April 18, 2022 • 42 mins
How does it square with your heroes when the bad guys treat their animals better than the good guys? What if your villain pets the dog?
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Meet my guests:
James Introcaso: https://twitter.com/JamesIntrocaso
Flee, Mortals! The MCDM Monster Book: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mattcolville/mcdm-monster-book
Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
James Introcaso (00:00):
Picture Return of
the King and the Ollyphants coming
in and laying waste to the white
city Gondor in Lord of the rings.
Here's the deal is that, it's like that.
But instead of an elephant bringing
in a bunch of warriors on its back,
it is a giant, enormous spider.
(00:22):
Huge, huge spider with this
platform on its back and goblins
firing arrows and throwing these
little rodents called skitterlings.
And then the spider can also like
flex its abdomen and fire goblins
off like warriors off into the air.
Um, the other thing is that when
it dies, a swarm of baby spiders
burst forth from its abdomen.
Lucas (00:43):
gross.
James Introcaso (00:44):
So, so yeah, and this
Lucas (00:45):
James, why have you done this?
All right.
Let's see if this works.
Giant spider chucking, goblins giant,
spider John King goblins giant, spider
Chucky, goblins jogging, goblins
stupid.
(01:07):
Hello, and welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where game
designers show us their favorite
monster and we discover how it works,
why it works and what it means.
I'm Lucas Zeller.
Building on years of experience as a
tactical dungeon master and a frankly
uncanny ability to explain the nuances
of the game in a single take with
no audible pauses, I mean, come on,
(01:29):
Matt Colville has created a small
design company for original fifth
edition content called Matt Colville
Dungeon Master productions, or MCDM.
Colville's lead writer is a returning
guest on the show, James Introcaso.
He's here to talk about "Flea Mortals!
The MCDM Monster Book," which is
busily smashing its stretch goals on
(01:50):
Kickstarter and has, as of the time of
recording, made almost $1.3 million.
The conceit of the book is to replace
the monster manual you already
have with new and better monsters.
So I asked James about the monster I
felt most needs an update (02:05):
goblins.
I'm here with James Introcaso, who is
the lead writer for M C D M or Matt
Colville Dungeon Master productions.
He has had a long career in tabletop game
design, having worked with Wizards of the
Coast, Roll20, Kobold Press other awesome
publishers before he came on to MCDM.
(02:28):
And he's been on the show before, for
Burn Bryte, talking about the teleporting
mischief fox the Blipp, which was a
whole lot of fun and really rounded
out the first season of the show.
Very well.
So, James, I'm happy to have you back.
Welcome back to Making a Monster!
James Introcaso (02:42):
Thanks, Lucas.
Thank you so much.
So it's a, it's an honor and
privilege to get to come on and talk
about monsters and have some fun.
My role at MCM is basically lead designer.
Matt is the design director, and he says,
here's a bunch of things I want to do.
I want to make a monster book.
I want to make a magazine.
I want to do this.
(03:02):
And then I go and, hire all of the
people who work on those projects, you
know, the contractors in terms of the
people writing not in terms of art.
And then I also write myself and I
edit everybody's work and I, you know,
so I sort of act as the the project
lead on all those projects and bring
those things together and, and sort of.
(03:22):
The final say.
So, and then Matt is there to
consult with and that sort of thing.
But he really wants to be
able to take a step back and
like big picture at some more.
So that's, day-to-day making
RPG products for for MCM.
Lucas (03:34):
Congratulations, man.
James Introcaso (03:36):
Thank you.
Thank you.
It is it is still very strange
sometimes that this is the case.
So, but I am glad it is the case
that it seems to be working.
Lucas (03:45):
I wanted to talk to you about
MCDM's upcoming monster book and
I wanted to park on this because,
the working title for that work
is, or was monsters and villains.
If you've followed this show for any
length of time, or if you remember
GM edition, I've spent quite a
while parsing out the difference
between a monster and a villain.
(04:06):
So I think I do want to address
that with you, but you've opted for
a different name, for the project.
What does it now?
James Introcaso (04:14):
So, yeah.
So the name of the product now is
flee mortals, the MCDM monster book.
and we wanted to go that route because,
you know, obviously we have strongholds
and followers and kingdoms, and more
fair are two of the other big releases
that we've had, on Kickstarter from MCDM.
But we did realize that, we'll never
own noun ampersand noun, right?
(04:35):
In this space that already belongs
to somebody who, who who is very
kindly given a open game license to
us to allow us to make our things.
So we thought if you want to step away
and differentiate yourself, maybe we
should break that mold a little bit.
And and so we have gone with this
because we think it's evocative.
We think it's fun.
You see the book and it's got a monster
(04:56):
on the cover and flee mortals and
big capital letters and everything.
And you're like, this is great.
Let's do it.
Lucas (05:01):
Yeah.
Well, it's a solid business
decision and it's a solid
storytelling decision as well.
But part of the reason I wanted
to bring it up is because
there's a really fascinating.
Attitude that comes with that
title that I think you've
reflected in in the book as well.
So some ground rules, or rather some,
some context in, in terms of Dungeons
(05:25):
and dragons, they define the word
monster as anything with a stat block.
Which is from a technical writing
standpoint, from a dungeon masters
standpoint, very useful from a
literary philosophical, analytical
standpoint, incredibly problematic,
and it makes for a rich conversation.
So by changing the title.
And also you've kind of sidestepped this
in the book, by giving a different name
(05:47):
to monster itself in, in that context.
James Introcaso (05:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think we, we
generally agree with that.
You know, we write for fifth edition
Dungeons and Dragons, and so we
use their style a lot and the word
monster does appear in this book.
It's right there on the cover, but we
use the word creature a lot more because
I think often creature is also used as
like a catch all for everything from
commoner to you know, gelatinous cube.
(06:13):
And so we wanted to do the same thing
and, and we're doing some things to sort
of get the idea across that the stat
blocks in this book are living creatures.
And so like, you'll notice that D
and D step blocks often default to
the "it" pronouns for creatures,
which can be confusing because
we also use it for objects.
So we use "they," we default to "they"
when we the gender of a creature in
(06:35):
a stat block and that sort of thing.
You know, we're just sort of looking
for places where we can make it more
more accessible to people so that they
can understand like, Hey, these are
living things and they can be used
in your game in many ways, right?
They're NPCs and they're all sorts of
things, but the title "Flee, Mortals!"
is also saying, this is a book to battle.
(06:59):
And we take great pains to make sure that
this is the case that we're saying this.
It doesn't mean that because goblins
are in this book, every goblin is
something that is going to fight
and challenge the adventures.
On the contrary we actually go, do we
say most goblins, like all humanoids,
are normal people and they just want to
live and they're kind to their neighbors
(07:19):
and they're nice to everybody else.
But when there are goblins who are thieves
or murderers and they're pushed out of
society, because of that this is how they
act, and this might be what they would do.
And you might find them with, you
know, hanging out with other bandit
humanoids and things like that.
And so that is sort of the
idea behind the book, right?
Is we don't want to paint any
ancestries or sapient creatures
(07:41):
really with like such a broad brush.
We wanna, we want to get in there
and we want to give you the worst
of the bunch so that you can have
fun tactical encounters with.
Lucas (07:50):
yeah.
Yeah.
Something that triggers the
fight flight or freeze response.
And I, and I love that.
There's that, that scifi echo in
your voice calling them "sapients".
James Introcaso (08:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
So it's funny that comes from
my Burn Bryte experience.
We talked
Lucas (08:03):
I remember that one.
James Introcaso (08:05):
yeah, yeah.
A lot about creatures.
And and Darcy Ross who is a scientist
and was a game designer on that said,
you know, we call a lot of things
sentient and a lot of creatures
sentient, but sentient just means
you are aware you exist in the world.
So like plants aren't necessarily
sentient, but like my dog is sentient.
(08:25):
And, and we don't think of it that way.
Sapience is really what we mean
often when we say sentience.
And of course the way language works
now, sentience also means sapience so,
not to be too pedantic on this show.
Lucas (08:37):
Right.
Well, I, I mean, it is kind of my brand
uh, but now, and I did want to dig into
that a little bit before we got to our
specific monster, because being this
careful about language versus when it,
especially in terms of "creature" and
"monster" and "sapient" and "humanoid",
(08:58):
was there anything else that you had to
do to kind of the core style of the way
things are written for fifth edition in
order to accommodate this choice to call
things by the name "creature" more often?
James Introcaso (09:09):
No, honestly,
fifth edition does use "creature"
a lot in the core rules.
And in fact, in their mechanical language,
they use "creature" a ton, right?
If you read a spell, it says, you
know, pick a creature, you can see.
And, and they'll differentiate
between creature and object.
So, you know, for a living thing,
in a non-living thing and and they
also will, we'll use a creature
(09:32):
outside of that context, but they'll
use monster a lot in the lore.
So it was just using creature a lot
in lore, but like I said, we don't
shy away from the word "monster"
either because of the way it's used.
And also I think.
If people see a monster on the cover
of a book, if they're D and D players,
they know what it means, they associated
immediately and that sort of thing.
So we don't want to move to
(09:52):
the point of accessibility.
And we also, you know, Wizards of the
Coast is taking strides forward with
what they're doing, both in terms of
the, the sensitivity with which they
approach these things, but also within
the mechanics that that they're creating.
And so we're just trying to
also do the same thing that is
(10:13):
happening over wizards of the coast.
You know, we're a company of eight people
that don't have like Hasbro corporate
overlords and we don't have to answer it.
So like, we can move a little
bit faster in that sense.
