March 21, 2022 • 34 mins
The best game-breaking exploits in D&D. This week: the false hydra, the most terrifying homebrew monster ever made; and the Kung Fu Kraken, an ancient titan of the deep somehow less effective than a straw dummy.
Read the transcript and get more from the show:
https://scintilla.studio/monster-false-hydra-kung-fu-kraken/
Get stat blocks, bonus content, and other monstrous perks: www.patreon.com/scintillastudio
Join the conversation: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter
Meet my guests:
Jeremy Vine: www.twitter.com/talumin
Jarrod Jahoda, Mid-Level Adventurers: www.twitter.com/midlvladventure
Danilo Vujevic, Thinking Critically: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk/
Rebecca Gray and Steven Myers, Eberron: A Chronicle of Echoes: https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/
Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Myers (00:10):
wish Lucas had never
shared this with me because now
I can't be surprised with it.
And it's so sad.
Jarrod Jahoda (00:16):
I believe in the
poetry of a nat one, just as much as
I believe in the artistry of a Nat 20.
Rebecca Gray (00:22):
you guys are doing
specific monsters from older.
Steve Myers (00:25):
It's not
specific monsters cheats.
It is different cheeses,
Rebecca Gray (00:30):
Cheeses!
We're cheesing things I don't
know if that's what you call it.
Lucas (00:34):
uh it's going to be what I
call it now, because it's way better.
Because a lot of the ways in
which the game has created its own
lore, its own D&D cryptids started
back in third edition and 3.5.
and Fifth edition stands at the top of
this teetering tower of nonsense that is
(00:55):
50 years old and has given rise to a huge
variety of things that are just in the
game now and have names and wander about
the world of D&D in the same way that
wandering monsters roam around dungeons.
So
Rebecca Gray (01:11):
peasant rail gun,
Danilo Vujevic (01:12):
something
like the quantum ogre,
Jeremy Vine (01:13):
I loathe
the arrow of destruction,
Lucas (01:15):
the False Hydra,
Jarrod Jahoda (01:17):
a wireless troll,
Steve Myers (01:18):
Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (01:26):
Welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where we look
at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons
and other tabletop RPGs and discover
how they work, why they work and
what they mean for these episodes.
I've assembled a crack team of
D and D podcasters from all over
the world to track down monsters,
born of the system itself.
Jeremy Vine (01:46):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
Jarrod Jahoda (01:48):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Danilo Vujevic (01:55):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
Rebecca Gray (02:01):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (02:03):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (02:04):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Lucas (02:10):
So let's talk cheese!
uh,
This next monster isn't so much
an exploit as, as a homebrew, but
it's on the list because of how
resilient this idea has become.
Near as I can tell, this idea first
appeared, in September of 2014.
And somehow in that seven years, it
has accomplished, I think maybe the
(02:32):
same amount of mythologizing as some of
the things like the peasant rail gun.
this is the false Hydra.
This is one of those instances in
which I w kind of wish I was making
a video podcast, because when I
say that everyone's face changes
and it's never been the same twice.
If you've heard of this, where was
(02:53):
the first time you heard about it?
Danilo Vujevic (02:55):
This is again
lucky for you because this
is a very pertinent in that.
Um, I, someone who I used to DM
for a little, little short campaign
that a while ago, they, recently,
Hey, can I get your advice?
I'm thinking of running this and it
happened to be a false hydra and, and
we're talking like three months ago.
They messaged me this.
(03:16):
I saw the mentioned false hydra and
immediately I thought, oh, cool.
Is that going to be like a
water dwelling snake thing, but
maybe it only has like two heads,
which is why it's a false hydra.
I could not have been more
incredibly wrong in that
interpretation of that definition.
Lucas (03:34):
And I think,
Steve Myers (03:34):
looks awful.
It looks so awful.
Lucas (03:37):
yeah, Arnold has chosen
a variety of horrifying images
from around the internet.
Some of them, I think are
involved in an old, creepy pasta
about a Zelda game cartridge.
Um,
Rebecca Gray (03:50):
no, that is a monster
from Legend of Zelda (03:51):
Ocarina of Time.
Lucas (03:53):
oh, okay.
Rebecca Gray (03:54):
You fight it twice, once it
as an adult, once as a kid, I think, but
Steve Myers (03:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, man, I, I played Ocarina of Time
and I don't remember it's in the ballroom.
Rebecca Gray (04:05):
It's a creature.
You fight in the bottom
of the, well, I'm sorry.
I know that game backwards and forwards.
Jeremy Vine (04:10):
I've encountered the blog.
Well, actually a separate blog post
before about the idea of a false hydra,
because my interpretation of the false
hydra is that it kind of takes, your
recollection of the hydra itself, that
when you are devoured by this hydra,
your, the memory of you is erased
from reality, that to everyone who
(04:32):
knew you, you just no longer exist.
Danilo Vujevic (04:33):
And so I read it
all and so clearly you were very on
the money because it is still very
much in vogue and people are still
very much trying to incorporate it.
Broadly it is this creature that
calls upon a number of tropes that
we've seen in many popular culture.
I think that The Silence in Doctor
Who being a very obvious correlation
where it fandangles with people's
(04:56):
memory, essentially, Um, perception
of reality so that it is this all
pervasive, clearly not benign creature.
This is not benign force that manipulates
people's memories and perception of
reality so that they never notice it.
They never see it's there, or
the effects that it has on their
world, such as killing people.
(05:17):
They will cease to remember those
people and go on as, as normal as to
secure its safety and, and to growth.
Steve Myers (05:26):
The false hydra always
felt like the silence from Doctor
Who is that was what the premise was.
It's something you look and
you acknowledge is there, and
then you can roll to forget it.
And that is absolutely horrifying
that you could know this thing
is there outside of character and
be able to do nothing with that.
Jarrod Jahoda (05:47):
Yeah, it was a
mental mind shenanigan crazy thing.
Like it was like, whoa,
this is blowing your mind.
And I don't know which came first chicken
or the egg, because I just don't know.
Lucas (06:01):
Uh, first appearance,
2011 (06:03):
The Impossible Astronaut.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:06):
ah, so maybe then it
was inspired by, or maybe they just
came up with the idea separately, but
Lucas (06:11):
Yeah.
Sort of case of convergent evolution.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:14):
which it's just a great
idea, having this monster that is
really more about the psychological
terror of it than anything else.
It's subconscious fear.
It is that like it's almost horror esque
really as opposed to like a fantasy.
Steve Myers (06:34):
And it just slowly
takes over a town by just
removing people one by one by one.
And it's, is such a horrifying idea.
And it's not often that you get to
see "DM cheese" where they get to
fudge the rules and make things a
little more exciting and fun for them.
And it's disturbing and upsetting.
(06:54):
And I, I can't get enough of it.
I cannot get enough of it.
I just want to play, I mean, I
don't want to play in a game with
it because if I play in a game
with it now, I'll know what's there
and it takes away all the fun.
wish Lucas had never shared this with me
because now I can't be surprised with it.
And it's so sad.
Lucas (07:12):
I've heard that this
is one of those things that is
extremely difficult to pull off.
If you had to run a false hydra,
do you think you'd try and do it?
And if so, how would you set this up?
