March 8, 2022 • 35 mins
D&D players have spent almost 50 years breaking the game, creating exploits that became monsters in their own right. This week: the peasant rail gun, an army of hirelings with a light-speed projectile; and the quantum ogre, the monster who is everywhere until it is observed.
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Meet my guests:
Jeremy Vine: www.twitter.com/talumin
Jarrod Jahoda, Mid-Level Adventurers: www.twitter.com/midlvladventure
Danilo Vujevic, Thinking Critically: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk/
Rebecca Gray and Steven Myers, Eberron: A Chronicle of Echoes: https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/
Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rebecca Gray (00:11):
You guys are doing
specific monsters from older.
. .Steve Myers: It's not
specific monsters, cheats.
It is different cheeses.
Cheeses!
We're cheesing things.
I don't know if that's what you call it.
Lucas (00:23):
uh it's going to be what I
call it now, because it's way better.
Because a lot of the ways in
which the game has created its own
lore, its own D&D cryptids started
back in third edition and 3.5.
and Fifth Edition stands at the top of
this teetering tower of nonsense that is
(00:44):
50 years old and has given rise to a huge
variety of things that are just in the
game now and have names and wander about
the world of D&D in the same way that
wandering monsters roam around dungeons.
So
Rebecca Gray (01:00):
peasant rail gun,
Danilo Vujevic (01:01):
something
like the quantum ogre,
Jeremy Vine (01:02):
I loathe
the arrow of destruction,
Lucas (01:04):
the False Hydra,
Jarrod Jahoda (01:06):
a wireless troll,
Steve Myers (01:07):
Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (01:17):
Welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where we look
at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons
and other tabletop RPGs and discover
how they work, why they work and
what they mean for these episodes.
I've assembled a crack team of
D and D podcasters from all over
the world to track down monsters,
born of the system itself.
Jeremy Vine (01:36):
I'm Jeremy vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
Jarrod Jahoda (01:39):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Danilo Vujevic (01:45):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
where we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means in
the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
Rebecca Gray (01:59):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (02:00):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (02:01):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Lucas (02:07):
So let's talk cheese!
uh, One of the most persistent
of these named exploit monsters
is, the peasant rail gun.
Have you heard of this?
Jarrod Jahoda (02:20):
Oh, yes, I have.
So the idea being you get, you
know, a thousand peasants, pay
them, you know, coppers, get them
to line up and pass a spear along.
Rebecca Gray (02:31):
Okay.
I got this, Steve, I got this.
So, rules as written a round
is exactly six seconds.
Now a free action does not necessarily
last that long and everyone gets one free
action that they can do during round.
so you take a bunch of peasants
and you hand a bunch of
peasants, a log a post like that.
Jeremy Vine (02:55):
You get a line of NPCs,
you get your hirelings, you get the
local villagers, whatever it is.
I feel that it's usually
a high level characters.
Low level characters don't really get
a chance to try this, but you get them
all in a long line, usually about two
miles long, and you give the person at
the very far end, a 10 foot pole, you
(03:18):
give them a stick, a whatever it is.
Rebecca Gray (03:21):
then you have
them "free action pass" the log
off to the next person in line.
Which by the laws of physics would
say that by the time you get to the
end of the row of pretty long line
of peasants, that you could pay
off because you're an adventure.
Why the heck not?
Danilo Vujevic (03:41):
But all of these things
happen simultaneously or immediately one
after the other, but they're all still
bound within that time constraints.
Jeremy Vine (03:47):
They ready their action
to pass the stick to the next peasant.
And it goes all the way along
these two miles, because in the
D&D rules, a turn last six seconds.
So you can do whatever you like.
And everybody acts at once.
It's just these six seconds,
uh, somewhat malleable.
But the idea is that these stick
eventually will reach a velocity.
Uh, that when the peasant at the other
(04:08):
end of the line gets it, if they throw it,
it will hit with the force of this train.
Essentially.
I think they say, um, something
like the speed of light.
It'll probably hit out if you've got
enough peasants and along enough line,
Rebecca Gray (04:23):
that log is going
upon of miles per hour, and can
feasibly kill anything in one shot.
Danilo Vujevic (04:34):
So you can accelerate
something to obnoxiously fast velocities
in a, this, this six second scope,
Jarrod Jahoda (04:42):
and then the one at
the end or the fighter, whoever throws
the spear, thus creating a massively
powerful, impactful weapon is the theory.
Lucas (04:52):
The corollary of course is if
you've lined up a bunch of horses,
on that same trajectory, assuming
that you have enough skill in horse
riding, you can dismount and remount
in six seconds and traveled down an
entire line of horses miles long.
Jeremy Vine (05:11):
Just kind of leapfrogging
over from one to the other is just scamper
through and, uh, reach a place before
technically, before you even leave it.
If you've got enough horses and
enough, I love this idea that
eventually people, it would be like
train lines that you just have a line
of horses across the countryside.
That one person just keeps hopping over.
Jarrod Jahoda (05:32):
Now, like all of these
things that we're going to talk about,
they're all kind of brain teasers.
I don't think any DM would actually
allow this to happen because
Lucas (05:41):
run a game, would you?
Jarrod Jahoda (05:42):
Yeah.
I mean, hell no.
Well, here's the deal.
We all accept the reality
disconnect that a round of combat
is the same shared six seconds.
So if a thousand people are doing
one thing and they've all held their
action to pass the spear, along in
that same six seconds, you build
up this ridiculous amount of speed
(06:03):
in a very small amount of time.
And that inertia just massive
damage for some reason, which, okay.
I see why people would
argue that to be the case.
But if you are going to suspend the
disbelief that everything happens
in six seconds, you kind of have to
suspend the belief in physics as well.
(06:26):
You know what I'm saying?
Jeremy Vine (06:29):
And I do love this idea
that when physicists in particular,
because there is this massive crossover
between general science nerds and
D&D nerds when they think, you know
what, I can break this, I can break
this game and there's nothing the
rules say that it can do to stop me.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:50):
Because if you, and
like, what, how do I say this?
If you are going to talk about physics
and inertia, Newton's first law of motion.
I was a physics major for a little while.
Lucas (07:00):
Oh, I'm So glad you're here.
I had someone explain the peasant
rail gun to me as what happens when
physics nerds try to break the game.
Jarrod Jahoda (07:08):
Yes, yes.
I started as a physics
ended up in theater.
You figure it out.
So, the first law of motion, an object
at rest stays at rest and an object in
motion stays in motion with the same
speed and the same direction, unless
acted upon by an unbalanced force.
By the very nature of people
passing a spear, they're
(07:28):
not maintaining any inertia.
They're constantly changing it.
By handing it off to someone who then
grabs it and they're a little bit taller
or their hand is a little bit rougher
or they're wearing gloves or whatever.
You're adding friction, you're changing
the way gravity is affecting it.
And you're changing the momentum involved.
It changes everything so much so quickly
(07:49):
that it might as well just be thrown by
the guy at the end of the line anyway,
cause it's all going to cancel out, right?
You know, forces don't
actually keep objects moving.
In fact, they are
diametrically opposed to that.
Like if you set a book down, it
doesn't just stay down on this table.
Gravity is still acting on it.
But the force of the structure of the
(08:10):
table is stronger than that of gravity.
So that's why the book doesn't
fall through the table.
I mean, there's atoms and
molecular structure and
bonds and stuff in there too.
But in terms of forces, the force
from the table is preventing it from
going to the ground because it's.
Even though gravity is still
pulling it down onto the table,
Lucas (08:31):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda (08:32):
which has really nerdy,
Lucas (08:35):
I mean like we have, Yeah.
we have to get down to this level
of abstraction to discuss this
particular concept because D&D is
a game, was not built for realism.
