ooh.
All right.
New goal (31:33):
let's make Wikipedia.
Tierra Curry (31:38):
I think Wiki right
now is just the, the account from
our petition in fish and wildlife
service saying it's extinct.
So we could totally go edit that
Wikipedia article to put a link to The
Book of Extinction, because there's
like a pop culture section that they
do, like references and culture.
So we can absolutely link that.
Lucas (31:59):
All right.
So new metric of success for this,
not just can we get on Wikipedia
for this, but how, like what
percentage of the things we cover?
Can we do good enough work on that
we will make the Wikipedia page?
Tierra Curry (32:14):
Yeah, I think for all
of the species, like the more recently
declared extinct species, there's
just not very much known about them
because they were discovered and then
their habitat was ruined and then they
were declared extinct and we don't
have any information from the interim.
I want to circle back just a second
to like the tight storyline of
"discovered, lost, declared extinct"
(32:36):
because unfortunately the Florida
fairy shrimp, isn't an outlier there.
It's the story of dozens of quiet
extinctions that have happened
around the country, the Tatum cave
beetle, the, beaver pond Mar Estonia
spring snail,, you have the original
descriptions and the so much development
dams, pavement pollution happened.
And then they're just gone and
we never got to learn all of
(32:57):
the amazing things about them.
And so people like in general,
the, the modern lifestyle and the
way that we pave everything and
grow food with tons of pesticides
and have tons of stuff like that.
That is the villainous side of this.
But like the hero protagonist side of
this is we can make things different.
We can change.
We don't have to live in the
(33:18):
world the way it is right now.
And it's just enough people.
Waking up to that and realizing
that, I mean, it's suicidal of
us to keep a wiping out nature.
And assuming that it's separate from
who we are and separate from human
wellbeing, by wiping out nature and
paving everything we're hurting ourselves.
And it doesn't have to be that way.
Lucas (33:42):
Okay.
That's where we're at.
That's what we're doing.
Cause yeah, heroes change.
Villains have stat blocks and
heroes have character sheets and
your character sheet can change.
You can level up.
Tierra Curry (33:52):
And we really, I mean, we
just have to put so much pressure on.
Policymakers so that things, the
status quo doesn't keep happening.
We don't keep burning fossil fuels.
We don't keep looking at every patch
of forest as a future subdivision.
We like set those areas aside and take
concrete actions to fight climate change,
to have cleaner energy, to have fair
(34:15):
energy that doesn't disproportionately
harm marginalized communities.
And the, I mean, part of it is
just not getting overwhelmed by all
of it and finding an action that
you can take and then taking it.
And that's like the antidote
to personal despair.
And it's also the way to end extinction
is to just find something that you can
(34:36):
do and do it and not feel like there's so
much bad stuff, but I can't do anything.
Lucas (34:43):
Yeah.
And that's what this, that's what
this project is here to do itself.
In the cosmic scheme of
things, it's so small.
And it's such a short first step.
But I think it's one of the most
incredibly powerful things that we can do.
And it's one of the things that
D&D players are best suited
to do is to tell stories.
I haven't written a
(35:03):
prescription with this.
These are all tools.
These are all places to start.
And if you bring this to your table
and you suddenly, and if, you know,
you sit there for three or four hours
and you go through this story in the
way that only D&D can, where you're
present and immersive and emotionally
invested that I think to my, to my mind,
(35:23):
and the reason I'm doing this, that's.
Yeah, that's the best
thing I know how to do.
And I think it's the thing that D&D
players can do better than anybody else.
So this is the opportunity that
we have and kind of the first
step that I'm giving people.
Yeah.
Tierra Curry (35:40):
I am so grateful for
you and for this project, I think
it's creative and wonderful, and it's
going to be, it's really going to
make a difference in the long run.
Lucas (35:51):
Tierra, thank you so
much for being here and taking
another hour to go over this.
I'm glad that you were as excited to
see this as I was to show you this.
Thanks for listening to Making a Monster.
Now's a great time to hit that
follow button and leave a five
star review on your podcast.
App of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really does
(36:11):
help new listeners discover the pod.
If you want to support The Book of
Extinction and endangered species
conservation at the same time, you
can visit the project's landing
page at scintilla.studio/extinction.
That's S C I N T I L L A dot
studio slash extinction to
download the first three monsters.
(36:32):
You can pay what you want for them.
And whatever we earn from that sale
will be donated directly to the
Center for Biological Diversity.
You can also keep up with the project
by joining our email list where I'll
be sharing more of the incredible,
true stories that surface through this
research or follow this podcast for more
episodes of Making a Monster (36:48):
Extinction.