Jarrod Jahoda (07:24):
Well, if any of
my players are listening, no, I
would never try to do that ever.
But if I was going to try to
do it, they wouldn't know.
Uh, no, I, I would probably take,
I probably wouldn't do the whole,
like it rose out of the ground
through grubs and whatever.
I would probably be a
little more wacky with it.
(07:45):
Cause I kinda like that still dangerous
and crazy, but a little more wacky.
So I would have, I think, a, a, a town
where people are happy all the time.
There's no like existential dread and
there's always new housing opening up.
Um, so they're always like, Hey, we just
have this new house that just opened up
(08:06):
over here, like you should check that out.
And so they constantly are
getting new people in the
town because it's a paradise.
Nobody ever has any problems,
which automatically in my
book makes it suspicious
Lucas (08:17):
Oh, yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda (08:20):
there's no problems
because any like bandits or anything
that come along immediately succumb to
the hydra, because the hydra keeps like
a core number of town, people around
to lure in new people at all times.
So I would put it more in like a
opportunistic parasite, as opposed to just
like, oh, I'm going to eat everything.
(08:41):
Um, because like it is doing some
good it's taking out baddies and
protecting these core people,
but everyone else is just food.
Lucas (08:51):
Wow.
Yeah.
I love that.
Cause that's, it's not, then it's not
quite cut and dried as a, it's only a
Jarrod Jahoda (08:58):
I love moral
ambiguity in my games.
I'm all about it.
I always give my bad guy a good
reason for being a bad guy.
Jeremy Vine (09:07):
So I've never
encountered this before.
I feel that this is something that
is incredibly difficult to achieve
as a dungeon master, to have that
level of knowledge of like that
level of planning as well of, yes,
these people no longer exist and If
a character is taken by, it's like,
well, how do you, how do you do that?
(09:29):
It's that, complete buy-in of
the world that is very difficult
to achieve in my opinion.
I love the idea around it now.
I'm not sure if this is the blog post
that you sent, the way I encountered
it was a, somebody was saying that they
decided to use the false hydra in a game.
And that they just had the party sitting
(09:50):
around and notice some bloodstains and
there's like, that's weird, but all right.
And eventually they found the
false hydra and they killed them.
And, um, they went back to town and
were given a portrait that had been
painted by, um, like an actual portrait.
And it actually had a character, a
member of the party who they'd never met.
(10:14):
And the idea was that at some point,
this character had gone on watch
and being, and by the hydra and the
fact that the character had never
had a play I'd never existed at all.
They just completely sign it
in that you've lost these party
member that you now never remember.
Lucas (10:32):
That's amazing.
Jeremy Vine (10:34):
that's, that's how
I encountered the false Hydra.
I just thought this is genius.
If you can pull that off, your
players will remember that forever.
Absolutely.
And the certainly the blog
post I've, um, that I've seen
overall is like this horror.
(10:55):
It's designing a horror creature.
Um, that idea that once it
kills you, no one remembers you.
It's like, that's something that just
takes a little bit of a trigger in my mind
has got no, I didn't like that at all.
That's a squeak that, that terrifies me.
Lucas (11:08):
Do you think you could pull it off?
Like running a false
hydra for your players?
Danilo Vujevic (11:15):
I guess
the different, okay.
The definition of whether I could pull it
off or not, I would leave to my players.
Lucas (11:24):
enough.
Danilo Vujevic (11:25):
um, I would say, I would
like to think so if, only for the fact
of I would overplan and make sure and
spend all way too long on things that
won't get used or won't even get to see
the light of day so that it would just
be in a complete fail, safe system,
(11:46):
ecology, where they do, they'd always be
something exciting to do, but there's the
fact of the matter is basically no one,
including myself, has that freedom has
that length of time available to them to
really make it like maybe I'm completely
a naysayer and pessimistic is clearly
it's, it's popular and people do it.
Lucas (12:07):
Well, I think you're right in
that it works a lot better on paper
than it does in practice because
of the people I've asked about this
most have not been confident that,
uh, they would want to make the
attempt or that they could provide a
satisfying experience if they did, or
(12:28):
that it would be worth it in the end,
because there's so much going on here.
It's a loaded question,
"could you do this?"
which is kind of why I ask it.
Danilo Vujevic (12:40):
Yeah, I mean,
I would agree with them.
I hate being like, "with experience"
or "with, with knowledge," but I
can't, I've done this podcast for
however many years and not picked up.
Some peripheral peripheral experience.
So absolutely this and many
other things, I'm sure.
Go seem rad on a first glance to,
(13:04):
to maybe a less experienced DM.
Now but I'm just perhaps more
cognizant of various pitfalls
having fallen in then myself.
So yeah, it's less experienced DM
seeing something like the false hydra
and that's, oh, that'll be really cool.
That'd be really atmospheric.
And I can have the bomb and have
a picture of his family behind
(13:25):
the bar, but he doesn't know
who the woman or the child are.
He just thinks it's a selfie.
And then that the players asked
the question, like what happened
to the woman and the child and
the photo when he goes around the
woman and the child in the photo.
That'd be fun and exciting.
Yeah, sure.
That is.
But then, but then what,
you know, w w how, how do we
really get something out of.
(13:47):
And, and you kind of do that.
As I said, a couple of times before the
players go, everyone here is crazy and
that's, that's it, that's the story.
And we move on how this weird town
full of the people who don't know,
who can't understand what a photo is.
And then everybody gets frustrated,
which is the worst case.
That's like, that's the fail state.
(14:08):
The fail state is everybody
including the DM is just like,
we don't know what's going on.
I don't know how to make other
people know what's going on there.
Lucas (14:17):
yeah.
Yeah, because running a mystery in
D&D is very difficult, running a
mystery where the solution to the
mystery is actively erasing the clues.
Uh, Also really difficult.
Danilo Vujevic (14:33):
Yep.
Lucas (14:34):
There's miles of depth on this
Danilo Vujevic (14:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Um, you, you just you'd need to be.
novelist to, to, to like in a sense,
because it has to be a lot of, it has
to be scripted to a certain extent.
You're, you're almost pushing
that point of more scripted
gameplay rather than freeform.
Steve Myers (14:57):
I like the idea behind it and
it would be really fun to do a one-shot
involving it, but I can't imagine.
Th just the mental logistics
that go into thinking like, wow,
okay, now there's a monster.
You have to fight that you don't know.
Is there, what do you do?
What, what do you even
do in that scenario?
Rebecca Gray (15:19):
Yeah.
Cause, cause you're asking for
a lot from your players, not
to metagame if you're using it.
Steve Myers (15:25):
Oh no.
I mean metagame at that point in
time please, because the only way
you're going to get out of that
is by thinking outside of the box.
Cause everything's straightforward.
You would have assumed has
been tried time And time again.
You have to have to
come up with something.
I mean, oh God, no, no.
And
Rebecca Gray (15:43):
I don't,
Steve Myers (15:44):
I don't like it.
I don't have a lot to say on it.
Lucas (16:43):
so much of what's happening
in the game is being influenced
by what's happening at the table.
And to that point, there's, there's some
of this cheese that's influenced by what's
happening within the game system itself.
Which leads me to Larry,
the Kung Fu Kraken.
Steve Myers (16:59):
Oh man.