It was built for balance and,
uh, the fringes where those two
things overlap is where we get
things like the peasant rail gun.
Has this shown up in a game
(08:55):
that you've played or run?
Jarrod Jahoda (08:57):
To smaller degrees.
People have been like, if I hold
my turn to throw him and he holds
his turn to throw me, if he jumps
on me and I jumped on him, can we
get high enough to reach the thing?
And I'm like, okay, sure.
Every one of you has to make a DC 18
(09:18):
acrobatics check to pull this off.
Every single one of you, and only
if you all succeed, does this work,
otherwise people going to get hurt.
So like, so like, no, I would not
let like a peasant rail gun happen,
but if people want to work together
to achieve something plausible.
Yeah.
(09:38):
Okay.
You know, we're talking about a game
that has floating eyeballs and dragons
and squid-headed terrors of the night.
Physics is relative, which actually
is true in our world as well, so
it's at least it's consistent.
Steve Myers (09:58):
One of the things that always
bothered me about that whole thing is
that people immediately assume that like,
logic and physics work out in their favor.
If I was DM-ing that, and someone was
like, "Oh, that's what we're going
to do," I'd be like, "Okay, cool.
just pass it down.
Nothing happens, guys.
I don't know what you're expecting."
She
Rebecca Gray (10:16):
technically like, at
least to here now, now nowadays with
fifth edition you could use a free
action to hand it and then a reaction
to hand it to the next person.
So that is, you're handing it
between two people over six seconds.
Lucas (10:30):
Ah.
Rebecca Gray (10:31):
fast at all.
Steve Myers (10:34):
The problem with
it is, is simple is okay.
You're assuming that that
item is moving at that speed.
I'm gonna make you roll for every one
of those peasants to grab that thing.
Now you've made my life hell.
Now I want you to roll 5,000.
enjoy.
And I'm going to tell you right now,
it's going to get faster and worse.
(10:54):
And eventually going to catch one of those
passes and then just decimate the entire
area because of you, because of you.
Rebecca Gray (11:03):
So I don't like
having to actually pay an organize
that peasant rail gun though.
mean, winding them
Steve Myers (11:10):
up like that.
Lucas (11:12):
Alright go.
Steve Myers (11:13):
points?
What is, what is the point
of that point in time?
Just to have them Fight.
So I
Rebecca Gray (11:19):
guess
Lucas (11:21):
Fight.
Steve Myers (11:22):
if you have an entire
army of people and you're like, I
need a rail gun in order to obliterate
Lucas (11:27):
Oh, I see.
Steve Myers (11:28):
fight.
I mean, come
Lucas (11:30):
of lining up 10,000 peasants
and having them pass the spear
down the line, just have just have.
Rebecca Gray (11:36):
just, just
give them some spheres.
You're going to save money.
Well, then you have to work out
like the lining of things like that
last guy, can't it doesn't have.
any time to like line up the shot before.
Steve Myers (11:52):
Not only that, but you have
to explain that entire premise to 5,000
people, I work with people and I only
work with three other people and they
can't do basic things half the time.
So which way is the spirit?
Is it going that way?
Cause I want to make sure
that I'm passing it right.
I don't want to pass it wrong.
Yeah.
Lucas (12:09):
"I turned it around, I'm sorry."
Steve Myers (12:18):
grabbed the tip too soon.
I thought it wasn't my turn.
I'm sorry.
And they have to have
all hold initiative to?
That.
That
Lucas (12:25):
Oh yeah.
Steve Myers (12:26):
very, complex.
I, in my games if you find a cheese,
you get to use the cheese once
and then you never get to use the
Lucas (12:33):
Uh, As sort of a treat for, for
you, for you putting in the effort to.
Rebecca Gray (12:39):
exactly.
It has to be a new cheese.
If I look up your cheese online
and I find your cheese, I'm sorry.
Steve Myers (12:44):
So I think that it hearkens
back to three, five in particular,
because at that time, everyone viewed
DMs as like an adversary and DM-ing
Lucas (12:52):
Um,
Steve Myers (12:54):
whereas 5E, it's
more, like in three, five, I'm
trying to stop the players.
The players are trying to stop
me the DM in five minutes.
You don't have that
Lucas (13:07):
that's fascinating.
Rebecca Gray (13:08):
that kind of DM.
Yeah.
I mean,
Steve Myers (13:11):
it took me a long time
to break myself of that habit just
because I started out playing where
I assumed the DM was the bad guy.
And so when I was the DM, I wanted
to be the bad guy and Fort my
players instead of helping them.
I'm like, what the hell is the point of.
Hm.
If your players come up with
something good, give it to them.
that's what you should do
(13:32):
if they outsmart your traps.
Good.
That's literally the point that
is fully you wanted for him.
Lucas (13:38):
I want to ask because you have
played older editions, so much of what
these exploits gets at is the relationship
between the DM and their players.
And I have heard that older
editions had a somewhat more
adversarial relationship as the DM.
Was that your experience?
Jeremy Vine (13:53):
I would say yes, but our
only because that would have been
the dynamic that a lot of the younger
groups have, and the older editions
were aimed at a lot of younger players
that those players are still playing.
Now.
I think a lot of those players have
matured and they may still have the
adversarial nature to it, but there was
(14:15):
a somewhat, I mean, you said adversarial,
that's probably the best way that the
DM was trying to kill the players.
And I think occasionally that was just
because the older editions will hide.
It wasn't that you were
trying to kill the players.
It's just, they were a lot less forgiving
when it came to errors and mistakes.
That if you fail to say, if there was
(14:36):
a chance that you would just die flat
out and that wasn't the DM trying to
kill you, it was just the situation.
It's like, we, they wanted you to know
that you're in an incredibly deadly world.
I'm just reading Appendix N by, um,
Peter Bebergal, which is a collection
of all the, some of the short stories
that inspired Gygax originally.
And one of them is a Robert Howard,
(14:57):
uh, The Tower of the Elephant, which
is very, very Dungeons & Dragons.
It's Conan, and I think one of the
first Conan the Barbarian stories of him
breaking into this tower, and he goes in
with a master thief who dies flat out,
like he just tripped a trap and he's dead.
Basically just failed a saving
throw and died immediately.
And this was someone who you
could theoretically say is like a
level 10 character, because he's
(15:18):
quite skilled up until that point.
But it's that idea that some things
that your character is fragile.
And I think that's what older editions
were trying to get the sense of, that
you can be very powerful, you can
have all the magic in the world, but
if you are incautious, if you don't
really notice everything around you,
(15:39):
if you don't think like you actually
would, in that situation, the world
can kill you with a, in a heartbeat.
But I do also feel that there
were a number of dungeon masters
who went, this is a great way
of ruining all the friends fun.
This is just me versus them.
I'm, I've got all the monsters,
the monsters are on my side.
I want to smash them, but they
are powerful too and they'll
(16:00):
be able to smash me back.
So it became more like getting the
action figures and smashing them
together, like a transformers movie.
And I didn't see anything
wrong with that style of play.
I think that can be really fun.
There are a number of times where
I've run games like that, where
I'm just like, I'm going to throw
a dragon at you at fifth level.
Let's see if he can take it.
Let's see what happens.
But yeah, I think older editions were sort
(16:21):
of much more suited to that sort of play.
And I think exploits certainly like
this one would be ones that play as in
those games would want to come up with.
It's like kind of defeating the dungeon
master through the rules is more of a
puzzle than just defeating the monsters.
Lucas (17:20):
Well, talking of DMs,
let's talk about the quantum ogre.
Jeremy Vine (17:24):
I encountered this idea
of the quantum ogre quite a long time
ago when I was looking at, I think
it was a second edition of creative
campaigning book where they just
talk about game design in general
and how to plan adventures and how to
organize your encounters essentially.