But it was interesting cause we were
working on our book at the same time
as, as they were working on monsters,
the multi-verse and it was like, oh
look, we thought of a lot of the same
things that we're we're going to do.
(10:34):
So that was a fun.
Lucas (10:35):
One of the places in
which this approach to monster
is focused very intensely is at
the very bottom of the adventure.
So if you get, and I believe this is
still the case, that last mine's offend
delver is still part of the starter set.
And it's still the first
experience that most people
have with Dungeons and dragons.
And the first encounter in lost
(10:57):
mine's a fan delver is goblin ambush.
And if you're not careful, it
is a TPK waiting to happen.
Goblins occupy a remarkably influential
place in the game relative to how
they're treated lore wise, to my mind.
And I featured a couple of different
(11:17):
goblins on the show, and I think designers
gravitate to goblins for this reason that
goblins have often been used as like the
first thing you fight, you hit them and
they turn you into level two and now you
can fight something more interesting.
So I've never been entirely comfortable
with goblins for that reason.
Looking at goblins in that lens, what
(11:38):
was it that drew you to add a whole
bunch of goblins to flee mortals?
James Introcaso (11:44):
One of the things is, we
wanted to make goblins more interesting.
So in terms of, foes in fifth edition,
you've got the goblin and you've got
the goblin boss and then, in Volos
more goblins appear and that sort of
thing, but we wanted to make it so
that goblins could be interesting.
(12:05):
And maybe you would stick with
them as the villains of your
campaign for several levels.
But also to to help flesh out like this.
Tactical nature of them, so that it's
not just, they charge it, you fully and
wait to turn into bags of hit points
and that sort of thing, and give them
(12:25):
interesting things to do both inside
of combat and out of combat so that
you can really, have fun and have a
memorable in counter, with goblins.
That's why our preview document,
that's coming out for flee.
Mortals has a lot of goblins in it.
And the other thing is, you know,
we're, we're famous for putting a
little fourth edition into our stuff.
(12:45):
So.
For the addition has what are called
roles for all of the creatures, right?
And the roles are things like soldier,
which is kind of like a tank or lurker,
which is sort of like a, you know, you
hide in the shadows and then you pull out,
you come out and attack or brute, which
is your bag of hit points that hits really
hard and has some other cool features.
And so we've brought back
(13:06):
monster roles to to use those,
to help you build an encounter.
Because if you look at your thing and
say, oh yeah, I'm going to use all of
these creatures and you can say, okay,
well, I don't want it to just be all
artillery because when my players run up
into melee, The artillery won't really
be able to use their coolest things.
So I'm going to have some artillery back
(13:27):
here, and then in the frontline, I'm
going to have some, soldiers and brutes
to stop them and that sort of thing,
and goblins have that capability now.
And so goblins are dangerous,
they're crafty, and they also
can make like really good allies.
So one of the things this book has is
creatures that will adventure with you.
And so in the goblin section,
(13:48):
there's a goblin retainer, which
is a follower who joins your party
and we'll, we'll come with you.
that's a big, important thing for us
is again, we wanted to say like, are a
bunch of different aspects of this sort
of creature, particularly with humanoids.
And here's a bunch of different
versions of them that you
(14:09):
can use as allies or as foes.
And you'll create a fun and interesting
encounter with them that will be
memorable, but also will like increase
your respect for the goblin a little bit.
So that's our hope.
Lucas (14:23):
There is a conversation
here about how about goblins is
representations of the enemy other and,
James Introcaso (14:28):
Sure.
Lucas (14:29):
exotic races.
And I would love to hit on that
if you're comfortable with it.
But I
James Introcaso (14:34):
I would.
I would also like to acknowledge,
that it's two, white guys, talking
about that in that sense too.
Lucas (14:40):
Yeah.
And again, I wear my biases on my
sleeve with this show and part of the
ways that I try to control for it is
to talk to the people who designed the
monster itself and just look at the
conversation in the scope of how it's
represented in a single step block.
So there's a lot here that we can't do.
And there's a lot here that just relies
on kind of tracing influences and seeing
(15:03):
where this stuff has come from and being
honest about what we're working with.
and actually that kind of leads me
into my point because we therefore
needed need to step blocks of work
with, and I was particularly attracted
to the idea of the goblin war spider.
So paint me a picture,
James, what is this thing?
James Introcaso (15:21):
The war spider is
if you a picture return of the king
and the Ollyphants coming in, and
and laying waste to the white city
Gondor in, in Lord of the rings.
Here's the deal is that, it's like that.
But instead of an elephant, bringing
(15:42):
in a bunch of warriors on its back,
it is a giant, enormous spider, right?
Like bigger than a giant spider, huge,
huge spider with this platform on its
back and goblins firing arrows and
throwing these little rodents called
skitterlings And then the spider can also
like flex its abdomen and fire goblins
(16:03):
off like warriors off into the air.
Um, And it also has blades
tied to its legs, the spider.
Um, So as it's going through it
can, it can blade, blade you up.
And so, yeah, so that is the,
the war spider in a nutshell.
The other thing is that when
it dies a swarm of baby spiders
burst forth from its abdomen.
Lucas (16:21):
gross
James Introcaso (16:22):
so, so yeah, and this
Lucas (16:23):
James, why have you done this?
James Introcaso (16:26):
that was Matt's
idea and but I fully endorse it.
I do wanna, I do want to underline
that I'm not going to, I'm not
going to throw him under the bus
cause I was like, "That's the
coolest thing I've ever heard."
But so, and one of the things about me is
that in real life I am an arachnophobe.
And and sort of like Batman is scared
(16:47):
of bats and wants his enemies to
also fear bats, I want all players
everywhere to share my fear of spiders.
And so that is what the war is spider
really is, is you know, this idea
of, we wanted a lot of different
creatures to have like a war
beast, what do they ride into war?
And so the war spider is inspired by
(17:08):
a Warhammer figure actually that, you
know, D and D miniatures are very cool.
But if you look at like
Warhammer miniatures, there's
some weird stuff going on.
And it was you
Lucas (17:19):
clearly occupying a
different they're clearly playing
on a different level there or
James Introcaso (17:24):
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
Right.
Well, and that's their
whole business is minis.
And so that's, there's this miniature
that is a spider with a platform
on its back and a bunch of goblins.
And Matt used it in one of his
streamed games and we were like, we
should make that an actual creature.
And so that is what happens with the,
with the war spider, a lot of fun.
Lucas (17:42):
That's remarkable.
So there's two influences
already that we're working with.
One is just you as an author:
here's the thing that I hate.
And the other is like, here is the
toy that I had lying around to,
to fit it onto the table itself to
carry the game in the moment, which
I think is how we got a couple of,
some of the classic D and D monsters.
(18:04):
The rust monster is the most
notable example that comes to mind.
But the other thing that I wanted to bring
into this is we're talking about roles and
we're talking about mounts in artillery,
and there's a whole lot of stuff here that
has to do with the way wars are fought.
And there may be there, there,
there are certainly other
(18:25):
capsules for culture and value.
And the, the things that, that Groups
of people have access to., could you
look back into history and I would trust
Matt and MCD to do this and point to
real world armies or battle tactics that
relied on this kind of an engine of war?
James Introcaso (18:45):
Yeah.
Well, I think right when and taking
the elephant comparison, right?
Like thinking of Hannibal crossing the
Alps on elephants to invade Rome, I think
is probably like the most one of the
most sort of like talked about examples.
And one reason it's talked
about is I think like that's
a shock and awe tactic, right?
Elephants classically, when they get
(19:07):
scared are like dangerous to be around,
let alone try to ride somewhere.
So it's but, but that idea of
like, you know, we have this
really one of the things that.
Many many, many people fear, right?
Like arachnophobia easily is in the
top three fears globally of people.
We have this thing we're
riding into battle.
(19:28):
It's part of the shock and awe experience.
I think you see a lot, even
in modern warfare, right?
Like we, we want to have the
biggest bombs or the biggest
tank or the fastest fighter jet.
A lot of that is not necessarily
about it's it's used as
a deterrent almost right.
Of like a don't mess with us.
You might think that we're little
in small, but look at, look at this.
(19:50):
We have the biggest spider.
And
Lucas (19:52):
a value to it beyond the
intrinsically it's the fastest
fighter and the biggest spider.
James Introcaso (19:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So, you know, I think there
is there's a lot for that.
And obviously we do
turn to war quite a bit.
And the reason we do that is because,
you know, Dungeons and Dragons being
the game that it is, you know, look
at 90% of the class features that you
get look at there's a whole book of
(20:18):
stat blocks for creatures, look at
what most of the stats are telling
you that the game is about, is a game
that has a lot to do with the combat
encounter and the combat experience.
So we do look to that, but
we want to acknowledge right
in this book, that goblins.
More than going to war and often
they are, you know, like I said, most
(20:40):
goblins I think are just like most
people, they don't want to go to war.
They have no desire to and when they
take up arms, it's probably to defend
someone and that the goblet, but the
goblins who are going to cross swords
with adventurers are probably thieves
and murderers and bandits and you know,
all that kind of bad stuff that, you
know, again, they might be working with
humans, they might be working with any
(21:01):
other elves dwarves, that kind of thing.
Lucas (21:03):
Is there something that
you added to the worst spider stat
block that you're really proud of?
James Introcaso (21:08):
Yeah.
So I I did most of the,
the war spider stat block.
So Matt created the baby burst, which is
amazing, and that is what it's called.
But so I really love the ride
launcher which is just a trait
that they have that when a goblin
or any allied rider, actually.
So it doesn't need to be a goblin.