Larry, the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (17:06):
Uh,
Steve Myers (17:07):
makes sense, but hate it.
I hate it so much.
Lucas (17:10):
yeah.
So this relies on a discussion of
fumble mechanics or, or critical fails.
Rebecca Gray (17:16):
so with five E I mean,
there's not a lot of credit fail rules.
A lot of that's going to be on the DM.
You critically fail and I
mean, you miss real bad.
There might be a few suggestions in the
DM's Guide, but for the most part nothing
really bad happens if you critically
fail on a hit or a skill check or
anything like that, but with Pathfinder
Steve Myers (17:38):
And 3.5.
Rebecca Gray (17:39):
In 3.5, there were
very hard rules as to what could
happen when you critically fail.
And so think I'm gonna just
come to the through line here.
I think that it, it goes back to the
adversarial aspects of 3.5 and Pathfinder
in particular because you want to be
able to punish your players occasionally
(18:00):
and you don't really get to do that.
And by having them roll a one, you're
saying, well, now you've messed up
and I get to do something to you.
Lucas (18:07):
Yeah.
Monster of the Week calls
it "taking a hard move."
Steve Myers (18:12):
Yeah.
I think that five E has made a good
decision getting away from that.
I think that you can fail and
still have bad things happen.
And I think taking a hard move is
a way that it can be done without
it being as punishing as it was.
even like the cards for Pathfinder,
they have the crit fail cards.
I don't know if those were
official or they were official.
(18:34):
Yeah.
uh,
Lucas (18:38):
what's on a crit fail card?
Steve Myers (18:39):
So we had the critical
success cards, which were always
like, oh, you're doing so good.
And then crit fails like, oh, okay.
You you've dropped her weapon
and you've cut off your toe.
And now you're going to have problems
with balance for the rest of the game.
Yeah.
Rebecca Gray (18:49):
Or you accidentally
kicked up some dust and you're
blinded for the next minute.
Some of them got like bad enough that
it was like you fall on your sword.
Steve Myers (18:57):
Yeah, so,
Rebecca Gray (18:58):
you are now dying.
Jeremy Vine (18:59):
And that's kind of
what the critical fail was that
sometimes when you roll the one,
you would have a separate table.
Something bad even was,
has happened to you.
And you'd have to roll on that.
And it might be you just drop your weapon.
It might be that you attack
your ally next to you.
Instead, it might be
that you stab yourself.
It might, there's a whole range
of things that would could occur.
Steve Myers (19:20):
Back in the day.
Like one, you rolled a one.
And so for, for twenties,
you, you had to roll a D 20.
And if you got a 20, you had to roll
a confirm and you had to beat the AC.
Now, if you rolled a second 20,
so two twenties in a row we would
go into like, oh man, you're doing
exceedingly well, try it again.
You get three twenties in a
row, you insta-kill something.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:40):
Once I actually
got three twenties in a row,
so I insta-killed something.
Lucas (19:42):
Oh my gosh.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:44):
was, I don't even know
what the odds were, but it was crazy.
One in like 1600 chance I
had, something like that.
Lucas (19:51):
we can live in
that moment if you want.
You can tell me that story.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:54):
I mean, it was crazy.
I was playing a ranger and I was
having a hard go at it because
it was this monster creature.
And I didn't ha I think it was a plant
and I didn't have any magical weapons.
And it was like resistant
to all my attacks.
But then I just happened to roll three 20.
I rolled the 20 and he was
like, okay, confirm it.
And I was like, okay.
I, I got the crit and I
(20:15):
was like, just go for it.
And I roll the third 20, couldn't
believe it, and somehow with my non
magical attacks, I killed a thing that
was resistant to non-magical damage
because I wrote three twenties in a row.
The odds were insane.
Somehow I did it.
And after the game he realized that
(20:35):
well, plant creatures are actually
immune to critical hits, but I
was like, don't rob this from me!
Lucas (20:40):
This happened!
Man, three and a half was wild.
Jarrod Jahoda (20:45):
yeah.
Lucas (20:45):
what was even going on back then?
Jarrod Jahoda (20:48):
Yeah.
I didn't have a single
character that lasted more
than like five sessions in 3.5.
Lucas (20:54):
Wow.
I've had one character last three years.
Jarrod Jahoda (20:59):
I am amazed
and awed by your skill.
Lucas (21:03):
It has nothing to do with it.
I think it's more five E's fault, this
actually kind of brings me back around.
Cause one of the things that people have
told me about older editions is that there
was a much more adversarial relationship
between the DM and the players.
Like you, like this world is going to kill
you and I'm the guy who's going to do it.
And it's your job to
figure out how to survive.
Jarrod Jahoda (21:25):
Yes.
Very much.
So those first, I mean, those
first sessions until that character
died and my three edition game,
it was always like, everything
was trying to kill our characters.
It wasn't about like building
up as heroic adventure journey.
It was about how can I kill you?
Lucas (21:39):
Hm.
Jarrod Jahoda (21:41):
My 3.5 adventures were
similar, but less so that I think that's
just because the DM was a nicer human.
And certainly in fourth edition when
I started DM-ing and I was really
bad at it, I took that mindset
because that's the only one I knew.
And then I was talking to him and I was
like, I'm not having this fun this way.
(22:01):
I'm just going to make it be
more of like, I'm a neutral party
and you'll have to fight things.
And if you die, you die and I'm
not going to get involved in it.
Lucas (22:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was but let me circle back to
critical success or critical fails.
What is the thought experiment
of the Kung Fu Kraken?
Jarrod Jahoda (22:20):
So it's this idea that a
kraken who is trained in martial arts can
attack essentially 18 times on a term.
Right.
means
Lucas (22:33):
We're counting what eight we're
counting eight limbs and then a few extra.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:37):
yeah, so like it's
like eight limbs and multi attack.
So that's two attacks per limb.
And I think there's a, I forget
what they were called, but they were
equivalent of bonus action "flurry
of blows" attack kind of deal.
Jeremy Vine (22:51):
There's a
whole range of things.
It could have tentacles, it could have
massive teeth, it could have pseudopods,
but he gets a lot of attacks is the point.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:59):
Yeah, a
lot of attacks in a turn.
And statistically, if you roll a D
20 that many times, there's a certain
number of times that's going to come up
as a one, which is a critical failure.
Your increased likelihood therefore means
that you are weaker at fighting and more
likely to succumb to a failure table
(23:20):
and kill yourself, because that was one
of the options on these failure tables.
Like I have seen failure tables
that are like, you decapitate
yourself, you chop off your arm.
And I'm like, whoa, dude, I don't
know how that's possible, but so
Euro, but that being said, I do
support the idea of crit fails.
(23:42):
Like I like that idea, uh, you
know, in 3.5, like critical
failures were definitely a thing.
And so were critical successes and five
E they've kind of dropped the critical
fail part and just kept the success part.
But I still use critical fail, but I'm
a lot nicer with my critical fails.
(24:05):
And that essentially what
I do is I do it by level.
If you are a levels, one
through five, someone is going
to take one D four damage.
Lucas (24:12):
Okay.
Yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda (24:13):
So enough to kind of be
annoying, but generally not enough to kill
you unless you're a wizard and enrolled a
two on your Um, and then it increases so
like six through 10 as a D six, a D eight
for 11 through 15 and 16 through twenties,
uh, D 10, but it's just one die of damage.