And the quantum ogre is the idea
that no matter where the party goes,
(17:45):
no matter what route they take,
they're always going to encounter.
Like, they can go by the waterfall.
They can go through the woods, they
can go, they can organize a cart
and to take them, to the capitol.
It doesn't matter where they go,
there's going to be an ogre on the way.
And sometimes that ogre might be
swimming in the, in the river that
ogre might be coming down the mountain
(18:05):
that ogre might just be lying in wait.
Sometimes if it's poorly planned that
ogre might just be standing in the
middle of the road waiting for them.
But it is something that I, uh,
I feel that it's probably because
I'm a professional dungeon master.
I'm having to prep a lot
of games a lot of the time.
And sometimes it's a lot easier just
to have an, uh, an encounter ready.
And it's usually when your
(18:27):
traveling from one place to
another, it could be anywhere.
It could be going through a
dungeon, but it's an event.
It's an encounter that the dungeon master
needs to happen for whatever reason.
But where it occurs is less important.
Uh, it just needs to be somewhere.
Jarrod Jahoda (18:43):
So the quantum ogre
to me is essentially like you have a
monster in your head that the party
needs to fight for one reason or another.
And it doesn't matter what the party
chooses to do, where they choose to go,
they're going to fight that monster.
Rebecca Gray (18:57):
From what I know of
quantum ogre, it is essentially
similar to, Schrodinger's cat.
This is something that
will happen no matter what.
It is "this ogre exists
and does not exist."
And as a DM, I don't care if an
ogre wouldn't naturally be here.
You're fighting an ogre now."
Jarrod Jahoda (19:17):
It is a
form of Schrodinger's cat.
Yeah.
Which if any of your listeners don't
know is the idea that if you lock a
cat in a box with a vial of poison
that is set to go off at a random
time, at any point in time the cat can
be thought of as both alive and dead.
Lucas (19:34):
I think you might be one of the
people who's most qualified to answer why
it's called the quantum ogre specifically.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:40):
Well, so in, in
physics, the idea of quantum state
or quantum flux is that something
exists everywhere in every possible
way until it's observed because
you don't know until it's observed.
And so that's the idea with this ogre.
It could be anywhere and everywhere
until it's triggered by the DM.
(20:02):
So that's really the idea of it.
Lucas (20:04):
Yeah, Quantum does seem to be
one of those words that's almost like
a free pass, like a get out of jail
free card for science fiction writers.
Like put quantum in front of it, that
makes it cool and interesting, but I
feel like we've, this is one of those
cases in which it's applied in the sense
in which it's understood in physics.
Is that right?
Jarrod Jahoda (20:22):
I believe it is.
Yeah.
There's a great line in a Futurama
episode, actually, where they're
watching like races of like quantum
sized horses or something like that.
And they announced, oh,
this guy is the winner.
And professor Farnsworth goes crazy.
He's like, ah, you change the
results by observing them.
That's not fair.
Which is exactly what
(20:42):
happens in quantum physics.
Lucas (20:46):
And this is part and
parcel with a conversation about
railroading as a DM, which I'm sure
we could do an entire podcast on.
Given the, uh, railroading is
reducing player agency, how much
do you rely on the quantum ogre?
And if you do then, then
what's the argument there.
Danilo Vujevic (21:02):
D&D is hard.
The more I play, the more I talk about
it, the more I talked to other people
about it and have new perspectives on
it and have discussions like this, the
more I'm like man, to do it consistently.
Well, however many people you
have around the table is hard.
And this is one of those things that
makes it hard is trying to understand
(21:25):
where you can or where you should do
something like the quantum ogre as a DM.
And this, it's one of these things that
comes with funnily enough experience
and knowing when it's okay to do
it, knowing when your players might
spot it, but knowing that they'll
be okay, cause they trust you as
the DM, that it kind of makes sense.
And they're okay to go with the
journey on you and don't go, oh,
(21:47):
you, you know, kick up a fuss.
When in reality you're all
there for a good story.
And you got to trust the DM
to give you a good story.
That is the nuance that is just so
outside of my, you need decades and
decades of actively doing these things
to really be able to have a good take
on any given situation when you might
(22:10):
need to utilize the quantum ogre, um,
That is my get out of jail free card,
Lucas (22:18):
No, I
love it.
Danilo Vujevic (22:19):
How can anybody do that
consistently all the time and make these
micro macro decisions that have micro
macro impacts when you're trying to
manage the expectations of however many
people, including your own at the table?
It's difficult.
And it's my main defense to any player
ever is like, the thing that we're doing
might seem easy, but in reality is hard.
(22:42):
So if you're having fun well done
because it's hard and, and the, and the
quantum ogre is a very, very, very good
example of what makes it hard for us.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:52):
and people argue that,
oh, it takes away player agency and
it alters the true like idea of free
will and choice within the game.
And to a degree, I agree with that
sentiment, but also there are things
that just need to happen in the game.
Otherwise you're just going to
be narrating a bunch of NPCs at a
bar, every game session, you know?
(23:16):
So I do use quantum ogres for specific
plot points for like random encounters.
I don't do that kind of stuff.
Like.
Smart about how they travel through the
wilderness or through the town or the
track bad guy or whatever they're doing.
If they're smart about it and they
(23:37):
roll well, I'm going to reward that.
And sometimes they
don't even need to roll.
Like if they come up with a brilliant
idea, just like in their head and
they're like, oh, we want to use
this crazy thing that I know exists.
And I'm like, you know,
that's real world enough.
And you obviously know
what you're talking about.
So sure.
It works.
It just works because, you
know, I didn't think of that.
(23:58):
But specific plot point creatures,
monsters, and NPCs, bad guys, whatever.
I think they really need to be
fought or at least encountered,
maybe not, maybe they can talk them
down or convince them to help them
or whatever they're going to do.
So I don't use them in the, like, you
have to fight and kill this thing.
I'm like you have to encounter it,
Steve Myers (24:19):
I feel like it's just
natural because sometimes when
you're DM-ing, it is nice to prepare.
And if your players are like, well,
no, we're going to go on the fly and
do something completely different than.
what am I supposed to do?
You asked me to come in,
you've asked me to run a game.
I'm trying to play a
game that's fun for you.
I have all of the stat blocks
for this specific thing.
(24:40):
I had the entire fight planned out.
Guys, we're going in that direction.
Sorry, It's not meant to be mean.
It's just, I think that sometimes
you as a DM get stuck in these,
well, this is what we're going to do.
Yeah.
I I'm bad about that.
I think a lot of times where I draw, so
I I'm terrible when it comes to DMing.
(25:01):
Cause I plan nothing.
And then I just will randomly grab stuff.
But when I did plan things,
this is what I would do.
And then people would get mad about,
well, I don't want to have to fight
that they wouldn't be in here.
What is a sand dragon doing in the ocean?
I don't know guys, if you
tell me why it's there.
I
Lucas (25:17):
That's what I had.
Steve Myers (25:19):
yeah, that's
what I got for the high.
I told you where the
campaign was starting.
You guys decided to board a boat.
I don't, do you guys want from me?
Rebecca Gray (25:30):
Yeah.
I think that that quantum ogre is, is
something that every DM does at least
once, because, I've got this really cool
encounter and I really want to do it!"
But sometimes players are
difficult because they, they
decide to do what they want to.
Steve Myers (25:45):
I think it's, again, the
part of that adversarial role is that you,
as a DM have set the limits and now I'm
going to test them and I'm going to push
the boundaries on that and make it, so
that way it's fun for me because you've
said, Hey, this is where we're going.
And I'm like, ah, yeah, but I'm
going to make it more difficult for
you to do what you have planned.