You can use the war spider as you
(21:29):
know, if you want to remove it
from goblins, you totally can.
And so any allied rider that jumps off
the back of the spider has a long jump
of 30 feet and a high jump of 15 feet.
They land safely in the first melee
attack that they make has advantage
after leaping off the spider.
And so, yeah, and that's like speaks
to the fact that this is a mount,
(21:50):
it's, it's trained to launch people
off of it and and, and work with them.
You know, as another trait called
wide to back, which lets essentially
lets two creatures stand in a
space instead of one, so it can
carry more creatures on its back.
And then I do, you know, the bladed legs.
I was really proud of just, just
(22:10):
cause I think that's pretty metal.
That's really all,
Lucas (22:13):
Yeah, we've got a
spider and we've got all,
this scrap metal lying around.
We're tying stuff to its legs, man.
This is, this is happening.
James Introcaso (22:21):
exactly, exactly.
You know.
Lucas (22:23):
Oh gosh, aesthetically,
is there anything?
Hmm.
So the trouble with the monster manuals
is that you're trying to write this
in a, in a way that any DM can use.
But is there is there an aesthetic or
or kind of a, kind of a look that you're
going for, or a genre that you're pulling
from, with the war spider and the way it's
(22:44):
laid out or the way it looks in your head?
James Introcaso (22:46):
yeah, so that's
a, that is a good question.
I think for me There are I used to work
for National Geographic and I promise
this is going to answer your question.
Lucas (22:56):
All right.
I'm on for this ride.
Here we go.
James Introcaso (22:57):
And there's a
show on National Geographic that I
helped promote called Brain Games.
And it's, you know, it's like a fun
show you watch and they do games too.
And, and you see how your brain
reacts and they tell you about it.
So one of the things they'll do is
they'll say, alright, watch your TV.
We're going to run through a
bunch of images very quickly.
And they do do, do, do, do, do,
do all these images at a clip.
(23:18):
And they'll say like, "Hey, did
you see the yellow umbrella?"
No, you didn't.
The images went too fast.
Did you see the, the blue pants?
No, that, you know, and then they'll say,
okay, we're going to do it again with a
different series of images and they do it.
And they have, again, a lot of mundane
images, but within it, they put images
of spiders and snakes and your brain.
(23:40):
I can pick those out.
And the reason your brain can pick those
out is because we evolved in a, in such
a way that people who are already scared
of snakes and spiders had a higher
survival rate when we were, you know,
humans who were living outside or hunting
and gathering more often than we are now
because we avoided venomous creatures.
(24:02):
And so like, there is already something
hardwired in evolution in our brains
about spiders for us to fear them,
not everybody, but, but many people
like genetically fear spiders.
And, and it's a good thing because
there might be less of us if we did not.
So that is all to say the war
spider has a look that is very
(24:23):
similar to a real world spider.
Because we wanted to invoke that,
like you turn the page and you're
like, oh, what is that reaction?
And I remember the first time I
saw the war spider, I had like
a like, whoa, what are we doing?
And for a while, I actually couldn't go
into the artist chat because they were
like sharing pictures of giant jury
Angela's and things like that to be like,
(24:45):
yeah, no, the legs should look like this.
And the mandibles should look like this.
And the but the thing that it has, right?
Like the thing that makes it iconic
is it has all of this gear on it.
So it's got this big platform on the
back and that's really iconic so that
it can hold as many writers as possible.
And then the legs you know,
it's not just a metal strap to
(25:05):
the legs because the goblins.
Like the spider.
They treat it well, they don't
want the spider to come eat them.
And so the, the the blades
are like first, she didn't
leather and tied to the leather.
And then it's, it's almost like the spider
is wearing little boots that allow its
feet to be free so that it can still
grip to stuff and everything, you know?
(25:26):
So like picture, picture of a
boot that just covered your calf
within a blade strapped to it.
So that's kind of the thing.
Now, the goblins themselves
have more of a distinct look.
So we wanted to create like
our own look for goblins.
Lucas (25:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
James Introcaso (25:43):
I think there's
some things about goblins that
people can interpret certainly
as like anti-Semitic right.
I
Lucas (25:49):
That's been one of the
big issues that came up before
James Introcaso (25:54):
yeah,
Lucas (25:55):
it's fraut.
James Introcaso (25:57):
It is, it is.
And I certainly understand it.
And so one of the things that we
did was like, okay, what if instead
of a traditional, like goblin nose
we went with goblins, have a more
pronounced sort of jaw and an almost
protrudes kind of like a canine thing.
And their nose is actually kind
of small and sits a top of that.
(26:19):
And then what if goblins also, like
what if instead of caves all the time
goblins were like arboreal, right?
What, what, what would that look
like if they lived more in trees?
If they had evolved from creatures
that had lived in trees, like maybe
they have like sweet prehensile
tales, or maybe they have, you know,
what, maybe they have a posable toes.
(26:40):
And that's where we ended up is that they
have opposable toes and these like sort
of longer arms that make them look more
arboreal and they are also, they got fur.
They have body hair.
And so there and still, you can
still look at them and you still
know that there are goblin, they
still have sort of some traditional
elf ears that goblins often have.
(27:00):
And, and and you know, their skin
is greenish, but it's fur covered.
And so, like, we wanted to
make our own look for goblins.
And I think it, it turned out pretty well.
So, you know, you'll see a
lot of them in the packet.
We, we have them, so, yeah, that's cool.
Lucas (27:14):
First of all,
who did the art on this?
Or, or did you have an artist
that was assigned to goblins and
the war spiders specifically?
James Introcaso (27:22):
Yeah.
So the war spider specifically
was made by Nick Despain.
And Nick is on staff here at MCM.
So we have three artists on staff and we
also work with contracted artists as well.
And then the goblin look all three
of our artists developed together.
So, Jason Hazenauer, who is
the art director, he's the head
of the art department here.
And Grace Chung and Nick Despain
(27:43):
all work together to create
the look for the goblins.
And, and we went through like
a concept art phase, right?
Like there's a lot of art that no one will
ever see of, of our, well, I mean, you
might maybe we'll release like a concept
art book or something that would be up to
the art team if they wanted to do that.
But it was really fun because
they would be like, well, what
does everybody think of this?
And then the whole staff would
weigh in and say, oh, I, you
(28:03):
know, I think this, I think that.
And the art team would say like, oh,
okay, well, we're going to go back where
they'd say like, you're wrong, James don't
w we're going to keep going whatever.
And and so that was you know, that
was how this all came together.
And that was how the war
spider came together too.
There was a lot of talk about like, you
know, should it be more fantastical?
Should it be more, it should, it, should
it itself have some of the features
(28:24):
of the goblin we were developing.
And, and all that kind of stuff.
And it turns out the answer was no, we
wanted it to be like a big old spider.
And it's the worst thing possible
that's ever happened to me.
Lucas (28:35):
Well, doing all this work
for a new, a new look and a new
design for goblins in general.
Did that come with a section of
lore that you guys had to write
or a new take on it that ended up
in a story section of this work?
James Introcaso (28:48):
Yeah.
So we have not a ton, you know, we have a
lot of staff blocks and we have about the
same amount of lore as you would expect
to see in like the fifth edition monster
Lucas (28:57):
So a few hundred words per.
James Introcaso (28:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
But we do, our lore is I would
say different than what you
would find in the monster manual.
You know, like I said, we start by, by
talking really not about the goblins,
you fight, but about goblins in general.
And we say like all humanoid ancestries,
many different goblins, many goblin
cultures, each with their own ideals.
We talk about that goblins
(29:19):
you know, are one of the most
numerous humanoids in the world.
And they can be found in trees,
ending caves and all over the place.
So we did do a little bit of our own
sort of what our interpretation of the
lore is and how we'd like to use it at
M and our worlds and stuff like that.
And then we talk, then we get into like,
you know, in the third paragraph, we
(29:40):
start talking about like, all right,
so the goblins who face adventures in
combat are like this, then we go down
a little bit more and we talk about
heroic goblins who who go on adventures
themselves, what are they like?
And that sort of thing.
So, and then we also get into
there's a special goblin.
So Matt did a video a long time
ago on action-oriented creatures.
Lucas (30:00):
I've referenced it several
times on the show actually.
James Introcaso (30:03):
oh, excellent.
So we have an, so we have a lot of
action-oriented monsters in the book.
And in our preview the idea of
action-oriented monsters is we
wanted to give you, like, not just,
Hey, here's an action-oriented
goblin, here's an action-oriented,
you know, Overmind or whatever.
We wanted to give you like, here's
(30:23):
the goblin boss and here is the
action-oriented goblin boss.
Her name is Queen Bargnott and here's
the lore about her and here's what
she's about and that kind of thing.
So we give you lore for this one
specific goblin leader named Queen
Bargnott then of course, you know, if
you want to change Queen Bargnott into
a different NPC, you're welcome to do
(30:44):
that and it's and use her stat block.
Lucas (30:46):
Giant is another one of those
words that gets a little bit more
mileage in the monsters monster
design space than it would elsewhere.
So what kind of scale are we talking here?
Just in terms of the monster itself and in
the places in which it's most effective?
James Introcaso (31:03):
/sure.
Yeah.
So, so the war spider is huge
in, in those terms, right?
Your traditional guy giant spider
is large in the monster manual.
So, so huge.
Our war spider is just
a little bit bigger.
And so, so these, again, this is this
is a creature that is when used in
combat, usually like being made to
(31:25):
either defend against a law, a group
of powerful people, or being used
to like assault a compound or, or
another army or something like that.
So you probably won't find.