(24:33):
But what I add to it is
Lucas (24:36):
Ah,
Jarrod Jahoda (24:37):
a condition effect.
like you could overextend and maybe
you overextend by your opponent's
sword and you get cut for two points
of damage, but then you fall prone
Lucas (24:51):
Yeah, bad news.
Jarrod Jahoda (24:52):
and like
that ends your turn.
Or, you know, if there's like three
potential people who could suffer,
like if you're an archer and you
roll it out, could fling back on you.
It could hit the fighter next
to the enemy, or it could hit
the road next to the enemy.
So all three of the players rolled a
D 20 and it's a straight luck roll,
(25:12):
whoever gets the lowest, gets the ping.
And then, you know, that can be like,
Hey, watch where you're shooting.
And fun.
So I believe in the poetry of a
nat one, just as much as I believe
in the artistry of a Nat 20,
but I don't want to be a Dick about it.
(25:33):
I just want to be annoying about it.
Um, which has a long round of saying,
I like the idea of these failure
tables, but I think in previous
editions they were too aggressive.
Lucas (25:49):
do you critical
fail on skill checks?
Danilo Vujevic (25:51):
um, no,
so not in, not okay.
Let me, let me define that
for, you know, if they wrote a
one, but if they still failed.
Badly which could be on a two or
it could just be the DC was so high
that the chances of failure high
and failing catastrophically as
(26:12):
high, you know, it's gonna happen.
And it's probably never
as hard or as harsh.
There's no punitive, the most punishment
it will get is you're trying to run
leap or dive across a skill check.
For example, a physical activity
you full prone is probably as hard.
You know, you fall on your ass
(26:32):
because it's kind of half role-play
ha look at the buffoon, but also half.
Yes, you're going to have
to spend five for a moment.
If we're not in combat,
that's not really an issue.
So no one really minds.
Um, and then for social encounters,
It's I always tend to run, um, you
(26:52):
know, nothing's binary in my game.
So a critical fail quote, unquote,
isn't going to just immediately turn
anyone to be like, oh, now I want to
punch you in the face because humans
don't really operate like that.
It takes quite a lot for, to get me
to want to punch somebody in the face.
Like we're talking like quite egregious
things here, not just somebody
(27:13):
asking for more money off an item
and then doing it in an awkward way.
Doesn't immediately make me
hate that person in this.
And that's how I try and run my MPCs.
So it, you know, a critical fail
would just be like, do you know what?
Just leave my store please.
Cause you're wasting my time and not
whoops, you throw the coin because
you fell over and you throw it in
(27:34):
the merchants face and now the guards
want you is not to me is not, is
just, doesn't really make sense.
Lucas (27:42):
You are
Danilo Vujevic (27:42):
I very much
subscribe to that train of thought.
That's like when people say.
They try and persuade the king, give
me a crown so I can be king and you can
make them roll, uh, because although it's
impossible and you shouldn't really get
players to roll for things are impossible.
The outcome is very variable.
(28:05):
So a 20 plus would be like, ha, you
can be my court justice because what
a funny joke you just said, and I'm
not going to throw you in prison.
Whereas, you know, D you
don't hit DC five, which
typically one tends to not hit.
Uh, then he's like, you've insulted me
and you're going in prison for the night.
(28:27):
Uh, so that, that sliding
scale, which again, is kind of
in independent of a one or not
Jeremy Vine (28:36):
I never really used them.
I felt that that was something that
would, would take away the five.
Um, and critical hits, same sort of thing.
I tend to use those more because
it's such a powerful hit.
I feel that they balance themselves
pretty well, because if you can do a
critical hit, then the monsters can too.
And that's usually why I didn't do it
(28:56):
because if they can have a critical
failure, the monsters can too.
And I don't want my monsters
attacking each other.
I want them to continue to
attack the, um, the party.
Ah, but that really is kind of boiling
down what the critical fail was that
you had a certain percentage of not
only did you not succeed, but something
even worse has happened to you.
And there's also the, um, the
straw dummy test, which is also
(29:19):
again for the critical hit.
Like if you've got someone just attacking
something that can't fight back, what are
the chances of you rolling so poorly that
you actually injure yourself with, uh, a
creature that's not attacking you at all?
Lucas (29:33):
yeah.
So eventually if you are rolling
enough dice, and if those dice can
critically fail you, there's a non-zero
chance and a gradually escalating
chance that a straw dummy itself is
going to cause you grievous bodily
harm through no fault of its own.
Jeremy Vine (29:48):
I do love these ideas as
myths in game where you might've had
stories about someone who's just so
bad at being a warrior so bad at being
a God that the straw dummy defeated
them because they just went at it and
they just roll that poli that yeah,
the, the dummy has actually caused
multiple wounds to them, um, over there
(30:12):
that little training session, but it
doesn't actually happen to characters.
I feel because these are the thought
experiments of, if we extend the dice
over a certain period, it is theoretically
possible that these things could occur.
In practice, they are
very unlikely to occur.
(30:33):
I mean, again, I do not,
I probability very well.
I'm not a game designer, but I
feel it is a thought experiment.
That's useful when you are looking
at something like a critical failure
table or a critical hit table for,
for that matter, because that is
kind of just the same thing, but
reversed, but it's a lot more danger.
I feel a critical hits tables,
a lot more celebratory.
(30:53):
The people are a lot more
interested in, in seeing a critical
hit than a critical failure.
Lucas (30:58):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If this episode has entertained
or enlightened you in any way,
please share it with the people
who play D and D with you.
Your recommendation will go a
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And it's a real gift to me
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You could also leave me a like, or a
five star review on Spotify, iTunes,
(31:19):
or your podcast player of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really does
help new listeners discover the show.
If you really like what I'm doing,
you can support me through The Book of
Extinction, a project I'm creating with
Mage Hand Press that enables D and D
players to make a real difference in the
climate crisis and rapidly accelerating
mass extinction by telling the stories
(31:40):
of the animals that we have already lost.
There are already five episodes
of Making a Monster about
the creatures in that book.
So set this podcast feed to newest
first and take a journey with me into
a world wilder and more fascinating
than you probably thought it could be.
Special thanks to my collaborators
on these exploit monsters episodes:
Jeremy Vine (32:00):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
You can find me on social media on
Twitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,
or you can listen to my podcasts
Tell Me About Your D&D Character,
which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV
Jarrod Jahoda (32:15):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
I'm one half of the creative team.
Matt is the other half, or you can
catch Matt and I on Nuuli Forged,
which is our Twitch stream D&D game.
It's a homebrew game set in a
post-apocalyptic magical world.
(32:36):
And, uh, you can follow us on
Instagram, Twitter at mid LVL
adventure to keep updated.
And we've recently started releasing
our podcast episodes on YouTube as well.
Danilo Vujevic (32:47):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
where we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means in
the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
that has been going on now for almost 65
episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops
(33:09):
everything from your esoteric, left-field,
weird things that you would never
attribute to D&D all the way to encounters
and experience, and much more obvious
topics, including soft skills, such as
friendship and social and meta things such
(33:30):
as podcasts, which was a weird itself.
Naval Naval gazing.
One to record.