Lucas (26:04):
The quantum ogre does tend to get a
bad rap in it for exactly the same reasons
that railroading or the idea of like
leading the players along on adventure
path in this supposedly open-world
game, that prioritizes player choice.
We've brought up a couple of
reasons why railroading might not
deserve the reputation that I get.
Rebecca Gray (26:25):
As a player, I
try to railroad other players.
Steve Myers (26:30):
I was going to say, I,
I, as a player, I try and cooperate
with the DM as much as possible.
Rebecca Gray (26:36):
Steve will um, we played
in a Pathfinder game where you know,
there's this basin of obviously cursed
water and look at this basin of obviously
cursed water and we're like, Yeah.
we're not going to do anything that bad.
Thanks.
Bye.
And Steven.
Steve Myers (26:51):
You know what, not
only am I going to drink out of it,
I'm going to bathe in it, splash
it on my face, clean myself up.
But I think that I, I tend to
be rewarded for doing that.
Like the DM is understanding and
makes my character not more of an
integral part of everything, but.
Lets me in on like details, you
(27:12):
know, like, I went through and I
drank that water and I learned all
of the stuff about that curse water
and the curse that was put on me.
It gave the DM the ability to use me as
a vessel to help further the plot, which
made me an integral part of the story.
Even though I didn't actually matter.
just, think that you have to do that.
(27:32):
Sometimes railroading is not as
bad as everyone makes it out to be.
I think it is okay to try and test the
limits of your world and see where the
egg is and find where the horizon is
and see where everything drops out.
But then also be willing to play in the
space that you're given, just because
it's a sandbox doesn't mean you need
to, you know, every corner of it you
(27:54):
can in the world, if you can cooperate.
Rebecca Gray (27:57):
I think railroading also
gets a bad rap because are people who
railroad wrong in, in that I can railroad.
Giving you the option of choice,
like quantum ogre you can go left.
Or you can go, right.
But either way you are
still going straight.
I have only actually prepared this one
(28:20):
path, but I'm pretending that you can
actually branch out and do other things.
There are some people who go, no,
it's this one thing, no matter
what, I'm not going to show
you any, any form of, choice.
And if your character walks
south, then they'll die.
Steve Myers (28:38):
because
Rebecca Gray (28:39):
your actual direction,
you guys need to go is north.
So you.
Physically walked south anymore.
Sometimes if your DM is building
on your backstories and creating
a world involving you, it doesn't
feel like you're being railroaded.
You're obviously being manipulated.
They're obviously using your entire
story to make the story about you taking
(29:00):
away some of your agency, but you don't
feel that way because you're invested.
Whereas other DMs, you know,
make everything about them,
Lucas (29:10):
right.
Yeah.
So, so the better version of this
is lead me to the plot rather than.
You know,
uh,
Rebecca Gray (29:17):
plot on me.
Lucas (29:18):
right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a kind of, it's a kind
of game design jujitsu.
Steve Myers (29:23):
I think, yeah, because you
will run into players who are problematic
and don't want the plot thrust upon them
no matter what, who were like, well,
I'm a loner I'm not a part of anything.
And I don't have a reason to be
Lucas (29:35):
wrong in a game
about party dynamics.
Steve Myers (29:38):
Just one little thing,
Lucas (29:40):
Yeah.
I call it buying the ticket.
Rebecca Gray (29:45):
that's good.
Jeremy Vine (29:45):
Now I get why people say is
around already thing because it basically
it's taking away that player agency of
it doesn't matter which direction we go.
We're still going to encounter the ogre.
I don't always see that as
true, because if you it's always
that I leave it as the doubt.
It's like, if you take in the
road, maybe you wouldn't have
(30:06):
encountered the banners, but you did.
You took the ocean.
So you encountered the pirates instead,
and it's the same, same encounter,
but why mechanically it's the same
encounter, but the reasons why
it's happening is always different.
Um, and I do like to see it in
a little bit, like you don't
just have them out of nowhere.
If somebody says, oh yeah,
we need to go by boat.
It's like, oh, you better watch out for
(30:27):
the pirates then it's like, yeah, you
got to encounter the pirates because
that's kind of what you'd expect.
Lucas (30:33):
yeah.
That's Chekhov's gun.
Uh,
Jeremy Vine (30:35):
Well, let them know that
there might be pirates ahead of time and
Lucas (30:39):
is essentially the same as
being like, there's gotta be pirates.
Jeremy Vine (30:43):
Yeah.
And again, if I had to choose the road,
it's like, well, watch half abandons.
And honestly, do you probably would
say that no matter what, because the
chances are, they might be bandits.
Lucas (30:55):
Yep.
This is a dangerous
world and, uh, it will eat
Jeremy Vine (30:58):
Yeah.
Danilo Vujevic (30:59):
The example I had in
this instance, it was the destination,
uh, end of a waterfall, my players
missing misinterpreted a map.
They could have gone down path A,
which is the correct air quotes path.
Or they could have gone down path B,
which is anywhere else in the world.
they misinterpreted the admittedly
poorly, uh, drawn map that I provided
(31:21):
them and they went down path B and my
quandary, then there's a DM was like,
okay, Did they just want that aimlessly
for the next, however many hours in
game, but then that's, then the world
is real and they've just been lost.
And that kind of makes sense.
And it's punishment for them.
And it makes sense.
And they use resources, which is
like an account in and of itself.
And all these other things are spinning
(31:42):
around, but then on the other, uh,
but then on the other hand, it's
like, that's boring and that's, maybe
that's not really fun then maybe they
won't enjoy that kind of playstyle.
Maybe it doesn't really add
anything to the game that they
you've got lost for four hours.
And maybe I should just give them
that sense of achievement that, that
you've found the right way in the end.
I heard on my, my first response,
(32:04):
which was no, you just get
lost in this hot sweaty jungle.
That's gross and you're tired and
you want to go home until you realize
eventually couple of successful
checks, a couple of successful hours
later, you've gone the wrong way.
Backtrack you go.
And the players learn a
lesson, I suppose, which is.
Lucas (32:25):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If this episode has entertained
or enlightened you in any way,
please share it with the people
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Your recommendation will go a
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And it's a real gift to me
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You could also leave me a like, or a
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(32:46):
or your podcast player of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really does
help new listeners discover the show.
If you really like what I'm doing,
you can support me through the book of
extinction, a project I'm creating with
Mage Hand Press that enables D and D
players to make a real difference in the
climate crisis and rapidly accelerating
mass extinction by telling the stories
(33:07):
of the animals that we have already lost.
There are already five episodes
of Making a Monster about
the creatures in that book.
So set this podcast feed to newest first
and take a journey with me into a world
wilder and more fascinating than you
probably thought it could be special.
Thanks to my collaborators on
these exploit monsters episodes.
Jeremy Vine (33:27):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
You can find me on social media on
Twitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,
or you can listen to my podcasts
Tell Me About Your D&D Character,
which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV
Jarrod Jahoda (33:42):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
I'm one half of the creative team.
Matt is the other half, or you can
catch Matt and I on Newly Forged,
which is our Twitch stream D&D game.
It's a homebrew game set in a
post-apocalyptic magical world.
(34:03):
And, uh, you can follow us on
Instagram, Twitter at mid LVL
adventure to keep updated.
And we've recently started releasing
our podcast episodes on YouTube as well.
Danilo Vujevic (34:14):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
where we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means in
the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
that has been going on now for almost 65
episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops
(34:36):
everything from your esoteric, left-field,
weird things that you would never
attribute to D&D all the way to encounters
and experience, and much more obvious
topics, including soft skills, such as
friendship and social and meta things such
(34:57):
as podcasts, which was a weird itself.
Naval Naval gazing.
One to record.
Rebecca Gray (35:03):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (35:04):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (35:06):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
It's a very different kind of podcast.