War spider in every community of goblins,
goblins who are invading places might
have them or those who are worried
(31:47):
about being invaded might have them.
And, and that sort of thing,
it's kind of like, not everyone
owns a tank or has the space
Lucas (31:55):
Don't
James Introcaso (31:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Or even like tanks aren't
effective in every battle.
That's also the idea, right?
This would be in a place that
could accommodate a big
creature that can run around.
They have a an action called Trample
where they move their speed and
everything that they run over with
their bladed leg, they get to attack.
And so it's like, you, you need some
room, you want some room for the
(32:16):
spider and you ideally, you want
some cool stuff that can be climbed.
You know, you want ledges and, and
because that's the fun of a spider is
that they can get to places that, you
know, like an elephant can't climb up
the side of a cliff or a wall, but, oh
man, if they had these war spiders at
Helm's Deep, let me tell you things would
be a little different things would be a
little different in Lord of the Rings.
Lucas (32:41):
Is this meant to operate in kind
of the M CDM broader theater of war?
Is this like built for a thing that you
guys do specifically, or do you expect
people to just kind of have these big
theaters built into their games already?
James Introcaso (32:54):
It's a great question.
So this this book is a little different
from Strongholds & Followers and Kingdoms
& Warfare in that like Strongholds
& Followers and Kingdoms & Warfare are these
things that you can add on to your game.
Probably pretty obvious from the
titles, what they add to your game.
This is a book that we are pitching:
you can use it in addition to your
monster manual or in place of.
(33:15):
The idea here is we're not giving you
a new, entirely new creatures, right?
Every, like we said, everybody's heard
of a goblin before they've you probably
fought them if they've ever played an RPG.
So the idea behind our book
is that you could use it.
Now there are also wholly original
creatures in here as well that, to add
some fun and excitement, and you can use
(33:37):
our goblins with the goblins, from the
monster manual, if you want to, right?
Like you can mix match, you can do
whatever you want, but the intent,
our design intent is that you only
need this book if you want to run
the, the game as far as where are
you going to get your creatures from?
So.
That said it, of course does
some things at differently.
(33:58):
Because we are MCDM and we
want to add some things.
So one of the first things that it does
is we add these companion creatures
retainers for humanoids that are like,
you know, people who follow you around
and the player who is the mentor to the
retainer controls the retainer, right?
Like you have a stat block, it's much
simpler to run than a character sheet, so
you can run them along at the same time.
(34:19):
And we've improved the retainer
rules from Strongholds & Followers.
And so our plan is to like revise
them, you know, keep, keep going.
And then when we're happy with them,
we'll probably go back and revise,
Strongholds & Followers to do there.
We also have companion creatures.
And companion creatures are the
same thing, but for non humanoids
what you might say, sentient,
(34:40):
but not sapient creatures.
So, you know, owlbears and
gelatinous cube, companion,
and all that kind of stuff.
We put out a bunch of companions
already with our Beastheart
class when that came out.
So you, you get a preview of that.
We're adding more of those to
that book, new, like entirely
new in this book will be minions.
So we've been working on like
(35:00):
it's super fun to take on a whole.
Good zombies.
And so we wanted to be able to give you
that feel of like cutting through a field
of zombies or you know, skeletons or if
you're higher level, maybe fire giants.
And so, so this idea of
minions and how do they work?
Because in fifth edition, fourth
edition, it was, they had one hit
(35:21):
point, you hit them and you move
on to the next blah, blah, blah.
Pretty easy.
Fifth edition has some rules
that make that more difficult.
So like, for instance, the sleep
spell very effective against minions.
If everybody just has one hip
point, you know, things like a wall
of fire that just automatically
do damage magic missile, right?
(35:41):
Like you're laying waste
to millions in a way.
It's through play testing, we
have learned is not as effective.
So we have different ways
of, of tackling that.
And there is a, and then we have the
action-oriented creatures, which are
creatures meant to either be fought
alone or creatures that are meant
to be fought like as the leader of
a band in a climactic encounter.
(36:02):
And they have a couple of you know,
underlings around them defending them
and that sort of thing teammates.
So, you know, that's, those are the,
those are the sort of the big things
we're bringing along with a couple
of little innovations, like we're
moving CR to the top, right corner of
the stat I don't know, you know, and
creature rolls and things like that.
We'll probably have some new
encounter building rules to try to
(36:23):
make encounter building a little
easier and and that sort of thing,
but that's, you know, this is mostly
about giving you really cool monsters
to, to run in, in combat encounters
so that you, you and your players.
The most enjoyment there.
And one of the things that we're doing
right is we've learned some lessons.
We tried to do that in
kingdoms and warfare.
We ended up with these massive,
(36:44):
massive stack blocks that went
across two pages and it was like,
okay, we're going to pair that down.
We're going to, we're
going to make it simpler.
Everything you need is on one page.
But we're also committed to like, we
don't want to give you a lot of spells.
So you have to look up
to shorten a stat block.
So, you know, and again, this
is the thing that comes up in
monsters of the multi-verse.
You know, we're, we're giving people
(37:04):
more bespoke, custom features that
are right there in the stat block.
Lucas (37:10):
I want to park in the relationship
to nature because we've, you know,
you have the Beastheart, you have
companions, you have mounts and you have
your own work with National Geographic.
So, my work as a designer has spilled
over into the intersection of, of tabletop
role-playing games and natural history and
how we kind of relate to those together.
I wonder if the, the goblins and
(37:31):
the war spider tell us anything to
your mind and maybe to the, to the
team at M CDM about how heroes and
villains relate to the natural world.
James Introcaso (37:43):
Yeah.
I think, you know, it's, it's interesting,
especially right now we're living.
In a time where nature is in trouble
and in a way that nature is starting to
hit back against humanity to, to sort
of like, Hey, you got to stop burning
those fossil fuels or, or, or you will
be wiped from the face of the earth.
(38:04):
And it's scary.
And I think I like, you know, so
I think about every day sort of
humanity's relationship to nature
in that respect, but also our
relationship to nature in that.
Like, I think we often think of
ourselves, especially if we live
in cities and, and drive cars and
whatever like that, we're separate
that we are somehow not part of nature.
(38:25):
It's wild because we are right.
Like we're living,
breathing, farting creatures.
And, and so we have this connection
to this world that has made us.
And I think sometimes we, we separate
ourselves from that in a bad way.
Like, oh, we have to save the earth.
And we don't think about
like, we have to save us.
(38:46):
That's what we're talking about.
It's not like an act of good will
we're doing, it's a it's self
preservation when we save the earth.
And so I think when you think
about it that way All of
these things go hand in hand.
And so when I think about heroes and
when I like working with nature, I
think often we see in fantasy movies,
this idea that like the heroes are the
ones who they're not mining, right?
(39:07):
Like they're not pillaging the earth.
And and that kind of thing,
they're, they're going out there
and they're working with the ents
to destroy Isengard for instance.
That kind of thing.
And I think it's interesting to
have villains who are not the
ones who are doing that, who
are like, Hey, see this spider?
We actually treat this spider really well.
(39:30):
And that's why this spider works with
us, not because we're like, we're
mean to it and we're kicking it and
we're whipping it or what, like that,
that would never work a huge spider
like that, that we would just eat.
And so it means that goblins,
even the ones who are going to be
villains in this book have this
relationship with nature that is deep.
And, and one that if you're riding a war
(39:53):
spider you understand, and is probably
important because you have friends who
are tied to this, but it's also something
that is that, that is worth defending.
And so I think you know, there's scenarios
in this book where it could be that like,
Hey, you adventurers from the big city
who are out here defending your mine;
(40:13):
have you ever thought about what all of
that runoff is doing to us down here in
our, in our community here in the woods?
And it's like, wow,
that's, that's cool stuff.
And maybe you can get the players who
are playing these heroes to think twice
before they just go in with guns blazing.
And so, that's you know, I hope
that answered your question.
Lucas (40:31):
It did.
Yeah.
That kind of turn from applying a heroic
attribute to, to to a creature that's
functioning in the role of the villain
for the purposes of the story and all the
questions that makes you ask as a player.
James Introcaso (40:48):
So if you are
interested in Flee Mortals, the MCDM
monster book you can head on over
to MCDM productions.com, where there
will be more information there.
Also if it's afterwards, if you're
like, "Oh no, I missed the Kickstarter!"
guess what?
Backerkit's up there, and
we're taking late pledges.
So you can head on over there to
to get your sweet, sweet book.
(41:08):
It's like an exclusive mini and
stuff like that too, that people can
check out, but MCDM productions.com
will have all of the info you need.
Lucas (41:15):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If this show has earned five of
your stars, please leave a rating on
the podcast app of your choice and
consider leaving a review as well.
It's a small thing, but it really does
help new listeners find the show and take
a chance on listening to a few episodes.
And I fully believe that if they
get that far, I can keep them.
You can learn more about the
(41:36):
relationship between D and D and
conservation by checking out Book of
Extinction, a monster manual of extinct
species, resurrected for D and D.
Learn more at scintilla.studio/extinction,
or follow this podcast for more
episodes in the Extinction series.
Thanks also to MCDM and James
Introcaso for being a part of the show.
James Introcaso (41:55):
Lucas, thank you so much,
really for having me really, really fun.
Lucas (41:59):
Yeah.
I really enjoyed our last interview.
MCDM is, doing some really clever stuff.
And you guys have your own outlook on the
game and your own way of moving forward.
So I was really excited to get
to talk about the thing that
you're putting your efforts into.
James Introcaso (42:11):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Like, yeah, it's just been it's
it's this is what my life has been
for a while now, this monster book.
