July 25, 2022 • 26 mins
The mukad are insect-like aberrations following the orders of a slumbering god of destruction as they lurk in the walls.
Read the transcript and get more from the show:
https://scintilla.studio/monster-mukad-grim-hollow-ghostfire-games/
Get stat blocks, bonus content, and other monstrous perks: www.patreon.com/scintillastudio
Join the conversation: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter
Meet my guests:
Joe Raso: https://twitter.com/_joe_raso
Grim Hollow by Ghostfire Games: https://ghostfiregaming.com/grim-hollow/
Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe Raso (00:01):
As the adventurers walk
down the dark stairwell they notice
scrabbling sounds coming from perhaps
within the walls themselves and
in the darkness, there's movement
stirring in the bottom of the steps.
You see forms slowly coming into focus,
which are small worm like creatures and,
(00:23):
for many in, your group, there's probably
a bit of a revulsion cuz it reminds you
of centipedes that writhe together and
start flowing up the steps towards you.
Lucas (00:35):
Welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where game
designers show us their favorite
monster and we discover how it works,
why it works, and what it means.
I'm Lucas Zellers.
Monsters are often
simply a matter of scale.
Many of nature's most perfect
predators are simply too small to
be any threat to humans, and some of
(00:56):
history's most famous monsters are
those too big for what we perceive
as their place in the natural order.
Designer Joe Raso showed his keen eye for
how this works in the context of D&D with
his aberrant insect harbinger, the mukad.
So Joe, your title has changed a
couple of times since I've known you.
Joe Raso (01:17):
My official title right now is
writing coordinator for Ghostfire Games.
That was effective as of.
Wow end of March this year.
Prior to that, I started doing freelance
writing for a bunch of RPG folks.
I guess I went full time
in July of that last year.
(01:38):
Before that I was just doing my
own work on DMS Guild, in addition
to my day job, so to speak.
But I'm, I'm fully vested in the
whole RPG space at this point.
Lucas (01:50):
I think you and I we're sort
of in each other's orbit circa 2019.
And I, I think back in December, we
had talked about getting you on the
podcast for the Dunwood project.
Dunwood is a forest in D&D's Forgotten
Realms setting that feels a lot like
Tolkien's Mirkwood or the balanced
growth and decay of the green-black
(02:10):
Witherbloom College of magic in Magic
the Gathering's Strixhaven University.
In real-world terms, this would be
an old-growth forest, a term coined
in the 1940s to describe the later
stages of stand development with truly
massive trees, multiple canopy layers
blocking the sun, and a forest floor
covered in large dead woody material.
(02:33):
These are forests that feel more like
oceans, and the oldest of them sheltered
the last vestiges of Ice Age megafauna
like bush-antlered deer and dire wolves.
In lore, Dunwood is a part of
a region called the Great Dale.
Joe Raso (02:48):
The first big effort that I did
was, um, The Great Dale Campaign Guide.
It's a, a Forgotten Realms source book.
It was sort of paying homage to
a third edition production, um,
that I really loved called, um,
Why the heck, I can't remember the
(03:08):
name of the production right now.
Oh, the, the Unapproachable East.
I got a suggestion to reach out to
some other folks and me building a
little source guide, um, expansion to
bring things up to fifth edition, over
period of two or three weeks exploded.
12 authors or 10 authors.
(03:29):
I can't remember the number I had,
um, and a a hundred plus source book
that, that I ended up producing.
Um, my first real effort
that big, it was it.
I really shouldn't have done it,
cuz it was, it was way too way
too large, but it was a fantastic.
Learning experience for me.
(03:49):
So that was, that was the first big one.
Lucas (03:51):
Joe's work on Dunwood and
other projects over the past few years
led him to become a contributor for
the 5th edition setting Grim Hollow.
Joe Raso (03:58):
Grim Hollow is a grimdark
sort of horror based campaign
that Ghostfire games has produced.
And I felt astoundingly,
astoundingly, astoundingly, lucky.
Um, when Sean me Merwin asked if I'd
like to contribute a bunch of monsters
to the to this monster book that
(04:20):
they're creating for that setting,
Lucas (04:22):
Oh, so this is
in progress right now.
Joe Raso (04:24):
It it's in delivery actually.
Yeah, I, I did the actual
writing for this last.
Oh, what was it?
in the June, June, July timeframe
is when I, when I was working on,
on these Grim Hollow creatures.
And I think the, the products are
actually showing up in people's
doorsteps in the last month or so.
(04:45):
So I haven't got my hard copy yet, but
I've, I've, I've seen the seen the,
the PDF, which is pretty fantastic.
Lucas (04:53):
You've dropped a buzzword and
I'm all about breaking those apart
and figuring out what that means.
What does grimdark mean to you,
especially in the context of what
Grim Hollow is trying to do and be?
Joe Raso (05:03):
For me, grimdark means stories
that fear and dread are a key component
and the survival of the heroes is not
necessarily guaranteed as opposed to
uh, heroic fantasy where, um, you're,
(05:24):
you're dealing with giant threats and
ultimately you expect the heroes to,
to survive in the end victoriously.
Um, in, in a grimdark setting.
I, I don't think that's the assumption.
I, I think it's, we hope that
they'll get through whatever terrible
onslaught that they're going through.
Um, but it's, it's perilous might be the
good, the correct word to use for that.
(05:46):
Um, overwhelming.
Bad stuff is, is maybe
the, the simpler way.
Lucas (05:54):
Yeah, What I've heard from people
who have played older editions is that
they have somewhat of a more adversarial
relationship between player and DM and
mechanics and character than fifth edition
does such that fifth edition is kind
of, kinder to, to player characters.