We're a little bit scripted, a little
bit improv and a whole lot of fun.
So we hope that you'll stop in
and check us out and find out what
it's like when D&D meets radio.
Lucas (35:25):
We'll be back next week.
See you then!
You guys are doing
specific monsters from older.
. .Steve Myers: It's not
specific monsters, cheats.
It is different cheeses.
Cheeses!
We're cheesing things.
I don't know if that's what you call it.
Lucas (00:23):
uh it's going to be what I
call it now, because it's way better.
Because a lot of the ways in
which the game has created its own
lore, its own D&D cryptids started
back in third edition and 3.5.
and Fifth Edition stands at the top of
this teetering tower of nonsense that is
(00:44):
50 years old and has given rise to a huge
variety of things that are just in the
game now and have names and wander about
the world of D&D in the same way that
wandering monsters roam around dungeons.
So
Rebecca Gray (01:00):
peasant rail gun,
Danilo Vujevic (01:01):
something
like the quantum ogre,
Jeremy Vine (01:02):
I loathe
the arrow of destruction,
Lucas (01:04):
the False Hydra,
Jarrod Jahoda (01:06):
a wireless troll,
Steve Myers (01:07):
Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (01:17):
Welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where we look
at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons
and other tabletop RPGs and discover
how they work, why they work and
what they mean for these episodes.
I've assembled a crack team of
D and D podcasters from all over
the world to track down monsters,
born of the system itself.
Jeremy Vine (01:36):
I'm Jeremy vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
Jarrod Jahoda (01:39):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Danilo Vujevic (01:45):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
where we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means in
the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
Rebecca Gray (01:59):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (02:00):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (02:01):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Lucas (02:07):
So let's talk cheese!
uh, One of the most persistent
of these named exploit monsters
is, the peasant rail gun.
Have you heard of this?
Jarrod Jahoda (02:20):
Oh, yes, I have.
So the idea being you get, you
know, a thousand peasants, pay
them, you know, coppers, get them
to line up and pass a spear along.
Rebecca Gray (02:31):
Okay.
I got this, Steve, I got this.
So, rules as written a round
is exactly six seconds.
Now a free action does not necessarily
last that long and everyone gets one free
action that they can do during round.
so you take a bunch of peasants
and you hand a bunch of
peasants, a log a post like that.
Jeremy Vine (02:55):
You get a line of NPCs,
you get your hirelings, you get the
local villagers, whatever it is.
I feel that it's usually
a high level characters.
Low level characters don't really get
a chance to try this, but you get them
all in a long line, usually about two
miles long, and you give the person at
the very far end, a 10 foot pole, you
(03:18):
give them a stick, a whatever it is.
Rebecca Gray (03:21):
then you have
them "free action pass" the log
off to the next person in line.
Which by the laws of physics would
say that by the time you get to the
end of the row of pretty long line
of peasants, that you could pay
off because you're an adventure.
Why the heck not?
Danilo Vujevic (03:41):
But all of these things
happen simultaneously or immediately one
after the other, but they're all still
bound within that time constraints.
Jeremy Vine (03:47):
They ready their action
to pass the stick to the next peasant.
And it goes all the way along
these two miles, because in the
D&D rules, a turn last six seconds.
So you can do whatever you like.
And everybody acts at once.
It's just these six seconds,
uh, somewhat malleable.
But the idea is that these stick
eventually will reach a velocity.
Uh, that when the peasant at the other
(04:08):
end of the line gets it, if they throw it,
it will hit with the force of this train.
Essentially.
I think they say, um, something
like the speed of light.
It'll probably hit out if you've got
enough peasants and along enough line,
Rebecca Gray (04:23):
that log is going
upon of miles per hour, and can
feasibly kill anything in one shot.
Danilo Vujevic (04:34):
So you can accelerate
something to obnoxiously fast velocities
in a, this, this six second scope,
Jarrod Jahoda (04:42):
and then the one at
the end or the fighter, whoever throws
the spear, thus creating a massively
powerful, impactful weapon is the theory.
Lucas (04:52):
The corollary of course is if
you've lined up a bunch of horses,
on that same trajectory, assuming
that you have enough skill in horse
riding, you can dismount and remount
in six seconds and traveled down an
entire line of horses miles long.
Jeremy Vine (05:11):
Just kind of leapfrogging
over from one to the other is just scamper
through and, uh, reach a place before
technically, before you even leave it.
If you've got enough horses and
enough, I love this idea that
eventually people, it would be like
train lines that you just have a line
of horses across the countryside.
That one person just keeps hopping over.
Jarrod Jahoda (05:32):
Now, like all of these
things that we're going to talk about,
they're all kind of brain teasers.
I don't think any DM would actually
allow this to happen because
Lucas (05:41):
run a game, would you?
Jarrod Jahoda (05:42):
Yeah.
I mean, hell no.
Well, here's the deal.
We all accept the reality
disconnect that a round of combat
is the same shared six seconds.
So if a thousand people are doing
one thing and they've all held their
action to pass the spear, along in
that same six seconds, you build
up this ridiculous amount of speed
(06:03):
in a very small amount of time.
And that inertia just massive
damage for some reason, which, okay.
I see why people would
argue that to be the case.
But if you are going to suspend the
disbelief that everything happens
in six seconds, you kind of have to
suspend the belief in physics as well.
(06:26):
You know what I'm saying?
Jeremy Vine (06:29):
And I do love this idea
that when physicists in particular,
because there is this massive crossover
between general science nerds and
D&D nerds when they think, you know
what, I can break this, I can break
this game and there's nothing the
rules say that it can do to stop me.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:50):
Because if you, and
like, what, how do I say this?
If you are going to talk about physics
and inertia, Newton's first law of motion.
I was a physics major for a little while.
Lucas (07:00):
Oh, I'm So glad you're here.
I had someone explain the peasant
rail gun to me as what happens when
physics nerds try to break the game.
Jarrod Jahoda (07:08):
Yes, yes.
I started as a physics
ended up in theater.
You figure it out.
So, the first law of motion, an object
at rest stays at rest and an object in
motion stays in motion with the same
speed and the same direction, unless
acted upon by an unbalanced force.
By the very nature of people
passing a spear, they're
(07:28):
not maintaining any inertia.
They're constantly changing it.
By handing it off to someone who then
grabs it and they're a little bit taller
or their hand is a little bit rougher
or they're wearing gloves or whatever.
You're adding friction, you're changing
the way gravity is affecting it.
And you're changing the momentum involved.
It changes everything so much so quickly
(07:49):
that it might as well just be thrown by
the guy at the end of the line anyway,
cause it's all going to cancel out, right?
You know, forces don't
actually keep objects moving.
In fact, they are
diametrically opposed to that.
Like if you set a book down, it
doesn't just stay down on this table.
Gravity is still acting on it.
But the force of the structure of the
(08:10):
table is stronger than that of gravity.
So that's why the book doesn't
fall through the table.
I mean, there's atoms and
molecular structure and
bonds and stuff in there too.
But in terms of forces, the force
from the table is preventing it from
going to the ground because it's.
Even though gravity is still
pulling it down onto the table,
Lucas (08:31):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda (08:32):
which has really nerdy,
Lucas (08:35):
I mean like we have, Yeah.
we have to get down to this level
of abstraction to discuss this
particular concept because D&D is
a game, was not built for realism.
It was built for balance and,
uh, the fringes where those two
things overlap is where we get
things like the peasant rail gun.
Has this shown up in a game
(08:55):
that you've played or run?
Jarrod Jahoda (08:57):
To smaller degrees.
People have been like, if I hold
my turn to throw him and he holds
his turn to throw me, if he jumps
on me and I jumped on him, can we
get high enough to reach the thing?