So it's fun to be able to talk about
it with somebody outside of M CDM
too, and, and and see like, oh, okay.
This is a good idea.
Picture Return of
the King and the Ollyphants coming
in and laying waste to the white
city Gondor in Lord of the rings.
Here's the deal is that, it's like that.
But instead of an elephant bringing
in a bunch of warriors on its back,
it is a giant, enormous spider.
(00:22):
Huge, huge spider with this
platform on its back and goblins
firing arrows and throwing these
little rodents called skitterlings.
And then the spider can also like
flex its abdomen and fire goblins
off like warriors off into the air.
Um, the other thing is that when
it dies, a swarm of baby spiders
burst forth from its abdomen.
Lucas (00:43):
gross.
James Introcaso (00:44):
So, so yeah, and this
Lucas (00:45):
James, why have you done this?
All right.
Let's see if this works.
Giant spider chucking, goblins giant,
spider John King goblins giant, spider
Chucky, goblins jogging, goblins
stupid.
(01:07):
Hello, and welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where game
designers show us their favorite
monster and we discover how it works,
why it works and what it means.
I'm Lucas Zeller.
Building on years of experience as a
tactical dungeon master and a frankly
uncanny ability to explain the nuances
of the game in a single take with
no audible pauses, I mean, come on,
(01:29):
Matt Colville has created a small
design company for original fifth
edition content called Matt Colville
Dungeon Master productions, or MCDM.
Colville's lead writer is a returning
guest on the show, James Introcaso.
He's here to talk about "Flea Mortals!
The MCDM Monster Book," which is
busily smashing its stretch goals on
(01:50):
Kickstarter and has, as of the time of
recording, made almost $1.3 million.
The conceit of the book is to replace
the monster manual you already
have with new and better monsters.
So I asked James about the monster I
felt most needs an update (02:05):
goblins.
I'm here with James Introcaso, who is
the lead writer for M C D M or Matt
Colville Dungeon Master productions.
He has had a long career in tabletop game
design, having worked with Wizards of the
Coast, Roll20, Kobold Press other awesome
publishers before he came on to MCDM.
(02:28):
And he's been on the show before, for
Burn Bryte, talking about the teleporting
mischief fox the Blipp, which was a
whole lot of fun and really rounded
out the first season of the show.
Very well.
So, James, I'm happy to have you back.
Welcome back to Making a Monster!
James Introcaso (02:42):
Thanks, Lucas.
Thank you so much.
So it's a, it's an honor and
privilege to get to come on and talk
about monsters and have some fun.
My role at MCM is basically lead designer.
Matt is the design director, and he says,
here's a bunch of things I want to do.
I want to make a monster book.
I want to make a magazine.
I want to do this.
(03:02):
And then I go and, hire all of the
people who work on those projects, you
know, the contractors in terms of the
people writing not in terms of art.
And then I also write myself and I
edit everybody's work and I, you know,
so I sort of act as the the project
lead on all those projects and bring
those things together and, and sort of.
(03:22):
The final say.
So, and then Matt is there to
consult with and that sort of thing.
But he really wants to be
able to take a step back and
like big picture at some more.
So that's, day-to-day making
RPG products for for MCM.
Lucas (03:34):
Congratulations, man.
James Introcaso (03:36):
Thank you.
Thank you.
It is it is still very strange
sometimes that this is the case.
So, but I am glad it is the case
that it seems to be working.
Lucas (03:45):
I wanted to talk to you about
MCDM's upcoming monster book and
I wanted to park on this because,
the working title for that work
is, or was monsters and villains.
If you've followed this show for any
length of time, or if you remember
GM edition, I've spent quite a
while parsing out the difference
between a monster and a villain.
(04:06):
So I think I do want to address
that with you, but you've opted for
a different name, for the project.
What does it now?
James Introcaso (04:14):
So, yeah.
So the name of the product now is
flee mortals, the MCDM monster book.
and we wanted to go that route because,
you know, obviously we have strongholds
and followers and kingdoms, and more
fair are two of the other big releases
that we've had, on Kickstarter from MCDM.
But we did realize that, we'll never
own noun ampersand noun, right?
(04:35):
In this space that already belongs
to somebody who, who who is very
kindly given a open game license to
us to allow us to make our things.
So we thought if you want to step away
and differentiate yourself, maybe we
should break that mold a little bit.
And and so we have gone with this
because we think it's evocative.
We think it's fun.
You see the book and it's got a monster
(04:56):
on the cover and flee mortals and
big capital letters and everything.
And you're like, this is great.
Let's do it.
Lucas (05:01):
Yeah.
Well, it's a solid business
decision and it's a solid
storytelling decision as well.
But part of the reason I wanted
to bring it up is because
there's a really fascinating.
Attitude that comes with that
title that I think you've
reflected in in the book as well.
So some ground rules, or rather some,
some context in, in terms of Dungeons
(05:25):
and dragons, they define the word
monster as anything with a stat block.
Which is from a technical writing
standpoint, from a dungeon masters
standpoint, very useful from a
literary philosophical, analytical
standpoint, incredibly problematic,
and it makes for a rich conversation.
So by changing the title.
And also you've kind of sidestepped this
in the book, by giving a different name
(05:47):
to monster itself in, in that context.
James Introcaso (05:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think we, we
generally agree with that.
You know, we write for fifth edition
Dungeons and Dragons, and so we
use their style a lot and the word
monster does appear in this book.
It's right there on the cover, but we
use the word creature a lot more because
I think often creature is also used as
like a catch all for everything from
commoner to you know, gelatinous cube.
(06:13):
And so we wanted to do the same thing
and, and we're doing some things to sort
of get the idea across that the stat
blocks in this book are living creatures.
And so like, you'll notice that D
and D step blocks often default to
the "it" pronouns for creatures,
which can be confusing because
we also use it for objects.
So we use "they," we default to "they"
when we the gender of a creature in
(06:35):
a stat block and that sort of thing.
You know, we're just sort of looking
for places where we can make it more
more accessible to people so that they
can understand like, Hey, these are
living things and they can be used
in your game in many ways, right?
They're NPCs and they're all sorts of
things, but the title "Flee, Mortals!"
is also saying, this is a book to battle.
(06:59):
And we take great pains to make sure that
this is the case that we're saying this.
It doesn't mean that because goblins
are in this book, every goblin is
something that is going to fight
and challenge the adventures.
On the contrary we actually go, do we
say most goblins, like all humanoids,
are normal people and they just want to
live and they're kind to their neighbors
(07:19):
and they're nice to everybody else.
But when there are goblins who are thieves
or murderers and they're pushed out of
society, because of that this is how they
act, and this might be what they would do.
And you might find them with, you
know, hanging out with other bandit
humanoids and things like that.
And so that is sort of the
idea behind the book, right?
Is we don't want to paint any
ancestries or sapient creatures
(07:41):
really with like such a broad brush.
We wanna, we want to get in there
and we want to give you the worst
of the bunch so that you can have
fun tactical encounters with.
Lucas (07:50):
yeah.
Yeah.
Something that triggers the
fight flight or freeze response.
And I, and I love that.
There's that, that scifi echo in
your voice calling them "sapients".
James Introcaso (08:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
So it's funny that comes from
my Burn Bryte experience.
We talked
Lucas (08:03):
I remember that one.
James Introcaso (08:05):
yeah, yeah.
A lot about creatures.
And and Darcy Ross who is a scientist
and was a game designer on that said,
you know, we call a lot of things
sentient and a lot of creatures
sentient, but sentient just means
you are aware you exist in the world.
So like plants aren't necessarily
sentient, but like my dog is sentient.
(08:25):
And, and we don't think of it that way.
Sapience is really what we mean
often when we say sentience.
And of course the way language works
now, sentience also means sapience so,
not to be too pedantic on this show.
Lucas (08:37):
Right.
Well, I, I mean, it is kind of my brand
uh, but now, and I did want to dig into
that a little bit before we got to our
specific monster, because being this
careful about language versus when it,
especially in terms of "creature" and
"monster" and "sapient" and "humanoid",
(08:58):
was there anything else that you had to
do to kind of the core style of the way
things are written for fifth edition in
order to accommodate this choice to call
things by the name "creature" more often?
James Introcaso (09:09):
No, honestly,
fifth edition does use "creature"
a lot in the core rules.
And in fact, in their mechanical language,
they use "creature" a ton, right?
If you read a spell, it says, you
know, pick a creature, you can see.
And, and they'll differentiate
between creature and object.
So, you know, for a living thing,
in a non-living thing and and they
also will, we'll use a creature
(09:32):
outside of that context, but they'll
use monster a lot in the lore.
So it was just using creature a lot
in lore, but like I said, we don't
shy away from the word "monster"
either because of the way it's used.
And also I think.
If people see a monster on the cover
of a book, if they're D and D players,
they know what it means, they associated
immediately and that sort of thing.
So we don't want to move to
(09:52):
the point of accessibility.
And we also, you know, Wizards of the
Coast is taking strides forward with
what they're doing, both in terms of
the, the sensitivity with which they
approach these things, but also within
the mechanics that that they're creating.
And so we're just trying to
also do the same thing that is
(10:13):
happening over wizards of the coast.
You know, we're a company of eight people
that don't have like Hasbro corporate
overlords and we don't have to answer it.
So like, we can move a little
bit faster in that sense.
But it was interesting cause we were
working on our book at the same time
as, as they were working on monsters,
the multi-verse and it was like, oh
look, we thought of a lot of the same
things that we're we're going to do.