Oh my goodness.
That's amazing.
I love it.
Super strong and powerful, and it just
captures all the weirdness and complexity
of fairy shrimp because they're such
weirdos and they're so mysterious and you
don't necessarily think of "fairy shrimp"
as being tough, but they're so tough.
(00:23):
Like their cysts can live, they
can withstand drying, freezing
heat, solidity, outer space.
They're just like waiting for conditions
to be right to spring, back to life.
Lucas (00:33):
Hello, and welcome to Making a
Monster (00:34):
Extinction., The bite-sized
podcast, where we explore the
history of species extinct from the
real world and retell their stories
as Dungeons and Dragons monsters.
It's all a part of Book of
Extinction, a monster manual of
extinct species resurrected for D&D.
I and the team at Mage Hand Press are
proud to announce our partnership with
the Center for Biological Diversity
(00:56):
to protect endangered species by
raising money through the first
three monsters in the book before
it comes to Kickstarter in 2022.
The Center directly inspired one of
the first entries I wrote for the
book through their advocacy for the
now extinct Florida fairy shrimp.
One of the scientists who worked
on that petition is Tierra Curry.
And I asked her to take a look at the
(01:16):
monster I came up with and how our artists
had rendered it based on some of the
earliest advocacy work in her career.
This is a story of near misses and perfect
timing, more than 10 years in the making.
And I'm so excited to share it.
We'll be taking an exclusive sneak peek
at new art from Book of Extinction.
So if you want to see what we're seeing in
(01:37):
this interview, you can visit the episode
page at scintilla.studio/extinction, or
just follow the link in the description.
Tierra Curry (01:44):
So I'm Tierra Curry.
I'm a senior scientist at the Center
for Biological Diversity, and I direct
our Saving Life on Earth campaign, which
is a focus campaign to raise awareness
of extinction and getting people
involved in the fight to end extinction.
Lucas (01:59):
You know, I'm a journalist by
training and a game designer by choice,
and neither of those are conservation
scientists, so I'm really grateful to have
you on board to keep me on the straight
and narrow and make sure that the research
that I've done matches your experience
of the world and this field in particular
Tierra Curry (02:19):
I think you're pretty
solidly moving into being a bonafide
conservationist with all of the
advocacy and research that you're doing.
I think you can add that to your title.
Lucas (02:30):
I will, thank you.
I wanted to be there when we talked
about the Florida fairy shrimp, because
the way that I generated the list of
extinct animals that we were going to
be using was by just Googling lists of
extinct animals and, looking at some
and a couple of books on the subject.
(02:52):
Then just kind of, you know, what were
the ones that showed up every single time?
The, the Tasmanian tiger, the passenger
pigeon, the Carolina parakeet, those
consistently make the top of the list
and then kind of working my way down
to fill out another 70 to 100 slots.
And one of the ones that came up was
your press release on the Florida
(03:12):
fairy shrimp and the Florida rainbow
snake, which is back in 2011.
And it's kind of, it's kind of funny
in a way you could say that that press
release is the whole reason that, we
were able to make this partnership
happen because I don't know that I
would have, I like to think I would
have run into the Center eventually.
But I don't think it would have been
nearly as cool if if we didn't have this
Tierra Curry (03:35):
Yeah, I
think it's really cool too.
And I'm actually excited that you kind of
made this reveal all mysterious because
I've been in my head this morning.
I was like, what's a Fairy
Shrimp going to look like?
Which is one of the questions we've had
about this species all along, right?
Like no one has a photo of it.
There's a couple of specimens
in jars, so I'm really excited
(03:55):
to see it brought to life.
Lucas (03:56):
Let me paint a picture for you.
I wanted the Florida fairy shrimp on
the list and I didn't start working on
it until after I had given a brief to
my artist, but it was late October and
I suddenly realized just how little we
know about the Florida fairy shrimp.
And I was trying to figure out
how on earth we're going to do it.
(04:18):
I worked on it all day and I got
nowhere and I gave up and went to bed.
And at 11 o'clock, I had it, I
got up, I came back downstairs
and I wrote for like three hours
and that's how we got, but we got,
Tierra Curry (04:35):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
I see that.
I see that The Book of
Extinction first page.
Should I scroll forward?
Lucas (04:42):
yep.
There's 1, 2, 3 others.
Before you get to the Florida
fairy shrimp, I'm hugely
excited about each of these.
Tierra Curry (04:51):
This is the most
words anyone's written about
the Florida fairy shrimp.
It's totally living again through this.
Oh my goodness!
That's amazing!