It leans more into the heroic
fantasy element of this.
Does that jive with your experience?
(06:16):
And do you think Grim Hollow
might be a return to that sort
of attitude from older editions?
Joe Raso (06:21):
Possibly that that
might be a nice way to look at it.
I, I, I think the earlier editions, it
was the, the game was still being figured
out by everybody, in my opinion, um, where
you, it was the first time you, you had
these role playing games available to the
(06:41):
public, to purchase and, and play with.
And it was such a different or
change to what, um, everybody
had experienced up to that point.
I mean, I I'd played risk.
I'd played all the typical board games.
So to actually play a game that
didn't have a board on it, um, was
a bit of a leap for, for most folks.
And I think whenever you go into
(07:01):
something new, you, you hold onto
pieces of things that you understand.
And in all those board games, it's
usually a person versus a person.
So I could see the default assumption
being the, the dungeon master against
the players as here's your challenge.
I'm trying to defeat you
and the, the players.
Okay.
We're gonna try to, to overcome that.
So I, I can see how a grimdark theme
(07:24):
might echo some of that same setup.
Um, and yeah, I agree in, in the.
The more modern game of fifth edition,
the storytelling bit is much, um,
greater piece of it where, you're
looking to see how can I get my group
to play a fun and exciting story and
(07:45):
get them through it and engaged There's
almost always combat involved depending
on your group, obviously, but, um,
it's, that shared group experience.
Whereas in the earlier
days, I, I saw it as, yeah.
We're gonna try to get through this
thing and hopefully the DM won't kill us.
Um,
Lucas (08:04):
When we're talking
about Grim Hollow is there kind
of a hook for this setting?
Is there a thing that is peculiar
to the way that this works?
A thing that makes Grim Hollow what it is?
Joe Raso (08:15):
It's very much a dark setting
the gods have somewhat disappeared
because of a terrible that's gone on.
So there's, their surrogates have kind
of tried to pick up the mantle, but, um,
overall the, the world itself is in a, a
terrible state where I think fear and just
(08:37):
survival are a key aspect of this setting.
They've got a lot of different uh,
regions that explore certain areas.
Like there's a, a vampire controlled
area and sort of, rougher savage northern
Viking ish type region along with others.
But in general, the, the world itself
is, is a, a dreadful, scary place.
Lucas (08:59):
Let's talk about one of
the monsters that you've made.
Okay.
Pronounce this for me.
If you can, the mukad?
Joe Raso (09:05):
Yeah, in my head I pronounced
it mukad, but, um, mukad sounds fantastic.
Um,
Lucas (09:11):
Well, we're going with authorial
intent because you happen to be here.
So.
Joe Raso (09:14):
Well, clearly mukad, if
you don't get it, you're you're uh,
no I've, accepted that, um, all the
fantasy names and words that I've
read for the last 20 or 30 years.
The, the way it sounds in my
head is not the way most other
people would pronounce it.
Um, and so I'm quite happy for people to
come up with their own interpretations.
Lucas (09:37):
Do you know why that is?
Is that just a quirk of the genre or?
Joe Raso (09:40):
I, I, I don't know.
I, I don't know if it's the genre.
I don't know if it's my own background.
Um, I, I suspect it's probably
a combination of both.
Both my parents are Hungarian, actually.
You'd think that with the name
Raso is, is Italian, but, um,
my both folks are from there.
And so I, when I write often I,
I'm trying to come up with a, a, a
(10:03):
strange fantasy name and I'll, I'll
think of a, sort of a Hungarian term.
And I realize I can't actually translate
the sound properly because there's
certain vowels or consonants that don't
translate into English terribly well.
Um, so that's probably the same thing
what happened with, with this name?
Lucas (10:20):
That's fantastic.
Joe Raso (10:21):
Well, yeah, I mean, I've
seen many times people suggest
using Google translate to take
a, a word from one language and
shove it into the, to another.
I kind of use my vague understanding of
Hungarian to, oh, well, how Hungarian
language speakers that might read my work
and go, oh, that's, that's almost like,
would dad say, that thing and then I'll
(10:45):
sort of twist the, the letters around.
It's the cheat that I do when I'm writing.
When Sean originally asked me to
contribute monsters, one of the things
he was hoping for was more urban based
creatures that would threaten players.
So I was trying to think of creatures
that could sort of scrabble away in
(11:07):
the darkness of some large building,
like somehow how hidden in the walls.
There's a, there's these unnatural
beasts that are, are scheming in the
darkness and you better not go down
that dark place, cuz uh, they'll decide
to use you to, to some nefarious end.
Lucas (11:25):
I had in the house that I
grew up with an unfinished basement,
so like cold rock walls and.
I think you've nailed it.
Like that is the feeling that I get
here of there are grubs in the walls.
I mean like this is D and D
so these aren't just grubs.
Joe Raso (11:43):
Of course not.
Lucas (11:44):
Uh, what makes this different,
what is, what makes a mukad what it is?
Joe Raso (11:49):
One of the, I guess the concepts
for the, setting is the Ather kindred.
It's this very esque villain
godlike creature in the
background that slumbers away.
Um, and people dread the time
that it'll awaken and come back
and devastate the land again.
Um, so I figured, well just because
the master god or whatever, this
(12:12):
giant beast entity is, is slumbering
doesn't mean his foot soldiers
aren't doing something currently.
So I wanted to create a tier one challenge
that would start to pull in some of that.
Um, I guess C'thulhu-esque feel of
a strange unknown entity that could
potentially overwhelm or, or hurt
(12:34):
the, the populace at large is kind
of where I was coming from with it.
Lucas (12:38):
What makes them
good at filling that role?