Rebecca Gray (33:36):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (33:38):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (33:39):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
It's a very different kind of podcast.
We're a little bit scripted, a little
bit improv and a whole lot of fun.
So we hope that you'll stop in
and check us out and find out what
it's like when D&D meets radio.
wish Lucas had never
shared this with me because now
I can't be surprised with it.
And it's so sad.
Jarrod Jahoda (00:16):
I believe in the
poetry of a nat one, just as much as
I believe in the artistry of a Nat 20.
Rebecca Gray (00:22):
you guys are doing
specific monsters from older.
Steve Myers (00:25):
It's not
specific monsters cheats.
It is different cheeses,
Rebecca Gray (00:30):
Cheeses!
We're cheesing things I don't
know if that's what you call it.
Lucas (00:34):
uh it's going to be what I
call it now, because it's way better.
Because a lot of the ways in
which the game has created its own
lore, its own D&D cryptids started
back in third edition and 3.5.
and Fifth edition stands at the top of
this teetering tower of nonsense that is
(00:55):
50 years old and has given rise to a huge
variety of things that are just in the
game now and have names and wander about
the world of D&D in the same way that
wandering monsters roam around dungeons.
So
Rebecca Gray (01:11):
peasant rail gun,
Danilo Vujevic (01:12):
something
like the quantum ogre,
Jeremy Vine (01:13):
I loathe
the arrow of destruction,
Lucas (01:15):
the False Hydra,
Jarrod Jahoda (01:17):
a wireless troll,
Steve Myers (01:18):
Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (01:26):
Welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where we look
at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons
and other tabletop RPGs and discover
how they work, why they work and
what they mean for these episodes.
I've assembled a crack team of
D and D podcasters from all over
the world to track down monsters,
born of the system itself.
Jeremy Vine (01:46):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
Jarrod Jahoda (01:48):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Danilo Vujevic (01:55):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
Rebecca Gray (02:01):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (02:03):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (02:04):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Lucas (02:10):
So let's talk cheese!
uh,
This next monster isn't so much
an exploit as, as a homebrew, but
it's on the list because of how
resilient this idea has become.
Near as I can tell, this idea first
appeared, in September of 2014.
And somehow in that seven years, it
has accomplished, I think maybe the
(02:32):
same amount of mythologizing as some of
the things like the peasant rail gun.
this is the false Hydra.
This is one of those instances in
which I w kind of wish I was making
a video podcast, because when I
say that everyone's face changes
and it's never been the same twice.
If you've heard of this, where was
(02:53):
the first time you heard about it?
Danilo Vujevic (02:55):
This is again
lucky for you because this
is a very pertinent in that.
Um, I, someone who I used to DM
for a little, little short campaign
that a while ago, they, recently,
Hey, can I get your advice?
I'm thinking of running this and it
happened to be a false hydra and, and
we're talking like three months ago.
They messaged me this.
(03:16):
I saw the mentioned false hydra and
immediately I thought, oh, cool.
Is that going to be like a
water dwelling snake thing, but
maybe it only has like two heads,
which is why it's a false hydra.
I could not have been more
incredibly wrong in that
interpretation of that definition.
Lucas (03:34):
And I think,
Steve Myers (03:34):
looks awful.
It looks so awful.
Lucas (03:37):
yeah, Arnold has chosen
a variety of horrifying images
from around the internet.
Some of them, I think are
involved in an old, creepy pasta
about a Zelda game cartridge.
Um,
Rebecca Gray (03:50):
no, that is a monster
from Legend of Zelda (03:51):
Ocarina of Time.
Lucas (03:53):
oh, okay.
Rebecca Gray (03:54):
You fight it twice, once it
as an adult, once as a kid, I think, but
Steve Myers (03:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, man, I, I played Ocarina of Time
and I don't remember it's in the ballroom.
Rebecca Gray (04:05):
It's a creature.
You fight in the bottom
of the, well, I'm sorry.
I know that game backwards and forwards.
Jeremy Vine (04:10):
I've encountered the blog.
Well, actually a separate blog post
before about the idea of a false hydra,
because my interpretation of the false
hydra is that it kind of takes, your
recollection of the hydra itself, that
when you are devoured by this hydra,
your, the memory of you is erased
from reality, that to everyone who
(04:32):
knew you, you just no longer exist.
Danilo Vujevic (04:33):
And so I read it
all and so clearly you were very on
the money because it is still very
much in vogue and people are still
very much trying to incorporate it.
Broadly it is this creature that
calls upon a number of tropes that
we've seen in many popular culture.
I think that The Silence in Doctor
Who being a very obvious correlation
where it fandangles with people's
(04:56):
memory, essentially, Um, perception
of reality so that it is this all
pervasive, clearly not benign creature.
This is not benign force that manipulates
people's memories and perception of
reality so that they never notice it.
They never see it's there, or
the effects that it has on their
world, such as killing people.
(05:17):
They will cease to remember those
people and go on as, as normal as to
secure its safety and, and to growth.
Steve Myers (05:26):
The false hydra always
felt like the silence from Doctor
Who is that was what the premise was.
It's something you look and
you acknowledge is there, and
then you can roll to forget it.
And that is absolutely horrifying
that you could know this thing
is there outside of character and
be able to do nothing with that.
Jarrod Jahoda (05:47):
Yeah, it was a
mental mind shenanigan crazy thing.
Like it was like, whoa,
this is blowing your mind.
And I don't know which came first chicken
or the egg, because I just don't know.
Lucas (06:01):
Uh, first appearance,
2011 (06:03):
The Impossible Astronaut.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:06):
ah, so maybe then it
was inspired by, or maybe they just
came up with the idea separately, but
Lucas (06:11):
Yeah.
Sort of case of convergent evolution.
Jarrod Jahoda (06:14):
which it's just a great
idea, having this monster that is
really more about the psychological
terror of it than anything else.
It's subconscious fear.
It is that like it's almost horror esque
really as opposed to like a fantasy.
Steve Myers (06:34):
And it just slowly
takes over a town by just
removing people one by one by one.
And it's, is such a horrifying idea.
And it's not often that you get to
see "DM cheese" where they get to
fudge the rules and make things a
little more exciting and fun for them.
And it's disturbing and upsetting.
(06:54):
And I, I can't get enough of it.
I cannot get enough of it.
I just want to play, I mean, I
don't want to play in a game with
it because if I play in a game
with it now, I'll know what's there
and it takes away all the fun.
wish Lucas had never shared this with me
because now I can't be surprised with it.
And it's so sad.
Lucas (07:12):
I've heard that this
is one of those things that is
extremely difficult to pull off.
If you had to run a false hydra,
do you think you'd try and do it?
And if so, how would you set this up?
Jarrod Jahoda (07:24):
Well, if any of
my players are listening, no, I
would never try to do that ever.
But if I was going to try to
do it, they wouldn't know.
Uh, no, I, I would probably take,
I probably wouldn't do the whole,
like it rose out of the ground
through grubs and whatever.
I would probably be a
little more wacky with it.
(07:45):
Cause I kinda like that still dangerous
and crazy, but a little more wacky.
So I would have, I think, a, a, a town
where people are happy all the time.
There's no like existential dread and
there's always new housing opening up.