I love it!
Super strong and powerful, and it
just captures all the weirdness and
complexity of fairy shrimp because
they're, they're such weirdos and
(05:11):
they're so mysterious and you don't
necessarily think of fairy shrimp as
being tough, but they're so tough.
Like their cysts can live, they
can withstand drying, freezing
heat, solidity, outer space.
They're just like waiting for conditions
to be right to spring, back to life.
And then there they are.
And like the, the energy behind
this picture totally captures that.
(05:33):
It's just waiting for the right moment.
And then boom, there it is.
It's perfect.
There are still just such little weirdos.
Like they swim upside down.
They're see-through.
One of the problems with the Florida fairy
shrimp is like, it might come to life once
every 15 years when conditions are right.
So if someone would have to be there
at the right moment to, to find it.
(05:55):
It, so it makes their conservation
challenging too, because you're trying
to protect an area where someone might
not have seen something for, for decades.
And, and because you're doing this project
and you have this awesome illustration
where people are going to be curious
about the fairy shrimp and maybe like, be
willing to go look at it, or if they're
out and they see something weird in a
puddle, they can put it on ice naturalists
then, and it could be an obscure
(06:16):
undiscovered or rediscover fairy shrimp.
Lucas (06:18):
Is it true that these are this
in the same type as a sea monkeys?
Do you remember?
Tierra Curry (06:27):
I do remember seeing
monkeys like you, you would buy the
little kid and add water or send away
for them and they would send them to you.
I don't know what species sea monkeys are,
but that probably like, it sounds right.
Lucas (06:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a order Anastroca, that also
includes brine shrimp, which are
more commonly known as sea monkeys.
And I did get to write about this.
It's called diapause.
The ability to enter a dormant state
where growth and metabolism are arrested.
Tierra Curry (06:55):
And the diapause
for these guys, conditions can
just go crazy and they'd pop up
again when conditions are right.
So they can withstand fire or drought
or a blizzard, probably not going
to get a blizzard in Florida, but
they're just so resilient until someone
comes along and paves their habitat.
(07:15):
And then, and then that's the end.
But short of that, their whole
life strategy is to withstand
hardship and then spring into
action at the right point in time.
They're a perfect monster.
Lucas (07:26):
When we talk about this on
the writing team, it's history and
lore, so history is what it actually
was and how it actually came to be.
And then lore is the stuff that
I'm making up for the game.
And there's, you know, usually
between 600 to a thousand words
of, of history, assuming I can
find it, this one's a little short.
And then for the history section I've
added the stat block, so you can see
(07:48):
on the top of page 12, this is if I
were to just take the fairy shrimp
as it was known, in the real world.
These are the numbers and abilities
and traits that it would have.
So every creature has, you know, armor
class, hit points, speed, and these
six different statistics that define
its ability to interact with the world.
Three physical (08:08):
strength, dexterity,
and constitution, and then three mental:
intelligence, wisdom and charisma.
And for, for this creature,
all of them are very low.
Cause it's a tiny beast.
It's the smallest animal
category that I can make it.
And then I've, I've rewritten
(08:29):
diapause for Dungeons and Dragons.
And I think if Wizards of the Coast had
had something called diapause in the game,
they might call it drought resistance.
Tierra Curry (08:42):
Yeah, that, that make sense.
That's definitely one of the,
their life history strategies.
Like the whole reason they're found
in these small bodies of water is
to avoid predation because they're
such a key part of the food chain.
And so by popping up in these
very temporary pools, they
avoid the larger predators that
have to have permanent water.
(09:02):
So drought resistance is their
key to survival over the long run.
Lucas (09:07):
I want to look at one more thing
I have your press release and I want
to talk about how, how that came to be.
So this was, October 5th, 2011, a
little more than 10 years to the day from
when I wrote this entry (09:21):
" The Florida
fairy shrimp is an all too common gut
punch story of too little too late.
The species was known from a single
population living in a pool, just
south of Gainesville, Florida.
It was originally described in 1956.
It was reclassified as an
entirely separate genus in 2002,
(09:42):
making it even more unique.
Returning to review the animal
for endangered status in 2011,
researchers found the pool had
been paved over by developers,
rendering the species extinct."
Did I get it right?
Is that kinda how it, went?
Tierra Curry (09:55):
Yes.
So one interesting detail is the
scientist who found the fairy shrimp,
he collected a couple specimens in
the 1930s, had them like in a jar in
his workshop and didn't publish the
description of the species until 1956.
So it became known as an official species
to science in 56, but he had collected
(10:17):
it in 19 I think 1939, the late 1930s.