Joe Raso (12:40):
I think a tunneling aspect
where they, they could hide through,
um, the walls and, and, um, be hidden in
sort of public, um, structures per se.
The attacks of these monsters are
sort of psychically charged where
they're they unleash bursts of energy
(13:01):
that, um, will stun or paralyze the
victims that they're going to use.
I think I had the larger one, be somewhat
more intelligent than you would expect for
a, from a sort of centipede-like creature.
Lucas (13:15):
yeah.
Intelligence 10,
Joe Raso (13:17):
So just an average.
Lucas (13:19):
yeah.
but still like, this is a
full on sapient being.
Joe Raso (13:24):
Yes.
Yeah.
And so that was the, the idea to have this
animalistic thing but smart enough that
it would be able to stare you in the eyes.
Lucas (13:34):
So let's talk about why we
had to make a suite of these things
because one of the fundamental truths
of Dungeons and Dragons and most role
playing games is that characters, i.e.
heroes, level up and monsters do not.
You just fight bigger and bigger monsters.
So this is, it reads as though
(13:56):
you have laid these out in
the order of their life cycle.
Is that fair to say?
Joe Raso (14:01):
Yeah, I think so.
For me the life cycle, wasn't,
they're either larva or they
transform into the whatever creature.
I, I was thinking of insects in
terms of, you know, how an ant colony
might be managing their brood.
They have eggs and then they become grubs.
And then the grubs eventually
transform into the more adult form.
When I was thinking about this,
(14:23):
I thought, okay, I'll have these,
these larval grubs then the
transformed versions of them with.
Depending on their specialization,
they would have different capabilities.
One might be stronger than another.
And, and then the big master progenitor
that's actually creating all the little,
little bugs, um, would be the, the,
(14:43):
the one that's toughest to take on.
I, I want to make sure that all of
the more sort of a, a tier one threat.
I almost feel like there's not enough
tier one threats that really can
scare, um, creatures or parties.
I wanted a whole suite.
So if a, a DM created a, a set of
adventures that they'd have enough
of a toolbox that they could create,
(15:04):
you know, a first encounter where, oh,
what the heck are these little things?
And then, then slowly the, the
adventures would follow the, the clues
and discover where the, the source
of the infestation actually was.
Lucas (15:16):
Yeah, this is a really classic
storytelling structure that you have
coded into this series of stat blocks
I mean, my favorite example is Bruce
Lee's I think it was Game of Death where
he started at the bottom of this tower
and he fought his way up to the top.
Only you've done it in reverse that
you start in the basement and then
(15:36):
you work your way lower and lower
to the terrible truth at the bottom.
Joe Raso (15:40):
It's such a common trope that
it's, if you can set the pieces up for DMS
to use, then it makes their job easier.
As a game designer, that's.
That's what I'm trying to do is give
all the tools to let someone at their
own table, make the game that they want.
Um, and so if you have a lot of
options, then you, there's a bunch
of different ways that you can, can
(16:00):
approach the game for your own table.
Cause every table's different,
somebody just wants to.
Go head first at the big bad guy.
And let's, don't worry about the
lead up, whereas others love that
slow uncovering of the truth and,
and figuring out what the mystery is.
So I wanted to make sure that you
could play it however you wished.
Lucas (16:18):
So anytime you say C'thulhu I have
to do another like buzzword thing wherein.
I call it the Lovecraft protocol
that even for his time, Lovecraft
was a problematic person.
And the genre that he created has far
exceeded his personal ideology in order to
create something that I think people are,
are using to find a lot of truth and make
(16:41):
some really interesting statements about
the way the world does and should work.
Was that part of your design
scheme or did that just sort of
happen when you created the mukad?
Does this tell you anything about the way
the world works when you work through it?
Joe Raso (16:55):
Um, C'thulhu has a whole
bunch of baggage left for, for sure.
But it's, it's a shorthand from a
design perspective in that, for me,
it's, it's this unknowable, evil
that can't be understood, even if you
try and if you try then it's likely
gonna cause you grief in the end.
(17:15):
And probably the demise of whoever is
trying to understand whatever that is.
Um, and I guess I wanted
these beasties to be similar.
They're this thing that you
as humans or humanoids can
never really fully understand.
You just know that they have
(17:37):
intentions that are associated with
this evil monstrosity that's caused
horror havoc in the world already.
So if you come across them, it's not
terribly ambiguous in terms of, is
this a humanoid with good intentions?
This is a big nasty that has no moral
compass that's gonna challenge whether
(17:59):
or not what you're doing is correct.
And I mean, that's the easy
way to how do I say this?
Um, I think there's a, a challenge, um,
particularly , in the modern game where
we're realizing that there's so many nasty
nasty is the wrong word, but ill-advised
(18:19):
approaches to how, um, creatures and
threats are presented in the game itself.
Um, and.
Sometimes you just want to play the game
and not have to be in a moral quandary
of am I really presenting this correctly?
And so I wanted to make sure that the
creature, the threat you presented
(18:39):
here is unquestionably something
that you could go up against.
Um, I don't know if the, I
answered your question there
Lucas (18:46):
No, absolutely.
For me, part of the magic of the
show is grappling with some of
those questions and figuring out,
like, is it a monster really?
And who's the, you know, it's,
it's a very old kind of subversion.
To the point that subverting it is.
You know, it's wrapping
around back on itself.
But I have had a lot of people
talk about, you know, the role
of catharsis in this game.
(19:06):
And just being able to say, very clearly
this is wrong and we're gonna stop it.
And the value that that has
for a player experience.
Assuming that the mukad have their way
and nothing stops them, what happens?
Joe Raso (19:22):
What happens?