And I'm like, okay, sure.
Every one of you has to make a DC 18
(09:18):
acrobatics check to pull this off.
Every single one of you, and only
if you all succeed, does this work,
otherwise people going to get hurt.
So like, so like, no, I would not
let like a peasant rail gun happen,
but if people want to work together
to achieve something plausible.
Yeah.
(09:38):
Okay.
You know, we're talking about a game
that has floating eyeballs and dragons
and squid-headed terrors of the night.
Physics is relative, which actually
is true in our world as well, so
it's at least it's consistent.
Steve Myers (09:58):
One of the things that always
bothered me about that whole thing is
that people immediately assume that like,
logic and physics work out in their favor.
If I was DM-ing that, and someone was
like, "Oh, that's what we're going
to do," I'd be like, "Okay, cool.
just pass it down.
Nothing happens, guys.
I don't know what you're expecting."
She
Rebecca Gray (10:16):
technically like, at
least to here now, now nowadays with
fifth edition you could use a free
action to hand it and then a reaction
to hand it to the next person.
So that is, you're handing it
between two people over six seconds.
Lucas (10:30):
Ah.
Rebecca Gray (10:31):
fast at all.
Steve Myers (10:34):
The problem with
it is, is simple is okay.
You're assuming that that
item is moving at that speed.
I'm gonna make you roll for every one
of those peasants to grab that thing.
Now you've made my life hell.
Now I want you to roll 5,000.
enjoy.
And I'm going to tell you right now,
it's going to get faster and worse.
(10:54):
And eventually going to catch one of those
passes and then just decimate the entire
area because of you, because of you.
Rebecca Gray (11:03):
So I don't like
having to actually pay an organize
that peasant rail gun though.
mean, winding them
Steve Myers (11:10):
up like that.
Lucas (11:12):
Alright go.
Steve Myers (11:13):
points?
What is, what is the point
of that point in time?
Just to have them Fight.
So I
Rebecca Gray (11:19):
guess
Lucas (11:21):
Fight.
Steve Myers (11:22):
if you have an entire
army of people and you're like, I
need a rail gun in order to obliterate
Lucas (11:27):
Oh, I see.
Steve Myers (11:28):
fight.
I mean, come
Lucas (11:30):
of lining up 10,000 peasants
and having them pass the spear
down the line, just have just have.
Rebecca Gray (11:36):
just, just
give them some spheres.
You're going to save money.
Well, then you have to work out
like the lining of things like that
last guy, can't it doesn't have.
any time to like line up the shot before.
Steve Myers (11:52):
Not only that, but you have
to explain that entire premise to 5,000
people, I work with people and I only
work with three other people and they
can't do basic things half the time.
So which way is the spirit?
Is it going that way?
Cause I want to make sure
that I'm passing it right.
I don't want to pass it wrong.
Yeah.
Lucas (12:09):
"I turned it around, I'm sorry."
Steve Myers (12:18):
grabbed the tip too soon.
I thought it wasn't my turn.
I'm sorry.
And they have to have
all hold initiative to?
That.
That
Lucas (12:25):
Oh yeah.
Steve Myers (12:26):
very, complex.
I, in my games if you find a cheese,
you get to use the cheese once
and then you never get to use the
Lucas (12:33):
Uh, As sort of a treat for, for
you, for you putting in the effort to.
Rebecca Gray (12:39):
exactly.
It has to be a new cheese.
If I look up your cheese online
and I find your cheese, I'm sorry.
Steve Myers (12:44):
So I think that it hearkens
back to three, five in particular,
because at that time, everyone viewed
DMs as like an adversary and DM-ing
Lucas (12:52):
Um,
Steve Myers (12:54):
whereas 5E, it's
more, like in three, five, I'm
trying to stop the players.
The players are trying to stop
me the DM in five minutes.
You don't have that
Lucas (13:07):
that's fascinating.
Rebecca Gray (13:08):
that kind of DM.
Yeah.
I mean,
Steve Myers (13:11):
it took me a long time
to break myself of that habit just
because I started out playing where
I assumed the DM was the bad guy.
And so when I was the DM, I wanted
to be the bad guy and Fort my
players instead of helping them.
I'm like, what the hell is the point of.
Hm.
If your players come up with
something good, give it to them.
that's what you should do
(13:32):
if they outsmart your traps.
Good.
That's literally the point that
is fully you wanted for him.
Lucas (13:38):
I want to ask because you have
played older editions, so much of what
these exploits gets at is the relationship
between the DM and their players.
And I have heard that older
editions had a somewhat more
adversarial relationship as the DM.
Was that your experience?
Jeremy Vine (13:53):
I would say yes, but our
only because that would have been
the dynamic that a lot of the younger
groups have, and the older editions
were aimed at a lot of younger players
that those players are still playing.
Now.
I think a lot of those players have
matured and they may still have the
adversarial nature to it, but there was
(14:15):
a somewhat, I mean, you said adversarial,
that's probably the best way that the
DM was trying to kill the players.
And I think occasionally that was just
because the older editions will hide.
It wasn't that you were
trying to kill the players.
It's just, they were a lot less forgiving
when it came to errors and mistakes.
That if you fail to say, if there was
(14:36):
a chance that you would just die flat
out and that wasn't the DM trying to
kill you, it was just the situation.
It's like, we, they wanted you to know
that you're in an incredibly deadly world.
I'm just reading Appendix N by, um,
Peter Bebergal, which is a collection
of all the, some of the short stories
that inspired Gygax originally.
And one of them is a Robert Howard,
(14:57):
uh, The Tower of the Elephant, which
is very, very Dungeons & Dragons.
It's Conan, and I think one of the
first Conan the Barbarian stories of him
breaking into this tower, and he goes in
with a master thief who dies flat out,
like he just tripped a trap and he's dead.
Basically just failed a saving
throw and died immediately.
And this was someone who you
could theoretically say is like a
level 10 character, because he's
(15:18):
quite skilled up until that point.
But it's that idea that some things
that your character is fragile.
And I think that's what older editions
were trying to get the sense of, that
you can be very powerful, you can
have all the magic in the world, but
if you are incautious, if you don't
really notice everything around you,
(15:39):
if you don't think like you actually
would, in that situation, the world
can kill you with a, in a heartbeat.
But I do also feel that there
were a number of dungeon masters
who went, this is a great way
of ruining all the friends fun.
This is just me versus them.
I'm, I've got all the monsters,
the monsters are on my side.
I want to smash them, but they
are powerful too and they'll
(16:00):
be able to smash me back.
So it became more like getting the
action figures and smashing them
together, like a transformers movie.
And I didn't see anything
wrong with that style of play.
I think that can be really fun.
There are a number of times where
I've run games like that, where
I'm just like, I'm going to throw
a dragon at you at fifth level.
Let's see if he can take it.
Let's see what happens.
But yeah, I think older editions were sort
(16:21):
of much more suited to that sort of play.
And I think exploits certainly like
this one would be ones that play as in
those games would want to come up with.
It's like kind of defeating the dungeon
master through the rules is more of a
puzzle than just defeating the monsters.
Lucas (17:20):
Well, talking of DMs,
let's talk about the quantum ogre.
Jeremy Vine (17:24):
I encountered this idea
of the quantum ogre quite a long time
ago when I was looking at, I think
it was a second edition of creative
campaigning book where they just
talk about game design in general
and how to plan adventures and how to
organize your encounters essentially.
And the quantum ogre is the idea
that no matter where the party goes,
(17:45):
no matter what route they take,
they're always going to encounter.
Like, they can go by the waterfall.
They can go through the woods, they
can go, they can organize a cart
and to take them, to the capitol.
It doesn't matter where they go,
there's going to be an ogre on the way.