And so the area where the vernal
pools were, where he got it, was then
developed, but there's still a lot
of natural habitat around that area.
So there are people, there are scientists
at the Florida Natural Areas Inventory who
think that it could still be out there.
(10:39):
It's just that, because it can
go into diapause for more than a
decade, a researcher would have
to be there at exactly the right
time in this undeveloped habitat.
So we have no evidence that this,
that this particular species
still exists because fairy shrimp,
because of their life history
strategy, they're highly endemic.
They're just found in these little
areas cause they only spring to life
(11:00):
in these temporary pools of water.
So of course you're going to have like
a lot of species in different areas.
But this one, because there are
natural areas not far from where it was
discovered, it could still be out there.
And so the scientist that I talked
to in Florida, he wants people in
the Gainesville area like when it
rains to go look in puddles and, and
(11:23):
take pictures of the fairy shrimp or
collect a few and send them to him
because it might still be out there.
Because the whole area, it's
not like Miami, the whole
area hasn't been developed.
There's still some natural
areas around this particular
locality, south of Gainesville.
Lucas (11:38):
That's amazing.
Tierra Curry (11:38):
It is!
And I think like, because you're
doing this project, people
might become interested in it.
And so there's a greater chance that
citizen scientists would be like,
cause see, I thought that's what
Fish and Wildlife Service would do.
When we petitioned for endangered
species act protection.
I, I was a lot more idealistic and younger
and naive about how things actually work.
And I was like, "Stop the presses!
(11:59):
It could be extinct!
Go find it!
We don't want to lose a species."
And I didn't realize that there there's
not that much of a sense of urgency,
that I still think that there should be.
I think there should
be a sense of urgency.
If it's out there, let's protect
all of the areas where it lives.
but it could be out there.
Lucas (12:17):
Oh, there's two things
I want to hit with that.
One is that I have the, because
the internet is amazing, I
have the article by Ralph W.
Dexter, I have his description
of the fairy shrimp.
okay.
I'm not going to be able to pronounce this
at all, but here we go, "A morphological
(12:39):
re-evaluation of the anostracan families
Linderiellidae and Polyartemiidae, with a
redescription of the linderiellid Dexteria
floridana," our Florida fairy shrimp.
From what I understand this paper's
argument that the Florida fairy shrimp
can be thought of as a distinct species
(13:00):
hinges on a morphological re-evaluation
of the creature in particularly,
the way its genitals are shaped.
Tierra Curry (13:07):
Yeah,
that's really common in
Lucas (13:10):
Is it really?
Tierra Curry (13:11):
Yes, spring snails in
particular, the species are based
on the shape of their penises.
And so they have like different
lobes or knobs or, or ducts.
And that's how you have, like,
you have to collect them and
get an electron microscope and
like study them in great detail.
And so the 2002 paper that, that
(13:32):
reclassifies this one, a lot of it
is based on its penile morphology.
Lucas (13:39):
That's amazing.
That's a detail that didn't make the book.
There's a couple of things
based on this conversation.
I'm probably going to have
to add back into the entry.
Even at a second cut, I don't
know if penile morphology
is going to be one of them.
Tierra Curry (13:51):
Just to add, to
like all of this strange things
about this animal, right?
Another super interesting thing about
them is as they go through their different
larval stages of development, they have
different numbers of eyes and different
numbers of arms and legs, like the instars
gain complexity, they start out with one
eye spot and they end up with two eye
stalks or they're started out like with
(14:13):
a couple appendages and then end up with
11 or it's just, it's they're so weird!
I know if you were trying to just sit
down and brainstorm up a super weird
little monster, like I wouldn't have been
creative enough to come up with this.
Starts with one eye, ends up with
two; starts out with six arms
and legs ends, up with 11 pairs.
(14:37):
22, I guess.
Lucas (14:39):
That's one of the particular
difficulties of designing for
Dungeons and Dragons is because it
has this, this really interesting
dichotomy between hero and monster.
Mostly for copywriting reasons,
anything that is not a player
character, anything with one of
these stat blocks is a monster.
So a person, a frog, a tiny shrimp
(15:00):
fairy, all considered monsters
and monsters don't level up.
Heroes level up.
That's what heroes do.
You go from level one through 20, and it
might take you three to five years, but
that's kind of the course of the game.
So there's a weird disconnect when you
try to bring naturalism and conservation,
(15:21):
too much verisimilitude to the real world
to Dungeons and Dragons because you can't
necessarily write a creature that goes
through several stages of development.