Uh, They will do whatever mystical
scribblings in the darkness that these
unnatural beings do and help bring about
the, the Ather kindred again, which is
that slumbering unknowable evil beast that
had previously destroyed their gods and
(19:43):
created the terrible setting as it was.
So it's almost like, if you don't stop
these guys, then the already grimdark
setting might, might get worse.
Lucas (19:55):
Any of these attacks or features
or traits that you were particularly
proud of that resonated with people
who play tested this or, or other
designers that you worked on it with?
Joe Raso (20:05):
I like the thematic way that
I've woven some of the bits in here,
cuz I was trying to replicate, um, real
world creatures a little bit where you've
got insects that, oh, they've a spider
has trapped some insect for it to devour
it doesn't do it right away it sort of
(20:27):
paralyzes it and webs it in some coating
to, to ingest that it's leisure later on.
So it, I mean, I wanted that
sort of disgusting kinda, um,
feel for these creatures as well.
Like something where it's using you to,
um, propagate itself and it doesn't care
what's suffering or whatever is gonna
(20:48):
happen to the creature that it's captured.
So the progenitor has this etheric
incubation, um, ability where it
takes a paralyzed creature and wraps
it in a cocoon and basically injects
it with, little bug worms that
erupt somewhat later to, to devour
whoever the poor and fortunate, um,
(21:09):
beast is inside it kind of thing.
So I, I kind of like that, that it,
it, it replicates sort of things that
actually happen in the small insect
world that we have, but kind of blown
up to the, the heroic challenges
that, that players are gonna face.
Lucas (21:27):
It goes from a swarm of
tiny creatures to the mukad
progenitor, a large aberration,
lawful evil, interesting choice.
Alignment has become a tricky
subject since the so-called Tasha
apocalypse back in December of 21.
So, just out of curiosity, did you have
any conversations about alignment here
(21:48):
or, or any sort of deliberate way of what
how to represent these guys that way?
Joe Raso (21:55):
Um, no, I, I, I don't, I don't
remember having any discussions on the
design of related to the alignment bit.
For me it was, um, trying to
describe the creature, um,
in terms of how it functions.
And I, I saw it very much as a group
entity, it's this, this swarm of beasts.
(22:18):
So they're, they're following
the directions of the, the
big, bad progenitor guy.
They're not following individual
aims or, or doing some choice
that furthers their own direction.
It's the, whatever the big beastie
says is what the entire swarm
infestation is trying to accomplish.
So that's kind of the lawful bit for me
(22:39):
is that, that ordered decision making
the fact that there's someone at the top
describing what's going on and the, the
followers doing that to their ability.
The evil bit is that, Hey, they're,
they're not really caring what their
actions do to others around them.
There is no, um, sort of
(23:00):
moral compass for them.
They're just following this, this
evil plan to bring back their,
their a or kindred over overlord
or whatever the, the beast is.
Lucas (23:10):
Fantastic.
Yeah.
I'm always trying to get to the bottom
of how useful that alignment chart is.
And this is a good example.
Joe Raso (23:17):
Yeah, I think it's
just, it's, it's a tool.
Anything that you use in a D&D
game, I would hope DMs feel
comfortable on throwing out the
window if they don't like it.
so for me, it's, shorthand to say,
okay, how does this monster work
and what are the intentions of it.
And I think the recent, um, 5E sort of
(23:39):
style design choices that they've made
with newer things by saying usually, or
I can't remember the actual words that
they they have in terms of the, the
alignment, um, perspective, um, is, is
I think helpful for some people that.
May maybe are newer to the game.
I think if, if you've played the
game for a while you realize,
(23:59):
um, all rules are optional.
Um,
Lucas (24:03):
Yeah, you always
had that permission.
Joe Raso (24:06):
Yeah, but I, completely
understand why WotC's kind of going
down the, the path they are is it's.
How do you make the game as accessible
as you can to, to new folks coming in?
So you do that by giving him guidance
if they, they haven't had that before.
So I, have no issue with the way that
the, the alignment's being presented.
Lucas (24:24):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If you like what you've heard and you
want to support the show, please share
it with the people you play games with.
I'm approaching 50 episodes covering
monsters from all over the tabletop RPG
map, so there is something for everyone.
Your recommendation goes a long
way to letting people trust me with
their time and attention, and it's
a way to start great conversations
(24:46):
about why we play the games we do
and why they mean so much to us.
You can also join the show's email
subscriber list to get extra bonuses like
the stat blocks for the mukad family tree
and other monsters featured on the show.
It's a great addition to any campaign,
and a fascinating introduction
to the Ether Kindred and the
(25:06):
Grim Hollow campaign setting.
Just go to scintilla dot studio
slash monster or follow the link in
the description to get your copy of
these monsters from the Grim Hollow,
with art by Anastassia Grigorieva.
Joe Raso (25:18):
She's done a fantastic job
on, on illustrating these creatures.
They look appropriately
horrendously disgusting.
Um,
Lucas (25:26):
awful and I hate them.
And that is a high compliment.
how do I find Grim Hollow?
Joe Raso (25:36):
That's a great question
and you'd think I would've prepared.
Um, so, Ghostfires website has a store
on it where you're able to they have for
sale both the, this monster grimoire and
the, the campaign and player guides that
sort of flesh out the world as well.
Lucas (25:55):
If someone wants to get in touch
with you specifically and what you
do on web and who you are and how you
think about things, how do they do that?
Joe Raso (26:04):
Probably the best way to
do that is follow me on Twitter.
My handles at underscore Joe
underscore Raso, R a S O.
I have a, a blog that
I'm horribly behind on.
I think for a while I was, doing
it once a month, but it's been a
number of months since I've done it.