(10:34):
So that was a fun.
Lucas (10:35):
One of the places in
which this approach to monster
is focused very intensely is at
the very bottom of the adventure.
So if you get, and I believe this is
still the case, that last mine's offend
delver is still part of the starter set.
And it's still the first
experience that most people
have with Dungeons and dragons.
And the first encounter in lost
(10:57):
mine's a fan delver is goblin ambush.
And if you're not careful, it
is a TPK waiting to happen.
Goblins occupy a remarkably influential
place in the game relative to how
they're treated lore wise, to my mind.
And I featured a couple of different
(11:17):
goblins on the show, and I think designers
gravitate to goblins for this reason that
goblins have often been used as like the
first thing you fight, you hit them and
they turn you into level two and now you
can fight something more interesting.
So I've never been entirely comfortable
with goblins for that reason.
Looking at goblins in that lens, what
(11:38):
was it that drew you to add a whole
bunch of goblins to flee mortals?
James Introcaso (11:44):
One of the things is, we
wanted to make goblins more interesting.
So in terms of, foes in fifth edition,
you've got the goblin and you've got
the goblin boss and then, in Volos
more goblins appear and that sort of
thing, but we wanted to make it so
that goblins could be interesting.
(12:05):
And maybe you would stick with
them as the villains of your
campaign for several levels.
But also to to help flesh out like this.
Tactical nature of them, so that it's
not just, they charge it, you fully and
wait to turn into bags of hit points
and that sort of thing, and give them
(12:25):
interesting things to do both inside
of combat and out of combat so that
you can really, have fun and have a
memorable in counter, with goblins.
That's why our preview document,
that's coming out for flee.
Mortals has a lot of goblins in it.
And the other thing is, you know,
we're, we're famous for putting a
little fourth edition into our stuff.
(12:45):
So.
For the addition has what are called
roles for all of the creatures, right?
And the roles are things like soldier,
which is kind of like a tank or lurker,
which is sort of like a, you know, you
hide in the shadows and then you pull out,
you come out and attack or brute, which
is your bag of hit points that hits really
hard and has some other cool features.
And so we've brought back
(13:06):
monster roles to to use those,
to help you build an encounter.
Because if you look at your thing and
say, oh yeah, I'm going to use all of
these creatures and you can say, okay,
well, I don't want it to just be all
artillery because when my players run up
into melee, The artillery won't really
be able to use their coolest things.
So I'm going to have some artillery back
(13:27):
here, and then in the frontline, I'm
going to have some, soldiers and brutes
to stop them and that sort of thing,
and goblins have that capability now.
And so goblins are dangerous,
they're crafty, and they also
can make like really good allies.
So one of the things this book has is
creatures that will adventure with you.
And so in the goblin section,
(13:48):
there's a goblin retainer, which
is a follower who joins your party
and we'll, we'll come with you.
that's a big, important thing for us
is again, we wanted to say like, are a
bunch of different aspects of this sort
of creature, particularly with humanoids.
And here's a bunch of different
versions of them that you
(14:09):
can use as allies or as foes.
And you'll create a fun and interesting
encounter with them that will be
memorable, but also will like increase
your respect for the goblin a little bit.
So that's our hope.
Lucas (14:23):
There is a conversation
here about how about goblins is
representations of the enemy other and,
James Introcaso (14:28):
Sure.
Lucas (14:29):
exotic races.
And I would love to hit on that
if you're comfortable with it.
But I
James Introcaso (14:34):
I would.
I would also like to acknowledge,
that it's two, white guys, talking
about that in that sense too.
Lucas (14:40):
Yeah.
And again, I wear my biases on my
sleeve with this show and part of the
ways that I try to control for it is
to talk to the people who designed the
monster itself and just look at the
conversation in the scope of how it's
represented in a single step block.
So there's a lot here that we can't do.
And there's a lot here that just relies
on kind of tracing influences and seeing
(15:03):
where this stuff has come from and being
honest about what we're working with.
and actually that kind of leads me
into my point because we therefore
needed need to step blocks of work
with, and I was particularly attracted
to the idea of the goblin war spider.
So paint me a picture,
James, what is this thing?
James Introcaso (15:21):
The war spider is
if you a picture return of the king
and the Ollyphants coming in, and
and laying waste to the white city
Gondor in, in Lord of the rings.
Here's the deal is that, it's like that.
But instead of an elephant, bringing
(15:42):
in a bunch of warriors on its back,
it is a giant, enormous spider, right?
Like bigger than a giant spider, huge,
huge spider with this platform on its
back and goblins firing arrows and
throwing these little rodents called
skitterlings And then the spider can also
like flex its abdomen and fire goblins
(16:03):
off like warriors off into the air.
Um, And it also has blades
tied to its legs, the spider.
Um, So as it's going through it
can, it can blade, blade you up.
And so, yeah, so that is the,
the war spider in a nutshell.
The other thing is that when
it dies a swarm of baby spiders
burst forth from its abdomen.
Lucas (16:21):
gross
James Introcaso (16:22):
so, so yeah, and this
Lucas (16:23):
James, why have you done this?
James Introcaso (16:26):
that was Matt's
idea and but I fully endorse it.
I do wanna, I do want to underline
that I'm not going to, I'm not
going to throw him under the bus
cause I was like, "That's the
coolest thing I've ever heard."
But so, and one of the things about me is
that in real life I am an arachnophobe.
And and sort of like Batman is scared
(16:47):
of bats and wants his enemies to
also fear bats, I want all players
everywhere to share my fear of spiders.
And so that is what the war is spider
really is, is you know, this idea
of, we wanted a lot of different
creatures to have like a war
beast, what do they ride into war?
And so the war spider is inspired by
(17:08):
a Warhammer figure actually that, you
know, D and D miniatures are very cool.
But if you look at like
Warhammer miniatures, there's
some weird stuff going on.
And it was you
Lucas (17:19):
clearly occupying a
different they're clearly playing
on a different level there or
James Introcaso (17:24):
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
Right.
Well, and that's their
whole business is minis.
And so that's, there's this miniature
that is a spider with a platform
on its back and a bunch of goblins.
And Matt used it in one of his
streamed games and we were like, we
should make that an actual creature.
And so that is what happens with the,
with the war spider, a lot of fun.
Lucas (17:42):
That's remarkable.
So there's two influences
already that we're working with.
One is just you as an author:
here's the thing that I hate.
And the other is like, here is the
toy that I had lying around to,
to fit it onto the table itself to
carry the game in the moment, which
I think is how we got a couple of,
some of the classic D and D monsters.
(18:04):
The rust monster is the most
notable example that comes to mind.
But the other thing that I wanted to bring
into this is we're talking about roles and
we're talking about mounts in artillery,
and there's a whole lot of stuff here that
has to do with the way wars are fought.
And there may be there, there,
there are certainly other
(18:25):
capsules for culture and value.
And the, the things that, that Groups
of people have access to., could you
look back into history and I would trust
Matt and MCD to do this and point to
real world armies or battle tactics that
relied on this kind of an engine of war?
James Introcaso (18:45):
Yeah.
Well, I think right when and taking
the elephant comparison, right?
Like thinking of Hannibal crossing the
Alps on elephants to invade Rome, I think
is probably like the most one of the
most sort of like talked about examples.
And one reason it's talked
about is I think like that's
a shock and awe tactic, right?
Elephants classically, when they get
(19:07):
scared are like dangerous to be around,
let alone try to ride somewhere.
So it's but, but that idea of
like, you know, we have this
really one of the things that.
Many many, many people fear, right?
Like arachnophobia easily is in the
top three fears globally of people.
We have this thing we're
riding into battle.
(19:28):
It's part of the shock and awe experience.
I think you see a lot, even
in modern warfare, right?
Like we, we want to have the
biggest bombs or the biggest
tank or the fastest fighter jet.
A lot of that is not necessarily
about it's it's used as
a deterrent almost right.
Of like a don't mess with us.
You might think that we're little
in small, but look at, look at this.
(19:50):
We have the biggest spider.
And
Lucas (19:52):
a value to it beyond the
intrinsically it's the fastest
fighter and the biggest spider.
James Introcaso (19:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So, you know, I think there
is there's a lot for that.
And obviously we do
turn to war quite a bit.
And the reason we do that is because,
you know, Dungeons and Dragons being
the game that it is, you know, look
at 90% of the class features that you
get look at there's a whole book of
(20:18):
stat blocks for creatures, look at
what most of the stats are telling
you that the game is about, is a game
that has a lot to do with the combat
encounter and the combat experience.
So we do look to that, but
we want to acknowledge right
in this book, that goblins.
More than going to war and often
they are, you know, like I said, most
(20:40):
goblins I think are just like most
people, they don't want to go to war.
They have no desire to and when they
take up arms, it's probably to defend
someone and that the goblet, but the
goblins who are going to cross swords
with adventurers are probably thieves
and murderers and bandits and you know,
all that kind of bad stuff that, you
know, again, they might be working with
humans, they might be working with any
(21:01):
other elves dwarves, that kind of thing.
Lucas (21:03):
Is there something that
you added to the worst spider stat
block that you're really proud of?
James Introcaso (21:08):
Yeah.
So I I did most of the,
the war spider stat block.
So Matt created the baby burst, which is
amazing, and that is what it's called.
But so I really love the ride
launcher which is just a trait
that they have that when a goblin
or any allied rider, actually.
So it doesn't need to be a goblin.
You can use the war spider as you
(21:29):
know, if you want to remove it
from goblins, you totally can.
And so any allied rider that jumps off
the back of the spider has a long jump
of 30 feet and a high jump of 15 feet.