I had to kind of pick one and I might
be able to, I might be able to use the
same statlock block for both the for
both the larva and the shrimp, or,
(15:41):
and the adult, but I can cause some of
these numbers are so small and there's
so little here that I don't think
mechanically, it would change much.
But I wish I could have told people that
it starts with one eye in three legs
and ends up with two eyes and 22 legs.
Cause that's crazy.
Tierra Curry (16:03):
Yeah, three
pairs of legs starts with three
Lucas (16:05):
Oh, three pairs.
Tierra Curry (16:06):
pairs.
But even like even egg is what's so
amazing because the tough little egg
cyst is what can survive everything.
Like sometimes I wish I could just take
a break from life, an existent, wait for
things, things to improve, or just like
take a long break and then come out, "Pow!
I'm ready now!
Lucas (16:31):
The fairy shrimp, or
rather the shrimp fairy, cause
I kind of switched it around.
I needed them to have distinct names and
I, I didn't know where to go with this.
So I'm flipping it around.
This is a, to my mind, this is an actual
fairy, in the world of the game and
it would necessarily be a shrimp fairy.
It's tiny, it's an inch and a half tall.
I didn't change that bit.
And this one does have three
(16:52):
pairs of appendages and, but
it, but it has the two eyes.
Tierra Curry (16:57):
One thing that I really
like about this drawing, like as a
human prone to anthropomorphizing
things, is it looks like a tough
human, like the stature of it.
I can, I can relate to it.
It looks like a, like a superhero
human, like figure, even though
it has too many arms and legs.
And I
Lucas (17:17):
yeah, I didn't expect that
and that's all down to Lucas.
Our artist is also named Lucas,
so it's a little bit confusing.
But that's down to, to his genius.
Cause I gave him this bizarre little
alien weirdo and he came back with
something that was, that we could really
relate with something that sort of
conformed to logical anatomy at least for,
(17:39):
for something that could be considered
a humanoid within the span of the game.
And Dungeons and Dragons does have some
history of insectoid creatures that
we're drawing on for this, there's a
race called the thri-keen, I think that's
a Planescape one from way back when.
This isn't entirely unprecedented
in, in the D&D world.
(18:00):
But it, it did, you know, it kind
of gave us the language or a way of
interpreting these sort of exoskeleton
forms into something that's recognizably
human, something that a player
character would want to relate to.
This is what I gave to, to my artist.
And then I'm going to show you the sketch.
The thing that got me out of
bed was that the fairy shrimp
(18:22):
are an inch and a half tall.
And the other thing you might not know
about D&D is that it operates on a scale.
One 60th, so that one inch is five
feet, which means that anything that's
an inch tall, if I were to put it
on my table, while I'm playing this
game would be the size of a person.
(18:44):
So there's a weird consonance here between
a creature that's an inch and a half long,
in the real world compared to a game where
an inch and a half tall is, you know, what
we accept as being the size of a person.
By making them an inch and a half tall
in the, in the game itself, I can kind
of give a D&D player, this weird sort
of meta experience where, when their
(19:05):
players encounter this in the world of,
of imagination, it's going to be the
size of a D&D miniature something that
they have a real point of reference for.
so with them being the size of D&D
minis, I wanted them to have a culture
based on performance and storytelling.
So I've changed all of the statistics here
(19:26):
between the history and the lore version.
Its physical statistics
are still very low.
It has a strength of one out of
20, which is the, you know, there's
nothing that this little inch
and a half tall thing can move.
But it has an extremely high
wisdom, 19 out of 20 and a high
intelligence, 16 out of 20.
So these are creatures that know
(19:47):
things and understand the world
and pass their memories together.
And because this is a world of magic, we
can give them a kind of telepathy, a kind
of a way of communicating with creatures,
much, much larger than them, and telling
them things that they, the fairy shrimp
might have remembered from long ago.
Tierra Curry (20:05):
That's really neat
that like the size connection
worked out and that you put all of
that together and the dimensions.
Lucas (20:14):
Thanks.
I was trying to figure out
how to pose this thing.
Cause I knew I wanted it to be humanoid
and I knew it was going to have a
long tail and weird feathery face
things and an odd number of legs.
It was like, how in the world am I
gonna make this make sense immediately
to someone who's picking up this book?
So we went to modern dance.
We went to Cirque de Solei
and contemporary choreography.
(20:35):
And that's how we got this power pose.
Tierra Curry (20:37):
Yeah.
Based on like the it's
swimming upside down, right?
Lucas (20:41):
Yeah.
Tierra Curry (20:42):
Kind of really
gymnastic and athletic and adaptable.
Lucas (20:47):
We always get a sketch,
so we have time to make some
changes before he commits to
rendering and painting everything.