That's scheming DM, wordpress.com
(26:24):
is the, the full if you type the
scheming DM, you, you probably find it.
Um, but yeah, Twitter's probably the best
way to, to get hold of my crazy thoughts.
As the adventurers walk
down the dark stairwell they notice
scrabbling sounds coming from perhaps
within the walls themselves and
in the darkness, there's movement
stirring in the bottom of the steps.
You see forms slowly coming into focus,
which are small worm like creatures and,
(00:23):
for many in, your group, there's probably
a bit of a revulsion cuz it reminds you
of centipedes that writhe together and
start flowing up the steps towards you.
Lucas (00:35):
Welcome to Making a Monster,
the bite-sized podcast where game
designers show us their favorite
monster and we discover how it works,
why it works, and what it means.
I'm Lucas Zellers.
Monsters are often
simply a matter of scale.
Many of nature's most perfect
predators are simply too small to
be any threat to humans, and some of
(00:56):
history's most famous monsters are
those too big for what we perceive
as their place in the natural order.
Designer Joe Raso showed his keen eye for
how this works in the context of D&D with
his aberrant insect harbinger, the mukad.
So Joe, your title has changed a
couple of times since I've known you.
Joe Raso (01:17):
My official title right now is
writing coordinator for Ghostfire Games.
That was effective as of.
Wow end of March this year.
Prior to that, I started doing freelance
writing for a bunch of RPG folks.
I guess I went full time
in July of that last year.
(01:38):
Before that I was just doing my
own work on DMS Guild, in addition
to my day job, so to speak.
But I'm, I'm fully vested in the
whole RPG space at this point.
Lucas (01:50):
I think you and I we're sort
of in each other's orbit circa 2019.
And I, I think back in December, we
had talked about getting you on the
podcast for the Dunwood project.
Dunwood is a forest in D&D's Forgotten
Realms setting that feels a lot like
Tolkien's Mirkwood or the balanced
growth and decay of the green-black
(02:10):
Witherbloom College of magic in Magic
the Gathering's Strixhaven University.
In real-world terms, this would be
an old-growth forest, a term coined
in the 1940s to describe the later
stages of stand development with truly
massive trees, multiple canopy layers
blocking the sun, and a forest floor
covered in large dead woody material.
(02:33):
These are forests that feel more like
oceans, and the oldest of them sheltered
the last vestiges of Ice Age megafauna
like bush-antlered deer and dire wolves.
In lore, Dunwood is a part of
a region called the Great Dale.
Joe Raso (02:48):
The first big effort that I did
was, um, The Great Dale Campaign Guide.
It's a, a Forgotten Realms source book.
It was sort of paying homage to
a third edition production, um,
that I really loved called, um,
Why the heck, I can't remember the
(03:08):
name of the production right now.
Oh, the, the Unapproachable East.
I got a suggestion to reach out to
some other folks and me building a
little source guide, um, expansion to
bring things up to fifth edition, over
period of two or three weeks exploded.
12 authors or 10 authors.
(03:29):
I can't remember the number I had,
um, and a a hundred plus source book
that, that I ended up producing.
Um, my first real effort
that big, it was it.
I really shouldn't have done it,
cuz it was, it was way too way
too large, but it was a fantastic.
Learning experience for me.
(03:49):
So that was, that was the first big one.
Lucas (03:51):
Joe's work on Dunwood and
other projects over the past few years
led him to become a contributor for
the 5th edition setting Grim Hollow.
Joe Raso (03:58):
Grim Hollow is a grimdark
sort of horror based campaign
that Ghostfire games has produced.
And I felt astoundingly,
astoundingly, astoundingly, lucky.
Um, when Sean me Merwin asked if I'd
like to contribute a bunch of monsters
to the to this monster book that
(04:20):
they're creating for that setting,
Lucas (04:22):
Oh, so this is
in progress right now.
Joe Raso (04:24):
It it's in delivery actually.
Yeah, I, I did the actual
writing for this last.
Oh, what was it?
in the June, June, July timeframe
is when I, when I was working on,
on these Grim Hollow creatures.
And I think the, the products are
actually showing up in people's
doorsteps in the last month or so.
(04:45):
So I haven't got my hard copy yet, but
I've, I've, I've seen the seen the,
the PDF, which is pretty fantastic.
Lucas (04:53):
You've dropped a buzzword and
I'm all about breaking those apart
and figuring out what that means.
What does grimdark mean to you,
especially in the context of what
Grim Hollow is trying to do and be?
Joe Raso (05:03):
For me, grimdark means stories
that fear and dread are a key component
and the survival of the heroes is not
necessarily guaranteed as opposed to
uh, heroic fantasy where, um, you're,
(05:24):
you're dealing with giant threats and
ultimately you expect the heroes to,
to survive in the end victoriously.
Um, in, in a grimdark setting.
I, I don't think that's the assumption.
I, I think it's, we hope that
they'll get through whatever terrible
onslaught that they're going through.
Um, but it's, it's perilous might be the
good, the correct word to use for that.
(05:46):
Um, overwhelming.
Bad stuff is, is maybe
the, the simpler way.
Lucas (05:54):
Yeah, What I've heard from people
who have played older editions is that
they have somewhat of a more adversarial
relationship between player and DM and
mechanics and character than fifth edition
does such that fifth edition is kind
of, kinder to, to player characters.
It leans more into the heroic
fantasy element of this.
Does that jive with your experience?
(06:16):
And do you think Grim Hollow
might be a return to that sort
of attitude from older editions?
Joe Raso (06:21):
Possibly that that
might be a nice way to look at it.