They land safely in the first melee
attack that they make has advantage
after leaping off the spider.
And so, yeah, and that's like speaks
to the fact that this is a mount,
(21:50):
it's, it's trained to launch people
off of it and and, and work with them.
You know, as another trait called
wide to back, which lets essentially
lets two creatures stand in a
space instead of one, so it can
carry more creatures on its back.
And then I do, you know, the bladed legs.
I was really proud of just, just
(22:10):
cause I think that's pretty metal.
That's really all,
Lucas (22:13):
Yeah, we've got a
spider and we've got all,
this scrap metal lying around.
We're tying stuff to its legs, man.
This is, this is happening.
James Introcaso (22:21):
exactly, exactly.
You know.
Lucas (22:23):
Oh gosh, aesthetically,
is there anything?
Hmm.
So the trouble with the monster manuals
is that you're trying to write this
in a, in a way that any DM can use.
But is there is there an aesthetic or
or kind of a, kind of a look that you're
going for, or a genre that you're pulling
from, with the war spider and the way it's
(22:44):
laid out or the way it looks in your head?
James Introcaso (22:46):
yeah, so that's
a, that is a good question.
I think for me There are I used to work
for National Geographic and I promise
this is going to answer your question.
Lucas (22:56):
All right.
I'm on for this ride.
Here we go.
James Introcaso (22:57):
And there's a
show on National Geographic that I
helped promote called Brain Games.
And it's, you know, it's like a fun
show you watch and they do games too.
And, and you see how your brain
reacts and they tell you about it.
So one of the things they'll do is
they'll say, alright, watch your TV.
We're going to run through a
bunch of images very quickly.
And they do do, do, do, do, do,
do all these images at a clip.
(23:18):
And they'll say like, "Hey, did
you see the yellow umbrella?"
No, you didn't.
The images went too fast.
Did you see the, the blue pants?
No, that, you know, and then they'll say,
okay, we're going to do it again with a
different series of images and they do it.
And they have, again, a lot of mundane
images, but within it, they put images
of spiders and snakes and your brain.
(23:40):
I can pick those out.
And the reason your brain can pick those
out is because we evolved in a, in such
a way that people who are already scared
of snakes and spiders had a higher
survival rate when we were, you know,
humans who were living outside or hunting
and gathering more often than we are now
because we avoided venomous creatures.
(24:02):
And so like, there is already something
hardwired in evolution in our brains
about spiders for us to fear them,
not everybody, but, but many people
like genetically fear spiders.
And, and it's a good thing because
there might be less of us if we did not.
So that is all to say the war
spider has a look that is very
(24:23):
similar to a real world spider.
Because we wanted to invoke that,
like you turn the page and you're
like, oh, what is that reaction?
And I remember the first time I
saw the war spider, I had like
a like, whoa, what are we doing?
And for a while, I actually couldn't go
into the artist chat because they were
like sharing pictures of giant jury
Angela's and things like that to be like,
(24:45):
yeah, no, the legs should look like this.
And the mandibles should look like this.
And the but the thing that it has, right?
Like the thing that makes it iconic
is it has all of this gear on it.
So it's got this big platform on the
back and that's really iconic so that
it can hold as many writers as possible.
And then the legs you know,
it's not just a metal strap to
(25:05):
the legs because the goblins.
Like the spider.
They treat it well, they don't
want the spider to come eat them.
And so the, the the blades
are like first, she didn't
leather and tied to the leather.
And then it's, it's almost like the spider
is wearing little boots that allow its
feet to be free so that it can still
grip to stuff and everything, you know?
(25:26):
So like picture, picture of a
boot that just covered your calf
within a blade strapped to it.
So that's kind of the thing.
Now, the goblins themselves
have more of a distinct look.
So we wanted to create like
our own look for goblins.
Lucas (25:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
James Introcaso (25:43):
I think there's
some things about goblins that
people can interpret certainly
as like anti-Semitic right.
I
Lucas (25:49):
That's been one of the
big issues that came up before
James Introcaso (25:54):
yeah,
Lucas (25:55):
it's fraut.
James Introcaso (25:57):
It is, it is.
And I certainly understand it.
And so one of the things that we
did was like, okay, what if instead
of a traditional, like goblin nose
we went with goblins, have a more
pronounced sort of jaw and an almost
protrudes kind of like a canine thing.
And their nose is actually kind
of small and sits a top of that.
(26:19):
And then what if goblins also, like
what if instead of caves all the time
goblins were like arboreal, right?
What, what, what would that look
like if they lived more in trees?
If they had evolved from creatures
that had lived in trees, like maybe
they have like sweet prehensile
tales, or maybe they have, you know,
what, maybe they have a posable toes.
(26:40):
And that's where we ended up is that they
have opposable toes and these like sort
of longer arms that make them look more
arboreal and they are also, they got fur.
They have body hair.
And so there and still, you can
still look at them and you still
know that there are goblin, they
still have sort of some traditional
elf ears that goblins often have.
(27:00):
And, and and you know, their skin
is greenish, but it's fur covered.
And so, like, we wanted to
make our own look for goblins.
And I think it, it turned out pretty well.
So, you know, you'll see a
lot of them in the packet.
We, we have them, so, yeah, that's cool.
Lucas (27:14):
First of all,
who did the art on this?
Or, or did you have an artist
that was assigned to goblins and
the war spiders specifically?
James Introcaso (27:22):
Yeah.
So the war spider specifically
was made by Nick Despain.
And Nick is on staff here at MCM.
So we have three artists on staff and we
also work with contracted artists as well.
And then the goblin look all three
of our artists developed together.
So, Jason Hazenauer, who is
the art director, he's the head
of the art department here.
And Grace Chung and Nick Despain
(27:43):
all work together to create
the look for the goblins.
And, and we went through like
a concept art phase, right?
Like there's a lot of art that no one will
ever see of, of our, well, I mean, you
might maybe we'll release like a concept
art book or something that would be up to
the art team if they wanted to do that.
But it was really fun because
they would be like, well, what
does everybody think of this?
And then the whole staff would
weigh in and say, oh, I, you
(28:03):
know, I think this, I think that.
And the art team would say like, oh,
okay, well, we're going to go back where
they'd say like, you're wrong, James don't
w we're going to keep going whatever.
And and so that was you know, that
was how this all came together.
And that was how the war
spider came together too.
There was a lot of talk about like, you
know, should it be more fantastical?
Should it be more, it should, it, should
it itself have some of the features
(28:24):
of the goblin we were developing.
And, and all that kind of stuff.
And it turns out the answer was no, we
wanted it to be like a big old spider.
And it's the worst thing possible
that's ever happened to me.
Lucas (28:35):
Well, doing all this work
for a new, a new look and a new
design for goblins in general.
Did that come with a section of
lore that you guys had to write
or a new take on it that ended up
in a story section of this work?
James Introcaso (28:48):
Yeah.
So we have not a ton, you know, we have a
lot of staff blocks and we have about the
same amount of lore as you would expect
to see in like the fifth edition monster
Lucas (28:57):
So a few hundred words per.
James Introcaso (28:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
But we do, our lore is I would
say different than what you
would find in the monster manual.
You know, like I said, we start by, by
talking really not about the goblins,
you fight, but about goblins in general.
And we say like all humanoid ancestries,
many different goblins, many goblin
cultures, each with their own ideals.
We talk about that goblins
(29:19):
you know, are one of the most
numerous humanoids in the world.
And they can be found in trees,
ending caves and all over the place.
So we did do a little bit of our own
sort of what our interpretation of the
lore is and how we'd like to use it at
M and our worlds and stuff like that.
And then we talk, then we get into like,
you know, in the third paragraph, we
(29:40):
start talking about like, all right,
so the goblins who face adventures in
combat are like this, then we go down
a little bit more and we talk about
heroic goblins who who go on adventures
themselves, what are they like?
And that sort of thing.
So, and then we also get into
there's a special goblin.
So Matt did a video a long time
ago on action-oriented creatures.
Lucas (30:00):
I've referenced it several
times on the show actually.
James Introcaso (30:03):
oh, excellent.
So we have an, so we have a lot of
action-oriented monsters in the book.
And in our preview the idea of
action-oriented monsters is we
wanted to give you, like, not just,
Hey, here's an action-oriented
goblin, here's an action-oriented,
you know, Overmind or whatever.
We wanted to give you like, here's
(30:23):
the goblin boss and here is the
action-oriented goblin boss.
Her name is Queen Bargnott and here's
the lore about her and here's what
she's about and that kind of thing.
So we give you lore for this one
specific goblin leader named Queen
Bargnott then of course, you know, if
you want to change Queen Bargnott into
a different NPC, you're welcome to do
(30:44):
that and it's and use her stat block.
Lucas (30:46):
Giant is another one of those
words that gets a little bit more
mileage in the monsters monster
design space than it would elsewhere.
So what kind of scale are we talking here?
Just in terms of the monster itself and in
the places in which it's most effective?
James Introcaso (31:03):
/sure.
Yeah.
So, so the war spider is huge
in, in those terms, right?
Your traditional guy giant spider
is large in the monster manual.
So, so huge.
Our war spider is just
a little bit bigger.
And so, so these, again, this is this
is a creature that is when used in
combat, usually like being made to
(31:25):
either defend against a law, a group
of powerful people, or being used
to like assault a compound or, or
another army or something like that.
So you probably won't find.
War spider in every community of goblins,
goblins who are invading places might
have them or those who are worried
(31:47):
about being invaded might have them.