So these are the sketches that I got back.
Tierra Curry (20:56):
Oh, wow.
Wow.
There's just so much personality in these.
I like the power pose that
you ultimately went with.
Lucas (21:10):
Thanks.
There's a few different poses here.
All of which are drawn directly
from reference photos, from
Cirque de Solei and modern dance.
And, the one we ultimately went with is
the second one that he came back with.
But there's, when you see them all kind of
in the same way, there's, there's a real,
there's a real magic to this because you
get, you start to get a sense of how this
version of it might ambulate in 3d space.
(21:33):
The third pose here was our runner up
because it has so much personality.
It has a lot of movement to
it with the feathers kind of
moving back from its face.
And despite the fact that it has these
stocked multifaceted eyes, like I can
almost read that expression even though
there's hardly an expression to read.
Tierra Curry (21:54):
Absolutely.
I think that one looks like
really friendly and chipper.
Like, I'm going to figure this out.
I'm going to persist.
And I like the other ones too.
It's kind of got martial arts influence
and like gymnastics influence.
I just love how much character and
power and vibrancy you've given this
extinct species so that even in the
(22:17):
imaginary realm, people can, can
picture it and honor, honor its memory.
And like it can live on
in the human imagination.
Lucas (22:27):
Yeah, and that is one of the other
things I think I sacrificed to die a pause
in favor of, of making that more of a
point because the lore that I've written
for this creature is that these are,
these are creatures that live in a place
called the Feywild, which is just kind
of an amalgamation of a lot of different
cultures talking about the other world
(22:48):
or the underworld or, the mirror world.
Alice's adventures in Wonderland
is, is a good example.
It's, it's a world that's slightly
askew from the rest of the world.
It's a world where all of the fairy
stories of Titania and Oberon come from.
I've put this creature there
because it just felt right.
It's kind of where all the weirdos go.
(23:10):
I liked the idea of this creature
being in the Feywild, a world
where everyone is scheming.
Nothing is, as it seems, and you
can't take anything at face value.
So I wanted this creature to be
in this world, in these pools
where they're really grounded.
And they have a memory of how things were
before and they're able to literally share
(23:31):
it with each other so that each, each
shrimp fairy remembers all the experiences
of its fellows past and present.
"Though a single shrimp fairy might live
for no longer than a few decades, it has
the wisdom and maturity of the entire
population of shrimp fairies that has ever
existed in the pool in which it inhabits."
Tierra Curry (23:50):
I love it that you
grabbed a deep time there because
these are really ancient creatures.
They've been on the planet
for such a long time.
I think they all the way
back to the Cambrian.
And so that's the perfect skill or
attribute to give them this long memory.
Lucas (24:08):
The other part of that is that
if you're moving through the Feywild,
someone with a strong and clear memory
is going to be a lifeline for you
because memory is weird in the Feywild.
Time moves differently.
The things that you remember
might not have even been real.
So for this thing to, to be there as
kind of a point of a point of reference
(24:30):
or an anchor for your experience in
that world it's going to give it,
it's going to give it a real real, or
it's going to give it that urgency.
Like you, you need this thing on your side
and if you upset them, they will remember,
and you might not ever see one again.
Which is, I think me being a little
bit heavy handed with my own sort of
attitudes about extinction, and playing
(24:51):
to that idea that if they are endemic to
a single pool, and then they're gone that.
We can't get that back.
And there's a real value to that in,
in the memories of the way things
were in the Cambrin in the information
that we might've gotten about how
to make other things what kind of
technologies or science we could have
drawn from the way these weirdos are
(25:12):
put together and the way they swim.
So I, I jettisoned diapause in
favor of something a bit broader.
Tierra Curry (25:23):
I think it's great.
And I think that like them
disappearing forever it's reality.
Like they can survive almost
anything except for pavement
and like a lot of pollution.
Lucas (25:37):
Oh man, that slaps:
"anything but pavement."
I think there's one last thing to
show you and then we might be done.
this was the final product and
you've seen, you'll see it, but
there is a color variant here.
I thought about doing something
with it, where this is kind
of the male and the female.
Although I think if we wanted
to do male and female, we'd
(25:57):
have to change the feathers.
Tierra Curry (26:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, add, add the appendages.
I think both these colors are great.
It's kind of like a gold and a rose gold.
In real life, they are pretty much clear,
which is another of the weird things
about them, but I'd like the, the gold,
because it's appealing and they like it.
It's hard to depict clear things.