I, I, I think the earlier editions, it
was the, the game was still being figured
out by everybody, in my opinion, um, where
you, it was the first time you, you had
these role playing games available to the
(06:41):
public, to purchase and, and play with.
And it was such a different or
change to what, um, everybody
had experienced up to that point.
I mean, I I'd played risk.
I'd played all the typical board games.
So to actually play a game that
didn't have a board on it, um, was
a bit of a leap for, for most folks.
And I think whenever you go into
(07:01):
something new, you, you hold onto
pieces of things that you understand.
And in all those board games, it's
usually a person versus a person.
So I could see the default assumption
being the, the dungeon master against
the players as here's your challenge.
I'm trying to defeat you
and the, the players.
Okay.
We're gonna try to, to overcome that.
So I, I can see how a grimdark theme
(07:24):
might echo some of that same setup.
Um, and yeah, I agree in, in the.
The more modern game of fifth edition,
the storytelling bit is much, um,
greater piece of it where, you're
looking to see how can I get my group
to play a fun and exciting story and
(07:45):
get them through it and engaged There's
almost always combat involved depending
on your group, obviously, but, um,
it's, that shared group experience.
Whereas in the earlier
days, I, I saw it as, yeah.
We're gonna try to get through this
thing and hopefully the DM won't kill us.
Um,
Lucas (08:04):
When we're talking
about Grim Hollow is there kind
of a hook for this setting?
Is there a thing that is peculiar
to the way that this works?
A thing that makes Grim Hollow what it is?
Joe Raso (08:15):
It's very much a dark setting
the gods have somewhat disappeared
because of a terrible that's gone on.
So there's, their surrogates have kind
of tried to pick up the mantle, but, um,
overall the, the world itself is in a, a
terrible state where I think fear and just
(08:37):
survival are a key aspect of this setting.
They've got a lot of different uh,
regions that explore certain areas.
Like there's a, a vampire controlled
area and sort of, rougher savage northern
Viking ish type region along with others.
But in general, the, the world itself
is, is a, a dreadful, scary place.
Lucas (08:59):
Let's talk about one of
the monsters that you've made.
Okay.
Pronounce this for me.
If you can, the mukad?
Joe Raso (09:05):
Yeah, in my head I pronounced
it mukad, but, um, mukad sounds fantastic.
Um,
Lucas (09:11):
Well, we're going with authorial
intent because you happen to be here.
So.
Joe Raso (09:14):
Well, clearly mukad, if
you don't get it, you're you're uh,
no I've, accepted that, um, all the
fantasy names and words that I've
read for the last 20 or 30 years.
The, the way it sounds in my
head is not the way most other
people would pronounce it.
Um, and so I'm quite happy for people to
come up with their own interpretations.
Lucas (09:37):
Do you know why that is?
Is that just a quirk of the genre or?
Joe Raso (09:40):
I, I, I don't know.
I, I don't know if it's the genre.
I don't know if it's my own background.
Um, I, I suspect it's probably
a combination of both.
Both my parents are Hungarian, actually.
You'd think that with the name
Raso is, is Italian, but, um,
my both folks are from there.
And so I, when I write often I,
I'm trying to come up with a, a, a
(10:03):
strange fantasy name and I'll, I'll
think of a, sort of a Hungarian term.
And I realize I can't actually translate
the sound properly because there's
certain vowels or consonants that don't
translate into English terribly well.
Um, so that's probably the same thing
what happened with, with this name?
Lucas (10:20):
That's fantastic.
Joe Raso (10:21):
Well, yeah, I mean, I've
seen many times people suggest
using Google translate to take
a, a word from one language and
shove it into the, to another.
I kind of use my vague understanding of
Hungarian to, oh, well, how Hungarian
language speakers that might read my work
and go, oh, that's, that's almost like,
would dad say, that thing and then I'll
(10:45):
sort of twist the, the letters around.
It's the cheat that I do when I'm writing.
When Sean originally asked me to
contribute monsters, one of the things
he was hoping for was more urban based
creatures that would threaten players.
So I was trying to think of creatures
that could sort of scrabble away in
(11:07):
the darkness of some large building,
like somehow how hidden in the walls.
There's a, there's these unnatural
beasts that are, are scheming in the
darkness and you better not go down
that dark place, cuz uh, they'll decide
to use you to, to some nefarious end.
Lucas (11:25):
I had in the house that I
grew up with an unfinished basement,
so like cold rock walls and.
I think you've nailed it.
Like that is the feeling that I get
here of there are grubs in the walls.
I mean like this is D and D
so these aren't just grubs.
Joe Raso (11:43):
Of course not.
Lucas (11:44):
Uh, what makes this different,
what is, what makes a mukad what it is?
Joe Raso (11:49):
One of the, I guess the concepts
for the, setting is the Ather kindred.
It's this very esque villain
godlike creature in the
background that slumbers away.
Um, and people dread the time
that it'll awaken and come back
and devastate the land again.
Um, so I figured, well just because
the master god or whatever, this
(12:12):
giant beast entity is, is slumbering
doesn't mean his foot soldiers
aren't doing something currently.
So I wanted to create a tier one challenge
that would start to pull in some of that.
Um, I guess C'thulhu-esque feel of
a strange unknown entity that could
potentially overwhelm or, or hurt
(12:34):
the, the populace at large is kind
of where I was coming from with it.
Lucas (12:38):
What makes them
good at filling that role?
Joe Raso (12:40):
I think a tunneling aspect
where they, they could hide through,
um, the walls and, and, um, be hidden in
sort of public, um, structures per se.
The attacks of these monsters are
sort of psychically charged where
they're they unleash bursts of energy
(13:01):
that, um, will stun or paralyze the
victims that they're going to use.