Um, so they're always like, Hey, we just
have this new house that just opened up
(08:06):
over here, like you should check that out.
And so they constantly are
getting new people in the
town because it's a paradise.
Nobody ever has any problems,
which automatically in my
book makes it suspicious
Lucas (08:17):
Oh, yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda (08:20):
there's no problems
because any like bandits or anything
that come along immediately succumb to
the hydra, because the hydra keeps like
a core number of town, people around
to lure in new people at all times.
So I would put it more in like a
opportunistic parasite, as opposed to just
like, oh, I'm going to eat everything.
(08:41):
Um, because like it is doing some
good it's taking out baddies and
protecting these core people,
but everyone else is just food.
Lucas (08:51):
Wow.
Yeah.
I love that.
Cause that's, it's not, then it's not
quite cut and dried as a, it's only a
Jarrod Jahoda (08:58):
I love moral
ambiguity in my games.
I'm all about it.
I always give my bad guy a good
reason for being a bad guy.
Jeremy Vine (09:07):
So I've never
encountered this before.
I feel that this is something that
is incredibly difficult to achieve
as a dungeon master, to have that
level of knowledge of like that
level of planning as well of, yes,
these people no longer exist and If
a character is taken by, it's like,
well, how do you, how do you do that?
(09:29):
It's that, complete buy-in of
the world that is very difficult
to achieve in my opinion.
I love the idea around it now.
I'm not sure if this is the blog post
that you sent, the way I encountered
it was a, somebody was saying that they
decided to use the false hydra in a game.
And that they just had the party sitting
(09:50):
around and notice some bloodstains and
there's like, that's weird, but all right.
And eventually they found the
false hydra and they killed them.
And, um, they went back to town and
were given a portrait that had been
painted by, um, like an actual portrait.
And it actually had a character, a
member of the party who they'd never met.
(10:14):
And the idea was that at some point,
this character had gone on watch
and being, and by the hydra and the
fact that the character had never
had a play I'd never existed at all.
They just completely sign it
in that you've lost these party
member that you now never remember.
Lucas (10:32):
That's amazing.
Jeremy Vine (10:34):
that's, that's how
I encountered the false Hydra.
I just thought this is genius.
If you can pull that off, your
players will remember that forever.
Absolutely.
And the certainly the blog
post I've, um, that I've seen
overall is like this horror.
(10:55):
It's designing a horror creature.
Um, that idea that once it
kills you, no one remembers you.
It's like, that's something that just
takes a little bit of a trigger in my mind
has got no, I didn't like that at all.
That's a squeak that, that terrifies me.
Lucas (11:08):
Do you think you could pull it off?
Like running a false
hydra for your players?
Danilo Vujevic (11:15):
I guess
the different, okay.
The definition of whether I could pull it
off or not, I would leave to my players.
Lucas (11:24):
enough.
Danilo Vujevic (11:25):
um, I would say, I would
like to think so if, only for the fact
of I would overplan and make sure and
spend all way too long on things that
won't get used or won't even get to see
the light of day so that it would just
be in a complete fail, safe system,
(11:46):
ecology, where they do, they'd always be
something exciting to do, but there's the
fact of the matter is basically no one,
including myself, has that freedom has
that length of time available to them to
really make it like maybe I'm completely
a naysayer and pessimistic is clearly
it's, it's popular and people do it.
Lucas (12:07):
Well, I think you're right in
that it works a lot better on paper
than it does in practice because
of the people I've asked about this
most have not been confident that,
uh, they would want to make the
attempt or that they could provide a
satisfying experience if they did, or
(12:28):
that it would be worth it in the end,
because there's so much going on here.
It's a loaded question,
"could you do this?"
which is kind of why I ask it.
Danilo Vujevic (12:40):
Yeah, I mean,
I would agree with them.
I hate being like, "with experience"
or "with, with knowledge," but I
can't, I've done this podcast for
however many years and not picked up.
Some peripheral peripheral experience.
So absolutely this and many
other things, I'm sure.
Go seem rad on a first glance to,
(13:04):
to maybe a less experienced DM.
Now but I'm just perhaps more
cognizant of various pitfalls
having fallen in then myself.
So yeah, it's less experienced DM
seeing something like the false hydra
and that's, oh, that'll be really cool.
That'd be really atmospheric.
And I can have the bomb and have
a picture of his family behind
(13:25):
the bar, but he doesn't know
who the woman or the child are.
He just thinks it's a selfie.
And then that the players asked
the question, like what happened
to the woman and the child and
the photo when he goes around the
woman and the child in the photo.
That'd be fun and exciting.
Yeah, sure.
That is.
But then, but then what,
you know, w w how, how do we
really get something out of.
(13:47):
And, and you kind of do that.
As I said, a couple of times before the
players go, everyone here is crazy and
that's, that's it, that's the story.
And we move on how this weird town
full of the people who don't know,
who can't understand what a photo is.
And then everybody gets frustrated,
which is the worst case.
That's like, that's the fail state.
(14:08):
The fail state is everybody
including the DM is just like,
we don't know what's going on.
I don't know how to make other
people know what's going on there.
Lucas (14:17):
yeah.
Yeah, because running a mystery in
D&D is very difficult, running a
mystery where the solution to the
mystery is actively erasing the clues.
Uh, Also really difficult.
Danilo Vujevic (14:33):
Yep.
Lucas (14:34):
There's miles of depth on this
Danilo Vujevic (14:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Um, you, you just you'd need to be.
novelist to, to, to like in a sense,
because it has to be a lot of, it has
to be scripted to a certain extent.
You're, you're almost pushing
that point of more scripted
gameplay rather than freeform.
Steve Myers (14:57):
I like the idea behind it and
it would be really fun to do a one-shot
involving it, but I can't imagine.
Th just the mental logistics
that go into thinking like, wow,
okay, now there's a monster.
You have to fight that you don't know.
Is there, what do you do?
What, what do you even
do in that scenario?
Rebecca Gray (15:19):
Yeah.
Cause, cause you're asking for
a lot from your players, not
to metagame if you're using it.
Steve Myers (15:25):
Oh no.
I mean metagame at that point in
time please, because the only way
you're going to get out of that
is by thinking outside of the box.
Cause everything's straightforward.
You would have assumed has
been tried time And time again.
You have to have to
come up with something.
I mean, oh God, no, no.
And
Rebecca Gray (15:43):
I don't,
Steve Myers (15:44):
I don't like it.
I don't have a lot to say on it.
Lucas (16:43):
so much of what's happening
in the game is being influenced
by what's happening at the table.
And to that point, there's, there's some
of this cheese that's influenced by what's
happening within the game system itself.
Which leads me to Larry,
the Kung Fu Kraken.
Steve Myers (16:59):
Oh man.
Larry, the Kung Fu Kraken.
I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas (17:06):
Uh,
Steve Myers (17:07):
makes sense, but hate it.
I hate it so much.
Lucas (17:10):
yeah.
So this relies on a discussion of
fumble mechanics or, or critical fails.
Rebecca Gray (17:16):
so with five E I mean,
there's not a lot of credit fail rules.
A lot of that's going to be on the DM.
You critically fail and I
mean, you miss real bad.
There might be a few suggestions in the
DM's Guide, but for the most part nothing
really bad happens if you critically
fail on a hit or a skill check or
anything like that, but with Pathfinder
Steve Myers (17:38):
And 3.5.