And sometimes that ogre might be
swimming in the, in the river that
ogre might be coming down the mountain
(18:05):
that ogre might just be lying in wait.
Sometimes if it's poorly planned that
ogre might just be standing in the
middle of the road waiting for them.
But it is something that I, uh,
I feel that it's probably because
I'm a professional dungeon master.
I'm having to prep a lot
of games a lot of the time.
And sometimes it's a lot easier just
to have an, uh, an encounter ready.
And it's usually when your
(18:27):
traveling from one place to
another, it could be anywhere.
It could be going through a
dungeon, but it's an event.
It's an encounter that the dungeon master
needs to happen for whatever reason.
But where it occurs is less important.
Uh, it just needs to be somewhere.
Jarrod Jahoda (18:43):
So the quantum ogre
to me is essentially like you have a
monster in your head that the party
needs to fight for one reason or another.
And it doesn't matter what the party
chooses to do, where they choose to go,
they're going to fight that monster.
Rebecca Gray (18:57):
From what I know of
quantum ogre, it is essentially
similar to, Schrodinger's cat.
This is something that
will happen no matter what.
It is "this ogre exists
and does not exist."
And as a DM, I don't care if an
ogre wouldn't naturally be here.
You're fighting an ogre now."
Jarrod Jahoda (19:17):
It is a
form of Schrodinger's cat.
Yeah.
Which if any of your listeners don't
know is the idea that if you lock a
cat in a box with a vial of poison
that is set to go off at a random
time, at any point in time the cat can
be thought of as both alive and dead.
Lucas (19:34):
I think you might be one of the
people who's most qualified to answer why
it's called the quantum ogre specifically.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:40):
Well, so in, in
physics, the idea of quantum state
or quantum flux is that something
exists everywhere in every possible
way until it's observed because
you don't know until it's observed.
And so that's the idea with this ogre.
It could be anywhere and everywhere
until it's triggered by the DM.
(20:02):
So that's really the idea of it.
Lucas (20:04):
Yeah, Quantum does seem to be
one of those words that's almost like
a free pass, like a get out of jail
free card for science fiction writers.
Like put quantum in front of it, that
makes it cool and interesting, but I
feel like we've, this is one of those
cases in which it's applied in the sense
in which it's understood in physics.
Is that right?
Jarrod Jahoda (20:22):
I believe it is.
Yeah.
There's a great line in a Futurama
episode, actually, where they're
watching like races of like quantum
sized horses or something like that.
And they announced, oh,
this guy is the winner.
And professor Farnsworth goes crazy.
He's like, ah, you change the
results by observing them.
That's not fair.
Which is exactly what
(20:42):
happens in quantum physics.
Lucas (20:46):
And this is part and
parcel with a conversation about
railroading as a DM, which I'm sure
we could do an entire podcast on.
Given the, uh, railroading is
reducing player agency, how much
do you rely on the quantum ogre?
And if you do then, then
what's the argument there.
Danilo Vujevic (21:02):
D&D is hard.
The more I play, the more I talk about
it, the more I talked to other people
about it and have new perspectives on
it and have discussions like this, the
more I'm like man, to do it consistently.
Well, however many people you
have around the table is hard.
And this is one of those things that
makes it hard is trying to understand
(21:25):
where you can or where you should do
something like the quantum ogre as a DM.
And this, it's one of these things that
comes with funnily enough experience
and knowing when it's okay to do
it, knowing when your players might
spot it, but knowing that they'll
be okay, cause they trust you as
the DM, that it kind of makes sense.
And they're okay to go with the
journey on you and don't go, oh,
(21:47):
you, you know, kick up a fuss.
When in reality you're all
there for a good story.
And you got to trust the DM
to give you a good story.
That is the nuance that is just so
outside of my, you need decades and
decades of actively doing these things
to really be able to have a good take
on any given situation when you might
(22:10):
need to utilize the quantum ogre, um,
That is my get out of jail free card,
Lucas (22:18):
No, I
love it.
Danilo Vujevic (22:19):
How can anybody do that
consistently all the time and make these
micro macro decisions that have micro
macro impacts when you're trying to
manage the expectations of however many
people, including your own at the table?
It's difficult.
And it's my main defense to any player
ever is like, the thing that we're doing
might seem easy, but in reality is hard.
(22:42):
So if you're having fun well done
because it's hard and, and the, and the
quantum ogre is a very, very, very good
example of what makes it hard for us.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:52):
and people argue that,
oh, it takes away player agency and
it alters the true like idea of free
will and choice within the game.
And to a degree, I agree with that
sentiment, but also there are things
that just need to happen in the game.
Otherwise you're just going to
be narrating a bunch of NPCs at a
bar, every game session, you know?
(23:16):
So I do use quantum ogres for specific
plot points for like random encounters.
I don't do that kind of stuff.
Like.
Smart about how they travel through the
wilderness or through the town or the
track bad guy or whatever they're doing.
If they're smart about it and they
(23:37):
roll well, I'm going to reward that.
And sometimes they
don't even need to roll.
Like if they come up with a brilliant
idea, just like in their head and
they're like, oh, we want to use
this crazy thing that I know exists.
And I'm like, you know,
that's real world enough.
And you obviously know
what you're talking about.
So sure.
It works.
It just works because, you
know, I didn't think of that.
(23:58):
But specific plot point creatures,
monsters, and NPCs, bad guys, whatever.
I think they really need to be
fought or at least encountered,
maybe not, maybe they can talk them
down or convince them to help them
or whatever they're going to do.
So I don't use them in the, like, you
have to fight and kill this thing.
I'm like you have to encounter it,
Steve Myers (24:19):
I feel like it's just
natural because sometimes when
you're DM-ing, it is nice to prepare.
And if your players are like, well,
no, we're going to go on the fly and
do something completely different than.
what am I supposed to do?
You asked me to come in,
you've asked me to run a game.
I'm trying to play a
game that's fun for you.
I have all of the stat blocks
for this specific thing.
(24:40):
I had the entire fight planned out.
Guys, we're going in that direction.
Sorry, It's not meant to be mean.
It's just, I think that sometimes
you as a DM get stuck in these,
well, this is what we're going to do.
Yeah.
I I'm bad about that.
I think a lot of times where I draw, so
I I'm terrible when it comes to DMing.
(25:01):
Cause I plan nothing.
And then I just will randomly grab stuff.
But when I did plan things,
this is what I would do.
And then people would get mad about,
well, I don't want to have to fight
that they wouldn't be in here.
What is a sand dragon doing in the ocean?
I don't know guys, if you
tell me why it's there.
I
Lucas (25:17):
That's what I had.
Steve Myers (25:19):
yeah, that's
what I got for the high.
I told you where the
campaign was starting.
You guys decided to board a boat.
I don't, do you guys want from me?
Rebecca Gray (25:30):
Yeah.
I think that that quantum ogre is, is
something that every DM does at least
once, because, I've got this really cool
encounter and I really want to do it!"
But sometimes players are
difficult because they, they
decide to do what they want to.
Steve Myers (25:45):
I think it's, again, the
part of that adversarial role is that you,
as a DM have set the limits and now I'm
going to test them and I'm going to push
the boundaries on that and make it, so
that way it's fun for me because you've
said, Hey, this is where we're going.
And I'm like, ah, yeah, but I'm
going to make it more difficult for
you to do what you have planned.
Lucas (26:04):
The quantum ogre does tend to get a
bad rap in it for exactly the same reasons
that railroading or the idea of like
leading the players along on adventure
path in this supposedly open-world
game, that prioritizes player choice.
We've brought up a couple of
reasons why railroading might not
deserve the reputation that I get.
Rebecca Gray (26:25):
As a player, I
try to railroad other players.