I think I had the larger one, be somewhat
more intelligent than you would expect for
a, from a sort of centipede-like creature.
Lucas (13:15):
yeah.
Intelligence 10,
Joe Raso (13:17):
So just an average.
Lucas (13:19):
yeah.
but still like, this is a
full on sapient being.
Joe Raso (13:24):
Yes.
Yeah.
And so that was the, the idea to have this
animalistic thing but smart enough that
it would be able to stare you in the eyes.
Lucas (13:34):
So let's talk about why we
had to make a suite of these things
because one of the fundamental truths
of Dungeons and Dragons and most role
playing games is that characters, i.e.
heroes, level up and monsters do not.
You just fight bigger and bigger monsters.
So this is, it reads as though
(13:56):
you have laid these out in
the order of their life cycle.
Is that fair to say?
Joe Raso (14:01):
Yeah, I think so.
For me the life cycle, wasn't,
they're either larva or they
transform into the whatever creature.
I, I was thinking of insects in
terms of, you know, how an ant colony
might be managing their brood.
They have eggs and then they become grubs.
And then the grubs eventually
transform into the more adult form.
When I was thinking about this,
(14:23):
I thought, okay, I'll have these,
these larval grubs then the
transformed versions of them with.
Depending on their specialization,
they would have different capabilities.
One might be stronger than another.
And, and then the big master progenitor
that's actually creating all the little,
little bugs, um, would be the, the,
(14:43):
the one that's toughest to take on.
I, I want to make sure that all of
the more sort of a, a tier one threat.
I almost feel like there's not enough
tier one threats that really can
scare, um, creatures or parties.
I wanted a whole suite.
So if a, a DM created a, a set of
adventures that they'd have enough
of a toolbox that they could create,
(15:04):
you know, a first encounter where, oh,
what the heck are these little things?
And then, then slowly the, the
adventures would follow the, the clues
and discover where the, the source
of the infestation actually was.
Lucas (15:16):
Yeah, this is a really classic
storytelling structure that you have
coded into this series of stat blocks
I mean, my favorite example is Bruce
Lee's I think it was Game of Death where
he started at the bottom of this tower
and he fought his way up to the top.
Only you've done it in reverse that
you start in the basement and then
(15:36):
you work your way lower and lower
to the terrible truth at the bottom.
Joe Raso (15:40):
It's such a common trope that
it's, if you can set the pieces up for DMS
to use, then it makes their job easier.
As a game designer, that's.
That's what I'm trying to do is give
all the tools to let someone at their
own table, make the game that they want.
Um, and so if you have a lot of
options, then you, there's a bunch
of different ways that you can, can
(16:00):
approach the game for your own table.
Cause every table's different,
somebody just wants to.
Go head first at the big bad guy.
And let's, don't worry about the
lead up, whereas others love that
slow uncovering of the truth and,
and figuring out what the mystery is.
So I wanted to make sure that you
could play it however you wished.
Lucas (16:18):
So anytime you say C'thulhu I have
to do another like buzzword thing wherein.
I call it the Lovecraft protocol
that even for his time, Lovecraft
was a problematic person.
And the genre that he created has far
exceeded his personal ideology in order to
create something that I think people are,
are using to find a lot of truth and make
(16:41):
some really interesting statements about
the way the world does and should work.
Was that part of your design
scheme or did that just sort of
happen when you created the mukad?
Does this tell you anything about the way
the world works when you work through it?
Joe Raso (16:55):
Um, C'thulhu has a whole
bunch of baggage left for, for sure.
But it's, it's a shorthand from a
design perspective in that, for me,
it's, it's this unknowable, evil
that can't be understood, even if you
try and if you try then it's likely
gonna cause you grief in the end.
(17:15):
And probably the demise of whoever is
trying to understand whatever that is.
Um, and I guess I wanted
these beasties to be similar.
They're this thing that you
as humans or humanoids can
never really fully understand.
You just know that they have
(17:37):
intentions that are associated with
this evil monstrosity that's caused
horror havoc in the world already.
So if you come across them, it's not
terribly ambiguous in terms of, is
this a humanoid with good intentions?
This is a big nasty that has no moral
compass that's gonna challenge whether
(17:59):
or not what you're doing is correct.
And I mean, that's the easy
way to how do I say this?
Um, I think there's a, a challenge, um,
particularly , in the modern game where
we're realizing that there's so many nasty
nasty is the wrong word, but ill-advised
(18:19):
approaches to how, um, creatures and
threats are presented in the game itself.
Um, and.
Sometimes you just want to play the game
and not have to be in a moral quandary
of am I really presenting this correctly?
And so I wanted to make sure that the
creature, the threat you presented
(18:39):
here is unquestionably something
that you could go up against.
Um, I don't know if the, I
answered your question there
Lucas (18:46):
No, absolutely.
For me, part of the magic of the
show is grappling with some of
those questions and figuring out,
like, is it a monster really?
And who's the, you know, it's,
it's a very old kind of subversion.
To the point that subverting it is.
You know, it's wrapping
around back on itself.
But I have had a lot of people
talk about, you know, the role
of catharsis in this game.
(19:06):
And just being able to say, very clearly
this is wrong and we're gonna stop it.
And the value that that has
for a player experience.
Assuming that the mukad have their way
and nothing stops them, what happens?
Joe Raso (19:22):
What happens?
Uh, They will do whatever mystical
scribblings in the darkness that these
unnatural beings do and help bring about
the, the Ather kindred again, which is
that slumbering unknowable evil beast that
had previously destroyed their gods and
(19:43):
created the terrible setting as it was.