Rebecca Gray (17:39):
In 3.5, there were
very hard rules as to what could
happen when you critically fail.
And so think I'm gonna just
come to the through line here.
I think that it, it goes back to the
adversarial aspects of 3.5 and Pathfinder
in particular because you want to be
able to punish your players occasionally
(18:00):
and you don't really get to do that.
And by having them roll a one, you're
saying, well, now you've messed up
and I get to do something to you.
Lucas (18:07):
Yeah.
Monster of the Week calls
it "taking a hard move."
Steve Myers (18:12):
Yeah.
I think that five E has made a good
decision getting away from that.
I think that you can fail and
still have bad things happen.
And I think taking a hard move is
a way that it can be done without
it being as punishing as it was.
even like the cards for Pathfinder,
they have the crit fail cards.
I don't know if those were
official or they were official.
(18:34):
Yeah.
uh,
Lucas (18:38):
what's on a crit fail card?
Steve Myers (18:39):
So we had the critical
success cards, which were always
like, oh, you're doing so good.
And then crit fails like, oh, okay.
You you've dropped her weapon
and you've cut off your toe.
And now you're going to have problems
with balance for the rest of the game.
Yeah.
Rebecca Gray (18:49):
Or you accidentally
kicked up some dust and you're
blinded for the next minute.
Some of them got like bad enough that
it was like you fall on your sword.
Steve Myers (18:57):
Yeah, so,
Rebecca Gray (18:58):
you are now dying.
Jeremy Vine (18:59):
And that's kind of
what the critical fail was that
sometimes when you roll the one,
you would have a separate table.
Something bad even was,
has happened to you.
And you'd have to roll on that.
And it might be you just drop your weapon.
It might be that you attack
your ally next to you.
Instead, it might be
that you stab yourself.
It might, there's a whole range
of things that would could occur.
Steve Myers (19:20):
Back in the day.
Like one, you rolled a one.
And so for, for twenties,
you, you had to roll a D 20.
And if you got a 20, you had to roll
a confirm and you had to beat the AC.
Now, if you rolled a second 20,
so two twenties in a row we would
go into like, oh man, you're doing
exceedingly well, try it again.
You get three twenties in a
row, you insta-kill something.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:40):
Once I actually
got three twenties in a row,
so I insta-killed something.
Lucas (19:42):
Oh my gosh.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:44):
was, I don't even know
what the odds were, but it was crazy.
One in like 1600 chance I
had, something like that.
Lucas (19:51):
we can live in
that moment if you want.
You can tell me that story.
Jarrod Jahoda (19:54):
I mean, it was crazy.
I was playing a ranger and I was
having a hard go at it because
it was this monster creature.
And I didn't ha I think it was a plant
and I didn't have any magical weapons.
And it was like resistant
to all my attacks.
But then I just happened to roll three 20.
I rolled the 20 and he was
like, okay, confirm it.
And I was like, okay.
I, I got the crit and I
(20:15):
was like, just go for it.
And I roll the third 20, couldn't
believe it, and somehow with my non
magical attacks, I killed a thing that
was resistant to non-magical damage
because I wrote three twenties in a row.
The odds were insane.
Somehow I did it.
And after the game he realized that
(20:35):
well, plant creatures are actually
immune to critical hits, but I
was like, don't rob this from me!
Lucas (20:40):
This happened!
Man, three and a half was wild.
Jarrod Jahoda (20:45):
yeah.
Lucas (20:45):
what was even going on back then?
Jarrod Jahoda (20:48):
Yeah.
I didn't have a single
character that lasted more
than like five sessions in 3.5.
Lucas (20:54):
Wow.
I've had one character last three years.
Jarrod Jahoda (20:59):
I am amazed
and awed by your skill.
Lucas (21:03):
It has nothing to do with it.
I think it's more five E's fault, this
actually kind of brings me back around.
Cause one of the things that people have
told me about older editions is that there
was a much more adversarial relationship
between the DM and the players.
Like you, like this world is going to kill
you and I'm the guy who's going to do it.
And it's your job to
figure out how to survive.
Jarrod Jahoda (21:25):
Yes.
Very much.
So those first, I mean, those
first sessions until that character
died and my three edition game,
it was always like, everything
was trying to kill our characters.
It wasn't about like building
up as heroic adventure journey.
It was about how can I kill you?
Lucas (21:39):
Hm.
Jarrod Jahoda (21:41):
My 3.5 adventures were
similar, but less so that I think that's
just because the DM was a nicer human.
And certainly in fourth edition when
I started DM-ing and I was really
bad at it, I took that mindset
because that's the only one I knew.
And then I was talking to him and I was
like, I'm not having this fun this way.
(22:01):
I'm just going to make it be
more of like, I'm a neutral party
and you'll have to fight things.
And if you die, you die and I'm
not going to get involved in it.
Lucas (22:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was but let me circle back to
critical success or critical fails.
What is the thought experiment
of the Kung Fu Kraken?
Jarrod Jahoda (22:20):
So it's this idea that a
kraken who is trained in martial arts can
attack essentially 18 times on a term.
Right.
means
Lucas (22:33):
We're counting what eight we're
counting eight limbs and then a few extra.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:37):
yeah, so like it's
like eight limbs and multi attack.
So that's two attacks per limb.
And I think there's a, I forget
what they were called, but they were
equivalent of bonus action "flurry
of blows" attack kind of deal.
Jeremy Vine (22:51):
There's a
whole range of things.
It could have tentacles, it could have
massive teeth, it could have pseudopods,
but he gets a lot of attacks is the point.
Jarrod Jahoda (22:59):
Yeah, a
lot of attacks in a turn.
And statistically, if you roll a D
20 that many times, there's a certain
number of times that's going to come up
as a one, which is a critical failure.
Your increased likelihood therefore means
that you are weaker at fighting and more
likely to succumb to a failure table
(23:20):
and kill yourself, because that was one
of the options on these failure tables.
Like I have seen failure tables
that are like, you decapitate
yourself, you chop off your arm.
And I'm like, whoa, dude, I don't
know how that's possible, but so
Euro, but that being said, I do
support the idea of crit fails.
(23:42):
Like I like that idea, uh, you
know, in 3.5, like critical
failures were definitely a thing.
And so were critical successes and five
E they've kind of dropped the critical
fail part and just kept the success part.
But I still use critical fail, but I'm
a lot nicer with my critical fails.
(24:05):
And that essentially what
I do is I do it by level.
If you are a levels, one
through five, someone is going
to take one D four damage.
Lucas (24:12):
Okay.
Yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda (24:13):
So enough to kind of be
annoying, but generally not enough to kill
you unless you're a wizard and enrolled a
two on your Um, and then it increases so
like six through 10 as a D six, a D eight
for 11 through 15 and 16 through twenties,
uh, D 10, but it's just one die of damage.
(24:33):
But what I add to it is
Lucas (24:36):
Ah,
Jarrod Jahoda (24:37):
a condition effect.
like you could overextend and maybe
you overextend by your opponent's
sword and you get cut for two points
of damage, but then you fall prone
Lucas (24:51):
Yeah, bad news.
Jarrod Jahoda (24:52):
and like
that ends your turn.