Steve Myers (26:30):
I was going to say, I,
I, as a player, I try and cooperate
with the DM as much as possible.
Rebecca Gray (26:36):
Steve will um, we played
in a Pathfinder game where you know,
there's this basin of obviously cursed
water and look at this basin of obviously
cursed water and we're like, Yeah.
we're not going to do anything that bad.
Thanks.
Bye.
And Steven.
Steve Myers (26:51):
You know what, not
only am I going to drink out of it,
I'm going to bathe in it, splash
it on my face, clean myself up.
But I think that I, I tend to
be rewarded for doing that.
Like the DM is understanding and
makes my character not more of an
integral part of everything, but.
Lets me in on like details, you
(27:12):
know, like, I went through and I
drank that water and I learned all
of the stuff about that curse water
and the curse that was put on me.
It gave the DM the ability to use me as
a vessel to help further the plot, which
made me an integral part of the story.
Even though I didn't actually matter.
just, think that you have to do that.
(27:32):
Sometimes railroading is not as
bad as everyone makes it out to be.
I think it is okay to try and test the
limits of your world and see where the
egg is and find where the horizon is
and see where everything drops out.
But then also be willing to play in the
space that you're given, just because
it's a sandbox doesn't mean you need
to, you know, every corner of it you
(27:54):
can in the world, if you can cooperate.
Rebecca Gray (27:57):
I think railroading also
gets a bad rap because are people who
railroad wrong in, in that I can railroad.
Giving you the option of choice,
like quantum ogre you can go left.
Or you can go, right.
But either way you are
still going straight.
I have only actually prepared this one
(28:20):
path, but I'm pretending that you can
actually branch out and do other things.
There are some people who go, no,
it's this one thing, no matter
what, I'm not going to show
you any, any form of, choice.
And if your character walks
south, then they'll die.
Steve Myers (28:38):
because
Rebecca Gray (28:39):
your actual direction,
you guys need to go is north.
So you.
Physically walked south anymore.
Sometimes if your DM is building
on your backstories and creating
a world involving you, it doesn't
feel like you're being railroaded.
You're obviously being manipulated.
They're obviously using your entire
story to make the story about you taking
(29:00):
away some of your agency, but you don't
feel that way because you're invested.
Whereas other DMs, you know,
make everything about them,
Lucas (29:10):
right.
Yeah.
So, so the better version of this
is lead me to the plot rather than.
You know,
uh,
Rebecca Gray (29:17):
plot on me.
Lucas (29:18):
right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a kind of, it's a kind
of game design jujitsu.
Steve Myers (29:23):
I think, yeah, because you
will run into players who are problematic
and don't want the plot thrust upon them
no matter what, who were like, well,
I'm a loner I'm not a part of anything.
And I don't have a reason to be
Lucas (29:35):
wrong in a game
about party dynamics.
Steve Myers (29:38):
Just one little thing,
Lucas (29:40):
Yeah.
I call it buying the ticket.
Rebecca Gray (29:45):
that's good.
Jeremy Vine (29:45):
Now I get why people say is
around already thing because it basically
it's taking away that player agency of
it doesn't matter which direction we go.
We're still going to encounter the ogre.
I don't always see that as
true, because if you it's always
that I leave it as the doubt.
It's like, if you take in the
road, maybe you wouldn't have
(30:06):
encountered the banners, but you did.
You took the ocean.
So you encountered the pirates instead,
and it's the same, same encounter,
but why mechanically it's the same
encounter, but the reasons why
it's happening is always different.
Um, and I do like to see it in
a little bit, like you don't
just have them out of nowhere.
If somebody says, oh yeah,
we need to go by boat.
It's like, oh, you better watch out for
(30:27):
the pirates then it's like, yeah, you
got to encounter the pirates because
that's kind of what you'd expect.
Lucas (30:33):
yeah.
That's Chekhov's gun.
Uh,
Jeremy Vine (30:35):
Well, let them know that
there might be pirates ahead of time and
Lucas (30:39):
is essentially the same as
being like, there's gotta be pirates.
Jeremy Vine (30:43):
Yeah.
And again, if I had to choose the road,
it's like, well, watch half abandons.
And honestly, do you probably would
say that no matter what, because the
chances are, they might be bandits.
Lucas (30:55):
Yep.
This is a dangerous
world and, uh, it will eat
Jeremy Vine (30:58):
Yeah.
Danilo Vujevic (30:59):
The example I had in
this instance, it was the destination,
uh, end of a waterfall, my players
missing misinterpreted a map.
They could have gone down path A,
which is the correct air quotes path.
Or they could have gone down path B,
which is anywhere else in the world.
they misinterpreted the admittedly
poorly, uh, drawn map that I provided
(31:21):
them and they went down path B and my
quandary, then there's a DM was like,
okay, Did they just want that aimlessly
for the next, however many hours in
game, but then that's, then the world
is real and they've just been lost.
And that kind of makes sense.
And it's punishment for them.
And it makes sense.
And they use resources, which is
like an account in and of itself.
And all these other things are spinning
(31:42):
around, but then on the other, uh,
but then on the other hand, it's
like, that's boring and that's, maybe
that's not really fun then maybe they
won't enjoy that kind of playstyle.
Maybe it doesn't really add
anything to the game that they
you've got lost for four hours.
And maybe I should just give them
that sense of achievement that, that
you've found the right way in the end.
I heard on my, my first response,
(32:04):
which was no, you just get
lost in this hot sweaty jungle.
That's gross and you're tired and
you want to go home until you realize
eventually couple of successful
checks, a couple of successful hours
later, you've gone the wrong way.
Backtrack you go.
And the players learn a
lesson, I suppose, which is.
Lucas (32:25):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If this episode has entertained
or enlightened you in any way,
please share it with the people
who play D and D with you.
Your recommendation will go a
long way to helping people trust
me with their time and attention.
And it's a real gift to me
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You could also leave me a like, or a
five star review on Spotify, iTunes,
(32:46):
or your podcast player of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really does
help new listeners discover the show.
If you really like what I'm doing,
you can support me through the book of
extinction, a project I'm creating with
Mage Hand Press that enables D and D
players to make a real difference in the
climate crisis and rapidly accelerating
mass extinction by telling the stories
(33:07):
of the animals that we have already lost.
There are already five episodes
of Making a Monster about
the creatures in that book.
So set this podcast feed to newest first
and take a journey with me into a world
wilder and more fascinating than you
probably thought it could be special.
Thanks to my collaborators on
these exploit monsters episodes.
Jeremy Vine (33:27):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
You can find me on social media on
Twitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,
or you can listen to my podcasts
Tell Me About Your D&D Character,
which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV
Jarrod Jahoda (33:42):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
I'm one half of the creative team.
Matt is the other half, or you can
catch Matt and I on Newly Forged,
which is our Twitch stream D&D game.
It's a homebrew game set in a
post-apocalyptic magical world.
(34:03):
And, uh, you can follow us on
Instagram, Twitter at mid LVL
adventure to keep updated.
And we've recently started releasing
our podcast episodes on YouTube as well.
Danilo Vujevic (34:14):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
where we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means in
the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
that has been going on now for almost 65
episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops
(34:36):
everything from your esoteric, left-field,
weird things that you would never
attribute to D&D all the way to encounters
and experience, and much more obvious
topics, including soft skills, such as
friendship and social and meta things such
(34:57):
as podcasts, which was a weird itself.
Naval Naval gazing.
One to record.
Rebecca Gray (35:03):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (35:04):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (35:06):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
It's a very different kind of podcast.
We're a little bit scripted, a little
bit improv and a whole lot of fun.
So we hope that you'll stop in
and check us out and find out what
it's like when D&D meets radio.
Lucas (35:25):
We'll be back next week.
See you then!
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