So it's almost like, if you don't stop
these guys, then the already grimdark
setting might, might get worse.
Lucas (19:55):
Any of these attacks or features
or traits that you were particularly
proud of that resonated with people
who play tested this or, or other
designers that you worked on it with?
Joe Raso (20:05):
I like the thematic way that
I've woven some of the bits in here,
cuz I was trying to replicate, um, real
world creatures a little bit where you've
got insects that, oh, they've a spider
has trapped some insect for it to devour
it doesn't do it right away it sort of
(20:27):
paralyzes it and webs it in some coating
to, to ingest that it's leisure later on.
So it, I mean, I wanted that
sort of disgusting kinda, um,
feel for these creatures as well.
Like something where it's using you to,
um, propagate itself and it doesn't care
what's suffering or whatever is gonna
(20:48):
happen to the creature that it's captured.
So the progenitor has this etheric
incubation, um, ability where it
takes a paralyzed creature and wraps
it in a cocoon and basically injects
it with, little bug worms that
erupt somewhat later to, to devour
whoever the poor and fortunate, um,
(21:09):
beast is inside it kind of thing.
So I, I kind of like that, that it,
it, it replicates sort of things that
actually happen in the small insect
world that we have, but kind of blown
up to the, the heroic challenges
that, that players are gonna face.
Lucas (21:27):
It goes from a swarm of
tiny creatures to the mukad
progenitor, a large aberration,
lawful evil, interesting choice.
Alignment has become a tricky
subject since the so-called Tasha
apocalypse back in December of 21.
So, just out of curiosity, did you have
any conversations about alignment here
(21:48):
or, or any sort of deliberate way of what
how to represent these guys that way?
Joe Raso (21:55):
Um, no, I, I, I don't, I don't
remember having any discussions on the
design of related to the alignment bit.
For me it was, um, trying to
describe the creature, um,
in terms of how it functions.
And I, I saw it very much as a group
entity, it's this, this swarm of beasts.
(22:18):
So they're, they're following
the directions of the, the
big, bad progenitor guy.
They're not following individual
aims or, or doing some choice
that furthers their own direction.
It's the, whatever the big beastie
says is what the entire swarm
infestation is trying to accomplish.
So that's kind of the lawful bit for me
(22:39):
is that, that ordered decision making
the fact that there's someone at the top
describing what's going on and the, the
followers doing that to their ability.
The evil bit is that, Hey, they're,
they're not really caring what their
actions do to others around them.
There is no, um, sort of
(23:00):
moral compass for them.
They're just following this, this
evil plan to bring back their,
their a or kindred over overlord
or whatever the, the beast is.
Lucas (23:10):
Fantastic.
Yeah.
I'm always trying to get to the bottom
of how useful that alignment chart is.
And this is a good example.
Joe Raso (23:17):
Yeah, I think it's
just, it's, it's a tool.
Anything that you use in a D&D
game, I would hope DMs feel
comfortable on throwing out the
window if they don't like it.
so for me, it's, shorthand to say,
okay, how does this monster work
and what are the intentions of it.
And I think the recent, um, 5E sort of
(23:39):
style design choices that they've made
with newer things by saying usually, or
I can't remember the actual words that
they they have in terms of the, the
alignment, um, perspective, um, is, is
I think helpful for some people that.
May maybe are newer to the game.
I think if, if you've played the
game for a while you realize,
(23:59):
um, all rules are optional.
Um,
Lucas (24:03):
Yeah, you always
had that permission.
Joe Raso (24:06):
Yeah, but I, completely
understand why WotC's kind of going
down the, the path they are is it's.
How do you make the game as accessible
as you can to, to new folks coming in?
So you do that by giving him guidance
if they, they haven't had that before.
So I, have no issue with the way that
the, the alignment's being presented.
Lucas (24:24):
Thanks for listening
to Making a Monster.
If you like what you've heard and you
want to support the show, please share
it with the people you play games with.
I'm approaching 50 episodes covering
monsters from all over the tabletop RPG
map, so there is something for everyone.
Your recommendation goes a long
way to letting people trust me with
their time and attention, and it's
a way to start great conversations
(24:46):
about why we play the games we do
and why they mean so much to us.
You can also join the show's email
subscriber list to get extra bonuses like
the stat blocks for the mukad family tree
and other monsters featured on the show.
It's a great addition to any campaign,
and a fascinating introduction
to the Ether Kindred and the
(25:06):
Grim Hollow campaign setting.
Just go to scintilla dot studio
slash monster or follow the link in
the description to get your copy of
these monsters from the Grim Hollow,
with art by Anastassia Grigorieva.
Joe Raso (25:18):
She's done a fantastic job
on, on illustrating these creatures.
They look appropriately
horrendously disgusting.
Um,
Lucas (25:26):
awful and I hate them.
And that is a high compliment.
how do I find Grim Hollow?
Joe Raso (25:36):
That's a great question
and you'd think I would've prepared.
Um, so, Ghostfires website has a store
on it where you're able to they have for
sale both the, this monster grimoire and
the, the campaign and player guides that
sort of flesh out the world as well.
Lucas (25:55):
If someone wants to get in touch
with you specifically and what you
do on web and who you are and how you
think about things, how do they do that?
Joe Raso (26:04):
Probably the best way to
do that is follow me on Twitter.
My handles at underscore Joe
underscore Raso, R a S O.
I have a, a blog that
I'm horribly behind on.
I think for a while I was, doing
it once a month, but it's been a
number of months since I've done it.
That's scheming DM, wordpress.com
(26:24):
is the, the full if you type the
scheming DM, you, you probably find it.
Um, but yeah, Twitter's probably the best
way to, to get hold of my crazy thoughts.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.