Or, you know, if there's like three
potential people who could suffer,
like if you're an archer and you
roll it out, could fling back on you.
It could hit the fighter next
to the enemy, or it could hit
the road next to the enemy.
So all three of the players rolled a
D 20 and it's a straight luck roll,
(25:12):
whoever gets the lowest, gets the ping.
And then, you know, that can be like,
Hey, watch where you're shooting.
And fun.
So I believe in the poetry of a
nat one, just as much as I believe
in the artistry of a Nat 20,
but I don't want to be a Dick about it.
(25:33):
I just want to be annoying about it.
Um, which has a long round of saying,
I like the idea of these failure
tables, but I think in previous
editions they were too aggressive.
Lucas (25:49):
do you critical
fail on skill checks?
Danilo Vujevic (25:51):
um, no,
so not in, not okay.
Let me, let me define that
for, you know, if they wrote a
one, but if they still failed.
Badly which could be on a two or
it could just be the DC was so high
that the chances of failure high
and failing catastrophically as
(26:12):
high, you know, it's gonna happen.
And it's probably never
as hard or as harsh.
There's no punitive, the most punishment
it will get is you're trying to run
leap or dive across a skill check.
For example, a physical activity
you full prone is probably as hard.
You know, you fall on your ass
(26:32):
because it's kind of half role-play
ha look at the buffoon, but also half.
Yes, you're going to have
to spend five for a moment.
If we're not in combat,
that's not really an issue.
So no one really minds.
Um, and then for social encounters,
It's I always tend to run, um, you
(26:52):
know, nothing's binary in my game.
So a critical fail quote, unquote,
isn't going to just immediately turn
anyone to be like, oh, now I want to
punch you in the face because humans
don't really operate like that.
It takes quite a lot for, to get me
to want to punch somebody in the face.
Like we're talking like quite egregious
things here, not just somebody
(27:13):
asking for more money off an item
and then doing it in an awkward way.
Doesn't immediately make me
hate that person in this.
And that's how I try and run my MPCs.
So it, you know, a critical fail
would just be like, do you know what?
Just leave my store please.
Cause you're wasting my time and not
whoops, you throw the coin because
you fell over and you throw it in
(27:34):
the merchants face and now the guards
want you is not to me is not, is
just, doesn't really make sense.
Lucas (27:42):
You are
Danilo Vujevic (27:42):
I very much
subscribe to that train of thought.
That's like when people say.
They try and persuade the king, give
me a crown so I can be king and you can
make them roll, uh, because although it's
impossible and you shouldn't really get
players to roll for things are impossible.
The outcome is very variable.
(28:05):
So a 20 plus would be like, ha, you
can be my court justice because what
a funny joke you just said, and I'm
not going to throw you in prison.
Whereas, you know, D you
don't hit DC five, which
typically one tends to not hit.
Uh, then he's like, you've insulted me
and you're going in prison for the night.
(28:27):
Uh, so that, that sliding
scale, which again, is kind of
in independent of a one or not
Jeremy Vine (28:36):
I never really used them.
I felt that that was something that
would, would take away the five.
Um, and critical hits, same sort of thing.
I tend to use those more because
it's such a powerful hit.
I feel that they balance themselves
pretty well, because if you can do a
critical hit, then the monsters can too.
And that's usually why I didn't do it
(28:56):
because if they can have a critical
failure, the monsters can too.
And I don't want my monsters
attacking each other.
I want them to continue to
attack the, um, the party.
Ah, but that really is kind of boiling
down what the critical fail was that
you had a certain percentage of not
only did you not succeed, but something
even worse has happened to you.
And there's also the, um, the
straw dummy test, which is also
(29:19):
again for the critical hit.
Like if you've got someone just attacking
something that can't fight back, what are
the chances of you rolling so poorly that
you actually injure yourself with, uh, a
creature that's not attacking you at all?
Lucas (29:33):
yeah.
So eventually if you are rolling
enough dice, and if those dice can
critically fail you, there's a non-zero
chance and a gradually escalating
chance that a straw dummy itself is
going to cause you grievous bodily
harm through no fault of its own.
Jeremy Vine (29:48):
I do love these ideas as
myths in game where you might've had
stories about someone who's just so
bad at being a warrior so bad at being
a God that the straw dummy defeated
them because they just went at it and
they just roll that poli that yeah,
the, the dummy has actually caused
multiple wounds to them, um, over there
(30:12):
that little training session, but it
doesn't actually happen to characters.
I feel because these are the thought
experiments of, if we extend the dice
over a certain period, it is theoretically
possible that these things could occur.
In practice, they are
very unlikely to occur.
(30:33):
I mean, again, I do not,
I probability very well.
I'm not a game designer, but I
feel it is a thought experiment.
That's useful when you are looking
at something like a critical failure
table or a critical hit table for,
for that matter, because that is
kind of just the same thing, but
reversed, but it's a lot more danger.
I feel a critical hits tables,
a lot more celebratory.
(30:53):
The people are a lot more
interested in, in seeing a critical
hit than a critical failure.
Lucas (30:58):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If this episode has entertained
or enlightened you in any way,
please share it with the people
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Your recommendation will go a
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And it's a real gift to me
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You could also leave me a like, or a
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(31:19):
or your podcast player of choice.
It's a small thing, but it really does
help new listeners discover the show.
If you really like what I'm doing,
you can support me through The Book of
Extinction, a project I'm creating with
Mage Hand Press that enables D and D
players to make a real difference in the
climate crisis and rapidly accelerating
mass extinction by telling the stories
(31:40):
of the animals that we have already lost.
There are already five episodes
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So set this podcast feed to newest
first and take a journey with me into
a world wilder and more fascinating
than you probably thought it could be.
Special thanks to my collaborators
on these exploit monsters episodes:
Jeremy Vine (32:00):
I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm
a professional dungeon master.
You can find me on social media on
Twitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,
or you can listen to my podcasts
Tell Me About Your D&D Character,
which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV
Jarrod Jahoda (32:15):
My name is Jarrod Jahoda,
and you can find me on any podcast
platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
I'm one half of the creative team.
Matt is the other half, or you can
catch Matt and I on Nuuli Forged,
which is our Twitch stream D&D game.
It's a homebrew game set in a
post-apocalyptic magical world.
(32:36):
And, uh, you can follow us on
Instagram, Twitter at mid LVL
adventure to keep updated.
And we've recently started releasing
our podcast episodes on YouTube as well.
Danilo Vujevic (32:47):
I'm Danilo, the
host/producer/editor of Thinking
Critically, a D&D discussion podcast
where we take a single word or
topic and discuss what it means in
the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
that has been going on now for almost 65
episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops
(33:09):
everything from your esoteric, left-field,
weird things that you would never
attribute to D&D all the way to encounters
and experience, and much more obvious
topics, including soft skills, such as
friendship and social and meta things such
(33:30):
as podcasts, which was a weird itself.
Naval Naval gazing.
One to record.
Rebecca Gray (33:36):
Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers (33:38):
and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray (33:39):
And we are from A
House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
It's a very different kind of podcast.
We're a little bit scripted, a little
bit improv and a whole lot of fun.
So we hope that you'll stop in
and check us out and find out what
it's like when D&D meets radio.
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