And, and that sort of thing,
it's kind of like, not everyone
owns a tank or has the space
Lucas (31:55):
Don't
James Introcaso (31:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Or even like tanks aren't
effective in every battle.
That's also the idea, right?
This would be in a place that
could accommodate a big
creature that can run around.
They have a an action called Trample
where they move their speed and
everything that they run over with
their bladed leg, they get to attack.
And so it's like, you, you need some
room, you want some room for the
(32:16):
spider and you ideally, you want
some cool stuff that can be climbed.
You know, you want ledges and, and
because that's the fun of a spider is
that they can get to places that, you
know, like an elephant can't climb up
the side of a cliff or a wall, but, oh
man, if they had these war spiders at
Helm's Deep, let me tell you things would
be a little different things would be a
little different in Lord of the Rings.
Lucas (32:41):
Is this meant to operate in kind
of the M CDM broader theater of war?
Is this like built for a thing that you
guys do specifically, or do you expect
people to just kind of have these big
theaters built into their games already?
James Introcaso (32:54):
It's a great question.
So this this book is a little different
from Strongholds & Followers and Kingdoms
& Warfare in that like Strongholds
& Followers and Kingdoms & Warfare are these
things that you can add on to your game.
Probably pretty obvious from the
titles, what they add to your game.
This is a book that we are pitching:
you can use it in addition to your
monster manual or in place of.
(33:15):
The idea here is we're not giving you
a new, entirely new creatures, right?
Every, like we said, everybody's heard
of a goblin before they've you probably
fought them if they've ever played an RPG.
So the idea behind our book
is that you could use it.
Now there are also wholly original
creatures in here as well that, to add
some fun and excitement, and you can use
(33:37):
our goblins with the goblins, from the
monster manual, if you want to, right?
Like you can mix match, you can do
whatever you want, but the intent,
our design intent is that you only
need this book if you want to run
the, the game as far as where are
you going to get your creatures from?
So.
That said it, of course does
some things at differently.
(33:58):
Because we are MCDM and we
want to add some things.
So one of the first things that it does
is we add these companion creatures
retainers for humanoids that are like,
you know, people who follow you around
and the player who is the mentor to the
retainer controls the retainer, right?
Like you have a stat block, it's much
simpler to run than a character sheet, so
you can run them along at the same time.
(34:19):
And we've improved the retainer
rules from Strongholds & Followers.
And so our plan is to like revise
them, you know, keep, keep going.
And then when we're happy with them,
we'll probably go back and revise,
Strongholds & Followers to do there.
We also have companion creatures.
And companion creatures are the
same thing, but for non humanoids
what you might say, sentient,
(34:40):
but not sapient creatures.
So, you know, owlbears and
gelatinous cube, companion,
and all that kind of stuff.
We put out a bunch of companions
already with our Beastheart
class when that came out.
So you, you get a preview of that.
We're adding more of those to
that book, new, like entirely
new in this book will be minions.
So we've been working on like
(35:00):
it's super fun to take on a whole.
Good zombies.
And so we wanted to be able to give you
that feel of like cutting through a field
of zombies or you know, skeletons or if
you're higher level, maybe fire giants.
And so, so this idea of
minions and how do they work?
Because in fifth edition, fourth
edition, it was, they had one hit
(35:21):
point, you hit them and you move
on to the next blah, blah, blah.
Pretty easy.
Fifth edition has some rules
that make that more difficult.
So like, for instance, the sleep
spell very effective against minions.
If everybody just has one hip
point, you know, things like a wall
of fire that just automatically
do damage magic missile, right?
(35:41):
Like you're laying waste
to millions in a way.
It's through play testing, we
have learned is not as effective.
So we have different ways
of, of tackling that.
And there is a, and then we have the
action-oriented creatures, which are
creatures meant to either be fought
alone or creatures that are meant
to be fought like as the leader of
a band in a climactic encounter.
(36:02):
And they have a couple of you know,
underlings around them defending them
and that sort of thing teammates.
So, you know, that's, those are the,
those are the sort of the big things
we're bringing along with a couple
of little innovations, like we're
moving CR to the top, right corner of
the stat I don't know, you know, and
creature rolls and things like that.
We'll probably have some new
encounter building rules to try to
(36:23):
make encounter building a little
easier and and that sort of thing,
but that's, you know, this is mostly
about giving you really cool monsters
to, to run in, in combat encounters
so that you, you and your players.
The most enjoyment there.
And one of the things that we're doing
right is we've learned some lessons.
We tried to do that in
kingdoms and warfare.
We ended up with these massive,
(36:44):
massive stack blocks that went
across two pages and it was like,
okay, we're going to pair that down.
We're going to, we're
going to make it simpler.
Everything you need is on one page.
But we're also committed to like, we
don't want to give you a lot of spells.
So you have to look up
to shorten a stat block.
So, you know, and again, this
is the thing that comes up in
monsters of the multi-verse.
You know, we're, we're giving people
(37:04):
more bespoke, custom features that
are right there in the stat block.
Lucas (37:10):
I want to park in the relationship
to nature because we've, you know,
you have the Beastheart, you have
companions, you have mounts and you have
your own work with National Geographic.
So, my work as a designer has spilled
over into the intersection of, of tabletop
role-playing games and natural history and
how we kind of relate to those together.
I wonder if the, the goblins and
(37:31):
the war spider tell us anything to
your mind and maybe to the, to the
team at M CDM about how heroes and
villains relate to the natural world.
James Introcaso (37:43):
Yeah.
I think, you know, it's, it's interesting,
especially right now we're living.
In a time where nature is in trouble
and in a way that nature is starting to
hit back against humanity to, to sort
of like, Hey, you got to stop burning
those fossil fuels or, or, or you will
be wiped from the face of the earth.
(38:04):
And it's scary.
And I think I like, you know, so
I think about every day sort of
humanity's relationship to nature
in that respect, but also our
relationship to nature in that.
Like, I think we often think of
ourselves, especially if we live
in cities and, and drive cars and
whatever like that, we're separate
that we are somehow not part of nature.
(38:25):
It's wild because we are right.
Like we're living,
breathing, farting creatures.
And, and so we have this connection
to this world that has made us.
And I think sometimes we, we separate
ourselves from that in a bad way.
Like, oh, we have to save the earth.
And we don't think about
like, we have to save us.
(38:46):
That's what we're talking about.
It's not like an act of good will
we're doing, it's a it's self
preservation when we save the earth.
And so I think when you think
about it that way All of
these things go hand in hand.
And so when I think about heroes and
when I like working with nature, I
think often we see in fantasy movies,
this idea that like the heroes are the
ones who they're not mining, right?
(39:07):
Like they're not pillaging the earth.
And and that kind of thing,
they're, they're going out there
and they're working with the ents
to destroy Isengard for instance.
That kind of thing.
And I think it's interesting to
have villains who are not the
ones who are doing that, who
are like, Hey, see this spider?
We actually treat this spider really well.
(39:30):
And that's why this spider works with
us, not because we're like, we're
mean to it and we're kicking it and
we're whipping it or what, like that,
that would never work a huge spider
like that, that we would just eat.
And so it means that goblins,
even the ones who are going to be
villains in this book have this
relationship with nature that is deep.
And, and one that if you're riding a war
(39:53):
spider you understand, and is probably
important because you have friends who
are tied to this, but it's also something
that is that, that is worth defending.
And so I think you know, there's scenarios
in this book where it could be that like,
Hey, you adventurers from the big city
who are out here defending your mine;
(40:13):
have you ever thought about what all of
that runoff is doing to us down here in
our, in our community here in the woods?
And it's like, wow,
that's, that's cool stuff.
And maybe you can get the players who
are playing these heroes to think twice
before they just go in with guns blazing.
And so, that's you know, I hope
that answered your question.
Lucas (40:31):
It did.
Yeah.
That kind of turn from applying a heroic
attribute to, to to a creature that's
functioning in the role of the villain
for the purposes of the story and all the
questions that makes you ask as a player.
James Introcaso (40:48):
So if you are
interested in Flee Mortals, the MCDM
monster book you can head on over
to MCDM productions.com, where there
will be more information there.
Also if it's afterwards, if you're
like, "Oh no, I missed the Kickstarter!"
guess what?
Backerkit's up there, and
we're taking late pledges.
So you can head on over there to
to get your sweet, sweet book.
(41:08):
It's like an exclusive mini and
stuff like that too, that people can
check out, but MCDM productions.com
will have all of the info you need.
Lucas (41:15):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If this show has earned five of
your stars, please leave a rating on
the podcast app of your choice and
consider leaving a review as well.
It's a small thing, but it really does
help new listeners find the show and take
a chance on listening to a few episodes.
And I fully believe that if they
get that far, I can keep them.
You can learn more about the
(41:36):
relationship between D and D and
conservation by checking out Book of
Extinction, a monster manual of extinct
species, resurrected for D and D.
Learn more at scintilla.studio/extinction,
or follow this podcast for more
episodes in the Extinction series.
Thanks also to MCDM and James
Introcaso for being a part of the show.
James Introcaso (41:55):
Lucas, thank you so much,
really for having me really, really fun.
Lucas (41:59):
Yeah.
I really enjoyed our last interview.
MCDM is, doing some really clever stuff.
And you guys have your own outlook on the
game and your own way of moving forward.
So I was really excited to get
to talk about the thing that
you're putting your efforts into.
James Introcaso (42:11):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Like, yeah, it's just been it's
it's this is what my life has been
for a while now, this monster book.
So it's fun to be able to talk about
it with somebody outside of M CDM
too, and, and and see like, oh, okay.
This is a good idea.
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