Lucas (26:22):
Yeah, I think it would have
been asking a lot of my artists to
not only figure out how to pose this
thing and how its anatomy worked, but
then go ahead and make it transparent.
And now you have to figure out
its digestive tract and where its
lungs are and whether it has any
Tierra Curry (26:38):
No, for sure.
I hear you.
I have it.
I have a tattoo of a clear wing butterfly
and everyone who sees it, who doesn't
know about clear wing butterflies is like,
oh, are you getting to get that finished?
Lucas (26:49):
no, no, it's done.
Tierra Curry (26:52):
When I, when I first
saw one, like it was sitting on
a leaf in the Amazon and you, you
literally see through it and they
have like a little dot of color.
So you just see this little
thought of color moving around.
And I was with a friend and
we were both like of a little
thought, well, what was that thing?
And then it lands and you
totally see through it.
And I was like, I'm getting one.
That's so cool.
(27:13):
But if you don't know about them,
then you think it's not done so I
totally defer to adding color to the
artwork for the purpose of mass appeal.
Lucas (27:25):
And we do have the
luxury of saying, this isn't
quite what the history is.
This isn't quite reality.
It's, it's kind of a hyper real thing.
And I want people to
Tierra Curry (27:33):
be,
Lucas (27:34):
Yeah.
And I want people to learn to
walk that line between what they
experienced and what they see and
what, what they imagine it could
be, because I I want them to imagine
these things as great and charismatic
and beautiful and full of potential.
Even if that comes at the cost of a few
of the, the real-world details of it
(27:56):
being too transparent and upside down
and tiny and not actually a person.
Tierra Curry (28:03):
Well, that's
the beauty of this project.
I mean, this animal is extinct.
There are no photos of it.
The only place where it can still
live is in the minds of people.
And so you're giving it a life, a suite
of powers and an audience to think
about it and help it continue to live.
I think extinction is a political choice.
It's doesn't have to
(28:23):
be, it's not inevitable.
And so the more people who know about
it and are passionate about it, we
can put pressure on political leaders
and at all stages of government,
local state national to get people.
Involved and committed to not losing
any more species to extinction.
And so I'm excited to be partnering with
The Book of Extinction because you're
(28:45):
bringing plants and animals that we've
lost back to life and reaching a whole new
audience of passionate, smart, interested
people who can help keep the memory
of what we've lost alive, but also get
involved in the campaign to make sure we
don't lose any more species to extinction.
Lucas (29:03):
Where do people find out more
about the Center for Biological Diversity?
Tierra Curry (29:08):
So you can go to save life
on earth.org that lands on our extinction
crisis campaign page, or you can go to
biological diversity.org and there you'll
find an overview of all of our programs,
environmental health oceans, climate law.
Population and sustainability and
dangered species, just all of the
work that we're doing at multiple
(29:29):
levels to, to try to end extinction,
Lucas (29:34):
Fantastic.
Tierra Curry (29:37):
I'm gonna do some
more homework on fairy shrimp
anatomy and get back to you.
I think this is like a lovely
and fascinating rabbit hole.
Lucas (29:48):
lovely.
Yeah, please do.
Cause, this was one of the ones that,
just from the research that I was
able to do, I was at a bit of a loss.
I was worried that I was going to
have to cut this one, because I didn't
think I had enough to fill the history
section, to fill 600 words on it.
And, I think the only reason I didn't was
that I had already given the brief to the
(30:09):
artist, I'd already sort of decided that
this was what we were going to work on.
And so I was, I was forced
to, to stick with it.
And it's another one of those bizarre near
misses that, yeah, it's, it's still here.
It's still a part of the
project through some of the most
bizarre, possible circumstances.
Tierra Curry (30:26):
You're a leading author
now on the Florida fairy shrimp, because
it is not, it is not a crowded field.
You've spent as many hours
investigating it as anyone.
And you're publishing something about it.
Like as many words as anyone else has
written, since it's two descriptions.
Lucas (30:41):
Oh, no, I hadn't
even thought about that.
I have been keeping a bibliography.
So it is my hope that people can
check my work when this comes out.
And it, that is like, that is really
encouraging that, oh man, we're, we're
going to have to make this with a
(31:03):
certain level of scientific rigor because
it's just the only, in some cases it
might be the only thing about this.
And I don't want to lead people astray.
Tierra Curry (31:14):
Yeah.
I mean, there's not, this
was one of those species.
There's three papers.
There's the petition we wrote to get
protection and there's the denial
the Fish and Wildlife Service wrote.
And now there's your Book of
Extinction account and that's it.
That's cumulative.
Lucas (31:32):
Ooh.
All right.
New goal (31:33):
let's make Wikipedia.
Tierra Curry (31:38):
I think Wiki right
now is just the, the account from
our petition in fish and wildlife
service saying it's extinct.
So we could totally go edit that
Wikipedia article to put a link to The
Book of Extinction, because there's
like a pop culture section that they
do, like references and culture.
So we can absolutely link that.
Lucas (31:59):
All right.
So new metric of success for this,
not just can we get on Wikipedia
for this, but how, like what
percentage of the things we cover?
Can we do good enough work on that
we will make the Wikipedia page?
Tierra Curry (32:14):
Yeah, I think for all
of the species, like the more recently
declared extinct species, there's
just not very much known about them
because they were discovered and then
their habitat was ruined and then they
were declared extinct and we don't
have any information from the interim.
I want to circle back just a second
to like the tight storyline of
"discovered, lost, declared extinct"
(32:36):
because unfortunately the Florida
fairy shrimp, isn't an outlier there.
It's the story of dozens of quiet
extinctions that have happened
around the country, the Tatum cave
beetle, the, beaver pond Mar Estonia
spring snail,, you have the original
descriptions and the so much development
dams, pavement pollution happened.
And then they're just gone and
we never got to learn all of
(32:57):
the amazing things about them.
And so people like in general,
the, the modern lifestyle and the
way that we pave everything and
grow food with tons of pesticides
and have tons of stuff like that.
That is the villainous side of this.
But like the hero protagonist side of
this is we can make things different.
We can change.
We don't have to live in the
(33:18):
world the way it is right now.
And it's just enough people.
Waking up to that and realizing
that, I mean, it's suicidal of
us to keep a wiping out nature.
And assuming that it's separate from
who we are and separate from human
wellbeing, by wiping out nature and
paving everything we're hurting ourselves.
And it doesn't have to be that way.
Lucas (33:42):
Okay.
That's where we're at.
That's what we're doing.
Cause yeah, heroes change.
Villains have stat blocks and
heroes have character sheets and
your character sheet can change.
You can level up.
Tierra Curry (33:52):
And we really, I mean, we
just have to put so much pressure on.
Policymakers so that things, the
status quo doesn't keep happening.
We don't keep burning fossil fuels.
We don't keep looking at every patch
of forest as a future subdivision.
We like set those areas aside and take
concrete actions to fight climate change,
to have cleaner energy, to have fair
(34:15):
energy that doesn't disproportionately
harm marginalized communities.
And the, I mean, part of it is
just not getting overwhelmed by all
of it and finding an action that
you can take and then taking it.
And that's like the antidote
to personal despair.
And it's also the way to end extinction
is to just find something that you can
(34:36):
do and do it and not feel like there's so
much bad stuff, but I can't do anything.
Lucas (34:43):
Yeah.
And that's what this, that's what
this project is here to do itself.
In the cosmic scheme of
things, it's so small.
And it's such a short first step.
But I think it's one of the most
incredibly powerful things that we can do.
And it's one of the things that
D&D players are best suited
to do is to tell stories.
I haven't written a
(35:03):
prescription with this.
These are all tools.
These are all places to start.
And if you bring this to your table
and you suddenly, and if, you know,
you sit there for three or four hours
and you go through this story in the
way that only D&D can, where you're
present and immersive and emotionally
invested that I think to my, to my mind,
(35:23):
and the reason I'm doing this, that's.
Yeah, that's the best
thing I know how to do.
And I think it's the thing that D&D
players can do better than anybody else.
So this is the opportunity that
we have and kind of the first
step that I'm giving people.
Yeah.
Tierra Curry (35:40):
I am so grateful for
you and for this project, I think
it's creative and wonderful, and it's
going to be, it's really going to
make a difference in the long run.
Lucas (35:51):
Tierra, thank you so
much for being here and taking
another hour to go over this.
I'm glad that you were as excited to
see this as I was to show you this.
Thanks for listening to Making a Monster.
Now's a great time to hit that
follow button and leave a five
star review on your podcast.
App of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really does
(36:11):
help new listeners discover the pod.
If you want to support The Book of
Extinction and endangered species
conservation at the same time, you
can visit the project's landing
page at scintilla.studio/extinction.
That's S C I N T I L L A dot
studio slash extinction to
download the first three monsters.
(36:32):
You can pay what you want for them.
And whatever we earn from that sale
will be donated directly to the
Center for Biological Diversity.
You can also keep up with the project
by joining our email list where I'll
be sharing more of the incredible,
true stories that surface through this
research or follow this podcast for more
episodes of Making a Monster (36:48):
Extinction.
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